Provoked: Engaging a Roman Catholic on Justification

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00:03

Welcome everybody to another episode of Provoked. I'm Jake flying solo today.

00:08

I am without Zach and Desi, although I already miss them dearly. We got a bit of a special episode here for you today.

00:16

We're gonna be talking about a very important topic, the topic of justification.

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How does a person have peace with God? I have a special guest. I'll intro in just a second.

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Before we get there, I want to encourage all of you, those who listen in and watch the show, to head over to Apologia Studios, specifically

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Apologia All Access. You can go become an All Access member when you do that. Not only is it gonna be helpful for you in strengthening your faith, ability to equip you and defend your faith, but also it helps us continue to get the gospel to the ends of the earth.

00:52

That's what we're hoping to do here at Apologia Studios. That's our goal. That's our aim. That's why we do this.

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So, jumping in here, I have again a special episode. We're gonna be engaging in a conversation, a bit of an informal debate on an essential topic, the issue of justification.

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How does a sinner have peace with God? How can we be made right before God?

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Perhaps the most important question that we can ask ourselves. And for hundreds of years now, since the time of the

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Reformation, Protestants and Catholics have had different answers to that question. And we both believe truth exists, that there is truth to be known, and what is that?

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What is that path? What is that way to have peace with God? So I'm gonna be presenting, defending the

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Protestant position, and then I have a very good friend who's gonna be representing the

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Catholic position, who's coming on the show, Mr. Trey Brock. Trey, welcome to Provoke, my friend. Thanks for having me, man.

01:52

It's good to catch up with you again. And I'm gonna do my best to defend the

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Catholic position, but you gave a good intro. It's just, I think, and we've had conversations like this before,

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Jake, where we're just trying to get a truth. And if that's the goal, if that's the end,

02:09

I think that we're on the right track. So I'm excited for the conversation. And yeah, thanks for having me on.

02:15

Absolutely, man. Well, tell us a little bit about you for a few moments. What have you been up to in previous years?

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And then what are you doing right now? Yeah. OK, well, so Jake and I, Jake and I played football together at Hillsdale.

02:31

Jake was, you were a grade above me. And you actually led, you and another teammate, led a

02:38

Bible study that I used to go to. And so that would have been, I don't even know. That would have been like 2020, 2021 or I'm sorry, not 2021.

02:49

That would have been like 2016, 2017, somewhere along those lines. After I graduated from Hillsdale, I tried to keep playing football.

02:57

That didn't work out. So I had to figure out what I was going to do. I went and worked in a Catholic media organization where I was a writer and a producer, really just producing

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Catholic content, similar to what you guys do. You guys mix the faith with the culture and you guys are very involved with pro -life and with the culture wars.

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And that's similar to where I was at. While I was there, I did a master's degree in theology. I did that at Holy Apostles College and Seminary.

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It was my concentration was moral theology, took about two years to finish. So that was fun. And then

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I coached high school football on track at a Catholic high school down the down the street. And I'm no longer at that Catholic media organization anymore.

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And I'm getting married in May. So that's fun. But that's a brief, brief background for me.

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So, yeah. Awesome. I want to point that out, too. We played we played football together, so we've known each other. It's coming up on 10 years now.

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I was just doing the math that we've known each other. I know. Isn't that crazy? Yeah, Trey was.

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Yeah, not not 2021. I don't know why I said that, but it was a while. Yeah, a little bit longer than that.

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But yeah, we know each other for a while. Trey, you can go look him up. Unbelievable wide receiver. I was the big fat guy on the line trying to keep the quarterback safe so you could catch touchdown passes.

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But yeah, I've known each other for a while. We've we've really grown in our convictions, you know, since that time and have had some really good one on one conversations.

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And I thought it'd be helpful. I hope it's edifying, encouraging for people for us to engage and get into it a bit here on the show.

04:34

So, well, let's start off here, Trey, with just defining our terms. I think that's an important place to begin when we talk about the idea of justification.

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So I'll let you run with it here first. How would you define justification? Roman Catholic teaching, how do you how do you define what justification is?

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Yeah, I think the easiest way and I can read a couple of quotes from Trent or the catechism, but I think the easiest way of explaining justification from a

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Catholic viewpoint is just the cooperation with grace. And so God offers us a gift.

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He offers us freedom, liberation, joy, peace. And that gift is something that we can either say yes to or no to.

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And justification would be the cooperation with God's grace through faith.

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And there's actually a maybe we'll get into this later, but there's a joint declaration that was put out in like nineteen ninety nine.

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And it was with Protestants. I'm sure that you guys are aware of it. And there's a little quote that I'll read that may kind of help us out, but it says there's a common understanding of our justification by God's grace through faith in Christ.

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And so the the the conversations, the debates are all about what faith is, what the meaning of faith is.

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But in short, the way that I would kind of start this off would be the Catholic take would be it's cooperation.

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Justification has everything to do with man's cooperation with with the gift that God offers us.

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Yeah. And that gift, just so our listeners, because I want to I think one of the first steps we talk about these kinds of issues is understanding the other's position correctly and not making a straw man or doing a caricature.

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So when you say that that faith, when you talk about faith, when does that come in and talk a little bit about the sacramental system and how that works?

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Yeah, so at at baptism and typically in the in the church, you're going to get baptized when you're when you're an infant.

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But obviously you can get baptized if you have a conversion when you're older. So at baptism, you are infused with the

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Holy Trinity. So you are infused. And part of that is the the the three virtues of faith, hope and charity.

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And so faith is actually and this is oftentimes maybe not properly broken down by many

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Catholics. But faith is that I think it's fair to say that chief or that principal virtue in the sense that faith produces hope and generates charity.

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And so I would say that you can't have like we like we'll talk about later. You can't have an authentically good work without true faith.

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But so baptism would be when the sacrament is just God communicating to a soul grace, invisible grace, which you can't see.

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And it's done by a physical sign. And so baptism, you have the water. But what's happening in the soul is you're infused with the

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Holy Trinity. And so at that moment, you would have you would have the gift of faith, hope and charity and some other things.

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And then so as you grow up, you would be cooperating with that. And that's how you cultivate a stronger faith.

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And you ask God and because it's a gift, you it's proper to ask God for more faith or more hope or more charity.

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But so baptism would kind of be where I start. Yeah. OK. And you touched on two things here.

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I want to make sure we clarify and we'll get into some questions I have for you and then questions for me.

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One of the one of the important pieces you touched on there is faith. It's it's happens at our baptism.

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The the whole Holy Trinity is infused into us. And then over the course of our life, justification continues.

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So that's that's a difference right there. I want to make sure we highlight is that and correct me if I'm wrong, but the Catholic understanding justification is a process.

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It's it's it's ongoing. It begins. It has a middle and then it has an end. Am I am

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I on target there? Yeah, I think so. And I don't I don't want to. Yeah, I think that that that that's probably for the most part correct justification the way that I see it.

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So somebody who is justified is somebody somebody who is saved. And so somebody who is saved, you're you're not going to know that the

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Catholic understanding would be, you know, that you're saved or justified when you're justified. And that would be you're being judged by God and he either lets you in or or you've, you know, shot yourself in the foot and you're going the other direction.

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But but yeah, it's a process in the sense that it's something that is ongoing.

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It's something that has happened, is continuing to happen and will happen. It's past, present and future.

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And so it's not something we wouldn't understand justification as something that has happened in the past and the past alone.

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And it's not I know that that would be one of the main differences is the the idea of the process versus when it happened at that at that one moment in time.

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But I think that's I think that's for the most part. I think that's correct. What you said. Last piece here. And I'll jump into my some questions.

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You were talking about righteousness. We would both agree that righteousness, that is true and perfect righteousness, the

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Council of Trent, it's sometimes sometimes called justice, is required for a sinner to have peace with God.

