Open Phones Witnessing to Mormons & Presuppositions

Around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona, this is the

Dividing Line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us, yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence.

Our host is Dr. James White, Director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church.

This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with Dr. White, call now at 602 -973 -4602 or toll free across the

United States. It's 1 -877 -753 -3341. And now with today's topic, here is

James White. And good morning and welcome to the Dividing Line. I was thinking just a moment ago,

I guess I could just sort of sit here and as I write this chapter, I could sort of mumble out the words as I'm writing them and then you could say that you were there when something you eventually saw in print was being written.

But then I thought, you know what, that's probably not the most scintillating kind of webcasting you could possibly do.

I was actually sitting here typing away. I must finish this chapter. I almost have to bolt and lock the door and just say, okay, you cannot leave until it's done because when you have a bunch of stuff you're doing all at the same time and you have deadlines and one goes late, it pushes everything else backwards.

And so that's a problem, especially when you have firm deadlines.

And that's not, you know, sometimes you can talk your publisher into, you know, give me another day or two, which I've already had to do on this chapter.

But when I'm talking about deadlines, I've got deadlines at the end of this month, actually April 4th and 5th in Salt Lake City called debates that you need to prepare for, that you need to study for, that you want to do reading on, etc.,

etc., etc. And if you're writing other things, it just doesn't work. So all right, I'm not going to make you sit here while I, if any of you are wondering,

I'm writing a chapter on church governance, on church rule by elders, plurality of elders.

That's the perspective that I present. And that's specifically is a, you might call it the independent view.

That is that the local church with its elders and deacons is

God's intended design, obviously as a Reformed Baptist, I don't believe in a hierarchical structure above the elders of the local church.

I argue that from a biblical perspective, of course, I believe that the elders and deacons are

God's gift to his church in giving that local body the ability to function as God has intended for it to function, that you would find within that fellowship everything that the church needs to function that way.

And over again, this is for a Broadman -Holman book that will be coming out, I'm not sure when, but I think it's a five views, you've heard of the four views book, this is a five views book,

I think it's at least a five views book, with other perspectives. For example, Dr.

Robert Raymond has written the Presbyterian perspective, there's an Episcopal perspective, there's a single pastor perspective, and I think there's one other and I honestly don't even know what it is, which is probably not wise.

But anyways, that's what I'm working on and I have just been really, really, really, really, really distracted and when you're distracted, when you're focused on a topic, you can write,

I can write very quickly. I wrote the King James only controversy in four months. But back then,

I wasn't traveling all over the place and didn't have all the other stuff going on and I could just sort of close the door of the office and boom, you did stuff.

But we are so connected with folks and we get addicted to the connection, actually,

I think, over time. But anyhow, that's what we're up to today.

By the way, we have our brand new, awesome, super duper, it's got cool lights on it and it looks exactly like the unit that we had when we were at the radio station phone system in and those who are in charge say that they are ready to rock and roll, that there's absolutely nothing that could possibly go wrong.

Actually, you know, beforehand, we were talking about chewing gum and bailing wire and right before the program, someone over there said, hey, what's this wire go to?

It looks important and it just really makes you feel very, very confident as to how things are going to go.

So, the possibilities are that when you call 877 -753 -3341, 877 -753 -3341, there's a slight possibility that when we go, let's talk to Don in Los Angeles or whatever, all of a sudden you're going to hear a, and I will, you'll hear me groveling on the floor, having been permanently rendered deaf by the explosion in my headphones and that'll be the end, that'll be it.

So, that is a possibility, but we are on the bleeding edge of webcasting here. And so, we do invite your participation at 877 -753 -3341.

Webcasting around the world with bailing wire, chewing gum, and anything else I can get my hands on. Turn that man's microphone off, he's messing me up here.

Oh, gracious. Anyways, hey, in fact, someone has already, unlike anyone in our chat channel, which is normally populated by chickens, oh, wait a minute,

I need to do something here. Sound off, oh, that's, got to spell off correctly.

There, oh, good. I keep forgetting to turn that off and I just knew someone like Balthazar would come in and play some goofy wave file right in the middle of everything and mess everything up.

Actually, he's supposedly still sleeping, according to his nick there, and he lives in Australia, so it's okay to be sleeping at this time of day when you live in Australia.

But, anyways, someone actually has already called, in fact, in fact, this should make everyone, see,

Marky22 played the chicken wave, I knew it was coming, and I managed to turn it off before it messed everything up.

This should really make all of you Americans feel badly, but a Canadian has called first today, and a

Canadian has called first to use the brand new phone system, and I think it's an honor to be the first one to use a brand new phone system.

Of course, the result could be that he, likewise, will be deafened by the horrific sound that could sometimes usher from these really cool phone systems.

But, let's go ahead before I ramble on too much more and go ahead and talk with Rick in Calgary, Alberta about, well, a number of things.

I just love when the call screeners give you such real specific things. But, anyways, Rick? Hey, you can hear me?

