What is "Big Eva?"

Social Justice, White Blindness, and Reparations

Over what is our inheritance to dark ideologies like when you say hey we're not gonna get involved let's just preach the gospel. And I know as a white pastor.

I have blind spots so I am part of the problem and also I'm to some degree I'm the product of. I'm standing on the shoulders of other people who got that.

Through injustice and my culture is in tension with the claims of Christ on me.

And I gotta work at this. I gotta work so a lot of times. The systemic racism.

Can't even be seen by church. Reparations is about imagining is in them. Because of the blindness of their heart whiteness has caused blindness of heart. Tell them I'm talking about reparations for black people.

Yeah and so um.

Homosexuality was not even in the Bible until 74 years ago so I just think.

About that working full-time that they can actually have a living.

That's a justice issue that's not a political issue. Those three things are.

What allows white supremacy to exist. Gentlemen war is upon you. Whether you choose to recognize this fact or not the social justice religion threatens our families our churches and our very civilization itself.

It's destroying the lives of people through canceling them. It's also taking captive the minds of people from empty philosophies that compete directly with the love and the truth of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Please join me on January 29th for war room. We're gonna talk about this and we're not afraid to be called names or challenged from the social justice movement. It's time for men to have courage to stand up for the truth and to stand against the devil's lies.

Please.

Join me. Well that may be the most epic intro that we've ever had on this.

Particular podcast that was made by the guys at Reformation Church Reformation Church of Shelbyville in Kentucky and I'm gonna be there January 29th for their Reformation war room and it's a it's an event in a ministry for men specifically.

So if if you're a man you want to go eat some steak. I think they're having steak and you want to talk about the issues confronting the church. We're gonna talk about social justice and we're not gonna mince words.

I understand that there's gonna be a Q &A session and looking forward to it. So if you're in that area check out the church. It is ref church .com REF ref church .com maybe you need to put in the www I'm not sure www .refchurch .com but there's a contact form there.

There's a phone number if you want more information about that. But again January 29th Shelbyville Kentucky for the Reformation war room and and you can find out more info there. I don't know if you need tickets or I'm assuming you need to register but I'm excited about it.

That's they put in a lot of work obviously and and I think we're gonna have a great time and so I've actually had a number of people contact me for speaking next year and so it it's not all reflected yet on the speaking engagements list on the website but if you go to worldviewconversation .com you can see where I'll be and I have three three places there right now Nampa Idaho in March Grand Rapids Michigan in June and then of course Shelbyville Kentucky in January.

But I just talked to someone the other day. Actually I need to add this I'll be in Wisconsin at a few places in June as well the following week after I'm in Grand Rapids and there's a number of requests that I need to respond to.

So if you are interested in having me come talk to your church or your political organization about social justice. I'll talk about the the new book that came out Christianity and social justice but be happy to answer questions and tailor whatever presentation I have to the needs of your congregation.

I would be happy to do it. My goal is just to help and I see this as a temporary thing in my life something that this is an issue that I'm sure it's not gonna go away it's gonna morph into other things.

But for for right now at this stage where we are right now and the dust is still kind of settling people are still figuring this out. I know because they contact me and they say John what do I do. We got a pastor who's woke John what do we do.

We're vetting church candidates. What questions do I ask John. Do I leave my church. Do I start a church. I can't find a good one. I'm still getting these questions and that's how I know the dust hasn't settled and so while we're in this time period this transitional time period I want to be available to help in any way I can.

And I got into this to begin with really because I wanted people to be aware of what was going on especially at the seminary I had gone to but then it broadened into. I don't see the resources being put out there even some of the resources from people that are on the quote-unquote conservative side in evangelicalism.

I don't see that many of them have been all that helpful. Some of them have been but it's there really aren't a lot of good quality resources for laymen to try to figure this out or for pastors for that matter and so that's been.

My goal is to try to put out those resources and there are more resources I do want to put out but I would be happy to help explain this and answer this objection from social justice to Christianity at your church so or political event or even hey I'll come to your house if you get a bunch of people in your living room we'll talk about it.

You can go to worldview conversation calm that's worldview conversation calm and then book John upper right hand corner and there's a form you can fill out if that would be helpful to you. So I don't ask for much.

