Adult Sunday School - Going Public Part 8 (Chapter 8)

Prayer for Illumination and Edification

Which is good for building up in our most precious and holy faith. Pray, God, that you would, in your sovereignty, provide room in our hearts for the information. Lord, that this information would not just be for the puffing up of the mind, but, Lord, for the edification of the soul.

And, Lord, as we covenant together, as we come together in the name of Jesus, Lord, we recognize, again, our great need of you. And we pray, Lord, that in this moment you would grant us the gift of thy Spirit to do all these things and more for the glory of your name.

In Jesus' name, we do pray. Amen.

The Premise of Going Public: Baptism and Church Membership Are Required

Okay.

So we're in chapter 8 today of our book, you know, Going Public. And today is really a summary chapter of the things that we've already laid on. So, again, the premise of this book, the premise of this literature, the premise of this study, is to recognize, really, the importance of two major themes.

One is the purpose and significance of baptism, now also the purpose and significance of church membership, and how these two things are correlated and directly linked to one another. And the reason for this literature is because of the modern error of evangelicalism today, which I engaged in when I was an evangelical pastor of an evangelical church, a non-denominational church, which is essentially that church membership and baptism are optional for the Christian.

Okay. Now, as soon as a person says that, there's always a hand that comes up, and they say, are you saying that you need to be baptized in order to be saved and go to heaven? Well, that's not what I said.

That's not what I said. It's not the premise of this book. I think it's one of the first things that's kind of dispelled in this book, Going Public, is this notion that, well, here's what we're not saying.

Well, we are saying that baptism and membership are requirements of a Christian. Okay. We're not also saying that your eternal salvation hangs upon a particular work. Okay. So, can these two things be true at the same time?

Can something be required, but also not be contingent upon your eternal soul? And I'd say that's the hardest struggle here is to determine, what do we mean by required? And what we mean by required is, this is what the Lord requires for all those who want to walk in obedience.

Okay. Does a Christian need to be perfectly obedient in order to make it to heaven? No. No. Do you have to be, you know, 100 without sin? No. It's impossible, right? We cannot be perfect in our obedience.

Does it mean that we stop striving towards more obedience? Does it mean that we stop trying to be sanctified and draw to a closer image of Christ? By no means. So, we are called to obedience. It's like the Great Commission.

Is that required or is it optional? It's required. Anything the Lord commands is required. Okay. So, when you think of it from that mindset, from a biblical mindset, of what does it mean in regard to what does God require of me?

I want us to quickly examine a text of Scripture. I believe it's in Micah chapter 5. It might be Micah chapter 6. Let's find that. It's in the 12 Minor Prophets. Yeah, chapter 5 or 6. I'll let you know in a second once I find it.

Chapter 6 verse 8. And this is what the Lord God says. This is Micah chapter 6 verse 8. Micah 6 8 says, He has told you, O man, what is good? And what does the Lord require of you but to do justice and to love kindness and to walk humbly with your God?

Well, I love about this text. It's really a summation text. It's a text that summarizes God's heart and intention in terms of what He requires of His people. There's a lot of things that God could have said.

In the same way, when the question is asked of Jesus in the New Testament, Lord, what must I do to inherit eternal life? What does Jesus point to? He points to the law. That's right. He points to the Ten Commandments.

He could have said, Just believe in me and make sure that you're in my, that you put me in your heart and that, you know, you make me Lord and Savior. Hashtags, things Jesus never said. Okay. Jesus never said those things.

What does Jesus point to? He points to the requirements of the law. He summarizes it by saying, Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind and love your neighbor as yourself. And in these two things, what does Jesus say?

You fulfill the law and the prophets. Okay, and that's a summation text. That's Jesus summarizing the heart and intent of the law. Micah chapter 6 verse 8 is also a summation text where God is summarizing what it is that is required of us.

And it means that, just like when Jesus says that these two things fulfill the whole law and prophets, what he means by that is, if you love God, you'll be careful to honor his name. You'll be careful not to have other gods before him.

You'll be careful to make sure that you keep his name holy. If you love your neighbor, you won't covet, you won't steal, you won't murder. These are all things that are, that summarize God's heart and intention for us.

In the same way, Micah chapter 6 summarizes God's heart and intention of what is required of us. And it says, and he starts by saying, he's told you man, what is good. He told you what is good. So think about these things as to what is good and what is God's best.

