Spiritual Warfare or Depression & Anxiety? (Special Guests Pastor Jeff & Amy Lewis) | PT S6 E3

Hey guys, thank you for listening to today's episode. We did just want to give a brief disclaimer and let you know that we will be discussing depression, anxiety, and suicide in this episode today.

So if you are not comfortable listening to this without your headphones, make sure to put those in.

Otherwise, if you have kids around, probably want to save this for later. Also, we wanted to include the suicide hotline number, which is done here.

And Pastor Jeff has actually given us his email to give out to you guys to share in case you have any questions for him or if you just want to talk to him.

So that will be included as well. And thanks again for watching. Welcome back everybody to the

Point Taken Christian podcast where we talk about stuff that we want to. That's our new slogan.

Today we have Brother Jeff Shipley over here. This is our beloved pastor over here.

Look into the camera Brother Jeff and say hi. And then over here we have one of our friends

Amy who is just going to be sharing her experience today. If you haven't seen the topic below, go read that before.

Otherwise, we're going to be talking about depression today. We have all had different experiences with anxiety and depression throughout our lives, but this podcast really came to be from one of our church members who's actually a friend of ours who posed a question.

And we kind of changed the question around because we don't know their exact circumstance, if you will.

So I'll just read it and then we'll kind of go from there. So am I under attack by the enemy or am

I just struggling and actually need help with medication? So like anxiety, depression type stuff.

And so we kind of posed that as should Christians... like what should

Christians do for depression? What is depression? Should they be medicated for it? You know, same things with anxiety.

We actually have a... we had a group for a long time, the S .A .D. group. What did that stand for?

Soldiers Against Depression. It was called the S .A

.D. group, Soldiers Against Depression, if you will. Saints Against Depression. It was

Anxiety and Depression, I think. Something like that. But it was a group at our church for other people to come and just get some help, whether it was having guidance.

Pastor was involved in that ministry for a while. Whether it was getting guidance from that. The community behind it all.

You guys would have to go into more of that because I wasn't involved in or didn't partake in that ministry.

But so that's kind of the realm that we're going to be talking about today. We're not going to go into real specifics about like our certain traumas, if you will.

We'll be vague with those, but we all have different traumas and stuff. If we're willing to share it,

I think that would be good. But otherwise, Brother Jeff, do you want to start off with explaining what depression is?

One of the things in our culture is that we take words and we extend them outside the bounds of the original.

What people used to call, I'm feeling sad, now is I'm feeling depressed. If we were a little bit nervous about something, now we have anxiety.

We've got to be really careful. To be honest with you, the only person really qualified to make those decisions are you and a medical professional.

If you are struggling with any type of ongoing, lingering sadness and depression,

I really strongly encourage you to get with someone and go see your

GP. They can help you and push you into the right direction that if you do need help, then you can get that.

Also, talk to a counselor, whether it be a pastor or a psychologist, whomever.

Talk with someone, especially someone who has a lot of experience with dealing with this, both personally and professionally.

Get all the information before you just simply label yourself.

Let others help do that and help bring you along. Depression, in its core, is a chemical imbalance in the brain.

They're really still not sure how all that works. Some of the common signs are you don't like doing anything you used to do, very melancholy, very lethargic.

I remember one time sitting in my house and my head was leaned over like this.

I actually realized that I had no motivation to even pick my head up straight.

I knew at that point something was seriously wrong. Depression is a chemical and psychological imbalance where you just feel like there is no way out.

There's no hope. You can't just, as some of my Christian brothers and sisters in the past erroneously said, pull yourself up by your bootstraps and have more faith.

Pray about it. It's something outside of your just simple control.

What is sadness? You can be sad about anything. I was sad when

UT didn't go to the national championships. I was sad when

I didn't get a present from my children for my birthday, which was quite traumatic.

I'm still dealing with that. You can be sad without being depressed.

It's really important to know the distinction between those two. For sure. I think that's one thing

I've even caught myself doing. I'm so anxious about this situation. I'm just nervous about it.

