Intense Debate With A Mormon

Apologia Studios

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

00:00

disciples. I got a bit of a jiggle neck. That's a joke,

00:07

Pastor. When we have the real message of truth, we cannot let somebody say they're speaking truth when they're not.

00:29

What's up, guys? Welcome back to another episode of Apologia Radio, coming at you guys from Phoenix, Arizona, right now from Apologia Studios.

00:38

Joined in studio today by some very special guests right now. If you guys want to get more, you can go to ApologiaStudios .com,

00:46

ApologiaStudios .com, and you can get more there. Television shows, radio shows, podcasts, and after shows, and Apologia Academy.

00:53

So make sure you guys go there and check it out. Grateful for you guys all to be with us right now live. We are doing a live stream today,

00:59

Apologia Radio, with our special guests, and we'll encourage you, if you're watching this right now, to share this across your social media platforms and let everyone know.

01:07

So I'll introduce our guests right now. One you know very, very well. He is Dr. James White with Alpha and Omega Ministries.

01:15

You guys know him very, very well. Been on our show many, many times. Encourage you guys to go to aomen .org to get more.

01:21

Dr. White, welcome to the show. Good to be here. And our very special guest who flew all the way out from Salt Lake City to be with us in Arizona.

01:30

I gotta ask this real fast. What's the difference in weather right now between Salt Lake and Phoenix? Salt Lake feels beautiful right now, and Phoenix feels like a sauna in Hades.

01:39

It's very good. It's very good. So a special guest today from Salt Lake City.

01:45

Honored to have him with us today. We were able to get him out. I flew in yesterday and leaving, actually turning back around this afternoon, and his name is

01:54

Kwaku. Yes. Actually, you have a number of names, to tell the truth, but Kwaku is one of them.

01:59

I have a very long name, but yeah, Kwaku L. I do the show

02:07

Three Mormons, however. I can't represent Three Mormons, just because the other hosts, we have different views on things.

02:14

So I'm here representing myself as a Latter -day Saint. Yes, and we're grateful to have you. Not a

02:19

Mormon. Not anymore. In fact, what are you gonna do with the name of the show? So I want to call it

02:25

Three Saints, but that seems too Catholic, but maybe that's a way to trick them into, you know, joining.

02:33

But honestly, it just depends on, you know, what the further announcements are. If they say, hey, you know, if Mormon Newsroom and Motab say, then

02:40

I might. That came really close to almost sounding like a revelation. The Lord impressed upon my heart.

02:46

That was... Well, he's the Prophet. There you go. I think it was a serious and important distinction, because we're not

02:54

Mormons, and the Book of Mormon has a beautiful passage, or talks about, you know, the name of the church, and if it's named after Moses, it's

03:00

Moses' church. So we're not Mormons' church. You guys ain't gonna be able to use any nicknames at all. It's just a shame.

03:06

Well, we ain't gonna change anything, I'll be honest. But what do you do with Mormon .org? Like, isn't that...

03:12

Here's what I think. This is Kwaku's prediction, that is based off of nothing but myself, but they may change the name of it, but they'll keep the hyperlink.

03:21

So you just type in Mormon .org, it'll just redirect you to whatever the new... Right. So we can just keep all those things.

03:26

That's just, I think. My prediction is two years from now, we'll be doing... Oh, that... I remember that. Yeah, I forgot. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

03:32

Because that's what happened right before the Olympics. It happened before, right? It did. Yeah, it did happen before. Well, at any rate, so we had a little bit of interaction a couple of weeks ago, where Dr.

03:43

White and I responded to some of the comments made on the Three Mormons show, and so as a result of that, we were able to make a connection.

03:50

And I just want to say to you that I am very, very grateful for you being here. I consider it an honor, but I also highly respect someone like yourself, traveling all the way to Phoenix to come and to be on this show with Christians who have critiqued what you have said.

04:10

I mean this truly, and I say this often, I believe flattery is a sin, so I want you to know how I feel about this.

04:15

I think it's a very respectable and really a glorious thing that you're willing to come all the way out here to be on the show with us to discuss these important issues, because what

04:24

I've tended to see over the last 20 years is a shift away from the kind of thing that you're willing to do, which is to engage with other believers and to get down to the mat and to talk about these things.

04:36

I've seen a lot of the younger Mormons unwilling to do the sorts of courageous things that you're doing right now, so even in the midst of my very, very violent disagreements with your theology,

04:46

I want you to know that I have a great deal of respect and honor for you and for the fact that you're here today.

04:51

Well, thank you for letting me come on, and actually I wanted to touch on that, just on the

04:58

Latter -day Saints not wanting to talk sometimes with evangelicals. I actually talked about this right before I came, and people want to know why.

05:06

I think the the reason is people don't start off conversations in a reasonable way, usually.

05:15

So online, if you'll see, I'll have people who'll message, and I'll be like, hey, listen, you magic underwear wearing cultist, why don't you?

05:21

And they go, well, I don't respond, and they're like, well, why aren't you responding to me? So I think a lot of the times, if people start out in a way that's just silly, of course no one's gonna want to have a dialogue, so you have to start out with, let's just talk, and I think even in some of the comment sections of the post that were advertising this, some of the people were saying some things that were kind of wacky, and I'm saying, well, that right there, that's usually why

05:46

Latter -day Saints don't come and do these sort of shows. Social media has poisoned everything, but there has been a major change, because I started going out to the

05:56

Mormon temple before you were born, and the young men who were 13 or 14 years of age would come up to me and want to discuss

06:08

Bible passages on the plurality of gods. Yeah. That doesn't happen today, and there were 3 .7

06:16

million members back then, a whole lot more now. I've seen a huge development and change in that time period that you couldn't possibly have seen, but I've seen it, and if it makes you feel any better being in the lion's den,

06:31

I've been on KTKK radio, in studio, in Salt Lake City, with a

06:36

Mormon attorney as the host, two BYU professors across the table from me, and every caller was a

06:42

Mormon. So I've done the same thing up in Salt Lake that you're doing.

06:47

Well, you know, I think it just comes down to two things. Well, one, generations are just different than each other. It's not like, it's just people emphasize different things.

06:55

But I don't know if I fully agree, because I'll talk to people I know at BYU, and I know most of my friends are young Latter -day

07:02

Saints, and we talk about plurality of gods, we talk about eternal progression, you know, God being exalted, things like that.

07:08

I don't think it's gone away. We talk about it on our show, and it comes up probably every single day. So I, at least in my experience in 2018, being a young Latter -day

07:16

Saint and doing a show for young Latter -day Saints, it comes up quite a bit.

07:21

I don't think it's gone, not at all. I'm not saying that the doctrine isn't gone. What I'm saying is that the discussion of it, it's, we used to literally have a line of people waiting to talk to us outside the general conference.

07:35

You almost have to trip people to get them to talk with you anymore. Well, that's the thing. So, that's changed. I bet,

07:40

I bet if you, if you went up next general conference, and you, you just, you, you weren't grouped in with the crazy people with the signs.

07:49

That's, that's sort of impossible to avoid. If, because they are there. Oh, believe me, I know. I go, oh, you're one of them.

07:55

I was there, I was there the first year they showed up. So I, we had done it for 18 years. You've been, you've been made weird bedfellows with them, even though you've got nothing to do with them.

08:02

Even though they hate us, actually, more than they hate you guys. So we've had run -ins with them. But anyways, that's neither here nor there,

08:09

Jeff. You're, you're, you're in charge. Yeah, okay. Yeah. So, so what we wanted to do was do something, we talked just a bit yesterday, that would be beneficial for our hearers.

08:18

So we thought it'd be good to, to leave aside the peripheral things, the non -essential things, and just focus in upon the core.

08:26

So Dr. White and I chatted a bit about, you know, what might that look like? What might we touch? And then when we spoke yesterday, you, you talked about all the same things.

08:33

Those are the main issues. So the issues of authority, Scripture, the authority of Scripture. Who is

08:39

God? How does someone come to know God? But all that obviously comes down to authority.

08:45

What's your foundation? And so I think that we can probably try to circle around those as the main issues.

08:51

Questions about God. Is God an exalted man? Who is a, is a resurrected man?

08:57

Who has a God before him? Who had a God before him? Is there potential for human beings to go through the process of exaltation and become gods and goddesses themselves?

09:09

Is that what the Bible teaches? Is that anywhere close to the biblical definition of God and description of God?

09:14

Is that how God's disclosed himself to us? And the other thing, of course, is the gospel itself. So I think we should probably start there at the, the question of authority.

09:22

So I'll, I'll let whoever wants to start, maybe bring in the start of the discussion. Yeah. Well, let me just put this on the table and go from there.

09:31

I'm looking at Isaiah chapter 44 verse 6, and there's two directions we can go from this.

09:37

So let me just, just put it out there. Thus says Yahweh.

09:43

Now I know that you have a quad over there, and so you've got a King James Version of Bible. I have the Hebrew in front of me at the moment.

09:49

And the name Jehovah, of course, is L -O -R -D in all caps in the, in the King James Version of Bible.

09:55

I'm sure you're aware of that. Thus says Jehovah, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, Yahweh, Jehovah of hosts,

10:04

I am the first and I am the last, and besides me there is no Elohim.

10:11

Now, we can go two directions with this. First is the consistent testimony of Scripture to the fact that there is only one

10:19

God, Yahweh Elohim. That both those terms are used of one, one deity 535 times as a joint name in the

10:29

Old Testament. Or we can go, depending on what your personal perspective is, as to why after the 2700 years these words would be authoritative to us.

10:47

In other words, a fundamental question of the preservation of these words in the original language, translation into the

10:57

English language. Are these, do these words remain normative for the

11:04

Christian in this age, or is there an authority above these words?

11:10

And I think we can go either, either direction. I think they're both fruitful and are both relevant to the issue.

11:17

Yeah, well one, I want to say you have a voice like a nice cup of warm milk. It is, it is very soothing. In other words, you fell asleep halfway through what

11:26

I said. Okay, I get it. I grew up doing radio. Okay. From the time

11:32

I was 16, yeah. Very impressive. Here's, I think the issue isn't, isn't translation.

11:38

It isn't, it isn't the transmission of it. I think that you're approaching it from a perspective of Middle Ages European revisionist history of an ancient

11:48

Semitic culture. And that's, that's an issue I see. And I see that issue from our evangelical brothers and sisters all the time.

11:57

It's very common to take passages in Isaiah, and really all throughout the Old Testament, and even some of the

12:02

New Testament where, you know, no gods beside me. Hero is real, the Lord, our God is one

12:07

Lord. Neshma. Yeah. Oh, I'm sorry? Neshma. I ordered that the other day at the cafeteria.

12:16

There you go. But even, like to see what you got when you ordered it. Even, so even, you know, in Latter -day

12:22

Scriptures, hear O ye heavens and give ear O ye earth and rejoice the inhabitants thereof for the Lord is God, beside him there is no

12:28

Savior. I think though, the issue I see is that these scriptures are taken out of their ancient context.

12:36

The reality is, in the same time period, and in the surrounding cultures,

12:43

I can find, I keep hitting this mic, I can find quotes from other religions that use this exact same language.

12:51

And I'm sure you're both familiar with a lot of Jewish scholarship that's very, very clear, especially in 2018, that the

12:59

Godhead, or the nature of God, and the idea of plurality of gods, the way we see it with monotheism, polytheism, the mainline

13:08

Christian view of that topic is not the view they had in the biblical era. It just isn't.

13:14

I think a good example is that, you know, the the tale of Sunni from the Middle Kingdom. This is about the

13:20

Pharaoh Senwoset, I hope I'm saying that right, the first. He is a God without equal, with none in existence preceding him.

13:26

The great Kairo hymn to Amun -Ra, unique one, like whom among the gods, literally, like whom of the gods? You were the sole one who made all that exist, one alone, who made that which is, singly unique, without his second.

13:36

I mean, you can go on and on and on. You can find that the exact same language shown in the Bible of no gods beside me, before me, or after me, is the exact same language these very clearly polytheistic societies from the same time period use.

13:51

That isn't a coincidence. They use the same language, and we know that the Jews of the Old Testament were not monotheists in the way that we see it today.

13:58

Really. They just weren't. Yeah, that's a very common mythology in scholarship, but it's a mythology, it's based upon a fundamental rejection of what you believe is

14:07

Latter -day Saint, and that's what I find strange, that people at BYU and things like that embrace our forms of liberalism without recognizing that it's absolute poison to your fundamental belief in the

14:20

Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, Prophecy, and the Price, because certainly Joseph Smith and the early leaders of the

14:26

Church did not embrace the kind of documentary hypothesis -based idea that allows you to atomize the text of the

14:33

Old Testament, and say, well, sure, there are some texts that sound monotheistic, but then you've got these over here, and you don't have to take them as a whole.

14:43

That would end up destroying the reason, for example, why 17 chapters of the

14:48

Book of Isaiah end up quoted almost verbatim from the King James Version of the Bible in the Book of Mormon. That was not the argument of the early

14:56

LDS Church, they were not utilizing our German liberals as BYU is now.

15:03

So what has changed? And I would just simply respond that believing

15:08

Christian scholarship has answered that unbelieving skeptical scholarship, and points out that, for example, quotations from Egyptian lore, where the gods are derived from the created order, has to be a completely different context than if you take seriously the

15:29

Tanakh, the Torah, the Nevi 'im, and the Ketuvim as a whole, that what separates

15:35

Yahweh from all the gods of the peoples is that He created all things.

15:41

In fact, he says in Jeremiah chapter 10, if your God did not create the worlds and the heavens, then

15:48

He will pass away from the worlds and the heavens. So there is a huge chasm between having a

15:54

God who is the source and origin of all things, and having a God that you're saying is highly exalted but came out of these things.

16:04

No, no, so we're, I'm not saying He came out of those things. No, I'm saying the Egyptians did. Okay, great.

16:09

Well, I think there's a bit of a misrepresentation, so I'm not saying, nor do

16:15

I think early Latter -day Saint leaders were saying that these other gods, you know, are even real, or that they were actual gods.

16:26

I'm just saying that. We know that, yeah. I wasn't saying that you were. I was simply saying I don't understand why you would make reference to the

16:33

Egyptians. Because it's so important to do that, because the quotes of the Bible, when you look at them in their ancient context, you see the exact languages used with surrounding cultures, so it is not a coincidence.

16:47

You have to look at that and say, okay, well if they're saying it this way, no gods before me, and we're saying these are monotheists, but then these polytheists are saying the exact same thing.

16:55

What's the issue here? Why are they all employing this language? What is the issue? And there's nothing wrong with using that argument at all.

17:01

What is the issue? The issue is that the biblical teaching is that Yahweh creates all things, whereas these other religions teach that their gods were derived from the creation itself.

17:18

I think that's a little, I think that's off road, though. That's off road of the context of the quotes itself, if you, because I'm saying the idea, okay, there are no other gods, only

17:28

God alone, that's it. There's the only God that exists in the universes, but we're saying, okay, if this is true in the, if the ancient context of that matches exactly the later

17:41

European, what I call revisionist history of it, then why on earth are other societies quoting and using that same language, if they are polytheists?

17:50

We should see a big separation, and we know from history, no, no, I mean with those quotes, they would not employ that same language, and we know from history, like again,

17:59

I say, we know from history that the Jews of the Old Testament were not the monotheists in the American -European sense of the word, they just weren't.

18:07

We happen to know that they believe that there is only one true God, Yahweh and Elohim. They covenanted with one

18:12

God, but they believed in multiple. No, I believe that's completely wrong. I don't. I guess that's where we have to disagree,

18:18

I think. Well, but one of us can allow all of the Old Testament scripture to speak as a harmony.

18:25

I can, yeah. The people that you are relying upon for this idea of inserting polytheism into a monotheistic text do not believe that the

18:36

Old Testament scriptures are consistent. Do you know what the Graf Wilhelsen theory is? I'm assuming you're gonna tell me, so.

