Open Phones Witnessing to Mormons & Presuppositions

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now at 602 973 460 to or toll-free across the United States. It's 1 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1. And now with today's topic here is James white.

Writing a Chapter on Church Governance and Local Church Eldership

And good morning and welcome to the dividing line. I was thinking just a moment ago I could I guess I could just sort of sit here and as I write this chapter I could sort of mumble out the words as I'm writing them and then you could say that you were there When something you eventually saw in print was being written.

But then I thought you know what that's probably not the most scintillating Kind of webcasting you could possibly do I was actually sitting here typing away. I must finish this chapter I almost have to Bolt and lock the door and just say okay.

You cannot leave until it's done because When you have a bunch of stuff you're doing all the same time and you have deadlines and one goes late it pushes everything else backwards and so that's that's a problem, especially when You have firm deadlines, and that's not you know Sometimes you can talk your publisher into give me another day or two which I've already had to do on this chapter.

But when I'm talking about deadlines, I've got deadlines the end of this month. Actually April 4th and 5th in Salt Lake City called debates that you need to prepare for that you need to Study for that you want to do reading on etc Etc etc, and if you're writing other things it just doesn't work so all right I'm not going to make you sit here while I if any of you are wondering.

I'm writing a chapter on church governance on Church rule by by elders plurality of elders, that's the perspective that that I present and that's a specifically is a You might call it the independent view that is that the local church with its? elders and deacons is God's intended design obviously as a Reformed Baptist, I don't believe in a Hierarchical structure above the elders the local church.

I argue that from a biblical perspective of course I believe that the elders are the elders and deacons are God's gift to his church in Giving that local body the ability to function as God has intended for it to function.

That you would find within that fellowship everything that the church needs to function that way and Over again, so this is for a broadman Holman book. They'll be coming out. I'm not sure when But I think it's a five views you've heard of four views books.

This is a five views books I think it's at least five views books a book with other perspectives so for example dr. Robert Raymond has written the Presbyterian perspective. There's an Episcopal perspective.

There's a single pastor perspective, and I think there's one other and I don't even know what it is which is probably not wise but anyways, that's what I'm working on and I have just been really really really really really distracted and When you're distracted When you're focused on a topic you can write I can write very quickly.

I wrote the King James only controversy in four months. But back then I wasn't Traveling all over the place and didn't have all the other stuff going on and and I could just sort of close the door of the office and boom you you did stuff, but We are so connected with folks and we get we get addicted to the connection actually I think Over time, but anyhow, that's that's what we're we're up to today.

By the way, we have our brand new awesome Super duper it's got cool lights on it and it looks exactly like the unit that we had when we were at the radio station phone system in and those who are in In in charge say that they are ready to rock and roll that there's absolutely nothing that could possibly Actually, you know beforehand we were talking about Chewing gum and bailing wire and Right before the program someone over there said hey this what's this wire go to it looks important.

And it's just really makes you feel very very confident as to how things are going to go. So the the the possibilities are that when you call eight seven seven seven five three thirty three forty one eight seven seven seven five three thirty three forty one.

That there's a there's a slight possibility that when we go. Let's talk to Don in Los Angeles or or whatever all of a sudden you're gonna hear a wah-wah and I will you'll hear me groveling on the floor having been permanently rendered deaf By the explosion in my headphones and that'll be the end that'll that'll be it.

So that is a possibility, but we are on the bleeding edge of webcasting here. And so we do invite your participation at eight seven seven seven five three thirty three forty one and.

Webcasting around the world with bailing wire chewing gum and anything else I can get my hands on. Turn that man's microphone off.

He's he's he's messing me up. Gracious anyways, hey. In fact someone has already unlike anyone in our chat channel, which is normally populated by chickens. Wait a minute. I need to do something here sound off.

Oh, that's that's red. Yes spell off correctly there. Oh good, I Keep forgetting to turn that off and I just knew someone like Balthazar would come in and play some goofy Goofy wave file right in the middle of everything and mess everything up actually he's supposedly still sleeping.

According to his Nick there, and he lives in Australia. So it's okay to be sleeping at this time of day when you live in Australia, but. Anyways someone actually has already called in fact. In fact, this should make everyone see marquee 22 played the chicken wave.

I knew it was coming. And I managed to turn it off before it before it messed everything up. This should really make all of you Americans feel badly, but a Canadian has called first today and a Canadian has called first to Use the the brand new phone system.