Perfectly. And I can hear you real well, too. Well, excellent. And my headphones didn't melt or anything.

Don't you just love technology? When it works. When it doesn't, it leaves us all sitting here wondering what we're going to do.

Before I forget, when we're done with our conversation, can you patch me back through to one of your helpers?

I'd like to get on your chat channel. I'm kind of a simple country boy, and I can't navigate my way on.

Well, I can tell you what. There's only one quote -unquote helper over there, and something tells me that unless everything goes dead after we're done talking, he'll probably say, well, there's directions on the...

Have you seen it on the website, the directions? Yeah, but I'm a simple country boy. They don't work for me. Yeah, I figured it'd be kind of neat to get on, and being a

Lutheran, then you Calvinists could beat me up over it. Oh, well, you know what? We probably would. Over my anti -Chalcedonian ubiquitism, my baptismal regeneration, and my self -contradictory view of divine election.

There you go. You definitely fit in perfectly there. Someone in channel just said, tell him to come in channel.

We can give him instructions. Yeah. And that man happens to have started his career as a help desk person, so he mentioned that earlier today, so I really appreciate the help that he has provided to you.

Anyways, what... Well, I have a suggestion for a debate.

Ah, okay. Resolved. God is neither a cosmic rapist or a cosmic puppeteer.

He is based on sound biblical exegesis. Well, the affirmative would be Hank the Answer Guy, or the negative would be you.

What do you think? Well, you know, it's funny. There is... I can't give any specifics, because I haven't heard any for a long, long, long, long time, but, you know, that call, that discussion, takes place regularly on the

Bible Answer Man broadcast, and so there is a great desire on the part of Hank and those in charge to have at least a

Bible Answer Man broadcast of a couple days' length on the subject of the will of man and the sovereignty of God, and they have been trying now at least...

Let's see, when did I get my first phone call? I got my first phone call at the beginning of April last year, and let's just say things are ongoing and hopeful for the next maybe 90 days?

Yeah. Possibility of that type of thing taking place. But yeah, you know, Hank's been using the term libertarian free will of late.

He included that, I guess, in one of his books on resurrection. So, yeah, we definitely take a different perspective on that.

The nice thing is, it seems that he would like to have a conversation about that on the

Bible Answer Man broadcast. Excellent. Well, you know, I mean, he just goes to show what your old man

Charles Haddon Spurgeon said. Inside the heart of every human being beats a pure Pelagian heretic.

I'll tell you, I would trade almost anything to have the ability to communicate and to be a wordsmith and have the command of language that Charles Haddon Spurgeon had.

Wouldn't it be wonderful? I tell you. The other thing, I'd like to relate my own personal experiences here.

I like to go around to the churches here in Calgary and watch people make strange fire unto the

Lord, you know. And I went to this humongous castle.

Well, by Canadian standards, it's humongous. There was about 1 ,500 people in this place, right? You had to go down to Texas somewhere.

Yeah, well, anyway, this guy's up on the stage and he's wandering back and forth with his mic on his... and he's yelling and he's screaming and people are shouting hallelujah and praise the

Lord and so on. And at one point he said, and if you believe that Jesus Christ is your Savior, you are halfway there.

Halfway there? Yeah. And so I stood. I just stood up, right? And he's walking back and forth and yelling and screaming and carrying on and he sees me out of the corner of his eyes.

He's walking back and forth and eventually he stops, right? And he says to me, he said, do you have a question?

And I said, no, I don't have a question. I do have a comment, though. I said, you, sir. I said, well, actually what

I said was the Lord rebuked you and I oppose and refute you. You, sir, are a ferocious wolf among the sheep.

And I walked out and 18 people left with me. Now that's the best day's work the

Holy Spirit ever did through me. Well, I didn't know they allowed things like that in Canada.

In fact, I didn't even know Canadians did things like that because I've just always sort of assumed it's so cold there that you all just move very slowly and that's why you all don't really, you know, get excited about too many things.

Except for hockey. Would you consider that proselytizing on my part?

Well, almost. I mean, that sounds a little bit like what

I did many, many moons ago when I was but a pup. My wife and I, when

I first started studying Mormonism, we went to the local war chapel.

We found the closest place and so I went to the local war chapel. This was 19, oh goodness, this would have been about 1983,

I believe. Coming up on, I think, you know what? I think it was last weekend was the 20th anniversary of this.

My goodness, I hadn't even thought about it. But anyways, we went on the first Sunday. I didn't know a lot about it at the time and if you're familiar with Mormonism, the first Sunday of the month is

Fasting and Testimony Sunday. And so we're sitting there and they get up and they say, if anyone would like to give a testimony, now's the time to do so.

And then they sat down. And I remember thinking very specifically to myself, they said, if anyone.

They didn't say, if any Mormon. They said, if anyone. And so my mind starts going and my wife's looking at me very, very nervously.