Okay? So when we ask the question, why then is baptism? Why then is church membership a requirement? We have to have God's mind in this. We have to have the mind of Christ. And it's because it's good.

Okay.

When God says something is good, he's saying this is what is best. And he wants what's best for you. Okay, so you have to understand God's heart. He wants what's best for you. He knows what's best for you.

He's told you what is good and what the Lord requires of you, but to do justice. To love kindness and to walk humbly with your God. And humility often requires us to think of ourselves as lesser, or I would rather say, to think of ourselves in the right way.

Because Bible says that we all overestimate our own value. We think of ourselves higher than we ought to. Which is why the scripture says to consider others as being more worthy than you. And so God has told us what is a requirement.

And so in the New Testament, baptism is a covenant oath. It's a sign in which we are being brought in to the covenant community of Christ. And nowhere in the New Testament is baptism looked upon as optional.

If you were baptized, you were counted among the disciples. How do we know this? Let's go to Acts chapter 2 for a moment. Okay, so anyone remembers on the day of Pentecost, how many Christians were in the upper room?

120. What does the, how does the day end? 3 ,000. So notice what it says in Acts chapter 2, and let's look at verse 37. This is after Peter declares the gospel for the first time as New Testament, as a New Testament community of people.

He says, now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, brothers, what shall we do? So asking what is, what's the requirement? What do we need to do now?

So Peter answered them, verse 38, repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.

And so the clear apostolic message was.

Repent and.

Be baptized. So repent, believe, be baptized. This is the apostolic model. This is what you are to do, which is to mean, this is what's required. You want to be a Christian? Great! Repent, turn to Christ, believe in him, be baptized.

You see the natural progression?

Okay.

So then what happens next is very important, verse 41. So those who received his word.

Were.

Baptized.

Now this part is where you have church memberships. You have baptism. Now immediately after you have church membership, how do we know? And they were added that day about 3 ,000 souls. Added. This is a membership role.

Okay, so we have people believing, confessing, being baptized, now joining that community of faith. So the 120 turned to 3 ,000 by the end of the day.

Okay.

They were not counted among them until they were baptized. So they weren't, it wasn't anyone who, so here's how evangelicals do this. I was, I'm a, I come from an old-school Southern Baptist, you know, style of church life.

Here's what Southern Baptists love to do. We love doing crusades.

Okay.

We love doing campaigns and we filled pews, we filled tents. And then what we do is we ask people to raise their hand to believe in Jesus. Okay, they raise their hands and what do we do? We count them.

One, two, three, four. And then a report is sent out at the end of the service saying, 20 people today gave their lives to Jesus. That's not how the Old, the New Testament counts for disciples. It wasn't about raising a hand.

It wasn't about, you know, someone coming down the aisle. It was people who were baptized upon profession of faith in Jesus. That's who were counted and added among the disciples. Okay, is this pretty clear?

Any thoughts or questions so far?

Anyone? Okay.

And now notice what just, just to continue this text in Acts 2, verse 42 onward it says,. And they devoted themselves to the Apostles' teachings and the fell, and the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers.

So here you have the form, the formation of the church. Okay, so as they, as they were believed, repented, were baptized, what did they do immediately? They devote themselves to the Apostles' teachings, this is the Apostolic New Testament teaching of the, of the church, and the fellowship.

That's, that's the assembly. That's the church. And to the breaking of bread, that's communion. Okay? And to prayer. So you have the elements of worship here, regular principle of worship, as we adhere to here at SVRBC.

And it says,. And all came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were being done through the Apostles. And all who believed were together, and had all things in common. And they were selling their possessions, and belongings, and distributing the proceeds to all as any had need.

And day by day, attending the temple together, and breaking bread in their homes, they received their food of gladness and generous hearts, praising God, and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to their number, day by day, those who were being saved.

So you have now the success of this New Testament Church, as they were adhering to the Apostles' teachings, as they were now grafted into full church membership. So it's pretty clear from the onset of the New Testament Church, that the model is repent, believe, be baptized, and that is what grants you entrance into the new covenant community of faith.

Now, we learn in chapter 8, again, it's kind of a summation.

Chapter,.

We recognize that He gives seven reasons why baptism is required for church membership. Okay, so again, one of the premises that we're fighting against is this maybe easy believism, and easy church membership process, where, well, if you just want to be a member, well great, you're a member just by, you know, just by showing up.