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Righteousness is required. And again, correct me if I'm wrong, but as what

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I've seen reading through the Council of Trent, inherent righteousness is the righteousness that will avail before God in the

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Catholic understanding. So so what am I saying there? For a sinner to get to heaven, righteousness must be inherent within that person.

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Now, of course, God's grace helps and faith and but but you yourself will be inherently righteous.

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And then that is the point at which a person goes to heaven. Am I on target there?

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Yeah, I think that's again, I think that's for the most part. It sounds it sounds right.

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I don't I mean, like the definition of righteousness, it's like, OK, well, what what exactly is is that the one thing

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I would say, Jake, is the Catholic understanding of of salvation or the

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Catholic understanding of justification is always should always be looked at, I think, in terms of of the here and now and also the eternal.

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And so the Catholic understanding, I think, would be it's not so much a fixation on knowing that you are you are righteous.

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That's something that a Catholic, I believe, would say you can have a you can have a certain degree of confidence if you're living right, if you're accepting the truth, choosing that truth as the good.

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You're saying yes to God in a given moment. You can be confident about your righteousness or your your state with God.

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But you can't you can't know for sure. That's, again, something that you would know, you know, at your at your at your personal judgment.

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But but yes, the righteousness would be kind of the the term that we would have to define. But I think, again,

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I think that your presentation of the Catholic position is for the most part, it sounds right.

11:54

Yeah, OK. Yeah. And let's disagree with me here, man. If I am if I'm off, let me know.

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I'm sorry. So you're sounding you sound great. I want to I want to list I want to just present here my position and then

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I'll jump into some questions here for you, Trey. How do I understand it? Protestants, specifically the reformed tradition, how do

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I understand justification? I'd say it's the act by which God pardons our sins and declares us as righteous on the basis of the righteousness of Jesus Christ alone.

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I'd say this act of justification, it's carried out in its entirety by God. It is done by his grace through faith alone in Christ Jesus, separate from any act on the part of the sinner.

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Salvation, therefore, is a work completed solely by God. It belongs to God alone, lest any man should boast.

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So there's my I typed it out, kind of concise statement on on where I land when it comes to justification.

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And already I'm hoping people will start to pick up on some of the differences here. One of the ways

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I've heard it described is a monergistic view of salvation versus a synergistic view.

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So a monergistic in the sense that God alone is the one doing the saving, apart from any act, apart from any action whatsoever on the part of the sinner, versus synergistic, which is

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God making the first move in salvation, but cooperation with the faith that is given to you.

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So that's that's where we're at here. Those are the two positions we're talking through.

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I want to I appreciate you walking us through that here, Trey. I want to start first question here.

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I'm going to quote Robertson Jennis. Do you know who that is? Yeah, I used to watch his.

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I don't know. Well, yeah, I think he did a debate with with James White back in the day. I watched this like I watched.

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I had to watch this like five or six years ago. So, yeah, I know. I know the name Robertson Jennis.

13:54

Yeah. I watched that exact debate you're talking about. I don't know when it was, but it was a while ago.

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It might, it might've been before you and I were born. I don't know. Probably. So, Jennis, he says this in his book called

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Not by Faith Alone. He's talking about justification. He says, God makes the first move in the life of the individual through provenient grace, i .e.

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that which comes before. As the individual responds to this grace, both by faith and works, he attains a specific righteous quality in the eyes of God by merely responding to God's call and continuing to respond in faith, hope, and love.

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So, first of all, how does that square with you? Does that sound right? Would you agree with Robertson Jennis with that quote?

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Yeah. Okay. I think that's, I think that's correct. It sounds good. The distinctions that I would make, obviously, so would be like an adult versus like an infant, because Robert is obviously talking about responding to grace and he's talking about works and he's talking about charity.

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That was basically my, that's my understanding. That's, I think that's the Catholic take is just, it's a cooperation with grace.

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So it is God acting first. I think that's correct. The way that he said that faith is not something that you can just, you can just get on your own.

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It's something that God infuses into the soul and it's a gift. So it's unmerited. And so he's correct in saying that it is first and foremost a gift and that it is up to you, to the individual with freedom to choose to respond to that grace.

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And that obviously is different if you're an infant. How are you going to assent to truth? You don't have, you don't have reason.

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And so that doesn't make much sense. But if you're an adult, you know, I think that, I think that his, his definition has a lot to do with kind of the adult, the adult assent to truth and response to grace.

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It's different for infants, obviously, because they don't have, you know, they're not at the age of reason yet. But that's the one distinction

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I think that I would make that might clear some things up. But I think that's, I think that sounds good. What Robert, what

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St. Jenna said. Let's, let's focus in here. You mentioned the adults. It would be up to you from an adult perspective.

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In responding to the grace conferred upon you at your baptism, how do you reconcile something like that?

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The, the works in cooperation with your faith, with what the apostle Paul teaches. Ephesians chapter two, verses eight and nine.

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We see this, we see, for by grace, you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing. It is the gift of God, not a result of works so that no one may boast.

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How do you, how do you reconcile those two things? So yeah, so St. Paul is just wrong. No, no, we're going to cut it off right there.

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And you said, yeah, thanks. No, um, uh, I don't, I'm not,

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I'm not, I'm not meaning to, to, uh, repeat myself, but I think this is the best way that I can, uh, that I can explain it is that it goes back to the definition of faith.

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So faith is very simply faith is belief in God and all that he has revealed to us.

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And it is first and foremost, again, a gift. And so faith has everything to do, um, like in the quote that St.

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Paul, that you just mentioned, any good work, uh, has its origin in true faith.

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Um, that's how I would, um, that's how I would say it. Um, you cannot have a good work, uh, that is apart from faith.

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So they're not contradictory. They go hand in hand and a good work is the fruit of authentic faith.

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Is that the way that I would say it? And I don't want to, if there's another question you want to ask, cause I know I'm repeating myself, but I just want to, that's, that's my understanding, uh, of, of faith from a

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Catholic perspective, faith is belief in God and all that he's revealed and it is a gift that is infused into the soul and it is the human being assenting to and cooperating with that gift.

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And that would be where you see the good works. That would be where you see the charity, the, the, the corporal, the spiritual works of mercy, um, yada, yada.

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But that would be how I understand any sort of authentic work. It has its origin and root in, uh, in, in faith.

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And this quote, hopefully it helps a little bit. The Council of Trent says, um, it defines faith as the beginning of salvation and the root of justification.

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And so that, um, you know, the Council of Trent can define this stuff a lot better than me, but hopefully that helps a little bit.

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Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's helpful to distinguish too, is that the Catholic position doesn't exclude faith.

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Sometimes Protestants can think, well, this is the Catholics, Catholics believe justification by works. We believe justification by faith.

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No, it's not a case. Trent teaches about the importance of faith that it is necessary. Um, however,

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And if I can, if I can interject real quick, Catholics, like Catholics all the time, they, in, in participating in debates like this, they will, um, in my opinion, they will, um, they will separate works and faith, and that's why

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I'm trying to put a lot of emphasis on the root of the works is coming from faith. That is, that is my understanding of the, of the authentic Catholic position.

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But a lot of times when Catholics and Protestants are debating, the Catholic will just say, well, no, you need faith and you also need works.

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And when they present it like that, it's almost like you're saying they're two separate things. It's like separating faith and reason or nature and, uh, and grace.

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They go hand in, they go hand in hand. Um, but, uh, I hope that makes sense because Catholics do that all the time.

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And it kind of, I think it draws the attention away from, um, where we can agree, we, we disagree in a lot of places, but there are places where we do agree.