And I think it's an honor to be the first one to use a brand new phone system of course. The result could be that he likewise will be deafened by the the horrific sound. That could sometimes usher from these really cool These really cool phone systems.

But let's go ahead before I ramble on too much more and to go ahead and talk with Rick in Calgary, Alberta. About well a number of things. I just love when the call screeners give you such real specific things, but anyways Rick yes.

Hey, I I could you can hear me perfectly and I can hear you real well, too. Oh excellent, and my my my my headphones didn't melt or anything. Don't you just love technology? When it works, okay? When it when it doesn't it leaves us all sitting here wondering what we're going to do before I forget.

When we're done with our conversation, can you patch me back through to one of your helpers? I'd like to get on your chat channel. Ah I'm kind of a simple country boy, and I can't navigate my way on.

Well, I could tell you what. There's only one quote-unquote helper over there and. Some tells me unless we have unless everything goes dead after after we're done talking. That's he'll probably say well.

There's there's directions in on the IV. Have you seen it on the website. The director, but I'm a simple country boy.

Yes, I could. It'd be kind of neat I could get on and being a Lutheran then you Calvinist could beat me up.

Oh, well, you know what we probably would.

Over my anti-calcedonian ubiquitism. My baptismal regeneration. There you contradict. Review of divine election there you go.

I would you'd you'd definitely fit fit in perfectly there. Someone in channel just said tell him to come in channel. We can give him instructions. That and that that man happens to have started his career as as a helpdesk person.

So he mentioned that earlier today, so I really appreciate the help that he just provided to you. Anyways what?

Well, I I have a I have a suggestion for a debate. Ah okay, okay? Resolved. God is neither a Cosmic rapist or a cosmic puppeteer. Is based on sound biblical exegesis. For the affirmative would be Hank the answer guy for the negative would be you.

What do you think?

Well, you know it's funny. There is I can't give any specifics because I haven't heard any for a long long long long time, but You know that call that that discussion Takes place regularly on the Bible answer man broadcast and so there is a great desire on the part of Hank and Those in in charge to have at least a Bible answer man broadcast of a couple days length on the subject of The will of man and the sovereignty of God and they have been trying now at least.

See when did I get my first phone call. I got my first phone call at the beginning of April last year and Let's just say things are ongoing and hopeful for the next maybe 90 days. Yeah. Possibility of that type of thing taking place, but yeah, you know Hank's been using the term libertarian free will of late.

He included that I guess in in one of his books on resurrection, so yeah We definitely take a different perspective on that. The nice thing is it seems that He would like to have a conversation about that on the Bible answer man broadcast.

Excellent.

So, you know, I mean he just goes to show what your your old man Charles Haddon Spurgeon said. Inside the inside the heart of every human being baits a pure Pelagian heritage.

I'll tell you I I would trade Almost anything to have the ability to communicate and to be a wordsmith and have the the command of language That Charles Haddon Spurgeon. I tell you.

The other thing I'd like to I'd like to relate my own personal experiences here. I I'd like to go around to the churches here in Calgary and watch people make strange fire unto the Lord, you know. And I went to this Humongous castle by a Canadian standards.

It's humongous. There was about 1 ,500 people in this place.

You had to go down to Texas. Oh, yeah well.

Anyway, this guy's up on the stage and he's wandering back and forth with his mic on his and he's yelling and he's screaming and people Are shouting hallelujah and praise the Lord and so on. And at one point he said and if you believe that Jesus Christ is your Savior you are halfway there.

Halfway there. Yeah, and so I stood I just stood up right and he's walking back and forth and yelling and screaming and Carrying on and he sees me out of the corner of his eyes. He's walking back and forth and that eventually he stops, right?

And he says to me he said do you have a question? And I said, no, I don't have a question. I do have a comment though. I said you sir. I said what. Well actually what I said was the Lord rebuked you and I opposed and refute you.

You sir are a ferocious wolf among the sheep and I walked out and 18 people left with me. That's the best days work.

Well, I didn't know they allowed things like that in Canada. Fact I didn't even know Canadians Did things like that because I've just always sort of assumed it's so cold there that you all just move very slowly.

And that's why y 'all don't really, you know get excited about too many things, but I'm except for hockey. Would you?

Would you consider that proselytizing on my part? Oh, well almost I.

That sounds a little bit like Like what I did many many moons ago when I was but a but a pup. My my wife and I when I first started studying Mormonism. We went to the local Ward Chapel. We found the closest place and and so I went to local Ward Chapel.

