March 12, 2019 Show with Coleen Sharp on “Using the Gifts of Women in the Church Without Violating Biblical Roles (The God-Breathed Boundaries of Complementarianism)”

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Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century Gospel Minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the Church and the world today.

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Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming.

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this 12th day of March 2019.

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I'm thrilled to have back for a second interview, Colleen Sharp, who is producer and co -host of the podcast known as Theology Gals, and we are going to be addressing today using the gifts of women in the

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Church without violating biblical roles, the God -breathed boundaries of complementarianism.

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We're also going to be announcing the upcoming conference where Colleen is featured on the roster of speakers on the theme,

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Sanctification Through Suffering. And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Colleen Sharp.

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Thanks for having me again, Chris. I appreciate it. Oh, it's my pleasure. And for those of our listeners who missed you the last time or they're not familiar with your podcast, why don't you tell our listeners about Theology Gals.

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So, Theology Gals is a podcast on Reformed theology for women, and it's our goal to encourage women in the study of God's Word, sound theology, and discernment.

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And so we release an episode every week, sometimes more theological topics, and sometimes we'll do things that are happening in the

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Church or practical topics, specifically for women. So we do several different things on Theology Gals.

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And then we also have a Facebook group with over 4 ,500 women where we discuss theology and all sorts of things.

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I don't know why this keeps popping in my head, but ever since I heard the name

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Theology Gals, I keep thinking, and this may annoy you, but I keep thinking in the back of my head,

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Theology Gals, won't you come out tonight? Come out tonight. Maybe that should be the new theme song for Theology Gals.

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Well, we don't have a podcast on yet. You don't have a podcast on?

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I'm not sure what you mean. No, we don't have a song yet. Oh, a song. Okay, well, there's my suggestion,

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Theology Gals, won't you come out tonight? Come out tonight. And dance in the light of the moon. Anyway. Well, also, before we get into the theme, using the gifts of women in the church without violating biblical rules, the

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God -breathed boundaries of complementarianism, tell us about this upcoming conference, which is actually this

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Friday and Saturday in Freehold, New Jersey, Sanctification Through Suffering.

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Tell us about that. So, it's in Freehold, New Jersey, like you said, and we have several speakers,

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Justin Peters, who anyone who's heard him knows that he's just amazing, and Frank Mollis will be speaking also, and then a local pastor, and then during the breakout sessions,

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I will be doing a message for women in one of the breakout sessions.

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Great, and we will be repeating this, but if anybody wants to attend this conference in Freehold, New Jersey, get the information from strivingforeternity .org

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strivingforeternity .org and all of the details will be there, and for those of you who aren't going to look that up,

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I'll just tell you it's going to be at the Chinese American Bible Church on 65 Gibson Place in Freehold, New Jersey.

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That's the Chinese American Bible Church, 65 Gibson Place, Freehold, New Jersey. It will not be in the Chinese language.

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They are just using the facilities of the Chinese American Bible Church to have that conference this

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Friday and Saturday, March 15th and 16th. Also, our listeners should know that tomorrow,

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Wednesday, the 13th of January, my guest will be Justin Peters, who Colleen just mentioned, and then on Thursday the 14th, for the first hour,

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Joe Swozo, another speaker on the roster at the Sanctification Through Suffering conference.

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He will be my guest, and so I hope that you make it a point to listen in also tomorrow and Thursday, and make it a point to attend the conference in Freehold, New Jersey, if at all possible.

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Well, the theme at hand, using the gifts of women in the church without violating biblical rules, first of all, when did you begin to realize that you had the passion, the fascination, the interest, the drive, and, you believe, the talents to make yourself more public as a sister in Christ in the media, trying to assist other women in Christ, especially in their daily walk with Christ?

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When did you realize, hey, I think that the Lord might be calling me to do something above and beyond just what your average

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Christian might be doing, and there's nothing wrong with what your average Christian is doing, because that's what most

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Christians do, is they attend worship, they are blessed and edified and educated by the preaching and teaching, hopefully, that is, where they are going, and, of course, involved in private study and involved in personal acts of mercy and grace towards their fellow mankind, but you really believed that you should go forward in a more public role, and tell us about how that came to be.

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So, well, let me back up and just talk about my passion for orthology and the hope of being used in the lives of women.

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You know, back when I was a teenager, I had older women in my life that really invested in my life and continued to have that as I grew older, and then when

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I was in my, I think, early 30s, a lady that had really invested in my life and been an older woman to me, as we see

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Scripture encourages, she said, you know, you are the older woman now to younger women, you know, you're the older women to 20 -something -year -olds and teenage girls, and so, really, most of what

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I did was just in the local church in my everyday life, and I never, ever considered doing anything public like a podcast, and just through, really,

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God's sovereignty that some gentleman asked me if I'd be willing to do a podcast, and, you know, through prayer and finding a co -host and seeking counsel, found myself doing it.

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It wasn't something I'd ever considered before, so it really was the Lord's sovereignty, but I've had, for so long, a passion for women, and if you go into a

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Christian bookstore and you look at the selection for women, it's not great, and there really is a lack of discernment not just with women, a lot of times with men, too, but there's a lack of discernment with a lot of women.

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The most popular book for women last year was a book called Girl, Wash Your Face, and it's an awful book, it shouldn't even be considered

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Christian, but it is the most popular book for Christian women last year. It's used in Bible studies, it has a false gospel in it, it's full of law of attraction, and that's what we're up against, and I've just always had a passion for encouraging women in the study of God's Word, in studying theology, but I think sometimes women are maybe overwhelmed by the thought of studying theology, they think it will be too difficult, and I really want women to know that we should all be theologians as Christians, we should all be studying theology, because it's the study of God.

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So I've had the passion for a long time, and just through the Lord's sovereignty I ended up doing the podcast.

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Well, you know, I don't want to steal too much thunder from a listener who has already written in a question about the very book that you just mentioned, and just keep in mind the microphone here is very sensitive, so try to remain as still as possible while you're doing the interview.