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So the, the place where you're, the piece that you're talking about where you're cooperating with, um, and, and assenting to, uh, the grace that's been given to you, uh, are you saying that, that those works, that cooperation is, would not be required and necessary for salvation to actually be justified?

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Are you saying that the person does need to cooperate with, um... Yeah, you got it.

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Yeah, because yeah, you have to cooperate with it because we're, because of our human nature.

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So God, God created, God created us out of love with the freedom to choose him and his grace, he is giving us, he's offering us a gift and he desires that we freely choose that so as to greater manifest his glory.

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And so the cooperation has, is essential to one's righteousness. It's essential to one's holiness.

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It's essential to one's, um, ultimately their justification, um, uh, their freedom, their peace, their liberation.

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Uh, it's a free choice, uh, in accepting the gift that God is, is offering to, to, to mankind, or I can be,

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I can be politically correct and I can say humankind. Sorry. Yeah, no, you get, yeah, we'll go with mankind.

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So, so you, okay, so you do, you do need to, it's a free choice that you do need to cooperate with.

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And, and so how, and that's, that's the heart of what I'm trying to get to with my question is how is that free choice that a person needs to choose and cooperate with, how is that not a work that is also added to salvation and justification?

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Uh, I mean, it's, it certainly could be, it certainly could be a work. I mean, if I am, if God is offering me a gift and I am saying yes to that gift, um, that yes manifests.

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And so if I, if I'm, if I see, I don't know, uh, a woman going into an abortion mill about to go get an abortion and I, and I'm in me doing what

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I can to counsel that woman and get her to hopefully, you know, know that her baby is made in God's image and likeness, and she ought not do that.

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Um, that is me saying yes to the gift that God is offering me. So you can see it as a work.

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The, I think that what you're talking about, Jake, might be the initial kind of a sense. So God's offering you a gift.

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He's offering you grace. And you're saying, I say yes, intellectually to it. Um, but, uh, does that make sense?

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I kind of forgot your question a little bit, but I would say that does it? Yeah. Yeah. And I'm saying the good work.

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So stopping someone going into abortion mill, that's a very good work. I think it's a good, that's a good example. That's tangible.

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You can grasp onto that. So stopping the woman from going to the abortion mill, it's a good work. Um, you're saying that that is a kind of good work as an example, not the only one, but as an example, that would be, uh, an example of a person cooperating with the grace they received that together with the grace they've received at their baptism will ultimately aid in getting them to final salvation.

22:48

Yes. Yeah. And it would aid to their, to their, uh, human flourishing, their joy, their peace, their liberation, their freedom here on earth and, uh, in its fulfillment and its completion, uh, in the beatific vision.

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Um, yeah, absolutely. And the abortion example, it, um, it's, that's part of the natural law knowing that it's wrong to kill a human being.

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And so it's not a perfect example, but yeah, it is. Uh, I think, I think it works because, um, you know, it's a spiritual work of mercy,

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I think, to go and, um, you know, share the gospel in that way to that, that person, uh, let's, let's keep rolling here.

23:22

Tell, let's talk a little bit about mortal sin. Um, because this is a distinction here.

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Protestants, I would reject the idea of the difference between venial and mortal sin, the Catholic position, a council of Trent, that's, that's outlined the difference between venial sins.

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They're classified as light and daily sins. Uh, but mortal sins are different. So tell us a little bit about that.

23:44

Uh, let's say somebody is, is baptized as the, when they're an infant, uh, they receive the righteousness of God infused into their, into their heart.

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Um, they're, they're going along through their life. They're cooperating with the grace they've been given, but then they commit a mortal sin.

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What, what happens there? What's, what's going on there when you commit a mortal sin? Done for, KO, you're gone.

24:08

Um, yeah, no, I mean, I don't think you're wrong. No, I don't either. I mean, that's pretty much what it is.

24:14

Um, but, um, so I mean the, let's see, how's the easiest way to explain this? Uh, yeah, venial sin, baby sin, and then a mortal sin, you have freely chosen to cut yourself off from God.

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And so there is no longer any charity in your soul, uh, because you have willingly turned your back and done something that you know is wrong.

24:38

It's a grave matter. So there are three conditions for mortal sin. And, uh, I hope I don't screw this up. But it's grave matter.

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You get full consent. Um, and, uh, I am forgetting and yet full, full knowledgeable consent and it's grave matter.

24:51

So abortion, just to use that example, or, you know, today, you know, the whole idea of, um, you know, uh, genital mutilation and, uh, castration, things like that,

25:01

I mean, that's, that's a, that's a grave matter, I think that everybody, especially your viewers, because of how involved you guys are on the culture war, you know, how serious that stuff is.

25:09

So that's like what we would understand as grave matter. Um, that's grave matter. And you give, you have full knowledge of what you're doing.

25:15

Um, and you give full consent, so you're not forced to do it. Um, and so like, that would be a mortal sin.

25:21

I know it's basically it's simplified for your viewers. It's saying, um, God, I know that you don't want me to do this.

25:29

I know that you don't want me to do this, but I'm going to do it anyways, um, because I want to. It's, uh, this is what, uh,

25:36

Satan, this is who Satan is. This is the essence of him. It's pride. It's pride manifested. In a specific act.

25:43

Um, and then, and, and that, that, and that commission of a mortal sin that it's called mortal because it kills the justification, the state of justification that you were in.

25:57

And if you were to die in a state after committing mortal sin and you had not, which

26:04

I want to have you explain that, but if you were to die in a state of mortal sin, what happens?

26:11

Done for KO. So you're going to hell. The, uh, the understanding of, okay.

26:18

So yeah, but you're correct. Mortal sin, um, mortal sin, it cuts the charity off between you and God. You have willingly chosen to do your own will over his.

26:27

And yeah, if you die in that state, if you die in that state, the teaching is that you go to hell. Um, uh, it's oftentimes impossible to know like the church, the closest the church has come to declaring.

26:41

And this is my own sort of opinion on this. Um, and this is straight out of scripture. And maybe you guys agree with it too, is our

26:48

Lord's, uh, what our Lord says about Judas. Um, it'd be better if you hadn't been born and he obviously committed suicide.

26:54

So it's like, well, you know, that's probably the closest it gets to the church declaring somebody, um, in hell.

27:00

Uh, the teaching is, I think it's pretty clear. Matthew, uh, chapter seven, I think it's 13 straight in the narrow way.

27:06

Um, I'm not one to go around saying that hell is empty. I think that's stupid. I think that's, that's heretical.

27:13

Um, uh, but yeah, if you die in a state of mortal sin, uh, you go to hell. Um, there's really no way for like you were for us, if you have a friend who dies or like your relative dies, you don't really, you don't know what state they're in, you can base that judgment on their actions and kind of who they were as a person and whatnot, but you don't know, that's why it's, you know,

27:36

I roll my eyes when, uh, Catholics or, you know, uh, Protestants when their friends die and they just automatically declare them in heaven, it's like, well, how do you know that?

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Um, but yeah, you, you explained mortal sin correctly. Yeah. If you die in that state, uh, you go to hell, but it's, um, the way that I understand that question is that it's a little bit, um, how do

27:57

I explain it? Um, it's just not something that you can, that you can know with an individual. Um, but, but yeah, it kills, it kills the connection you have with God here on earth because you have chosen, uh, to do something, do something grave against his will with full knowledge and full consent.

28:15

Okay. Um, so that it kills the connection. You die. If you die in that state, you go to hell.

28:21

Your sin, therefore, even, even if you were at your baptism, uh, you know, have the righteousness of God infused in your heart, you commit the mortal sin.

28:30

You die, you go to hell. Dying and going to hell, that means that God has counted your sin as belonging to you, meaning you have to pay for the sin that you committed, the mortal sin you committed, and that's why it results in you going to hell.

