April 24, 2017 Show with Jeremy Walker on “The Brokenhearted Evangelist”

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Now here's our host Chris Arnton. Good afternoon

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity who are living on the planet earth listening via live streaming.

This is Chris Arnton, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Monday on this 24th day of April 2017.

I'm so delighted to have returning to the Iron Sharpens Iron radio program, Jeremy Walker, who is pastor of Maiden Bower Baptist Church of Crawley in West Sussex, England, and he's an author and blogger at Reformation 21 and the

Ronderer, the Wanderer, and we are addressing one of his books today,

The Brokenhearted Evangelist, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Pastor Jeremy Walker.

Hello Chris, thanks for having me back. Good to be with you. Oh, it's great to have you on the program again, Pastor Jeremy, and what

I'm going to do is I'm going to read a product description that the publishers,

Reformation Heritage Books, have provided us with and this is no doubt going to be a fascinating interview with a gutless orthodoxy.

Christians today quickly affirm biblical truth regarding evangelism and mission, but author

Jeremy Walker reminds us we cannot pretend that we know and believe the truth about men, souls, heaven, hell, and salvation unless it is making a difference in the way we think, feel, pray, speak, and act.

How do Christians develop the sense of urgency to see lost sinners saved?

What motivates our evangelism? We must have the character of the brokenhearted evangelist.

We must have the character of the brokenhearted evangelist, the David of Psalm 51, who recognizes the greatness of his own sin, looks to God for forgiveness, then recognizes his undeniable obligation to teach transgressors

God's ways. In an engaging style with pastoral warmth, Walker urges

Christians to exercise their obligation and privilege to teach transgressors

God's ways, providing both spiritual truth and practical guidance for carrying out this necessary gospel duty.

Now I'm going to read some very profound and remarkable commendations for this book by folks who have been guests here on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, such as Dr.

John MacArthur of Grace to You Ministries. In recent years, Providence has brought a number of people into my life and ministry who are passionate about evangelism.

Some of them are especially keen to win friends, fellow workers, and family to Christ.

Others are engaged in various kinds of open -air evangelism, bringing the gospel to people they have never met before.

I thank God for all of them and the passion that drives them. This excellent book by Jeremy Walker explains the biblical principles that underlie and provoke such passion, reminding us that time is short, the need is urgent, the laborers are few, and the fields are white unto harvest.

That was, as I said, Dr. John MacArthur. My friend Conrad Mbewe, a pastor of Kabwata Baptist Church in Lusaka, Zambia, Africa, says,

Jeremy Walker's book is in the tradition of the Puritan classic Joseph Alain's Alarm to the

Unconverted. This is more Jeremy Walker's Alarm to the

Converted. It is a pleasant surprise coming, as it does, from a part of our world where Christianity has largely entered a garrison, a bunker mode.

The book, based on Psalm 51 -13, is not meant simply to teach us about evangelism.

It demands a verdict. He enlists the help of the great soul winners in history to reinforce his appeals.

Even before I finished reading the book, I was already asking myself whether my heart was truly broken about the loss around me.

And, if it is, what am I doing about it? And, as I said, that was Conrad Mbewe of Kabwata Baptist Church, Lusaka, Zambia, Africa.

And then Rob Ventura, who I've had on this program, pastor of Grace Community Baptist Church in Rhode Island.

The brokenhearted evangelist is a challenging call to our great responsibility and glorious privilege of personally sharing the gospel of Christ with others.

In this book, Pastor Jeremy Walker does a superb job of showing us, from the life of David, that mercies received from God are to be a key motivating factor for us, telling others about him.

Filled with much practical instruction and penetrating insight, this book is very helpful in teaching us how to become wise and winning souls for Jesus.

Would we live up to such a high biblical calling in our lives? Would we do our master's bidding as he calls us to do?

May the Lord be pleased to use this stirring work to these holy and blessed ends.

And now I'm going to let someone, who I have not yet had on this program as a guest,

Paul Washer, world -renowned evangelist and author. He is going to, in his own words now, tell you something about this book, which he obviously loves tremendously and has had a great impact on his life.

Here's Dr. Paul. Here's Paul Washer with his own words about this book. Now, the next book is really, well, it's become a part of my heart.

It's the Broken Hearted Evangelist by Jeremy Walker. Now, this is an exceptional book on evangelism, and I don't say that lightly.

I'm involved in missions and I'm involved in evangelism, and I feel that one of the greatest responsibilities, if not the greatest responsibility of the church, is to reach the lost, to preach the gospel to every creature.

But sometimes, even men like me who are involved in missions, we lack the motivation, the zeal that we need.

And that's what this book talks about. Now, let me read to you just some introductory statements. How do

Christians develop a sense of urgency to see lost sinners saved? What motivates our evangelism?

We must have the character of the broken hearted evangelist, the

David of Psalms 51, who recognizes the greatest, the greatness of his own sin, looks to God for forgiveness, then recognizes his undeniable obligation to teach transgressors

God's ways. Now, this is a very, very unique book in that after reading it,

I wanted to go out and witness to everybody that I came in contact with. But I wasn't driven by the whip of a master or the whip of a guilty conscience, but by what

God had done for me, being the tremendous sinner that I was when the

Lord Jesus Christ saved me and how he's changed my life, how his forgiveness has transformed my life.

It causes me to want to go out to other men, women, children and tell them about Jesus.

Also, I know that like David, if God could forgive a sinner like me. Then he is capable, able to save all those who come to him.

I wrote a recommendation for this book, and I put the broken hearted evangelist will refresh, strengthen and equip the most timid saint for the work of soul winning.

Jeremy Walker's consideration of evangelism from the perspective of Psalms 51 is like fresh water drawn from a well.

He does not merely exhort us to greater faithfulness in evangelism and then leave us bewildered and guilty.

Instead, he takes us to the very fountain from which all true motivation and strength for evangelism springs forth the gospel and its glorious impact upon our lives.

So I really recommend this book to you, the broken hearted evangelist. Well, that was Paul Washer giving obviously a very heartfelt commendation for this book.

And now I can tell people that Paul Washer has been on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Just kidding.

And in fact, we should all be praying for Paul Washer because he is recovering from a heart attack that he had recently.

And do you have any updates on that, Brother Jeremy? All I know is that he seems to be recovering well.

My sense from speaking to mutual friends is that he's already trying to get back in the saddle.

Whether or not that's the wisest thing is not for me to judge. I'm sure his pastors, his wife and his good friends will be taking good care of him, giving him good counsel, and that he will act as wisely and as carefully and as vigorously as he knows how, given the circumstances that he's under.

But I wouldn't be surprised if it's a little while before he's back up and running in any kind of sense.

Yes, and I had the privilege of meeting Brother Paul for the first time when

I was at the G3 conference in Atlanta, Georgia back in January before he had his heart attack.

And he was actually feeling very under the weather back then. So I ask of all my

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listeners to pray for Paul Washer, that he is restored to fullness of strength and vitality, that he may continue to bless the body of Christ and even the lost whom he evangelizes very soon.

And we are all a better church to have

Paul Washer a part of it by God's grace and mercy. And I look forward to someday having him on the program as well.

I know that the people that he works with have expressed interest in scheduling an interview with him, but he has just been so busy and battling health problems on top of it that it's been difficult.