I usually just ask you know if there's a willingness to pay for gas even just an offering would be fine if you can just put the word out there doesn't. You know I'm not even expecting that that would necessarily be fulfilled but just just the attempt I usually ask for that and then a place to put my books on a table and that's it.

That's that's all I want from any anything else is extra. So I'm more than happy to even at my own expense at times go and talk to people about this because I do think it is important. So that being said I wanted to talk today about something.

This is a stream of consciousness episode this is very much off the top of my head. But they are they are things that I have thought about to some extent and and I think at this point I can probably say that I would be at least somewhat of an authority on I think because I've been doing this podcast I do have a couple books out on social justice but that is the question of the definition of Big Eva.

What is Big Eva. And I've gotten this question before a lot of people use it in modern parlance and evangelicalism. Big Eva refers to evangelical elites or the evangelical industrial complex. Both terms I use quite a bit more especially evangelical elite that is my term of choice but Big Eva is the term that's probably most often used and I think it was it was either coined or made popular by Phil Johnson in I think it was 2018 at the Shepherds Conference in California they had a question-and-answer period and this was the infamous question-and-answer period where Al Mohler was squirming and Mark Devereux was kind of acting a little bit like a a bit obtuse he was kind of acting like he almost like he didn't understand Phil Johnson's questions and Lincoln Duncan was just very awkward and Sinclair Ferguson was very silent and John MacArthur had to kind of jump in when Phil Johnson and Al Mohler things between them started getting a little zesty and so I remember at one point Phil Johnson had said something about Big Eva.

I think if the context was that Jim Wallace and Sojourners which I write about Jim Wallace and Sojourners in one of my books I don't know if I have a copy sitting here but it's called Social Justice Goes to Church and it's it's the they are one of the quintessential evangelical leftists group if you want to call them evangelicals but they're they're a leftist group that wants to promote social justice and the attempt is to try to remain Orthodox in their theology while at the same time progressive in their politics.

And they've been around since the trying to think. When they started they didn't. The name wasn't Sojourners at first it switched to Sojourners. I think when they moved to Washington DC it was now I can't remember I can't remember the name off the top of my head this should be right there.

I had to study them so much and read so much of their literature but anyway it was and still is very much a leftist group that's rejected by mainstream evangelicalism but now not so much. I mean you've had Jamar Tisby and Ed Stetzer and Karen Swallow Pryor write for Sojourners and in much of what's said in mainstream evangelicalism just parrots what Sojourners has been saying for years and so Phil Johnson kind of pointed that out at this Q &A and he said that you know this there's this thing called Big Eva and you know some of the people in our circles are starting to sound a lot like Jim Wallace sounded in the 70s and he was a hundred percent right and so Big Eva has since then I've just seen it everywhere and so some people don't quite understand or know what that term means.

So I'm gonna explain it. And then for those who have heard it I want to maybe broaden the conception of it. What what is Big Eva. What is this thing. And I want to point out I think the the threatening thing about it the problem with it.

So I like to think about it this way think of a hierarchy that that exists in your church currently. If you go to a church or just imagine a church you have your your deacons you have your elders. You have you know the different functions the Sunday school teachers the janitor the sound guy.

If it's a smaller church maybe one person takes up all those roles and and and so you if it's you know a medium-sized church though you're gonna have different people fulfilling these different roles and there is a kind of a chain of command and there's a hierarchy involved obviously elders or would be at the top of that hierarchy in a local church.

Now if you're in that Presbyterian Church or a church with a polity that includes a denomination a denominational authority of some kind then you might have bishops you might have other you know regional directors of some kind that hold a position of authority over your local church as well.

Big Eva is beyond that and this is the best way I can can explain it is Big Eva is a it is an organized but loosely and that's really the thing I need to stress. It's very loosely organized. It's an organized but loosely organized group of organizations ministries publishing houses conferences and then of course the people that are platformed in these various avenues that are inter denominational or cross denominational and they tend to defend each other look out for each other.

They tend to their their investments within the guild are all tied up together. So in other words it functions almost like a union would function in some ways you can't really say anything about people that are in the guild.

So you might have to be at the same conference with them. Right. So it's there's there's unspoken rules associated with membership in this club. It's an elitist club. It's beyond the local church level and it's beyond even in some ways the denominational level.