You know, they give you the name of the cubby, and now you're part of the club. But no, what is required of us, and what's required of our faith is baptism, and the reason why is because baptism is where faith goes what?

It goes public, okay? Again, it is akin to the wedding ring, what I always like to say. Wedding ring is a public symbol that you are in covenant relationship with someone, that you are exclusive with someone.

The same is true of our baptism. We are in an exclusive relationship with Jesus Christ. Okay, so we we don't serve other gods. We don't serve other religions. We are exclusively a part of the community of faith of Jesus Christ, and baptism is that outward symbol, okay?

Now, the thing about baptism, and the thing about circumcision, because circumcision was the Old Testament equivalent, these were these were met as public signs, but were they actually public? People didn't go around checking if you were circumcised in the Old Testament.

Kind of weird. People wore loincloths, okay, to cover. It would be inappropriate for someone to be walking around in the nude, you know, like it's as if they were in the middle of San Francisco. You know, there were still some, you know, etiquette that had to be used, so circumcision, though essentially a public ordinance, because it was for all the males, was also private, because people didn't outwardly necessarily see this as a thing.

Same is true of baptism. You know, you go into the waters of baptism. You get wet. There's no physical mark on you that says, you know, like a wedding ring is a physical mark, because it everyone sees it.

Versus baptism, where the water comes on your body, and then it washes off, and how do people know? How do people know that you are a baptized Christian?

It's church membership.

Your church membership is that public sign as well, and so baptism is, again, it's the, it's the, it's where faith goes public. It is the initiating sign of the New Covenant, which is in page 162 of your books.

Baptism, again, just to go through what is written, baptism is also the initiating oath sign of the New Covenant. Though Jesus inaugurated the promised New Covenant, all covenants are ratified by an oath.

An oath is a solemn pledge,.

Promise,.

And you do that by virtue of baptism, because what happens upon your baptism? The preacher usually asks you a set of questions. Here's the questions that I ask when, and we're going to be doing a baptism fairly soon,.

And.

One of the things that we ask as preachers at a baptism is, so-and-so, have you confessed, have you repented of your sins and trusted in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior? And the answer should be a resounding yes, right?

And then the question is, is do you recognize that by means of your baptism you are now forsaking the world, sin, and Satan? So I'm paraphrasing what I usually say, but to that effect, and the answer is yes, and then so we say, okay, by means of your proclamation, by means of your public confession, we now baptize you in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit, and so that is a public declaration, and the person affirms it, and then they're baptized in the water, in the public waters of baptism.

Exactly, exactly, right? And so because it has to be, there has to be a public oath component to it, right? There needs to be some verbalization that, yes, I affirm this, yes, I believe, yes, I know what I'm getting myself into, okay?

I think I shared this story with you before, but when I was probably three or four, I have very few memories. One of the memories I have as a kid, we grew up Jehovah Witnesses, and so in the Kingdom Hall, there was a wedding that I was a part of.

I was one of the ring boys, and so I remember that day. I got dressed up in a tuxedo. I remember I had really shiny black shoes, and I was just cute as can be, and then I had to walk down the aisle of another girl, and her, and I knew her.

This is, this is her nickname, but this is how I knew her. Her name was Cookie, like cookie, but Cookie, and and she was dressed in a wedding gown, and I'm like, wait a second, am I getting married? And I remember having to walk down the aisle, and this is, someone recorded this in the old 90s camcorder, and I remember literally halfway down the aisle, and I literally just jet run and run to my parents, because I was like, I don't want to get married right now.

I don't want to get married, and you know, a lot of folks sometimes, you know, as they're contemplating marriage, don't think about this, but what you're doing in marriage, when you go to that, to that pulpit, when you go to the front of that congregation, or group, or friends, or family, what you're saying is you're, is you're making an oath in front of a community of people, right, and that's exactly what baptism is.

You are, you are, you are standing before witnesses, and you are pledging an oath, okay? So baptism is the initial sign oath of the new covenant, just like in the old covenant, it was circumcision, new covenant, it's baptism, and that is, you know, essentially.

The,.

The sign that you are a Christian, and that ongoing sign is your church membership, okay? And so does this make sense? Is this computing? Any questions so far? One of the things that we've gone over in this book as well, you'll see in page 163, is that baptism is the passport of the kingdom, and the kingdom citizen's swearing-in ceremony.