But hopefully that will come about at some point in the near future, and I will let you know without a doubt if Paul can be on the program with us.

What were the circumstances in your own ministry and life that led you to say,

I've got to write a book about the broken -hearted evangelist and why a broken heart is a required element of genuine and biblically successful evangelism, not success in the way the world defines success, but success the way the

Scriptures would define it? Well, in part, Chris, the work came about because I was preaching my way through Psalm 51, and when

I came to the 13th verse, it sort of opened up as I was handling it.

At the same time, I think that there were particular pressures,

I trust holy spiritual pressures on my own soul, in part because of my own failings with regard to this duty and because of my sense and conviction that many of the churches with which

I was involved at the time, the congregation which I myself serve and others like it, seemed to have, if not a blind spot in principle, then certainly a struggle in practice to embrace and pursue a robust, a biblically defined mode and manner with proper motive of evangelism.

With churches, I think that would in all sincerity properly celebrate some of the great men of the past who have been at the forefront of this kind of witness, some of the particular

Baptists for me of the 17th century, men who saw an unusual growth in their churches and a proliferation of churches.

They were church planters of the first water. Then you move on to some of the men of the 18th into the 19th century, men like Andrew Fuller, Samuel Pierce, William Carey, and then on to men like Spurgeon and some of those who were associated with him.

And that's skipping over even some of the investments that some of the wonderful men who were working at the

Great Awakening were involved in. You've got all this rich, fairly recent historical example.

That's before you even get back into the work of the Reformation and then before that all the way back to the

Apostles themselves. And we applaud it and we're grateful for it and we delight in it.

But I was not sure, and in some respects I'm still not sure, that I or we have embraced it practically.

What do you think are some of the root causes of the apathy and the lack of genuine heartfelt, heartbroken concern and passion that Christians have in regard to evangelism?

Because this, unlike the accusation of many of our anti -Calvinist brethren or friends and acquaintances or, dare

I say, enemies, the accusation is this is really the backyard of the

Calvinists, that we are the ones exclusively who are guilty of this lack of heartbroken evangelism.

And although I would not hesitate to admit that there are many

Calvinists who are guilty as charged in regard to this, and I'm also willing to admit, sadly, that I am often guilty of this.

But it is not exclusively, obviously, a Calvinistic problem because there are

Arminians who behave like hyper -Calvinists, either just because they are lazy or they are self -righteous and do not want to commingle with people who are overt sinners, people who are perhaps even scandalous sinners, they don't even want anything to do with them.

But there are all kinds of reasons why we have this apathy and lack of passion in evangelism.

What are some of the things that come to your own mind? Well, I think it's probably only fair that I speak with regard to my own tribe, as it were, and it seems to me that it is for many of us sometimes hard to dispute the charge, at least based on the evidence.

We can say that we don't believe it, but practically we can act like what have historically been called hyper -Calvinists, those who even resist the notion that the gospel should be freely preached and sinners invited to come to the

Lord Christ. So why is that? Where does the disconnect between our doctrine and our practice creep in?

And I think on one level you could raise a number of interesting questions, a number of, in some senses, legitimate concerns.

There is fear. There is the fear of man. That holds us back. There's for some the sense, perhaps, that the church in the modern

West is in decline, and not just in a general sense, but people have seen that in their own lifetimes.

And they've got what Conrad and Bailey call the developing bunker mentality, where we just need to lock all the doors and hammer large pieces of wood crookedly over all the windows and just hope that maybe when all this storm has passed us by, we might creep out from under the rock and hopefully think we'll be well.

But I think fundamentally, Chris, boil it down, and you're talking about unbelief.

We really need, I really need to ask myself the question, do

I believe in heaven and hell? Do I believe in the immortality of the soul?

Do I believe in the coming day of judgment? Do I believe that the gospel is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the

Jew first and also for the Greek, because in it a righteousness from God is revealed from faith to faith?

If I believe that, then it will change what

I think and feel and how I speak and act. And so I think it comes down to this question of belief or unbelief, of faith in Christ, in his word, in his promises and in his warnings.

And that is related to our underlying spiritual vitality, whether or not we were alive to eternity in that sense.

You'll know Jonathan Edwards' prayer that the Lord would stamp eternity on his eyeballs, that we would live in the light of eternity.

I think if we have that kind of spiritual vitality and that strong conviction that is rooted in what

God has said, then it must of necessity change our practice.

And where there's a disconnect, I think we have some hard questions to ask ourselves. I have hard questions to ask myself.

I convict myself all over again every time I look at this book. Well, I'm going to give our email address again for anybody who would like to join us on the air with a question.

Our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

Please at least give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the

USA. But also, if you care to remain anonymous because it's a personal or private matter that you're asking about, please feel free to remain anonymous and we will not identify you.

But if it's not a personal or private issue, if it's a general theological question related to our subject, please at least give us your first name, city, and state, and country of residence.

We have Tyler in Mastic Beach, Long Island, New York, who has a very appropriate question that is certainly related to what you were just saying.

He asks, do you think we as Reformed Christians often use the sovereignty of God as an excuse for the lack of evangelism in our lives?

I think that can become a very convenient excuse for doing nothing, but it actually ought to be our reason for doing anything.

Because, first of all, God is not only sovereign with regard to the ends that He has ordained, but also with regard to the means that He has appointed for the accomplishment of those ends.

The sovereignty of God isn't a bar to evangelism or shouldn't be an excuse not to evangelize.

It becomes our reason to do so and our confidence in so doing. Because God is sovereign in salvation, it means that I know that in the use of these appointed means,

I can go with confidence and I can speak this good news to any creature, any man or woman, boy or girl, regardless of their state, condition, background, circumstances, social class, whatever it might be, and I can do so with the confident hope that God can and will call

His people to Himself. But that He has appointed the preaching of the Word as the means of doing that, the sovereignty of God far from being an excuse not to evangelize or a break upon our evangelizing, actually is the great motive and the source of all the confidence that we can have with regard to the preaching of the gospel.

Amen. Yes, and of course every Calvinist worth his salt should be reminded or should remember or always be conscious of the fact that not to evangelize is sin.

You're disobeying God when you keep your mouth shut and would rather enjoy an unbroken friendship with the world around you rather than have them flee from you in anger or disappointment or even the fact that they may mock you and think that you're weird or strange or bizarre.

And that goes with the territory, Chris, as you well know. I mean, I always think it's ironic that when

Christ is, for good and proper reasons, in the Gospels seeking to ensure that the revelation of His person and His work comes in the right way at the right time,

He sometimes tells people not to make Him known. And very often the people who have received blessings at His hands are so excited by what they have received that they cannot help but speak of Christ.

And it's very easy for us to tut at them and say, didn't they hear what our Lord said? I mean, surely they could have followed

His clear instructions. And then you get to the point where Christ says, now go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.

And somehow we think that that's the point at which we ought to be exempting ourselves. It's grossly inconsistent.

And furthermore, the historical figures that we made reference to a few minutes ago,

I'm not saying for a moment that the only faithful evangelists have been Calvinists, but it is notable that the vast majority of those to whom we referred were evangelical

Calvinists of the finest kind. And to them it wasn't simply a matter of trying to reconcile their

Calvinism with their evangelical and evangelistic zeal. It was simply that that was the only proper and appropriate marriage of conviction and action.

