Spiritual Warfare or Depression & Anxiety? (Special Guests Pastor Jeff & Amy Lewis) | PT S6 E3

Depression, Anxiety, and Suicide Disclaimer

Hey guys, thank you for listening to today's episode. We did just want to give a brief disclaimer and let you know that we will be discussing depression, anxiety, and suicide in this episode today. So if you are not comfortable listening to this without your headphones, make sure to put those in.

Otherwise, if you have kids around, probably want to save this for later. Also, we wanted to include the suicide hotline number, which is done here. And Pastor Jeff has actually given us his email to give out to you guys to share in case you have any questions for him or if you just want to talk to him.

So that will be included as well. And thanks again for watching. Welcome back everybody to the Point Taken Christian podcast, where we talk about stuff that we want to. That's our new slogan. Today we have Brother Jeff Shipley over here.

This is our beloved pastor over here. Look into the camera, Brother Jeff, and say hi. And then over here we have one of our friends, Amy, who is just going to be sharing her experience today. If you haven't seen the topic below, go read that before.

Otherwise, we're going to be talking about depression today. We have all had different experiences with anxiety and depression throughout our lives, but this podcast really came to be from one of our church members, who's actually a friend of ours, who posed a question.

What Christians Should Do About Depression and Anxiety

And we kind of changed the question around because we don't know their exact circumstance, if you will. So I'll just read it and then we'll kind of go from there. So am I under attack by the enemy or am I just struggling and actually need help with medication?

So like anxiety, depression type stuff. And so we kind of posed that as, what should Christians do for depression? What is depression? Should they be medicated for it? You know, same things with anxiety.

We actually had a group for a long time, the SAD group. What did that stand for? Soldiers Against Depression. It was called the SAD group, Soldiers Against Depression, if you will. Saints Against Depression.

It was anxiety and depression. Something like that. But it was a group at our church for other people to come and just get some help, whether it was having guidance. The pastor was involved in that ministry for a while.

Whether it was getting guidance from that. The community behind it all. You guys would have to go into more of that because I wasn't involved in or didn't partake in that ministry. But so that's kind of the realm that we're going to be talking about today.

We're not going to go into real specifics about our certain traumas, if you will. We'll be vague with those, but we all have different traumas and stuff. If we're willing to share it, I think that would be good.

But otherwise, Brother Jeff, do you want to start off with explaining.

What Depression Is and How to Distinguish It From Sadness

What depression is? Yeah. So one of the things in our culture is that we take words and we extend them outside the bounds of their original. So you know what people used to call, I'm feeling sad, now is I'm feeling depressed.

If we were a little bit nervous about something, now we have anxiety. And so we got to be really careful. And to be honest with you, the only person really qualified to make those decisions are you and a medical professional.

If you are struggling with any type of ongoing lingering sadness and depression, I really strongly encourage you to get with someone and go see your GP. And they can help you and push you into the right direction that if you do need help, then you can get that.

Also, talk to a counselor, whether it be a pastor or a psychologist, whomever. Talk with someone, especially someone who has a lot of experience with dealing with this, both personally and professionally.

And get all the information before you just simply label yourself. And let others help do that and help bring you along. So depression in its core is a chemical imbalance in the brain. They're really still not sure how all that works.

But some of the common signs are you don't like doing anything you used to do, very melancholy, very lethargic. I remember one time sitting in my house and my head was leaned over like this. And I actually realized that I had no motivation to even pick my head up straight.

And I knew at that point something was seriously wrong. So depression is a chemical and psychological imbalance where you just feel like there's no way out. There's no hope. And you can't just, as some of my Christian brothers and sisters in the past erroneously have said, pull yourself up by your bootstraps and have more faith.

Yeah, pray about it. Pray about it. It's something outside of your just simple control. And so what is sadness? Well, you can be sad about anything. I was sad when UT didn't go to the National Championships.

I was sad when I didn't get a present from my children for my birthday, which was quite traumatic. I'm still dealing with that. But you can be sad without being depressed. And it's really important to know the distinction between those two.

Yeah, for sure. And I think that's one thing I've even caught myself doing is like, I'm so anxious about this situation. And it's like, I'm just nervous about it.

Right, right, right. You don't have an anxiety problem. You're nervous about something.

Circumstantial Anxiety, Medication, and Counseling

Yeah, because there was a point in my life, like we had talked about before, where certain circumstances made me anxious or I was depressed in certain circumstances. But once I was removed from those, then I was okay.

