Grace Fellowship Church - Saturday Q &A Panel

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The following recording is from our Grace Fellowship Church Conference 2025. Please visit us at graceedmonton .ca

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to learn more about us. You can also find us on Instagram, Grace Church, Y -E -G, all one word, or on Facebook.

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You can also find us on YouTube, Spotify, or wherever else you listen to your favorite podcasts. Please enjoy the following recording.

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So what I have sought to do is to put together all of the Q &A questions so that we they're a bit more thematic.

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So in some of you, we had multiples, sometimes two or three of the same question in some variation.

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So listen for your question. It might be worded slightly differently, but I've tried as best

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I can to get them in. And the first question, and this is directed to both of you brothers, it's pertaining to day one,

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Michael, your sermon. And the question is, how do you distinguish between emotionalism and a spirit -induced biblical emotion?

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That's a very good question, and it is a challenge these days. But it's not a hard question.

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The difference between emotionalism and genuine biblical corresponding emotions is, emotionalism is the desire to seek and feel emotions for the sake of feeling.

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Emotionalism is not what we're seeking. What we're seeking is not even emotions.

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We're seeking truth. But now listen very carefully. Emotions are involuntary.

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What do I mean by that? You just don't sit down and just decide, I'm going to make myself happy, or I'm going to make myself sad.

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Emotions follow thoughts. For example, if you got a phone call right now, and a person that you trusted said, you just got a check in the mail for $50 ,000.

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I saw a smile or two out here. Just that thought brought a sense of elation, right?

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So what created the sense, that emotion of joy or happiness? The thought. And you believe the thought, and therefore you felt happy.

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Equally opposite, if you got a phone call that somebody you loved very much was sick at the point of death or had died, you would immediately feel sorrow.

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When you read your Bible with desperate dependence upon the

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Holy Spirit to make that truth understandable to you, and when he does that, and he will, faith is ignited.

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Because faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. In the moment faith kicks in, faith sees that truth as reality.

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And so if it's real, there is a corresponding biblical emotion.

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Joy or peace or many other corresponding biblical emotions.

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Do you see the difference? One, I'm not seeking that. I'm just seeking to believe what

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God has said to me out of the abundance of his heart. And the moment I do, it will happen.

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It can't help but happen. That's the way we have been made by God. We never want to seek experiences for the sake of experience or emotion for the sake thereof.

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But at the same time, you must not, you cannot deny biblical corresponding emotions.

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Because if you do, you've stripped the heart and soul out of Christianity. Amen. Mack, would you add anything to that, brother?

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Well, I can't. Is this on? Might need to turn it on, I think. No, it's on.

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Okay, you're good. I can't top that, but I can add a little hors d 'oeuvre at the end.

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Maybe it'll be sweet dessert. I think there's, Michael's my technician.

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He fixes everything. He fixes everything in my life technologically that I can't. That's the only reason he brings me along.

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I tell him to invoice me for the hour. So I think in our day, to me this is a practical issue.

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God has made us with emotions. True emotions are not sinful.

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In fact, you can't worship God without emotion. And one of the things

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I'm going to mention briefly in the closing message is that emotions are not theoretical.

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They're experiential. I mean, you can't be happy in the

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Lord without feeling happy, right? Emotions are always feelings.

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But in our day, there's a, go back into the

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Puritan era. They affirmed that worship involved the totality of man.

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So in mind and heart, and emotions are part and parcel of that.

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In our day, there's a growing tendency for the creedal, stiff, reformed movement to downplay emotions.

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And that's wrong. Because if we are told that emotions, feeling them and expressing them, are the equivalent of emotionalism, then we won't express emotions, and we're afraid to.

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And we'll be quenching the Holy Spirit when we're out in worship. So, there's a growing tendency, because of the overreaction of the charismatic movement, which is all emotion, all experience, you know the whole nine yards.

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There's a pendulum that's swung that any of that, that smacks of emotion, is suspect, is dangerous.

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Don't give in to it. Just use your mind to hear the truth and believe it, but suppress your emotions.