Amen. And by the way, Tyler, you have won a free copy of this book that we are discussing today,

The Broken -Hearted Evangelist, by our guest Jeremy Walker. So please make sure we have your full mailing address, and that will be shipped out to you by Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cv, for Cumberland Valley, bbs, for biblebookservice .com,

cv, bbs .com. And that will be compliments of our good friends at Reformation Heritage Books, who have provided these free copies to give out.

And we thank David Wolin and everybody at Reformation Heritage Books for their generosity to our listeners.

And we have another question from a listener that actually is a perfect segue to what you were just discussing.

This is Chris in Runnels, Iowa. I am convinced that there are many in the church who like I, who have a desire,

I think that should be like, who like me, Chris in Runnels, Iowa, who have a desire to see men and women converted to the gospel of grace.

Yet far too often, I and others am certain to find ourselves crippled by a sinful fear of man, thus preventing ourselves from sharing the gospel as we should.

Does Pastor Walker, actually, yes, Pastor, does Pastor Walker have any encouragement or rebuke that would stir us to put aside this fear?

Well, it certainly sounds like this brother's already rebuking himself appropriately. I don't think

I need to add anything. And in a sense, the things we've been talking about so far, are themselves a rebuke to to to careless inactivity.

And I think what was the gentleman's name again, Chris, Chris from Runnels, Iowa. Okay, so Chris, I think has, has very well expressed the sort of the self inflicted torment that many of us feel.

We know it should be done. We want it to be done. We feel that we ought to be participating in it.

And yet, we, we've trapped ourselves in a sort of a mesh of cords by which we hold ourselves back from doing it.

And I think there are, this is this is one of the things that I try and address in the book, because I think very often, we, we imagine that this, this work belongs either to a particular class of Christian, or to somebody with a, a particular gift.

Now, let's be very clear, there are some people who have a distinct gift, and what seems to be a manifest calling to this kind of work, in terms of their, their character, their convictions, the, the, the boldness that the

Lord gives them, there are some people who you sort of say, this, this guy's a born evangelist, or this woman is a born evangelist, it just sort of bubbles out of them.

And I don't want to take anything away from that. Because I think, again, historically, that people who have such a gift for making

Christ known to the unconverted publicly and privately, should be encouraged and employed from within the local church, and used in their immediate context and further afield.

But the problem is that what we tend to do is to work from that and say, well, I don't have that gift.

Therefore, this isn't something that I either have the opportunity to do, or am equipped to do.

And what I would say to this, this brother, Chris is, it's, it's not about your personal eloquence, certainly not about your, you know,

I'm not saying that we don't need to speak the truth, but it's, it's not, it's not a matter of our academic qualifications.

It's, it's not a matter of our natural charisma. It's not a matter of our natural or innate boldness.

It's not to do with our social status, with the wealth that we've got, with the profile that we have.

It's, to use the language of one of the old Puritans, Robert Trail, when he was writing about justification, defending the truth of justification by faith.

At one point, he launches out into this wonderful exhortation to preach the gospel.

And he says, tell people the history and mystery of the gospel plainly. Now, where's his mystery?

He's talking about the revealed truth. Give them the facts, give them the substance of God's good news in Christ.

And I would say to Chris, be persuaded because of what God says that the, the simple, straightforward, earnest, prayerful declaration of a

Christ who suffers and dies in the place of his people with an urgent call to repent of your sins and put your faith in Jesus Christ, reasoning out those matters, pressing home the gospel, explaining its, its connections, making known the personal work of Christ.

That, that, that is God's given means for accomplishing this work of, of, of spreading the truth, advancing the kingdom of Christ.

So don't, don't be put off by your inadequacies and insufficiencies.

Paul himself could, could groan who is sufficient for these things.

And yet our sufficiency is of Christ. And while we are not apostles, nevertheless, that the principle remains the same.

It's not my wisdom. It's not my power. It's not my, my standing that makes this gospel compelling, persuasive, and effective.

It's the God whose gospel it is who sends us out to speak the truth. Amen. Thank you,

Chris, from Reynolds, Iowa. Please give me your full mailing address because you have also won a free copy of the book.

We are discussing The Broken -Hearted Evangelist by our guest Jeremy, Jeremy Walker. And we thank you for contributing to today's show with your excellent question.

And we're going to a break right now. If anybody else would like to join us, our email address is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. I haven't forgotten any of you who have already written in, waiting for your questions to be asked and answered.

And I'll be attempting to get to as many of you as possible before the program is over, hopefully all of you.

But send us an email as soon as you can, if you have a question at ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

Don't go away. We will be right back, God willing, with Jeremy Walker. One sure way all

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Hi, I'm Pastor Bill Shishko, inviting you to tune in to A Visit to the Pastor's Study every

Saturday from 12 noon to 1 pm Eastern Time on WLIE Radio, www .wlie540am

.com. We bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you, and we invite you to visit the pastor's study by calling in with your questions.

Our time will be lively, useful, and I assure you, never dull. Join us this Saturday at 12 noon

Eastern Time for a visit to the pastor's study because everyone needs a pastor. Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnson. If you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours with about 90 minutes to go is

Jeremy Walker, pastor of Maiden Bower Baptist Church of Crawley in West Sussex, England.

He's an author and a blogger at Reformation 21 and The Wanderer. We are addressing one of his books,

The Broken -Hearted Evangelist. If you'd like to join us on the air with a question, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com,

c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com, and please give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the

USA. You may remain anonymous if it makes you feel more comfortable, if it's about a personal and private matter.

Going back to what Chris in Runnels, Iowa, asked you regarding the fear of men, isn't one of the powerful truths that we

Christians can hold to, especially if we have an understanding of unconditional election and the doctrines of sovereign grace, is that Christ's sheep will hear his voice?

There's no question mark there. When we evangelize and we are being mocked, we are being verbally and perhaps even physically abused, we take it for granted sometimes that when we live in a place of relative peace and safety, that our brothers and sisters overseas in many areas of the world are actually being tortured and murdered for the faith but we are in relative safety and tranquility in most of the places where Iron Sharpens Iron has listeners.

But whatever we receive from those who reject the gospel, whether it's words of hatred or even being fired from our jobs or having spouses leave us or having children disown us, we know that if they are of the elect, whoever is of the elect,

Christ's sheep will hear his voice and they will come to him. And that should give us a certain sense or a really deep sense of patience.

And isn't it true that many of the greatest missionaries, the most patient of missionaries who have stayed in areas overseas for longer periods of time, during many years perhaps, where little or no fruit that the eye can see, has been born from missionary evangelist efforts.

They know that every tribe and tongue and people and nation have a remnant who are

God's elect and they continue and they press on even when it seems from men's standards they have been very unsuccessful.

Isn't that one of the truths that should give us great hope and joy in the midst of evangelism?

Absolutely. I think it's vital to remember that the promise that the preaching of the gospel will prove effectual when

God is at work is not a promise that it will be easy to do that work.

In fact, Christ himself warns us that if we're walking in the footsteps of the master, then we will suffer as he suffered.

If the world hated him, it will hate us also. And I think to link in with some of the other questions, as you say, that one of the reasons why we find it so hard is because it is hard and yet we give up very quickly and perhaps we console ourselves with the idea that, well, it doesn't really work or it's not happening here or we tell ourselves that it's unusually difficult in the place where we are.