28:44

So I, my question here for you is how, how do you reconcile that idea with what we see, uh, the apostle

28:51

Paul teaching in Romans chapter four, we would be totally bringing shame upon ourselves if we did not bring up Romans chapter four, talking about justification.

29:01

Um, how, how do you reconcile that? Uh, starting in verse six in Romans four, it says, just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom

29:09

God counts righteousness apart from works. And then he quotes Psalm 32. He says, blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven and whose sins are covered.

29:19

Blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin. So let me key in on verse eight there.

29:26

Blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin. Who would you say in the

29:33

Catholic understanding is that blessed man? Who's the blessed man that does not have any sin counted to him?

29:41

Yeah, I would say that that is the man who is cooperating with God's grace. That is the man in the Catholic term here would be who is living in a state of grace, who lives and dies in a state of grace.

29:51

Um, and so the Catholic teaching there, you die in a state of grace. Um, not only do you have a peace, if you're in a state of grace, not only do you have peace and freedom and liberation here in this, uh, world and you're advancing, uh, and building

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God's kingdom here on earth as it is in heaven, but you would be admitted to, uh, the kingdom of God, uh, in heaven, uh, which is just the be a civic vision.

30:14

You'd be seeing God face to face, um, making it to heaven, so to speak. Um, yeah.

30:21

Can, can someone in a state of grace commit a venial sin? Yeah. Oh yeah.

30:28

And how does that work with venial sins? Is a venial sin counted to a person and then they would have to then go through some sort of, um,

30:37

I don't know, you have to, you have to use the right terminology for your formula, but, but would somebody have to go through some sort of,

30:43

I don't know if it's a sacrament, if it's confession, what it is in order to, uh, be cleansed of the venial sin?

30:51

Yeah. So, so venial, venial sin, um, as I, uh, in a very academic way defined earlier is a baby sin, um, but, uh, venial sin, it separates you from God, but it does not cut off the relationship is the best way that I can explain that, which is what mortal sin does.

31:12

Uh, so there's a separation taking place and the Catholic teaching here is that habitual venial sin is not good because it leads to mortal sin.

31:20

Um, uh, and there's a bunch of examples that, um, I think are, uh, applicable there. Um, but so venial sin, it's, uh, it, it separates you from God, um, and it can lead to mortal sin eventually.

31:33

Um, and you don't want to, I mean, venial sin, it is a, it is a turning away from God. It is doing, it is doing something wrong.

31:39

It's just on a small degree. Um, uh, and so that the sacraments would absolutely, they would, they would like Holy communion.

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When you go up to, when you go receive Holy communion with the proper disposition, having a broken spirit and a contrite heart, and you go up and receive, uh,

31:55

Jesus Christ, body, blood, soul, and divinity, venial sin is washed away, um, at that moment.

32:01

Um, and the same thing can happen. Uh, if you, you know, if you go to a sacramental confession, um, but, uh, yeah, so the, the distinctions that you're making about venial mortal sin are correct.

32:12

It's, um, uh, but maybe the, what can help us out in our further conversation would be the venial sin.

32:18

It, uh, it does separate you from God and it's not good. It's not something that you want to do. I don't want to, um, disobey

32:24

God. Um, I want to say yes to him. I want to do his will no matter what, over and above everything else.

32:31

Um, despite my reputation or what people think of me, I just want to say yes to God. And that's, that's the proper disposition.

32:37

Um, but the distinctions you're making are, I think they're good. Yeah. So someone who commits, uh,

32:43

I'm sorry, someone who is in a state of grace, uh, let's say they'd go their whole life. They don't commit a mortal sin.

32:49

Um, and, and, and yet they do commit a venial, they do commit venial sins. You would need to go partake, for example, in holy communion in order to.

32:58

Oh, no, no, no. Yeah, no. I mean, it's a, it's a good idea to go to, you know, go to, uh, uh, receive the

33:05

Eucharist and, and go to confession and whatnot, but a venial sins do not, uh, uh, do not, uh, bar somebody from, uh, from heaven.

33:15

Uh, and they don't bar somebody from, you know, a certain degree of peace and liberation of freedom here in this world.

33:21

Um, only mortal sin, mortal sin is what bars you from heaven, so to speak. And then, uh, it, it, it leads to misery here in this world as well.

33:30

So are, yeah, yeah, yeah. So can a person, does a person have their venial sin credited to their account, counted to them that they must then deal with through, to have cleansed in some way?

33:44

Meaning if I can, if I commit a mortal sin, is it on me to then take the necessary steps, which through the

33:53

Catholic church is available to me? Is it on me to make sure that those are cleansed and those go away? Yeah.

34:00

And that's, that's a super good question. Um, and that is where, so that's where you would need, that's where like, like repentance and conversion come into the picture and even repentance and conversion.

34:12

It's not, um, so it wouldn't be proper to say it as you said, where it's on. I am the one who is going and, and, and, uh,

34:21

I'm running towards the reconciliation with God. The Catholic teaching on this, um, it's, it's very similar to faith.

34:29

Authentic conversion or true repentance. It's, it's actually, it's a, it's a gift. And so it's something that God, um, does to you and kind of pushes you towards, um, that reconciliation.

34:40

Um, so true repentance, true conversion, it's first and foremost. Um, it's, it's a gift of God to recognize, okay,

34:48

I have been selfish. I've been prideful. I, um, I chose my will over God's.

34:53

It's a grace to know that, to recognize that. And then, um, and then, yeah, the cooperation is when you, you know, you take the necessary steps, you go to, um, you know, it's smart to, um, if you've got the proper disposition to go to, go to confession,

35:07

I love you, Jesus. I'm sorry for what I did. And, um, uh, and seek that reconciliation and use the, the sacraments, um, for what they're, what they're, what they're meant for, which is conversion, reconciliation, and ultimately building

35:20

God's kingdom here on earth as it is in heaven. Okay. So you would say, and going back to my question here,

35:26

Romans 4, 8, you would say that the blessed man is the person who goes through their entire life, not committing a mortal sin and dies in a state of grace.

35:40

Yeah. I mean, I know I'm wording it a certain way, but I want to get, get, I want to view it in light of what we talked about with mortal sin.

35:45

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I think that, um, and the, and the only reason I know, I know you're, you're breaking it down like that, uh, for a specific reason, because you're making distinctions.

35:53

The only reason I don't like the way it's broken down is because this is typically how Catholics see it. And that's why their, their life is typically it's, it's all about, it's all, it's, it's very negative in the sense that it's all about me not doing these things.

36:05

It's all about me being scared of doing this or scared of doing that. Um, and it's not about the active participation in the kingdom of God here on earth, and it's not about building and creating, uh, for the sake of God and his greater manifest glory.

36:19

So it's, uh, the negative way that you, you, you broke that down, down is correct. Um, and that's, uh, that's typically, um, and I don't think it's a good thing to break it down like that.

36:29

Um, but that's typically how Catholics, um, how Catholics do it. But, um, yeah, what you said, I think that's, that's, it, uh, it makes, it makes sense.

36:38

Um, but I, and I would add, um, cause I'm trying to just say it one more time because I want to make sure

36:44

I'm, I'm, I'm understanding you correctly. Just say the one, what you said before I started. I want to find out who the blessed man of Romans four verse eight is.

36:53

And the reason that this is such a big deal to me is because what does the text say?

36:58

It says, blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin. So this is someone who has not had their sin counted to them or credited to them, or some translations say imputed to them.

37:12

Meaning God has looked upon this person and said, I am not going to credit your sin to your account.

37:19

I'm not going to count you as sinful. And in my understanding of the Catholic position, your sins are credited to your account.

37:28

Now, of course they may not be for eternity, but they are credited to your account with mortal sin.