18:42

I'm just asking because it's fundamental basic, it's fundamentally basic to understanding

18:48

Old Testament scholarship that you are relying upon right now. And see, long ago

18:55

I went to Fuller Theological Seminary, which was way off to my left. I was much more conservative. California, yeah.

19:01

Well, not just left, as in over there, the left coast, but theologically to the left. And so all of my

19:07

Old Testament instruction was in this, what you're quoting. So I know what the arguments are, and that's why

19:15

I said from the beginning, I find it odd that Latter -day

19:20

Saints would utilize this kind of stuff. And in fact, I will even make the assertion that I think it is the entrance of this worldview through BYU into the mainstream of Mormonism that is resulting in the major changes that we're seeing right now, and we'll see in the future.

19:36

I really think they would, I really think that's where it's coming from. Those are three different water balloons, but the first one is that, again,

19:45

I just have to disagree. I think the Old Testament, of course we can be textual and we can look at what it's saying, and I think it makes a very, very clear, obvious case that there is one

19:58

God to us, but ancient context, the Jews did not deny the existence of several gods.

20:03

They made a covenant with one, similar to what we do in the temple. And I think that is verified by not only, yes, you can find left -leaning

20:09

Christian scholarship and right -leaning, but also the same in Judaism. We can find left -leaning Jewish scholarship and right -leaning that confirm that.

20:16

This isn't just a Mormon conspiracy. It is very well laid out, and you know, you may have discovered it in your college days years and years ago.

20:25

I don't know how old you are, probably 32, but you've probably, but the reality is just because you in college looked at it doesn't mean that it's completely cast out.

20:33

It's very well documented that this is the historical case, and I would venture to say it's a fact, not the conspiracy.

20:39

You keep making the claim that it's just a, it's a fact, and I'd like you to demonstrate that from the text of the

20:45

Bible. Can you demonstrate from the text of the Bible that the biblical God discloses himself as one

20:52

God among a pantheon of gods, and that he's part of some created order himself, that he's not from eternity into eternity?

21:00

Can you demonstrate that from the text of God's Word? One, yes. Two, I think there's an issue just with the question, though, because I think,

21:08

I think it's somewhat bizarre to say, all right, I want you to demonstrate this with the text and text alone, and don't use any context.

21:16

No, no, no, you've made several times, you've made the claim that you can demonstrate that the biblical God falls into the same category as the

21:22

Egyptian pantheon of gods. No, no, no, I don't believe that. I don't believe, that's not what I'm saying. He falls into the same kind of category, that you're saying that you can have the same polytheism in the scriptures of the

21:33

Old Testament. No, no. You said the Jews believed this. Yeah, yeah, so the Jews believed in multiple gods.

21:40

We have a record of what they believed. We do, we have many records. Well, we have a record in scripture.

21:45

You do believe that that's scripture. Yes. Can you demonstrate from scripture that the biblical God has disclosed himself as one

21:51

God among a pantheon of gods? I mean, I think there's very, very strong arguments for the divine counsel. Can you? Psalms 82.

21:57

Okay, so let's do that. You just pulled a text. Now, let's flip to Psalms 82.

22:02

Do you want to go ahead and show us that from the Hebrew? First, I would just point out the straight statement of the

22:11

Psalter that I mentioned earlier. I didn't get a chance to read it, but Psalm 96 .5. For all the gods of the peoples are idols, but Yahweh made the heavens.

22:21

This is what I'm trying to point out, and that is that the key element that makes

22:28

Yahweh distinct from the gods, the peoples. First of all, they're idols. They do not have any existence in and of themselves, but that is the fact that Yahweh made the heavens.

22:40

He is the one who made all things, and I just think that it needs, no matter where we end up,

22:48

I'm hoping that before we get too far, that we'll be able to get an explanation for why it was that Yahweh, through Jeremiah the prophet, gave to the people in exile, who themselves, they're surrounded by people who do believe in the plurality of gods, and they do believe that their gods came forth out of the created order.

23:16

Notice what is then said, and hopefully, and I'll let you go to Psalm 82 from here, but it says, but Yahweh is the true

23:25

God, not a true God, the true God. He is the living God, the everlasting King, and His wrath, the earthquakes, and nations cannot endure

23:32

His indignation. Thus you shall say to them, so this is what believers are to say to polytheists, the gods that did not make the heavens and the earth will perish from the earth and from under the heavens.

23:44

Now what's fascinating is that in the original language, this changes from Hebrew to Aramaic.

23:52

When it says, thus you shall say to them, it changes language because that's the language of the people to whom they're going to be speaking.

23:59

So what's amazing is here, God, in His condescension, through the prophet, gives to His people the very words there to say to the surrounding, the people that are inviting them to the worship of other gods.

24:10

The gods that did not make the heavens and the earth will perish from the earth from under the heavens. I believe that this is going to be consistent with everything else, and I believe on the basis of Jesus Christ's testimony.

24:24

I believe it's consistent. Here's the issue. We have the false idols and the false gods of the

24:30

Old Testament. However, we also have, in the ancient context of the Bible, the

24:35

Jews believing in several gods and having a covenant with Yahweh alone.

24:41

So if you have to work with both, you can't just pick one or the other. You have to work with both. Even in the liberal perspective on that.

24:49

Oh hey, well let's not say it's a liberal perspective. I think we'll find people who affirm that are not theologically liberal.

24:58

I think that's an unfair, you know, stereotype to place on it. If, however you want to describe it, in that perspective, however, the people who promote that, do they or do they not say that those other gods were created by Yahweh?

25:15

The other gods in... If you're talking about exalted beings, if you're talking about a heavenly council or anything else, those beings were created by Yahweh, right?

25:26

Well, of course, a heavenly father created them, what we call, you know, a heavenly father created these. So this is not talking about any beings that are themselves uncreated.

25:37

Only Yahweh is uncreated. Well, this gets into how we're using the word gods, because if you want to examine the divine council, he calls them gods, sons of gods, angels.

25:48

I mean, you can really switch out whichever word you want to use. The difference is, we're talking about gods in the biblical sense of the

25:56

God who was walking in the Garden of Eden, the God who is a man, not the later, very metaphysical,

26:02

God is an energy consciousness that's everywhere but isn't anywhere. We're talking about the actual God of the

26:08

Old Testament and New Testament, and so the fact that you can have a council of gods, a group of people sitting, if you will, is completely consistent and also opens up the door to the understanding that there are, there were multiple deities that the

26:20

Jews recognized, but only covenanted with one. But you keep saying, you keep trying to limit this to covenanted with one, and yet three different passages now

26:30

I've presented that base this view on the fact that Yahweh alone creates all things.

26:39

You don't believe that Yahweh alone created all things. Why don't I believe that? Because Elohim sent

26:47

Jehovah and Michael down to organize the earth. Mm -hmm. So Yahweh didn't do that alone.

26:53

Was he in company with Michael? Well, here's what I'll say. I will say to, one, I think we like to take the phrase of organize, and we think that's more, that more of an honest, so I will say,

27:04

I will say I, because I'm not representing, I'm representing me. I will take the position that God organized matter and organized things and created things.

27:14

There was matter that was already there. We're not going at the X and the helo. I don't think that's biblical. I believe it most firmly is.

27:20

I believe it just isn't. That is one of our major issues. Then I want, I need people to understand this. You do not believe that God can create matter.

27:28

I don't have an answer to that. I think it's over. You believe that God, well what do you mean by matter? You believe that God organized pre -existing matter in the words of Joseph Smith.

27:37

I believe that God organized pre -existing matter and intelligence, not just because of Joseph Smith, but because that's what the

27:44

Bible teaches. I think that's what the original Hebrew teaches very clearly. Not just Mormons believe, not just Latter -day

27:50

Saints believe that. You'll find many, many Jews who believe that exact same thing. Well, many, many

27:56

Jews that also don't believe in the Messiahship of Jesus, so I'm not really sure why that would be the authority at that point. No, no, wait, wait, wait, wait.

28:04

Yes, well they don't believe in Jesus because they're not Christians. If they believe in Jesus, they'd be Christians. If they were Jews. I do think, though, it's fair to say that Jewish scholars should be trusted in regards to the

28:14

Talmud, the Old Testament. I think we can trust... That's not the Talmud. The Talmud came 600 years after the Talmud. I know, I said two books.

28:20

I think you meant the Tanakh. No, no, Talmud and Old Testament. I'm saying multiple books.

28:26

Jewish literature, Jewish scripture, I think we can trust Jewish scholars on that as well as Christian scholars.

28:31

But you and I do not believe that the Old Testament exists separately from the New, so we do not separate it out.

28:37

The view it has of who God is, what creation is, has to be taken as Jesus taught us, Old and New.

28:44

It's consistent. Yeah, I just think that you have it wrong about what Jesus taught, and that's totally fine because we're in different religions.

28:50

We are in different religions. What was the original question? I feel like this kind of varied... Well, the way to test that, though, the way to test that, though, is to go to the words of Scripture and Jesus.

29:01

That's where this has to be rooted. Yes. You agree with that? I agree. Well, it has to be rooted in Scripture and context.

29:07

Okay, no, of course we would agree with that. I agree with you that any verse could be taken out of context and used to say anything at all.

29:14

You said that in your debate with Aaron, and I heard you say that. Anybody could take a verse out of the

29:19

Bible and just make it say whatever they want. I believe you'd be doing that with Psalm 82, but I just want to just remind you, you've, from my perspective, made some pretty audacious claims, and you haven't documented any of them yet.

29:32

You've said things like the Jews, we just know, everybody knows that the Jews were polytheistic.

29:37

I didn't, no, no, no, I'm not saying that. I'm not saying polytheism because those two concepts... The word means many, it means many gods.

29:43

Well, polytheism and monotheism, both, you know, terms created by Philo of Alexandria, which post -date the New Testament anyway.

29:48

But the words have a particular etymology. I would say more monolatry. I wouldn't say polytheism. I would say it's a bit more fair to say monolatry, recognition of multiple heavenly deities or beings, a covenant with Yahweh alone.

30:00

I don't think that's controversial or audacious. I think that's just historical. I think that the issue is, you want to present it of, okay,

30:07

I want you to find exactly that exact, exact wording in the Bible. And I say, you can find the wording in the

30:13

Bible, but you have to, you can spar back and forth on what it means. So you have to look at the ancient context of it.

30:19

And that overwhelmingly points to the fact that, that this monolatrist idea is consistent with the

30:26

Old Testament. But the, but the over, as I need to bring us back to remind us, the overwhelming testimony of the

30:34

Old Testament is that it is Yahweh's uniqueness as the creator of all things that distinguishes him from all other gods that are themselves identified as abominations.

30:49

Well then how about, let's go to Genesis. Okay, so the point is, you did say you do not believe that Yahweh created.

30:58

He is, Yahweh is not the origin source of everything that exists in any universe anywhere, according to your understanding of Mormonism.

31:08

Is that a true statement? The statement I believe, I'll say this, that Yahweh is the creator.

31:14

He can delegate responsibilities to other people, much like, well not much like, but a good comparison is a

31:20

CEO is still the CEO of a company, but he delegates responsibilities to other people. I think that's totally fine to do.

31:25

It doesn't make him less of a creator. Who did that when he was a man? Oh, okay, getting into the exaltation of God being an exalted man.

31:34

Well, I did say specifically all universes anywhere, and if he was once a man, he had, he didn't just float through space, he lived upon a planet, which means that there are, there is matter that had its origin outside of his power.

31:53

And I think that's, that's totally fine, because you asked earlier. I just want to make sure, you and I understand what we're talking about, but we got to, we got to bring everybody else along with us.

32:01

Well you asked, you said earlier, you said, I don't believe that God can create matter. Right. That's not necessarily true.

32:07

You can't organize pre -existing matter. What we call esoteric doctrine, this, this doctrine, we don't have much information about it.

32:14

So everything is sort of a suggested kind of theory. We can, we're very, very positive that God is a man, glorified heavenly man.

32:25

I think there are multiple scriptures to support that. But the, the, the debate of, is

32:31

God an exalted man? I think what we do is we jump straight to God is an exalted man, show me where it says he's an exalted man.

32:37

But I think the better way to get there, the more reasonable way to get there is to say, okay, well, what do you know about Jesus Christ?

32:44

He came to earth as a man, and was resurrected, and was exalted. I mean, by definition of the word, he became exalted, right?

32:50

So if that's the pattern that Christ took, Christ kept his body. The Bible says that God the

32:55

Father is a man, not an intangible spirit essence everywhere, but a man. Did you say the Bible says that? That God the

33:00

Father is a man? Yeah, it does. So if God the Father is a man, it's not unreasonable to say, well, was he exalted to, like,

33:08

Christ? Maybe not the exact same method. I would love to, I'd love to know where it says that. Yeah, well, we can, we can go there if you want.

33:14

Definitely we can, but, but what I want to make sure everyone understands, you said it's esoteric doctrine.

33:21

Yeah. So the King Follett funeral discourse is esoteric doctrine, even when Joseph Smith says it is the first principle of the gospel?

33:28

It can be, yeah, it can be the, well, one, articles of faith in the King Follett discourse. The King, articles of faith, say the, the first, or what is it, the first principle ordinance of the gospel is faith in Jesus Christ.

33:40

King Follett discourse is a discourse, a sermon given at a funeral with new revelation and hyperbole, but also true, because I love the

33:48

King Follett discourse. I think it represents what we believe in a very firm, beautiful way. Most commonly cited words of Joseph Smith outside of, yeah.

33:57

So, but, so you call it esoteric, that, that confuses me. How about the presidency's statement from 1916?

34:05

Because so far I'm a little confused. Well, esoteric doctrine just means it's not clearly stated in our canon. Okay. So I'm not saying it's like, oh, super like, oh, hippie kind of thing.

34:14

It's more just, if it isn't clearly stated in our canon, you can still be a good standing member of the church and not necessarily hold, believe that wholeheartedly.

34:22

Does that make sense? But, so the first presidency can say that the father is Elohim and the son is

34:28

Yahweh, Jehovah. Do you believe that that is esoteric or is that definitional when the first presidency puts out an entire statement for it?

34:35

Well, I mean, you can use, you can use Jehovah really to refer to the father. We just, we, we regulate them just for clarification purposes, just to make it easier.

34:45

God, the father is a man, the son, Christ is the son. I'm not sure what's, what's esoteric or controversial about that.

34:51

I don't, maybe I misunderstood what you were saying, but getting into it. It's just that the statement is made over and over in scripture that Yahweh is

34:59

Elohim and he is the creator of anything that exists. Well, first of all, Elohim can also be made plural too.

35:06

So I mean, if it's used with plural verbs, that's a, that's a different issue. Well, when God said, let us make man in our image after our likeness. There it is.

35:12

But in many places, for example, Deuteronomy 4 .35 to you, it was shown that you might know that Jehovah, he is

35:18

Elohim. There is none else beside him. Now I see that as, as problematic within.

35:24

Not even a little bit, not even a little bit problematic. Because what we said, again, our Latter -day

35:29

Scriptures echo the exact same thing multiple times. Lord is God, beside him there is no savior. Jesus is

35:36

God. He is not God the father, but he is God. Right. Of the Old Testament there, we, yes, we do believe in, and you can say three gods, fathers and Holy Spirit.

35:46

We don't believe that they're one. And, and, and, and, and I'm not sure what word you'd use. We use the one in testimony and purpose and mission, but they are three.

35:54

We can count one, two, three. That's just how math works. Yeah. Yet two of them you can identify as Jehovah?

36:01

Well, Jehovah isn't the exact name. It's, it's a, it's a title given. That's a title. Yeah. Yahweh isn't.

36:07

Okay. All right. Well, I, I think we know. Well, I guess the point there, Dr. White was quoting, demonstrating from the text,

36:15

Yahweh is Elohim. And you said you didn't have any problem with that. Yeah. Well, Elohim is also a title.

36:20

But you do make distinctions. This is not called desk. This, it's, it's, it's just a desk. But you do make distinctions. It's not named desk.