And so it's like, as long as I could get away from the source of the depression and anxiety, I felt fine. But I'm like, but is that just me not dealing with the anxiety and depression stuff? Or, you know, so that was like a whole other thing.

We could talk about too, like we talked about with the medications, some people choose to do medications versus not. So during those moments of where I had the depression and anxiety were circumstantial, there were a couple of times where I was offered medication, one by a doctor and then one by somebody else who was not licensed to prescribe medication.

I'll just say that. I turned it down. But like one of them was because I started, it was my first year in college, and I was used to going to the small county school, like high school from first to twelfth grade, driving on this one little highway to get there every day, to driving to downtown Memphis every day on 240, never really driving on the interstate before, going downtown with like all the drug addicts and crap that are on the street cussing at you, and then going to a school where they do trimesters instead of semesters, which means you have like three weeks less to do the same amount of work in a semester.

And it's medical crap that you're learning. It's like that's a lot of anxiety. I felt really stressed. I would just drive down the interstate, and I would white knuckle, and like my shoulders were up here, and I was just so tense, like I couldn't relax.

And this is when my husband now and I were dating, and he's just like, I really don't think that you need medication. Like I think it's just a circumstance. Like this will pass. This is not gonna be forever.

Ended up not doing it, and I was fine. But I ended up going to a doctor, and within 15 minutes she prescribed me generic Xanax. And I was just like, but you don't even matter for the first time. I'm like, you don't even know me, and you're just prescribing this to me instead of being like, you're probably just going through a really rough time.

I could hook you up with a psychiatrist or, you know, counselor, like whatever it is. And then the other situation, like I said, it was circumstantial, was I had a really a job that I just hated. I would get sick for the first three months before like I would go in for a shift.

Every single shift I would get sick. And then like I said, someone at that job ended up offering me some generic Xanax again. And I told my husband about it. I'm like, I just really feel like I need to be on some type of medication.

Like I'm just a mess at work and all this. And he's like, do you feel that way anywhere else in your life? Like at home? At, you know, school? At this place? At this place? And I said no, and he's just like, we'll find you a new job.

And that's what I did, and I was fine. And so I think that a lot of the times people struggle with overusing medication in the way that if they would go seek help from a counselor or a pastor, you know, someone like that to talk out their problems, I think that they would benefit versus having to do that.

And you said even before the podcast, 30 minutes of exercise three times a week has been proven to be like just as good as using medication. But like in the short term, I feel like a lot of people use it so they don't have to do the hard work.

And I know that's not everybody, so that's not me like saying a blanket statement of like, oh anyone who uses anxiety and depression medication is not doing the hard work that needs to be done. But some people do that because they really don't want to face the reality.

And so I think it's a total disservice for yourself to be completely honest. But in those, in that aspect of people using it, I think people use it too long too instead of getting the help and then they're on it for years and years and years.

But people like, and Brother Jeff has been pretty open with this with his testimony and depression. He suffers from that. You have seasonal depression too. And so he's on medication. Again, he's very open with that and he agreed to share that on the podcast today.

So for people, why do you think there are more people who end up using medication long term? Like there's a difference, like you said, a chemical imbalance versus like a situational thing where they use it, using it as a crutch versus using it long term for the chemical reason, I guess.

Medication as a Life Preserver and the Causes of Anxiety

Well, first of all, when you say medication, there's there's a lot of realities there where people actually self medicate. That's why once again, it's so important that if you reach that point where you're in a constant state of depression, you really need to seek professional medical advice.

But one of the things that I've been doing counseling for over 30 years now, and you know, we we do about 50 counseling appointments here at the church every week. And one of the things we have found is that medication should be like, I give the analogy of a life preserver, you know, you're sunk, you're in the water, you know, there, and it keeps your head above water so that you can, you know, ascertain what the situation is, where do I need to go?

And how do I get there? And so any type of medication is prescribed by a doctor. Any medication should be in conjunction with certain dealing with not just the effects, but the causality. Because a lot of times where people are struggling anxiety and depression, they don't do anything to stay the same.

And to keep that analogy going, they're not even treading water anymore, they're just laying in the life by bobbing in the water. And so there are a lot of things that we can do. That when we start taking, you know, personal inventory, and and then personal responsibility, and making certain lifestyle changes, that can help alleviate some of the anxiety and depression.

One of the things over my years of counseling people, I've learned that procrastination, believe it or not, procrastination, and a lack of time management is really one of the main causes or triggers of anxiety.