You don't have an anxiety problem. You're nervous about something. There was a point in my life, like we had talked about before, where certain circumstances made me anxious or I was depressed in certain circumstances.

But once I was removed from those, then I was okay. As long as I could get away from the source of the depression and anxiety,

I felt fine. But I'm like, but does that just mean not dealing with the anxiety and depression stuff?

That was like a whole other thing. We could talk about, too, like we talked about with the medications.

Some people choose to do medications versus not. So during those moments of where I had the depression and anxiety were circumstantial, there were a couple of times where I was offered medication, one by a doctor and then one by somebody else who was not licensed to prescribe medication.

I'll just say that. I turned it down both times. One of them was because I started, it was my first year in college, and I was used to going to this small county school, like high school from first to twelfth grade, driving on this one little highway to get there every day, to driving to downtown

Memphis every day on 240, never really driving on the interstate before, going downtown with like all the drug addicts and crap that are on the street cussing at you, and then going to a school where they do trimesters instead of semesters, which means you have like three weeks less to do the same amount of work in a semester, and it's medical crap that you're learning.

It's like, that's a lot of anxiety. I felt really stressed. I would just drive down the interstate, and I would white -knuckle, and like my shoulders were up here, and I was just so tense, like I couldn't relax, and this is when my husband now and I were dating, and he's just like,

I really don't think that you need medication. Like, I think it's just a circumstance. Like, this will pass.

This is not going to be forever. Ended up not doing it, and I was fine, but I ended up going to a doctor, and within 15 minutes, she prescribed me generic

Xanax. Right, right. And I was just like, but you don't even, matter of the first time, like, you don't even know me, and you're just prescribing this to me, instead of being like, you're probably just going through a really rough time.

I could hook you up with a psychiatrist or, you know, counselor, like whatever it is, and then the other situation, like I said, it was circumstantial, was

I had a really, a job that I just hated. I would get sick for the first three months before, like,

I would go in for a shift. Every single shift, I would get sick, and then, like I said, someone at that job ended up offering me some generic

Xanax again, and I told my husband about it. I'm like, I just really feel like I need to be on some type of medication.

Like, I'm just a mess at work and all this, and he's like, do you feel that way anywhere else in your life? Like, at home, at, you know, school, at this place, at this place, and I said no, and he's just like, we'll find you a new job, and that's what

I did, and I was fine. And so, I think that a lot of the times, people struggle with overusing medication in the way that, if they would go seek help from a counselor or a pastor, you know, someone like that to talk out their problems,

I think that they would benefit versus having to do that, and you said even before the podcast, 30 minutes of exercise three times a week has been proven to be like just as good as using medication, but like in the short term,

I feel like a lot of people use it so they don't have to do the hard work, and I know that's not everybody, so that's not me like saying a blanket statement of like, oh, anyone who uses anxiety and depression medication is not doing the hard work that needs to be done, but some people do that because they really don't want to face the reality, and so I think it's a total disservice for yourself to be completely honest, but in those, in that aspect of people using it,

I think people use it too long, too, instead of getting the help, and then they're on it for years and years and years, but people like, and Brother Jeff has been pretty open with this, with his testimony and depression.

He suffers from that. You have seasonal depression, too, and so he's on medication.

Again, he's very open with that, and he agreed to share that on the podcast today, so for people, why do you think there are more people who end up using medication long -term?

Like, there's a difference, like you said, a chemical imbalance versus like a situational thing where they use it, using it as a crutch versus using it long -term for the chemical reason,

I guess. Well, first of all, when you say medication, there's a lot of realities there where people actually self -medicate.

That's why, once again, it's so important that if you reach that point where you're in a constant state of depression, you really need to seek professional medical advice, but one of the things that I've been doing counseling for over 30 years now, and we do about 50 counseling appointments here at the church every week, and one of the things we have found is that medication should be like –

I give the analogy of a life preserver. You're sunk.

You're in the middle of the water there, and it keeps your head above water so that you can ascertain what the situation is, where do

I need to go, and how do I get there, and so any type of medication prescribed by a doctor, any medication should be in conjunction with certain – dealing with not just the effects, but the causality, because a lot of times where people are struggling with anxiety and depression, they don't do anything to stay the same, and to keep that analogy going, they're not even treading water anymore.