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And that will not be a healthy Christian at all. So, each person, some are more emotional than others.

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Some have highs and lows, some are steady. But when you feel joy in the Lord, embrace it.

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When you feel the desire to, you know, maybe raise your hand in worship, you've never done it, go ahead.

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These things are biblical, right? When you feel, I was preaching,

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I was on vacation, holiday, is that your word? In Destin, Florida, a couple years ago.

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And we attended the, a small, wonderful Presbyterian church. Tremendous pastor and preacher.

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And he was preaching a marvelous sermon from Psalm 16. It was spot on.

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It was full of life. And every wonderful statement he made, about every four minutes,

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I would say, Amen. Well, later, when we met, he said,

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I knew you were a Baptist. We don't do that here. But the people loved it.

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And he and I are good friends now. So, Brother, what Martyn Lloyd -Jones said in the 80s, maybe, maybe 70s, maybe earlier.

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He died in 81. Yeah, he died in 81. So, he had 80s that were one year, he could have said it. He said,

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I believe the Reform Movement is guilty of quenching the Holy Spirit. And we don't want to be stiff, starchy eggheads.

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Amen. Emotions are a gift of God.

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And they're wonderful to express in private prayer, properly in corporate worship, properly in the prayer meeting.

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But yeah, so that's all. Very helpful,

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Brother. Very helpful. Again, Mack and Michael, but Michael, maybe I'll speak to you first about this.

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In your exhortation or guiding us, encouraging us to abide in Christ, the questioner asks,

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I have entrusted myself to Christ. I have a deep abiding desire to have this relationship with Him.

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But I struggle with what this looks like in practice. What does it look like boots on the ground to have that relationship?

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And if I can add, maybe someone asked almost the same question, but in the life of the local church.

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So, maybe individually, and then to expand that corporately. When John 15 verses 1 through 9 became real to me, it was truly one of those transformative moments of my life.

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And that is a passage of scripture that I always return to, John 14 through that 17, that whole discourse.

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Because what Jesus is wanting to do with those disciples, in fact, I would love to be able to come back sometime and just teach on the parable of John 15, the whole thing.

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Because when you understand what Jesus is doing, He knows He's no longer going to be bodily with those brothers.

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And here for three and a half years, they've depended upon Him in a physical way. You know, one of the reasons their prayer life was terrible because they didn't really need one.

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If they had a problem, they'd go to run to Jesus. They had God in the flesh, who by the way, was filled with the

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Spirit without measure. And so He's trying to teach them, but then they're going to have to be weaned from the physical in order to now operate in the spiritual realm.

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That's all that that's about. So if you learn that that's the theme of that whole discourse, then you can now read it and you can learn how to do the same thing.

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Because that's our problem too, we're weaned to the physical. Our physical senses drive much more than they ought to drive.

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They are given to us to operate in a material world, but they have a limit. They have no help in the spiritual realm.

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God is spirit and God is seeking those who will worship Him in spirit and in truth.

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So let's take those two words, spirit and truth. And herein is how you abide. Again, I wish

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I had four or five sessions just on this, but so to say it succinctly, it is to take your

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Bible and number one, don't read it for information only.

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Quit doing that. In fact, you'll be interested to know that there's not one verse in your

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Bible that tells you to read the Bible. There is a New Testament verse,

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Paul tells Timothy to not neglect the reading of Scripture, but he's talking about corporate reading. The Bible doesn't tell you to read it, but it does tell you to study it, to memorize it and to meditate on it.

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And of course, in order to do that, you have to read it. But we are reading for the sake of reading.

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We have a poor mentality. We think that if we read a chapter a day, the devil will go away.

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We read it as if it's some checklist or preventive maintenance. And if I don't read my chapter a day or three chapters or McShane's reading, whatever your schedule is, then somehow you will not receive the favor of God that day.

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That is not why God gave you the Bible. He gave you the Bible that you might know him and his heart for you.

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And so now, as I'm reading the Scriptures, I'm praying, Holy Spirit, quicken, open my eyes that I may behold wondrous things in your law.