What is meant by the kingdom passport concept that, that is brought up in this book? What is meant by that?

Is it good? That's right.

Anything else? What is, what is, what does a passport grant you? That's right, I like that word, access. Grants you certain accesses and privileges that you would not have otherwise if you don't have that passport.

Now, does every citizen of a given country have a passport? No. How many of you have passports? Raise your hand. I should only raise my hand partially because mine is like literally going to expire in like two weeks, so I have to renew that.

If not, I can't leave the country. I don't plan on leaving the country anytime soon, but, you know, it would be nice maybe to take a trip to Mexico. If you don't have a passport, that doesn't mean you're not a citizen, right?

You're still a citizen, but you're not going to be granted certain privileges of travel if you don't have that passport. In the same way, church baptism and church membership act as a passport because it says, it speaks of who you're representing, okay?

So I'm very skeptical, and I've met in my ten years of ministry, I've met a lot of folks who are passportless Christians, okay? Well, here's what a passportless Christian looks like. Passportless Christian is someone who says, I love Jesus, but I hate the church, okay?

They say, I love Jesus,.

But.

Church for me is just me in my living room listening to Hillsong, okay? Church for me is just being out in nature, taking a walk. That's church for me. I don't need a church in order to serve Jesus, okay?

That's like saying, I don't need food in order to survive. You know, it doesn't make any sense. It doesn't compute. There's no sense to it, because if you love Jesus, how could you possibly hate His bride?

How can you possibly hate His body, of which you are supposedly a member of? Because if you're in Christ, you are a member of the body of Christ. You are a member of His body. So you're gonna say that you hate the body that you're supposedly a part of?

It makes no sense. A passportless Christian is someone who relentlessly criticizes the church, but offers no solutions, okay? And these are Christians who I've met some really great passportless Christians as well who really genuinely love the Lord, who know their Bibles pretty well, and some of their frustration is they just don't see a church that's doing it right, okay?

I totally get that frustration. I totally get that. But to them, in my experience, these are folks who tend to be critical, and even if a church was doing it right, they likely wouldn't commit to it. These are people who often have commitment issues, and no lie, as soon as I say these things, I think of a couple that I had in our previous church in Wisconsin who were really great folks, who genuinely loved Jesus, but they couldn't commit to a church, because they could always point out a hundred reasons why.

And yet, their personal lives were a mess, their marriage was a mess, their finances were a mess, everything was just a mess. Because these are things that are reflective, not just of our spiritual state, but of our life.

If you have commitment issues, if you've got issues of covenanting together with a community, then that's going to follow you in many other aspects of your life. So with this particular couple, you know, my admonition to them was like, just.

Just commit.

Yeah, let your yes be yes, your no be no. Church is not gonna be perfect, pastor's not gonna be perfect, you're not gonna be perfect. As long as we all understand that, we'll probably be okay.

Okay?

But they never got there, they never got there. And so unfortunately, pastoralist Christians are those who, again, tend to be critical of the church, but offer no solutions. And these are folks who don't have a firm grasp of the theology of church membership.

The theology of church membership in relation to things like Matthew 16, Matthew 18, it's our conviction here in our church, and this is what's usually called a Baptist distinctive. A Baptist distinctive in our circle is our form of church government.

What is our form of church government? Do we have a Pope?

No.

Do we, are we ruled totally by elders?

No.

Our form of government would be then congregational. Okay, so you have different levels of, you'll have a lot of different forms of church government, but the two main one are kind of what's called papal, and so that's the, that's having like a Pope, or Archbishop, or something to that degree who rules over the church.

So you have a particular office that rules over the church. Then you have kind of what the Presbyterian, so the word, anyone know what the word Presbyterian means? Okay, so we get the, the word Presbyterian comes from the Greek word for elder, presbyter, and it means essentially elder-ruled, so it means that the elders kind of run the church, the congregation, and then you have what's again a Baptist distinctive, and that is Congregationalism.

Congregationalism is a Puritan, Baptist distinctive, and that means that the congregation collectively exercises authority. It's not just one person, one office, it is a collective authority. These keys of the kingdom are for all of God's people to share collectively, right?

So this is a, this is a New Testament theology of ecclesiology. Ecclesiology just means, fancy word for the purpose, or theology, or teaching of the church, of what it means to be a church. Yeah, yeah, this is a puritanical and also a Baptist.