They're just laying in the life by bobbing in the water, and so there are a lot of things that we can do that when we start taking personal inventory and then personal responsibility and making certain lifestyle changes, that can help alleviate some of the anxiety and depression.

One of the things over my years of counseling people, I've learned that procrastination, believe it or not, procrastination and a lack of time management is really one of the main causes or triggers of anxiety, and I know that just sounds crazy, but that's what all –

I mean, I have filing cabinets full of people in my notes, and people get overwhelmed.

Instead of dealing the situation, they push it off till tomorrow, and then there's this constant nagging this yearning, and you got to do this, you got to do this, you got to do this, and it piles up beyond what they feel like they can control, and it just overwhelms them.

And I've definitely been guilty. Well, every human being has been guilty of it. You got to reach a point to where – and that's why

I believe so strongly, confess your faults one to another that you may be healed. There needs to be a level of accountability, because if you just stay – and that's one of the key characteristics of depression is that self -isolation.

The more you go inward, and I don't care what modern culture says, the more you go inward, the more dirt you find.

You're never going to find the peace, joy, and happiness in your own little brain. You're always going to be your own worst critic, and so reaching outside of that and getting that veneer of fakeness scraped off of you and reaching into that truth –

I don't remember who said it, maybe you girls can help me. I think it was Nietzsche or Shakespeare that said, yeah, the truth will set you free, and John 832.

And so it's really important that you get that accountability, and you face the truth, and get someone to help you kind of navigate those waters to help make a plan and say, okay, yes, let the doctors take care of that, but then there's a lot of things you can do.

There's a lot of things you can be in control, and just accepting that and then advancing and winning small battles and controlling those things which you can control actually is the beginning process of the freedom that you're looking for on the end result.

And so it's very difficult, though, to get started, and it's that I'm going to fail anyways, or this isn't going to work, so why bother trying?

That kind of defeatist attitude, which is so prevalent in people like me who struggle with depression and anxiety.

You've really got to get that accountability, and years ago that's what the church was for.

That's what the pastors were for, but we've kind of farmed that out. I mean, I have, I want to say right now, 11 people who come to me who have been referred to by other pastors because they don't do counseling, and I'm not going to have a judgment on that.

But yeah, pastors need to get more involved in the lives of their people, not just preaching, but that's another show for another time.

I was about to say, what you're experiencing. Yeah, so I would like to be the younger perspective on this,

I guess. You're saying your old brother Jeff? Yes. So, especially like in high school,

I noticed like a bunch of people, that's when they were like, oh yeah, I have anxiety, I have depression, and just, that's when

I started being like, oh well, I have a lot of the same problems that they're going through, and I have a lot of the same experiences, maybe

I have that too. And my anxiety was always more like social, at least

I thought, and depression, I'm still not sure about that one.

My coping mechanism right now is to just avoid it. Which works for me.

So like, I don't recommend that at all. I don't. But that works for me. Because if I say

I have depression, then I'm just like, oh poor me. So I'm just like, I don't have depression. I just need to get myself through this, you know.

But I started coming here, and I learned a lot more. I went in sad, and that helped me a whole lot.

Because they were like pushing me to not wallow in my problems.

And the biggest thing that I remember from that, one of the most helpful things, is to not focus on yourself.

Because I remember one meeting, it was you actually, it was like, all you're saying right now is

I. I, I, I. And I was just like, I don't know what to say. And I was just so confused.

And I was like, he knows the answers. Why isn't he helping me? And then, you know, like years later, I'm like, ah, yes,

I know why. So just like reaching outside of yourself, and not just the self -help movement nowadays, just like focusing on you, and like self -care.

Like it's important, but it's not good to isolate, and just focus on yourself all the time. You need to help each other, because that helps you.

But so when I was going through all of that, I knew a lot of people that were on medication, and I was just at the point where I thought

I couldn't do it by myself. And I was like, you know what? This is working for them. I want to give it a try. So I went to a primary care doctor, and they referred me to another doctor that was more medically inclined for that mental health.