Well, you show me a place where the salvation of a soul dead in trespasses and sins is easy.

It never lies within the scope of human power and wisdom.

It is of necessity a work of God. And the testimony of the life and the teaching of so many of those examples we've mentioned is of people who, even in times of revival, we shouldn't look at those histories in the past and just sort of read them as if there's this rosy glow over everything and they never faced any difficulties.

In fact, I think it's fair to say that in times when there was a great ingathering of souls into God's kingdom, if anything, the antagonism was even more intense.

And it still is today. But you think of someone like Cary when he first went out to India and how many years he had to simply keep chipping away, equipping himself, humanly speaking, for the work, preaching the gospel as and where he could, reasoning, persuading, and so on and so forth, before he began to see any fruit.

I think dogged consistency and persistence is very often what's actually lacking in our evangelizing.

If it doesn't happen immediately, if it doesn't happen easily, it's too easy to give up.

And we must keep going, both in terms of doing the general work of evangelizing, but also in dealing with particular individuals.

And never conclude that this isn't working or that God has done with something or someone.

You might know the wonderful story about John Flavel, one of the

Puritans. And I may have some of the details wrong here, but I think the name in question was a

Luke Short. If I'm wrong, I'm sure someone will be glad to correct me. But this young man in his teens, he was a cabin boy in Flavel's hometown.

And Flavel preached the gospel, and he heard the gospel. He went off to sea, eventually emigrated to America.

And I think it must have been like in his 90s or something, he's sitting underneath a tree somewhere in the

And God brings back to his mind the things that he heard this godly preacher preach however many decades before, and it's the means of his salvation.

We're never to give up on people. There's a wonderful story again about some of the earliest of the men of Puritan stamp.

There was a wonderful preacher in a place called Dedham called John Rogers.

They used to call him Rogers. People used to say, let's go to Dedham and fetch a little fire.

One wonderful and idiosyncratic preacher of the gospel. But his uncle was another well -known pastor and preacher called

Richard Rogers. And in those days, you needed really a sponsor to get you to the universities.

And Richard Rogers sponsored the unconverted John, gave him all his books, gave him all his clothes, set him up with everything that he'd need.

And John Rogers went and squandered the whole thing. He basically gambled and drank it all away. So Richard Rogers set him up again, and the same thing happened again.

And Richard Rogers was about to throw his hands up and say, look, what's the point? All this goodness and kindness is being wasted on the man.

And his wife, I think it was, persuaded him to do it again. Don't give up on the man yet.

And John went to university again. And on this occasion, he came under the sound of the gospel in a saving way, was was wonderfully converted, and himself became this wonderful gospel preacher.

And Richard Rogers said, on reflection, that his experience with John Rogers had taught him that he should never despair of any man.

Well, you know something, Chris, if you're still listening in Runnels, Iowa, in regard to having the fear of men,

John Flavel, who our guest just mentioned, Jeremy Walker, John Flavel has written a book called

Triumphing Over Sinful Fear. And if you'd like to get a hold of that, go to Solid Ground Christian Books website,

Solid -Ground -Books .com, Solid -Ground -Books .com.

They're one of the sponsors of Iron Trumpets Iron Radio. And if you go into the search engine and just type in Flavel, F -L -A -V -E -L, it's

F -L -A -V as in victory, E -L, F as in Frank, L -A -V as in victory, E -L, you will get that list of books by John Flavel, including the one that I just mentioned.

And you can also purchase Keeping the Heart, the

Puritan's View of How to Maintain Your Love for God, another book by John Flavel that you should get your hands on.

Both are very reasonably priced, and I would urge you to get a hold of those.

And of course, you've just won a free copy, as I may have mentioned, of The Broken -Hearted Evangelist by our guest,

Jeremy Walker. Thank you very much for participating in the program. Now, there is an interesting thing about evangelism that not only involves evangelizing the lost,

Jeremy, but although I think that too many reformed people are preoccupied with winning people who are already regenerate but Arminian, they're preoccupied with winning those people to the doctrines of sovereign grace or reformed theology or Calvinism, however you want to label it.

Although there is too many people doing that, perhaps, that is still something that is important, is it not?

Because truth is truth. We should never be afraid to explain the truth to our

Arminian friends and loved ones and family members. We should be prepared to defend the truth.

These truths are not unimportant. They're not something that don't have any impact on evangelism and other important things that the

Christians face and the things that are involved in Christian duty. But this is an area that we have to have boldness as well and have broken -heartedness for those who have embraced false teachings, should we not?

Yeah, I think in a sense it's all an expression of a God -like and Christ -like love, that we don't just want to bring people into the kingdom.

We do want to bring them on in the kingdom. I think what you're describing there probably belongs more properly to the realm of teaching or instruction than evangelism.

I think we can readily acknowledge that we're not trying to necessarily win the soul of somebody to Christ.

We're simply trying to encourage someone who is in Christ to press on and to do so toward an ever more complete and mature understanding, whether that's with regard to the doctrines of grace, whether it has to do with the doctrine of the church, our doctrine of salvation, our doctrine of holiness.

All of these things are certainly not insignificant.

We can connect it, but we shouldn't confuse it with evangelizing.

The distinction, perhaps, Paul the Apostle brings it out clearly in 2 Timothy chapter 3, when he says to Timothy that, first of all, from childhood he's known the

Holy Scriptures, which are able to make him wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

That's the first and the great stage. That's the change by which a sinner is brought out of darkness into light.

And everyone, no matter how confused they might be about some things, who has genuinely confessed their sins and put their faith in the

Lord Jesus Christ, has obtained that salvation which is in him. But the same scripture which brings us to Christ in the first place is also given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness that the man of God may be complete, mature, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

So that the same scriptures which bring us to Christ also build us in Christ.

There's a connection, as you've clearly said. But I don't think that we should mistake a zeal to persuade other people that we are right with the zeal that desires to see people saved from sin and death and hell.

I know you're not suggesting that that's the case. I think, if anything, we should be a little embarrassed if we're more bold and zealous to sort out the people who are wrong to use that language than it would be to seek after those who are lost.

Right. And of course, sometimes those distinctions are blurred because you have some

Arminians and those who would profess to be our brethren in Christ that are so man -centered in their understanding of theology and the gospel that you're not even certain when speaking to them if they are truly born again.

They have a gospel that is so lopsided in man -centeredness and the weakness or impotence of God and the strength and power and sovereignty of man that you wonder, this person,

I don't even know if this person's saved. I mean, obviously, in times like that, you would have the evangelism and instruction combined, and that would, of course, go without saying for our

Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox friends. Sure, absolutely, that this good news that we proclaim, and I think this has been true in many times and places, and not just with regard to those who are,

I believe, self -evidently mistaken with regard to the truth of the

Scriptures. But yeah, absolutely, that work of pointing out error, if it's damning error, then that is the work of evangelism.

There's no doubt about that. But I also think it's worth remembering, too, that there can be a strict orthodoxy that lacks any spiritual vitality.

In fact, let's pick up right where you left off there when we return from the break. And we are going to a break right now.

If you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Don't go away. We'll be right back with Jeremy Walker right after these messages.