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There's a lot of background noise coming in on occasion. But anyway, we have

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Susan in Setauket, Long Island, New York, who says,

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I listened to your podcast that discussed self -help guru Rachel Hollis' book,

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Girl, Go Wash Your Face. I have long mistrusted and opposed such easy -believism, and I totally agree with your perspective on that popular book.

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That being said, I wanted to ask you all why do you think that this type of drivel is still marketed exclusively towards women?

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It is the type of material that is so often incorporated into ladies' Bible study groups, whereas men's

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Bible study has far meatier theological subject matter to discuss regularly.

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I wanted as a pastor, wait a minute, I wanted as a pastor, I think she's missing some words here,

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I wanted as a pastor why this is so, well, maybe she thinks you're a pastor.

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Our guest is not a pastor, Susan, in Setauket, Long Island. But anyway, I wanted as a pastor why this is so, and his, oh,

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I see what she's saying here. I think she meant to say, I wanted to ask a pastor, or I asked a pastor.

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I asked a pastor, I'll just fill in that word, why this is so, and his answer was that men have different issues than women.

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Not much of an answer. What are your thoughts? Thanks, and this is Susan from Setauket, Long Island, New York.

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Sorry for butchering up your question there, Susan, but there was a couple of words missing.

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But anyway, yeah, so, do you understand her question the way

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I mumbled and fumbled with it? Yeah, I think I do. I think she's asking why this tends to be such an issue for women, for women's

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Bible studies. And I think the pastor that she asked was right, that men have their issues, too.

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I remember when the book The Shack came out, and that's another horrible book, and a lot of the men that my husband works with, the

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Christian men that my husband works with were reading that book. And in fact, one of them came to him and said, and we didn't know anything, it was brand new out, the book, and one of them came to him and asked my husband, can you read this and tell me if this is a sound book, and he read it and explained to some of his co -workers all the issues with it.

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So I think men and women do, we still see bad theology among some men, but I'll speak specifically to women.

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I think there's so many different reasons why I think we tend to, if you go to women's

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Bible study, we want to talk about some of the practical stuff, and so I think we tend towards some of those things that are going to make us feel good and motivate us.

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You know, a lot of times for young wives and moms, we want books that are going to tell us how to do better, and so I think there's that.

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I think part of it is just American Evangelicalism, where you have Moralistic Therapeutic Deism, which, if you don't know what that is,

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Moralistic Therapeutic Deism is you know, there's a God in the sky, he's there if I need him, he's not going to interfere too much in my life, it's kind of the

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American religion. But that seeps into Christianity, and I think that's exactly what's in Rachel Hollis' book, and exactly what is in a lot of the books for women.

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So I think part of it is just the problems that we see in American Evangelicalism in general, and women are just sometimes different people, we're sometimes more emotional, and we want stuff that's going to make us feel good.

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And Rachel Hollis' book is going to make you feel good. It's a, I mean, it didn't make me feel good,

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I had a hard time reading it, but it's kind of a, she's kind of your own personal cheerleader, yay, you can do it, keep going, that sort of thing.

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Do you know what kind of background Rachel Hollis is from? I've never heard of her before. You know, from what

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I can tell, I believe her father was a pastor, but I think it's just really kind of a typical Evangelical background,

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I think. But just to give, for those that aren't familiar with her, in her book she says things like, you're the captain of your ship, you're the hero of your story.

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She had a post on Facebook that said, it doesn't matter if you're Muslim or Mormon or Christian, as long as you worship.

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Really? That's what she said, yeah. And she claims to be Evangelical. Right, I mean, and now her book was published by Thomas Nelson, which is a

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Christian wing of a secular publisher, and it is a for -profit

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Right, it's not owned by Christians. In fact, most of the largest

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Christian publishers today, even those that began as Christian -owned, are not Christian -owned anymore.

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Right, a lot of the good, solid publishers, like Moody, are even non -profit organizations, so they function very different than a for -profit secular publisher would.

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So even though I think that it's bringing Thomas Nelson money, obviously, because it sold so many books, and so they'll sell it under the heading of Christian, but it's really not a

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Christian book, and a lot of people were very upset with us when we did the episode. We took we both read, my co -host

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Angela and I both read Girl, Wash Your Face, and then we took lots of quotes from it, and we lined it up with Scripture, and we showed that this is not consistent with the

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Word of God, it's contrary to the Word of God. And a lot of people were upset with us, because it's such a popular book.

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Wow. So I don't know if I answered the question, but I think there's a lot to be said. Yeah, but of course, even if a man who is a pastor is theologically sound and biblically faithful, he's not going to permit the women who are doing, at least if it's a church function, obviously you can't be a dictator and start banning books in the private homes of people.

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You can warn about them, but a pastor is not going to let it slide for the women in his church, if he is biblically sound himself.

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Right. We're going to give them some slack in having a heretic as their focus of study for the women's

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Bible study, because the men are going to have meatier stuff, because the men are more deep and all this stuff.

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So we're going to make sure that the men are reading solid, biblically faithful stuff. But as far as the women, that's obviously very wrong of a pastor to look at things that way.

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And also, it may be, and I've met pastors that I think would fall under this category.

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Of course, I'm not going to mention their names. But I think that men today are so paranoid over appearing to be or appearing as misogynists, male chauvinists and all that, that they're afraid of even a pastor might be afraid of dictating to the ladies study group what they're supposed to be reading or what they should be reading or what they should not be reading.

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I get that impression that that's probably why this circumstance may have developed in the scenario that Susan and Satalkit is discussing.

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I mean, do you have any comment on what I just said? Well, one of the problems

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I think with so many women's ministries today is they function kind of separate from the church.

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Yeah, that's really what I mean. Yeah, and really, it's not, when we're in a church, we are under the authority of our pastor and elders.

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And so, I hope, I really hope that in churches, that it's like in the churches that I have been, that if I pick a book that I want to do for the

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Women's Bible Study, that I buy a copy and I give it to the pastor and elders, and they look it over before we ever get to week one.