This was 19. Oh Goodness, this would have been about 1983 I believe yep coming up on I think you know what I think I think it was last weekend was the 20th anniversary of this my goodness I hadn't even had even thought about but anyways, we went on the first Sunday I didn't know a lot about at the time and if you're familiar with Mormonism the first Sunday of the month is Fasting and testimony Sunday.

Oh, yeah, and so we're sitting there and they get up and they say if anyone would like to give a testimony now it's time to do so and then they sat down and I I Remember thinking very specifically myself.

They said if anyone they didn't say if any Mormon. They said if any one and so I my mind starts going to my wife's looking me very very nervously. And I did not get up that day but what I did is I observed I saw how long it went how they handled it and The next this would be coming up this the the first weekend I believe in April oh, no, it wasn't May.

Is it a March or well anyways the next month We showed up again. And this time there were a few other people with us and when they said if anyone has testimony give I wasn't the first one. Up there. I waited till a few people had done their things and then I I got up and unfortunately Right as I got up somebody else got up and they got there before me.

So I had to sit down next to the bishop while the other guy was talking and Then I got up there and if you've ever been to an LDS meeting. They don't have a nursery. And Mormons tend to have lots of kids and so it tends to be even when nothing's going on.

It tends to be fairly Noisy and lots of folks moving around stuff like that. And so I got up there and I said I you know I appreciate this opportunity to to give my testimony especially since I'm I'm not a member of the Church of Jesus Christ Latter-day Saints and ma 'am what was really freaky about it was I expected and it really didn't shock me that the Adults all you know were staring at me and everything became quiet.

But if the little kids were staring at me, that's what that was the weird part I mean the place you could hear a pin drop and so I started talking about justification and after I'd memorized about I don't know a dozen scriptures that I wanted to share them after about five or six of them this thing flew over my over my shoulder and landed on the what we'd call a pulpit and I I Opened the it was a bulletin that had been folded up, and I opened it up.

It said brother white our time is up now I knew what time it was and I knew that the month before they had gone a lot longer. So I knew this was just a way of getting me to shut up and get out of the way.

And so I did and I I went and sat down and man the line formed on the left I mean every missionary every former missionary in that place got up to give their testimony. Of course, they gave their testimony directly at me.

I mean, you know I mean They're just all just focused in right on me and as soon as the last note of the organ played of the last song they sang. The first counselor to the bishop was right at the end of our row this handout saying the bishop would like to speak with you.

So we got to go into the bishop's office and and talk with with the brother Bruce Balls was his name Bishop Balls was his name and We talked about. That's what I learned in that conversation that not all men had sinned.

He informed me he had heard the Prophet speak of perfect men. And in fact, he was he was Offended that I would talk about the fact that all men were sinners because they're a perfect man. So that's that's what I learned.

You have to actually memorize all the passages in Scripture talk about the universal sinfulness of man. To talk to to talk to Mormons, too. So anyways, that's a little bit like like what we did at that particular point in time many many moons ago.

Yeah, well, I just couldn't handle it. I mean it was well, what was he saying the other half involved?

Well, I Didn't stick around long enough to find out because I walked out. Uh-huh, you know. But I mean it would have had a lot to do with. I see. Okay Life and you know, I mean you take it right out of Methodist minutes to the handbook.

Okay, so we all points bulletin to all churches in Calgary Alberta. Watch out for Rick.

I'd like to send you something that I hand out in front of these places like you stand out in front of the temple.

Well, there's a there's a contact link on on the website and If you want to drop us an email and then That goes to certain people who then pass it on to me. If I gave you my email address My email volume would triple right now.

So just mail at a omin org. We'll we'll get it into the system and then it'll get to me that way. Mail at a omin org. Okay. All right. All right. Thanks for calling Rick. I don't run off on it.

Can I can I go back and help those guys. Have those guys now? Okay, I'll see if you you know.

It's a new system. So hopefully it has the really fancy capacity of talking to you again. All right. Thanks for calling Rick. God bless. Eight-seven-seven seven five three thirty-three forty one. Eight seven seven seven five three thirty three forty one.

Predestination, Sovereignty, and the Will of Man

We actually do. Hey Yahoo, we have other callers. Here we go. Let's uh, let's talk to Greg up there in. I'm assuming this is Michigan Livonia Livonia Michigan it's probably a little bit cooler there than it is here.