36:25

You do make distinctions between them. It is Elohim that sends down Jehovah. Yeah. So I said earlier, we make, we make, we make distinctions just to make it easier to, we're not saying

36:35

God's name exactly is Elohim the way your name is James. We don't believe, we're making distinctions.

36:41

And in fact, actually, I believe you had a dialogue with Alma Alred, where he said the same thing. So this isn't like a new concept.

36:48

This is pretty normal. But we agreed that the 1916 first presidency statement does not represent

36:53

Joseph Smith's actual, actual perspective. Do you have the statement in front of you? Not in front of me, but.

36:58

Because I think, I mean. It's in Articles of Faith by Talmud. Yeah. I mean, we can, we can reference and, but if we don't have in front of us to look at exactly what it says,

37:04

I think it's semantical. But I think this is the important point for me. And that is in Mormon theology, in the core of Mormon theology,

37:11

Elohim is represented as a physical being who as an embodied physical being, a gendered embodied physical being, sends down another embodied physical being that he identifies as Jehovah in company with another, well, angelic being,

37:28

Michael, I'm not sure, a spiritual body of some sort to organize the earth. So getting to scripture, you can make an argument for that.

37:37

However, it isn't laid out very, very clear. That's sort of a way we've told it, but that's not complete.

37:42

That's not the exact, this is exactly how it happened. We know for sure. That's not what we claim at all. That's not what

37:48

Latter -day Saint theology claims. It's not what the Gospel claims. It's a way to teach it in that sense, but it is never, ever been claimed.

37:55

This is the exact way it is, period. That's how it is. That's not the reality. However, I would like to push back though, because this idea that God being, you know, a man, even an exalted man, if we, if we do read the

38:08

Bible, we do see how he's a man. Okay. We see he's a man. Please demonstrate. Okay. And I think we also see that him being a man is more clearly supported than him being a

38:19

Trinitarian spirit, which is what, what my wonderful evangelical friends believe.

38:25

But that, that's, in my opinion, I mean this with kindness, that's not scriptural. That's, that's a later idea.

38:31

That's a mathematically impossible idea. It's just not true. And it can't be demonstrated with scripture.

38:38

I was actually reading a wonderful Stanford article last night about the Trinity and says, yeah,

38:45

I mean, it isn't, it isn't demonstrated in the New Testament or the Old Testament. Yeah. Has been done for hundreds of years.

38:51

No, no, it hasn't. That's why the debates still go on. Let me ask you one question.

38:57

Please name the book on your shelf written by a Christian in history on the Trinity, defending the

39:02

Trinity. Name one book on your shelf. Name one book on my shelf. I offered to send it to you.

39:08

Well, fun fact, I would have taken it. If I could just point this out to you. I think the reason you're struggling for name of a book is you made another audacious claim again that Trinitarian doctrine is not scriptural.

39:20

It's, it's, it's false. It can't be shown from the Bible. And I just wanted to say this humbly to you. I'm making sense of God by Timothy Keller, by the way, for, for a nice Protestant book.

39:28

No, no, just, just in terms of a humble, a nudge to you. Okay. Not, not a slam, but a nudge to you.

39:35

When you can't name a single book on your shelf written by a Christian in 2000 years, and there are countless ones where they've done solid exegesis from the text itself in context, in context to demonstrate story.

39:48

Let me just finish the thought to demonstrate the triune nature of God from the old and new testaments. And you make the kinds of claims that you have that it can't be done.

39:56

Well, I think the reason you feel like it can't be done is because you'd never actually even listened to a Christian really defending it.

40:02

But I imagine you do have books on your shelf written by people from the opposite perspective that want to ultimately insert the kinds of things that you're suggesting into the text,

40:13

Far Eastern studies and those sorts of things. So I'll say this. I do. I have Making Sense of God by Timothy Keller touches on this subject.

40:22

I'd also like to say I was raised Protestant. Which means nothing. Well, according to your own testimony that I did listen to, you made it pretty clear.

40:35

Wait, wait, you can't tell me about my own testimony in my life. We met today. We met today.

40:41

Did you not record? Did you not record? No, we did. And I did listen to it. It's on YouTube in a couple places.

40:47

And you made it very, very clear that doctrinal studies was not the central aspect of your interest in evangelical

40:57

Christianity. I don't think that's what I said. Well. And coming from, here's what I'll say. Actually, the

41:03

Trinity has been something that's been on my mind probably since fifth grade, starting at Harvest Bible Church in Cypress, Texas.

41:09

This has been something discussed a lot. I've read a lot about the Trinity. Then why have you misdefined it consistently?

41:15

I don't think I have. Okay, you said that there's one being who's three beings. No one. I didn't say that.

41:21

You did on the video. We played it. We played it more than once. Did I or did Ian say it? No, you guys talk over each other.

41:27

Because I feel like when I look back at my video, my episode about the Trinity, I think

41:33

I represent it very well. It's three persons and one God, correct? Do you know what the difference between person and being or nature is?

41:40

Well, I know that. It was not brought up, right? Would you admit you didn't bring it up? Honestly, I have to go back and watch the episode.

41:47

How long ago was it? A year and a half ago we published it. Dude, I'm almost 56 years old.

41:52

I remember a year and a half ago. James, we know you're old, okay? Come on, man. I remember. I have eyes and you have a face.

41:59

Hey, by the way, you look great for your age. I just want to say. That's because he works out like a beast. I've always wanted to meet

42:05

John Malkovich, so I feel like I'm getting close. Let's get this over with then.

42:12

I would like to. I would like to. Oh, I will take your presents. I want to slide those over to you.

42:17

Look at these. I got the Forgotten Trinity. I got scripture alone. I got letters to a

42:23

Mormon. This is the controversial one. Look at the front on that. That is so Mormon missionary.

42:30

It's even got the little thing that you use to keep your pants from getting caught in the chain of your bike. That's on the desk.

42:37

That is designed. Thank you very much for these books. I will read them. I think you are an incredibly smart man.

42:43

I think you are very kind as well. I'm very thankful for these. I would like to go back to subject of the

42:51

Trinity. We can say I misrepresented. Let's just talk about it. Because me, from my perspective, when someone explains the

43:00

Trinity, they say one God, three persons. My question for you is before the

43:07

New Testament or during the Old Testament, Christ, is the

43:13

Trinity a duality or is it still a Trinity? Is it still three people? You completely lost me.

43:19

What do you mean is it now? You lost me. Before the New Testament, before Christ's earthly ministry, is the

43:26

Trinity a Trinity or a duality? It's a Trinity. Is he a spirit or is he an embodied person in the

43:35

Old Testament? In the prologue of John, if you'd like to... I will be as brief as I possibly can but I like to be biblical in providing a response to this.

43:45

There are only a few places in Scripture that shed light upon the pre -existence of Christ and the relationship he had with the

43:52

Father. If you look at the prologue of John, in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the

43:58

Word was God. John uses... Beautiful. Amen. But what does that mean?

44:06

Because in the beginning was the Word. The verb that is used there does not point to a point in origin.

44:12

As far back as you want to push NRK, in the beginning, the Logos, the Word is already in existence.

44:18

The same thing is true in the second phrase and the Word was Prostantheon so there is a personal relationship with whoever

44:25

Theon is, the God. And the Word was as to his nature, Theos, deity.

44:31

Now when we get to the end of the prologue in verse 18 we are told no one has seen God at any time, the unique God the monogamous

44:39

Theos who is in the bosom of the Father he has exegeted him, he has made him known. So what are we told here?

44:45

The Logos has eternally existed the Logos has eternally existed in relationship with the Father and then verse 14 tells us that the

44:53

Logos entered into flesh but there the verb changes so as everywhere else with the

44:58

Logos it is eternal existence in the past he came into physical existence at a point in time at a point in history that's the incarnation

45:08

Question then that was great but to bring it low for normal everyday people listening most people can understand what

45:17

I just said I know 100 % they cannot if you were to take a study of everyone in America and they would listen to you, not at all

45:25

I've taught this to teenagers and they have no problems with it I guarantee you I taught it more slowly than I just did ok well so going with this subject still a trinity before the

45:40

Old Testament so I would ask you where does the Father's spirit end and where does the Son's spirit begin end or begin, you're putting him in space there is no spatiality so it's just one spirit we're not even talking about the word spirit you must distinguish between the words person and being well they almost have the exact same definition no they don't let's think about it this way if I pick up a rock and hit you with it a rock has being and you're going to feel it but if you insult the rock will the rock care well those are two different words being those are not the same definition of being no the point is that you and I every single day recognize the difference between being and person, we know that there's all sorts of things that exist, they have being but they're not personal ok so you're saying that Christ before his ministry was not personal no

46:41

I'm not saying that at all I'm simply giving you a basic foundational attribute that you're missing in your discussion of the doctrine of the trinity and that is you and I are human beings right?

46:53

yes we are but we are separate human beings we share a common humanity but as persons we are separate from one another now is your being limited and finite um no no you are an infinite being well

47:09

I believe I have a spirit which is eternal that's not what I meant well I don't think you can separate the two ok you had to take an airplane to get here so you can't be infinite right?

47:18

you are limited in time and space well my physicality is limited my spirit is not so is your spirit still in Provo?

47:26

well if you want to talk about spirit that's going to take six hours that's so metaphysical it just seems strange to me the point is that we are beings that are personal

47:38

God and God's being is unlike our being in that he is eternal as he himself says

47:46

I want to ask this then getting back to the trinity and just to make it that's what

47:52

I was getting to but the trinity is that there is one being of God Yahweh that is shared by three co -equal and co -eternal persons

48:02

God the Son and Holy Spirit and so the point is my being cannot be shared by three persons because it's limited and finite his being is infinite and eternal and therefore can be

48:12

I still think that's a derail I want to talk about the actual trinity not comparing it to anything else

48:18

I want to talk about the trinity itself just to be fair here in terms of making the claim that there is derailing going on when you are asking for definitions and we are providing definitions is that the definition of the trinity?

48:33

you are asking questions about was there a trinity before the Old Testament and you are asking questions about God's nature we've got to have a common because you are saying

48:43

Father, Son, Holy Spirit and if Christ before the New Testament was not embodied, he was spirit is that fair to say?

48:50

not a spirit I know but there is a difference between spirit and a spirit limited or anything along those lines he was not incarnated so God is spirit is that fair to say?

49:03

Father is spirit, Holy Spirit is spirit so if you can make a distinction of three, then where does the first spirit end and the second spirit begin because if you can have three then they must be divided ending and beginning is either a temporal or a physical reality both of which

49:18

God denies for himself no, it's counting, it's math you can't say 1, 2, 3 and then say not 1, 2, 3 it's

49:25

Father, Son, Spirit 1, 2, 3 so you are saying God, three persons 1, 2, 3, where does the first and the second begin?

49:34

where they themselves distinguish themselves from each other they make distinctions from one another so if there is distinction then there must be division no, why?

49:43

well the only way to distinct is to show that there is something different there is a division of persons sharing one being that's why

49:50

I tried to lay the foundation and say I can't have that happen because my being is stuck in time and space and is finite

49:58

God's being isn't I know, okay, well that's fair to say so the distinction is in persons not in being this is the fundamental difference and this is something that Joseph Smith never understood well, no one can understand it because it's mathematically my kids can understand it in applying mathematics to scriptural revelation

50:23

I mean, let's just let's just be honest we can turn that around and talk about the number of gods and infinity and eternal regression we can make all sorts of arguments like that talking about the trinity right now,

50:36

I still want to know this is the issue I see sorry, my voice is getting a little louder I don't mean to be rude,

50:41

I'm a Texan so, again I feel like it's from my perspective

50:48

I feel it's disingenuous to say it is all one completely one, but then say three and I'm saying if you can make a distinguish between the

51:00

Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as spirits, pre -mortal earth ministry, then that is division if you can make a distinguishing this is something off from this that's what division is, which means there's a partiality, or partialism aspect of the trinity here's what you're missing is that I met with some

51:19

Jehovah's Witnesses a number of years ago and they asked me why do you believe in the doctrine of the trinity? and I said it's very simple the

51:26

Bible reveals that there is one true and eternal God Yahweh, they were shocked that I said that I think

51:34

I might have said Jehovah to them because Jehovah's Witnesses freak out if you use anything other than their language so, there is one

51:40

God Jehovah, the problem is the Father the

51:45

Son, and the Spirit are all identified as Jehovah in the New Testament so, in Isaiah 53 who lays our sins upon the

51:53

Messiah? it's Jehovah who lays our sins upon the Messiah Jesus, so there's the Father being identified as Jehovah Jesus is identified as Jehovah a number of times in the

52:02

New Testament, and the Spirit is the Spirit of the Lord the Spirit of Jehovah so if you have one

52:09

God and three persons who are distinguished from one another look, you've got to understand in your video

52:18

I don't know who said it but someone said well I don't know why you're praying to yourself that is a common misunderstanding this was the

52:27

Son in the incarnate state praying but you didn't correct him

52:33

I'm not sure if I did we filmed about 40 minutes worth and we cut it into 6, 7, to 10 minutes ok, then you cut out his correction if you corrected him but the point is what was communicated what was communicated

52:46

I catch these things because I deal with Muslims all around the world and this is a common error that they make as well

52:54

Jesus was not praying to himself it's easy to make that error though because I can go to Mark 13, 32 but of that day, that hour, speaking of the second coming, no man knoweth know not the angels which are in heaven, neither the

53:04

Son but the Father if they're all one God how does the Son not know something the Father knows exactly the argument the

53:10

Muslims make and I'll give you the exact same response I did from scripture Jesus emptied himself of certain divine prerogatives so that he might function as the

53:20

Messiah for example, we know from the mount of transfiguration that when Jesus is seen as he is he is pure and bright if Jesus walked around Galilee blinding everybody he couldn't have exactly functioned as the

53:34

Messiah, teaching the way he did and be betrayed by the Jews because they'd be falling down and worshipping him so there were certain aspects of his divine character that were veiled, including his glory during his time upon earth for God's purposes to function as the

53:52

Messiah the knowledge of that time was one of the things that is veiled during that time period where is that clearly laid out in the

54:01

Bible? it says right here, Philippians chapter 2 he says, do nothing from rivalry or conceit but in humility, count others more significant than yourselves, let each of you look out not only for his own interest but also for the interest of others, have this mind among yourselves have this mind among yourselves which is yours in Christ Jesus who,

54:21

Jesus though he was in the form of God did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped or held onto, but made himself nothing taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men, and being found in human form, he humbled himself to become obedient to the point of death even death on a cross

54:47

I think that's also, I mean they're employing some very great beautiful poetic language there because he also says before Abraham was,

54:53

I am, and that's not saying nothing, he's nothing I'm in Philippians 2, you just quoted John chapter 8 yeah, well it's the

55:00

New Testament, I can't quote different books you're the one that came in here sitting down first talking about how important context is

55:06

I'm talking about the words of Christ like what Jesus is saying himself he said, before Abraham was,

55:12

I am and so I'm saying this is it's employing poetic language, not exact language I'm saying it's employing poetic language, it's not exactly poetic let me just point something out, this is actually this is actually, now let's do this even better, shall we do this even better?