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And they check it out, and they make sure that it's a sound book, because a women's ministry should be under the authority of the pastor and elders.

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It shouldn't just be functioning on its own. Right. By the way, do you care to mention the church where you are a member?

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I don't say that publicly. Okay. Yeah, you get crazy stuff on social media and stuff.

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I'll say, so you don't want to bring all the craziness back to your own home church. But I know that you're theologically

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Reformed, though, right? Yes, I am a Presbyterian. I'll say that much.

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And I think, and I don't know, I know that in some Reformed Baptist churches, I don't know how it works in most churches, but I know in most

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Presbyterian and Reformed Baptist churches that there is oversight from the pastor and elders, and that when the

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Women's Bible Study wants to do a book, they submit it to the pastor and elders for approval first, and I think that that should happen.

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Yes, and of course, I am a Reformed Baptist, and I must quickly say that I do not claim perfection on the part of Reformed Baptists or even my conservative

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Presbyterian friends. We are not perfect, so if you find something crazy going on in one of those congregations that happens to be identified as Reformed Baptist or Presbyterian, that's just what you call the universality of sin on this planet.

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But I agree with you that Reformed Baptist and conservative Presbyterians typically would be more likely to have all of the study groups going on in the church submit what they're doing to the elders' approval.

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That would be typically more of a common thing. You know, one thing

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I wonder, maybe you would have something to say about this, Chris, but I hear from a lot of the gals in our group that their church has a women's

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Bible study, but not always a men's Bible study. And so I know that the gal that wrote mentioned men's

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Bible studies, but I know, even as I think about all the churches that we've been in, my husband and I, in the last, you know, 24 years, that a lot of times where there's sometimes a men's

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Bible study, but it seems like the women's Bible study is a little bit more consistent. It might be because even though there are a lot of women out there who are working outside the home, and perhaps even working in two or three jobs outside the home, it is more common for women in the

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Christian church to be stay -at -home mothers and housewives working in the home, which is obviously an extremely difficult job and a very vital and important job.

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And I think that may be the reason is that, you know, you have, I think, more of a percentage of men working outside the home and perhaps even two or three jobs and therefore you have men who don't seem to have the time to do those things.

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I could be off base on that. No, I think that's exactly it.

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I know even thinking about my own husband, when he's been in Bible studies and the men in the church, we've almost always been in smaller churches, so the men of the church will try to find a time that works well for them, and that can even be challenging where a lot of times with the women's

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Bible study, you know, get together at 10 a .m. on a Tuesday morning, because we're home with our kids, you know.

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We have another question from a friend of mine who happens to be a published author, and quite a brilliant sister in Christ, Latane C.

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Scott. Been a friend of mine since the early 1990s. Dr.

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Latane C. Scott from Albuquerque, New Mexico asks you, if you were teaching a class of teenage girls in a church, how would you articulate the value of complementarianism in such a way that they would be able to understand that and defend it to their teenage friends?

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That's a very interesting question. Wow, that's difficult, and I think, I have taught the junior high

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Sunday school class, and we had almost all girls, but I think that may even depend on the girl and where they're at and what they've grown up in.

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What I will say is that, I think especially with teenage girls now, when you have such so much egalitarianism out there, that being able to explain that men and women are created equal, but different and this is a good thing, it's not a bad thing.

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I think egalitarianism sometimes paints it as, it's a bad thing that we're created different, but it's a good thing.

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This is God, who is all wise, who created us that way. I'm kind of on the spot a little bit on how

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I would say this to a teenage girl so that she could defend it to her friends, but I think maybe just even emphasizing that point, understanding who we are created in the

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Lord. It would probably be wise for us to define those terms, complementarianism and egalitarianism.

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From my understanding, complementarianism would be the understanding that men and women are completely equal in value in the sight of the

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Lord. A man is not superior or holier or in any way better innately than a woman but God himself has assigned different functions and roles for men and women and the headship in the home and the headship in the church are two of the core areas regarding complementarianism.

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Whereas egalitarianism you have all different levels of it. You have some people who believe there are absolutely no roles at all in the home or the church, but then you have others.

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For instance, there is a local denomination here that's very dominant in Pennsylvania and I have friends in this denomination, the

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Church of God General Assembly. It's sort of a Wesleyan Baptist denomination founded in Findley, Ohio.

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But they have women pastors. I disagree with them strongly on that, but they do believe that a man is the head of his household.

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They do believe that the wives need to submit to the husbands. They didn't come to the conclusion of ordaining women from a liberal collapse of the church that started probably in the 19th century but really started to gain a lot of traction sadly in the 1960s.

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They would have like a Wesleyan background where that type of thing was permitted going back 200 years or more.

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But having said that the egalitarians once again are either trying to say that there are no gender roles at all or that at the very least women have the opportunity to function in every way that a man can in the church, even if they don't view it that way in the home.

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Did I accurately define those two according to what you understand those things to be? Yeah, I think that's correct.

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I think in recent years there's been some debate regarding what falls under the complementarianism label because of a debate regarding eternal subordination of the

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Son, which has to do with the Trinity and using a wrong view of the

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Trinity to argue a more extreme form of complementarianism.

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So that's one of the things that's come up where I do not fully agree with eternal subordination of the

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Son. So what we've learned is that there's even differences underneath the label of complementarianism.

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But I think what you said is definitely the basics and what I would agree with. Well thank you so much

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Dr. Latain C. Scott and it's always good to hear from you and I look forward to interviewing you again at some point in the future.

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It's always a pleasure interviewing you and hearing from you as a listener as well. We're going to our first station break right now and if you would like to join us on the air with a question of your own just like Susan and Latain did, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail dot com

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We ask of you to give us, please, your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

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USA. And please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

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Don't go away, we'll be right back with Colleen Sharp right after these messages from our sponsors.

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S's in the middle. I hope to hear from you soon. God bless you. Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen.

38:18

If you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours with a little less than 90 minutes to go is

38:24

Colleen Sharp, producer and co -host of the podcast Theology Gals.