37:35

If I commit a mortal sin, I must, I, and I die. I go to hell meeting. I've have to now pay for that sin.

37:41

And then also a venial sin. If I commit a venial sin, that's something that I also, and again,

37:47

I'm not saying that it's workspace totally, but a venial sin is also credited to my account, and I must work through the sacramental system in order to have that venial sin washed away from me.

37:59

So that's the, that's the point of tension that I'm trying to, I'm trying to uncover here is Romans four,

38:05

Paul's talking about how Abraham was justified. He was justified before he got circumcised.

38:10

He, God counted him as righteous. He believed God and was credited to him as righteousness. Well, in Romans four, eight, we see

38:17

David affirming that blessed is the man against whom the Lord does not count iniquity. And in Catholicism, again, correct me if I'm wrong, your iniquity is counted to you, and there's a sacramental system in place in order to have those dealt with.

38:33

And that's the tension that I'm trying to point out and why I ask you who, in your view, is that blessed man?

38:40

I would say it's anyone who has faith in Christ and put a period at the end of the sentence. Yeah, I'd put the,

38:47

I'd put the period there too. Anybody who has authentic faith in Jesus Christ, our

38:52

Lord and Savior, is at peace. Is at as, I mean, that's as much peace as you can get here in this world is, is placing your faith, your trust, you're pledging your full and complete allegiance to Christ and his kingdom.

39:07

That is what authentic peace is. And that's what, that's what God offers us. And so I would,

39:14

I'd put a period there too. Obviously we don't, where we would part as you've broken down pretty, pretty well is that, say

39:23

I am somebody who has just had a conversion, thanks be to God. And I am baptized and I'm received in the church and I'm participating in all the sacraments and, and whatnot.

39:34

And five years down the road, I decide to start doing my own thing.

39:40

And I, you know, get a girl pregnant and take her to an abortion mill or something like that.

39:47

That would obviously be a mortal sin. That's me, that's me taking the gift that I got, that I was blessed with and throwing it in the trash is the kind of best way that I can, that I can put it.

39:58

But to agree with your, with your statement earlier, yeah, I'd put a period at the end of that statement too.

40:05

And then we can continue to parse through kind of what, what faith means. But, but, but I agree for the most part where you said it's, yeah, it's good.

40:12

I want to, I have another, I had another question. I'm going to skip over it and go to the last one. Cause I want to give you time to ask me things.

40:21

I've like got you on the hot seat the whole time, but I do want to, I do want to ask this last question. I think it's probably one of the most important questions.

40:31

So I want to make sure that I give you time to, to work through this. A really important text when we talk about the idea of justification.

40:40

Again, Romans chapter four, Romans chapter four comes at a context. So Romans one through three,

40:46

Paul's talking about the entire condemnation of humanity because of their sin. And then he presents the gospel in chapter, in verses 21 through 31 of Romans chapter three, and then chapter four is like exhibit

40:57

A, Abraham. Abraham is the example of someone who has been counted righteous because of his faith, because of his belief in, in God.

41:09

And we know now he was looking forward to the cross, to Christ. He builds out this argument in chapter four and then

41:15

Romans chapter five, verse one, it says, therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our

41:25

Lord Jesus Christ. Another text that I would just supplement, that's kind of the anchor text I want to share with you.

41:31

And then as a supplement, first John chapter five, verse 13, the apostle

41:37

John, he says, I write these things to you who believe in the name of the son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.

41:46

We can go to Ephesians one and talk about the promised seal of the Holy spirit on and on. But the point I'm getting at here is that someone who has been justified by faith has peace with God.

41:57

Somebody who's believed in the name of the son of God knows that he or she has eternal life.

42:04

Um, earlier in the conversation here, you had, had used a couple of phrases. Like we, we can't, we can't know for sure.

42:12

Like we can, we can look at our lives and we can look at the evidence, but we can't know for sure whether or not we have eternal life, it would be impossible to know, um, you use the analogy in previous conversations we've had of like a football game,

42:24

I can prepare well and lift and train and study the film. But at the end of the day, I don't know if I'm going to win the game or not.

42:31

When I look at scripture, I can see that there's peace with God, that Jesus knows his sheep, he knows who they are.

42:38

Um, and then also we can know that we have eternal life if we believe in the name of the son of God.

42:44

So in the Roman Catholic understanding, somebody can be justified and for example, commit a mortal sin, lose their justification, and then if they go through the sacrament of penance, regain the justification, or you can commit the mortal sin and die and go to hell and lose your justification.

43:02

So given that understanding of what we see here in scripture, how can you, how can a

43:08

Roman Catholic have peace, true shalom, true peace with God? Yeah, and that's a, it's a super good question.

43:16

Um, and I think the reason that I like the question is because it has everything to do with the here and now, um, meaning that our life has a purpose and it's not just about delayed gratification.

43:28

Like it's not just about getting to heaven. That's not the end all be all of existence.

43:33

The end all be all of existence, uh, I would say has something to do with, um, God's kingdom on earth manifesting as it does in, uh, in heaven.

43:43

And so the best way that I can answer this is that peace has everything to do with reality. Peace has everything to do with embracing and accepting, uh, reality.

43:53

Um, and, uh, knowledge of your salvation. Um, like I said earlier, uh, that is something that you can only know for sure when you're, when you're judged, when you either hear from, uh, from God, well done my good and faithful servant, or, you know, uh, gone with you, uh, where there's weeping and gnashing of teeth.

44:12

Um, uh, so that's the reality is that you can, you only, you will only know that for sure when you're being judged.

44:17

And so peace, uh, the way that I see it has nothing to do with, um, uh, convincing myself that, um, that I am safe, that I'm, I'm good to go.

44:28

That like, when I die, I am going to be running around with my friends. Um, uh, flying around, but I, I spent a lot of time thinking about what the beatific vision will be like, and that kind of gives me motivation sometimes.

44:42

But, uh, but so true peace wouldn't be, um, uh, true peace, um, has to do with embracing the tough reality that you can't know for sure.

44:53

And so true peace has everything to do with saying yes to God in the given moment. Um, and obviously we don't, we don't agree, uh, uh, that, uh, uh, about the knowledge versus the confidence of your salvation.

45:05

And so I'm saying that true peace would be accepting and embracing that tough reality that I can't know for sure that, that, that, that there's a level of uncertainty and that's where, you know, that's where anxiety and stress come from is, is, is, is, is uncertainty and, um, and not knowing for sure about something, but peace would be kind of the, uh, the remedy in the sense that you, you embrace the reality that there is uncertain, you embrace the reality, the truth that, um, that maybe

45:33

I won't persevere that maybe I'll, maybe I will, that I'll turn away. And that's why you are brought to your knees every day is because you have to rely on God.

45:42

If that is a reality that I might not persevere, then you're forced on your knees and you're forced to be dependent upon our creator, the one who created us and who loves us and desires, um, our own, our good and his, his greater manifest glory.

45:57

Um, and, uh, so that would be maybe the way that I, that I would put it, but it's a great question. The, the, the idea of peace is always, it's a, it's a super good question.

46:05

I appreciate you walking through that, um, and the extensive answer to, I think it is deserving of that level of explanation.

46:13

Um, would you say, you mentioned one thing I want to come back to, you said you, this is only something you can know.

46:20

We talk about final salvation. This is only something you can know when you're judged. Would you say that Paul and John in the two texts that I gave here, were they speaking to people who are already judged?

46:34

Um, I'd have to read, I'd have to read the quotes again. Um, cause I forget exactly what they, what they are, but no,

46:40

I think that, I think that scripture is very clear that there are tons of examples, especially in St.

46:45

Paul, where somebody has been saved past tense, but there are tons of examples where somebody is, where there is a process, somebody is being saved and there are tons of examples of salvation being something that is, that is a, that is a place in the, in the future tense.