And I went to him. He, like, I made my appointment. I got there.

They gave me two surveys to fill out, one for anxiety, one for depression. Filled them out the best I could.

And he came in. He was like, all right. So, you know, like, we talked a little bit. And he was like, so you have severe anxiety and severe depression.

And I was just like, cool. I'm a cool girl. Yeah. So he asked me if I wanted medication, and I was like,

I want to give it a try. And he prescribed me Lexapro, which is awful. I feel like I knew when you were on that.

I feel like I remember that. It was, I've heard a lot of people say that they didn't like it. And like, if that works for you, then that works for you.

I've just, for me, that medication was awful. I was only on it for a month, and a month is the amount of time it takes for it to regulate.

But during that month, I was a vegetable. I couldn't deal with anything.

And I was, the whole time, for, like, years,

I had pretty bad suicidal thoughts, or more, what was the word that we're using?

Oh, like, I said passive. No, the, like, you know, you're driving. Oh, intrusive.

Yeah, intrusive thoughts. So not necessarily, like, I'm planning it out, but more like, what if I just drove off the road real quick?

You know, and then that thought goes away. But then during that, like, vegetative state that I was in, it was a lot worse.

And it was more, like, I was telling Anna earlier, I was sitting at work one day, cutting stuff with a box cutter.

And I just, like, looked down at my wrist. And I was like, what if I just did that right now? That would be great.

That would just solve all my problems. And that's when I realized I had a problem.

So I stopped taking it. And I stopped seeing the doctor. It's not that he wasn't helping me.

It's just that... That's not what you needed. Yeah. So I just stopped taking it. I stopped seeing him.

And I focused more on what I could do outside of that, because I already didn't like the idea of having a dependency on medication.

I don't have an addictive personality or anything like that. But I don't like the idea of needing something to get through the day.

So I just learned coping mechanisms through therapy, because I was going to counseling with Pastor Josiah, actually, for a while, and he really helped me.

And so that's what helped most. And just getting accountability for what

I was dealing with, that's what helped me the most. Well, and going back over to Brother Jeff, like, you had childhood trauma, which we talked about, we won't get into.

So with Amy, she said she didn't want to have to rely on the crutch, I'll use a quote, the crutch of the medication every day.

But you take daily medication. How long have you been taking antidepressants? Off and on since 94.

So why do you, well, off and on, do you take that like seasonally?

Because I know you have seasonal depression, or like you have certain seasons of your life. No, it's, it's,

I was on three or four years, was feeling good, got off of it, went three or four years without it, got back on it.

Off and on this last time, I would say I've been on it 10 years. I take, well,

I'm not going to mention the name, because I don't want to give free advertising. But right, they can, they can sponsor a show if they want.

But it has worked really well for me. It's the lowest dosage.

And it works really well for me. And, but yeah, I had a lot of things growing up.

And, and then I can't blame one for another, but made a lot of bad choices.

As a young man, lived in a world of deceit, and lying to myself, lying to everything, trying to fix and find my place in my identity, and self medicated quite a bit.

And he's getting on to me for wanting to take Xanax. No, no, no, no, no, these were illegal, no matter who prescribed them.

But, but really cost myself a lot of scar tissue. And then

I became a Christian. And which people think that when you're a Christian, all of your problems get fixed, that you shouldn't have any issues where you need to medicate.

Not even close. And moved out to Wyoming, and started working out there in the ministry, and had a massive crash.

Too long of a story for here, but massive, just emotional crash, mental gone.

And a very nice, kind doctor on there prescribed me omepramine, which is an older drug.

I worked in the pharmacy for several years, so I don't even know what that is. But it's an older drug, from the 50s and the 60s, and then

Xanax. And for someone like me, who has past chemical dependency issues, that was not a good choice for me.

And it took a long time. Now, I'm not saying this for everybody.

But I'm telling you, for me, I was dealing with a lot of –

I was a Christian. I was a pastor. I was the executive director of a ministry, a parachurch organization.

And I was working 60 hours a week. And people say, well, it was just exhaustion.