38:30

She's also speaking at an upcoming conference in Freehold, New Jersey on sanctification through suffering on the roster with Justin Peters, Frank Mullis, Joe Suozzo, and this has been orchestrated by my friend

38:45

Andrew Rappaport of Striving for Eternity Ministries. If you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com,

38:54

chrisarnzen at gmail .com, and I also might add to this, if you, after the show is over, the live show, if you want to hear

39:03

Colleen's previous interview along with Andrew Rappaport on the actual theme, sanctification through suffering, go to ironsharpensironradio .com,

39:13

click on past shows podcast, and then type in Colleen in the search engine,

39:19

C -O -L -E -E -N, and since she is the only person I've ever interviewed by that name,

39:25

I'm sure that only her interview will come up. So, hope that you enjoy that and are blessed by it.

39:31

Before we go to any of our listener questions, and we seem to have them stacking up right now,

39:37

I want you to, just in your own words, continue forward with things that you believe are biblically appropriate for women in the church to participate in and orchestrate activities that do not extend beyond the

40:00

God -breathed boundaries, as our title calls it, of complementarianism. Things that you think that women have complete liberty to do with a clean conscience and unwaveringly lend their support and activity to.

40:19

Well, I think regardless of what those things are, I do want to start that I think that it should be done under the authority of the pastor and elders, and we know that it is only qualified men that are called to be pastors and elders, and one of my problems with a lot of women's ministries, like I said earlier, is that they kind of function on their own.

40:41

They do what they want, and I really do think there needs to be oversight by the pastor and elders, but I think women can teach

40:51

Bible studies and really do a lot of the things in the church that aren't preaching and being an elder, as long as they're under the authority of the church leadership.

41:06

So I think that there's quite a bit of liberty underneath that, and that's going to look different depending on the church and the size of the church and things like that, but I've even done some things outside of the church, like our homeschool.

41:24

I taught a Bible study for our homeschool moms, and so I've done some things like that also.

41:31

Did you have things in mind, Chris, that you were thinking of specifically? No, I was just curious what you thought.

41:37

For instance, I know churches that have a strict rule about an exclusively male eldership and headship, but they allow women to do things that I do not agree with.

41:55

I don't believe that women should be permitted to teach mixed adult

42:00

Bible studies that include adult men. I believe that women have the liberty, however, to get up and speak to mixed adult audiences about their testimonies.

42:13

I do believe in that. In fact, my congregation, where I'm a member, I shouldn't say it's my congregation, in fact an

42:20

Orthodox Presbyterian pastor friend of mine, Bill Shishko, every time I've ever said my church or my congregation, he always abruptly chastises me and says, it's the church of our

42:30

Lord Jesus Christ, Chris, it's not your church. The church where I am a member is strictly complementarian, but every time a woman is baptized, or even a girl is baptized, they give their testimonies.

42:46

I have no problem with that, or even at a special gathered assembly for a conference or something.

42:53

I've been to conferences where women such as Rosaria Butterfield has spoken, but she's not teaching and exegeting the scriptures for men in the audience.

43:10

But what are your feelings about that? So I agree that there are appropriate times for women to speak to mixed groups.

43:20

I've heard online, I've heard some of the messages that Rosaria has given to mixed groups or Johnny Erickson taught us, so I think that there are appropriate times to do that.

43:34

I'm fairly conservative when it comes to what happens in the actual worship service.

43:40

I'm not even really comfortable when they have women that go up and read scripture, but in a lot of Presbyterian churches, and it's been the case in our church, it's the pastor and elders that lead worship, so that's going to be obviously all men.

43:56

And I don't really, I think, I know some people will say that women can teach

44:03

Sunday school. I'm not one of those people. I think that that's still on the

44:09

Lord's Day and under the authority of the pastor and elders. Do you think that women have the freedom to teach

44:16

Sunday school to children, even when there's boys? Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah, and I've taught teenagers.

44:24

You know, I think you have to be really careful, I think, in some of the rules that people put out there.

44:31

I'm mom to four sons, and my sons are now 16, 18, 20, and 22, and there's ways in which

44:39

I've always taught them. And so I think that there are,

44:44

I think it's, I personally think it's okay for men to tune into our podcast. Our podcast is more directed towards women, but I don't have a problem if a man tunes in, and I know we have some men that tune in.

44:57

Because we're just, and I kind of say it's no different than when we have, what

45:02

I talk about on the podcast is no different than I talk about around my table, you know, on the

45:08

Lord's Day dinner when we have people over. Like Aquila and Priscilla did in their own household, where Priscilla was involved with the new disciples in their home and so on.

45:25

Yeah, so we're just discussing, I mean, my husband and I love having people over for lunch after church on Sundays, and we have wonderful conversations around our dining room table, and I kind of think of the things that I talk about on the podcast is very similar to the sorts of things

45:40

I talk about in that setting. So, you know, we're not out there, we're not preaching.

45:47

And the other thing is, for a man to listen to your podcast is a voluntary thing.

45:54

It's not like when you're in the confines of a church gathering, at the regular gathered specific time of worship and instruction and edification amongst the corporate body, where you are basically a captive audience there.

46:14

I mean, obviously you do have freedom to get up and leave, but it wouldn't be appropriate for a Christian to be doing that in their own church.

46:20

There's a difference between a woman getting up and teaching a man under those circumstances, because she's functioning in a teaching office in the gathered corporate worship, whereas somebody who is picking up a book written by a woman that's meant primarily for women, you know, there's no violation of the biblical prohibition to women teaching men, because this is a voluntary thing.

46:57

It's not like a man who is a Christian is obligated to listen to your podcast or to read a book by a woman, etc.

47:06

Right. We would distinguish the thing that we have no authority. The teaching in the church bears some authority.

47:13

Right. It's an authoritative teaching, but we have no authority. We're, you know, just a podcast.

47:19

Very similar to contributing, if you have a discussion on social media, you know.

47:25

There's no authority that we bear. Now, there is a controversy even amongst conservative

47:31

Christians and even amongst complementarians over whether or not the deaconess is a valid biblical office for a woman.