47:01

And so, um, I don't, I don't know. I'd have to, I'd have to read the quotes again, but, um, uh, the

47:06

Catholic understanding is that it's, it's past present future. It's not just past as, um, like obviously that's,

47:13

I think that's your position. Yeah. And that would, that would be just one point of concern. And for further consideration that I'm thinking through as I'm, as we're talking about this is, um,

47:23

Paul and John, they're writing to, you know, Paul is writing to believers in Rome. Uh, John is writing to, uh, various believers and these are people who are on the road.

47:34

They are, they are alive and they are continuing on in their faith, uh, on earth.

47:42

And that's, and Paul is saying, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God, it's something that we have right now.

47:50

Um, and then John saying, I'm writing to you who believe in the name of the son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.

47:57

So that's my, that's my point of concern is how can you be a person? Cause you were saying like, you may fall away and there's that,

48:05

I don't know the right word, but, but angst that you feel. And yes, we both agree. Like our need for dependence on God is paramount, uh, but there's still that kind of angst and that cloud over you of like, what if I am someone who doesn't persevere until the end?

48:21

Um, how can you, how can you be in that state of mind and also have peace at the same time? That's my, that's my question to you.

48:28

Yeah. Yeah. And I think that the answer would just be, um, it, it's just trusting

48:35

God. And I don't mean to be like, uh, um, short, but like, you just trust in God.

48:40

So anxiety, fear, um, worry, and it's such a crazy thing.

48:45

Our Lord says over and over, he says, don't worry. Don't be afraid. It's like, well, how do I do that? Like, you know, that's just, that's tough.

48:51

It's like, what? Um, and, um, uh, but so it's absolute trust and it's absolute trust in God.

48:57

And, um, to bring up maybe a little bit more scripture, um, like when St. Paul talks to his speaking, he's writing to the

49:04

Corinthians, for example. And it's not just Corinthians. He's writing the Romans. He's writing to the Galatians and whatnot.

49:10

Um, his famous, um, uh, or what the left would view as his infamous list of sins.

49:15

To your point, he's writing to people, um, who were baptized. He's writing to, he's writing to a church, the

49:21

Corinthian church. He's writing to people who are, as you said, on the road, they are, they are. And he's warning them because, and this is something like a scripture that I would go to that, um, hopefully, uh, makes my position look good.

49:35

Um, is that he's warning, he's warning them. He's warning them of, uh, of, of, of grave sins.

49:41

He's homosexuality, uh, idolatry. He's warning them. And they are people who have been baptized. He's speaking to the church.

49:47

He's speaking to practicing Christians who are going out and, uh, they're, they're on the road, as you said. And so that's something

49:52

I, I look at that. And I think that, um, who know a lot better than me, um, look at that.

49:58

And, and they say, well, there's, there's something going on there. And I think that has something to do with what's, what he says about, um, fighting the good fight till the very, till the very end.

50:06

And I think that's the point that, that I'm trying to make, but, um, to answer your first question, it's just trusting God because the anxiety, that's like everybody's biggest question.

50:14

It's like, how do you not worry? How do you, how do you not have anxiety? How do you not, because these are, and the reason

50:20

I love talking to you is because these are the most important questions in the world, like people who don't have an interest in, in theology or, which is just the study of God.

50:27

Um, it's just like, it's a little bit weird to me because these are the most important questions in the world and, and everybody's wondering about them, even if they act like they don't care.

50:36

Um, and, uh, but it just trusting God would be, would be the simple answer that I think that we can, um, you know,

50:41

I think we, we agree on that, but yeah. Um, I want to, I want to give some room here,

50:47

Trey. I've been like putting you in the hot seat now for a while. What, what, so I'm out of the hot seat.

50:53

Yeah. Now I'm in the hot seat. What, what questions do you have? I appreciate you walking me through those, man.

50:58

What questions do you have for me? Um, to make me uncomfortable.

51:05

Yeah. Oh, that's a great question. Yeah. I'm excited about this. I hope I don't screw it up. I've got like the golden opportunity here.

51:13

Um, no, I I'm really interested. I'm being selfish. Cause I'm like, uh, uh, but I think it's a good question.

51:19

What is, um, and we talked about this before the show a little bit. Um, uh, what is, um, your main critique when you see, um, uh, the way, and I know that you guys are in the culture war, so you see a lot of the stuff that Catholics do, like, what is something that Catholics do not necessarily like, um, uh, like a teaching, uh, or, or a dogma or a doctrine, but what are, what is something that Catholics do the way that they live their, their, their faith out or their, you know, their, their lack of faith out that like just grinds your gears and kind of pushes you away because obviously

51:54

I want you to be Catholic. I want you to come into the church. I want, um, I want everybody to be Catholic. Um, but there are things that we do.

52:02

We kind of shoot ourselves in the foot by the way that we're acting. And our Lord says, you know them by their fruits. So what's something that Catholics do?

52:08

Um, if you've seen it, uh, that, uh, kind of makes you say, oh yeah, that's why

52:13

I'm not Catholic. This is a, this is a rotten fruit of their, of their heretical teachings or whatever it may be.

52:19

Does that make sense? Yeah. Well, it is a good question. And lest I get overly pragmatic because any, anything that I offer as an answer to that, the canon could be pointed, turned around and pointed at, uh, the

52:35

Protestants as well. And specifically the camp I'm in, the reform camp, like that's anything

52:41

I say like, oh, they're hypocritical. Oh, okay. Well, Protestants are hypocritical. You know, like, and we could, we could go down a continued, uh, slippery slope there, uh, because every, there are, no matter what, what camp you find yourself in, uh, there'll be hypocrites.

52:57

There'll be people who don't, uh, if they say they believe something, but they don't actually believe it, they're nominal. They're apathetic.

53:03

Like you said, they don't care about these questions of eternity. Um, which I think are paramount to talk about, um, particularly people who are coming up, younger generations.

53:12

Like we need people to care about this stuff. One of the things that concerns me, and I would actually love to hear your thoughts on this.

53:19

Um, one of the things that's, that's most concerning to me, and we're not, this isn't a show about the, about the

53:25

Pope, but I'm going to bring up the Pope. Um, I, I see teaching coming from Francis that when

53:35

I look back at what historically the Catholic church has taught, seems to not be in alignment with what

53:41

Francis is currently trying to push. And that to me is a huge point of, like, there's a big red flag going up right there when

53:49

I see that. We could talk about the papacy, like specifically at a different time. I'd love to have you back on, but what

53:56

I, what I mean in this example is what the teaching officially coming from the magisterium is right now in 2024 versus what the church has, uh, historically taught.

54:07

So one example here, you can look at the catechism of the council of Trent and read the official understanding on capital punishment, for example, that Romans 13 capital punishment is

54:19

God has given the sword to, that the state should wield as a form of justice to punish the evildoer,

54:25

I would 100 % agree with that, but then we have, uh, you know, the Pope in 2022 starting up a prayer initiative to, uh, end capital punishment saying that it's inhumane.

54:37

And I've heard, uh, Trent Horn just recently, he debated James White, uh, and he brought up the idea of capital punishment and capital punishment got brought up and Trent's response was to say, well, on social issues, the church,

54:50

Catholic church has become narrower and narrower. So what Francis is teaching now is just a narrower interpretation of what the church has historically taught.

54:59

So it's not actually different. It's just narrower. And I hear that and I say, no, no, no, that's completely different.

55:05

Capital punishment is something that can be righteous and good. And then we have Francis saying it's not righteous and good.

55:10

That's not narrower. That's I'm going north and now I'm going south, if that makes sense.

