Does Christian Nationalism help society? New Evangelicals vs Kenton Little

All right, let's count it down. Well, hello. Hello. Welcome to the special live stream everyone. I was just giving you a little time to jump on there. My name is Greg Moore host Edmund walking podcast.

We got a special Monday night live stream for you with Tim Whitaker from the New Evangelicals. And it took me a minute to find his handle because I kept typing in new evangelicals. And it's new evangelicals.

And.

And Kenton little how you brothers doing. All right, so we're starting off this live stream. Perfect. I've already got hate from both people on both sides of this issue going. Why are you talking to either one of those guys?

So I think we're we're doing well. You know, but we want to have a discussion on Christian nationalism. I actually stumbled across an interaction you two had on X and I think it was on the new event evangelicals page or maybe it was the other way around correct me if I'm wrong and I saw Kenton you respond to something and then Tim respond to something and then I think Kenton or one of you said or Tim I just said hey, why don't we just discuss this?

So I got in the DMS and I said, why don't we talk about it? And you guys both said yeah, let's do it. And you know, that's something kind of rare. On social media when people kind of have opposing views boy.

Do we like to be cowboy keyboard keyboard cowboys? Excuse me instead of actually just talking about it and going. Okay, we disagree. Let's figure it out. So that's where we are. So tonight we're going to be talking about does Christian nationalism Actually help society and to do that.

We kind of have a framework of what that definition is. Which we kind of laughed about that in the in the DMS of going well. Most people can't even we've got 20 different ways to define it. So the working definition.

We're going to be working with tonight and it might fluctuate a little bit and as we have a discussion Disagree about this or pull this out and say no I think it's this or or whatever that is is this Christian nationalism is a cultural framework that Idealizes and advocates for a fusion of a conservative Protestant Christianity with civil life.

It holds that this version of Christianity should be the principle and undisputed cultural framework in any particular nation. But I'm gathering we're going to be talking about the United States here most tonight and that that government should vigorously preserve that Christian framework.

So for you listening or watching or viewing that's kind of the framework. We're going to work with in the definition. We're going to kind of introduce each of our guests. Then we're going to kind of give them like an informal opening statement where they stand on Christian nationalism and then we're just going to get into discussion maybe ask questions back and forth and then at the end of the hour if you Have a question that you would like Tim or Kenton to answer throw it in the chat.

I'll be monitoring those and then we'll do a little question and answer at the end and see how it goes. Does that sound good guys?

Sounds great. I'm in.

Cool, so let's throw it over to Tim first. Can you just give us a little couple minute origin story of Tim Whitaker? Who are you? What are you all about and.

Let the people know yeah, my name is Tim Whitaker. I grew up homeschooled. I grew up in a very John MacArthur Church very Calvinist in in origins believed a lot of it my whole life. I mean I feel like if you haven't listened to the Paul Washer sermon where he Yells at the youth group kids like what are you doing with yourself, you know?

So that's how I grew up and fully believed it very much today still a Christian despite what many detractors think. But I since have renegotiated my faith and what it means to follow Jesus as closely as possible.

But yeah, my background is Evangelical fundamentalism. I'm a product of it. I inhaled the theology read the books. You know, that's where I come from and I started the New Evangelicals in December of 2020.

Just asking questions about my faith after being concerned about the direction of where it was heading. Turns out I wasn't the only one and we grew very quickly and now we're a nonprofit Organization that helps people find a better path forward in their faith away from Evangelical fundamentalism, etc.

So that's what I do now.

Yeah, so clearly there is whatever it is that you're out there talking about there are a lot of other people either feeling the same way or or they know that you're bringing in some type of value because both your social media accounts your website the Nonprofit has all been growing by leaps and bounds in the last four years.

So Yeah, very interested to see that Kenton. I always want to keep calling you Ken. Gotta make sure I put the 10 on there. Yeah, didn't give us a little bit about you. What are you all about? Where you from?

How'd you grow up stuff like that?

Yeah, it's an odd name. My name is Kenton. I'm over here in Houston. I also grew up homeschooled. I also grew up in a very fundamentalist background. Nice. Look at that what's in common look at us in the in the IFB Denomination if y 'all are familiar with that.