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And as I'm reading, I'm doing something else. I am reading it.

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I'm meditating, which again, we need more time to explain what that means. But then

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I'm also praying. I'm praying what I'm reading back to the

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Lord. And while I'm meditating and I'm praying, I assure you invariably the spirit takes what

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I'm reading and my faith is quickened because the word is illuminated to me.

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And when that happens, that's fellowship. That's as much an encounter with the living

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God as Moses had at the burning bush. It's no less an encounter. It may not be a sensational, but it is an encounter with God.

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And that's that's how you abide by the spirit and by the truth.

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It takes the truth of God spoken by through the word, but it also takes the

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Holy Spirit. We have a misnomer. We're so afraid. We're so afraid that the charismatics and the

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Pentecostals and anybody that believes that God subjectively leads them, that this is going to diminish the sufficiency of scripture.

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That's ridiculous. It's not even logical. It's the scriptures that tells me what experiences are valid and which ones are not.

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God never leads contrary to scripture. And it's the, but it, it requires the scripture requires the

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Holy Spirit to illuminate it, to give you understanding. And if that doesn't happen, all you've done is intellectually increase your knowledge of the

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Bible, but you have not experienced fellowship in God. Does that help?

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It helps me. Hopefully it helps the person asking the question that really needs several hours of teaching and preaching on to really prove the arguments that I'm postulating here in just three minutes.

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Could I say something about asking questions in general? You know, most of the things we really learn.

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God teaches us over a period of time and we're taught of the Lord. So beware of wanting quick answers from leaders who aren't experts in everything.

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There aren't any. And it's kind of like, you're interested in a topic, you're deeply burdened about some help for something.

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And you go to someone you trust, whether your own pastor or elders, or a man at a conference, the question is expressed, and they'll give a five minute reply, maybe.

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And you latch on to something that sounds good. And then you go away.

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And you just take the report on how to view that thing briefly.

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And then you think you understand it. You think you have all the answers, or maybe we presume we do.

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I studied one aspect of the work of the Holy Spirit for 20 years, hammering it out in the scriptures and in reading and then asking men

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I trusted as light dawned and understanding came. There are no quick fixes in sanctification or in coming to understand the truth of God.

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Be patient with yourself. And God himself will be a teacher as you're in the word regularly.

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And as you're praying for the Holy Spirit to teach you, we will show you the things of Christ.

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And you'll see things that you get from God that are far superior to what you get this weekend from men.

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So beware of depending just on questions for your answers. I need to do a follow up.

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I would like to describe that experience of God when the word when the spirit takes the word you there will be one of two responses or yeah responses or both either conviction or joy or both.

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I've never been convicted by God that I didn't have joy that he loved me to not let me get by with sin.

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That's what happens when you're reading the word and the spirit illuminates and that is that encounter. Now I need to be balanced here.

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I don't want anybody to take something and go to the extreme. When you're reading your scriptures you have to read two different ways intellectually and devotionally.

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So first intellectually I mean you need to understand what does the text really mean. We're not here to find some new novel interpretation no no no we want to know what did the author mean and intend to the original audience.

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So that's reading intellectually but now that I know that now I read devotionally how does this apply to me and you pray through it you meditate on it and as you're doing that that's when the spirit at his prerogative will teach.

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So I want to make sure we're balanced here we're not just saying not to study the scriptures or not to read the bible but to read two different ways intellectually and devotion.