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That's linbrookbaptist .org. Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron returning to our interview now, and I want to, before I actually fully return to our discussion with Jeremy Walker, I have some announcements to make.

In fact, the last ad you heard, Linbrook Baptist Church, has something to do with it because Linbrook Baptist Church is one of the sponsors that enabled me to attend the upcoming

Philadelphia Conference on Reform Theology. It's going to be held this weekend,

April 28th through the 30th, at Proclamation Presbyterian Church in Bryn Mawr, Pennsylvania.

And the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals wants me to know that although the early registration discounts have ended last week,

I hope I didn't mislead anyone last Friday when I said that last Friday was the last day to register.

I misunderstood. That was only for the discount. You can register now, or I should say, you can walk in at the conference.

You'll just have to pay a larger fee for entrance at the conference.

But if you would like to join me, God willing, I will be there manning an exhibitor's booth for Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Thanks to Linbrook Baptist Church. Thanks to BatteryDepot .com. Thanks to our friends at the

Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals. And thanks to our friends who publish the

New American Standard Bible. The speakers at this conference include

Richard Phillips, Carl Truman, Daniel Doriani, and others. The theme is

Recovering the Essence of the Gospel. And again, it's this weekend, April 28th through the 30th, at Proclamation Presbyterian Church in Bryn Mawr, Pennsylvania.

For more details, go to AllianceNet .org, AllianceNet .org, and click on Events, and then click on the

Philadelphia Conference on Reform Theology. Also coming up in May, May through the first day of June, that's

Tuesday, May 30th through Thursday, June 1st, the Banner of Truth United States Ministers Conference is being held at the

Elizabethtown College in Elizabethtown, Pennsylvania. And God willing, I will be there as well as Banner of Truth has graciously invited me to attend, even though I am not a pastor.

I am looking forward to this event very much. The speakers include such notable folks as Joel Beeky, who is actually the founder of Reformation Heritage Books, the publishers of the book we are addressing today,

The Broken -Hearted Evangelist, by our guest Jeremy Walker. Also Jeff Thomas, who

I've had on this program before, William Vandewaard, Mark Johnston, many of you may remember my interviews with Mark Johnston.

Jonathan Master, I've also had on this program. Carlton Wynn and Ian Hamilton, and their theme is going to be

The Living and Enduring Word. If you'd like to find out more about how you can register for this conference, if you are a leader in the church, whether a pastor or deacon or have some other leadership role, the website is

BannerofTruth .org, BannerofTruth .org, click on Events, and then click on U .S. Ministers Conference.

Of course, if you are like our guest, Jeremy Walker, and you live in the United Kingdom, they also have several

U .K. ministers conferences listed that you can attend, so you could click on those to find out more about those conferences.

So I hope to see you, as many of you as possible, at the 2017

U .S. Ministers Conference in Elizabethtown, Pennsylvania, sponsored and held by the

Banner of Truth. And we are now returning to our discussion with Jeremy Walker, pastor of Maiden Bower Baptist Church of Crawley in West Sussex, England, and we are discussing the brokenhearted evangelist.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com,

and before I go to any more listener questions, Pastor Jeremy, you, before the break, were discussing something about dead orthodoxy.

We were talking about how those who were theologically reformed should not be ashamed or frightened to even seek to open the eyes, by God's grace, of our brethren in Christ who have aberrant theology or less than biblical theology, and we should be very bold in proclaiming the doctrines of grace, as long as we are not being arrogant about that and being filled with pride and conceit and so on.

But you were talking about dead orthodoxy, I believe, before we went to the break. If you could continue. Thank you,

Chris. My comment there was that while we should be deeply concerned for false teaching and for confusion, and that with regard to false teaching, what you might call damnable error or heresy, certainly there are things that if people get wrong, even though they might use the label of Christianity, it's not biblical

Christianity, that is, regardless of whatever claims people make, that's a matter where we need to preach the gospel to people.

Then there are genuine believers with whom we disagree, and with them it would be right for us to seek to show them a better way, as Priscilla and Aquila did with Apollos.

But at the same time, we mustn't ignore the fact that there are people, and it is possible to do this, who can sign up to strict biblical doctrinal orthodoxy, who can dot every i and cross every t, who can give an intellectual assent to the truth of the scripture, but who have never known the power of God for salvation, have never themselves put their faith in the

Lord Jesus Christ. And so it's one of the reasons why we need to be gospelers, why even in the regular ministry of the church, it is essential that the good news be proclaimed, not just as a way of exposing confusion or even hypocrisy, but as a way of encouraging, instructing, and enlivening the church.

Yeah, I love that new, what am

I thinking of, a new noun, maybe not be a new noun, but a not commonly heard noun that you just mentioned, gospeler.

I think that we should be, I know we should all be gospelers, and not be just content and satisfied that we ourselves are saved, and have the peace of mind in knowing that.

But if you really have a a regenerate heart, you're going to want to see the lost come to Christ and share that eternal peace, that perfect peace, that shalom that the blood of Christ can only bring.

And if you do not want to do that, if you're disinterested in doing that, or if you're not a gospeler, that is a good sign that you're not even regenerate at all, isn't it?

Absolutely, I think that's part of what it means to grow in the likeness of Jesus Christ, that he was a shepherd who came to seek and to save that which was lost.

And insofar as we have a Christ -like heart, it will include a genuine and an active compassion for those who are still outside the kingdom.

And this is the Christ who wept over Jerusalem because they were not willing to come to him that they might be saved.

We have a listener, I'm not 100 % sure if he's a first -time questioner, but perhaps he can correct me by email.

But his name is Charles in Fortville, Indiana. His question is, should we break fellowship with seasoned

Christians that do not evangelize, or leave a confessional church that does a lot of good things to give to the neighbors with hopes that they come in, but they don't share the gospel in their outreach, or they don't teach and encourage evangelism?

I guess he's speaking of people that maybe run soup kitchens and have very wonderful and biblical and God -honoring activities that seek to meet the physical needs of those around them, like James and his epistle commands that we do, but they don't teach the gospel.

They just basically run a soup kitchen and want to fill the bellies of those who are lost and be kind to them, but not necessarily actually take the risk of offending them by giving them the gospel.

What is your opinion on actually breaking fellowship with individuals who are leaving a church that does not evangelize?

Well, if that's a concrete problem for Charles or for anybody,

I would say the first thing you want to do is go and speak to your elders, to lay these matters, to lay your concerns before them.

It might be easier, actually, if it's okay, Chris, to deal with a sort of a second issue first, because I do think there is a danger that we sort of end up salving what in the

UK I'd sort of call our middle -class conscience. We've been good, we've done nice things, we've given people food and clothing, and with these they should be content.

And it's all too easy for us to persuade ourselves that we're doing generic good things, even things that have a root in gospel compassion, but that, and I don't know if you've found this yourself,

I can try and be nice to people, and they can be very good at training me to be nice enough to give on, go on giving what they would like, and nice enough not to tell them anything that they don't want to hear.

And I think there is a danger that we do fall into the trap of simply salving the conscience with good works that genuinely minister to people's bodies.

We get into this kind of tacit agreement that having sort of lobbed a bit of gospel at them, we won't do it again because it's not something that they want to hear.