Recently over the past two years or so My theology is also greatly evolved into something that is quite a bit different. Now my theology is more akin to what what Tim grew up with a little bit more Reformed than than John MacArthur would be but I would call myself a reformed Baptist.

I know some people don't like that that term, but I would call myself a reformed Baptist.

And.

My my theological position would be I'm a Calvinist I hold to reformed eschatology and that kind of defines how I Approach this issue as well. But as for me, I I have a small YouTube channel that I'm not very active on.

I'm planning on upping that and upping the activity next year. So if you want to follow me there. It's monarch ministries and you can keep an eye on that.

Awesome. So this is crazy. We've got three Homeschoolers in the chat tonight and I'm actually homeschooling my three children right now. And I'm old enough to where they would send social services to our door.

And hey, why isn't your kid in school? And I don't know if I can one-up either one of you because Fundamental Baptist and John MacArthur are pretty conservative. But we even did Bill Gothard a TIA for Wow Family said that's too far for us.

Our church touched the growing kids. God's way. Curriculum. My parents are like even for us. It's a little too strict.

It's here's the thing the older you get the more you start to see patterns in society you start to see pendulum swings and that was a pendulum swing of the 80s and early 90s to to cultural reform and I Think we're in this isn't totally on the subject, but I think Christian nationalism is.

Nationalism is part of kind of a pendulum swing not that I'm planting any ideas there or anything. But that's just kind of how I see it. Maybe we'll get into it later. But alright cool great introductions.

We know a little bit more about you guys. Let's go back to Tim and Tim. Why don't you give us you can take up to 10 minutes if you don't need it. That's fine. We'll do the same for Kenton but give us kind of your stance your view your beliefs on Christian nationalism as a whole and then.

Maybe try to answer that question. Does it benefit society at all?

Christian Nationalism and the Good of Society

Sure. Yeah, I have a few like just notes I'll read off of just to kind of get my initial thoughts out there that we can discuss. I also want to just be clear to people. I'm not an academic. I have no college degree.

This is not someone who comes from that world. On my end, so I'm not trying to pretend that I'm someone that I'm not. I just do my best like I'm sure all of us do to read and study and understand things as best as we can.

And also on a side note. It could be a good discussion later on in life to have a one around deconstruction what it is and what it isn't. Since all of us have similar origin stories and went in very different directions.

That's a very interesting phenomena that I picked up on over time. So, okay. So the question tonight though is does Christian nationalism help society. It's not is it biblical or if there's a theological argument for it?

Okay that that isn't the conversation tonight. I mean, I'm gonna imagine that Kenton will probably using a lot of Bible verses to justify why Christian nationalism is biblical and therefore good. For society, but even if it was biblical, I don't think it is to be which by the way to be clear I don't think that it is but let's just say it was that doesn't mean it's automatically good.

I mean, I don't think slavery for example is a good thing despite the Apostle Paul telling slaves to obey their masters. And that was a very common proof text used by American slaveholders to justify by owning slaves with biblical.

So just because something is in the Bible doesn't automatically make it good. But again to be clear the argument is not is it biblical or theological it is does it help society? We ready to find the term Christian nationalism, which by the way the foundation of that definition comes from Sociologist Andrew Whitehead who was one of the leading voices and scholars on Christian nationalism.

So there is empirical data that fuels that definition. You can look up his work. I'm not just pulling it out of out of my hat. Kenton tweaked it a little bit, but the general gist is the same.

So.

To be clear a couple things here. My answer to does Christian nationalism help society is no. It does not overall it helps a particular set or sect of society. Perhaps mostly I would argue conservative white people and minorities who would assimilate into the world view.

But everyone else is usually targeted by Christian nationalism for one reason or another and to be clear too. I did have a definition Of society here. Where is it? It's defined as the aggregate of people living together in a more or less ordered community.

So it is a pretty broad definition tonight. So just a couple of pieces of evidence here of why I think Christian nationalism is not good for society. Or doesn't help society first off. We can look at some individuals who talk about Christian nationalism.

Stephen Wolf For example, the author of the case for Christian nationalism said that under Christian nationalism blasphemy laws are enforced and that we should throw atheists in jail. So it's certainly not good for the atheists in our society to be under the rule of Christian nationalism.