55:27

we did a little something for you my friend yes sorry, would you here, let me help you out which verse you just read we did something for you do you remember a message

55:39

I sent you? oh, you got me a Bible with my name written on it, didn't you? this isn't just a Bible with your name on it yes, it is not

55:47

I don't know if you noticed this but I have a very special Greek New Testament here and these are handmade these are hand bound and I had the same guy post -Tenebrous

55:58

Lux, Bible rebinding really skilled guy do this just for you it has your name on it it has been bound together this is a

56:08

Reformation Study Bible I think the same translation he was using now you've got one problem, I didn't separate the pages because that's half the fun in having anything new is the wonderful paint on the edge of the pages, you have to go through and you have to separate them so don't tear your pages see how they stick together because that's just how it's done with a brand new

56:29

Bible I didn't want to ruin the gift for you you really don't understand how amazing this gift is this is a hand bound handmade this is like legend thank you very much for this gift

56:46

I will cherish this this is wow I don't want to let you get there and it's the right color blue, that is my favorite color

56:57

James White is charitable anyone who says this man is not he is a charitable good man so just before you pick it up and go to the passage,

57:05

I just want to point something out to you again this is a humble, very respectful nudge to you when I quoted from the

57:11

Apostle Paul here in what he said about Jesus who was in the very form of God and did not consider equality with God a thing to be grasped or held on to but he emptied himself and took upon the form of a servant humbled himself, became obedient to death your first response was a reaction and you said that's just poetic language no, that wasn't my first response,

57:28

I've heard it before ok, but that was your response that he's using poetic language and you talked about the need for context

57:34

I just want to point out to you as you go to the word of God there that you then asked me when

57:39

I gave the Bible to you can you tell me where this was at which chapter which means, and this is again a humble nudge, not anything other than to say

57:47

I want you to pay attention to this you had a response to a passage from scripture in terms of a refutation, that's poetic language but you didn't even know where it was from well,

57:57

I would like to, if I can defend myself, one the words in your Bible are very very small

58:03

I was asking you to point to it because one it's incredibly small, you have great eyes for 40, the other thing is and now a peephole that's right, yes but I'd also like to say though it is completely normal to have a view and an opinion on scripture and not know where every single scripture is right off the top of my head my point was you were responding to a specific text with an argument and a refutation no, no, wait,

58:29

I was responding because when you said when the text ended saying, you know made himself nothing,

58:35

I'm saying that is poetic because Christ also said before Abraham was I am, so it's not saying exactly oh

58:41

Jesus was nothing or Jesus was just, so that's why I'm saying it's poetic so that's what poetic means,

58:46

I'm not saying the whole thing was poetic but that is a poetic way of saying something, would you agree? you lost me there, let me focus in upon that because I've done a lot of work on this text and if you

58:56

I think what Jeff's wanting to do is have you open that Bible and look at Philippians chapter 2 I hope the print is not too small for you

59:02

I'm sorry, and if you want to train your Bibles Kwaku, but let me just point something out, it's not that it's too small for you to read, it was so small

59:10

I didn't feel like searching for it in that 10 seconds I had I understand, let me just say a couple things, first of all you're exactly right that the language of verses 6 through 11 in Philippians chapter 2 is poetic because most scholars believe that this is a portion of an ancient hymn of the church and so it is poetic, however

59:32

I would point out, everything in the Psalter is poetic, and many hymns represent a very precise theology, and I would suggest to you that what we have here is a very precise theology verse 6, who existing in the

59:48

Morphe Theou, the very form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be held onto or grasped but made himself nothing, now when you say that's poetic,

59:59

I will agree with you in this sense Paul never uses this

01:00:04

Greek word kanao in a literal sense, he always uses it metaphorically, so for example he says,

01:00:10

I don't want my labor amongst you to become empty, he's not talking about the bomb is going to fall out and it's going to be on the floor and ruined he's talking metaphorically so on that I would agree so what does that mean here what that means here is that Paul is exhorting the believers to an attitude of humility toward one another, what is humility?

01:00:29

it's having certain rights and privileges but laying them aside in the service of other people, so how is

01:00:35

Jesus our example of this he eternally exists in the form of God, Isaiah chapter 6 when

01:00:41

Isaiah saw Jehovah sitting upon the throne that was Jesus, that was the one who would become the son in the incarnation so he's worshipped by the host of heaven and yet he made himself of no reputation by doing what, how?

01:00:56

Jehovah was sitting down but you don't believe he has a body, how is he sitting down if he's everywhere? God why would you have to have a physical body to be able to sit upon a throne well when you sit down, that's when you're sitting down you get a chair, you're sitting you have a body you are projecting onto God your creatureliness rather than defining your creatureliness that's just words, that's just how the word sit means, you're sitting down but God is upon his throne he's seen by God, do you really think that Isaiah was saying, look he's a human being like me that's not what he's saying at all he probably was saying that he's sitting upon a throne he's sitting down,

01:01:40

I would like to if we can even go to the same Isaiah who's going to tell us that Yahweh is without beginning, without end fills the universe, he's also saying, but he also has a physical body, which you don't believe he had at that point in time that's poetic, the saying he feels like that is something poetic, but saying like the vision, oh

01:02:00

I see him, but poetic does not mean untrue, the poetic language here is extremely specific it is specific but it is not stating that he is everywhere,

01:02:11

I can find if I can go straight to Genesis for a moment to read scriptures well just real fast just to clarify on those, there was two different points being made there, the one was in reference to Isaiah, you were responding to there, we were talking about Philippians chapter 2, those are two separate issues the reason we went to Philippians chapter 2 originally is because you brought up a text from Mark, about Christ not knowing the hour of his return so we were claiming that the term

01:02:36

Achenosen specifically would include making himself of no reputation, there was a veiling of his pre -existent glory which responds to that first question that you had there

01:02:50

I think it responds, I don't think it actually answers because it's saying, okay you're saying he veiled, I would agree with that however, the scripture you read in Philippians 2 that in no way is supporting a

01:03:08

Trinitarian idea you have one who is eternally equal with the father eternally equal with the father, so you're saying eternally equal but then you're saying he didn't know he voluntarily makes himself of no reputation mostly equal with the father is what you're saying not eternally you are completely misunderstanding what equality means equality is not an equal sign that says the father is the son, the son and the father eternally exist as God so do they know the exact same thing all the time well then can they be eternally equal in the way you're saying, no they can't by nature they share the one being that is

01:03:50

God but not by purpose or not by knowledge are not eternally equal, that's kind of what you're saying what

01:03:56

I'm saying is that each of the persons acts in such a way that we can identify and distinguish between father son and spirit, it's the son who became incarnate none of this changes the fact that there's only one

01:04:08

God and none of this changes the fact that none of these were men that lived on another planet beforehand and I will also note we've skipped over one significant portion there, it teaches there in the text that Paul says, an aspired apostle, says that Jesus was in the form of God but you don't believe that, do you?

01:04:26

what's the form of God? Jesus was in the form of God before his earthly ministry you believe that Jesus was a

01:04:33

God you believe he was a God before the incarnation yes and then continued to be a

01:04:39

God after the resurrection and was still a God on earth but he didn't marry, he wasn't able to have offspring that's why

01:04:45

Mormons have even speculated as to whether Jesus will have that opportunity and the Holy Spirit will have that opportunity well that is another water balloon that's not relevant right now not at all, not at all relevant right now

01:04:58

I think talking about again we said, God being a person and not just this essence everywhere, and you're saying

01:05:06

God is eternal, and his son is eternal with the father, but then saying the father knows something the son doesn't, but if they're eternal, co -equal, completely one, like you're saying, they cannot know, the father will not know something he doesn't, because if it's one

01:05:19

God the God cannot divide or contradict itself. So on what basis are you saying the son does not have the capacity or ability to enter into human flesh to redeem his people?

01:05:31

Not what I'm saying, I'm saying No it is what you're saying. No I'm not, the scripture that says the scripture that says the scripture that says speaking in the context of the second coming, no man knoweth not even the son but the father.

01:05:43

In the incarnate state for the specific reason of being the Messiah and the son voluntarily chose to take that role.

01:05:52

I agree, but I'm saying that doesn't work if it's one God that doesn't work, that's God being divided against itself

01:05:57

No it's not. Yes it is. Then prove it. Okay, so what does divide mean?

01:06:04

Divide what? I'm not saying that the being of God has been divided. Do you know something that Jeff doesn't know? I'm saying that the divine person of the son can voluntarily

01:06:12

I agree with that, but I'm saying that interrupts Protestant thought. No it doesn't. It absolutely does.

01:06:17

You've never read Protestant thought. I was raised a Protestant! You converted at what age? Was I converted at what age?

01:06:23

I was converted 15. Okay, so at 15 you would read Augustine's work on the

01:06:29

Trinity, you would read B .B. You and I both know you don't have to read every book in history. I think the point we're pointing out here is if you could just allow me to say this

01:06:38

I think what we're trying to point out here is that it's already been demonstrated, I think it can be demonstrated we can spend time doing it if you want that you made errors in your description of what

01:06:47

Christians believe about the Trinity No I didn't. And you sat next to Ian made an error, I did not make an error. I just want

01:06:53

Ian to know I want the people in the audience to go get Ian and get the tire treads off of his back because he just got thrown in the bus

01:07:02

So the point is you offered no correction and you allowed it to be published

01:07:08

Well, first Sorry, you can go And you allowed it to be published and you knew there were errors, apparently, there and you allowed it to go up with those errors

01:07:19

I can say that that, to me, is a little difficult to swallow I'll just finish the thought here

01:07:26

So, in terms of you appealing to the fact that you were raised a Protestant I want to say, just speaking to people who are

01:07:34

Reformed on this side in terms of being raised an American Protestantism or Evangelicalism I want to just let you know, as an argument from authority, that means very little in 21st century

01:07:45

America I mean, almost like as a heartbroken but humble jab at you, it means really nothing, but you also

01:07:54

I want to point out to you that you can't you haven't pointed, this is really your first book on the Trinity just handed to you today

01:08:00

Well, I don't own books on the Trinity I've read extensively about the Trinity I'm in college,

01:08:06

I don't own a lot of books in general If you've read books on the Trinity and I'm only asking this to understand where the questions are coming from If you've read them on the

01:08:15

Trinity then why do you keep creating these category errors and argument? I will now respond to this buffet of good questions

01:08:23

In the question of the show your show operates differently than our show this isn't a question of me representing theology this is how media works

01:08:33

I don't edit the episodes of the show, we give suggestions and they do with them what they will they're edited at different times so we've spoken that subject for about 40 minutes

01:08:46

I recognize that some of the things in the episode were you know, not true as any deep topic you discuss on any show, whether it be political religious, about farming you're going to get some things wrong that's totally fine however, saying that I allowed it to go up and I was putting forth misinformation that's not what happened

01:09:06

This isn't me trying to get you to answer, you're not on the witness stand right now

01:09:12

I just wanted to clarify my means What I'm pointing out to you is that you made an argument from authority there, about yourself and your own background and training in this area but what

01:09:21

I'm just pointing out to you is as you guys are dialoguing you keep creating these you're making category errors and you're demonstrating that you don't really understand this thought, but then you claim that you do

01:09:31

I don't think I'm misrepresenting I'm just saying, I was raised Protestant and I just think it's to say you don't understand this we've only met today, so I think we should get away from all of that, you don't know this you're not smart enough for this

01:09:44

Let's just talk about what it is That hasn't been done here, we're not responding to your claim You made the claim that what

01:09:50

I was saying and what Christians have believed about what the Son voluntarily did is somehow contradictory

01:09:58

No You said it was somehow contradictory to Protestant thought So there's no misunderstanding

01:10:06

I will state what I'm saying right now I'm saying that if it is one God, the Father, Son, and the

01:10:12

Spirit cannot be separated from each other they cannot be divided, they are completely one together, I'm saying

01:10:18

I think it is disingenuous to claim that at any point the Father will know something the

01:10:24

Son doesn't know The error that you made and why that does not represent

01:10:29

Protestantism and why I don't believe any 15 year old in a community church could have even begun to know this which was your immediate response is that the relationship of Father, Son, and Spirit is not only one that allows us to distinguish between Father, Son, and Spirit even before creation but after creation they take differing roles in the redemption of mankind, it's called the

01:10:57

Economic Trinity It's not the Father who became incarnate No, I know that It was not the Spirit who became incarnate

01:11:02

I know that, so there's three Which is fundamental

01:11:07

Trinitarian teaching Great, we agree, so if there's three there's three There are three persons, one being and you just automatically just shut down I will not allow that distinction that makes sense of the scriptures

01:11:23

I don't believe that you can make sense of all of the scriptures if you do not allow for the fact that there is one

01:11:33

God Yahweh who has revealed himself as Father, Son, and Spirit That is what we believe and it is not against Protestant thinking to recognize that the

01:11:47

Son I never said it's against Protestant thinking, I just think it shows that there is a disconnect No disconnection

01:11:54

Look, we can say that I'm just saying, I think it's interesting to claim one

01:12:00

God one being, completely united completely together in every sense of the way By nature

01:12:07

You're talking about the being of God? We're talking about God's nature In eternity, of course

01:12:13

In eternity But you must recognize even in Mormon theology even in Mormon theology there is a distinction regarding the incarnate state

01:12:26

Right now, this is about the Trinity I want to ask you I'm holding you accountable for your own position

01:12:32

Is this world this life right now, is this a part of eternity? Is it a part of eternity?

01:12:38

Yes In eternity, they know everything in the same knowledge This scripture says the

01:12:44

Son does not know something the Father knows You say he did it willingly, he veiled But, I'm just saying,

01:12:50

I think that's interesting that you are on one hand saying they know everything from eternity to eternity completely unified, every single subject every single knowledge of matter and space, but then in saying okay, well the

01:13:03

Father doesn't know, the Son doesn't know I think that's interesting Incarnation is a part of eternity, is it?

01:13:08

But it is a specific historical reality All I'm saying is it's a part of eternity That's all I'm saying

01:13:14

John chapter 1 verse 14 I agree with you I do agree

01:13:19

I agree with you I'm just saying, though, I think I am hearing and seeing that as I pointed out from the prologue of John that there was a distinction that even

01:13:32

John gives between the eternal relationship of Father and Son in NRK and then in 114 the

01:13:40

Word became flesh So that happened in history and therefore there was a purpose the

01:13:52

Father sends the Son the Son comes voluntarily the Spirit is involved but they all take different roles

01:13:59

So you sit back and say, oh, but if they take different roles and if that means that there's going to be any

01:14:04

I mean, the Father remains glorious and worshipped in Heaven but now the

01:14:10

Son is being abused by these people I just can't believe how that could fit the Trinity I'm simply saying there's no basis for it

01:14:16

I didn't say that, I'm just saying I think it's interesting because I think the two views you just gave, I do think any person who's looking at them will notice that there seems to be a contradiction

01:14:26

And we will disagree, of course The only reason you bring that though is because you're bringing external definitions from, as you admitted earlier, a different religion

01:14:35

No, I'm using definitions by words in Merriam -Webster's dictionary Do you really think that you're not influenced by your

01:14:44

Mormon worldview? Okay, we're both influenced by our religion Your Calvinist, my

01:14:50

Latter -day Saint worldview I'm just saying you don't have to be a Latter -day Saint to see this contradiction between having a complete knowledge together as one

01:15:00

God Because I agree on this hand I agree that the Son didn't know what the Father knew while he was on Earth The Joesmith Translation makes that clear

01:15:06

However, I will say though that means they're not this one God in the way you're saying

01:15:11

Also, earlier, this beckons to or echoes the earlier thought of when

01:15:17

I asked about the Trinity before the Incarnation And you said one, one together

01:15:22

But then, if you can make any distinction it isn't one And that's math

01:15:28

No, no, no It's not that I don't understand It isn't coherent It's amazing for me that a

01:15:33

Mormon who emphasizes Latter -day Revelation all the time would be content to actually sit there and say it's math

01:15:40

No, it's revelation It's revelation It's right here The beautiful thing about revelation is that all true knowledge fits within revelation and math fits within revelation and the

01:15:51

Trinity is mathematically incoherent in my opinion so it is not revelation It is not mathematically incoherent Really?

