January 31, 2006

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll-free across the United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three Three three four one and now with today's topic.

Here is James white.

Hey, good morning, welcome to the dividing line further evidence of the utter degradation of Western society. Out fresh today of course the first Thing I heard this morning when you turn on the news was the the cowboy love story.

That's not what it is, of course but the The story of how you can destroy marriages and lives. But if you if you if you use the camera angles just right and the proper music you can focus people's emotions So that they don't see the devastation of lives all around the central characters.

Got eight Academy Award nods this morning, which approves beyond all shadow of a doubt. Especially when you look at all the pictures that were nominated for Best Picture that Hollywood has no connection whatsoever to the rest of us to regular old Americans that are out here and What what an amazing?

Self congratulatory pat on the back and a fulfillment of Romans chapter 1. Which speaks of the fact that those who know what God's ordinances are not only encourage others In their sin, but say come on along.

Come on. Let's let's all do it together. Cultural decay is a is a matter of sin and the heart what an amazing Amazing story to to wake up to this morning, but not overly surprising. I was queuing up various and sundry Clips here and I I'm switching from music programs on my computer.

I have finally just absolutely blown a complete fuse and I'm going to be removing the program that I've been using for many years. I am very much looking forward to the day when I am able to go to the control panel and delete it forever.

When it came on my daughter's computer her new computer. They got her it was there and with her great approval I really enjoyed one of the first things I did was open up the control panel and deleting it forever in a day from that computer, but in that process of setting up a new program to take its place I Ran across you know it runs around your entire hard drive which these days are very very large hard drives and grabs everything.

That's a that's a audio file at all even if it really isn't something that you'd be interested in listening to while Riding or jogging or whatever and in the process it tracked down a Little 45-second clip that I've played in the past many moons ago.

It is a radio clip from a radio program Took place as I recall in either San Diego or Los Angeles. I think San Diego Christian radio station I think on The subject of Mormonism. Bill McKeever was the Christian representative and dr. Daniel C Peterson of Brigham Young University was the Mormon participant, and I think this is about four years ago now if I recall correctly and the issue of theosis the idea of divinization came up and If you've read Is the Mormon my brother you know that there's an entire chapter in there on the subject of what the early church Believed in regards to the subject of men becoming gods and and so on and so forth and So I I Don't know I've played this we've we've Tried to use it to get dr. Peterson to do what he said he'd do here.

But the closest we've ever gotten is him having his wife Call back and say no. Thank you, but it's a fascinating little clip. It gives you the real a real contrast between what people will say and then what they will will do since I tracked it down I thought I'd just start off by Reminding us of this little little incident from a few years ago on believe San Diego LA of Southern Southern, California somewhere This is this is what happened one thing that was brought up.

Is this idea that the early church fathers believe that men can become God you know arms has been putting this information out for a long? Time and it has been responded to on several occasions probably the most recent was in Richard offlings book Mormon America an excellent book on the subject and.

And he quotes various Orthodox Eastern Orthodox Leaders on this subject and they all agree that the Mormon position is not at all what the early church fathers believed. James White did an excellent expose of this in his book.

Is the Mormon my brother. I mean this has already been Responded to and the fact that they keep bringing this up regardless of the fact is just amazing to me. Well, I would say we keep bringing it up because it's true and I'd be willing to go ahead go head-to-head with any of those people on this issue any day of the week.

The last word there was weak. And we've offered for dr. Peterson to do that. Evidently any day of the week does not include Mondays Tuesdays Wednesdays Thursdays Friday Saturday for Sunday at least whenever we're trying to arrange a Debate because as I said we've attempted any day, but today, that's correct.

We have attempted. Repeatedly we even sent him this clip even send him the audio file this clip so he could hear himself saying it. Remember you you did say this and all we've been able to get back was a Phone call from his wife.

Saying that he he he was not interested in doing that so I I ran across that and found that to be rather rather interesting that That was still Still hiding on the old hard drive there so anyway eight seven seven seven five three three three four one.

For those of you who wonder why haven't you debated? You know some of those folks well We believe me we have tried the folks up in Salt Lake did we had a series going? But there was very clearly a decision made on the part of The leading LDS apologists that we are not going to participate in this we are we are not going to participate in defending our faith.