55:16

So that would, that's what stands out to me as a long answer to your question. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you're going to get me in trouble with a lot of Catholics, um, answering, doing my best to answer, answer questions about, uh, about the

55:30

Pope. Um, uh, how do I answer this? Um, cause it, every question about the

55:36

Pope is a question about authority. That's what it is. So you have, you have, you have, um, uh,

55:42

Catholics and I, you know, it's hard to call them Catholic, but you know, the ones that are more left leaning and they hear the things that he's saying and they get excited.

55:50

Um, uh, uh, depending on what it is and they interpret it in the way they want to, to push their agenda to maybe say that, um, uh, you know, homosexuality should be cool.

56:01

Um, and then you have people on the right who, uh, take what he says, uh, to prove their point that, uh, maybe

56:08

Pope Francis isn't the real Pope or, um, prove their point that, um, uh, or whatever it may be.

56:15

So everybody's got their own agendas, but the question is always about authority. And I would point people, I would challenge reviewers, um, read

56:22

Saint now he's now a Saint, Saint Cardinal John Henry Newman, who wrote extensively on conscience and so content, and this is what

56:31

Catholics don't know. And this is what I believe a lot of Catholics don't know. Conscience or rightly formed conscience is the highest authority.

56:39

A rightly formed conscience is, is the reason it is so, uh, has supreme authority as Newman says, is because that is perceived to be the voice of God.

56:48

Um, and, and meaning that nobody can tell me to do something that I do not believe, um, uh, is in accord with, uh, with, with God's design with, with what he's telling me to do.

56:57

Um, and he actually wrote, um, it's a letter to the Duke of Norfolk that can do justice to this question of, um, uh, papal, uh, statements and things like that.

57:08

And the other question is, and this is like a whole nother conversation is, um, is what he's saying magisterial is what he's saying binding on the consciences of the faithful.

57:18

Um, and that's something that gets completely misunderstood. Um, it doesn't happen a lot when, uh,

57:25

Pope Francis is speaking from the chair. Meaning he's saying something that is binding on our consciences.

57:30

We have to obey it. Um, and the church is. There's a million problems with, um, uh, with understanding of conscience, but at the end of the day, the church would never allow it, it's impossible for the

57:42

Pope to speak from the chair, uh, with that authoritative voice and tell people to do something against God's natural or divine law, um, it's impossible.

57:52

Um, but I would, I don't know. I feel like I'm, I'm just handing this off to, uh, Cardinal John Henry Newman, but just look him up and he'll do a better job answering, uh, the question.

58:02

No, I, and I'd love to, I'd love to get again, but maybe we can have you back on at some point. I'd love to get into that.

58:08

What you talked about the rightly formed conscience being the highest authority because it's in, it's in accordance with what

58:13

God is, has, um, with how God wants me to live, I would ask the question, how do we know how

58:19

God wants us to live? And that, and now we're going to get into sometimes these discussions just, uh, not devolve, but they kind of devolve into a discussion on authority because that's another huge difference that, and we've talked about this before the church versus sacred tradition, the church and scripture versus I would just say scripture, so, so the authority piece is huge.

58:42

Um, but anyway, that's my, that would be my answer to your question. I want to also give room to, if there's, if there's another question, if there's anything else that you're wanting to ask me.

58:53

Well, yeah. And that, and that's super good to know, um, that the

58:58

Pope is like the most popular man in the world. So it's like impossible to ignore what he's saying. And, um, I think it is,

59:04

I think it is, um, kind of like a, uh, a net negative that, uh, Popes are the most popular people in the world when

59:11

Catholics used to not even know who the Pope was. And that's the age of social media. And that's the age of everything that he says or whoever says is just a, it's a headline and then, and then people just say whatever they want about it and act like, and then, you know, they take things out of context and I think that does happen to Pope Francis quite a bit.

59:30

I think that he does say things that are actually, he said a lot of things that are pretty solid. Um, he said things that, um, are not magisterial that I just don't agree with, but people take what he says.

59:40

And this happens on the right a lot. This is what, uh, my, my background, I've worked almost five years in Catholic media and, um, like we were doing a lot of this, um, taking what he says and just like putting our own, our own, um, interpretation on it, that's not based in reality, it's not based on what he actually said and it happens all the time, but, um, maybe another question.

01:00:01

And it's good to know that like you, you're, you're, you're, you're not Catholic, but you're seeing what Pope Francis is doing and saying, and you're like, okay, well, hold up.

01:00:08

Like this has a big effect on Catholics and non Catholics. Um, yeah, yeah.

01:00:14

You're in the hot seat still. So hang on, let me ask you, um, I don't know what would be, um, I don't want to be boring, but, okay, no,

01:00:20

I will ask this. What is the Protestant, um, what is the mission of the church according to, um, like, uh,

01:00:28

Protestantism or, or, um, what, uh, what you ascribe to, like, what is the, what's the mission of the church?

01:00:34

Yeah, I would say the mission of the church is it's Matthew 28 verses 18 through 20. It's the great commission.

01:00:40

Christ is going to ascend into heaven and he charges disciples saying, um, go into all the world, you know, all authority and heaven on earth given to me, go in the world, make disciples, baptize name of the father, son,

01:00:53

Holy spirit, teach them to observe all that I've commanded. That's, that's what the church was commissioned to do in the first century.

01:00:59

That's what the church should be doing now and has been doing. That's yeah.

01:01:05

And it's, and it's so positive. Like, dude, you're giving a better definition of the church's mission.

01:01:10

Then I would say like 90 % of Catholics, because it's positive. It's not about, it's not about, and this is the, what

01:01:17

I would say is the typical Catholic mindset, especially in like more traditional circles. Um, uh, and these are kind of the circles that I've in my past five or six years,

01:01:26

I've been in where the church has been turned into and their own subjective understanding of it.

01:01:31

It's this, it's this thing that you go to, you go to, you go to mass on Sunday to feel good about yourself. You go to mass on Sunday to feel comfort.

01:01:38

You receive the sacraments because you want comfort. You want to feel good. And it's not, it's not as in St.

01:01:44

John Paul, the second has got a great quote. He says, the church is not an end unto herself. She's ordered towards the kingdom of God.

01:01:50

And so all of the sacraments, the, the, the life and breath of the church is ordered towards something positive.

01:01:55

It's ordered towards creating it's ordered towards building. It's the great commission that you just said. Um, and this is like, this is everything.

01:02:03

This is, this is what gives our human existence meaning. This is what human flourishing is. This is what sanctification is.

01:02:09

Um, to give a shout out to the, to the church in the East. This is what divinization is, is what I would say. Um, but it's positive and I love your response to that.

01:02:17

Um, and I think that maybe the like Catholics, they, when you live the faith out and it's just pure based, it's all about me staying in state of grace.

01:02:25

It's all about me, not sinning. It's all about me. Um, you know, uh, just listening to what the priest says and blindly obeying what he says, it's like, that's not the thing.

01:02:34

And that's actually not what the church teaches by any means. Um, and so it's a, it's a, it's a good answer.

01:02:39

And it's like, that's a, I would call that a Catholic answer, but, um, because it's positive, it's not negative.

01:02:46

Well, and I would say too, in response here is I don't think the mission of God is negative in any sense of the word.

01:02:55

I mean, I don't think what, what Christ has commissioned his disciples to do, what we should be doing right now is negative whatsoever.

01:03:02

Uh, God is gracious and merciful. He's steadfast in his love. But, but we've, we've like distorted and twisted, um, positivity to mean toleration in our day.

01:03:14

And that's not, those two terms aren't, aren't the same. Um, God is just, and he hates sin, but hating sin is a positive thing.

01:03:23

Like you and I should both hate what is evil and love what is good. That's what scripture tells us. And we just know our, our

01:03:29

God has written his law in our hearts. We know that. Um, but I also know that truth is, uh, truth is, is just as important.