And I think it is important that we ensure that our good works aren't a sort of a nasty bait -and -switch, that I've sucked someone in by offering them something, and now

I'm going to sort of hit them with a gospel brick. But at the same time, that we don't falsely distinguish between those things, we don't end up simply caring for men's bodies and neglecting their souls, either because of our own fears, or because of their resentment and resistance to the gospel.

So certainly, I think that's a constant danger whenever we're doing those kinds of things.

And then that really rolls on to the first part of the question. Do we break fellowship with people?

If they're God's people, I would say not. I think you'd want to encourage them, be an example to them.

If it's appropriate, instruct them. Perhaps find some that you can pray with.

There may be some people who are eager to do this, but don't have the same capacity as you have.

You think of Israel fighting the Amalekites. Moses wouldn't have been a great deal of use down in the valley with Joshua, and Joshua needed to get the sword out and do the business down in the valley.

But Joshua's fighting there, if you like, on a practical, physical front line, and Moses is up on the mountaintop with his assistants, and they're interceding in prayer with the mighty and gracious God.

So yeah, there may be people who are willing to pray for you as you do what they perhaps can't.

There may be people who've not thought about it, people who need to be encouraged, people who need to be instructed.

That's why I'd say go and speak to the elders. I would be very unhappy in an environment where there's either principled or practical resistance to any kind of faithful gospelling, but at the same time

I think that that's something that needs to be addressed and overcome, rather than simply to become frustrated and to turn your back.

There may be circumstances under which that becomes a legitimate response, but I'd be very slow to reach that conclusion.

If you're talking about a genuine congregation, that perhaps, for understandable if not responsible reasons, has lost their edge in that regard.

Well, thank you so much, Charles, and you have also won a free copy of the book we are addressing,

The Broken -Hearted Evangelist. Please give me your full name and your mailing address, and if you have never won a

New American Standard Bible before, we will ship that out along with the book.

Actually, Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service will ship that out to you, so keep your eye open for a package from CVBBS .com.

CV for Cumberland Valley, BBS for BibleBookService .com, and that is compliments of our friends at Reformation Heritage Books, and the

Bible will be compliments of our friends who publish the New American Standard Bible, who have been sponsoring our program since 2006, ever since we went on the air.

And thank you so much for joining us, and make sure you let me know whether or not you've ever received a

New American Standard Bible from us. We have, I believe, I'm almost certain this is a first -time questioner,

Benjamin in Dublin, Ireland. He says, forgive my late entrance tuning in.

Question, I attend a Reformed Presbyterian fellowship which is under the care of the denomination.

As a Reformed Baptist, should I be going out on the streets evangelizing when I'm not currently a member of a local church?

Very interesting question, because obviously he should be a member of a local church.

And number two, I'm sure, Jeremy, that one of the main factors in his question is, what kind of evangelism is he doing?

Like, for instance, I know a number of street preachers who

I highly regard and admire who believe that you should not actually be having, you should not be conducting a street preaching ministry, where you're actually in a specific vicinity or location, setting up, as it were, a podium and proclaiming the gospel as a minister of the gospel, as an evangelist of the gospel.

He does not believe, well, I should say the street preachers I know and respect do not believe you should be doing that specifically if you're not a member of a local church, and if you're not doing it with the encouragement of the local church who are actually sending you out there, or at least agreeing to your being out there doing that.

There's a difference between that and the kind of public evangelism every Christian should be doing, man, woman, or child, when they are spreading the gospel to every acquaintance or person that they providentially meet.

Those are two different things, but perhaps you could comment on what I said in the question of Benjamin Dublin.

Okay, well, let me begin by saying that I have the dearest of friends amongst the

Reformed Presbyterians in Northern Ireland, so nothing that follows should be in any way construed as an attack upon them, and again, perhaps,

Chris, if I can take your part of the question first. I think if you look at the

Scriptures, it's entirely clear that the work of evangelizing is the work of the local church.

It's the work of the church generally. It's the work of the local church particularly. I think that's demonstrable, not just in terms of the

Great Commission, but also the practical carrying out of that mission.

Even Paul, first of all, alongside of Barnabas, and then with Silas, and then with Timothy, he is sent out under the auspices of the church at Antioch, and when he does his work, it is to the church at Antioch that he goes back.

That the church is God's appointed institution for the carrying out of the mission that God has given to his people.

So I think, and this is where it begins to tie back into the question that Benjamin had, that I think properly and healthily, evangelism springs out of the local church.

One of the reasons for that is because when someone is converted, they ought to be baptized and come into membership of the local church.

Otherwise, you leave them in a sort of a churchless limbo. Christ's command is to make disciples, to baptize them, and then to teach them all things that he has commanded them.

And I think that that command in itself not only implies, but demands healthy local churchmanship.

So I think certainly evangelizing ought to be carried out under the oversight and care of a healthy local church.

Now the issue that Benjamin raises is that he cannot in good conscience become a member of that congregation, because they are

Presbyterian, Pedobaptist brothers, and his convictions are for what's sometimes called credo -baptism, that we baptize those who make a credible profession of faith, and that we don't sprinkle infants.

So obviously there's a challenge there. I think that if Benjamin has a good relationship with that congregation, and they themselves are engaged in witnessing,

I think I could with good conscience participate in that in some measure.

But I would actually say that if we're in an environment where there is no church which we are persuaded is biblical in these kinds of regards, then one of the questions that we ought to raise is whether or not under God and perhaps with the oversight of other congregations that would share our convictions, we ought to be trying to plant such a congregation.

And someone says, well, you know, isn't there already a church where the gospel's being preached?

Yeah, fine, go and find a place where it isn't. And I'd wager you can probably do that within a stone's throw, well maybe not, that's an exaggeration, but not too far away.

There's very, very rarely is our problem with regard to evangelizing that we've run out of people to talk to.

So I don't think it's a complete non -starter,

Benjamin, to be speaking to people of Christ under the care of that particular congregation if that's where at this moment the

Lord has put him. But I think that there are other considerations that he ought to be taking into account.

And then with regard to the means that we use, I think the Lord has provided us both with a measure of holy constraint in terms of the means that we employ, but also a degree of proper liberty that within those broad constraints that we need to take account of our own character, circumstances, graces, and gifts, the particular opportunities that the

Lord gives us or that we can properly make to preach the gospel to every creature.

Now, how and where and when and why we're doing that, some of that may differ depending on, as I say, our individual circumstances.

But I don't think that there are many Christians who cannot make or take some opportunities to make

Christ known. Amen. And if I'm not mistaken, it's possible that Benjamin is speaking about a fellowship that I was informed about by a guest of mine that's been on this program a number of times,

Paul Flynn, who is with Megiddo Films in Dublin.

And he informed me that there was a fellowship of the

Reformed Presbyterian Church in Dublin that is not literally a church or a congregation.

He may be talking about the fact that he can't join it because it's not really a church with the biblically ordained officers and the ordinances administered and so on.

And in that case, it may be that they are themselves basically an evangelistic outreach.

Right. That in itself is effectively a church planting endeavor, which again changes the dynamics slightly of the question.

I can't speak for my brothers among the Reformed Presbyterians as to how they perceive that work and where it stands and where it's going.

So I want to be a bit wary about making assessments and judgments. But if it's not yet a sort of a constituted congregation in that formal sense, then

I imagine it is itself considered to be, at least in some degree, a church planting work or an evangelistic outreach.