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Amen now I'm supposed to ask the questions but I want to give part of an answer too as just as I'm thinking about this

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I remember a conversation we had a couple of days ago brother and how much I've learned from Christian biographies as well just to see how other men have have done it not that it's a prescription but that it can it can render some assistance and in how men have done this in the world in which we live and I think of George Mueller every day he sought it was his purpose to to open the scriptures and to become happy in the

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Lord that was I had the quote pulled up in front of me the the first great and primary business to which

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I ought to attend every day is to have my soul happy in the Lord and and walking with the

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Lord with your with your bible before you and Donald Whitney I recall reading a book praying the bible which was a very very simple book and yet just a revolutionary idea for a new

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Christian to pray with my bible open and and and and there's the information aspect of it and the transformation aspect of it if I can if I can use that cliche yeah very good the session to the pastors that quote oh that's where it was okay forgive me no no no no no not original with me you get it twice if you're here for both sessions okay here's another question

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I believe the gospel with all of my heart and I desire to please him but when

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I look at my life I see very little evidence of the kind of change that should accompany regeneration how can

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I discern if I am truly saved that is a question and I appreciate it this is probably not the best forum for that yes because each person is different here and there is no pat answer

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I the book that that was on the table the fight of faith how a

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Christian can experience assurance salvation I go through a lot of this but each person is different their experience is very different their backgrounds are different the personalities are different and so it has to be more of an individual approach in dealing with that soul but in general

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I would say this to everyone whether that person would be lost or saved and one more thing before I do give you that I think our approach has been wrong when we're dealing with these kinds of folks our approach is often to try to encourage them and to make them feel better and to make them to feel like yes

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I am a Christian that's the worst thing you can do it's I think it's biblically logically wrong how do you know the heart of an individual

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I seldom know my own heart my own heart deceives me how would you be able to know that in counseling that person

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I always assume they are lost because if they are saved I'm not going to hurt them but if they are lost and I assume they're saved

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I could damn their soul or contribute to that so that's why I want to be very careful in this forum about answering that but here is one thing

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I would say to whether saint or sinner the problem is looking into your own heart there's your problem if I look into my heart right now after all of these years of walking with God I'm going to tell you it's like a dumpster dive you know what dumpster diving is don't you jumping into the big big old trash bin and scrounging around to salvage something or find something of value when

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I look into my heart it's the exact same thing I cannot find anything good so in second

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Corinthians 13 5 Paul says examine yourself to see whether or not you're in the faith and we've taken that verse as an exhortation that we ought to be always in examining introspectively looking within that's not what

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Paul is talking about he's talking about you need to judge me the same way you judge your own hearts they were actually doubting

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Paul was even maybe converted but there is a healthy biblical introspection but here it is are you listening say amen it is that you look into your heart as long as it takes to find a reason to look away to Jesus so it is healthy to look at your heart but with the intent to find a reason to believe in the gospel again so that's what

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I would encourage anyone who says I think I love Jesus I want to please the

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Lord but I just don't know if I'm saved the answer whether they're lost or saved is the same it's the gospel and that you believe the gospel believe that Christ is your only advocate before the father now again we could go much deeper and it would depend upon the individual and the answers because I have a series of diagnostic questions

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I would ask that person to try to get a better grasp of where they are okay okay

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I'm curious if I can follow up on that just for for maybe local church pastors who are counseling what would some of those diagnostic questions be the most important one is not tell me about an experience you had that you might subscribe to ascribe to salvation rather my question and I lead up to this but this is the ultimate tell me what happens when you sin describe to me your state of mind and heart when you have sinned because a sinner can never answer that properly if they're honest they cannot but a

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Christian if he is genuinely saved there's a biblical response he may not even know it but he will tell it to me in one way or another

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I'll hear it yeah yeah mac would you add anything to that brother well uh you know um michael was right when when he initially when he talked about this there this the answers for different people it's going to be on a case -by -case basis for instance he the part of the question was the person said