Yeah, we're actually.

North of some parts of Canada. Oh, just we cross over the bridge here from Detroit to Windsor and that you can go. You can head south actually into Canada.

Oh, well, that's a pretty far north that and it's what what what's temperature up there today? It's about 30 with actually pretty warm. That's not bad. That's not bad. It's only about 60 here. So point.

No.

Why are you afraid it? I'm a newer Listener and I just wanted to call and say I appreciate your ministry. It's been very helpful to me. And I've listened a lot of your Tapes a real audio tape. Uh-huh, and I just wanted to comment.

I listened To you on a radio show with Van Halen years ago. Yes, it was gussing predestination. Yes, and then and then I recently I've listened to you when you were on the Marty Minow show with Dave hunt.

Yes, uh-huh, and the similarities of the two conversations were really amazing to me because you would you know discuss the passages in Romans 9 and I remember you said to Van Halen you asked him you said How are how are your objections?

Not what Paul is saying, you know in Romans? 9 20 mm-hmm, and and I was just it just made me realize that that very similar and they had the same objections. But what amazed me is that you would show them all the verses in the Bible that would show God's sovereign choice.

And both of them kind of had the same reaction. They would kind of ignore those verses and move on and they'd make a comment to the effect that in their opinion the great preponderance of Verses or teachings in the Bible did not teach that and I just wanted to get your comment on this.

Yeah psychology of that.

Yeah, you know, it's funny. I I I Remember back to the program with Van Halen for people who aren't familiar with these Discussions Van Hale is a is a Mormon. He's a little bit of an unusual Mormon, I don't know that he would even disagree with that in the sense that You know, he uses I like today's English version and he he's a Mormon apologist of types.

But he takes somewhat of a liberal perspective on a number of issues That most Mormons would not and we had this little conversation. Actually, it wasn't overly little was a couple hours long and we just discussed the subject of predestination election, which he found fascinating.

Of course, he doesn't believe in inerrancy. And so the whole idea Seems very strange to him and you may recall one of the things that he stated. But I thought you know, I gave him credit for was he said in essence, you know If I started with your presuppositions regarding the inerrancy of Scripture The ideas that you have there then what you believe would make sense.

I just don't start where you start and I found that a very very interesting interesting statement on his part and You know, he he did basically say yeah, I am making the objections. That's That that Paul deals with here. I Understand where you're coming from it.

It's logical etc. Etc. I just I just cannot possibly believe that that God would be that way or would create that way.

Etc, etc. And it's the same thing that Dave Hunt would say, you know.

It is Fundamentally, the conclusions are the same. Dave would not of course say what what van said in regards to rejecting inerrancy? But he would come down to the exact same conclusion And use many of the very same Arguments and I've tried to point that out and and when I do point that out to to Dave That is considered either to be ad hominem Argumentation if you and many people will will view it that way and almost any discussion day if you Demonstrate that an argument that is being used Utilizes the same fundamental presuppositions as an argument that both of you would consider heretical.

Many times a person will consider that simply to be An attack against them personally, even if you have simply presented it as an inconsistency in their own position. There's not a whole lot of good training in in real argumentation logic these days, but but Dave especially I Think approaches the issue in a considerably more emotional way Than van Hale.

Does I mean vans coming from a completely different perspective on the nature of God on the authority of Scripture? Things like that.

He thinks that if there is such a thing as irresistible grace He seems to imply that it's owed to everybody, right?

Well, and when you say he there I'd have to go which one. Because they both in essence said that right? Certainly that is the case for for Dave the the the concept of irresistible grace is is not only to him something to be rejected vociferously, but.

The same thing is true with Norman Geisler. That is one of the one of the issues for him. That likewise created this very very strong emotional response. I Honestly don't believe norm can discuss the concept of irresistible grace without Throwing in some very strong terms like divine rape and and things like that Dehumanizing us and and things like that because he just he is very very emotionally involved with it as Dave is as well.

Their whole defense primarily on what you call the big three.

Yes, of course Matthew 20 to 37 first in the two-fourth second Peter 3 9 and and none of them to my knowledge Has has ever produced a meaningful exegesis of any of those texts. They are simply cited as if the the meaning is self-evident.

And could not possibly be questioned by anyone. And I've tried, you know Lord knows I have tried to to get each one of these individuals to to interact on an exegetical level. But as in other things in my life just this past Just this past week in fact.