In Salt Lake City itself, let's do it someplace else. I guess I don't know but anyhow eight seven seven seven five three three Three four one we're going to continue with some of the other Reviews we have been doing and taking your phone calls and in fact the phone lines have already lit up and let's Run up to Colorado and talk to Patrick.

Hi Patrick. Hey, how you doing? Dr. White done good.

I got a question for you. I'm just finishing up a class on the canon of Scripture, and I'm looking at taking another class on the history of the Bible. I heard you speak on the subject in the master series in Christian thought withstand a reason.

And I was wondering for your professional opinion the class that I'm looking at Taking it uses the books of see the King James Version debate a plea for realism by da Carson the inclusive language debate plea for realism by da Carson and the journey from text to translations the origin and development of the Bible by Paul Wagner.

And I was wondering a Kind of a question on are these good books to use regarding this history of the Bible. Is there any points in these that I should keep my ears open for my eyes open for to look out for and also?

Do you have any suggestions on books that I should get to supplement these with my study?

Well, there's obviously a lot of material on that. I was under the impression that the Carson book went out of print a long time ago. I'm I'm a little surprised unless they just happen to have a big stock of it hanging around.

Basically my understanding was that when I put my book out on that subject that's uh since Carson's book had come out in 79 right that he had taken it op out of print because he was more than happy to have somebody else taking all the all the live ammo.

That his direction rather than my direction rather than his direction, so I was I'm a little surprised That's actually still available, but anyway I was fine little book and obviously doesn't go into a whole lot of detail because only like 120 pages long, but no, I Obviously there are other perspectives than just da Carson's I mean Carson does a fairly decent job Giving both sides of an argument anyway, and so you know have a problem there.

I am only marginally familiar with the third book you mentioned, so I really can't give any comment on it. There's lots and lots of excellent stuff. Unfortunately a lot of it is focused upon Particular aspects not just not just overall stuff overall treatments tend to be somewhat Somewhat basic and surface level and so issues concerning transmission.

That's one issue translations another issue, and there's lots and lots of stuff being written on that subject right now just look at all the stuff that's been generated by the TN IV debate and and materials regarding gender inclusive city and boundaries thereof and la la la there's All sorts of stuff like that out there.

Depends on the level of the class as to how deeply you want to get into stuff. You know I mean Just this morning. I posted a blog article that was only I don't know. You know I just realized I probably didn't cut that thing no I did cut in half never mind I also I started realizing.

Oh, no, I bet you that things taking up the entire front page right now. It's only a few paragraphs long and yet it took quite some time Just to do that those few paragraphs because I had to check so much Background material, and you know where do you go to get that kind of background material?

What are the critical editions of the Greek New Testament? How can you get hold of them? Where can you track them down? You know there's there's all sorts of stuff like that and in anything that's published today.

Unfortunately you really are going to have to be very discerning in finding out where the person is coming from as to Their actual view of the nature of Scripture itself it is so sadly unusual today to find very many people who have a truly High view of Scripture in regards to what Scripture really is and its authority.

I don't care where you go you have to be very very discerning and you have to listen very carefully and read very carefully as to Exactly where someone's coming from and whether what you're reading and your interpretation of it is actually Fair.

I mean, it's sometimes we read things into into stuff that we shouldn't be reading into it, so you know. Are you taking it from the same person who taught the last class? I mean, I'd be interested in what what books were used for the canon class.

Oh, we use the. Yeah, I I think I would I would recommend to you if you get a chance to do so. You know those books are very good for providing what I would call a Backwards look at the canon that is looking back at it through history on From one perspective, but I've I've been very disappointed in the vast majority of books on the subject of the canon because they don't I think do justice to the theological aspect.

Which since we're talking about I mean you can't discuss the canon without being theological and yet the vast majority of them are very much Historical it's like well. This is how the early church looked at it.

Well the early church first of all wasn't a unanimous body of people and they used all sorts of different standards. And where'd they get those standards, and I? Think that just leads to all sorts of confusion in regards to the canon personally you end up.

I think either having to embrace some kind of authority for tradition and and Where does that come from and how does that relate to the ultimate authority of Scripture? And there's all sorts of issues that come up along those lines.