Distinctive.

And so, because again, think about church history for a moment, you know, even during the Protestant Reformation, Protestants, if you look at some of the denominations that come out of, you know, Anglicanism, Lutheranism, you know, you, you have elders, pastors, bishops, archbishops, you know, these, this kind of high ecclesiology that is kind of a vestige of the papal system, right?

And, you know, the Puritans were the first ones to be like, no, we understand the Bible to be teaching, that this is a, the keys of the kingdom are something that we collectively hold. It's not just one office or person.

And so, this is why, you know, democracy flows out of a Puritan tradition, okay? So, in Western American history, it's when you have the Puritans coming over to the new world that you begin to see the formation of democracy.

For instance, I grew up in the state of Connecticut. Connecticut, if you've ever seen a Connecticut license plate, it says the Constitution State. The reason why Connecticut has the motto being the Constitution State is because it is the first state or territory that adopted a Constitution.

And when you look at the original Constitution, it's called the First Orders of Connecticut. This is the first Constitution in the United States. It was based upon a biblical worldview and the first opening words of the First Orders of Connecticut was that this document, this Constitution, is based upon the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ.

So, they understood that a congregational, almost, I hate to use this term because it's so convoluted today, but democratic system was the biblical system and they wanted to ingrain that also in our civil system.

So, we had the religious system that was ruled, that was congregational-led. That was not congregational-led, but it's congregational because it is, you know, it's the collective power authority of the people.

And then they wanted to see that, but it's also still under the leadership of elders. So, it's still elder-led, not elder-ruled. In a similar system today, we're in what's supposed to be our Republic today, is we're supposed to have a similar system where we're led, not ruled, by our leaders, right?

So, our elected officials are called civil servants because they're to serve us, not us serving them. Now, it's been kind of changed in practice a little bit over time, become convoluted, but you see how this early understanding of congregationalism really is what led to modern democracy today, for better or for worse.

But it is this biblical theology surrounding the concept of the keys of the kingdom, how to identify a citizen, how to identify a Christian. This was brought into the civil world.

Through.

Baptist and Puritan understanding of the keys of the kingdom and church membership. Does that make sense?

And so, yes. Well, they would say yes.

Yeah, so a lot of, I've noticed a lot of evangelical churches are heading towards the Presbyterian model as well, in that a lot of evangelical churches are no longer congregational.

So,.

If you look at like Matt Chandler's church, Acts 29, all these really trendy evangelical churches, they're more elder-ruled now. They will call themselves elder-led, and they may be congregational to a degree like where they might vote on budget issues and things like that, but beyond that, there really isn't much voting.

And so, a lot of churches today are adopting an elder-ruled, you know, Presbyterian model essentially. And their argument for it is that the Bible says that obviously churches need to have elders. Scripture says obey your leaders in the Lord.

Scripture says that elders are essentially, you know, the leaders. So, you know, why would we be led by the congregational, the congregation, when the church is supposed to be subject to its leaders? And of course, there's some validity to that, but that's harmonized perfectly within a congregational model because, for instance, in our church, you recognize when we have our church meetings, you know, it's who's leading the meeting?

The pastors, the elders are leading the meetings, and we usually try to lead also through consensus. So, you know, if we have something that we have a deep conviction about, we're going to teach you on it.

We're going to try to persuade you, not just because we think our position is best, but because we have a sincere desire to adhere to the Scriptures. And so, we try to minister to you in that, and the church elders will make a recommendation as to how we think a church vote should go.

And so, we've seen that recently in the life of our church where we say, here's our recommendation. Here's why we believe this to be the right case, and it's our hope that the congregation affirms that, and they affirm it through the voting process.

And that's still elder-led because we're leading, and we're persuading you. But as I'm always reminded what the Apostle Paul says in 2 Corinthians chapter 1, that we are not masters over your faith, but we are fellow workers for your joy.

And so, it's a servant leadership position as a pastor, and helping persuade the people of God to think more biblically about things. And so, unfortunately, many evangelical churches and Presbyterian churches have a different view of church government, which is not to say that these church structures are completely devoid of voting.

There are Presbyterian churches that vote on issues, but they're far from congregational in the biblical sense. Any other thoughts or questions? So, that's where an area again where, you know, within Protestantism, you have a divergence between Protestant denominations that hold to vestiges of the old papal system, right?