And I know that just sounds crazy. But that's what all I mean, I have filing cabinets full of people in my notes, and people get overwhelmed, instead of dealing the situation, they push it off till tomorrow.

And then there's this constant nagging, this this yearning, and the you got to do this, you got to do this, you got to do this. And it piles up beyond what they feel like they can control, and it just overwhelms them.

And I've definitely been guilty. Well, every human being has been guilty of it. You got to reach a point to where, and that's why I believe so strongly, confess your faults one to another that you may be healed.

There needs to be a level of accountability, because if you just stay, and that's one of the key characteristics of depression, is that self-isolation, the more you go inward, and I don't care what modern culture says, the more you go inward, the more dirt you find.

You're never going to find the peace, joy, and happiness in your own little brain. You're always going to be your own worst critic. And so reaching outside of that, and getting that veneer of fakeness scraped off of you, and reaching into that truth.

I don't remember who said it, maybe you girls can help me. I think it was Nietzsche or Shakespeare that said, yeah, the truth will set you free. And John 832. And so it's really important that you get that accountability, and you face the truth, and get someone to help you kind of navigate those waters, to help make a plan and say, okay, yes, let the doctors take care of that.

But then there's a lot of things you can do. There's a lot of things you can be in control. And just accepting that, and then advancing, and winning small battles, and controlling those things which you can control, actually, is the beginning process of the freedom that you're looking for on the end result.

And so it's very difficult, though, to get started. And it's that, I'm going to fail anyways, or this isn't going to work. So why bother trying that kind of defeatist attitude, which is so prevalent in people like me, who struggle with depression and anxiety, you know, you really got to get that accountability.

And, you know, years ago, that's what the church was for. You know, that's what the pastors were for. But we've kind of farmed that out. I mean, I have, I want to say right now, 11 people who come to me who have been referred to by other pastors, because they don't do counseling.

And I'm not going to have a judgment on that. But yeah, pastors need to get more involved in the lives of their people, not just preaching. But that's another show for another time.

Amy Lewis on Self-Help, Therapy, and Medication

What's, I was about to say, what's your experience, Amy?

Yeah, so I would like to be the younger perspective on this, I guess. You're saying your old brother, Jeff? Yes. So especially like in high school, I noticed like a bunch of people, that's when they were like, Oh, yeah, I have anxiety, I have depression.

And just, I, that's when I started being like, Oh, well, I have a lot of the same problems that they're going through. And I have a lot of the same experiences, maybe I have that too. And my anxiety was always more like social, at least I thought and depression.

I'm still not sure about that one. My coping mechanism right now is to just avoid it. Yeah, which works for me. So like, I don't recommend that at all. I don't. But that works for me. Because if I say I have depression, then I'm just like, Oh, poor me.

So I'm just like, I don't have depression. I just need to get myself through this, you know. But I started coming here and I learned a lot more, I went in sad. And that helped me a whole lot. Because they were like pushing me to not wallow in my problems.

And the biggest thing that I remember from that, one of the most helpful things is to not focus on yourself. Because I remember one meeting, it was you actually, it was like, all you're saying right now is I, I and I was just like, I don't know.

And I was just so confused. I was like, he knows the answers. Why isn't he helping me? And then, you know, like years later, I'm like, Ah, yes, I know. So just like reaching outside of yourself and not just the self help movement nowadays, just like, focusing on you and like, I self care, like, it's important, but it's not good to isolate and just focus on yourself all the time, you need to help each other, because that helps you.

But so when I was going through all of that, I knew a lot of people that were on medication. And I was just at the point where I thought I couldn't do it by myself. And I was like, you know what, this is working for them, I want to give it a try.

So I went to a primary care doctor, and they referred me to another doctor that was more medically inclined for that mental health. And I went to him, he, like, I made my appointment, I got there, they gave me two surveys to fill out one for anxiety, one for depression, filled them out the best I could.

And he came in, he was like, Alright, so you know, like, we talked a little bit. And he was like, yeah, so you have severe anxiety and severe depression. And I was just like, cool. Yeah. So he asked me if I wanted medication.

And I was like, I want to give it a try. And he prescribed me Lexapro, which is awful. I knew when you were on that. Yeah, I feel like it was, I've heard a lot of people say that they didn't like it. And like, if that works for you, then that works for you.

I've just, for me, that medication was awful. I was only on it for a month. And a month is the amount of time it takes for it to regulate. But during that month, I was a vegetable. I couldn't deal with anything.