Because they'd be thrown in jail if Stephen Wolf got his way. Joel Webben says that every form of contraceptives Should be ripped off the shelves of CVS. So it doesn't help people who want or maybe even need Contraceptives for other health reasons besides using them as birth control and by the way Joel Webben in particular Also agreed with a Confederate apologist on his show that most of the abolitionists will be in hell.

Which I think is telling about how Joel and many Christian nationalists, especially in that sect view slavery and racism. Which again does not benefit society at all. It actually only harms many in our society.

So you might argue that I'm just pulling, you know random arbitrary examples of two men, you know who hold no power. But we do have data on how Christian nationalists view all kinds of topics. For example, 80 of Christian nationalists don't believe in living in a society where other people are allowed to practice their religion.

So for the people currently in our society right now who are not conservative Christians Christian nationalism does not help them at all. It's actually very bad news for them. Again, I go back to what Stephen Wolf said about throwing atheists in jail.

I know for example, Doug Wilson wants to put Jesus Christ as Lord in our Constitution. Which again does not help at all other people in our society who would hold to no such belief. 40 of Christian nationalists believe that things have gotten so bad that true American Patriots may have to resort to violence to save the country four out of ten.

And again, I hope we all agree on this call and this chat that if violence is not good in any form. That does not help the country or benefit society. So I'm not gonna you know, take all ten minutes. I really want to get into more of discussion.

But there's plenty of reasons why I believe that Christian nationalism as it's defined does not actually help society. It might help certain people in this society who would adhere to its views. But everyone else is probably seen as an enemy of said Christian nationalism.

And therefore if Christian nationalism gets its way enemies of the state and such that does not benefit society.

Okay, thank you. Kenton, would you like to kind of give your opening statement same thing kind of where you land on Christian nationalism how you came to that conclusion and then Does and I'm assuming you're taking the other side of this.

Does Christian nationalism benefit society?

The Great Commission and the Nations

Yeah, so thank you first of all I want to say this whole conversation came together because I replied to a Skater a video that you put out Tim where you talked about evangelizing Christian nationalists.

And I said Tim I will DM you my address if you come in evangelize me. So what I want to say is I want to reiterate that invitation if you're ever in Texas or in Houston next time. Please hit me up and I will invite you over to my house and I will cook you a steak dinner.

I'm in awesome. So We're talking about Christian nationalism today and we're talking about the subject. Does it help society? Does Christian nationalism help society and We've already been given a definition of that what I want to Frame is that Christian nationalism is the idea a more simplified definition that Christian nationalism is the idea that the nation's ought to base their laws and their customs on what God has revealed in his word and This comes from this the the foundation for this idea is based on what Jesus said before he ascended into heaven His final words the Great Commission the words of our Lord, right?

If all of us are professing Christians, we should all affirm what Jesus has commanded us his final commandment before he ascends into heaven Matthew chapter 28 all authority on in heaven and on earth has been given to me go therefore and make disciples of all nations baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit Teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you and behold.

I am with you always to the end of the age so the Great Commission Provides us the foundation for Christian nationalism what it is is that Jesus is making the claim that all authority on earth has been given to him and because of his authority because the earth belongs to him his disciples should go and The the language that he uses is make disciples of the nations Baptize the nations and teach the nations to observe all that God has commanded all that Christ is commanded.

So.

If.

Christ's commandment is that we should make disciples of the nations then the question is is What Christ is commanding good for the people? He's commanding it for well. Well, who is Christ again? We are all Christians in this in this conversation here.

We all claim to be Christians in this conversation here and so we all believe that that Christ is the second person of the Trinity that he is indeed God and Therefore that he is the creator of all things that he created heaven and earth.

Right is Tim. Would you? Would you agree with that?

What that Jesus created the heaven and the earth? Yes. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Okay good. I.

From the Trinity I from virgin birth resurrection from all that awesome fantastic and so what we understand all three of us is that God created all things and then he called all things very good and so if He created all things and he created all things very good Then we can infer from that that all things that he commands are for the good of the people he created it for so if God's commandments are fundamentally good and Jesus commanded That the nation's should bow down and obey him that we should go and disciple the nations that the nation should be baptized in the Trinitarian name then what we say when we say that Christian nationalism is Fundamentally not biblical or fundamentally not good for society.