01:15:58

How about this? How can you make them contradictory to one another? Okay, being in person are two different things

01:16:06

However, we disagree there What we disagree on is when you say one God, and then you say three then you're saying not divided but having distinct like distinctive differences

01:16:19

I'm surprised at this I'll be honest with you because you just made a category error When we say undivided, we're saying that the being of God cannot be divided up into parts

01:16:28

There is only one being of God So not Father, Son, Holy Spirit When we talk about the persons sharing that one being if you were familiar with Trinitarian theology you would know that we emphasize this is not a division of the being of God The Father is not one third of God The Spirit is not one third of God The Son is not one third of God There can be no division of the being

01:16:49

There is however a distinction of the persons because they relate to one another they have revealed themselves to us in such a way that we can distinguish between Father, Son, and Spirit and if you would just get away from this idea of making being and person the same thing

01:17:10

That's why I was trying to explain this earlier on Could we get back to the Trinity? I was trying to give you the foundational stuff

01:17:17

Dr. Wright, you explained it now I still think it's, if I may say, nonsense I don't mean that in a rude way

01:17:22

I'm just trying to figure out words to use I haven't said anything for a little bit Let me just say one of the things that I think we would want to say to you in terms of our loving, encouraging evangelization of you because we want to see you know the

01:17:36

Lord I know him, I know him well And that's what we're discussing I just want you to hear this

01:17:43

I think that it makes sense to me a lot of sense to me that Mormonism is very attractive and appealing to a creature a creature that has been created by God that sees their own experience of mothers and fathers and children in time and space and they see this material realm around us, how the

01:18:06

God of Mormonism makes a lot of sense because he's us, he's just like us whereas the

01:18:12

Biblical definition of God from Genesis to Revelation is a God that is far above us Really?

01:18:17

Well it says, and they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day and man and his wife heard the sound of the Lord as he was walking in the garden, let us make man in our image after our likeness, and then

01:18:26

Adam says the same thing, and Adam made Seth in his image after his likeness, this is a physical God we're talking about, the metaphysical energy consciousness is just not there.

01:18:35

Ok, hold on, wait, and this is one of those examples, you just did it again, you said this energy consciousness, when have we suggested to you at any point that we believe

01:18:44

God is an energy consciousness? Well you say God is, God does not have a body, and God does not have borders and if he doesn't have a body or borders he's just gotta be, he isn't physical, he's gotta be a consciousness

01:18:54

It's the Lord of glory himself that said God is spirit And what is spirit? Well, you want to get definitions in terms of No, what is spirit to you?

01:19:04

Immaterial. I would say immaterial. So is consciousness not a fair word to use? Spirit is immaterial, and now you're doing another, and now you're doing something else too, you're talking about consciousness, something that a person would have, person, that's a person category but we're talking about nature and substance here, we're talking about you asked what spirit is, well the best way to say that in terms of this discussion is immaterial

01:19:26

Immaterial, immaterial knowledge Well, hold on, immaterial is in terms of his nature, what his being is, we're talking about being

01:19:34

He's not physical, so and he has no borders So don't use consciousness, don't use what is spirit

01:19:42

So you can understand where I'm coming from and I agree with you, we're both operating here in terms of presuppositions

01:19:48

My presuppositions are commitments to what God has disclosed in his word, and yours of course are

01:19:54

Mormon presuppositions we have to both acknowledge that, so when you talk about God as spirit, I'm thinking about biblical definitions and how

01:20:00

God has disclosed himself, and he says that he's spirit, he says that he fills heaven and earth he talks about himself in terms of his eternal nature, from everlasting from eternity into eternity which you don't accept

01:20:13

I'm saying, well there are certain things about that that again are poetic, I'm asking you what is spirit? Where was I quoting from?

01:20:19

You were quoting from the word of God the Holy Bible. Which verse was I quoting from just now? You know,

01:20:24

I don't know, you can't, you can't, that's ridiculous My point is that your response to a text that so clearly defines a

01:20:30

God that's separate from the God that you worship your response of that's poetic, when you couldn't even tell me where it's from First, eternity to eternity

01:20:39

I'm saying that, or sorry, fills heaven and earth rather, that is poetic because he does have a body, he is a man. His spirit his knowledge, his power

01:20:47

Does he have feathers? Everything Does he have feathers? What is spirit? Well let me just ask you, because I'm going to respond to what you just said

01:20:52

Before you ask me the question because I asked you what is spirit first, what is spirit? Well I just described spirit in terms of immaterial

01:20:58

Immaterial what? Not a consciousness, not a knowledge Immaterial, what is spirit? Well consciousness and knowledge would be something that would be in the category of person

01:21:08

Okay, well it is the person's one being but even if it isn't, what is spirit? Spirit is spirit, I mean it's a revelatory term

01:21:14

And I want your audience to Why do you want a mathematical definition? It's not mathematical, I want your audience to understand this and I want the

01:21:20

Latter Day Saints listening to understand this We from the who believe in the restored gospel of Jesus You have to talk into the microphone

01:21:27

Everyone! They'll lose everything you're saying It'll all be for naught The restored gospel of Jesus Christ is beautiful and true and showing the biblical definition and nature of God, of having a body

01:21:41

And you know what? And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel for I have seen God face to face

01:21:47

The Lord spake unto Moses, face to face A man speaketh unto his friend You're saying, oh no no no

01:21:53

You're saying, oh immaterial And I say, what is immaterial? I don't really know What is spirit? I don't really know You didn't give me an answer to what is immaterial

01:22:01

You didn't give me an answer You said And then I asked about knowledge, you said, well knowledge, that's person

01:22:07

But then you also say person There's three persons in the being of God You have to allow for conversation

01:22:13

I think I'll respond to what you said Thankfully this is recorded, they can roll the tape back and say that we didn't in fact say what you said we said

01:22:21

But in terms of when you go to the Old Testament and you pull random text from the Bible to show God I'm not pulling random text,

01:22:28

I'm talking about the physicality of God I would like to respond to each of those in terms of the Old Testament revelation does have numerous glorious, amazing instances, which by the way

01:22:39

I use to demonstrate the triune nature of God, of the pre -incarnate Christ showing up and interacting with his people, it's a glorious thing that I think supports and demonstrates the triune nature of God So we go to those same texts too, so when you quote them

01:22:55

I say amen and hallelujah I know you do, but I just don't think you understand When you start quoting passages from the

01:23:02

Old Testament talking about him speaking to God face to face like one speaks to his friend I have a solid biblical answer for that that actually works in tandem with all of the rest of Scripture but if we start doing what you're doing in terms of just taking these texts and just throwing them out, making

01:23:17

God look like he's an exalted man I would say, do you believe that God has feathers? If he wants to have feathers, he can.

01:23:26

Because the Bible has numerous examples of God keeping us in the shadow of his wings Yeah, that's poetic

01:23:33

But saying face to face and then echoing again, as a man speaking to his friend, that's not poetic. That's trying to get a point across What's important here to note is that we both recognize that there is hyperbole used in Scripture Yes, and that is not one

01:23:44

Those are not examples of hyperbole So we have to take them in their context and not just one text here or there, but in their immediate context in the context of all of Scripture, correct?

01:23:55

So when we look in the Bible and we see God's consistent descriptions of himself and his own nature as something that is not creaturely, something that is beyond us, something that is from everlasting to everlasting

01:24:06

Well, I think it's talking about knowledge. The Bible makes it clear. It's talking about the knowledge and power is something we can't grasp, but the being in nature itself makes very clear.

01:24:14

He's a father He's a man who looks like us, made in his image. Wait, hold on. Now, hold on. Wait. You just made a category error there.

01:24:22

You talked about father in terms of being I'm saying he's our father He's the father of humanity but he's also a man.

01:24:30

And those two things go well together. That's what the Bible says. There is nowhere in the

01:24:35

Bible where it says, I am not a physical being not even a being you could understand if you saw, but I am immaterial that goes with everywhere.

01:24:46

That's not scriptural That's a later idea Let me allow God to speak to that. You turn things around Shall the potter be considered to be like the clay?

01:24:57

And what is made would say of its maker, he did not make me. Or what is formed, say of him who formed it he has no understanding

01:25:07

The biblical utilization of the category of the potter and the clay

01:25:15

You turn things around. This is about as descriptive of Mormon theology as I can possibly come up with.

01:25:20

Shall the potter be considered to be like the clay? Yes, actually, because if I recall correctly according to the

01:25:30

Eternal Achieving a Celestial Marriage Student Manual, copyright 1992,

01:25:36

Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints we have one of the most amazing statements

01:25:41

I've ever read in any religion It's this Always you are an eternal being.

01:25:48

You were never created and you cannot be destroyed but you can advance, progress, and develop by obedience

01:25:55

Do you agree with the First Presidency's statement? Before I agree with anything,

01:26:00

I need to read it myself. I need to read the context of what they're speaking I need to read why they released that statement. I don't just go and, oh, well, yeah,

01:26:07

I know This is the Eternal Marriage Ceremony Manual. To be married in the temple for more than a decade.

01:26:13

I will read that and I will get back to you. Okay, let me just make sure everybody hears it, though, because this is

01:26:19

LDS .com. A part of it, without context, you're reading A part of it I can

01:26:26

And it's also, you didn't read, that wasn't even Latter -day Scripture. That's not even in our canon, either You're not picking things in our canon

01:26:32

I thought you believed in the authoritative teaching office of the Corporation of the Presidency of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day

01:26:37

Saints. I do. I just think it's interesting that trying to get to Latter -day Saint doctrine, you have not quoted Scripture You've just quoted

01:26:44

First of all, the Book of Mormon doesn't teach any of this stuff about God. Doctrine and Covenants do. Well, when the

01:26:50

Book of Mormon was translated, he didn't have any of those things. Precept upon precept, and that's how our

01:26:57

Scripture comes forth, and that's how our Gospel is restored, line upon line So you're objecting to my quoting from the

01:27:03

First Presidency? Of course I'm not. I'm objecting to your quoting out of context, and throwing it and not giving it its fair due explanation.

01:27:12

Well, first of all I have read this entire section so many times I've lost count and I will allow anyone to examine it themselves and they will see it is completely in context.

01:27:24

Oh, I agree with that. I agree with that. Mm -hmm.

01:27:40

Yeah. Beautiful.

01:28:00

It's beautiful and true, and I think a wonderful example we see of that is how we know that God was a man, as Scripture says.

01:28:06

But I think there's an even bigger umbrella here we should discuss on the subject. Alright, one other quote and I'll...

01:28:20

...attain the rank and sanctity of Godship. I just want to contrast these statements with, once again, the words of what we know

01:28:30

Jesus taught was the very word of God, because he quoted from the prophet Isaiah so many times.

01:28:36

You turn things around. Shall the potter be considered as like the clay?

01:28:43

And that what is made would save its maker? He did not make me. Earlier on you pointed out.

01:28:49

If you agree with the statement, you are an eternal being. You were never made and you cannot be destroyed.

01:28:55

That is a 180 degree contradiction of the teaching of inspiration.

01:29:00

It is 100 % not a contradiction because, yes, the potter is not like the clay in the sense that as people on earth, we are not like God.

01:29:08

We don't have the knowledge and it's trying to show the place of humanity and God. However, this idea of becoming

01:29:15

God, then very, very scriptural, for our conversation is in heaven from whence also we look for the

01:29:20

Savior, Lord Jesus Christ, who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

01:29:30

The Spirit itself beareth witness that our spirit, that we are children of God. And what does that mean to you? I'd like to finish.

01:29:37

And if children, then heirs, heirs of God, join heirs of Christ, so that we may suffer with him, we may also be glorified together. This is adoption of redeemed sinners.

01:29:45

This has nothing to do with... Know ye not that ye shall judge angels. Who judges angels? God. God. Okay, so...

01:29:51

Yeah, not the fireman. We've become God. So the same scriptures that says there is one

01:29:56

God says there's actually many gods. It is absolutely incoherent. No, it's not incoherent. I'm saying you don't understand. No, wait, wait, wait, wait.

01:30:03

Sorry, Dr. White, I'm sorry here. Again, this is why I immediately brought up the context of which those scriptures are saying when it's saying, know of the

01:30:10

God before me, beside me. It's not saying it in the English European revisionist history.

01:30:16

The ancient context? I gave you ancient context. I gave you the ancient context. You gave me liberalism that I've heard longer than you've been alive, and those answers to all of that...

01:30:28

How about this? How about this? I don't think liberalism...

01:30:34

Fair, fair. You made the statement that the potter and the clay is just simply a matter of knowledge.

01:30:42

No, sir. It is a matter of being. I agree. The potter forms clay as he wishes.

01:30:49

God forms us as he wishes. He is not clay with us.

01:30:55

And we will judge angels. That is by grace through the work of Jesus Christ. The gospel, my friend, is not that men can become gods, but that God became a man in the person of Jesus Christ.

01:31:08

It says we can become like God. And you know, we both know. We could quote early Christian church fathers who believed the same thing.

01:31:14

Actually, I tore that to shreds with sitting in the seat that you're sitting in. You know,

01:31:20

I think if you have to say that you tore something to shreds and not another person, I think this, let's talk about one of the people that you quoted on that program would have believed with you that God was once a man and lived on another planet.

01:31:32

Well, I guess we'll find out next life when we talk to him. No, sir. I guess we'll find out. I have taught church history for many, many years, and I'm telling you, listen to me, think with me for a moment.

01:31:41

Dr. White, if those people did not believe that God was once a man and lived on another planet, how on earth can you then interpret them to be saying what you are saying?

01:31:51

Dr. White, okay, well, if I will, I think that there is something important for this conversation that we should remember.

01:31:59

I think that we should let ourselves speak for ourselves. I don't think that we need to say, oh, well, you know, for 30 years

01:32:05

I taught such and such. We don't need to appeal to our authority. Let's just talk exactly what the script says. You're making claims to authority that you have not backed up in the work that you've done.

01:32:14

I believe I've backed it up very, very fairly. But I do think Here's a thought.

01:32:20

Just real fast, just so we don't get off course here. Could you respond to the point that he just made about the early church fathers? Yes. You made a point about early church fathers believing that they could become

01:32:28

God like the God of this earth. Deification. And he responded to that. And you're saying that, well, none of them believed that he was an exalted man.

01:32:35

I just say the idea of him being an exalted man, one, and correct me if I'm wrong here,

01:32:41

I don't even believe that's in the Doctrine and Covenants that God was once a man. That's not in our canon.

01:32:47

Well, the Doctrine in section 130 verse 22 has a body of flesh and bones. Yeah, but it doesn't talk about exaltation because the

01:32:53

Bible says he's a body of flesh and bones. Section 132 gets close. That's fair to say it gets close. And that's why I believe it. He was an exalted man.

01:32:59

Christ was exalted. I think the Father was exalted. However, if you say well, the early Christian church fathers didn't teach that.

01:33:05

They did teach that we could become gods and they didn't teach that God looked like us. So it's not we don't exactly know whether they taught that or not.

01:33:13

We don't even believe they were apostles, the early Christian church fathers. So I don't look to them for complete authority. But you do cite them, and I believe you cite them very, very wrongly.

01:33:22

There's an entire chapter in the book sitting right in front of you where I go through a number of those texts that you used and demonstrated that from the writings of the early church fathers.

01:33:30

So let me ask I will let your fans When you quoted Irenaeus, give me one book Irenaeus wrote.

01:33:36

Here's what I want to do. I want us right now. Can you just answer that one question? Because here's what I don't want this to turn into.

01:33:42

Because I know that a great debate technique and what you do is say, you know this, you know this, you know this.

01:33:49

No. And I don't. What I want I want to ask this. I don't think it's unfair.

01:33:55

But what I want to say is this. I think we if the doctrine of God being an exalted man the doctrine of us becoming gods.

01:34:08

This in our context speaking right now you may not believe it rests upon the early church fathers, but it rests upon Joseph Smith's doctrine.

01:34:15

Is that fair to say? You believe this is the doctrine of Joseph Smith? Oh, most definitely. No one before Joseph Smith. So Joseph Smith, if Joseph Smith was telling the truth, then this is true.

01:34:24

If he was lying, then he was lying. And it's gooblygock. It's nonsense. The way to test the validity of Joseph Smith is not to get into the incredibly deep esoteric well, was

01:34:35

God a man? Can Irenaeus? Can origin confirm that? Blah, blah, blah. No. The way to determine the validity of Joseph Smith is the book of Mormon.

01:34:43

If the book of Mormon is an authentic... How can that be? I'll explain. If the book of Mormon is an authentic ancient record of Mesoamerican history, spiritual knowledge, and doctrine, if it is true and it came forth the way

01:34:54

Joseph said it came forth then we have only reason to believe that the restored gospel, Latter -day

01:35:00

Saint theology, is true. No, no. Two errors. A. The book of Mormon doesn't teach any of this stuff.