And I was the whole time. For like years, I had pretty bad suicidal thoughts or more.

What was the word that we're using? Oh, like, I said passive. No, they're like, you know, you're driving.

Oh, intrusive. Yeah, intrusive thoughts. So not necessarily like, I'm planning it out. But more like, what if I just drove off the road real quick? You know, and then that thought goes away. But then during that, like vegetative state that I was in, it was a lot worse.

And it was more like I was telling Anna earlier, I was sitting at work one day cutting stuff with a box cutter. And I just like look down at my wrist. And I was like, what if I just did that right now?

That would be great. That would just solve all my problems. And that's when I realized I had a problem. So I stopped taking it. And I stopped seeing the doctor. It's not that he wasn't helping me. It's just that's not what you needed.

Yeah. So I just stopped taking it. I stopped seeing him. And I focused more on what I could do outside of that, because I already didn't like the idea of having a dependency on medication. I don't have an addictive personality or anything like that.

But I don't like the idea of needing something to get through the day. So I just learned coping mechanisms through therapy, because I was going to counseling with Pastor Josiah actually, for a while, and he really helped me.

And so that's what helped most and just getting accountability for what I was.

Brother Jeff's Testimony of Depression, Medication, and Grace

Dealing with. That's what helped me the most. Well, and going going back over to Brother Jeff, like you had childhood trauma, like which we talked about, we won't get into. So with Amy, she said she didn't want to have to rely on the crutch.

I'll use a quote, the crutch of the medication every day. But you take daily medication. How long have you been taking? Off and on since 94. So why do you shoot? Well, off and on? Do you take that like seasonally?

Because I know you have seasonal depression or like you have certain seasons of your life.

No, it's it's I was on for three or four years, feeling good, got off of it, went three or four years without it, got back on it. Off and on this last time, I would say I've been on it 10 years. I take well, I'm not going to mention the name because I don't want to give free advertising.

But right, they can they can sponsor a show if they want. But it has worked really well for me. It's the lowest dosage. And it worked really well for me. And but yeah, I had a lot of things growing up and and then I can't blame one for another but made a lot of bad choices.

As a young man, lived in a world of deceit and lying to myself lying to everything, trying to fix and find my place and my identity and self medicated quite a bit. And.

He's getting on to me for wanting to take Xanax.

No, no, no, no, no. These were illegal no matter who prescribed them. But but really cost myself a lot of scar tissue. And then I became a Christian.

Yeah, which people think that when you're a Christian, all of your problems get fixed that you shouldn't have any issues where you need to medicate.

Not even close and moved out to Wyoming and started working out there in the ministry and had a massive crash. Too long of a story for here, but massive. Just emotional crash mental gone. And a very nice kind doctor on there prescribed me a mipramine, which is an older drug.

I worked in the pharmacy for several years. I don't even know what I don't.

But it's an older drug from the 50s and the 60s. And then Xanax. And for someone like me who has past chemical dependency issues, that was not a good choice for me. And it took a long time. Now, I'm not saying this for everybody.

But I'm telling you from for me, I was dealing with a lot of I was a Christian, I was a pastor. I was the executive director of a ministry, a parachurch organization. And I was working 60 hours a week.

And people say, well, it was just exhaustion. Well, the problem with that is, yeah, there was an exhaustive factor to my life at the time. But the problem is, I was really preaching a grace that I intellectually understood, but had not yet spiritually understood.

And one of the things with people with depression and anxiety, and if this is you, please listen to me on this, being overly judgmental about yourself and, you know, that self abuse to somehow make the scales measure out.

So a lot of times people who have lived a very sin filled life and feel like they've got away with it, they self abuse as a way of self punishing to try to equal it out. And it's just a lie from the pit of hell to use that old phrase.

You really, you got to face that thing. And you got to really understand not just the doctrine of grace, you understand the power of grace. But even understanding and even going through all that, I would still especially I call from time change in the fall, till March 1, are my worst months.

They are absolutely brutal. My counseling schedule just goes through the roof. Yeah, I mean, I have a lady who, that's all she does. She's like O 'Hare Airport. I mean, we have people sometimes sitting in the hall just in case there's a cancellation to get in.

Yeah, it's bad. Because during those months, I call them divorce, disease, death and depression. Those four things for whatever reason, between October, November to the beginning of spring just goes crazy.