I addressed the issue of the canon in Scripture alone, and I tried to do so first and foremost from a theological Perspective and recognizing the purpose of Scripture. Why does God give Scripture the Scripture even say?

Why God gives Scripture and if in point of fact it does? Then How do we? Then understand the issue of a process being involved in the recognition of Scripture and is there a difference between the canon as as an artifact of inspiration and the canon as something that that you Then have to have recognized functionally within the church.

And what what effort would God put forward for example to make sure that people would be able to know? What is Scripture and what is not Scripture and so on and so forth so there's all sorts of issues?

I think to go along that direction and on an apologetic level. I think it's very very important to see that in fact I'm going to be speaking on that subject at London seminary in just a couple of well actually about two weeks.

On the issue of the canon because it's pretty rare to have that kind of presentation made on it, so yeah, there's all sorts of More in-depth materials that you can obtain a lot of them are becoming available Electronically if you're if you're really into that kind of thing you don't want to have shelves full full of books librarnix and The librarnix library system is coming up with all sorts of stuff like that, but still last night to check for example Bart Ehrman's claim that there were multiple manuscripts with a particular variant of John 2028.

I wasn't I I used one computer program everything else was the plain old get out the get out the books and And dig through them and and know what you're looking at type of a type of a situation and those aren't the most popular books.

But they're the ones that really help you out. I I had. And this one's a really expensive one. I had to track down the Allens Listing of all the New Testament manuscripts. It's only in German, but still very usable though Germans a good thing to know as well and You know actually you'd be amazed at the amount of information you would get just reading and coming to understand and doing a little practice with the Preface to both the UBS 4th and Nestle on 27th editions of the Greek New Testament.

Just reading that reading Metzger's introduction to the to the manuscripts of the Greek New Testament. He has a real bigs almost table talks table talk with tabletop size book that has pictures of the various manuscripts and getting an idea for example of the difference between olive and a and B and the Codex Bezicatabrigensis.

And why it's so weird and all that kind of stuff can really really help you out especially when you start getting in transmissional issues concerning textual variants and and Things like that so all of that is is Available, it's out there.

It's not the most popular stuff. You're not going to find it's rivaling the prayer of Jabez on the CBA bestsellers list, but it's far better to have on the on the bookshelf these days than anything else and so.

You have a favorable favorable opinion on da Carson then. And oh yeah, I mean no one agrees with anybody 100 of time.

But you know he he's going to give you a lot of he's very careful with his with his facts. And you know in fact interestingly enough so is Bart Ehrman. But he's wrong in his conclusions the vast majority of time so one of the great skills that you have to get out of your education is learning to utilize sources written by people that you disagree with for example the the blast blast of Brunner funk Greek Sonia's side of the room behind a door so I can't see right now.

There's a there's a Greek grammar that Robert Funk edited and translated. That's Robert Funk of the Jesus seminar well Robert Funk's a fine translator and a fine editor. You know I mean that one of the things that scares me is sometimes Evangelicals because they disagree with somebody on something they won't even won't even look at someone's book because of that well You have to learn to be discerning and so you know Bart Ehrman is very careful to be accurate in What he states, it's what he doesn't state.

That's the problem and so when you're looking at so much of especially what's written today. I'm sorry There's this if it's written today. It's what's missing that you have to fill in with some of the older stuff.

And that's that's where so many people today sort of lose their footing is is in a lack of discernment in Having a good solid foundation, and so it's very easy to push people off into Into odd directions because they don't have a good solid foundation.

I saw that when I was in when I was in seminary myself. I would see people come in and I thought when they first started attending classes that they had a Fairly decent idea of where they were where they were going where they were coming from what they believed by the time they graduated.

They had a master's of divinity degree in confusion. I mean I remember this one particular fellow. Just sad he was he was a real nice guy. But he should never have gone to a seminary because he was considerably more orthodox and useful.

When he first started attending classes then by the time he had a master's degree because that by that point He just threw his hands up in the air, and it's like you know there's so much disagreement there's so many different perspectives who is to really know and Once you'd once you lose confidence in the clarity of God's revelation all you have left is is to start thrashing around looking for various isms and and programs.