And I did not get up that day but what I did is I observed, I saw how long it went, how they handled it.

And the next, this will be coming up the first weekend, I believe, in April.

Oh no, or was it May? Is it a March or? Well, anyways. The next month, we showed up again.

This time there were a few other people with us. And when they said, if anyone has a testimony to give, I wasn't the first one up there.

I waited until a few people had done their things and then I got up. And unfortunately, right as I got up, somebody else got up and they got there before me.

So I had to sit down next to the bishop. While the other guy was talking. And then

I got up there and if you've ever been to an LDS meeting, they don't have a nursery.

And Mormons tend to have lots of kids. And so it tends to be, even when nothing's going on, it tends to be fairly noisy and lots of folks moving around and stuff like that.

And so I got up there and I said, I appreciate this opportunity to give my testimony.

Especially since I'm not a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

And man, what was really freaky about it was, I expected, and it really didn't shock me, that the adults all were staring at me and everything became quiet.

But if the little kids were staring at me, that was the weird part. I mean, the place, you could hear a pin drop.

And so I started talking about justification. And after I'd memorized about, I don't know, a dozen scriptures that I wanted to share with them.

After about five or six of them, this thing flew over my shoulder and landed on the, what we'd call a pulpit.

And I opened, it was a bulletin that had been folded up, and I opened it up and it said,

Brother White, our time is up. Now I knew what time it was and I knew that the month before they had gone a lot longer.

So I knew this was just a way of getting me to shut up and get out of the way. And so I did and I went and sat down and man, the line formed on the left.

I mean, every missionary, every former missionary in that place got up to give their testimony.

And of course they gave their testimony directly at me. I mean, you know, they're all just focused in right on me.

And as soon as the last note of the organ played or the last song they sang, the first counselor to the bishop was right at the end of our row with his hand out saying, the bishop would like to speak with you.

So we got to go into the bishop's office and talk with Brother Bruce Balls was his name.

Bishop Balls was his name. And we talked about, that's what

I learned in that conversation, that not all men had sinned. He informed me he had heard the prophet speak of perfect men and in fact he was offended that I would talk about the fact that all men were sinners because they were perfect men.

So that's when I learned you have to actually memorize all the passages in Scripture and talk about the universal sinfulness of man to talk to Mormons too.

So anyway, that's a little bit like what we did at that particular point in time many, many moons ago.

Well, I just couldn't handle it. Well, what was he saying the other half involved?

Well, I didn't stick around long enough to find out because I walked out. But I mean, it would have had a lot to do with works and this and that.

I see. I mean, you take it right out of the

Methodist Minutes as a handbook. It's crazy. Okay, so All Points Bulletin to all churches in Calgary, Alberta.

Watch out for Rick. Can I get your email address? I'd like to send you something that I hand out in front of these places like you used to hand out in front of the temple.

Well, there's a contact link on the website. And if you want to drop us an email and then that goes to certain people who then pass it on to me.

If I gave you my email address, my email volume would triple right now.

So just mail at aomin .org. We'll get it into the system and then it'll get to me that way. mail .aomin

.org Okay? Alrighty. Don't run off on it.

Can I go back and have those guys Oh, okay. It's a new system, so hopefully it has the really fancy capacity of talking to you again.

Cool. 877 -753 -3341 877 -753 -3341 877 -753 -3341

We actually do. Hey, Yahoo! We have other callers. Here we go. Let's talk to Greg up there in,

I'm assuming this is Michigan? Livonia, Michigan. It's probably a little bit cooler there than it is here.

We're actually north of some parts of Canada. You cross over the bridge here from Detroit to Windsor and you can head south actually into Canada.

Pretty far north. What's the temperature up there today? It's about 30, which is actually pretty warm.

That's not bad. It's only about 60 here. What can we do for you today? I'm a newer listener and I just wanted to call and say

I appreciate your ministry. It's been very helpful to me and I've listened to a lot of your tapes, real audio tapes, and I just wanted to comment.

I listened to you on a radio show with Van Hale many years ago discussing predestination and then recently

I listened to you when you were on the Marty Minow show with Dave Hunt. The similarities of the two conversations were really amazing to me because you would discuss the passages in Romans 9 and I remember you said to Van Hale or you asked him, you said how are your objections not what

Paul was saying in Romans 9 20. It just made me realize that a lot of those conversations were very similar and they had the same objections, but what amazed me is that you would show them all the verses in the

Bible that would show God's sovereign choice and both of them kind of had the same reaction. They would kind of ignore those verses and move on and they would make a comment to the effect that in their opinion the great preponderance of verses or teachings in the

Bible did not teach that. I just wanted to get your comment on that. The psychology of that.

It's funny. I remember back to the program with Van Hale and for people who aren't familiar with these discussions,

Van Hale is a Mormon. He's a little bit of an unusual

Mormon. I don't know that he would even disagree with that in the sense that he uses today's

English version and he's a Mormon apologist of types, but he takes somewhat of a liberal perspective on a number of issues that most

Mormons would not. We had this little conversation actually it wasn't overly little, it was a couple hours long and we just discussed the subject of predestination election which he found fascinating.