In which case, as I say, the goalposts shift slightly once again. Right. And by the way,

Benjamin, I didn't mean to be—I hope I wasn't rude or didn't sound rude when I said you should be a member of a church, as if it was always such an easy thing to do, because I don't know what your circumstances are, where you live, in regard to the closest faithful church.

But obviously that is, though, a duty of every Christian to be a member of a local church and to be subject to the oversight of elders and so on.

I'm assuming you would agree with that, my brother Jeremy? Yeah, absolutely.

I think, again, it's so hard to say, isn't it, that we want to say that there is an ideal situation, and yet many of the situations in which

God's people find themselves are not ideal. And yet at the same time, that doesn't become an excuse for us to neglect any particular duty.

So, yeah, it's what we're legitimately and properly aiming at.

And as you say, there are circumstances in which we find ourselves where we say, well, actually, yeah,

I wouldn't start from here. Well, this is where we are, and we have to begin with what we've got and do what we can to serve and honor

God in the environment where He's put us. And I'm confident that that's something that Benjamin would say yes to.

Well, we're going to our final break right now. If anybody would like to join us, this is the time to do it. Our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

chrisarnsen at gmail .com. And I know that there are a number of people still waiting to have their questions asked and answered, so hopefully we'll be able to get to all of you before we run out of time.

And if you intend to ask a question, do it now, please, at chrisarnsen at gmail .com, chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

Don't go away. God willing, we are going to be right back after these messages with Jeremy Walker.

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Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen. If you just tuned us in, our guest today for the last 90 minutes and the next half hour to come has been and will be

Jeremy Walker, pastor of Maiden Bower Baptist Church of Crawley in West Sussex, England, and we are discussing his book,

The Broken -Hearted Evangelist, published by Reformation Heritage Books. If you'd like to join us on the air, now is the time to do it because we're running out of time.

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. And we do have, let's see, we have

Joe in Slovenia who says, Brother Chris, aren't we supposed to focus on methodologies, tactics, presentations, styles, and all the other strategies that we've inherited from the revivalists who came on the scene toward the end of the

Second Great Awakening, who have dominated on this topic up until our present day?

Of course, I'm being facetious. Please ask Brother Jeremy to compare and contrast what he has written with the general mechanical and programmatic approaches to evangelism that have been prevalent in our churches for decades.

Brother Jeremy. Well, I hope if this

Slovenian brother were to read the book, he would see that this is not a programmatic attempt or an attempt to identify or provide some kind of program.

I think what he's probably referring to is what might have been called classically something like Phineasm, and it is typically an

Arminian methodology, although again, some who are or would call themselves Calvinists are not immune to this, that there are some, sometimes you think, okay, we've got a, you might have a declaration of a

Calvinist doctrine of salvation, but you've essentially got a very Arminian looking or sounding mode of evangelizing in which essentially you are relying on something that is fundamentally carnal, by which

I mean something that is humanly constructed. And essentially your working assumption is that if I put the right ingredients in at the beginning of this machine, and I crank the handle long enough and at the right speed, then this process will automatically produce either conversions or at the very least professions of faith.

So you might, for example, have things like, well, we need the right kind of music, maybe something with a bit of a soft wash on it, we need a few, the right power cords at the right time, we need the right kind of lighting, we need somebody who's got the right look, the right sound, the right tone, who can use the right arguments, who can ratchet up the pressure, and fundamentally you can end up with something that is compelling on a surface level, and that can elicit from people some kind of response.

But that response is extremely unlikely, apart from, as ever, the particular grace of God, to be what we might call a saving response.

And so you'll often end up with people who say, well, you know, I got converted this time, and then that time, and then the other time, and I dedicated myself on that occasion, and then

I rededicated myself this time. What's actually happening? What I'm trying to set forth in this book is a call, an encouragement to preach the gospel in all its purity and clarity, recognizing that it is something that is obnoxious to the natural man, that there is an offense in the gospel, that it's foolishness to the

Greeks, it's to those who think themselves wise with regard to this world, it's scandalous to the

Jews, and the modern category would be people who essentially think that they are righteous by means of their own efforts and endeavors.

It is the power of God to salvation, and we should speak it without shame, recognizing that when

God comes powerfully and works by his Spirit through the preaching of the

Word, that people are cut to the heart, and the outcome of that is either that they bend the knee to the

Lord Jesus Christ, or they try and kill the person who's telling them the truth. Well, thank you,

Joe, in Slovenia, and thank you for giving us an American address where your daughter lives in Georgia, where we can mail you the last copy of the book that we have been addressing,

The Broken -Hearted Evangelist by Jeremy Walker, published by Reformation Heritage Books.

So have your daughter keep her eye open in the mail for a book or a package from cvbbs .com.

That's C -V for Cumberland Valley, B -B -S for Bible Book Service dot com.

C -V -B -B -S dot com. And we thank Todd and Patty Jennings, who own and operate

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, for their loyalty and faithfulness and generosity to Iron Trump and Zion Radio, by mailing out all the winners in our audience, their free

Bibles, books, and CDs and DVDs and other things that they win by submitting questions.

And we have, let's see, we have Aaron in Indianapolis, Indiana, who says,

Thank you for this great, yet convicting discussion. While I contribute to missionary endeavors, I am convicted by my lack of evangelism for various reasons.

Yet I long to see loved ones and even strangers come to Christ. What are some ways that Mr.

Walker begins conversations to turn them toward giving the gospel that might be helpful?

I think she means, what are some of the ways that Pastor Walker begins conversations to turn people toward receiving the gospel?

But anyway, if you could comment. Yeah, that's a great question.

And I think she's put a finger on a particular challenge, which is that it can actually be easier to speak to a relative stranger about the gospel than a relative.

Often when we speak to somebody, for example, passing by on the street, if we're engaging that kind of witness, there's almost a safety of thinking, well,

I might never see this person. Right. There may be no negative ramifications to this evangelism.

Absolutely. It's a bit of a hit and run. Whereas if I'm speaking to my husband or wife or my parents or my children or a brother or a sister or a neighbor,

I've got to get up and look them in the eye the next day, or I'm conscious that the consistency of my living before them is either going to commend or expose the message that I'm proclaiming.

And that, I think, is a challenge. But at the same time, those relationships, if they're relationships that we've labored to ensure are godly from our sides, that ought to, under God, provide a platform for that kind of faithful and compassionate witness.

Now, how that then works in practice depends on any number of things.

For example, Peter talks to godly women who have unconverted husbands and talks about the gracious and humble disposition that, by God's blessing, might be a means of winning their husbands to Jesus Christ.

And Peter actually says that it can be done in that instance without a word.

I don't think he's sort of saying that it happens by a process of bizarre holy osmosis, which is like it just seeps into somebody.

There will come a point at which such a man would need to hear the gospel. But there is something that is persuasive in simply the disposition of a wife under those circumstances.

So I think the way that I would sit down with an old friend that I haven't seen for years would be different from the way that I deal with my unconverted children in family worship, or when we're just chatting over the dinner table.

It would be different, again, from what happens when I'm preaching in the open air. It would be different, again, from what happens when

I'm knocking on someone's door in our community. So I think one of the things that I would encourage under these circumstances, and I don't mean this to sound foolishly pietistic.