And so you've got to come to a point during those times, even though you're doing everything you should be doing for someone who is truly clinically depressed, even you're doing all the right things, checking all the right boxes, you know, you just can't.

And it's okay. You're not a loser. You're not a bum. God hasn't disqualified you. He doesn't hate you. He hasn't left you. And all the other thoughts that may go through your head, those are all lies from a false sense of understanding of your value in the eyes of God.

And so you really need to get, for you believers out there, you really need to get some real cognitive counseling where you can kind of go through and truthfully look at what the Word of God says to you and what the Word of God says about you.

Spiritual Warfare, Mental Health, and the Word of God

Yeah, for sure. How would you say that spiritual warfare differs from depression? Because some people feel like they're under attack from by the enemy, which we've talked on here before, Satan's not omnipresent.

It's just, you know, sin, like all that stuff.

So a lot of times, you know, people, and I've preached this for 30 years, you know, the self-grandiose idea that I am under personal attack by Satan, because wow, gosh, gee. You must be really important.

You are definitely a threat to his hold on the world. No, the reality is there are, there is spiritual warfare. Absolutely. The Bible, especially the New Testament is crystal clear about that. And yes, there are people who, you know, have been possessed, obsessed, influenced by different demonic things.

But in reality, at least the cases that I've dealt with and in my own life, the vast majority of it has to do with self-inflicted wounds. And once again, it's that cause and effect. We're not either, A, willing to admit the causality of our own hands to bring about this effect, or we're ignorant of it.

And so there is a spiritual aspect to it. Yes, there is. The Word of God calls Jesus a man of sorrow, because he knew an impending doom that was with him every day. There is a spiritual aspect, but to ascribe that to a demonic power, simply because you're not feeling good is, you know, at best, ignorance.

At worst, it's counterproductive to get your healing. Once again, you need to get with something outside of your brain and your understanding and get some valid, truthful, hard, concrete facts, both scripturally and medically, before you.

Come to an ultimate conclusion. So with your experience of spiritual warfare, yours have happened through dreams? Yes. Before any other types of forms? In my 30 years of.

Pastoring, I have had one, just one, contact with a person who I believe was spiritually possessed. It was not a good thing. But it didn't manifest in that individual as a form of depression. It was violence and anger.

But yes, there are folks that, especially Christians, who have been inundated with maybe religious legalism or a sense of shame or a sense of self-indictment that have spiritually oppressed the freedom and the power that they have as a child of God.

To understand, you know, Philippians 4 .4, the joy of the Lord is our strength. Be anxious for nothing but in everything. So they have self inflicted by ignoring the Word of God. I always say this, you know, quit ignoring the Word of God and dreaming you know the will of God, because the Word of God and the will of God never contradict.

And so people want to manifest a spiritual reasoning for some of the situations. I talk to police officers, you know, and they say, man, there's so much more mental health problems. Well, that may or may not be true, but the reality is that what we call now mental health episodes are nothing more than someone who is an entitled spoiled brat getting caught for what they're doing wrong.

That's not a mental health episode. You're busted.

And you don't have self-control and know how to act.

Right. And so there's, once again, I'm very cautious of over-analyzing and over-stigmatizing this mental health episode when there are people who truly have mental health issues.

Right, like legitimate things. Right. Well, that's what I'm saying. Like with your case, you've had that childhood trauma and you've had been on medication the past 10 years and you're a pastor, but you've experienced the spiritual warfare, all of the things that we're talking about.

But then looking at someone like Amy and I, like I was never on medication and Amy was for like a hot minute, and it's like, and we have different paths. So it's like everybody, it's not a blanket statement.

And so if you do need the help, you know, definitely get it. But it's like everyone's experiences are different. Like I had, I think we all have some type of trauma in that word. I feel like it's even overused nowadays.

And it's like someone hurt your feelings, like by calling you stupid as a kid. And it's just like, oh, that's my trauma. Like, oh, the trauma. I'm a victim. And I'm like, okay, like you weren't actually abused or anything, but okay, you have the victim mentality of it.

And so I feel like that's something that our generation really focuses on. But it's like you have different situations here. Well, and that's one of the reasons why I wanted to have you on is because you're not only a pastor, but you, I don't want to say suffer from depression.

Like you have depression. Struggle with it. Thank you. Struggle with depression. You've had like all these things against you, but you choose not to wallow in that. You choose not to play the victim mentality.

You choose to trust in God's word and believe what it says and find hope in that and encourage others by that.