Of course he doesn't believe in inerrancy and so the whole idea seems very strange to him and you may recall one of the things that he stated that I thought

I gave him credit for, was he said in essence, if I started with your presuppositions regarding the inerrancy of Scripture, the ideas that you have there, then what you believe would make sense.

I just don't start where you start. I found that a very, very interesting statement on his part and he did basically say, yeah

I am making the objections that Paul deals with here.

I understand where you're coming from, it's logical, etc. etc. I just cannot possibly believe that God would be that way or would create that way etc.

etc. And it's the same thing that Dave Hunt would say. You know, it is fundamentally the conclusions are the same.

Dave would not of course say what Van said in regards to rejecting inerrancy but he would come down to the exact same conclusion and use many of the very same arguments.

I've tried to point that out and when I do point that out to Dave, that is considered either to be ad hominem argumentation.

And many people will view it that way on almost any discussion day. If you demonstrate that an argument that is being used utilizes the same fundamental presuppositions as an argument that both of you would consider heretical, many times a person will consider that simply to be an attack against them personally, even if you have simply presented it as an inconsistency in their own position.

There's not a whole lot of good training in real argumentation logic these days. But Dave especially

I think approaches the issue in a considerably more emotional way than Van Hale does.

Van is coming from a completely different perspective on the nature of God, on the authority of Scripture, things like that.

He thinks that if there is such a thing as irresistible grace he seems to imply that it's owed to everybody.

When you say he there, I'd have to go which one? Because they both in essence said that.

Certainly that is the case for Dave. The concept of irresistible grace is not only to him something to be rejected vociferously but the same thing is true with Norman Geisler.

That is one of the issues for him that likewise created this very, very strong emotional response.

I honestly don't believe Norm can discuss the concept of irresistible grace without throwing in some very strong terms like divine rape and things like that, dehumanizing us and things like that because he is very, very emotionally involved with it as Dave is as well.

They base their whole defense primarily on what you call the Big Three. Yes, of course.

Matthew 22, 37, 1 Timothy 2, 4, 2 Peter 3, 9 and none of them to my knowledge has ever produced a meaningful exegesis of any of those texts.

They are simply cited as if the meaning is self -evident and could not possibly be questioned by anyone and I have tried

Lord knows I have tried to get each one of these individuals to interact on an exegetical level but as in other things in my life just this past week in fact getting folks who claim to be

Christians and who claim to teach the word of God to interact with you on an exegetical level merely to honor the word of God as the word of God as the final court of authority is far more often impossible than it is possible these days unfortunately.

You very quickly when you ask to go into the text discover that many times you are stepping on someone's tradition and when their tradition is challenged on a

Biblical basis most folks will respond with some sort of an emotional response as you saw both with Dave and what you see with Norm Geisler and to a different extent

Van Hale as well I mean his tradition obviously isn't just simply an unspoken extra Biblical tradition it's an entire religion tradition in the sense of the

LDS scriptures and the teachings of the prophets of the Mormon church and things like that So the book you're doing with Dave Hunt will be a continuation of that discussion?

Wow, how do I even describe it? I have said to many many people that the book that I'm doing with Dave Hunt which is as soon as I finish this chapter that's the next thing

I have to get into and have to get stuff done with really literally the next couple of days the book that I'm doing with Dave Hunt I guess since I've told the publisher this

I can tell you this as well it's value is going to be based in my opinion upon the contrasting styles of presentations in other words the best

I can do given the format of the entire presentation is try to differentiate myself primarily by the means that I use to respond to Mr.

Hunt the reason being my belief was that this book was supposed to be

I present seven positive statements which I did presenting my perspective

Mr. Hunt presented seven negative statements rather than positive statements he did not choose to actually define his own faith in a positive way just simply to attack

Calvinism and then the problem is my understanding was each one of these presentations was to be focused on one topic so that the reader would be able to follow a dialogue a back and forth dialogue on one particular topic that each one of us chose seven of the fourteen topics that would be addressed

Dave does not stick to one topic in a presentation he wanders all over the place I then have to try to respond to his presentation in far fewer words and you can imagine what it's like to try to present a cogent understandable response to a presentation it's all over the road that well good example

I don't know if you've heard it and I if someone maybe Mark Ennison channel could pull up the

URL for us or something like that Dr. Piper from Greenville Presbyterian Seminary debated

Dave Hunt and the topic this is May 4th or 5th of last year the topic was supposed to be the atonement limited atonement is the atonement of Christ specifically for the elect or is it for every single individual human who's ever lived or will live etc etc

Dr. Piper had a 20 minute opening statement he presented a very clear presentation and it was focused it was all on the intention of the atonement and the effect of the atonement and I honestly don't think there's anything that he said that I wouldn't have said in pretty much the exact same way