We do have a promise that if anyone lacks wisdom, we should ask. And I think that is vital, that we should be praying to the

Lord God that he would instruct us, that he would enable us, that he would equip us for this work.

And I think, like the Apostle Paul, we're asking, what can

I do to appropriately adapt to my circumstances? I don't think that that is compromise.

I don't particularly like the language of contextualization, but I think there is a righteous accommodation.

What can I... And in Paul's context, it's essentially, what might

I need to give up? What liberties might I suspend in order that I can more effectively proclaim the gospel to these people?

So if it's a cold contact, if you like, then it might be a matter of introducing myself, but cutting quickly to the chase, telling people who

I am and why I'm there and what message I bring. If it's somebody who knows me well and perhaps already knows that I'm a true

Christian, that it might be a question of waiting for an appropriate opportunity or trying to carve one out.

It might be building up a relationship with somebody that you see day by day or week by week.

You always go to the same barber. You always fill up with gas, with petrol at a particular place.

You build up a sort of a relationship and out of that may come an opportunity to speak about the

Lord Christ. Perhaps you have a chance to show somebody that you are genuinely different and then an opportunity to explain why that's the case.

So there's any number of things, I think, in those regards. But prayerfully and carefully think about how you can winsomely but honestly present the truth as it is in Jesus.

I think that would be the underlying counsel that I would give. And the other thing

I'd say in that respect, find someone who's good at it and learn from them.

It's one of the most profitable means of learning how to do this at all or learning how to do it better is to shadow somebody who by God's grace has either or both and gift and experience in this regard.

See how they do it and in the best sense imitate them as they also imitate

Christ. Well, thank you, Aaron, for the very good question. Keep spreading the word about Iron Sharpens Iron radio in Indianapolis and beyond.

We have Ronald in Eastern Suffolk County, Long Island, New York, who says, please forgive me.

I did not hear the earlier part of the program, but I was wondering if you could really define specifically with detail what you mean by brokenheartedness.

Yeah, that's a good question. I try and do that at some length in the book as a whole.

The root of that language comes from the example out of which

I've developed this material, which is David is crying out to God, creating me a clean heart or God and renew a steadfast spirit within me.

Do not cast me away from your presence and do not take your Holy Spirit from me. Restore to me the joy of your salvation and uphold me with your generous spirit.

Then I will teach transgressors your ways and sinners shall be converted to you.

And in the psalm, David goes on to speak about a broken spirit, a broken and a contrite heart as expressive of his state and condition as he writes these words.

And my point in dealing with this is that here is a man who is, his primary qualification is not that he's a king, not that he's a prophet, not that he's a poet, but that he himself is a repenting and redeemed sinner.

And that that is in fact the best qualification and the finest platform upon which we stand in order to make

Christ known, that it situates us with insight, compassion, urgency, that having tasted for ourselves and seeing that the

Lord is good, we can tell others blessed is everyone who trusts in him. Amen.

And we have Bebe in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, who says, I love the title of the book,

The Broken Hearted Evangelist, but do you not think that many in our day, perhaps especially from the non -reformed camps of Christianity, manipulate or seek to manipulate the emotions of those who are hearing their message and they manufacture their own broken heartedness and have a fake emotionalism that is their means to which to draw people to Christ?

Yeah, that's certainly a danger. I think somewhere in Spurgeon's lectures to his students, he talks about a man who had written in the margin of his sermon,

Weep Here. That's abominable.

At the same time, if we are taken up with these truths, and if we feel them, then in accordance with the particular disposition that the

Lord has given to us, it would not be wrong.

And in fact, it would be wrong not to have some proper emotional response in the very offer of the gospel to others.

That shouldn't be whipped up carnally. It's not a matter of wrapping onions in your handkerchief and dabbing your eyes.

But if you think of Paul, night and day, three years, warning you even with tears, you think of Christ weeping over Jerusalem.

You think of the Psalmist talking about rivers of from his eyes because men did not keep the law of God.

As evangelists, it's our humanity that ought to be taken up with this.

If it doesn't touch our emotions in the right and legitimate and appropriate sense, taking into account the redeemed humanity that God in his kindness has given us, then we're doing something wrong.

But if that becomes mere emotionalism or manipulation, then yes, we've certainly crossed the line.

Well, I definitely want to have you back to continue this theme. In fact, if you could stay on the phone just for a minute after the show is over so I could reschedule you, or should

I say schedule you for your next interview, if you are interested in that. I'd really like to go through what appears to be the litmus tests of broken heartedness in your book, which are am

I willing, am I effective, am I committed, am I focused, and am

I fruitful. I think that this would be very valuable if we have you return to discuss those very chapter headings in your book.

But before we run out of time here, I would like you to have three or four minutes of uninterrupted time to summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today,

Jeremy. Well, it'd be a privilege to come back,

Chris, God willing, and to try and look at some of those things in more detail. In terms of a parting shot, as it were,

I think I might go back, and certainly not as a means of scoring points, but Calvin opens his institutes, and I should say, by the way, that if you want a sense of some fine evangelistic preaching, then reading some of the recently translated sermons, and the older translated sermons of John Calvin, you will see, as I say, the proper marriage between those sorts of convictions and the words and the deeds that it produces.

Calvin, at the beginning of the institutes, talks about a true knowledge of God and of ourselves, providing the environment in which true religion grows.

So there's a sense in which, as we look up to God and all his majesty and glory and excellence and beauty, and then we look at ourselves in our natural misery and emptiness and sinfulness, that it's in that space between that a true and biblical religion, properly informed by God's revelation, begins to grow.

And that's not just true with regard, first of all, to conversion, where we see our need of a savior, but I think it's continually true with regard to our life as believers and our labor as Christians.

And I think it's in that space that broken -hearted evangelizing ought to begin and to continue, that as we see the majesty, the grace, the goodness, the glory of God, that that should compel us in the best sense to go and make his name known among the nations, to speak to people near and far about the truth as it is in Jesus.

And that our own sense, first of all, of our need of that salvation, and then our delight in that salvation, and then our desire to make that salvation known, that it really is by seeing these things, both in the light of God's glory, and then our need ourselves, and then the need of the world at large for these truths, that we will find ourselves,

I hope, stirred, encouraged, compelled in our appropriate sphere, using whatever graces and gifts the

Lord has given us, making and taking the appropriate opportunities, that it's in that kind of feeling and knowing that we will become properly effective evangelists.

And effective here, I mean, first and foremost, the faithful proclamation of that truth concerning God's salvation by Jesus Christ, with the hopeful anticipation that God in his own time, in his own way, by his appointed means, will be pleased to get glory to his name by saving sinners.

Amen. And if anybody living in the UK or visiting the UK would like to visit the church where Pastor Jeremy pastors, go to the website of Maiden Bower Baptist Church to find out more information, mabach .org,

mabach .org. A trick to remember it would be as if Johann Sebastian Bach was living in Massachusetts, so mabach, mabach .org.

Anybody wanting to look for books that have been written by Jeremy Walker, go to cvbbs .com,

cv for Cumberland Valley, bbs .com. I hope you all always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater

Savior than you are a sinner. We look forward to hearing from you tomorrow on Iron Shepard's Iron Radio.