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I don't see evidences of maturity in areas or just that that what some would call that that the instantaneous change that some would expect regeneration well it's a wrong presupposition to hear someone else's testimony or read an account and you necessarily will have an instantaneous change a powerful conversion some do some don't it's like that jesus said you know regeneration is like blowing in the wind but there will be change but some people who are perfectionists or legalists are going to begin to introspectively look for real evidences they hear they read jonathan edwards resolutions or is that what he was called it was a resolution yes or they hear you know they compare themselves and their heart and mind to a godly christian they know which is always wrong and so they think they've got to have advanced sanctification to even be a believer and no kind of maturity or sanctification or change inwardly is necessary to believe the gospel we come naked we come empty -handed we come maybe feeling emotion we might come feeling not much but we can come to christ freely unconditionally and believe the gospel and when i was converted when i was 19 i was out of church then i was raised in a gospel preaching church got bored by it got out of it after high school i was in college and uh the night i was converted was a complete surprise it was i had no spiritual stirrings i wasn't interested any longer i was not hanging out with any christians and so that saturday evening july of 1973 was a complete surprise and i broke down i didn't know how to pray but prayers came out and what i prayed was jesus i have nothing to give you but my sin and myself but i know you're the savior of the world lord i'm all yours here that was my sinner's prayer and so i came freely no one under conviction and no weak believer who struggles with assurance needs to look anywhere inward be honest with what you feel but we don't look inward we don't look outward at others we look upward and assurance will come as believers walk in obedience walk in the light they have and do what god has commanded in scripture so amen it reminds me of a quote that i often share with with our church for uh from mcshane for every look at self take 10 looks at christ that idea that that obsession that just as you said brother we look in words just long enough to see our need for him and then we look to him yeah but i'll tell you what it's a lot it's a lot easier to quote mcshane and do what it is because you know when you sin and you're grieving sad and emotionally you're so grieved what is what is our first response naturally we don't look to christ but first sean 2 -2 is so fabulous it's the only verse that specifically tells a christian that addresses the christians when they sin if any man sins what's the next phrase he has an advocate i think think of that when a christian realizes they've just sinned the immediate answer from god is not to look here but to remember the gospel i have an advocate in heaven who died for that sin i just committed and he loves me and it's forgiven and therefore the goodness of god will lead me to repentance so amen thank you brother that's excellent next question i have when the lord first saved me and i think this is probably a question that many christians can relate to when the lord first saved me i enjoyed a close walk with god but as i grow as a christian i'm afraid that it seems that my zeal for god is less than it once was is this a normal experience and how can i remedy this those those boys 139 137 they still remember that yeah but we tried to do things like that and we always did that every day and we prayed with them but we didn't they weren't lengthy because they couldn't handle a lot of it and then when they became teenagers you had to become more creative a little longer but not a whole lot much longer no more than 20 minutes um included singing prayer and then i would teach them a brief devotion yeah i just think uh that's exactly right brevity is important um creativity where you engage at their level and endeavor to make it interesting the worst thing imaginable is for some father who thinks he's a puritan to do a 50 minute reading i've seen it happen and i've also saw the faces of the teenagers children they're very respectful but that's a very great mistake to make brevity creativity applied a memory verse a singing of a hymn and including them as they get older they can read they can participate and you keep it 15 minutes or thereabouts they will not get bored with it they won't start dreading it and um so that's what it ought to look like when we go to church well you just never know i mean i just realized hearing his how i never did family worship in a quality creative way i never dressed up i'm kind of joking but that's those boys have never forgotten that and um so you know modeling as a husband and wife and enjoyment of family worship modeling an excitement about it where it's not a legalistic beauty because the vice parents put off the children are going to recognize and see kids so yeah when we were doing family devotions we didn't have the resources you have now and i want to give you a resource and you may need to help me reformation heritage just put puts out what's the what's the book that goes through every chapter of the bible the family worship bible that's it yeah man i always thought i had that yeah that was that would have been so wonderful but there are you have resources now that we didn't have and so avail yourself to those but let me say one final thing quickly it's not just the family devotions that are powerful in fact i think there's one thing more powerful than that and that and that's just an opinion it's not something i could prove it's the conversations throughout the day seize don't just save everything for the family devotion throughout the day look for things to happen with your children that you can teach them about their heart about god the gospel just little snippets don't make a sermon out of it maybe wise more wise to just ask them questions and things but i was always looking for things to be able to turn the conversation to something about god and teach them whether when it was outdoors and you know something of nature which is nature's full of sermons just a little just a little nugget here and there all the time all the time amen if that if that doesn't happen if we don't do that we're compartmentalizing the natural and the spiritual in an unhealthy way that is might be more important than having a set time so that's very good well that's excellent and i'll make mention of it if they're still at the table there there is the family worship bible guide on the table as well as another book that i would recommend if i can sneak in and answer edgewise