Dave Hunt got up blasted all five points of Calvinism and a few that Calvinists had never thought of before he never stuck to the subject he never focused in upon what

Dr. Piper said he didn't respond to what Dr. Piper said the same thing is going on in this book and the result of course then is

I'll present a chapter on John 6 for example and his response is literally all over the planet he'll respond to you know all sorts of things and the result is

I really think that the reader is going to have a hard time following what it is we're trying to talk about because it ends up going all over the place so I'm just hoping that the differences in the presentation at least my presentations will be clear enough to communicate something otherwise

I think it's going to be very confusing to a lot of folks unfortunately I just have to be honest I've told the publisher that and unfortunately

Mr. Hunt has no interest in allowing an outside editor to have a word to say concerning whether he has or has not stuck to the subject and so I've just said okay fine well

I'll do what I can do and that's all there is to it. Well thanks for taking my call

I just want to say your new schedule works better for me. Alright well thanks. I'm always out cutting the lawn Saturday afternoon and I end up missing the

Saturday show Alrighty well we appreciate that information and thanks for calling today. Thank you Alright God bless

Greg. 877 753 33 41 We need to take a quick break and when we come back we'll be talking with Martin in England.

And yes I am going to do my British accent again. But don't use that as an excuse to leave.

Stay there we'll be right back. Charlie Good in Whitehall Answering those who claim that only the

King James Version is the word of God James White in his book The King James Only Controversy examines allegations that modern translators conspired to corrupt scripture and lead believers away from true

Christian faith. In a readable and responsible style author James White traces the development of Bible translations old and new and investigates the differences between new versions and the authorized version of 1611.

You can order your copy of James White's book The King James Only Controversy by going to our website at www .aomin

.org www .aomin .org www .aomin .org www .aomin .org

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If you're unable to attend, you can still participate with your computer and real audio at prbc .org,

where the ministry extends around the world through the archives of sermons and Bible study lessons available 24 hours a day.

It's the dividing line. It's Tuesday morning. Someday I'll get used to this and when I wake up on Tuesday mornings,

I'll remember we're doing this. I always come wandering into the office, you know, you sit down, start looking at what's come in, the email, are there any real bad things you need to deal with immediately, you know, put some fires out, so on and so forth, and your mind's all foggy, and then all of a sudden you go, oh, yeah, we've got to do something this morning.

Hey, what are we going to do? I totally forgot about it. Anyways, 877 -753 -3341 is the phone number for you to call, and that is the number that Martin called, and Martin is in the

United Kingdom, and I must tell you, Martin, that one of your citizens recently, a friend of mine named

John Sampson, raised his hand in a court of law here in the

United States and renounced all fealty to foreign potentates, and he's now an

American citizen. Oh, goodness. So I just wanted you to know that the colonies are still growing.

Well, they seem to be, yes. Sorry there,

Martin. I know you say that I actually sound like an Aussie. Well, you do sometimes,

James, yes. But right now, am I managing to slur things properly enough to make it in England?

I think you could pass. Okay, yes, sir, Martin. You know,

Martin, have you ever seen, I think it was a Disney film called The Parent Trap? It's about the twins that meet at a camp and discover that they're long -separated twins, and they try to get their parents back together again, and one lives in England.

Yes, I think so, yes. And Martin is the butler in England, in London.

And so every time I hear Martin, I hear it as they said, Oh, Martin! I hate to say that.

But anyways, what can we do for you today? I was just ringing quickly to find out,

Matthew 27, 46, where Jesus says, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

In most churches, a lot of churches you'll hear, that's where God the Father has turned away from and turned his back on God the

Son. And I've heard that you've spoken about that, that there wasn't a separation within the

Godhood at that point, and it seems to be, and I don't quite, can you just touch on it briefly, and I'd like to see if you can go into that a little bit more.

Yeah, actually, where I've discussed it in print is on page 217 of the

Forgotten Trinity, which if other folks don't have,

I'll read it for them here. Matthew 27, 46, of course,

Jesus is speaking to the cross. About the ninth hour, Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani, which translated, of course, is,

My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? That being a quotation from Psalm 22. And the comments that I gave to that were the words of Jesus in Matthew 27, 46 have come in for many kinds of interpretation.

Unfortunately, many of the theories have compromised the Bible's teaching on the nature of the relationship between the

Father and the Son. The Father was never separated from or abandoned the Son. This truth is clear from many sources.

Jesus uses the second person when speaking to the Father. Why have you forsaken me? Rather than, why did he forsake me?

As if the Father is no longer present. Immediately on the heels of this statement, Jesus speaks to the Father, Father, into your hands

I commit my spirit, showing no sense of separation. Whatever else Jesus was saying, he was not saying that at the very time of his ultimate obedience to the

Father, the Father abandoned him. Rather, it seems much more logical to see this as a quotation of Psalm 22 that is meant to call to mind all of that psalm, which would include the victory of verses 19 and following, as well as verse 24, which states,

For he has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted, neither has he hidden his face from him, but when he cried to him for help, he heard.