Well, the problem with that is, yeah, there was an exhaustive factor to my life at the time.

But the problem is, I was really preaching a grace that I intellectually understood, but had not yet spiritually understood.

And one of the things with people with depression and anxiety – and if this is you, please listen to me on this – being overly judgmental about yourself and that self -abuse to somehow make the scales measure out.

So a lot of times, people who have lived a very sin -filled life and feel like they've got away with it, they self -abuse as a way of self -punishing to try to equal it out.

And it's just a lie from the pit of hell, to use that old phrase. You really – you've got to face that thing, and you've got to really understand not just the doctrine of grace.

You understand the power of grace. But even understanding and even going through all that,

I would still especially – I call from time change in the fall till March 1st are my worst months.

They are absolutely brutal. My counseling schedule just goes through the roof.

Yeah. I mean, I have a lady who – that's all she does. She's like O 'Hare Airport. I mean, we have people sometimes sitting in the hall just in case there's a cancellation to get in.

Yeah, it's bad. Because during those months, I call them divorce, disease, death, and depression.

Those four things for whatever reason between October, November to the beginning of spring just goes crazy.

And so you've got to come to a point during those times, even though you're doing everything you should be doing for someone who is truly clinically depressed, even you're doing all the right things, checking all the right boxes, you just can't.

And it's okay. You're not a loser.

You're not a bum. God hasn't disqualified you. He doesn't hate you. He hasn't left you.

And all the other thoughts that may go through your head, those are all lies from a false sense of understanding of your value in the eyes of God.

And so you really need to get – for you believers out there, you really need to get some real cognitive counseling where you can kind of go through and truthfully look at what the

Word of God says to you and what the Word of God says about you. Yeah, for sure. How would you say that spiritual warfare differs from depression?

Because some people feel like they're under attack by the enemy, which we've talked on here before,

Satan's not omnipresent. So it's just sin, like all that stuff. Darrell Bock Yeah. So a lot of times people – and I've preached this for 30 years, the self -grandiose idea that I am under personal attack by Satan, because wow, gosh, gee.

Kaitlin Luna You must be really important. Darrell Bock You are definitely a threat to his hold on the world. No, the reality is there is spiritual warfare, absolutely.

The Bible, especially the New Testament, is crystal clear about that. And yes, there are people who have been possessed, obsessed, influenced by different demonic things.

But in reality, at least the cases that I've dealt with and in my own life, the vast majority of it has to do with self -inflicted wounds.

And once again, it's that cause and effect. We're not either, A, willing to admit the causality of our own hands to bring about this effect, or we're ignorant of it.

And so there is a spiritual aspect to it. Yes, there is the

Word of God calls Jesus a man of sorrow, because he knew an impending doom that was with him every day.

There is a spiritual aspect, but to ascribe that to a demonic power, simply because you're not feeling good is, at best, ignorance.

At worst, it's counterproductive to get your healing. Once again, you need to get with something outside of your brain and your understanding and get some valid, truthful, hard, concrete facts, both scripturally and medically, before you come to an ultimate conclusion.

Kaitlin Luna So with your experience of spiritual warfare, yours have happened through dreams?

Dr. Darrell Bock Yes. Kaitlin Luna Before any other types of forms? Dr. Darrell Bock In my 30 years of pastoring,

I have had one, just one, contact with a person who I believe was spiritually possessed.

It was not a good thing. But it didn't manifest in that individual as a form of depression.

It was violence and anger. But yes, there are folks that, especially

Christians, who have been inundated with religious legalism or a sense of shame or a sense of self -indictment that have spiritually oppressed the freedom and the power that they have as a child of God.

To understand Philippians 4 -4, the joy of the Lord is our strength, be anxious for nothing but in everything.

So they have self -inflicted by ignoring the Word of God. I always say this, quit ignoring the

Word of God and dreaming you know the will of God, because the Word of God and the will of God never contradict.

And so people want to manifest spiritual reasoning for some of the situations.

I talk to police officers, and they say, man, there's so much more mental health problems.