47:46

Even a very strongly complementarian church, Grace Community Church in Sun Valley, California, where John MacArthur is the pastor, they have women deacons or deaconesses, but the women have no, they have zero authority over the men in the church.

48:00

They don't teach the men in the church. They are servants in the church. So what do you feel about that?

48:06

Because I know that a lot of conservative and reformed churches and denominations and fellowships would not even allow the deaconess.

48:17

I know that Reformed Baptists typically do not, although there's no denominational hierarchy in the

48:22

Reformed Baptist movement. They are autonomous, independent congregations. But what is your view of that, the deaconess?

48:31

Well, you know, it's funny because my grandparents were very, very conservative, and my own grandmother was a deaconess.

48:36

But I actually tend towards the view that women shouldn't be deaconesses.

48:46

And at this point, I kind of feel like I'll just submit to the leadership in my own church that that's not something that they believe.

48:59

Right. Yeah, I wouldn't die on that hill, especially if the women are, as I said, the women who are deaconesses are not demonstrating authority or teaching men.

49:13

And I just lost my guess. Well, we're going to go to our midway break right now.

49:19

We're going to go early, and hopefully Colleen will call back. And our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com,

49:27

chrisarnson at gmail .com. And this is our elongated break because Grace Life Radio in Lake City, Florida, needs this time to air their own commercials and their own public service announcements.

49:44

So please be patient during this elongated break. Use this time wisely to write down questions for Colleen Sharp, and also to write down the information provided by our advertisers because the more you successfully and the more frequently you patronize our advertisers, the more likely we are going to remain on the air, because that will mean if you patronize them often enough, our advertisers, they will more likely remain our advertisers, and we absolutely depend on the funding that comes through our advertisers to exist.

50:19

So please write down the information provided by our advertisers and patronize them as often as you can during this break.

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And also write down questions for Colleen Sharp on the women's roles in the church, the biblically appropriate roles.

50:34

And then the email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

50:40

And as always, please give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

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USA. Don't go away. We'll be right back. Hi, I'm Stephan Limblad, Assistant Professor of Systematic Theology at IRBS Theological Seminary in Mansfield, Texas.

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I accepted this call to teach at the seminary because I'm firmly convinced that the people of God in the churches of our

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Lord Jesus Christ need to be firmly grounded in the truth of Holy Scripture. I'm excited to be teaching such subjects as the nature of theology and the doctrine of Scripture, and even the doctrine of the person and work of Jesus Christ.

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Our churches and our people need to be well grounded in these truths. Indeed, future ministers of the gospel need to understand these truths in order to proclaim them to all of God's people.

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If you want to learn more about our program, visit us online at irbsseminary .org.

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I accepted this call to teach at the seminary because I'm firmly convinced that the people of God in the churches of our

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Lord Jesus Christ need to be firmly grounded in the truth of Holy Scripture. I'm excited to be teaching such subjects as the nature of theology and the doctrine of Scripture, and even the doctrine of the person and work of Jesus Christ.

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Our churches and our people need to be well grounded in these truths. Indeed, future ministers of the gospel need to understand these truths in order to proclaim them to all of God's people.

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01:04:00

Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen. If you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours with a little less than an hour to go is

01:04:06

Colleen Sharp. She is producer and co -host of the podcast known as Theology Gals.

01:04:13

She's also on the speaking roster of an upcoming conference that we are going to be giving you more details on in just a moment,

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Sanctification Through Suffering, March 15th through the 16th. That's this Friday and Saturday in Freehold, New Jersey.

01:04:27

On the same roster with Justin Peters, Frank Mullis, Joe Suozo. And the organizer of this conference is

01:04:35

Andrew Rapoport, the founder of Striving for Eternity Ministries. But if you'd like to join us on the air with a question for Colleen regarding the roles of women in the

01:04:44

Church, our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com. C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

01:04:50

Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal or private matter.

01:04:59

Before I return to Colleen, I just have some announcements to make regarding special events, and one of them

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I just mentioned. If you'd like to attend the Sanctification Through Suffering conference this Friday and Saturday, go to strivingforeternity .org,

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strivingforeternity .org. This conference is being held at the

01:05:22

Chinese American Bible Church on 65 Gibson Place in Freehold, New Jersey. It's not going to be in the

01:05:28

Chinese language. That's just the facility that they're using as a venue for this conference. And go to strivingforeternity .org,

01:05:35

strivingforeternity .org for all the details that you need for this conference this

01:05:40

Friday and Saturday. Then coming up later on, May 28th through the 30th,

01:05:48

I am going to be, God willing, attending the East Coast Ministers Conference of the

01:05:53

Banner of Truth. It's always a phenomenal event, and I'm looking forward to this one as well.

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I Believe in the Holy Spirit is the theme, and the speakers are Jeff Kingswood, Terry Johnson, David Vaughan, a

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Reformed Baptist missionary in France, Stephen J. Nichols, who is the president of Reformation Bible College, the college founded by the late

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R .C. Sproul and Ligonier Ministries, Michael Morales, and Chad Vegas.

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That's May 28th through the 30th in Elizabethtown, Pennsylvania, at the Elizabethtown College. If you want more details on the

01:06:29

East Coast Ministers Conference, go to banneroftruth .org, banneroftruth .org,

01:06:34

click on events, and then click on East Coast Ministers Conference. And there are other conferences that they list as well, for different parts of the

01:06:44

United States and different parts of the world. They have a West Coast Conference, and they also have a

01:06:50

United Kingdom Conference, or at least one. I believe they have several

01:06:56

United Kingdom Conferences. But whatever conference is closest to you, if you prefer that one, click on that.

01:07:02

But I am going to be personally attending the May 28th through 30th conference in Elizabethtown, Pennsylvania, and I would love to see as many of my

01:07:11

Iron Trip and Zion Radio listeners as possible there. Please ask around while you're there. Where's Chris Arntzen of Iron Trip and Zion Radio?