01:03:39

So, um, that's why we're talking today about justification and about what the, what the gospel is and how somebody is made right with, and, you know, given peace with God is because, uh, the gospel, we need to get that right.

01:03:51

Uh, and then from there we, we start moving forward. So, so, and that's why I want to have you on and we're doing this back and forth is because we need to make sure that that's correct.

01:04:02

Paul says in Galatians one, he's like, even if we, meaning we like we, the apostles or, or even an angel preached to you a gospel contrary to the one that you received, uh, let him be anathema.

01:04:12

It pronounces a curse upon people who get the gospel wrong. And that's why I think it's so important to have these kinds of conversations is because there have been, yeah, there've been joint.

01:04:22

Uh, statements, declaration of faith. There's ECT one and ECT two, even with evangelicals and Catholics.

01:04:27

However, I would say when we talk about peace with God and justification, the historic

01:04:34

Roman Catholic teaching, the historic Protestant understanding, those two are different answers.

01:04:39

If, if somebody asks Trey, Trey, how can I be saved? Your answer is going to be fundamentally different than mine.

01:04:45

And, and, and, and that's why I want to have you on and talk with you is because like you mentioned earlier, like I want

01:04:51

Jake, I want you to be Catholic. Well, I want you to, to know justification by faith and believe and trust that gospel, uh, the gospel taught by the apostles, uh, because that's the way to peace with God and we've talked enough.

01:05:05

We're like, we, we love each other. We, we can say hard things and we're, and we're good, but that's the dividing line right there.

01:05:14

Um, but truth dividing is not a negative thing either. It's, it's going to divide. There's light and dark.

01:05:19

There's good and evil. There's truth and non -truth. But what is the truth and how do we grab hold of that? Um, and it's, and it's, it's, it's uncharitable and it's fake to act like there's not those real differences.

01:05:30

It's just fake and, um, uh, but yeah, uh, to your point about,

01:05:36

I love that your quote, you say, um, the mission of the church as it's not, it's not negative, it's like, yeah, well the word mission, the word mission is, is going forth, it is, it is pushing forward.

01:05:48

It's building, it's creating. And so, um, yeah, well, while a holy fear, a healthy fear is good.

01:05:54

A fear of the Lord is good. What does scripture say? Perfect love casts out all fear. Love is that chief passion of St.

01:06:01

Thomas Aquinas says, and that is something that is active. It's positive. And that's what the gospel is.

01:06:06

It's not about putting blinders on. It's not about, um, uh, mere safety and mere security.

01:06:12

It's about being willing to fall on your face for the love of God, uh, being willing to fail for the love of God.

01:06:20

Um, so I love that. It's a good quote that you should, uh, uh. All right, man.

01:06:25

But, uh, what, what, what else? I'll give you the, if you have another question or, or, or final, we'll do one more question and then we'll do final word here and wrap up.

01:06:36

Okay. Oh man. I just asked you anything. Um, ask me something hard, man.

01:06:42

Make, make me feel uncomfortable here. Okay. All right. Hang on. Okay. Did you, okay.

01:06:48

So did you know Martin Luther had a devotion to the blessed Virgin Mary? That he was devoted to?

01:06:58

He had a, he had a devotion, a devotion to the blessed Virgin Mary. So what does that mean? I don't even know what that means.

01:07:04

I don't know. I just read it on the internet. Okay. All right. Well then I would say, I would say,

01:07:10

I would say no. Well, go ahead. I have a response to this actually. I go say what you're going to say.

01:07:16

I was just going to, I was just going to say, you said, make me feel awkward. So I'm trying to come up with fun facts about Luther, but his mom, his mom, uh, refused to, uh, believe his, uh, what he was saying and she died, she died

01:07:28

Catholic. That's another like thing I read on the internet that I think is true. Yeah. Yeah.

01:07:33

Um, that, no, that's a good, I actually do want to speak to that a second, even though it's, it was kind of a joke and it was funny, uh, but, but that is another key point of difference.

01:07:44

I've actually heard this before in previous debates, um, with other people I was involved in. Uh, they'll say, well, did you know that Calvin X, Y, Z, or did you know that Luther X, Y, Z?

01:07:55

I mean, we could, we could go to Luther at the end of his life, man. And he says some, I mean, he says some brutal things about the

01:08:01

Jews. Like, I mean, I'm not, you know, like, yeah, it's that I'm not going to in any way approve of.

01:08:08

I mean, I would, that's, that's horrible. Some of the things he said, but the difference is, is that God can strike a straight blow with a crooked stick.

01:08:16

So Luther and all that he did during the Reformation, which by the way, I love one of the times we talked before.

01:08:23

I call it the Reformation. You call it the revolt. I thought that was hilarious. That's what you say. Um, um, but anyway, uh,

01:08:29

Luther being used by God in, uh, getting back to what the gospel is.

01:08:36

That doesn't mean that Luther is not a fallible man. So like you could go, dude, you could probably find a laundry list of stuff that Luther's done and said, and been involved with, and that we would both wince at, um, but, but what comes down to it is not the man, but what the doctrine is.

01:08:55

That's the important thing. Truth. Yeah, exactly. So anyway, I know that was kind of, you're making a joke, but I think that was, hopefully that's a helpful point.

01:09:05

Um, okay. Well, dude, I'm gonna give you the last word, man. Any final thoughts here before we wrap up? Oh, dang.

01:09:11

Okay. Um, well, okay. Well, yeah. Thank you for having me on. This is super fun. Um, uh, and, uh,

01:09:17

I want to give a shout out to, uh, I forget his name. The guy with the red beard. Um, I used to watch his, uh, pro -life, um, uh, uh, work when

01:09:27

I was in high school. What's his name? Durbin. Durbin. Jeff Durbin. Jeff Durbin. Okay. You tell, you tell him I said hi and tell him

01:09:33

I should memorize his arguments, uh, about why abortion is, um, uh, a horrible thing when

01:09:39

I was in high school. So you tell him I said hi, but just final thoughts is yeah. Thank you for having me on. And, um, uh,

01:09:45

I would encourage people to, uh, I mean, just books to read. Like I would read like Cardinal or St.

01:09:52

Cardinal John Henry Newman. I would read, um, he's probably the best person to read.

01:09:58

I think Pope Benedict does a good job. He's got some good writings out there. Um, and there's a book called, uh,

01:10:03

Crucial Christianity by Dr. G C Dilsaver. I think that's the best Catholic work of theology, um, out there right now.

01:10:10

I've written a couple of years ago and it kind of hits on the same, some similar points that I was trying to bring up, um, that hopefully, you know, clears up.

01:10:17

Uh, it does justice to the, uh, the way that Catholics live out the faith that, uh, sadly oftentimes pushes people away from, uh, from, from the church.

01:10:28

Uh, so yeah, just thanks, uh, shout out to Durbin and his beard and his pro -life work.

01:10:33

He's got awesome beard. And, uh, yeah. Well, I appreciate you, man. Uh, thank you truly Trey for coming on.

01:10:39

Uh, this is, this is in a way game for you coming on the show and talking with us and defending your position.

01:10:45

So I really appreciate you. And, um, I hope this has been a blessing to those of you tuning in and watching.

01:10:51

Uh, this has been a blessing to you as well. Uh, continue to, uh, be on the lookout for future episodes of Provoked.

01:10:57

Head to Apologia Studios, uh, check out what we got going on there. And I hope this has been an edifying conversation and really it helps you consider what do you believe?

01:11:05

How, what, what, what is your answer to how is a person saved? How can a person have peace with God? What, what is the truth?

01:11:11

Uh, we need to, to pursue that. So thank you so much. Uh, we'll catch you next time. Uh, have a great one.