To take up your time because you haven't really nothing left to say you don't have any Authority for proclamation you can't say God has said this. I don't personally know why most liberals are involved in their churches because it's a sort of like Religious social clubs don't don't don't really excite me very much.

I don't seem like a place. I'd want to be going on a regular basis, but that way so. Yeah, you got it. You got to Get that those foundational things taken care of first and and when you do so you can look at the a Carson the guy's brilliant.

I don't know how he he has a real knack for seeing What movements are coming before they really hit hit the big time so that you know he was? Pretty early on in the emergent church stuff and pretty early on the new perspective stuff and and You know sometimes you listen to what he says about something go.

Not sure about the application there but normally when it comes to just the factual material you're gonna be able to take the facts and the key to being a successful student in seminary Bible college is being able to discern between what is a fact and What is a conclusion drawn from that fact that may not be drawn?

Accurately from the facts that may be ignoring certain aspects that would then change the result of the of the investigation, so that's. You know that's why you can use the ten volumes set of Kittles the Theological Dictionary in the New Testament written by a bunch of raving liberal Germans and Read three sentences and get two sentences worth of good information out of it as long as you recognize the one-third of it.

That is coming from a completely different worldview has nothing to do with the facts. And it's just misinterpretation of the facts based upon an unbiblical worldview. But the data is still good. Liberals are good at mining data.

Sometimes conservatives aren't it's a matter of learning how to use that kind of stuff and putting in the end of the rights the right Categories that really really gets you going.

Okay, okay, all right. Appreciate all right info all right. Thanks a lot.

Eight seven seven seven five three three three four. One is the phone number. Getting a fair number of phone calls this morning and I guess we're gonna just do the Bible answer man thing here because whenever Johnny calls That's what you get is just something out of the blue.

No one knows what Johnny's ever thinking about. Do we Johnny? Not usually. No no and sadly. I'm not sure that Johnny normally knows which. What's up, Johnny. It's going pretty good. Oh.

I don't know you guys found out about this at PRBC, but pastor Earl Blackburn. His last sermon with us at PRBC last Sunday. Yeah, yeah, I'm aware of that.

Yeah, in fact we read his letter that he sent out to everybody this past Lord's Day, I think in the evening service.

Okay, it was a very teary-eyed night on Sunday, and I was At PRBC in the morning, and he did the Sunday school and He preached on the last word of Samuel found in 2nd Samuel I'm sorry the last words of David in 2nd Samuel chapter 23.

And I was listening, but he reads from the new spotted a difference in translation. I wanted to check into that I was. I looked on the net Bible Which has like a million footnotes, and I looked at other New American Standard Bible Which is the one I usually use and I didn't see a footnote of whether or not there was a textual variant there.

Or what the deal is but in the New King James It reads in verse 5 God and pastor Earl when he preached on this he made this as a point of humility. It was a very new American Standard Bible. It actually forgot.

It's actually a Quest. No, I've never looked at it.

Looking at the various translations here verily my house is not so with God as ASV for does not my house stand so with God ESV for so shall not mine house be with God. The Jewish Publication Society which is normally a decent translation the Old Testament for is not my house established with God.

New American Standard truly is not my house. So with God any tea my dynasty is approved by God. I I use the NET sometimes in the New Testament, but I do not use its Old Testament. It's it's pretty whacked.

NIV is not my house right with God. New Jerusalem. Yes, my house stands firm with God. New King James. Although my house is not so with God New Living Translation is not my family God has is it not my family God Has chosen.

That's interesting taking house to mean family, of course. And New Revised Standard is not my house like this with God so obviously there is a fair fairly wide variety of understandings of the Hebrew there.

I would have to Have my Hebrew text out and look for any variations which are not listed in Bible works. So Can't tell you don't know. I I suppose if I had you know half an hour to dig through the stuff that I could look for something like that, but on the fly there's No way to do so on the air by turning pages and going.

Okay, everybody just hold on. We'll play a little music here, you know type of thing. So I don't know.

When I was talking to my friend Because we both we started talking about it we started looking through some translations and such and It seems that the Dead Sea Scrolls they tend to have that translation.