And so, really, this was an issue that I first was confronted with back in Bible college when

I had an excellent professor who has since gone to be with the Lord by the name of Dr. D .C. Martin. And Dr.

Martin liked to bring up issues, and I think I have either consciously or unconsciously mimicked him, imitated him in my own life over the years.

He liked to bring up issues that made people think and challenged people, and he liked to basically skewer sacred cows, shall we say, commonly held beliefs that actually don't have a basis.

And he brought this up in class one day and challenged us to consider the fact that we had heard sermon after sermon after sermon that can be very emotional and very strongly preached, but he said,

Where do we get the idea that the Father abandons the Son when Jesus himself taught that it was necessary that he go to this, that he was doing this voluntarily, that he himself is the suffering servant at this point, etc.,

etc. It may preach real nicely, but there's all these problems with it. And he, being especially an

Old Testament scholar, pointed out the connection with Psalm 22 and the fact that when a Jewish person would utilize a psalm in that way, it would be similar to our beginning saying something like,

If I said to you, A mighty fortress is our God, I don't have to sing all four stanzas of A Mighty Fortress to communicate the concepts found in that hymn, because it's something you and I share together as part of our heritage, you know it, you don't have to go through the whole thing.

Well, the Psalter, of course, is the hymn book of the people of God, and so to quote those first sections of that psalm would be an application of the entirety of the psalm to Christ.

And, of course, it's a messianic psalm. It talks about his suffering, but it also talks about his victory as well.

And so I think it's much more correct and certainly more exegetically sound, and I think it's more balanced to see what

Jesus is doing there, the way that the people hearing him would have heard that. They would have known,

Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani, they would have known the use of the psalm and the context that that brought up.

They wouldn't have immediately jumped the same type of questions that people ask us today.

So that's why I've made that comment. And, of course, I do have a problem with the idea that there was some fundamental disruption in the

Godhead that takes place, especially because I believe that the gospel is a triune affair, it is a triune work, and the cross was certainly, without question, a part of the eternal plan of God.

So I just think it's best to... I know some folks that preach that sermon well, but I don't think the text really substantiates it.

Sure, because that's the one that you hear preached most often. I mean, apart from reading in the

Forgotten Trinity, I very rarely, if ever, have heard anyone say that that isn't the case. I think if you look at your exegetical commentaries, your exegetical commentaries will bring that up, whereas your, how shall we put it, expository or preaching commentaries, which aren't really commentaries, how to preach this section would be more likely to go that direction.

But I think most of your exegetical commentaries, if they're going to address the issue at all, would do so from the perspective that I mentioned.

Okay. Alrighty? Okay, well, thank you very much for calling, Martin, and I hope you all over there in the

UK will stick with us now, you know? Oh, we'll try.

Well, have a good day, mate. You too, mate. No worries.

No worries, mate. Thanks for listening, Martin. 877 -753 -3341.

Yes, the phones sound wonderful, ye of the geeky person on the other side of the thing there.

And evidently that one wire you found wasn't all that important. When I work on cars,

I end up with extra parts all the time, and it doesn't seem to bother them that much. But we don't have anybody else online, do we?

I mean, no one else is calling in. No, no one's calling in. That means

I'm going to have to start. You know, whenever I want to get conversations started in the channel, all

I have to do is threaten to begin singing from some of my favorite, especially secular artists.

And I tell you, it's amazing what ends up happening when

I do that, especially when I start quoting these artists that are just close to my heart in channel.

People start talking just in an unbelievable fashion. So I have the soundtracks here on my computer to various and sundry things.

I'm not going to do that. I would totally and completely ruin my reputation with everyone, actually.

People in channel know exactly who I'm talking about now. One has just identified one of the two that I would begin singing.

Let's just put it this way. If you don't call in, you may hear me doing a Barry Manilow impression. See, I knew that was coming up.

Oh, Julie just took a cheap shot at me. She just mentioned crisp meat burritos.

Yummers. That took my mind right off of singing immediately because it is getting close to lunchtime here, and I have no place

I can go to get a crisp meat burrito that you can get at Taco Time up in Utah. But maybe someone up there in Utah who really likes me will send me a whole bunch of frozen crisp meat burritos, and then

I could boil them myself. Well, they're not boiled. What do you call that? In the hot oil.

We should go to Levi's after the show. Yeah, I don't have time for that. I've got to finish this crazy chapter.

Hey, I did see something interesting while we're... I think you've got some calls coming in. In fact,

I should have mentioned this to Martin because Martin might have been able to comment upon this.

I found it very interesting. The infant school acts the famous children's book and other stories referring to swine to avoid upsetting its predominantly

Muslim pupils. Parents of children at Park Road Junior Infant and Nursery School in Batley, West Yorkshire, which is in the

United Kingdom for those of you who don't know, discovered the ban after spotting that words relating to pigs had been removed from homework sheets.