Now what would be a Big Eva organization. Well the Gospel Coalition is probably one of your biggest examples of this. It's interdenominational. It's supposed to be Orthodox in theology and so very broad big tent but at the same time they're very they can be rigid on political things or social things and that's why they have the reputation of being more on the left.

Christianity Today I think would be very much part of Big Eva. Nine Marks Ministries often gets lumped into their Desiring God can get lumped into their T4G conference. You know the college ministries like Crew and Navigators and InterVarsity and the presses associated like InterVarsity Press, Nav Press can be part of this to some extent.

You have certain universities like Wheaton being I think one of the big ones that would be part of Big Eva and the Southern Baptist Schools. They're very much. Liberty University has been a little more independent but I definitely see you know that you can't get away from that influence and so I do see some influence even there but the so it's it's a little bit hard to define especially on the edges but it's it's something it's kind of like you know it when you see it because there's certain things that just accompany it.

There's there's a loyalty to the guild. There's a they tend to sound very similar even if they're from different denominations and regions of the country they they have a certain way of talking. They use certain words.

Right. And a lot of these words we've heard we hear phrases a lot like like engaging cultural engagement gospel issue trying to think what else. There's a lot and again it's it's something that I know when I see but it's hard off the top of my head to come up with all the various phrases that they'll use.

But they have a certain way of talking. There was there was actually someone not too long ago that was I was in a church and heard them speaking and it was I couldn't even put my finger on what it was but I just knew listening to them.

I'm like oh they're influenced by by this the certain range of evangelical speakers that that tend to listen to each other and quote each other and have relationships with each other. And again it is cross denominational.

So how do you categorize it. This is something that it hasn't always been the case in Christendom. And so what what is brought this about now I want to start by giving you a little bit of history because I think this is just an extension of what's called neo evangelicalism.

But then so we're gonna do that from bird's-eye view kind of look at this. But then I want to look at it from your local church view as well and answer the question well how do I know if my pastor or myself maybe how do I know if we're influenced by this too much.

How do we know how do I know if there's a danger in our involvement if there is any in quote-unquote be Eva I think this is a legitimate question. I know it sounds almost kooky and silly to you know how could this be a threat of any kind.

And in and of itself it may not be. It's the assumptions the un that the assumptions that we are not usually aware of hidden assumptions that are the problem and and so that's what I want to try to investigate with you.

So we'll start with bird's-eye view. Let's go back to new evangelicalism. Neo-evangelicalism is a term that most often is applied to Harold Ockenga Carl Henry and what they were endeavoring and others like them to do in the late 40s early 50s with fuller theological seminary Christianity today and Gordon Gordon Conwell and a Wheaton College.

I think to some extent Carl Henry wrote a book in 1947 called the uneasy conscience of modern fundamentalism and in the book he argues that we need to essentially train up these global kind of metropolitan type leaders who are going to be respected in this world because they are going to be involved in social social engagement there they have a concern for social issues and and so we call that today I think cultural engagement that's the term that's often used by gospel coalition types but back then it was social concern was the term you'd have most often here and so Carl Henry makes this argument and and he's saying that there's a deficiency in fundamentalism that fundamentalists they're you know they start Bible colleges they train people in the Bible they get into their bunker but they don't influence culture and that Christians ought to do that Christians should influence culture.

And so they started he's helped start fuller theological seminary and their intention was to train these kinds of leaders. Now at the time the Industrial Revolution is is and has taken place modernity is we're in the midst of it.

There's secularization and pastors and churches are not being listened to there. They don't have the authority in society that they used to have and so that's part of what's going on is Carl Henry is seeing this and the fundamentalists just they don't really care they're they're they're fine to secede in Carl Henry's mind from society and to just focus on biblical training and church and and so he wants to amend that he or he wants to keep that the good theology that the fundamentalists may have that Orthodox theology but he wants to supplement it by creating an institutions that will train pastors in modern psychology and and honestly in social justice and things that would be more palatable to the world and maybe give them more respect and they'd be able to train or able to influence people because they would be more respected and they would they would be shown to be not so heavenly minded.

They weren't no earthly good that they would be earthly good. And so in the experiment which was fuller it's a full theological seminary this this probably lasted like what 15 years or so before they went off the rails.

It wasn't long fuller theological seminaries catalog course catalog started adding psychology. They were the first Christian seminary to be I think Christian University period or college to be accredited by the American Psychological Association.