01:07:20

And hopefully you'll eventually find me, because I would love to greet you and meet you and share fellowship with you during the breaks and so on.

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It's banneroftruth .org, banneroftruth .org. And then, coming up in December on the 19th and the 20th,

01:07:35

I am going to be once again attending, God willing, the Foundations Conference, another phenomenal conference in Manhattan.

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There's not many conferences in Manhattan, at least not ones that are theologically reformed and biblically faithful, and this is one of them that is.

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It's phenomenal. And the venue is so small, it's only about 200 people seating capacity,

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I would urge you to register as quickly as possible before they are out of room.

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It's just going to be mind -boggling. Andrew Quigley, and guess what? Paul Washer has been added to this lineup for the

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Foundations Conference in New York City December 19th and the 20th. To register, go to thefoundationsconference .com.

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thefoundationsconference .com Last but not least, if you love Iron Shepherd's Iron Radio, you don't want us to disappear from the airwaves, you look forward to the guests and topics that we highlight daily, some of which are never heard anywhere else, you love sharing the free, downloadable

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You don't have to believe identically with what I believe, you just need to be promoting something that's compatible with what I believe. If you are not a member of a biblically faithful local church and you're not prayerfully seeking for one, you're living in rebellion against God.

01:10:56

You need to rectify that situation. If you're having a hard time finding a biblically faithful church near where you live or if you're going on vacation somewhere and you want to find a biblically faithful church to wherever you're going or you have family, friends and loved ones in a particular area of the world and they need help finding a church, send me an email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com

01:11:20

and put something like I need a church home in the subject line, something similar to that.

01:11:25

I have lists of biblically faithful churches all over the world and have already helped a number of people find churches near them.

01:11:32

So please send me that email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com and put something like I need a church home in the subject line.

01:11:40

Now we are returning to our discussion with Colleen Sharp who is producer and co -host of the podcast

01:11:48

Theology Gals. We're discussing using the gifts of women in the church without violating biblical roles, the God -breathed boundaries of complementarianism and our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com

01:12:00

chrisarnsen at gmail .com Let's see here. We have a couple of, we actually have several listeners waiting to have their questions answered and they were right in front of me a moment ago and for some reason now

01:12:18

I can't find them. Here they go. We have Chris in Canton, Georgia who says,

01:12:25

I have recommended Theology Gals to my wife after checking out the content for myself.

01:12:31

It is refreshing to hear women talking about theology and help encourage other women to do so as well.

01:12:38

I often see events or ministries for women that are not focused on deep theological issues although I think it is okay to learn about cooking, cleaning, parenting, etc.

01:12:47

I believe all Christians have a responsibility to grow in the word. What are some ways churches can promote women growing in their desire to learn theology?

01:12:57

And then he has another follow -up question. Well, I think, first of all, if I'm talking to just women that are in the church, we've had a lot of gals who've gone to the church leadership and recommended that they do a different sort of study than has been done previously.

01:13:23

And I think that's one way. And there's a lot of, I think, theology, like I've said, can be overwhelming, like the thought of it if it's not something that you've ever studied.

01:13:34

But there's a lot of really great introductory books on basic theology that would be great for a women's

01:13:42

Bible study. So I think that's one way doing maybe a women's retreat where you have some speakers that come and talk about this.

01:13:53

That's another great way. And then I think church leadership can encourage doing some studies or maybe a

01:14:02

Saturday conference that encourages women in studying theology.

01:14:11

And then Chris says, I'm not saying that there are no women that have this desire, but I just don't see it as much as I see men.

01:14:19

For an example, some men at my church are walking through the biblical doctrine book from MacArthur and Mayhew.

01:14:28

What do you think you don't see that more, I think he meant to say, why do you think you don't see that more with women?

01:14:40

You know, I'm not sure. I think we talked earlier in the broadcast about the sorts of studies that women tend towards, and maybe women, that's just what they're presented with, and they're not encouraged to study theology.

01:14:54

If you look at the TheologyGals Facebook group, I mean, we're getting close to 5 ,000 women.

01:15:00

That's a pretty good size for a Facebook group of women that are interested in theology. And so I think we're seeing more women interested in theology.

01:15:08

But we also hear from women in their church that a lot of the gals aren't interested in studying theology.

01:15:16

And I think maybe we just need to challenge the women in the church more to that end.

01:15:23

And I think ultimately encouraging them in the study of God's Word, because that's really where it starts, and teaching them how to study the

01:15:31

Word of God. And there's a lot of great introductory studies out there that just start with that, teaching them to study the

01:15:39

Word of God. Well, thanks, Chris. I don't know for certain if you're a first -time questioner, but if you are, send me your full mailing address, because our first -time questioners always win a free

01:15:52

New American Standard Bible compliments of the publishers of the New American Standard Bible, which are found at nasbible .com,

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nasbible .com. So send me your mailing address if indeed you have never won a Bible before on our show.

01:16:05

This is just a quick reminder about the NASB. If your church has pew

01:16:12

Bibles that are falling apart or filled with children's graffiti, or perhaps your church has outgrown the version that you're currently using, or you have some theological problems with the current version you're using, perhaps it's too modern or somewhat antiquated on the other end of the spectrum, perhaps you'd rather have something other than the

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King James Version, well, please prayerfully and seriously consider the New American Standard Bible to replace all of the pews in your church.

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To replace all of the Bibles in your church. And if you don't have pew Bibles, well, please seriously and prayerfully consider getting

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Bibles for the pews, especially for visitors and unbelievers that might not typically lug around a

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please remember to tell them that you heard about the New American Standard Bible from Chris Orensen on Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

01:17:12

That's nasbible .com, nasbible .com. We have Lou in Sharpsburg, Georgia, who says, can you give any insight into Jen Wilkin?

01:17:25

I don't know who that is. So, Jen Wilkin is, she does women's ministry down at Matt Chandler's church, and I know some people in our circles have had some concerns since Matt Chandler is a continuationist, and there's been some theological concerns there.

01:17:48

But everything I have seen from Jen Wilkin I have been very pleased with.