Well, that may or may not be true, but the reality is that what we call mental health episodes are nothing more than someone who is an entitled spool of brat getting caught for what they're doing wrong.

That's not a mental health episode. You're busted. Kaitlin Luna And you don't have self -control.

Dr. Darrell Bock Right. Kaitlin Luna Not how to act. Dr. Darrell Bock Once again, I'm very cautious of over -analyzing and over -stigmatizing this mental health episode when there are people who truly have mental health issues.

Kaitlin Luna Right, like legitimate things. Dr. Darrell Bock Right. Kaitlin Luna Well, that's what I'm saying. With your case, you've had that childhood trauma, and you've been on medication the past 10 years, and you're a pastor.

But you've experienced the spiritual warfare, all of the things that we're talking about. But then looking at someone like Amy and I, I was never on medication, and Amy was for a hot minute.

And we have different paths. So it's not a blanket statement.

And so if you do need the help, definitely get it. But it's like everyone's experiences are different.

Like I had – I think we all have some type of trauma. In that word, I feel like it's even overused nowadays.

And it's like someone hurt your feelings by calling you stupid as a kid, and it's just like, oh, that's my trauma.

It's like, oh, the trauma. Dr. Darrell Bock I'm a victim. Kaitlin Luna And I'm like, okay, you aren't actually abused or anything. But okay, you have the victim mentality of it.

And so I feel like that's something that our generation really focuses on. But it's like you have different situations here.

And that's one of the reasons why I wanted to have you on is because you're not only a pastor, but you –

I don't want to say suffer from depression. Like you have depression. Dr. Darrell Bock I struggle with it. Kaitlin Luna Struggle with depression. Thank you.

Struggle with depression. You've had like all these things against you, but you choose not to wallow in that.

You choose not to play the victim mentality. You choose to trust in God's word and believe what it says and find hope in that and encourage others by that.

Dr. Darrell Bock Yeah, well, it is God's word. But God has given us medical professionals.

He's given me brothers and sisters in Christ. He's given me accountability brothers. So it's – my wife is definitely a tool in the hand of God for this.

And so yeah, I appreciate you having me on since I am the funnier pastor.

Kaitlin Luna Yes, you are. I voted for you. Dr. Darrell Bock I'm the funnier pastor. Kaitlin Luna And I told Pastor Josiah, I said, humor is subjective.

And I said, and your dad just makes me laugh for him. If you haven't figured it out, this is actually Pastor Josiah's dad.

Dr. Darrell Bock Yeah. Kaitlin Luna Because they share the same – yeah. Dr. Darrell Bock I am the senior pastor. Kaitlin Luna The senior pastor. He's the lowly associate.

Dr. Darrell Bock Yes, he's just a lowly associate. No, but seriously, I really – I can't stress enough.

I can't stress enough some of the things that you can do to help mitigate your struggle with depression.

But you really need to get that medical diagnosis because – and that's one thing when

I teach pastors. We've trained pastors and I go all over teaching pastors all over the world.

And that's one of the things I always tell them is you're not a police officer. You're not a pharmacist. You're not a physician. You're not a psychiatrist.

Don't act like one. Use what the Word of God tells you, but refer out outside your responsibility or your education.

And so you as an individual, if you're struggling with anxiety and depression, there are people to go and talk to.

But there are so many things that you can do as an individual right here, right now to start dealing with some of this.

Kirsten Smith So one of the problems that we see is that Christians or non -Christians alike will twist

Scripture out of context and use it to apply to all their crap and stuff.

So do you have any Scripture in mind that the people use in order to twist around to meet their agenda?

Dr. Darrell Bock Yeah, one of the verses I referred to earlier, Philippians 4, 6, and 7, that's a verse that be anxious for nothing.

And I've actually had well -intending people and even pastors say, well, see, you're not supposed to worry.

That is not harmonetically correct out of that. That's taken that way out of context.

To say that we shouldn't worry would be to immediately assign the Son of God sin.

Kirsten Smith Yeah, because he was so worried in the garden. Dr. Darrell Bock Yeah, he was sweating bullets.