They they get on the social justice bandwagon and now you can see where fuller is and it's just totally compromised. But the that wasn't the intention originally. In fact that's where Bill Bright went to to fuller theological seminary.

John Piper went to fuller theological seminary number of people did so fuller theological seminary goes this in this direction but so do many other schools and this zeitgeist of new evangelicalism really does start to influence formerly fundamentalist churches and it's it becomes popular and it kind of it's so because it's so bare-bones Orthodox in a way and it's so the the whole orientation of it is more towards man and the needs the current needs of man and what man wants instead of theology itself it was able to very much take bits and pieces of all kinds of other things.

So the Jesus people movement kind of influences it and the religious right even because I mean it's a popular movement it kind of influences it. So there's even before that before the religious right you had kind of a leftist current in it but then the religious right comes along and so in this pop Christian level mainstream evangelicalism is kind of influenced by that.

But overall the most of the intellectuals that would have been part of this movement if you could say there were intellectuals which there were they end up being more on the left and and and fast-forward to today the group that we think of as Big Eva most of these people and organizations are rooted in that neo evangelical or influenced by that neo evangelical movement.

That's what they're trying to do. They're trying to engage the culture they're trying to gain a hearing with the world. They're trying to be winsome right. That's another buzzword that they use a lot they that's that's it's a mission shift kind of from what had been before it's this it's this new way of keeping Orthodox theology but while all being quote-unquote relevant so that's that's Big Eva.

It's it's an extension of what the neo evangelicals were trying to build and now I would suggest it it's starting to crumble in ways and so you have a Big Eva and then I've heard this before you have a Little Eva and so Big Eva right some of the organizations I just mentioned Little Eva perhaps being like the G3 conference to some extent and Founders Ministries to some extent and I don't know maybe certain aspects of Ligonier or Grace to You and some of these organizations have been around for a while so it's not like they're anything new but there's there's a new energy in in some of these organizations and it's because of the split that's happening because people are conservatives especially political conservatives but also theological conservatives that understand the threat of social justice are starting to realize how these Big Eva groups have sold out on this issue and how it compromises theology and so they've ended up starting to associate in a different place in a different area in a different conferences and new publishing houses are getting started.

I to some extent I mean you could say I know the the Moscow Idaho crowd with Doug Wilson and his church isn't really they're they're they're their own thing. They're not really completely the with G3 perhaps but there's been like like Rachel I think it's Rachel Jenkovich you know I've spoken at G3 and I think the cross-politic guys have been there and I know Founders Ministries has done a lot of work with some of those guys and so there's a there's new alliances kind of forming and again these to me this is also to some extent possibly very possibly a an extension of that neo evangelical movement as well in a way because what you're seeing is people across denominational barriers that have actually you know a lot of differences in some ways but they're still very much so cooperating and they kind of have their own guild now so there's kind of a new guild in my mind forming and and so you have an older guild that's still Big Eva the right the big publishing houses and the big conferences and all that but it's kind of it's dying a little bit because of the compromise that they've been pushing and now there's another kind of loose coalition forming as well which is also very rooted in in basic Orthodox beliefs.

Now some of them like for instance like Founders Ministries would be 1689 Baptist but then again that they'll work with people from Moscow you have you know G3 which is also I think a 1689 more Baptist group but they'll they'll platform people that are outside of that to some extent.

So to some extent what I'm talking about has been going on for years I mean the Shepherds Conference is you know there's people from a wide range of theological positions but they're all reformed ish so they're and they're usually not charismatic.

I think Piper's been there a few times but other than him perhaps and maybe maybe see I don't know if CJ Mahaney's ever been there I think he was at their youth version they have a youth conference it's not Shepherds I forget what it's called but they they tend to stay in that reformed and also cessationist kind of you know that's kind of their group so so there's unique things to every conference and every organization but the big picture broadly speaking you see kind of two groups breaking off and cooperating together now then there's there's people like the podcasters smaller congregations and pastors who have now because of technology they have their own ministries that they're able to get out there I think of like right response ministries with Joel Webben and I think of like 80 Robles and what he's doing right just a guy with a camera that's really what I'm doing.

I'm a guy with a camera and now we've both written books about the social justice issue and and and there's there's many others that have through their church or through their just their own selves they've decided to put out information on certain things and that's you know I hope what I do is helpful.