01:17:54

She has a book that several of the girls in my group went through together, Women of the

01:18:00

Word, that really is one of those books, kind of introductory teaching people to study the

01:18:08

Word of God. And, in fact, I want to even recommend real quick, there is a gal named

01:18:14

Rebecca Womble that has a blog called Wise in His Eyes, and she looks at books that have been written for women, some of them not so great, some of them great, and she really does great reviews.

01:18:27

And that's a great place to look. Can you spell her name? Well, the blog is

01:18:33

WiseInHisEyes .com, so WiseInHisEyes .com,

01:18:39

and it's Rebecca Womble, W -O -M -B -L -E. And that's a great place to go, and she's done a lot of books.

01:18:47

Even if she hasn't done every book, she's hit a lot of the different authors. Great. Well, thanks,

01:18:54

Lou, in Sharpsburg, Georgia. Keep listening, keep writing in with great questions. I have Ted in Tuscaloosa, Alabama, and Ted says,

01:19:04

I only learned today that your presentation... Let's see, I've got to enlarge this.

01:19:09

I only learned today that your presentation at the upcoming conference will be a breakout session and not a plenary session.

01:19:16

I was wondering if this was a condition of your appearing at this event. In other words, was the prospect of your presenting to the entire conference on the table at one point but rejected because someone didn't want you teaching men at the conference?

01:19:31

Perhaps it's none of your business, Ted. I'm only kidding. Go ahead if you want to answer that question.

01:19:41

They asked me to come and do a breakout session for women. It's pretty much as simple as that. That's what was asked of me.

01:19:48

It was, you know, that's what it was from the start. Well, thanks,

01:19:53

Ted. Keep stirring up controversy with your questions on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

01:20:01

Well, do you think, in the vein of Ted's question, that there is legitimate concern that too many pastors that you and I would agree with on the vast majority of things, too many pastors and elders and leaders, are taking complementarianism too far and perhaps going too far into the realm of a patriarchal concept and robbing women of an appropriate use of their gifts in the church?

01:20:39

Do you think that that's really... I mean, of course, it goes on, but do you think it's a large problem in the church today?

01:20:45

We both know that the other extreme is the more dominant problem of women doing things that they should not be doing.

01:20:52

And, by the way, I have to insert in there, even though I would think that, from what we already said, you would understand where I'm coming from, and I'm talking to the audience now, not you,

01:21:01

Colleen. I believe that there are women out there that are far superior in their intellect, in their oratory skills, in their homiletical skills, etc.,

01:21:16

etc., to their own pastors. But that doesn't mean that because they have these gifts and this vast biblical knowledge, etc.,

01:21:26

etc., that they are permitted to preach and teach and have authority over men in the church. Just because they are perhaps innately superior in doing those things, it doesn't mean that they should be able to.

01:21:39

And I would think that you would agree with me as well, Colleen. But if you could, how big of a problem do you think it is that women are being prohibited from using their gifts in areas when they should have that liberty?

01:21:53

In my experience, I don't think it's a huge problem. I think that the patriarchy crowd is a small crowd.

01:22:02

I haven't run into it a lot in my real life. I think, just in my experience,

01:22:08

I don't think it's really that big of a problem. But it is a problem in some circles.

01:22:15

We've had... I've run into people, in fact, even a pastor, that didn't think that his wife should teach his sons once they turned 12.

01:22:28

Wow. And I think that's a bit silly. Yeah. And so that would be a more extreme version, obviously.

01:22:37

But I don't think it's a big problem. I think it's... I really think it's a small group that has a more extreme patriarchy view.

01:22:48

One thing that is very common, in my own experience amongst Reformed Baptists, that... It's not like I have a huge problem with it, but I have a raised eyebrow, perhaps.

01:22:59

In Reformed Baptist circles, I have seen, and there may be a lot going on amongst my own folk that I don't know about, but from what

01:23:07

I have seen, when Reformed Baptists conduct women's conferences, they more often than not have men teaching at them.

01:23:19

And sometimes I say to myself, you know, the Bible is clear that the older women are to teach the younger.

01:23:25

If this is an exclusively female event, why not have a woman running the conference? At least sometimes.

01:23:32

What are your thoughts on that? Yeah. And there... TheologyGals is actually currently working on a list of women speakers that we recommend for women's conferences.

01:23:44

That's something that we'll eventually be publishing on our website, TheologyGals .com. I think that women's...

01:23:50

I haven't actually ever seen that, so that's interesting. Most of the time, I've seen at women's conferences that they bring in women speakers.

01:23:59

So, I mean, I've heard a few times, I guess. A friend of mine in the OPC, they did have a man that came and spoke at their women's retreat.

01:24:07

But I do see a lot of women being utilized as speakers. I think that that happens more often amongst

01:24:13

Presbyterians. I think Reformed Baptists are just... have a little bit more of a stronghold on male speakers at all events, regardless of who the audience is.

01:24:28

Well, that's interesting. I might have to ask in my group and see what people's experience has been with that.

01:24:37

I'm not saying it happens all the time. I'm not saying it happens all the time. I'm just saying that it seems to happen more often than it doesn't happen, in my experience.

01:24:46

But we have to go to our final break right now. It's going to be much shorter than the last one. If you would like to ask a question of Colleen Sharp about women's roles, or even perhaps about her speaking engagement at the

01:25:00

Sanctification Through Suffering conference, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com. C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

01:25:08

Please give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence, if you live outside the

01:25:14

USA. Don't go away. We're going to be right back with the last half hour of our interview with Colleen Sharp on women's roles in the church.

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01:38:00

Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen and this is the last 20 minutes or so of our interview with Colleen Sharp, producer and co -host of the podcast known as Theology Gals.

01:38:12

And don't forget that Colleen Sharp will be speaking at a conference on Sanctification through Suffering March 15th through the 16th.