and that is it is called theology or theology depending on how you want to pronounce that and and that it's it has wonderful illustrations it's a systematic theology for children and in my children probably wherever they are they can still i imagine still remember that the page where there is speaking of the putridness of sin a bird sitting on the edge of a glass with its droppings in the cup and the idea of sin not not just not just distorting those the whole idea was well if if you can just scoop the droppings out you can still drink the water right no sin ruins everything in the glass and and and they would regularly ask me dad can we read the bird one let's read the bird story again so that that can that can be very helpful speaking of resources this is for parents not for children as much i give this i say i encourage young parents all the time ted tripp's book shepherding the child's heart is excellent you need to read if you haven't especially if you have children in the home amen okay i'm going to shift gears again and we're just to speak about pastoral ministry and missions for a moment i'm going to combine two questions so those of you who ask the questions you know who you are but a brother or a sister um at least in missions how would they discern a call a properly discern that and for a brother discerning a call to ministry something that's perhaps just outside of that objective desire if we can say it that way well i think both a missionary call and a call to ministry the how do you know the answer is the same for both i categorize it in two categories of the subjective and the objective when i was converted soon i was going to be a coach and then within three or four months after my conversion i began to lose that desire and i was in a good church i had a faithful pastor that did expositional preaching and i was fed by him and i was stirred by his example with toward desires for ministry and so internally desires coming if any man desires the office is he desires a good thing right so there's a gotta be desire and that's from within that emerged and it maintained itself growingly because i was faithful in church from the beginning of my christian life at 19 years old god made me a churchman i was in the prayer meetings i was in college i was in the prayer meeting on wednesday i was in sunday school i was in worship and so i was always there and i grew in the context of local church life my gifts emerged and my calling became deeper so the subjective was there but a person can have a subjective desire to be a missionary or a pastor but not have the gifting for it and they don't know it's him right and so the objective confirmation must come from your church and your leaders recognizing in you gifts that are clearly there a man's gift scripture says will make room for him it doesn't say a man makes room for his own gifts a man's gift will make room for him as he grows in those gifts and as he submits to the to christ to serve him and as his church gives the amen on that person's life or on that couple's life the church will verify if the calling is legitimate and every christian should want the church has to have the church their own church to confirm their calling either to pastoral ministry or to be a missionary very good i don't think i can add anything to that that's that would be my answer god's call begins with the desire that's planted by the spirit of god in the heart and it's confirmed by the church if your pastors don't think you're qualified you're not qualified now there are exceptions to the rule through church history but if they're godly men they will recognize whether god's called you or not and the church will know it as well so but i do think he you do i'm appreciative that max said objective and subjective it seems like we've made the call of god purely objective and that's why we've got a lot of men in the ministry that shouldn't be in the ministry subjective i think yeah i'm sorry yeah we've eliminated subjective it's all objective and that's why there's a lot of men who go to bible college and seminary and they go out and they and they're they're not called there's no equipping there's no gifting there's just a desire but i remember when god was dealing with me having been a preacher and then get converted you know i i immediately didn't preach didn't didn't didn't even pursue that for three years god had to deprogram me and then reprogram me with the scriptures i had a lot of doctrinal baggage that had to be it's had to be sifted and removed but i remember going to work day after day after drive 45 minutes and i'd weep all the way there and weep all the way back not because i had a bad job and hated it but because i wanted i had this burning fascination desire to preach and it just increased and here's one of the ways i think you can test this subjective here scripturally is that if god puts something in your heart it's not like human emotions human emotions are like roller coasters with time if it's human origin it it'll subside eventually or until something fires that thing back up but not when god's dealing with a man it increases with time it's like jeremiah said fire shut up in my bones i can't help but do this when god was dealing with me about resigning from the pastorate and to go full -time as an itinerant and evangelist it took me a year and a half to really say okay god this is you i tested everything all of that but it began it began with a simple desire and it increased over time i remember telling my wife sweetheart do you think our time is over here she said no i don't feel that so i never said another word to her about it never never try to persuade her i went to my other two fellow elders man they broke down and wept like babies and said no we don't think god's in that so i never said another word anyone just started just kept praying and it intensified and that went on for a year and then god began to deal with my wife and then i went back to the other elders and i said brothers this thing's only growing let's pray again so for 90 days we prayed not talking about it just prayed at the end of the 90 days we all three said yes this is of god but i did something else because the subjective has to be tested i called this man because he knows me as well as anybody except my wife and then another young man that i had discipled who we helped we planted the church and i asked these two men do you believe i have the gifts to be able to be an itinerant minister an evangelist and they both confirmed it said they've always seen that in me and but then finally we had the confirmation of the church so there is an objective but there's also subjective and i believe in that and you'll never convince me otherwise it may not be as dramatic for one person as it is another but there's a call of god