I'm not sure if I got my names and everything all the information, right? But to my understanding the Old Testament that was used by the modern translators is the modern the Masoretic text.

Well the Masoretic there's not gonna there's almost there's almost no difference whatsoever between The 1525 Blomberg, which is a man any any Hebrew text is a Masoretic text basically, okay. So that's that's not going to be an issue there there's only like eight differences between the Biblia Hebraica stuttgart tensia and the Text was used under the King James and it would be the basis of the New King James, so no this would this would all be a translational issue.

As to how to specifically render the text it really the the differences in modern translations and Old Testament translation are almost always due to allowance for The septuagint to have a greater weight in the rendering than it did with the King James Translators now where exactly the New King James comes down on that Is is very very dependent.

Okay, since you did that I'm looking down here at the text and Yeah, there's some manuscripts. That's Yeah. Okay, there's there's one variant at the beginning of the verse between Two different forms that would Make a difference as to translation.

So probably if I looked up, you know commentaries in this on that subject That would be what they're focusing on The Septuagint the textual variant. Yeah, there's there's yeah, there's a few that go with that but That would have to be reflected in the septuagint and just glancing the septuagint here I don't see that that it is so I don't know that that's necessarily it it part of it is just rendering Whether it is not my house with God or is my house not with God.

It's depending on what you're negating and and how that fits fits together, but no never never heard a never heard a sermon on the subject never looked at it and Wouldn't wouldn't be able to give any more information in that.

Thing. Ever since the Bart Ehrman stuff started to come out a little more forward in the press and things like that. Have you now considered the possibility of challenging that guy to a debate? Well, I.

Imagine that's possibility. But I am booked through the entire year as far as debates are concerned. So it's not even something that's crossed the mind as far as trying to arrange it. I don't know if he does, you know, he's doing some little discussion on resurrection here and in March or something like that but You know folks folks throughout debate stuff all the time as if that just happens, you know.

Just like that and you're talking in some situations. You're talking ten fifteen twenty thousand dollars worth of investment. You're talking many many many many many many many months hundreds thousands of hours of man-hour Material going into it and so, you know people all the time.

So you need to write a book on this or you need to debate this person? I just I just chuckle because people have no Concept of the amount of time and effort that it takes to to do that kind of stuff and to do it, right?

So It would have to be in the proper venue. You have to have it properly recorded. You have to have the time ahead of time to do so you have to be able to come up with the money to do it, right. And so that's that's down the road and I certainly think that that is something that would be worthwhile, but exactly what it would be about and The the thesis and things like that.

I have no idea.

All right. Well, thank you very much and God bless bro. Thanks John. Bye. Bye.

Eight seven seven seven five three three three four one. That is an interesting interesting translational issue. Does look like the there is an age difference. Verily my house is not so with God. I'm not sure what that means.

Anyways, do you perfect house with you? But that's one that's the ASVs rendering of that one. That's that's odd. Anyhow, we continue on and. Actually, it looks like it's time to take our break. We'll take a next phone call after that maybe get back to some Ahmed D dot in the second half hour.

Eight seven seven. Seven five three three three four one. We'll be right back.

Nothing left right. A savior soul from death. It's all works righteousness, you know. Can I manufacture grace myself? Some religious place by weeping hard on your face.

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And welcome back to the dividing line. I was just looking looking up some material here. Unfortunately, I hit the button to open up this library and sat here for about Three-quarters of the commercial period just waiting for it to open a single program.

I'm Need to kick this computer. Anyways, yeah, I this particular translations is truly my house is right with God for he has given me an everlasting covenant and. They are looking at the same thing I was looking at here.

Yep. Okay. Yeah the The Translational issue is is key low this particular commentary says we have taken kilo as having it and a particular force. Some translators treat the expression as introducing a negative rhetorical question.

Is not my house, right? Yay does not my house and. So that that has some aspect to it there as far as the commentary is concerned. Specifically notes. Looking quickly here. The initial colon of the verse can be understood in more than one way as attested by the versions both ancient and modern.

We take it as a positive statement with Mettinger for instance regards. The whole verse is a rhetorical question kgv translates that although my house be not so with God. But this seems to be a less satisfactory rendering.