01:35:06

Joseph Smith didn't believe any of these things. Am I with the book of Mormon? And secondly, obviously, since it doesn't teach these things, it cannot validate the truth in these things because you have to allow the possibility, hey, maybe it was an ancient record and then

01:35:21

Joseph Smith went off into weirdness in the years after the book of Mormon, right? So even if that were true, are you telling me it's impossible?

01:35:29

Given how many people Joseph Smith himself excommunicated from the LDS church that once had a testimony of the book of Mormon, are you telling me that that actually follows?

01:35:37

Here's what I'll say to that. And secondly, I have lots of reasons for not believing the book of Mormon is an ancient record if anything took place in this hemisphere.

01:35:43

Oh, I know you do, but maybe one day you'll get it. So here's my response. Joseph Smith, he never claimed that God came down and put like an

01:35:53

SD card in his brain and gave him all the information at lunch. In our church, we use this phrase quite a lot, line upon line, precept upon precept.

01:36:00

We believe God gradually revealed things and he gave a little bit, a little bit more, a little bit more, a little more until the doctrine of oh,

01:36:06

I understand God now. It was a staircase up. That's what we're claiming. We are never claiming that it happened all at once and I think...

01:36:13

Wait, wait. But with the first vision, you have a problem. Can I finish? Yeah. Thank you. Do you see what the issue is?

01:36:19

Let me finish. So you have the staircase going up and you have little more, little more, little more, little more given.

01:36:25

The book of Mormon is where you start. And if it is an authentic ancient record of which we have great evidence for, then that means, okay, that first staircase, that was true.

01:36:35

Is it prideful then to go, well, none of this stuff is true. If the book of Mormon is true, the reality is if the book of Mormon is true, then the debate of Christian doctrine, who is right,

01:36:46

Calvinists and Baptists are no longer even on the table. They're no longer there. And if evidence for the book of Mormon is true, then really nothing we even talked about the past hour or 45 minutes really matters that much if we know the book of Mormon is true.

01:37:00

Because it seems within line and reasonable thought that we can trust the later restored gospel doctrines that are witnessed to by many, many people.

01:37:11

Well, your stair -step analogy unfortunately is contradictory to your own position. I don't think it is. So you don't even want to hear a lot.

01:37:18

Can you let us finish the citizen thought? I do. Do you see how you're responding? I'm interjecting because you interject, so I'm trying to match your energy.

01:37:25

Okay. But the problem is that it wasn't a stair -step. Allegedly, God appeared to Joseph Smith in the spring of 1820 and as two separate and distinct physical beings.

01:37:38

Now, there are massive historical problems with the First Vision. None of the churches in that area had a revival in 1820.

01:37:46

It took place in 1824. Joseph Smith himself said that Reverend Lane was the Methodist church. He didn't get there until 1823.

01:37:53

The land assessment records demonstrate they didn't live where he said. Where are you getting this from? A book that I wrote before you were born.

01:38:00

And who are you quoting in the book? The land assessment records and everything else that are available to anybody who wants to look at these things.

01:38:07

You're free to respond. I'll let you each finish your thoughts. I'm finishing, but let me finish the point.

01:38:12

The point is there is massive historical evidence that the First Vision story developed.

01:38:18

In fact, what's fascinating is when I was your age, I went into the church historical department and I photocopied

01:38:26

Joseph's own handwritten account of the First Vision where he doesn't have two persons. I had to show that to people and they were like, no, no, no, no.

01:38:34

That's now being published by the church which is a fascinating change that's taking place over time. Well, we've been talking about that for quite a long time.

01:38:40

Quite a long time, actually. I'm sorry? That's been being spoken about for quite a long time. What's been being spoken about?

01:38:46

The fact that, and one of the accounts of the First Vision, it's only talked about Christ, not the

01:38:51

Father. How many of the nine accounts did Joseph Smith write?

01:38:58

Depends on how you define which nine. What nine are you talking about? Of the nine First Vision accounts we have. From whom?

01:39:06

That doesn't make any sense. Okay, so what I'm saying You're talking about Joseph Smith? Let's take this day right here.

01:39:12

I can write an account of this day. You can write an account of this day. You can write an account of this day. That's three accounts right there.

01:39:18

They're not all from you, or from you, or for you. I'm saying, how many of the nine did Joseph Smith write?

01:39:23

I don't even know what nine you're talking about. That's how many we have. We've got nine. We've got nine accounts of the

01:39:29

First Vision. Depends on how you count them, but the point is that Joseph Smith is not teaching in the

01:39:34

Book of Mormon. What he ends up teaching in the Book of Abraham, which itself is...

01:39:40

You're right, we don't have to... In fact, I will counter your Book of Mormon statement by saying that the Book of Abraham is one of the clearest evidences that the

01:39:50

Book of Mormon is a fraud. No, it's not, because I think the Book of Abraham is beautiful and true, and I think we have great evidence of that with the

01:39:56

Plain of Ol Hashem and with the manner in which Egyptians were sacrificed. We know those things are both true when we're verified. It's true.

01:40:02

It's fact. It's fact. It's fact. When you can turn an

01:40:08

Egyptian funerary document into... You believe in a talking snake, sir. God can work miracles.

01:40:14

You believe in a talking donkey. God can work miracles. I will allow that statement to stand because there is absolutely...

01:40:21

Can God work miracles? I didn't pay you to say that, did I? Can God work miracles? Can God work miracles?

01:40:27

To identify the fraudulent utilization of an

01:40:33

Egyptian funerary document as a miracle, similar to what God would do, is unfortunately a level of deception that is very, very frightening to me.

01:40:44

I don't think it is. I'm sorry. I think it's a fair comparison. It would mean that you have absolutely no capacity to be able to check and balance your own statements.

01:40:54

Well, I will let the audience decide. I won't insult you. Here's what we'll say, though, about the

01:41:00

Book of Mormon. We know from many evidences that it is an authentic ancient record.

01:41:05

It is an objectively true record. And I know that... Completely opposite.

01:41:11

Name me a non -Mormon scholar who uses the Book of Mormon as an archaeological guide. Let me finish.

01:41:16

Let me finish. In your book, by the way, we talk about...

01:41:21

I know that you, in one of your episodes I watched, you actually were quoting Fawn Brody and things like that.

01:41:28

Well, that's probably the worst... To get true Latter -day Saint history, you want to get the newest scholarship and not old, crud scholarship that no one likes anymore.

01:41:36

It isn't true. I'm sorry. Unfortunately. For the Book of Mormon, the way to authenticate it being an authentic, true historical record, we would need to see linguistic evidence.

01:41:50

We need to see that there is a literary parallel to other ancient texts that Joseph Smith did not know about.

01:41:55

We would need to see archaeological evidence. And guess what? We've got that. Archaeological evidence.

01:42:00

Do you have a limna? Could you show me a limna? I'll actually give you some right now. No, no, no.

01:42:06

A limna. I was looking for a limna. Well, I don't care what you're looking for. I'm going to give you what I have. The point is, there are no limnas, are there?

01:42:12

Is there a limna? Please let me finish. You've made a point. No, I haven't even made my point yet.

01:42:20

I didn't give an example. I'm just going to read it. February 2018, National Geographic came out with this wonderful new project where they unveiled wonderful information about Guatemala.

01:42:32

And from this, we know, and I'd actually like to quote Thomas Garethon of Ithaca College, who was on this project.

01:42:38

He said, and this is called light detection ranging, where they can basically find what's underground by shooting lasers into it and find what was there.

01:42:44

And this is a wonderful new technology we were using to find out about the ancient world. He said, among the most surprising findings was the ubiquity of defensive walls, ramparts, terraces, and fortresses.

01:42:55

Warfare wasn't only happening toward the end of the civilization. It was large scale and systematic. This matches perfectly with Moroni 4913.

01:43:02

Moroni had fortified and built fortress security for every city and land roundabout. I'm not finished. I'm going to continue.

01:43:08

Even highways. And there were many highways cast up and roads made. I'll get to that later.

01:43:14

And guess what? We find that there were highways. So again, this is more Book of Mormon things thought not to be true, which we now know are true.

01:43:20

Even with sunken cities, heck, we even have a person verified zenith of the

01:43:26

Book of Mormon. And the Book of Mormon prophet, luckily, we can go to the biblical antiquities written by Philo around the time of Christ where they talk about zeniths.

01:43:37

And if you would like to learn more about this, I would think you should go to BookofMormonCentral .org

01:43:42

Click on the know why. We have a place. We've literally verified a place.

01:43:48

Let's allow interaction. Swords, bows and arrows being used with armor.

01:43:54

Yes or no? Well, one, we have found metal. Not metal. Well, what does it mean by armor?

01:44:00

You and I both know that armor is different material in different countries. It isn't just the European sense of armor. The people who wrote that article, would they affirm that the people they're looking at engaged in battle on horses with swords to where they could scalp other people with a sword?

01:44:15

Yes or no? Does the Book of Mormon say they rode horses? Yes. There are no horses in the

01:44:21

Book of Mormon. The horses are in the Book of Mormon, but here's where I think Protestants get wrong. Did they have swords?

01:44:27

Can I respond? Dr. White? I will respond. Are you using sword in the sense of the word sword or in the way the sword we know about in European?

01:44:40

If you can scalp somebody with it, you and I can figure out what it is. I mean, you can scalp someone with a sword, with an axe, with a knife, whatever you want to use.

01:44:47

I mean, you can use a... Here's a metal gleam. I mean, we know what

01:44:53

Joseph was explaining. We know what he was describing. I would love to... Because this is actually a beautiful, beautiful thing. I think our evangelical brothers and sisters,

01:45:01

I think they would love this information and I think your audience would like it. A meerkat is not a meerkat.

01:45:07

Hippopotamus in Greek means water hog or water horse. For Joseph Smith to say that these were horses, it's very fair that he saw an animal, which they weren't riding, they're using them for meat or they're grazing in the

01:45:19

Book of Mormon. When he's translating. And so to say this was a horse, one, it very well could have been an actual horse and there is some archaeology coming to back that up.

01:45:29

The other answer is if it wasn't a horse, well, it's been around for a while but they're still waiting to really present it full force saying we know for a fact but we're pretty positive there were horses and actually most

01:45:39

Native American legends would agree with that too. Native Americans know their history. And so we could say it could have been a horse but it's also fair to say if it wasn't a horse, in the

01:45:48

Book of Mormon they're not riding horses, they're not riding them holding swords, they're eating grass or they're using them for clothing so it's fair to say he may have seen some animal that he would call a horse.

01:45:57

And we do that, we've done it with animals so much. We say buffalo, we're talking about northern bison.

01:46:02

We say a meerkat because it looks like a cat, it's not a cat. We say a seahorse because it's got like that little spout looks like a horse.

01:46:09

So to say that Joseph Smith meant exactly what you think he meant, that isn't fair. Especially with the context of knowing that there is archaeological evidence for the

01:46:18

Book of Mormon. Nahom, Zenos, highways, fortresses, we know these things are true.

01:46:25

And of course they also had those in China which means the Book of Mormon actually took place in China. I'm sorry, this kind of argumentation is so fallacious.

01:46:34

It's not. It's not. It's not because that would mean Joseph Smith was That would mean

01:46:40

Joseph Smith was the best guesser of all time. He wasn't. He was a prophet. The Book of Mormon has archaeologically accurate information.

01:46:49

The Book of Mormon has archaeologically accurate information. I'm just simply pointing out that this kind of argumentation could be used to prove anything.

01:46:59

That is the problem. It is the specificity of the claims of the Book of Mormon. Yes. I just ask the audience, compare the archaeological information that we have for both

01:47:11

Old and New Testament sites. The cities, the material culture. For example, the

01:47:18

Book of Mormon gives us a specific currency that was present amongst these people.

01:47:24

Currency, especially when it is made of gold and silver, is the longest lasting element of material culture.

01:47:31

We have never found anything anywhere in North America or Central America that has any, well, name it.

01:47:39

That's why I asked you for a limbo. Here's what I'm going to say to you. I was actually talking to a

01:47:44

Native American friend who, well, I won't say friend, but Native American who is a Latter -day Saint. He actually gets offended when people go and they try to compare archaeology of the

01:47:55

Bible to the Book of Mormon. I'll say why. First reason is to hold them to the same standard.

01:48:01

It's to pretend that colonization didn't happen and that Protestant and Catholic people did not murder thousands of Native Americans, destroy culture, and commit genocide amongst people.

01:48:11

One, we don't have lineages and history of many, many tribes of Native Americans. To say the Book of Mormon isn't true because we don't have overwhelming evidence of it.

01:48:18

One, we do have evidence. Two, to say it isn't true because of that is to discount and say that Native Americans and all of these cultures are not—

01:48:26

No, it's not. It is absolutely not a historical disconnection. Can I demonstrate why it is? Please. Will you admit it if you're wrong?

01:48:32

Because I'm not getting the feeling that you'll admit to anything that's wrong. Okay, well, let's not do personal attacks. The destruction of the

01:48:39

Nephites took place when, according to the Book of Mormon? It was about 1 ,500 years ago when Moroni buried the place. And when did the

01:48:46

Spanish arrive here? Oh, boy. I don't know if there's— I can give you the exact date.

01:48:52

A good thousand years later? At least 900, 800 years?

01:48:58

How in the world could they be responsible for the destruction of the archaeological material that you're talking about with lasers?

01:49:05

It has nothing to do with the horrific things that they did. I'm actually really happy you said that because I have a happy answer for you.

01:49:14

This is astounding to me. This is really astounding to me. Well, you know what? Good. I'm happy.

01:49:19

I'm happy I'm making you happy. So, we know when you study civilizations that things are passed down from one civilization to another, especially if it's the same area of land.

01:49:30

Moroni buried the plates, yes. And we know from new technology that there were these big cities that came to be.

01:49:39

So, if there were these cities, if there were 15 ,000 more people in Guatemala than they thought before and there were fortresses and highways, okay, well, that works with the

01:49:49

Book of Mormon. He buries the plates. The Spanish come in. There are all these, there are thousands and thousands, millions of indigenous people.

01:49:57

And Europeans commit genocide and murder many of them. I think it's, I think everyone would agree that evidences and stories and legends and things that would connect to our

01:50:09

Book of Mormon, brothers and sisters, in the text, I think it's fair to say that a lot of that would be taken away and wiped out because of genocide.

01:50:16

Do you know the number of indigenous people that died during the colonialism period? It's estimated to be 130 million.

01:50:23

130 million innocent people, well, I'll say people, I mean, murdered and then diseases spread.

01:50:30

And this is a horrible atrocity. And so, it's very right for a Native American who is a

01:50:35

Latter -day Saint to say, wait a minute, you're saying this book isn't true because we don't have evidence for it?

01:50:40

Guess what? We can't back up the history of my people with evidence either. Are you saying that didn't happen? They were murdered.

01:50:47

That's genocide. Well, actually, I think many people are saying that. Yes. So, if a chief comes to you, if a chief comes to you, no, no, we're talking about archaeology, which we have.

01:51:00

We're talking about physical reality. We're talking about actual coins.

01:51:07

This has nothing to do... Oh my gosh, do you think it's easier to find a highway buried or a coin that's buried? A coin is this big, a highway is this big.

01:51:12

Which one are you going to find first? Coins last forever. I have coins from that time period.

01:51:17

How much of ancient Mesoamerica have we dug up? That's where I find it fascinating.

01:51:23

Do you know? Percentage -wise? That's where I'd like to bring the conversation back to something

01:51:29

I think that's more fundamental because this is, I think, an important conversation to have. I'll let you go.

01:51:35

I haven't talked for about 30 minutes. You're very humble and very nice for letting us spar because it's gotten heated.