And so that's not what that means. Anxiety – be careful, be anxious for nothing.

So that doesn't mean it doesn't worry. What it means is even in that anxious moment, there's still an underlying faith.

That's why Philippians 4, 4 says the joy of the Lord, not the happiness. Our happiness is fleeting like sadness.

It's an emotion, but it's fleeting. But the joy of the Lord can actually be present in the most anxious moment that you have.

And there are well -intending believers out there that say, have more faith or just pray more or pull yourself up by your bootstraps.

And I'm like, well, hey, Skippy, if I could, don't you think I would have done it by now? Because it's not enjoyable.

So yeah, the church needs to be just a little bit more, I wouldn't say empathetic, but actually just factual on what depression is and how to deal with it.

Just be factual. Stephanie A. Well, but like we've said, it's gotten – the definition of depression has gotten replaced with – or like what sadness was, it's now depression.

And so it's just like, I'm sad this happened instead of like, I'm depressed. Dr. Darrell Bock Yeah, but everyone nowadays needs a diagnosis.

They need to say that they have the whole victim mindset like we were just saying. Well, but it also just exaggerates everything.

It's like you can't just be – like you said, you can't be nervous about like this big test that you have coming up or like this interview that you have.

It's like, oh, I'm so anxious about it. And it's like, okay, use the proper terms, if you will.

But one of the other verses I thought of, is it in Matthew where it's talking about like, don't worry about anything.

It's like, even God takes care of the sparrows or whatever. It's like all of their needs are met. And so that was always one thing.

It's like, I try not to worry about the things that are outside of my control, like, personally.

Like, for the last year and a half, my husband had applied for like, no joke, probably 100 jobs plus easily.

And he was looking for that new job. And he would get an interview and then like, it wouldn't go well.

And he like, wouldn't get offered the position, all of that. And I just remember like, at first, just being really anxious about it, like legitimately anxious.

And like, because this other company, it's like a whole thing. Like, he might not have had a job. I'm not working.

So that made me anxious, legitimately anxious. And then I just started, you know what, he didn't get a position.

I'm like, well, obviously, this is a part of God's plan. I have to say that for myself too, so I can believe that.

You know what I mean? And so it's like, I wasn't just saying that for his encouragement. I was also saying that for my benefit. It's like, everything's going to be okay.

Like, we will be taken care of. We have never had a moment in our lives where God has not taken care of us.

And we can always point back to that. And, you know, after a year and a half, he found out he got the job.

It was the day we actually found out we're having another boy. And so that was, that was a really, really fun day.

And you cried a lot that day. I cried a lot. Because we found out the gender, he came home and, you know, like we found out the results at home because they can mail it in like all that crap now.

It's so fancy. And so we found out it was another boy. And I was already crying because I was excited about that.

And then he's like, well, since you're already happy, I'll tell you I got this job. And I just cried.

And then after I was done crying, I was able to speak. And I said, God is so good. And I told him,

I was like, even though I didn't always believe that we would be taken care of, like God has always proven himself.

And that's what I go back on is like, if you guys are struggling with stuff like that, just always look in your life, like reflect and see where God has been faithful.

That's one thing that provides me comfort. But I've definitely misinterpreted the scripture of like, don't worry about anything.

You know, everything's taken care of. And I'm like, you know, I will not worry, but I'm not going to be perfect about it.

Like, that's just the reality. If I'm going to be anxious and freak out because I'm a type A person, I need control over everything.

So I'm going to fail in that. But I'm going to choose to have faith and trust in God's promises. Well, that juxtaposition is not an anomaly.

I mean, if you think about it, you can't have faith without doubt. You can't have courage without fear and danger.

You know, being anxious for something, but still being trusting in the Lord is it's not those two things walk hand in hand.

In fact, I'll tell you, one can't exist without the other. And so and that's another thing people with depression, anxiety, especially believers will do is they'll and I call it the downward spiral.

You know, they'll start feeling they'll start having these issues. And instead of dealing with them, they suppress them.

But then they feel guilty for not having the faith that they feel guilty for feeling guilty. And it's just like this never ending downward spiral.