I think of what I do is kind of like a vitamin you you know hopefully if things are working correctly you can go to church and get your multivitamin but I realized that most churches are not fighting this issue many pastors if they are aware of it they're afraid to say much to be specific and to take a stand but if they but many are not aware of it and so my goal is to maybe supplement to not give you the multivitamin I'm trying to give you just here's here's one thing that is affecting the church very greatly right now in this temporary period of time and I and it'll probably get worse and take different forms but right now the dust hasn't settled yet and while this is happening I want to do my best since I seem to understand the issue I think to some extent at least I want to help those who don't understand it understand it and understand how to respond to it and so I'm doing something very specific and and so so this is kind of the evangelical landscape you have big Eva you have little Eva you have for lack of better terms and then you have all these these local kind of voices and ministries and stuff and and many of us are that we're not going to ever be platformed in any of those groups and we're not necessarily been looking for that we're we're doing something very narrow and unique that we feel needs to be done and we're helping people do that and and to some extent someone like myself or an 80-year-old as we probably will never actually get that kind of platforming from those big organizations anyway unless you know bigger organizations that have unique interest in in really really going after these compromisers hard arise somehow so so that's the landscape now from a bottom-up looks so I've given you hopefully what would be the bird's-eye view if here's big either here's little Eva and then here's here's all the kind of local people that are have some kind of a voice from a from a local perspective like in your local church if you're wondering okay what's the problem with all this.

John what are you trying to say. And what do you what why even tell us all this. The reason I say this is because there's a connotation to big Eva that is hierarchical that there is a guild a hierarchy that is outside of your elders and your local church in your denomination to which and this is the important part to which allegiance is sworn whether unknowingly or knowingly so you could have a pastor or leaders in your church and I've seen this by the way who have a sense of wanting to please wanting to defend wanting to gain attention from leaders in the big Eva group more so than they do from those in their own church and community and family perhaps and I have seen this where the where the organization that they might be on the board for that's you know the gospel coalition or some seminary or so you know that these this guild becomes part of their identity as people.

It's their sense of belonging is fulfilled in it what they would normally in a natural naturally get from their family and their church in their local area. They're instead finding a lot of those things in a membership or or they aspire to be a member to to this guild.

And that's where the problem arises. That's why when people talk about big Eva they usually do so negatively. It's because there's there's an interest that should not be there an interest in gaining the favor of those in the elite circles rather than doing one's job and loving one's congregation.

It'd be so so. That's why in in many places and I have seen this the the pastor or the the church may be very reluctant to take a firm position on social justice or the COVID situation or more reluctant perhaps now it's becoming more popular to say something about social justice right.

Some bare-bones kind of yeah of course we're against that but to actually name names like to say the name Al Mohler or Ligon Duncan right or Tim Keller like these are names you're not supposed to say depending on on you know whether or not you want membership and the accolades of being one day part of the big Eva guild.

And so people don't want to hurt their chances. If you know maybe they'll become popular. Maybe they could. They don't want to offend these people. I've heard this many times. I 100 know that this is the case.

When you hear that though what you're seeing is pastors who are willing to look the other way or they're unwilling to perhaps research into what their members of their church their sheep may be listening to.

That may be harmful to them because it might hurt their position or their chances. Or it may impact their the way that they relate to this big Eva guild. And so their relationship to the guild becomes sometimes more important than their relationship to their own elders and their own flock.

And that's where the danger comes in. It's a there's a celebrity worship. There's an infatuation. Look you don't even know me. I'm not part of the big Eva guild. But look but you can do the same thing with me.

You can. You can. You know it's possible to think of me as someone who is is really great or whatever. You like my commentary but you only see me when I'm putting a camera on you don't know what I'm like the rest of the day.

And and that's something you just have to realize. You have to stop yourself and realize. Okay most of my time and my effort and my love and my sense of allegiance and and all of that needs to be more rooted in my the local people that I actually know who they are.

They are the ones that know that they can keep me accountable. And and obviously first and foremost our allegiances to the Lord right. The our identity is is wrapped up in him. But he has given us these tools in these in these people and responsibilities.

And when we put those on the shelf to be part of to listen to to spend our time with to love this artificial world of big Eva then it's a problem. And some pastors coming fresh out of seminary think that's what ministry is that's what theology is.