What we're saying is that that thing that God has commanded what Christ has commanded that we obey is not good for society. What we're doing is we're taking our own wisdom and We are putting our own wisdom above what God has commanded and putting ourselves in his place to say no, I have more Knowledge about how the world works.

I I know what's better for society than what Jesus does. So if Christ has claimed that all authority belongs to him and Based on that authority that we should go and make disciples of all nations that the nation should obey him.

He's doing that for our good and for his glory everything that God commands He commands for our good and for his glory He says all things work together for good to them that love God and to those who are called according to his purpose.

So What we're talking about is is it good for society? And what we're going to get into when we're talking about that is what constitutes good for society, right is being a part of another religion that is Opposed to the religion of Scripture.

Is that good for society is being Homosexual good for society is abortion good for society is these thing. Are these things these cultural issues that Christian nationalists like myself would oppose are they good for society or Should we affirm all these things in opposition to What Christ has commanded in his word and so?

Christian nationalism is good for society because Christ does not command things that are not good for the people he created.

Okay, yeah, so that's kind of gets it gives us a little taste of where both of you guys are at now the fun starts. Let's just discuss among ourselves. So you guys laid out Two really different ideas there.

It looked like Kenton. You kind of replied a little bit more to what Tim said. So maybe I'll throw it back over to Tim. Tim Do you have it? Would you have a question for him or do you have a maybe a response to what he just said about?

You know even quoting Matthew. I have a thousand questions. I want to try and be succinct though I mean one of the big ones listen I mean we. I could argue well. Why the even the idea of a nation in Jesus time is not the same thing at all.

It's how we think about nations today, but that gets us in the weeds out for sake of argument. I will not address more the theological perspective on that side. My biggest question is and this will get really I think to the core of our disagreement is What are God's laws in the Bible that are prescriptive for a nation?

And then how do you decide so is that is God commanding Israel to wipe out the nation next to them? Is that one of God's laws that we should be applying for certain circumstances? Is it certain ones in the Levitical law in the in the Torah?

Is it the teachings of Jesus when you say God's law? I hear this all the time. What laws are exactly we talking about? Then how do you define or how do you even get to which ones in the Bible would be prescriptive versus descriptive because.

To me as far as I can tell it seems a lot of and by the way, I don't mind this. But I just feel like Christian nationals aren't honest about this a lot of picking and choosing. You know James 5 for example is a pretty clear condemnation of rich business owners who exploit their workers for unfair wages.

Yet, that's not I mean, there's no talk about holding Elon Musk, for example to account for him being able to profit. Unfairly off of his working class despite James 5 being clear that we can say that's one of God's laws.

So I'm just kind of curious for you how you think about what God's law is and what these definitions and parameters are.

How you get there? So yeah, good question. One thing that I would ask is as a point of Clarification is when you say, you know Christian nationalists pick and choose and you give the example of James 5.

Give any other examples?

Well, I mean we can go. I mean listen I can go down the stereotypical route right of like should I have a clothing made of two different polymers, you know. Should I be able to eat lobster or not? Those are all commands given by God.

We could are and I'm sure we would agree they were given to God for a certain people for a certain time. But that's the crux is how do you decide? Which laws in the Bible and there are a lot of them. Some could be applicable some might not be.

How do you decide? What God's law is when you use that term like what's the definition for that? Okay. So yeah.

What I'm gonna state is and I'm sure you're familiar. You know. If you if you're familiar with guys like Joel Webb and Doug Wilson Steven Wolf. Some of these guys on the reformed Christian nationalist side.

Are you are you familiar with the threefold division of the law?

You mean like ceremonial?

Ceremonial civil and moral, right? Yeah, I'm very familiar. And so what I would say is when we're talking about God's law If we and I don't have the citation in front of me, but we look at the book of Hebrews the book of Hebrews is going to tell us that the Ceremonial law of God specifically has been totally abrogated, right?

And so the way that the confession that I subscribe to the 1689 confession is going to say is that We should obey and and subscribe to or we are not Beholden to God's law other than the general equity of that law.

So what we are going to or what I advocate for as a Christian nationalist. Is that the moral law of God is universal, right? The the Ten Commandments the summary law of the moral law. Or the summary of the moral law written in the Ten Commandments is a universal principle.