And you keep imploding inside. You keep on isolating and going inside and inside and inside trying to find relief.

And if you actually utter or mutter a prayer, you know, it's not just out of desperation. It's out of futility, because you're not really hearing what

God is saying. God is speaking to you that whole time, through his word through his

Holy Spirit. And that's why it's so important, once again, to have accountability, and people in your church, you know, and that's another thing,

Christians, they deal with this ideal, that they have to be super perfect to be a

Christian. Well, it's taboo. It's a taboo topic. They don't. I think, too, it comes from vulnerability.

Yeah, absolutely. They don't, people don't want to be vulnerable with each other, like you said in that, both the scripture that you quoted is confess your faults one to another so that you may be healed.

And being vulnerable is uncomfortable. Right. It's very uncomfortable. I've been through therapy many times, some of them with this pastor.

I always ended up crying every freaking time. But I always loved you. Yeah, that's why I don't go back. I'm just kidding.

But that's one thing that people really struggle with is having the courage to be vulnerable, especially, you know, if you've gone through, like, legitimate traumas in your life or just hard times, and to, like, seek that help, to have the courage to seek the help to, because I just feel like even though the self -help or the self -care, like, era is really prominent currently.

That's one thing that people struggle with. I'll give you an example. I was preaching revival, and a church staff person came down and was converted, became a

Christian. And they told me it was not a private sin. It was not a feeling of stupidity.

They had been resisting the conviction of the

Holy Spirit because they were so embarrassed about what people would say. Because they worked at the church.

Because they worked at the church. And so that is just – and I could see where that power of influence would be in your life.

But, you know, you were talking about vulnerability. The scripture word for that is humble. You know, being humble is being vulnerable.

And so that's one of the keys in fighting anxiety and depression is humble yourself, therefore, in the sight of God, and he will lift you up.

And remember this, believer. It says he will lift you up in due time. A lot of times we sit there, we want the immediate –

Rebekah Petrick Right, right. You know, we want to come down the – we want to walk down the aisle and, Jesus, help me.

And, you know, we're expecting this metamorphi to happen like it happened in your conversion, when in reality, the sanctifying process of maturing in Christ is drudgery.

I mean, it's every day. It's the grind. And dealing with this thing, don't get tired and don't get discouraged to a point where you've tried and tried and tried, and it seems to be no relief.

I promise you from the Word of God, no matter what you're going through, no matter what it is,

I promise you there's a hope greater than the pain you're going through. And so I just –

I pray for you right now in the name of Christ that if you are struggling with this, please seek help.

It is not – it's not over. And, you know, in my congregation, I always say no matter what you've gone through or what you've done, no matter how bad it is, and you can think of whatever you want to think of,

I promise you have a sinner and a saint sitting in that room that's gone through the same thing.

You are not alone. You are not crazy. You're not alone. So please, you know, reach out.

Call your pastor, you know, and just say, I need some help. And if that pastor's not equipped or not educated within that field, man, that pastor will refer you to somebody who can help you.

I remember that was one of the biggest things for me when I started going to SAD is

I was, first of all, confused why I was there for a second when

I first started going to the meetings, but it was just realizing that not just a few people, but a lot of people are dealing with the same problems that I am, that I was like, oh, okay, that makes me feel better, you know?

I'm not as big a loser by myself as I thought, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And you get strength from that, you know?

We have an alcoholic and addiction recovery program here, and that's one of the great strengths of those programs is you realize that you're not alone.

And once again, it's that vulnerability and accountability that just helps so, so much.

Amen, amen, amen. All right, all right, all right. All right. Well, I guess we'll close with that here.

Otherwise, y 'all, we thank you for watching. And do you know how we end the show? Do you ever watch until the very end?

No, I do not. No one ever does. You miss bloopers that way, you know that? Oh, y 'all have bloopers now? Lowell adds bloopers.

Oh, wow. I'm going to go back and rewatch just to see the bloopers. You'll have to watch the one with, the homeschool one we did with Mike and Dalton.

But we say, until next time, deuces. And we do the peace sign, and you look at the camera.