Scripture Abuse, Philippians 4, and the Need for Factual Counseling

Yeah, well, it is God's word, but God has given us, you know, medical professionals. He's given me brothers and sisters in Christ. He's given me accountability brothers. So it's, you know, my wife is definitely a tool in the hand of God for this.

Yeah. And so, yeah, I appreciate you having me on since I am the funnier pastor.

Yes, you are. I voted for you. I'm the funnier pastor. Well, and I told Pastor Josiah, I said, humor is subjective. And I said, and your dad just makes me laugh for him. If you haven't figured it out, this is actually Pastor Josiah's dad.

I am the senior pastor.

The senior pastor. He is the lowly associate.

Yes, he's just a lowly associate. No, but seriously, you know, I can't stress enough some of the things that you can do to help mitigate your struggle with depression. But you really need to get that medical diagnosis because, you know, and that's one thing when I teach pastors, we've trained pastors and I go all over teaching pastors all over the world.

And that's one of the things I always tell them is you're not a police officer. You're not a pharmacist. You're not a physician. You're not a psychiatrist. Don't act like one. Use what the word of God tells you, but refer out outside your responsibility or your education.

And so you as an individual, if you're struggling with anxiety and depression, you know, there are people to go and talk to, but there are so many things that you can do as an individual right here, right now to start dealing with some of this.

So one of the problems that we see is that Christians or non-Christians alike will twist scripture out of context and use it, you know, to like apply to, you know, like all their crap and stuff. So do you have any scripture in mind that the people use in order to twist around to meet their agenda?

Well, one of the verses I yeah, one of the verses I referred to earlier, Philippians 4, 6, and 7, that's a verse that be anxious for nothing. And I've actually had well-intending people and even pastors say, well, see, you're not supposed to worry.

That is not harmonetically correct out of that. That's taken that way out of context. To say that we shouldn't worry would be to immediately assign the Son of God sin.

Yeah, because he was so worried in the garden.

Yeah, he was sweating bullets. And so, you know, that's not what that means. Anxiety, be careful, be anxious for nothing. So that doesn't mean it doesn't worry. What it means is even in that anxious moment, there's still an underlying faith.

That's why Philippians 4, 4 says the joy of the Lord, not the happiness. Our happiness is fleeting like sadness. It's an emotion, but it's fleeting. But the joy of the Lord can actually be present in the most anxious moment that you have.

So yeah, you know, and there are well-intending believers out there that say, you know, have more faith or just pray more or pull yourself up by your bootstraps. And I'm like, well, hey, Skippy, if I could, don't you think I'd have done it by now?

Because it's not enjoyable. So yeah, the church needs to be just a little bit more, I wouldn't say empathetic, but actually just factual on what depression is and how to deal with it. Just be factual.

Well, but like we've said, the definition of depression has gotten replaced, you know, with sadness or like what sadness was, it's now depression. And so it's just like, I'm sad this happened instead of like, I'm depressed.

Yeah, but everyone nowadays needs a diagnosis. They need to say that they have, you know, the whole victim mindset, like we were just saying.

Well, but it also just exaggerates everything. It's like you can't just be, like you said, you can't be nervous about like this big test that you have coming up or like this interview that you have. It's like, oh, I'm so anxious about it.

And it's like, okay, use the proper terms, if you will. But one of the other verses I thought of, is it in Matthew where it's talking about like, don't worry about anything. It's like even God takes care of the sparrows or whatever.

It's like all of their needs are met. And so that was always one thing. It's like, I try not to worry about the things that are outside of my control, like personally. Like for the last year and a half, my husband had applied for like, no joke, probably 100 jobs plus, easily.

And he was looking for that new job and he would get an interview and then like it wouldn't go well. You know, he like wouldn't get offered the position, all of that. And I just remember like at first just being really anxious about it, like legitimately anxious.

Because this other company, it's like a whole thing. Like he might not have had a job. I'm not working. So that made me anxious, legitimately anxious. And then I just started, you know what? He didn't get a position.

I'm like, well, obviously this is a part of God's plan. I have to say that for myself too, so I can believe that. You know what I mean? And so it's like, I wasn't just saying that for his encouragement.

I was also saying that for my benefit, it's like everything's going to be okay. Like we will be taken care of. We have never had a moment in our lives where God has not taken care of us. And we can always point back to that.

And, you know, after a year and a half, he found out he got the job. It was the day we actually found out we're having another boy. And so that was, that was a really, really fun day. You cried a lot that day.