and i'll tell you why when you get into the pastorate and problems arise that you cannot resolve if you cannot say i know that i know that god put me here you'll pack your bags and fold you need to know that you're where god has put you because he's your only resource one very brief final comment on that i believe the surest way if you're called to ministry whatever that might be the surest path to get there is not starting with oh that i need to i need to create opportunities for me to preach i need to be doing things that you do when you are going to be in ministry and i think that's wrong the surest path is to become the most consistent faithful church member you can become and serve and be available to your elders and deacons and and get in and cultivate faithfulness and and then your gifts will emerge your leaders will recognize man they are very consistent in they're here for prayer reading regularly we can set our our plot by that guy and you become consistent and faithful they will entrust you with ministry opportunities because they know you're you're faithful they know you're doing what you should do and the lord will um expedite a faithful couple or a faithful man who's just being a churchman and serving because he will entrust him with more because he's being faithful in the little it's interesting being not that long in pastoral ministry being on both sides of things to appreciate just from this perspective as an elder in a local church how much it stands out when you have a devoted and faithful churchman or church member it really and this is i'm not speaking about my church brethren don't get don't get offended but but what i mean by that is is just the that level of consistency and and sometimes and we've heard other brothers speak about this is how when we do see someone faithful it's it's almost so odd that we think they must be because they're serious about the lord um yeah but no brothers and sisters go back to your churches and be those faithful church members whether called to the ministry or not you are called to the ministry ultimately yeah okay i'm gonna bunny hop a little bit or i'll pose a question that's closely related to that and seminary what counsels would you give we just had a brother speak about baptist college i know you won't be offended at the variance of use if there are any brother but but in terms of of seminary education what are some counsels perhaps some encouragements or cautions that you would give i'm not again it that's a kentucky way of saying not against it but i have to remember that the church of the lord jesus survived 1600 years before the first seminary or bible college i think the principle that jesus gives us paul repeats it on brother joe quoted in second timothy 2 -2 is that god expected the leaders to disciple those whom could be trusted with the gospel and in turn could teach others and that's how men were trained for centuries i still think it's the biblical principle in fact i remember i'd said that but and pretty dogmatic about that and one day i read a letter that al moeller president of southern baptist theological seminary he said the only reason seminaries exist because churches are failing to do what god taught them to do which is second thing that they do do if they would just send local churches would do what they're supposed to do we would be out of business wouldn't be necessary now that's a probably hyper hyperbolic statement there is still advantages i think to formal education and i'm not opposed to that but i i always tell any young man that his call he or senses a call make sure get under a godly man who knows god knows how to walk with god and just do what he just said just serve that brother just shadow that man and that's my first piece of advice and again i think the ministry really depends what kind of ministry you will have whether you need how much education you would need but that's my opinion it'll be as it may thank you brother mac would you add anything well i've studied in two seminaries in america and some men it will mess them up some men it will make them arrogant some men if they're walking with god can benefit and be equipped at an elementary level it's artificial to think though that a man can get sufficient theological education in three years and now he qualifies to be a pastor that's artificial that means that he is if if a man chooses to do theological education if he comes out of there that period of study with knowing how to study more properly knowing hopefully using the languages in some way and knowing who to read and who to avoid reading then that can be beneficial so that's all i would say i went to a bible college i went to seminary but one of my professors told me all that we attempt to do is to teach you how to study that's what he said that's our goal to teach you how to study and for for some men that is essential because they don't know how to study you know mac and i probably not the run of the mill i'm a self -learner i question everything i have to explore everything i love to read um but there are some men are not disciplined that way and seminary is necessary for them to give them that so again it has its place but again i'm not going to just give a blanket answer and say that to this young man that he needs to go to seminary he may not again i think that you need to be led by the lord but i'm thankful for the joel for your ministry and the ministry of your seminary um and i was encouraged to hear about the work here so grateful for that i also thank you can i add one more thing i'll let you i think the key is if you can get churches on board and work with those local pastors to help them disciple those young men too that to me is where i think this ought to be going higher education ought to be going but that's just a thought i don't think if anyone's going to do seminary studies or theological training they need to have a mentality that it ought to be uh quick and get it over with because if someone spent five years or six years on a three -year track they take it slower they process the material they really master it they're going to be taught of god more than just getting a quick degree because that a three -year degree let's say if it's three years and you're studying every conceivable ministry area you're not having a deep dive to really learn that area you're so you're so under pressure to pass the courses and make the grades and get through the 800 pages of reading and you know three weeks so you don't have time to process and meditate and pray through so a slower approach is probably more organic and more beneficial in the long run so like theological study is lifelong michael and i with two of our elders in our church and then every thursday if at least three of us are in town um beginning around 7 30 a .m