The school defended its decision in a statement, which of course would have sounded like this.

Recently, the head teacher has been aware of an occasion where young Muslim children in a class were read stories about pigs.

This could have caused offence to religious sensitivities. The ban, which extends only to classes under seven -year -olds, has attracted criticism from leading

British Muslims. But Inayat Bunglawala of the

Muslim Council of Britain told The Sun, this is bizarre. There is nothing to stop children from reading about pigs.

The ban is simply on the consumption of pork and pig products. So we got rid of the three little pigs so as to not offend little

Muslim boys and girls in classes. That is political correctness to the nth degree.

And I don't recall that happening in modern times for little

Christian people, little Christian children. They don't...

That's not really something anyone would be overly concerned about, I'm afraid. 877 -753 -3341.

For those of you making travel plans, by the way, I know we haven't put anything up on the website.

I'm sorry. We need to do so. But let me just mention once again, because not everyone...

I think I removed the protection flags from Theopharis' Ops account.

So one more shot at my accents. And I have that nick highlighted.

And it's only two clicks away from sticking the proverbial sock in the proverbial mouth.

So anyways, what was I saying?

Oh, April 4th and 5th, University of Utah. I believe the time is 7 p .m.

When you say, okay, where at the University of Utah, I would assume that it's the same area.

In fact, let me see if someone's in channel here. Yeah, good. Mike's in channel, so he can correct me.

Hopefully he's listening if I'm in error here. But when we had the debates at the

University of Utah last October, we had them in a... Well, it wasn't a conference room.

What was it? It was a ballroom. I mean, there were chandeliers in the whole nine yards. So we had... How many chairs did we have?

About 400, 450, something like that. In what's called, I believe, the Student Union Building.

And no, it's not. So it's not where we were before. Okay, it's someplace else.

And I will sit here and... You see, the problem is there's a lag between...

It's one building south of where it was last time. Well, that'll help everybody who hasn't been there before.

You can park in the same area though. Okay, so if you can find the Student Union Building, which, as I recall, was sort of on a loop as you went into the campus.

You took the main road in, took a loop. And if you find the

Student Union Building, then you're looking for the building that's just south. It's called the OSH Auditorium.

And that's where the debate will be, I believe, at 7 o 'clock. If you could confirm that, please, for me.

There, Mike, I'd appreciate it. And the first night will be with R. Dennis Potter, a

Mormon apologist -slash -scholar -slash -writer, on the subject of the

Atonement, and specifically the substitutionary aspects thereof. And then there will be a debate the next night between myself and Robert St.

Genes on whether the Mass is a part of the atoning work of Christ.

So, yes, 7 o 'clock has been confirmed as the specific time again.

I understand that Martin has not gotten enough of talking to me. And since I mentioned the little piggy's story, perhaps

Martin has something else to share with us. Martin, are you calling again from the great

United Kingdom for us? Well, I'm trying to forge closer links between our separated brethren, you see,

James. Separated brethren? Oh, yes. You know, I saw The Patriot again recently.

Cornwallis said something about that. But, anyways, so did you hear about the little piggy's thing?

Well, I haven't heard about that specifically, but it doesn't surprise me. Lots of things like that happen in the

UK, where we pander very much to the

Muslim community, and sometimes to the extent that we will actually... I'm more worried about offending the

Muslim community rather than the Christian community, or just the nominal atheist, shall we say. When I was...

I'm a teacher. In my second year of teaching practice, I was teaching in a predominantly Asian school in Birmingham, and I was told pretty much exactly what you said.

I was not allowed to bring up the three little pigs story in case we offended the Muslim children in the classroom.

I was actually told by the teacher that we couldn't mention anything about pigs or pork or anything to do with that. Right. Wow.

What's the percentage now in the United Kingdom itself of Muslims?

Do you know? I think in certain areas it's quite high. In Birmingham it's quite high. I'm moving up towards where you were reading about, so Bradford, Yorkshire, it's fairly high.

I think Birmingham and Bradford are the highest population. A massive

Asian and Muslim population in Birmingham. One of the things I was... I said to some of the people

I was chatting on the... on Prajapala Ghion, was a cutting I took from a paper which came out at Christmas time.

Right. And it says, Fasting praised by Lord Mayor. City residents who are fasting for the festival of Ramadan have been praised by the

Lord Mayor, Councillor Mahmood Hussain. Ramadan is a key festival in a religious calendar and it's being celebrated by Birmingham Muslims until the beginning of December.

Councillor Hussain said, I would like to offer salams to all Birmingham Muslim citizens in this holy month of Ramadan.

I know it's the month where my Muslim colleagues, friends and neighbours cut themselves off from worldly comfort to gain true sympathy.

With those who are hungry, this year Ramadan is taking place against the backdrop of tension linked to uncertain world events. The whole city is hoping these issues will be resolved quickly and peacefully.