Getting folks who claim to be Christians and who claim to teach the Word of God to Interact with you on an exegetical level. Merely the the you know to honor the Word of God as the Word of God is the final court of authority.

Is is far far more often? Impossible than it is possible these days unfortunately. And you very quickly when you ask to go into the text Discover that many times you're stepping on someone's tradition and when their tradition is challenged on a biblical basis.

Most folks will respond with some sort of of an emotional response as you saw both with with Dave And what you see with Norm Geisler and to a different extent Van Hale as well. I mean his tradition obviously isn't just simply an unspoken extra biblical tradition.

It's an entire religion tradition and in the sense of the LDS scriptures and the teachings of the prophets the Mormon Church and things like that.

The book you're doing with Dave Hunt will be a continuation of that discussion. Uh.

Wow, how do I how do I even describe it? I have said to to many many people that the book that I'm doing with Dave Hunt Which is as soon as I finish this chapter That's the next thing I have to get into and have to get stuff done with really literally in the next couple of days.

The the book that I'm doing with with Dave Hunt's I Guess it's I've told the publisher this I can I can tell you this as well is going its value is going to be based in my opinion upon the contrasting styles of Presentations.

In other words the best I can do given the format of the of the of the entire presentation is Try to differentiate myself primarily by the means that I use to respond to mr. Hunt the reason being My belief was that this book was supposed to be I present seven positive statements, which I did Presenting my perspective.

Mr. Hunt presented seven negative statements rather than positive statements. He did not choose to actually define his own faith in a positive way. Just simply to attack Calvinism. And then the problem is my understanding was each one of these presentations was to be focused on one topic so that the reader would be able to follow a Dialogue a back-and-forth dialogue on one particular topic that each one of us chose seven of the fourteen topics of view that would be addressed.

Dave does not stick to one topic in a presentation. He wanders all over the place. I Then have to try to respond to his presentation in far fewer words and You can imagine what it's like to try to present a cogent understandable Response to a presentation.

It's all over the road That that well good example I don't know if you've heard it and I if someone maybe Mark Ennis and channel it could could pull up the URL for us or something like that. Dr. Piper from Greenville Presbyterian Seminary debated Dave Hunt and The topic this is May 4th or 5th of last year.

The topic was supposed to be The atonement limited atonement is the atonement of Christ specifically for the elect or is it for Every single individual human who's ever lived or will live etc. Etc. Dr. Piper had a 20-minute opening statement he he presented a very clear presentation and It was focused it was all on the intention of the atonement and the effect of the atonement and and I honestly don't think there's anything that he Said that I wouldn't have said in pretty much the exact same way Dave Hunt got up blasted all five points of Calvinism and a few that Calvinists had never thought of before.

He never stuck to the subject. He never focused in upon what dr. Piper said. He didn't respond to what dr. Piper said. The same thing is going on in this book and the result of course then is is I'll present a chapter on John 6 for example and His response is literally all over the planet.

He'll respond to you know, all sorts of things and the result is I really think that the reader is going to have a hard time following what it is. We're trying to talk about Because it ends up going all over the place.

So I'm just hoping that the differences in the presentation at least my presentations will be clear enough to communicate something Otherwise, I think it's going to be very confusing to a lot of folks.

Unfortunately, I just have to have to be honest. I've told the publisher that and Unfortunately, mr. Hunt has no interest in Allowing an outside editor to to have a word to say Concerning whether he has or has not stuck to the subject.

And so I've just said, okay fine. Well, I'll do I'll do what I can do and that's that's all all there is to it.

Well, thanks for taking my call. Okay, I want to say your new schedule works better for me. All right. Well, I'm always out cutting the lawn Saturday afternoon and I end up missing the Saturday show. All righty.

Well, we appreciate that information and thanks for calling today. Thank you. All right. God bless Greg 877 -753 -3341. We need to take quick break and When we come back, we'll be talking with Martin in England.

And yes, I am going to do my British accent again, but don't use that as an excuse to leave stay there. We'll be right back Charlie. Good at what all.

Answering those who claim that only the King James Version is the Word of God. James White in his book the King James only controversy examines allegations that modern translators conspired to corrupt scripture and lead believers away from true Christian faith in a readable and responsible style.

Author James White traces the development of Bible translations old and new and Investigates the differences between new versions and the authorized version of 1611. You can order your copy of James White's book the King James only controversy by going to our website at www .a Omin org.