01:51:42

I appreciate it. I think one of the things that strikes me as peculiar in terms of when a

01:51:49

Latter -day Saint says that they're representing the same God that gave us the Bible, in terms of your argumentation for the

01:51:56

Book of Mormon, for Joseph Smith, is I don't find in anything that you just said in terms of we need to look at the coins, archaeology, the history, the stuff in the

01:52:05

Book of Mormon, linguistics, these sorts of things, and that's how we'll know Joseph Smith's a prophet. That's how we'll know what he says.

01:52:12

That's how we'll know what he says is true. What I would point out to you is that if you represent the

01:52:18

God of this revelation, then I would say that whatever you're saying, your doctrine, your teaching, needs to be consistent with what this

01:52:25

God actually revealed to us. So I'll just point out to you just a couple things. I think it is consistent. If I could just finish a thought.

01:52:31

So what I would say is that from the Old and New Testament, the way that God discloses himself to us in terms of how to know his voice, how to know if a prophet is from him, how to know if some teaching is true or right, is not in the way that you just described in terms of testing

01:52:47

Joseph Smith via the Book of Mormon. God actually says in the Old Testament a number of times,

01:52:52

I can give you a number of examples, Deuteronomy 13 verses 1 through 4 or 5, God actually says that even if somebody comes and has signs and wonders, they come up with an amazing book, they come up with this amazing thing, it looks beautiful, it looks real, but they lead you after other gods.

01:53:08

Gods which you have not known, that's how you know they're a false prophet. So God basically says, he states, and I'll let you respond to all this, he states that if somebody comes and it looks legit, but they lead you after a different god than me, that I've revealed myself to you, that's how you know they're a false prophet.

01:53:25

Of course you know Deuteronomy 18, I'm sure you know that one. That's the text that says if they have false prophecy, they're a false prophet.

01:53:32

But it goes on, Isaiah 8 20, God says to the law and to the testimony, if they don't speak according to this word, it's because they have no light in them.

01:53:39

And I'll just point you to New Testament, just these examples in terms of showing you that Jesus and the apostles held to this standard.

01:53:45

In Mark chapter 7, Matthew 15, synoptic gospel situation there, Jesus is handling controversy in his day where they're condemning basically his disciples for not following the tradition of the elders, which they saw running alongside the

01:53:59

Bible as essentially like divine tradition in a sense. You've got to do these things. And what Jesus does is he confronts them because he says,

01:54:08

Moses says, appealing to Scripture, and he says, but you say. And he appeals to their side authority running alongside the

01:54:14

Bible. He says, thus, you invalidate the word of God for the sake of your tradition. And I would point, of course, lastly, to the apostles constantly saying what does the

01:54:22

Scripture say, what does the Scripture say, what does the Scripture say? And Paul cites what I believe to be one of the earliest

01:54:27

Christian creeds in 1 Corinthians chapter 4 on this same line of this is biblical thought.

01:54:34

And he says in 1 Corinthians chapter 4, I believe that's the text, he says not to go beyond that which is written.

01:54:41

Not to go beyond that which is written. In other words, don't go beyond that which is written or not to as Christians to go outside of what

01:54:50

God's revealed word is. So the standard from Old Testament to New is the word of God is the principium.

01:54:57

It's the foundation. It's the reference point. And I just want to point out to you, in terms of your defense of Joseph Smith and his revelation, you didn't appeal to anything in terms of what does

01:55:05

God say. You applied some secondary standard, which I would say is foreign to Scripture. So, well, that was a large buffet of things.

01:55:14

So I'll try to respond to all. So the first one is, it's not that the God of the

01:55:19

Book of Mormon is different from the God of the Bible. It's the same God. It's just that the Protestant Reformation and the European doctrine of the

01:55:26

Bible is not the true interpretation of it. So it's not that we have a different God.

01:55:33

It's the same God. I just think you folks are a little misread in your understanding of the Bible.

01:55:38

In terms of the verses that I gave to you, though, what would you say to those? It also says in Deuteronomy that you should not add on to this text and things like that.

01:55:48

And if that was true, we'd discount the entire New Testament. When it says don't add on to the Revelation, it means don't add on to that specific

01:55:53

Revelation. I didn't bring that up, though. That's a distortion of anything I'm aiming at. No, you just said not to add on.

01:55:58

Did you not? I may have misheard you because there was a lot. Please repeat, then. I think I may have misheard. Yeah, it's the same.

01:56:04

All of what I just gave to you just now, from, say, Deuteronomy to Isaiah to Matthew, Mark, and 1

01:56:10

Corinthians with the Apostle Paul and a number of other references, all of it's the same theme.

01:56:16

So I haven't given you a lot of things to think about. I've given you one thing to think about in terms of a thematic thing from Scripture.

01:56:22

It's that the standard from the biblical authors and inspired prophets and apostles and from Jesus is that the

01:56:27

Word of God is the central reference point and it's the thing by which you test and measure any other revelatory claims.

01:56:35

Absolutely. I agree. And what I was pointing out to you is that you didn't agree with that earlier in terms of you said the way to test

01:56:42

Joseph Smith's Revelation is by the Book of Mormon, linguistics, archaeology, these sorts of things. And I'm pointing out to you, that is not what

01:56:48

God says to do to test a prophet. He says test them according to His Word. Well, thank you, actually. Thank you for saying that.

01:56:54

I'd like to clarify if I gave any false impressions. The Holy Spirit is what convicts you.

01:56:59

And I think anyone who's seen anything I've done knows that that is always my go -to first. But if you would like to have, oftentimes when

01:57:07

I talk to evangelicals, they want to know, they want to say, they want evidence of the

01:57:12

Book of Mormon, and they want archaeological evidence, and I give it to them, and they're often like, wow, very blunt. That's not what I'm asking for. Well, that's the example

01:57:18

I gave. I wasn't saying that's how you test the Book of Mormon. It's a way. Evidence is good, but evidence alone is just man -made finding.

01:57:26

If your discipleship was built by man, it will be destroyed by man as well. So I will, no, my way to test the

01:57:33

Book of Mormon does not hold up completely to scientific research. It is with the

01:57:39

Holy Spirit. I mean, in terms of Joseph Smith's Revelation, because when you introduced that subject, you said it in terms of knowing whether or not what he said was true.

01:57:46

Yeah, and a good way to test that is the Book of Mormon, and it's a spiritual test. But if you want to be, you know, less spiritual with it and more archaeological with it, you can also do that, and it wins both.

01:57:58

It's reliable spiritually, and we have evidence of its authenticity. So we're going on the same course here. So in terms of spiritually, from the same

01:58:05

God, the disclosure is the same. God has disclosed himself. He's revealed himself to us.

01:58:10

God says, here's how you're to test a prophet according to my word and my previous revelation.

01:58:16

So, when I look at Joseph Smith's Revelation, say in the King Follett Discourse, and I compare that revelation with what

01:58:25

God has told us about himself for millennia before Joseph Smith came and revealed himself...

01:58:31

I disagree with even that phrasing. So, what do you disagree with there? I disagree with your phrasing making it sound as if the

01:58:37

Bible just says one thing and the Joseph Smith had a new thing. It's consistent. Well, that's what I'm getting to. I haven't got a chance to express what

01:58:44

I'm getting at. So, in terms of in Scripture, we have Revelation from Genesis to the

01:58:52

Book of Revelation. This spans hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years, and all these different authors, all the different books and letters, and yet there's this unified message and thread from God, his own revelation of himself, and he tells us how to test things, how to test prophets, and in that revelation,

01:59:07

God says about himself, as an example, he says, just Psalm 90 verse 2. We can go to a number of other texts.

01:59:14

We just did John chapter 1 already, but a number of other texts says from eternity into eternity you are

01:59:20

God. From eternity into eternity you are God. God has been God from all eternity into all eternity.

01:59:29

Now, as a Christian, when I know that that's God's revelation, and then Joseph Smith comes along, a 19th century

01:59:36

American prophet comes along and says, that's what he is, long, I'm trying to put him in a timeline here, in terms of when biblical revelation was given and Joseph comes along, and he says this, he says, we've imagined and supposed that God was

01:59:49

God from all eternity. I'll refute that idea, and take away and do away the veil so that you may see.

01:59:55

Now, I have a question. Who's doing the imagining that God has been God from all eternity? Well, it's a great question.

02:00:03

First, like I said, God being all eternity to eternity, you can spar back and forth.

02:00:12

You can say, well then, Olam, does that exactly mean eternity? Does that mean, you know, far back as you can think, just far back as you can think, if you want to get into the

02:00:18

Hebrew. And then you put into the ancient context of, well, when they say this, you know, that you use this kind of language, well then, other societies are also using this kind of language.

02:00:28

What does it mean? I mean, the issue I find is that your interpretation of it is not the...

02:00:34

No, wrong. Well, let me finish. The interpretation of eternity to eternity is not what this means in the

02:00:40

English sense. In the ancient, Semitic, Near Eastern definition is not eternity in the way we think of it.

02:00:47

It's not as just forever, forever, forever with no clear definition of forever. And the confusion of people coming later and saying, well,

02:00:58

I guess that's what that means. And then, oh, God's ungraspable. We don't understand God. I guess you can't really have a personal relationship with that.

02:01:04

You can't grasp all these things. Joseph Smith wasn't refuting what the Bible says. He was refuting what the false interpretation of what the

02:01:10

Bible says. Well, I think, well, I don't agree with you there. I think I would say that he pretty much defines what he means in terms of what he's coming against.

02:01:21

He says very clearly, and this is part of what you believe today. You believe that the Father told

02:01:26

Joseph Smith that to join none of the churches for they're all wrong, all their creeds are an abomination, the professors are corrupt, drawn near to me with their lips, their hearts are far from me.

02:01:33

You believe that, and you believe that it was a great apostasy. Absolutely. You know that Joseph Smith was responding, oftentimes, to doctrine and teaching from the

02:01:40

Christian church. So when he says in the King Follett discourse near the end of his life, he says that we've imagined and supposed that God was gone from all eternity.

02:01:48

He says, I'll refute that idea and take away and do away with the veil so that you may see you've got to learn to become gods yourselves the same way all gods have done before you.

02:01:55

He is most certainly responding to what the Christian church has been teaching, and by the way, what Jews have been teaching long before the time of Christ.

02:02:03

No, not necessarily. Well, I think we've got to go to the documents themselves and read here in these texts.

02:02:08

But, and I just want to point out to you here that that's the main point of contact in terms of who we're going to believe.

02:02:15

Are we going to believe God? We believe the Bible, and so because we believe the Bible, we also believe Joseph Smith. Okay, and that's where the challenge is because Joseph Smith's revelation contradicts the revelation from God.

02:02:26

Well, that's why we disagree with you. Okay, I'll give you a couple examples. That same Bible says that God is the first, the last, the beginning and the end, the same yesterday, today, and forever from eternity into eternity.

02:02:37

So we're not talking about a single verse. Is it poetic? To what extent? It's something that's a thread that runs through and through the revelation of God.

02:02:45

Dr. White read to you today John chapter 1, where in John chapter 1 it says, I'm putting that down on record so people can go research themselves.

02:02:57

Go back as far as you want. There's no reference point to stopping. This is not a doctrine that you can say, is it that one verse there that's poetic?

02:03:07

This is a thread through and through where God's grand revelation of himself is this. I'm going to say this to you. He is the only true and living

02:03:14

God. He has been God from all eternity. He will be God from all eternity. What does eternity mean? Everlasting.

02:03:21

What does everlasting mean? Forever ago. See, this is the issue. Again, Joseph Smith is not contradicting the original word of God.

02:03:30

Even though he says that God became God. Yes, because that's true. That's what happened. Let me respond to you.

02:03:37

You just talked for like five minutes. Now we're exchanging because you're bringing up points in response, so I'll respond to what you just said.

02:03:43

You see, the biblical text isn't ambiguous on this point. Many people would disagree with you, so I think it is.

02:03:48

Let me quote the text here then. Isaiah 40 Let's do a number. Isaiah 44 43 10.

02:03:54

Before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I am the first and I am the last.

02:04:01

You don't believe either of those statements. And besides me there is no God. And I tell you, I can go to the exact same language used.

02:04:08

No, respond to that text in Isaiah 44. I will. I can find the exact same language used in other civilizations.

02:04:15

That's not a response to Isaiah 44. In other civilizations, it's a way to heighten your covenant with the

02:04:20

God. That's not a response to Isaiah 44. You've already pointed out fundamental reality.

02:04:27

Dr. White, with all due respect, you haven't. You haven't. You have not. You have said things.

02:04:33

You just haven't listened. I'll say it one more time because everybody already heard you say it. I have listened to you.

02:04:39

I've been quiet for quite some time. I just don't think it's accurate. Okay.

02:04:45

You are wrong and here's why you're wrong. One of us, two of us is wrong.

02:04:51

I'm saying it's you. When you quote from Assyrian religion or from Egyptian religion, the fundamental reality of these religious systems is that they believe that their gods were derived from the creation.

02:05:06

They did not believe That has nothing to do with the language used. That's a different subject.

02:05:12

You have no interest in hearing from someone who has studied this subject much longer than you have.

02:05:18

I'm going to try one more time. I'm going to try one more time. I've listened to you a lot. I do have interest.

02:05:24

I watched your wonderful lecture. Let's do his proposal then your response. When you have religious systems that believe their gods were derived from the creation and hence are not the foundation and creator of creation itself, you can use all the similar language you want.

02:05:44

The reality is the biblical writers do not have that foundation.

02:05:50

The biblical writers do not believe that God came out of the creation. From the beginning, I've been telling you that what makes

02:05:56

Jehovah different is that he's the creator of all things. You cannot find that in their language.

02:06:06

False. False. You absolutely can't. Let's do this.

02:06:13

Show me where they believed that their God... You're the sole one who made all that exists.

02:06:19

One alone who made that which is. That is talking about... This is the Cairo hymn to Amun -Ra. The sole one who exists that all that exists.

02:06:26

All that exists. You know Egyptian religion and you think that that is an extensive claim of creation of everything.

02:06:36

Dr. White, here's what I'm saying. Tell me something about Horus. Well, I'll tell you what

02:06:42

I do know about Horus. Horus is often used as an example to show why from the atheist perspective of why

02:06:48

Jesus is not valid. I disagree with that. There are many people who like to show similarities between Horus and Jesus.

02:06:54

I don't think that's very... I might be wrong, but... The point is that if you understand how these gods came to have the positions that they did, they did so because of their deeds and what they did.

02:07:08

The creation had to pre -exist them. So when they make these statements, they are not stating that everything that exists is dependent upon...

02:07:17

Since they have plural gods... You just asked me, Kwaku, I want you to find where it says that they made everything that exists and I showed you.

02:07:25

From a polytheistic system where the gods themselves are born from other gods.

02:07:31

First of all, to discuss though, there's a bigger umbrella issue here. The umbrella issue here is

02:07:40

I believe that the God of the Bible and the God of the Book of Mormon are the same God. You believe I'm following a different God, a false

02:07:45

God, false Christ. But here's the issue, and I don't mean to derail too much, but don't you believe in predestination and things like murder and the

02:07:52

Holocaust are predestined to happen because you're a Calvinist? Don't you believe that God predestined the Holocaust to happen? Yes, there is absolutely, positively nothing in this universe that is purposeless.

02:08:01

God predestined the Holocaust to happen? Is everything... Is God glorified by everything? That's another question

02:08:06

I have to ask. See, here's the problem. You didn't listen to what I said. I did. Okay, then what did

02:08:12

I say? You said nothing in this universe is purposeless and so you're probably going to say if the Holocaust happened it didn't happen because God predestined it, it happened purposelessly, which is even worse.

02:08:23

Really? It's worse? Well, that's what you would say if it happens purposelessly. So you think it's better that God wound this universe up, didn't see that coming and went, oh man, there's nothing

02:08:35

I can do about it. Well, he gives us free agency. I think God is the one with the free agency.

02:08:40

Well, I think we have the right... I think people can choose. But don't you believe... Jesus taught us wisely. Do you believe that God predestined the sex trafficking that happens in Houston, where I'm from?