And the papal system is one that's marked with unbiblical practices like, you know, in papal baptism, high church ecclesiology, which is to say it has a high governance that looms over the church. So, you'll have, you know, pastors who are way too powerful.

You'll have bishops, archbishops, and maybe some papal, you know, person or leader. These are all vestiges of Rome. And so, when you look at within Protestantism, those who have the least vestiges of Rome would be Puritans, would be Baptists.

And so, Reformed Baptists in that, to be clear. Again, so these are Baptist distinctives, and these are obviously things that come from the Scriptures. Any questions so far? I like questions. Questions are good.

Why Baptism Is Required for Church Membership

Okay.

What else is referred to as a reason that baptism is required for church membership? What are some of the other arguments that have come forward in this book so far? So, we see that baptism is where faith goes public.

Baptism is a sign, initiating sign, oath sign of the new covenant. Baptism is the passport of the kingdom and the kingdom citizens swearing in ceremony. What are some other arguments that are presented in this book.

That demonstrate that we, you know, the importance of baptism and church membership? Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, part's part of it. And that's a great point, you know. So, we understand that baptism is a sign that you are part of the church.

And.

Paedo-Baptists, you know, include children.

Now,.

Here's a, I don't know the answer to this, but a question I'd love to see is, do they actually keep them on the membership rolls? So, if a baby's baptized, are they now members? And this is one of the reasons why Paedo-Baptists tend to be elder-ruled, is because, again, in a congregational system, then that baby would get to vote, right?

Because they'd have the authority to exercise the keys of the kingdom. Because we're, if we baptize them, we're formally recognizing them as a Christian. But this is why Paedo-Baptism is linked close, linkedly, linked closely to a elder-ruled model where congregationalism isn't the the rule of the church.

Yeah, that's, yeah, that's right. So, the assumption is that, is that because, so like, for instance, Roman Catholics, they, you've heard of the term godparents, right? And so, the purpose of a godparent, theologically, is that this person now will serve as an instrument to help rear this child in the ways of the faith, so they would not depart from it.

So, you have the natural parents, they're gonna raise up this child, both physically, spiritually, mentally, but now they also have the assistance of these godparents who are going to instill these Christian principles, teachings, morals, so they don't also depart from it.

But, man, that's not the practice. I mean, if you know Roman Catholics and people who have, you know, do those godparent things, I have seen some of the most ghetto people in the world be godparents. I'm like, wow, are you a godparent?

Like, you don't even, you know, you smoke weed and you don't even go to church. You're a godparent. It's just, it's a bizarro world. Though the intention is kind of interesting and nice, yeah, it's just not a biblical, you know, thing.

I mean, that's why it's a community of the church that needs to come alongside families, children, and not just assign some, you know, godparent of some sort. You know, I had a weird thing over Christmas.

My cousin, who moved to Charlotte recently, his girlfriend, he grew up Jehovah Witness. His fiancée is Roman Catholic, and they're having a baby, and they want to baptize the baby in Roman Catholicism.

And they know I'm a pastor, and then they asked me, could you baptize the baby? And I'm like, no. I said, I'd love to baptize him, maybe when he's older and he believes in Jesus. I said, that's when I'll baptize him.

But even a lot of Roman Catholics don't have a really firm understanding. I'm like, I'm pretty sure a priest has to do this. Yeah, a priest, you need to like be a part of a church here. You need to, you know, seek out a priest if that's what you want to do.

Yeah, you wouldn't, I said, you wouldn't want me to baptize your baby in the first place. Like, it's not something you would actually want. So a lot of it is just very cultural, very cultural. It's not, you know, there's not a firm basis in scripture or theology for it, so.

Any other thoughts or questions? So, that's a good point. Any other points that were brought up in regard to reasons why baptism is required for church membership that you maybe found personally persuasive or maybe you had questions about?

Say again? Well, that's why those churches have other ordinances such as.

Confirmation. Yeah. Yeah, so within Lutheranism, within Catholicism, within Presbyterianism, you have some form of confirmation. So, confirmation is simply a process that maybe a young person would go through who was baptized as an infant, and they'll go through this process of, like, usually going through some catechism and and then having, you know, questions and answers, similar to what we do here on Sunday morning.

You know, we, on Sunday, we have, of course, teaching from the catechism. And once they go through that process, and the priest or the elder is satisfied in their,.