What is dr. Norman Geisler warning the Christian community about in his book chosen. But free a new cult secularism false prophecy scenarios. No, dr Geisler is sounding the alarm about a system of beliefs commonly called Calvinism.

He insists that this belief system is theologically inconsistent. Philosophically insufficient and morally repugnant. In his book the potter's freedom. James White replies to dr Geisler, but the potter's freedom is much more than just a reply.

It is a defense of the very principles upon which the Protestant Reformation was founded. Indeed it is a defense of the very gospel itself in a style that both scholars and laymen alike can appreciate.

James White Masterfully counters the evidence against so-called extreme Calvinism. Defines what the reformed faith actually is and concludes that the gospel preached by the reformers is the very one taught in the pages of scripture.

The potter's freedom a defense of the Reformation and a rebuttal to Norman Geisler's chosen. But free you'll find it in the reformed theology section of our bookstore at a omen. Or this portion of the dividing line has been made possible by the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church.

The Apostle Paul spoke of the importance of solemnly testifying of the gospel of the grace of God. The proclamation of God's truth is the most important element of his worship in his church. The elders and people of the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church invite you to worship with them this coming Lord's Day.

The morning Bible study begins at 930 a .m. And the worship service is at 1045. Evening services are at 6 30 p .m. On Sunday and the Wednesday night prayer meeting is at 7. The Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church is located at 3805 North 12th Street in Phoenix.

You can call for further information at 602 -26-grace. If you're unable to attend you can still participate with your computer and real audio at PR BC org. Where the ministry extends around the world through the archives of sermons and Bible study lessons available 24 hours a day.

Psalm 22 and the Meaning of “My God, My God, Why Have You Forsaken Me?”

Hey, hey, there we are. Hi. It's the dividing line. It's Tuesday morning. Someday. I'll get used to this and when I wake up on Tuesday mornings I'll remember we're doing. I Was come wandering into the office, you know, you sit down start looking at what's come in email there any Real bad things you need to deal with immediately, you know.

Put some fires out so on so forth and your mind's all foggy and then all of a sudden you go. Oh Yeah, I do something this morning. Hey, what what are we gonna do? I totally forgot about it. Anyways, but and Anyways 877 -753 -3341 Is the phone number for you to call and that is the number that is the number that Martin called and Martin is is in is in the United Kingdom and I must tell you Martin that one of your one of your your citizens.

Recently a friend of mine named John Sampson Raised his hand in a court of law here in the United States and renounced all fealty to foreign Potentates and he's now an American citizen. Goodness. So I just wanted you to know that the colonies are still growing.

Sorry there Martin, I know you say that I actually sound like an Aussie. But right now am I managing to to slur things properly enough to make it in England I. Okay, yes, sir Martin, okay, well, you know Martin have you ever seen the the was it I think of the Disney film called the parent trap.

It's it's about the twins that meet at a camp and discover that they're long separated Twins and they try to get their parents back together again and one lives in England. Yes, I think so. Yes and Martin is the is the butler in in England in London.

And so every time you hear Martin I hear it as they said, oh Martin.

I hate to say it. But anyways, what what can we do for you today? I was just ringing quickly to find out Matthew 27 46 were forsaken me.

Yeah, actually, yeah, actually where I've discussed it in print is on page 217 of the Forgotten Trinity Already which if other folks don't have I'll I'll Read it for him here. Matthew 27 46, of course Jesus speaking of the cross about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice saying Eli Eli Lama Sabbath and I which which translated of course is my God my God.

Why have you forsaken me that being a quotation from? Psalm 22 and the comments that I gave to that Were the words of Jesus of Matthew 27 46 have come in for many kinds of interpretation unfortunately.

Many of the theories have comprised of compromised the Bible's teaching the nature of the relationship between the father and son. The father was never separated from or abandoned the son. This truth is clear from many sources Jesus uses.

The second person was speaking to the father. Why have you forsaken me rather than why did he forsake me as if the father is no longer present? Immediately on the heels this statement Jesus speaks to the father father into your hands I commit my spirit showing no sense of separation.

Whatever else Jesus was saying he was not saying that at the very time of his ultimate obedience to the father. The father abandoned him rather. It seems much more logical to see this as a quotation of Psalm 22 That is meant to call to mind all of that Psalm which would include the victory of verses 19 and following as well as verse 24 Which states for he has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted neither has he hidden his face from him?