02:08:51

Yes or no? Yes. So here's what I want to give to your audience. I would love to see...

02:08:57

Eternity is a part of God's sovereign decree, which is what A. makes it purposeful

02:09:04

B. makes the redemption that Jesus Christ accomplishes upon the cross so specific, perfect and glorifying to God.

02:09:14

But do you really believe that though? Because let's say a little Hindu girl is kidnapped and she is sold into...

02:09:20

Let me... I will continue. A little Hindu girl is taken and she is sold into trafficking. You believe that happened.

02:09:26

God predestined her to be trafficked and murdered. And then you also believe she's going to hell after.

02:09:31

So God predestined her to be tortured and killed and go to hell. He decided all that before. That's a major issue

02:09:37

I see. Well, I have one more point I'd like to make. That's a major issue because you're saying, I believe it from God. Do you believe in a

02:09:42

God that predestined and wanted and was glorified by the Holocaust happening and is glorified and wanted sex trafficking to happen and slavery to happen?

02:09:51

If you want to go on the same God thing, I don't believe in a God that predestined the Holocaust to happen. You're right.

02:09:57

I believe in the true God. I do believe that God planned for the crucifixion to happen.

02:10:03

I do not believe he planned or wanted for the Holocaust to happen. That's the difference between you and I. Was there ever anyone more innocent than Jesus Christ?

02:10:12

Well, of course not. Okay, so God predestined the horrific crucifixion and murder of the most innocent man who ever existed, which means that's significantly greater than any example you've given me because every person you just mentioned was a sinner rightly under the wrath of God.

02:10:28

You recognize that Acts chapter 4 Whoa! The Holocaust was the wrath of God? Every person who dies in this world is under the wrath of God.

02:10:38

Good. Happy for that clarification. Alright. That's what I said. Well... So you accept that the most innocent person in the world was predestined to die upon a gory cross and that's what

02:10:51

Acts chapter 4 says, but then you struggle that there is a purpose to everything else that someday we will find out?

02:10:57

I understand that you do not have the God... No, no, no, no, no! Not purpose. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying you believe that everything glorifies

02:11:04

God. You believe that God predestines everything to happen. that everything will glorify

02:11:10

God in the working out of the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. There's a difference.

02:11:16

No, there is a difference. Here's the issue though. Believing that the holocaust happened not because of man's free agency in the wickedness, but because God predestined it to happen.

02:11:24

That's a, if you ask me, I don't like to get into the semantics. You just demonstrated you have no idea what we believe. Well, I would like to know,

02:11:30

I don't want to get into the semantics. I don't want to get into the semantics of different God, different God. But I do, I would say it's fair to say that I don't think it can be.

02:11:37

Necessarily declared the exact same God. If you believe that God predestined and made, so little girls and boys are sex trafficked and murdered and left into holes.

02:11:47

God does not do that. He doesn't do it. He doesn't do it. And they're not of God. They're not of God. They're not of God.

02:11:53

If you ask me, then your God made that happen and just didn't have a purpose and wasn't smart enough to make things work out. Mankind made that happen.

02:11:59

No, and here's the issue. Hold on. Now my turn to step in. Okay, my turn. All right. So here's what you're, here's what you're neglecting to notice.

02:12:07

Is that not only are you promoting a God that is not the God of the scriptures, the God who says he declares the end from the beginning and from ancient times, things which have not been done, saying my purpose will be established and I will accomplish all my good pleasure.

02:12:22

Our God is in the heavens. He does whatever he pleases, whatever the Lord pleases. He does in heaven, in on earth, in the seas and in all the deeps.

02:12:31

That's not the God of Mormonism. It absolutely is. If I could finish, you just said that it wasn't because you said that your

02:12:36

God was impotent and had nothing to do with the Holocaust. Um, he, you don't think

02:12:43

God had to do with the Holocaust? You see, my God, my God, my God declared the end from the beginning. And even in the midst of a rebellious, hostile, evil, wicked world of people who are at war with their creator, he still was able to sovereignly wield his purposes and control in a fallen world.

02:12:58

The Holocaust did not surprise my God. My God was in charge of the Holocaust. Your God wanted the Holocaust to happen.

02:13:03

Oh, my God was absolutely, did he want it? Absolutely determined to glorify himself through everything that happens in this world.

02:13:11

Watch through either his grace or his justice. God will be glorified. Did God want the

02:13:16

Holocaust to happen? Yes or no? If, if he did not, it is a purposeless evil. I'm answering you.

02:13:22

And I want, I want your audience to see this. This is not, this is not a good thing. I'm answering you and you're not, you're not listening.

02:13:29

Here's the problem I'm having with you. And I mean, this with respect to you, oftentimes things are said to you. And before the words leave my mouth, you've already responded before actually hearing what

02:13:38

I have to say. Well, to be fair, that's what all three of us are doing. Let me just say it to you again. No, that's not true. Let me just, let me just, I'm trying to respond to each and every point you make.

02:13:46

So what I said to you was that if God didn't determine that, then it's something that was purposeless evil in your scheme.

02:13:55

What happened in the Holocaust was outside of the control of God. And it was purposeless evil.

02:14:01

Evil men thwarted your God. In the Bible, in the Bible, God declares the end from the beginning and he accomplishes his will and purpose in heaven and on earth.

02:14:10

And no human being, no matter how mighty and strong from a human perspective can thwart my

02:14:16

God. I would love to respond to that. And I want, I hope you're, if your audience is still listening because oh boy, we've gone for a while.

02:14:23

Well, you brought up predestination. I did bring a predestination. And the issue is, it's not that my

02:14:28

God was the true God, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of the Book of Mormon and the

02:14:33

Production of Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price. It's not that Heavenly Father was surprised by it. Heavenly Father gives us agency to decide what we do because that's an entire part of the eternal process and growing.

02:14:44

And if we're going to be alive forever, we're going to have to learn choice. The issue is God, if he were to just interject and control all of our agency, our existence means nothing.

02:14:55

We're just puppets. And so I want people to remember that God gives us agency.

02:15:02

The Nazis, the people who lit people on fire, the Calvinist Puritans who burned people at the stake, slave owners, sex traffickers.

02:15:10

How about mountain metals? How about mountain metals massacre? Oh, I'd love to talk about it. God does not determine those things.

02:15:17

God does not want those things to happen. That's mankind. God did not want the Holocaust to happen. God did not want colonialism or slavery to happen.

02:15:24

And I want everyone watching to know that you have a father in heaven who loves you. Kwaku, stop. And I want everyone to know that God is the

02:15:31

God of goodness and will always be on your side as long as you trust and choose his side. Kwaku, listen to me. I need you to hear me very seriously now.

02:15:38

You're invited on this show to have a dialogue. The one thing you will not be allowed to do on a Christian show is proselytize for the

02:15:44

Mormon church. So I'll tell you, you can defend your position and we can debate, but you will not be allowed to proselytize on Apologia Radio.

02:15:51

So that's just a warning. So you can defend your position. You can argue your position, but you cannot proselytize on this show.

02:15:57

Well, haven't... Well, what you're doing... Sorry, haven't I been doing that the whole time? No, you've been having an engaging conversation with two

02:16:03

Christians. We've been going back and forth, but you will not be allowed to proselytize on this show. In the same way,

02:16:08

I would not be able to proselytize for the triune God of Scripture on your show. Oh, well, we would let you.

02:16:16

We would let you. Fantastic. Have me over in Salt Lake. I'd be happy to do it. So go ahead, Dr. White.

02:16:21

Did you have something you wanted to say? Okay. God does not predestine the Holocaust to happen. God loves us. So let me just point a couple of things out, and we'll end the show with this.

02:16:28

You demonstrated, and I hope you spend time working on this area. You demonstrated in how you illustrated these things that you don't, in fact, understand the

02:16:36

Reform position that you're so strongly arguing against. And so I just want to encourage you to spend more time on this subject in terms of understanding what we actually believe.

02:16:47

Which, by the way, we have spent... Absolutely. I do not have a firm... I do not have a complete grassroot on Reform. You don't have an accurate grassroot. Jeff and I have spent many, many, many more hours studying

02:16:55

Mormonism and reading the original sources than you have. You don't know that.

02:17:01

So... You don't even know me, Dr. White. You met me today. When's my birthday? Then you have... It's my horoscope.

02:17:06

...in regards to Christianity. Again, you just... Look, I think that we've made a lot of assumptions today.

02:17:13

I just want to... We can end this on a good note. Wait a minute. Are you claiming to have done more study of historical

02:17:19

Christian theology than I have of Mormonism? I don't know your life or anything you've done.

02:17:27

I want to know some of what you've done. I don't know your life. I'm not going to make any claims about you as a person or any...

02:17:33

Are you what you like? I don't want to attack any of your beings or your personalities. The point he was making there, and you're being...

02:17:39

I think the problem is you're being so defensive, even on minimal points we're trying to make here, that it's not necessary to be defensive over it.

02:17:46

He was just responding in terms of my saying to you that you need to spend more time understanding this because the way that you illustrated...

02:17:51

I will read all of these. I'm so glad you will. I mean that, seriously. But the way you illustrated what Reformed people believe about the will of man and choice and everything else demonstrates that you don't...

02:18:01

I don't think I... You haven't spent the time. You, Kwaku, I can tell you with all that's in me, you don't, and you're reflecting it completely inaccurately.

02:18:09

Reformed folks, I would say the Apostle Paul, Jesus, and Peter, and all the Reformers did not believe, do not believe, that man is a robot, that he's not making choices that are willing choices that he wants to make, that God is controlling people in terms of making them do things they didn't want to do.

02:18:28

We believe what the Bible teaches about the will of man, where the Bible teaches whoever commits sin is a slave of sin.

02:18:36

But God does predestine that sin to happen. Hold on. Yeah, well, I believe absolutely God's in control of all things.

02:18:41

I mean... So the Bible teaches about the will of man, whoever commits sin is a slave to sin, that we are dead in our sins and trespasses by nature, children of wrath, that we are hostile sinners, rebels, helpless, wicked.

02:18:52

I'm quoting scripture now before God. That's our condition. So you describe mankind in terms of, you talk about a free will, but the

02:19:01

Bible... Agency, yes. But the Bible talks about the will of man in terms of it's enslaved to sin, it's dead.

02:19:07

We are alienated from God, hostile towards God. That's how the Bible describes our will. So all of humanity, those who were involved in the

02:19:15

Holocaust, those who were involved in colonialism and everything else that you described, those were hostile rebel sinners against a holy

02:19:23

God. And they were making choices freely. They wanted to do it. Yeah.

02:19:29

And when God allows... And God actually restrained them. That's right. And when God removes his restraining hand sometimes from the wicked hearts of men, sometimes you get the

02:19:37

Holocaust. Sometimes you get Georgia early on in America. Sometimes you get all of these wicked moments where God removes the restraining hand and you see the evil that is really in men's hearts.

02:19:48

However, he removed his restraining hand, but he put it forth already. He wanted it to happen. He predestined it to happen. And you believe it's going to work.

02:19:54

I absolutely... That's the difference I see. I do. And here's the problem. Until your heart is changed and your eyes are open, you will never ever want to worship a

02:20:03

God who is actually sovereign, who is actually not like you. Who is actually not in the created order like yourself.

02:20:11

All I can say to that is that I worship and follow the true

02:20:17

God of the Holy Bible and the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants for the great price. That's what

02:20:22

I believe. And we will disagree. I don't believe that God predestines wickedness and evilness to happen.

02:20:31

Evilness, gosh. I don't believe he predestined those things. I think that is horrid. I think that's an evil doctrine.

02:20:37

And it no way shows that God is loving because it's not accurate. I think that... And also just to be clear, the reformed position...

02:20:44

Well, let's test me right now. Let's see if I got this right. Okay, hold on. I just want you to know, if you're going to continue this on... Oh, how much time do we have?

02:20:49

We're already about two and a half hours in, maybe more. Fair. Maybe we should close it out. We can continue the conversation later and I'd be happy to do it.

02:20:57

But I just want you to know, if you open the can of worms... We're going to go for like an hour. How about this? It might be more reasonable that we close it out then.

02:21:03

Yeah, let's close it out. And I'd be happy to have you on again, or we could even do it by radio conversation. Have me on the three

02:21:08

Mormons and allow me to proselytize like you just said I could. Well, how about this?

02:21:14

I will fight for you to be able to come on. To come and preach the biblical gospel and the biblical Jesus. Preach the reformed gospel.

02:21:19

But it's only 13 minutes long. Yeah, that's right. The Jesus... Yeah, we do a short show. The Jesus who is actually the creator of Satan and not his brother.

02:21:27

Well... You'll let me preach that for Colossians. The brother of Lucifer, not Satan. Well, you get the point. We're talking about Lucifer.

02:21:33

So they're brothers. Right. But the Jesus who created Lucifer. You'll let me promote that and teach that on your show.

02:21:39

Did the father or the son create Lucifer? If you understood the doctrine of the Trinity, you wouldn't be asking. Well, I don't think people can understand the doctrine of the

02:21:46

Trinity because it's a mystery. My kids can. If you read John chapter one, verses one through three, and Colossians chapter one, verses 16 and on, you'll see that it says that Jesus Christ created

02:21:56

Satan and everything in existence and nothing's come into being except through him. That's a different Christ.

02:22:02

So not the father. The father didn't. Father, son, and spirit work together in perfect harmony in the creation of all things.

02:22:08

So then... So it's not just Jesus. Then it's all three that created. You see, it's... Again, it's one God. It's one

02:22:13

God who created all things. It's one God. The Trinitarian look at that verse doesn't make sense because it's... But what we're not escaping from is my point was you said you'd allow me on the show or try to fight for me on the show to preach that Jesus.

02:22:25

And I hope that you follow through with that because I would love to do it. But I would encourage... Actually, I don't... So I don't...

02:22:30

Like I can only propose. It's a whole... It's, you know, it's a group of people. That's fine. I understand. But please fight for it. I will. I'll even pay my own way.

02:22:37

But John chapter 1 verses 1 through 3 in Colossians 1, 16 and onwards, what I point you to in terms of who the real

02:22:43

Jesus is. Thank you for having the courage to be on the show today. Thank you so much for coming. I'm sorry if it got heated.

02:22:48

I'm sorry. It's been lively and great. There was some tension. I didn't want for that. Oh, no, no, no.

02:22:54

I'm... We love you and we care about you. Obviously, we're all passionate. And I think one of the things I respect about you, and I mean this, is that you...

02:23:02

We've talked about this quite a bit. I have wanted for so long to run into the young Mormon that is passionate about their beliefs, that wants to go to the mat, that wants to defend it.

02:23:12

Because I want to tell you that for the last decade and a half, I've been outside talking to Mormons on the street who are just not as engaged and as courageous as you are.

02:23:23

So I want to thank you for that. So Dr. James White, thank you so much, brother, for being on the show.

02:23:28

Next week, very important debate you have in Florida. Please be praying for Dr. White and Dr.

02:23:34

Michael Brown. They're going to be bringing the gospel into a very difficult context. Please be praying for that. Lift them up.

02:23:40

And I have to tell you how I'm really fighting again.

02:23:45

My sanctification is happening right now because Dr. White bought you the most amazing Bible ever.

02:23:51

And I don't have a Bible like that. Jeff doesn't even have one. I don't even have one like that. It was a good gift. It's an amazing gift.

02:23:58

You don't understand. There's men over there right now, like drooling over that gift that you have on the table right now. So guys, alphanomegaministries .com.

02:24:05

I hope you make it out of the studio. That's right, yeah. They're looking a little big. They're trying to grab it.

02:24:11

So three Mormons, Kwaku, thank you so much. You've been a blessing to us. Thank you. Everybody who's been watching, there's over 1 ,000 people watching live.

02:24:18

Oh my heck. Pretty much the whole time. Yeah, it's been pretty great. Thank you for watching, guys. Make sure you guys share it.

02:24:23

We'll catch you guys next time on ApologiaTV. Sorry, go to ApologiaStudios .com for more. Thank you.