Romans chapter 2 tells us that the moral law of God is written on the hearts of men and so based on that moral law we extrapolate and exegete all the other laws that God has given and Define them based on how they've been applied in the Old Testament to that particular people and we apply that law based on the moral law to our To our present day.

Does that make sense?

Just two things number one because we're debating don't mind me if I'm a little bit, you know aggressive I don't mean it in bad faith. I just get really into this stuff. So that's why I said but I mean you're really all over the place here first.

You're appealing to the 1689 confession. Then you're appealing to the Ten Commandments and you're quoting 2nd Corinthians. So like is there a standard set of laws that you would say this is God's law?

And again, if the Bible is the inspired Word of God as you would hold and you're a biblical inheritance Why are you comfortable being able to subscribe to the 1689 confession as authoritative over what's clearly in the Bible?

And this is the riddle. I can't solve. I don't even by the way just to be even more clear this idea. The threefold division ceremonial. What is it moral? I think whatever the other third is. That's also not inherent to the Hebrew Bible that those categories are not in the text.

They're added on by people.

Reinterpreting what these laws mean and how they function. Well, why do you like the reinterpretation?

Well gives you because I if the because if I read the biblical law to you about not having mixed fabrics. You would interpret that law and say no. No, no, even though doesn't say in the text.

There's a reason why that law in all I believe. Yes, I believe that's found in Leviticus chapter 18 in That context talking about mixed fabrics. What is what is the purpose behind that law you tell me?

Well, I'm asking you Because when you look at the surrounding laws, they're about not mixing fabrics, right? And and there's a bunch of other laws in that surrounding context about not mixing things. The point is in Israel in National Israel at that time at that place They were supposed to be a peculiar people set apart for a specific purpose that purpose was to bring about the Messiah, right?

God promises Abraham in Genesis chapter 15 that he will that his offspring will be a blessing to all nations and so the purpose behind that law not mixing fabrics and the reason that I can say that we're not beholden to that law is that the moral purpose behind that law was to Further explain the the difference and the separation that Israel had with with other nations and so because I'm not an Israelite and because True Israel has come because Christ has come and has fulfilled that law.

We're not beholden to it, but we are still beholden to what is Written in God's moral law we're still beholden to not commit adultery to have no other gods beside the one true God to Not have any graven images Not to murder not to steal.

We're still beholden to the moral law of God.

Just two things and I mean, it's all due to respect you you just there's no. You're just that's just made up like like what you said about like the fabric thing. Representing not mixing things and that that's the interpretation.

Like where do you get that from? Is it in the text somewhere? Is there a commentary that you can cite? I need actual evidence for why that that's a biblical interpretation. Like Leviticus 18 is in the same passage where you talk about not having sexual relations with other types of people.

Okay, including I believe you know, I believe this is the passage in here I think it's in here also where it mentions don't sleep with people of the same sex. So can we agree then that if you're gonna argue against this stuff?

The Levitical law as a whole should be tossed out and we can go down to the teachings of Jesus as far as God's law. I'm just trying to understand when you say God's law. What are we actually talking about here?

Like what are this? What are the parameters besides? Oh, well, that's moral. That's ceremonial. Even though again the text never says that you're adding that into the text. What are is the teachings of Jesus because I would love to go there and we can we can compare and contrast what Jesus teaches Us versus Christian nationalism, but what is this God's law thing?

And where are we getting it from that is steep in some kind of objective reality when you say Where does God's law come from? Right. What I what I've been explaining is that the moral law of God provides the framework.

The Summary of the Ten Commandments provides the framework for the laws that we should implement into society. So When I talk about Christian nationalism, what I'm saying is that our laws should reflect the moral framework of the Ten Commandments.

Okay, Ten Commandments. So we're getting rid of the other laws that God gave the Israelites. That's not part of God's permanent moral law. The Ten Commandments is it?

I would say that there are laws within the law that that God has given to Israel that reflect principles from the Ten Commandments and those laws are Applicable in some way to us. Okay. Got it beneficial.

I'll use the word beneficial. Got it. Do you have questions for me?

I don't want to hog all the question time.

Well, you said let's go to the words of Jesus. What specifically do you think that Jesus says that would oppose Christian nationalism?