That's what that's and that's the danger and that's the danger. And so that's what I wanted to share with you is this is my heart on the matter. I I just I yeah it is something that's concerned me. It's always concerned me.

Since seminary since I remember in preaching class the question you know who's it. Literally this happened in preaching class at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary. The professor said who are your favorite preachers.

And people would give names. Right. And I think at the time it was Mark Dever was the big name and I think Tulian Tavitian was another big name that was given there. I'm trying to think who else was given David Platt.

We so these are the big names and you know we can see how that's worked out for all three of those figures. But these are the people that people aspire to be like pastors wanted to be like aspiring pastors.

And our professor said well you want to copy them and you want to go and try to copy their style. And you know the more you listen to them the more you'll be able to copy them. That was literally advice I was given in seminary wasn't the only advice but it was advice that we were given.

And I mean it's inevitable if you like a preacher you're gonna start sounding more like them. But the danger is that if you idolize a preacher or a public figure of some kind in this big Eva Gill that you don't even know they could be someone like a Mark Dever or a Tulian Tavitian or a David Platt.

There may be problems there you're just not aware of and you're you're copying something that's artificial. Or maybe maybe their sermons are being written by some some group right like Ed Linton sermons you know they're not even his sermons.

So it's it's better to stick with what's real and authentic than what's potentially artificial. And and so even with this podcast that you're listening to right now hopefully I'm giving you good information.

I'm helping you think that's my whole goal. But my goal is not that you would say I just want to be like John. I want to my life to be more increasingly identified with John and wrapped up in what John says.

And I you know I you know I just have to always you know think of think of my allegiance to John over even my my responsibilities and and the people I should be listening to that actually know who I am and can pour into my life.

So that as long as you're not doing that then it's fine to listen to sermons to podcasts any of that stuff but you don't want your identity to start to be really wrapped up in that too tightly at least to where it forms a hierarchy.

And there's not much of a danger of probably me doing that as much but in with the Big Eva when they have all the resources they have and the conferences they have and the sermon series and the radio connections and the publishing hat and all of that it can become a hierarchy beyond the local church or the denomination.

And that's what you got to be careful of. That's the danger. That's the threat. Because then when they compromise they take a lot with them and and I've certainly seen that happen and there's an incentive not to tell the truth to your congregation about some of these guys when you think it might hurt your chances of being accepted in the guild.

And that explains why even among many conservatives that will say things against critical race theory and maybe edge out and say something against Russell Moore that might you know the test thing in the Southern Baptist Convention in my mind is will they come out against Al Mohler.

Will they say what needs to be said about Al Mohler. If they don't see compromise there and I write about it by the way for those who are new to this Christianity and socialjustice .com you can get the book Christianity and social justice religions and conflict.

I have a whole section on Al Mohler and there's a number of problems. And if you if you're unwilling to say the name Al Mohler and associate them with with the problems and and just be honest about it then there's there's a compromise.

There's a problem there and I don't care how conservative you are and then you know against Russell Moore and what he's doing. If you're if you're unwilling to look at that then then there's there's an issue and I and I and it could be a lack of knowledge sometimes that's that's legitimate.

There could be a lack of knowledge. You don't know who he is really but I'm saying for people who do know people who really do know who he is and they do know the facts that are outlined in that book and they're still willing to defend and they're still willing.

They don't want to tell the sheep you know how this man is compromised. I'm just using him as one example. There could be a lot of others I use then then that's that's a sign of what I'm talking about to some extent so I'm not trying to be too hard on anyone in particular.

I'm just and I don't even have anyone in mind right now. I'm just I'm just giving you here here are the principles here here are the the categories and the way I think about this whole issue of Big Eva.

So that's what Big Eva is hierarchy outside the church a guild. It's associated with a lot of big organizations that have lots of money and there's a lot of people that listen to them and there's there's sort of a sense of they shall not be touched because of who they are in the status that they have achieved but again artificial platforms in many ways and you don't exactly know who they are.

So that is that's the podcast today. I hope you'll check out the January 29th Shelbyville Kentucky War Room if you're in that area Louisville Kentucky area pretty close to there you can go to ref church comm and again go to book John at worldview conversation comm and you can if you want to have me come to your church and talk about Christianity and social justice be more than happy to do it to help the congregation think through these issues theologically rationally and to be able to withstand them when they come because they will come and if they haven't already.