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we will read for an hour and a half slowly john owen on communion with god the next one i'm going to go go to is the volume on the holy spirit and it's a slow read and it's a slow discussion sometimes we'll spend 15 minutes on a paragraph and we'll look at each other and say now what's owen saying here actually well and we we go slow and chew on it and we regurgitate it and we we try to master it as we go and it has been the most rich or the richest time of discipleship just being with the brothers over deep truth that i've had in all my years as a christian uh so our education whether we're a man or a woman or any christian we're going to learn the deep things of christ as long as we live so amen there's been many thursdays we only got one page read that's true yeah it's it's yeah it's fabulous it is john owen so it is for those who know john owen um okay we're we're over time but i want to ask one one fun question and that is if you were stuck on a deserted island with only your bible and one other book what would that other book be the fight of faith by michael so his book sold out so it's you know there's there would be so many good answers and the answer would vary from person to person but if you could just have one and you understood what kind of the book's about you almost couldn't improve on the pilgrim's progress tomba because it it covers the entire christian life all the way to heaven and all the everything that christian went through so that'll be my answer today good answer the book that god has used in my life more than any other book is a w tozer's book the pursuit of god but i don't think that would be the book i think it would be martin lord jones's studies in the sermon of the mount i think that way again i'll give a testimony about that book my wife went and i married in may of 1978 and uh that summer we read that book studies in the sermon on the mount by martin lord jones and it absolutely turned my whole world upside down it was revolutionary it's the best book on the sermon on the mount anyone could read in my opinion and uh i would trade pilgrim's progress for lloyd jones well that's a great answer excellent brothers thank you very much you've been very very helpful uh comments and answers we greatly appreciate it i feel bad about the one question that i couldn't give a more detailed answer and whoever asked that question i'm available i'd love to talk to you if you want to come and talk to me about assurance of salvation that you know i think it was like the second or third question yes yeah amen and brothers and sisters thank you so much for your questions we greatly appreciate it i'm sorry if we didn't if we didn't get to all of them i see we're five minutes over so what we'll do we'll reconvene here at 320 so that's uh just just under 15 minutes from now so thank you so much thank you for listening to another sermon from grace fellowship church if you would like to keep up with us you can find us at facebook at grace fellowship church or our instagram at grace church y e g all one word finally you can visit us at our website graceedmonton .ca