Blessed are the meek. Love your enemy as yourself. Probably thinks about how rich people aren't gonna enter the kingdom of heaven. There's that's just a few to get started. I mean Christian nationalism is built on the ethos of we're in charge and we rule the whole teaching in life of Jesus is that He bore a cross for his enemies Christian nationalism losing in crucifying theirs is.

Authority inherently bad.

No, of course not.

So then why is it bad to have in a Christian nationalist framework. What we have is that we want Christian principles to govern society, right?

Well, you don't you want some you you don't want. You don't want your enemies loved in a Christian society. You want to throw them in prison? Okay, so it's throwing an atheist in prison a Christian ethic.

Is that loving your enemy?

What would the what would we throw the atheist in prison for. Because.

Blasphemy according to Stephen who authored the book the book the case for Christian nationalism. I'm just quoting people who claim the Christian nationalist mantle and he did say under Christian nationalism Women are not leading in any major capacity and atheists are thrown in prison.

I'm all for blasphemy laws, by the way. That's an actual quote from him. So I'm just asking how is that loving your atheist neighbor by throwing them in prison just for being they are.

What.

What constitutes committing blasphemy under his framework and what you're getting at there is that if an Atheist breaks the law of God right and has another God before him or takes the name of God in vain Under that framework then we can have civil penalties for them.

And the question right the original question of is that good for society is being an atheist is Rejecting the foundation of all of creation. Is that good for society?

The problem is that you're so stuck in your role of you. You really think that you have some objective reality about the moral universe that no one else has ever thought about or has ever Philosophized about.

There are legit Atheists who have legit things to say that could absolutely benefit society not even religiously speaking just in general as a human being. Maybe they're an engineer. Maybe they're electrician.

Maybe they love their family really well. So throwing I mean, let's just get real pragmatic for a second let's say you have an atheist in your society who has a family and has kids and they Break the moral law of God by I guess not Claiming Christ is Lord and they're thrown in prison and their kids grew up with a dad or a mom in prison.

Can you explain to me how that benefits society? I want real brass tacks reality. I don't want a theory or nonsense. I want this is the implication of what you're talking about. So how is that good for society for?

Essentially not have a family. I wouldn't throw an atheist in prison for quote not Professing Christ is Lord and I probably wouldn't throw an atheist in prison for even publicly Denouncing Christianity.

In fact, I'm a little hairy on the whole prison Punishment as a punishment period so That period I that wouldn't be an issue.

How about thrown atheist. And how about the gay man who has a family. Would you throw him in prison for being gay. I would.

Reject his. I would reject the claim that the gay man can't have a family. So I guess of this homosexuality great.

Let's get again brass tacks for just for sake of argument. Let's forget about what you believe. I understand that I grew up the same way. I get that in America as we speak right now. I personally know Several people who are married to a partner the same sex who have children and All those children have known are those two people as the parental figures in their life.

You get power tomorrow to do whatever you want as a Christian nationalist. Tell me what happens to that family unit. You don't have to accept it in your theology as a real family. But whatever you want to call it.

They are together and those kids look to those people as their guides and sustainers financially, etc. What happens to those two people and they're in those two kids. I.

Don't think that it is good for children to be in a household where That household is predicated on two men with disordered desires that have broken God's law that are daily committing adultery. There are plenty of examples of.

Of.

Homosexual families quote families that are they're not families. You're miss or you're not defining marriage properly. Those children would be taken out of that situation. That is an abusive situation.

By who by by the state. And where would they go? My. In a perfect Christian nationalist society, yeah, they would go to the church. And the church would find them new homes.

And you think that benefits them but put them away absolutely figures. Wow. Absolutely. That's unreal. It's unbelievable. I.

Would say we have just to interject here. I don't want to interject too much but a couple things that I just throw out there for thought too is Kent and I heard you talk about general equity, which is where I'm closer to you.

You know, if you look in Leviticus about a.

If.

Someone doesn't contain their ox and it bores a man. Well, then that man faces the death penalty. I would say the general equity of that law. It could be something like vehicular manslaughter or something like that.

To where if you have a tool at your disposal. Or you look to Alec Baldwin who accidentally shot someone he claims or doesn't claim whatever happens there. You have responsibility if you take a life you you could be held responsible with your life, even if it is Accidental.