It is just possible at the whole verse they sort of parenthesis since it makes. Since it seems to separate the royal ideal from its negative counterpart in verses six through seven. So it is a translational issue what that generally means is when you're preaching you want to be aware of the various translations that are being used and.

Especially when it makes a major impact on the rendering of the text itself. And so you can see where some of the confusion comes from there anyways. Let's talk with Mike over in the LA area. Hi Mike.

Hey, Dr. White. How you doing? Doing good?

It's your eclectic caller again. Oh, yes, sir. I want to make two questions in a comment. First comment was um I did see the lacrosse and debate the light go dim. You did yes. You okay, why would did you said something like the light still shine in the darkness?

Okay, I you know there was a certain person in channel that that was responsible for that who wanted to know if you could actually See it, so I appreciate that information.

The other question was Eddie Delcor asked me to ask you yeah, did you still work out?

Good grief. Yes, I would imagine what he means by that is do I still lift weights? Yes, I I tried to To do that weekly, but I think what he's referring to is the fact that I'm back on the bike and I'm getting lots and lots of miles, and I'm trying in fact starting yesterday till a week from today.

Which is when? When we leave a week I leave for the UK week from tomorrow actually so a week from today is my last Last day of getting much done. I'm going to try to get 200 miles in Starting yesterday through through then which is a fair distance of riding and a couple metric centuries in there to to be able to do it.

So yeah, that's my emphasis right now is on that and Once you once you start riding like that you become you become an addict again, and you start getting really Freaked out when you don't get your miles in.

So I think I'm gonna be off the bike for for two weeks In the UK because it's not exactly riding weather In England right now. Then I'm trying to get a bunch of miles in now, so I won't feel completely guilty the whole time over there.

Okay, my last question. Yes, sir I'm also a student at Columbia Evangelical Seminary. Uh-huh. And some day. I hope to go under your mentorship. Ah, so you can start having a headache now. I've been studying on the John one one and Eddie's been trying to help me out with this.

And I'm you gotta be careful of Eddie. He's you know he's you know he's got his issues.

Looking at the verb pain uh-huh. Yeah, and I I'm trying to figure out. I mean, I have your books. I have many other books as well and go into this. I'm just trying to figure out. How did you find the meaning?

I know it's Eddie was telling me. It's a derivative of me. I think I mean I mean, but I don't. I'm looking at a mouse's books. I'm like where is this. Well.

It's not so much looking up a particular word as it is understanding the meanings that especially Exist in the verbal forms of the Greek language, and that's normally more of a discussion in second-year Greek that would be works like Wallace's second-year grammar or or the syntax issues because that's where you get into the various Forms of the words as far as their meaning when they are used in particular context so for example Discovering that that ain is the imperfect form of I me you understand what the imperfect means and The difference between the imperfect form of I mean the heiress for example of a genital both verbs of being and Then you you look at how that impacts the issue of creation if something comes into being at a point of time the propriety of using the heiress for that over against the imperfect which refers to ongoing action and then In this particular text you the key issue is the relationship of that imperfect form to the term arcade.

What is what is the arcade that is under that is in view here? What is this this beginning? What is the the attempted? Communication being made here by John in regards to this this logos, and that's why you you look at the three three segments of it in the beginning was the word a and the word is with God be and the word was God see and and each one of these utilizes that That same verb and you also notice that that John doesn't use that verb of any created thing.

He uses the heiress form of of Genoa again. It's hot that point throughout the prologue down to verse 14 Which is where he then switches over and says the word became flesh because the word became flesh a particular point in time and so it's it's it's not so much you Look around and find a a book that says this word means this it's more Understanding the language and then and then applying it within The context, you know, we had a Jehovah's Witness fellow who? prides himself on his ability to use lexical resources come into our chat channel about two weeks ago and one of the things I immediately tried to point out or and ask some questions about was these guys will will be able to talk all about every comment that's ever been made about John 1 1 and about The imperfect form of I me and all the rest of stuff but take them out of the key Christological passages take them out of the key apologetics passages into what we might call mundane passages of Scripture where someone who's actually teaching the entirety of the Word of God regularly would have to be dealing with translation in those contexts in regards to Rejoicing always or living a godly life and things like that and all of a sudden they're completely clueless.