On behalf of the city, may I send greetings to many citizens of different backgrounds who will be celebrating Ramadan and I hope it proves strengthening for the

Muslim community. Wow. That was the front page article in the newspaper just before Christmas.

Just before Christmas. It strikes me as very bizarre that even last year we weren't allowed,

I think officially, that the Birmingham Council wasn't allowed to use the word Christmas. I had to change the name of the season to Winter Ball in case we offended the

Muslims. Oh my. My wife works in a hospital and when she asked why there wasn't any decorations in the front foyer just as you go into the hospital, she was told that the director of the hospital said, we don't want to have

Christmas trees and those sorts of things here because we don't want to offend the Muslims. So it seems very much a culture, certainly in Birmingham but lots of places in England where the

Muslim viewpoint comes as a priority over anything else. Including what would be quote unquote traditional

Christian festival of Christmas. Very quickly because we have another caller, doesn't anyone there recognize that if Islam became the majority that courtesy would not be extended to minority groups under Islamic rule?

I think it's been said but again, I think the Muslims have become so powerful certainly in the

UK that no one will actually put it in print. Wow, amazing. Well thank you sir, thank you for calling back and commenting on that.

I'm sure that helps a lot of us understand a little bit more about the story that I read. So we appreciate it. Thank you

James. Thank you. Alright, bye bye. Alright, let's go ahead and talk with Mark back on the east coast somewhere shall we say.

The east, south coast, whatever you want to call South Carolina. How are you doing Mark? I'm doing pretty well.

I'm sorry I don't have a cool accent like my previous caller. Well, it does sound a little sort of southern though.

I've noticed that I've started calling Greenville, Greenville. Yeah, well. It's already rubbing off.

It is, it is. It's a sad thing. Anyways. My question has to do with the claim that has become rather popular recently that Baptists and Reformed, and by Reformed I mean

Presbyterian or United Reformed Church or something like that. The claim that Baptists and those folks have a different doctrine of justification.

Yes, yes. Obviously it's confounded but could you discuss that a little bit and why that claim would be made?

Yeah, probably only in the time we have left I only have time to just let folks know about the whole controversy itself.

And of course it's related to what we've talked about before. There have been questions that have been asked concerning the

Auburn Avenue Presbyterian Church conferences, the discussions there on the doctrine of justification.

We've played, within the last few weeks, the assertion of Pastor Steve Schlissel of Messiah's Congregation in Brooklyn that the idea that Romans and Galatians contain articles of the

Standing or Falling Church is hooey and hogwash. And this particular issue came up when

I attempted to respond to a question regarding the statement wouldn't we all agree that a man is justified or a person, to be politically correct, is justified by an obedient faith.

And I simply attempted to ask some questions concerning what that means, the relationship between justification and sanctification.

Obedience is something that comes after the point of justification, for if justification is in fact a forensic declaration on the basis of the work of Christ regarding a person and their relationship to God, then obviously the idea of obedient faith would then be something we can only observe in hindsight and later on, not at the point of justification itself.

If you try to make obedience a precondition of justification, then you end up confounding justification and sanctification and you end up doing what

Rome does in many instances. And so I honestly was simply seeking to raise that issue, well obviously the issues are in the table, but to focus on what's really important in it.

And unfortunately the responses that I got from a number of the people on the list, in essence this particular email list, in essence was that I really could not address the issue, that being a

Baptist I therefore was disqualified, that I couldn't possibly understand the issues anyways, being a

Baptist, because I obviously have missed the boat someplace along the line.

And in fact, very quickly the focus became who I was and the alleged oxymoron of the term

Reformed Baptist. And the whole issue of justification became lost.

And I did my best to refuse to be drawn into the temptation of addressing or defending myself as a

Reformed Baptist. I wanted to pursue the question that had been asked by Steve Schlissel to the entire list about justification, because that's what is important.

That's the issue. And in essence, not only was I just have my head handed to me on a platter eventually by Steve Schlissel, and that's a matter of public documentation now, but in essence exactly what you said took place, and that is that not only can

I really not know it, but what's even more troubling the days since then is the assertion that in dealing with Roman Catholicism, not only myself, but my

Presbyterian brothers who do not presume regeneration and baptism, likewise, are left in a position where they cannot meaningfully interact with Roman Catholicism.

And it's a very troubling thing indeed. So I hear the music behind me. We're unfortunately out of time.

Mark, thanks for your call. I'm sure there will be more developments on this. And the neat thing is, we're doing another Dividing Line in just two days on Thursday evening at 5 p .m.

So if there's more developments, we'll be able to talk about it then. So thanks for your call, Mark. Thanks for listening today on the

Dividing Line. Thanks to Rich Pierce for getting the phone lines to work wonderfully. This sounded great today.

And that means we'll be able to have more guests on in the future. And so we're looking forward to that. Thanks for listening today. God bless.

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