01:38:20

That's this weekend, Friday and Saturday in Freehold, New Jersey. Also included on that lineup are

01:38:26

Justin Peters, Frank Mullis, Joe Suozo and the organizer of this event is

01:38:32

Andrew Rappaport, the founder of Striving for Eternity Ministries. In fact, mark your calendars for tomorrow because another speaker,

01:38:39

Justin Peters, is going to be my guest tomorrow from 4 to 6 p .m. Joe Suozo will be on Thursday the 14th for the first hour and for the second hour on Thursday, my friend

01:38:52

Bruce Bennett is going to be joining us. Bruce Bennett, he's not involved in the

01:38:57

Sanctification through Suffering conference but he is pastor of the Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island, New York and he is going to be debating a

01:39:05

Roman Catholic apologist named Matthew Luke Broderick and that's going to be held

01:39:11

Saturday, March 30th at the Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island, New York at 6 .30

01:39:17

p .m. The theme is Purgatory, is it Biblical? So please, if you live on Long Island or you're able to get there, make it a point to jot down the information on how to get there and when to get there.

01:39:32

That's WOTChurch .com is the website that has all the information. WOTChurch .com

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and that's the Purgatory debate featuring Pastor Bruce Bennett, Evangelical pastor of the

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Word of Truth Church in Farmingville and Roman Catholic apologist Matthew Luke Broderick that's

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Saturday, March 30th at 6 .30 p .m. at the Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island. Go to Word of Truth Church's website

01:40:00

WOTChurch .com WOTChurch .com is the website.

01:40:06

And now we are back with our guest Colleen Sharp and we are discussing we are continuing our conversation on the women's roles in the church to be more specific using the gifts of women in the church without violating

01:40:22

Biblical roles the God -breathed boundaries of complementarianism. Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com

01:40:28

if you have a question chrisarnson at gmail .com We have Susan Margaret in Dauphin County, Pennsylvania who wants to know can you let us know about any attacks that you have received against what you do as a female podcaster from both sides both from the left from feminists and egalitarians who are trying to rebuke you for lessening in their minds the roles that women biblically have freedom to participate in and also from the right from those who might be more tending toward misogyny who don't think that you should be doing anything that you are currently participating in.

01:41:17

No, I don't think that we've received that many attacks that I can think of from the egalitarian side

01:41:25

I just don't think that we're on their radar very much but we have definitely received some attacks from the patriarchy side so anything that we aren't conservative enough so the fact

01:41:43

I said earlier that I'm okay with men listening to our podcast so they would take issue with that there's men that say we shouldn't have a podcast at all so just women shouldn't be doing that that would be probably the main things and actually one of the things that we've had disagreement with Chris, you and I were talking earlier about Rosaria Butterfield speaking appropriately to a mixed audience she's not preaching she's speaking about a topic she knows well in her testimony and there's people that have been upset with us for thinking that that's acceptable.

01:42:25

Could you repeat that? A question from a listener came in and I got distracted for a second so can you repeat that last thing that you said?

01:42:32

I'm sorry. You and I were talking earlier about Rosaria Butterfield speaking to a mixed audience and we've said we're okay with that she's not preaching she's part of a very conservative denomination the

01:42:48

RPCNA which my husband and I were a part of at one time and because we've said we're okay with her speaking to a mixed audience when she's not preaching she's talking about appropriate things to a mixed audience and so some people have disagreed with us and said that we're wrong to think that that's okay.

01:43:11

Okay, yeah. A lot of times folks, they act as if everything is a worship service in the confines of the corporate worship of a church and not everything is.

01:43:25

There are things that we have liberty to do outside of those parameters so I think that people are going way overboard in certain circumstances.

01:43:38

But we have Sue from Long Island, New York Can you share your thoughts on gifted women as advisors to pastors and men's leadership group men's leadership groups in the church?

01:43:57

I'm not really sure what she means by that I'm assuming she wouldn't mean as like an official office or you know a person who has some kind of authority but I don't know really

01:44:08

I'm not 100 % sure but if you could. I've heard recently some discussion where some pastors and elders authority in the church have gone to women in the church and you know asked them questions about how they can better equip the women in the church and those sorts of things.

01:44:29

I think that's very appropriate I don't think it's an authoritative role to go and ask people in the church you know, how can we better do various things.

01:44:40

You know, you might ask Sunday school teachers their thoughts on better curriculum or women older women in the church on how they can better do women's ministry in the church

01:44:52

I think that's appropriate. Yeah, just like even though a husband is to have headship over his wife and his wife is to submit to him a husband would be a moron and he would be irresponsible and he would be bordering on being a dictator in his home if he didn't ask his wife for her input on how that home is to be governed and you know

01:45:19

I think a husband is a fool if he does not give his wife the ability to make decisions on matters that she is more gifted and knowledgeable and qualified and I think that a husband is also a fool and borders on attempting to be a dictator if he does not let his wife have her way in making decisions in the house that really have little bearing upon his role as a husband and father

01:45:51

I mean, you know I love my father, he's in I believe he's in heaven now, so he won't mind me making this comment but my dad unfortunately never or rarely let my mother make decisions even on how the home was to be decorated and what kind of furniture they bought he never even let my mother back his car out of the driveway but, you know, people can push that kind of thing too far to an unbiblical extreme

01:46:26

Yeah, we recently our dryer broke down and we needed a new dryer and so my husband said, hey, can you go and do research and my husband knows that I'm good at finding good deals and researching products and so I researched and I said, this seems to be the best one, you know, in our price range and he said, okay, go ahead and buy it you know, and so there's lots of situations like that in my own merit

01:46:55

Let's see here, we have we have let's see we have

01:47:05

Christian in Suffolk County Long Island, New York who asks, what books would you most recommend that I recommend to women

01:47:16

I know in my family and in the church that would best guide them in using their gifts in the church

01:47:24

I think Amy Bird's book, No Little Women is a great place to start because that's what her book is about, this very thing and yeah,

01:47:36

I would start there, I think that's probably the only book I can think of on the subject that I would recommend

01:47:44

And how about beyond books Sisters in Christ, I mean we've already mentioned

01:47:50

Rosaria Butterfield and Amy Bird, any other women whose DVDs or perhaps their lectures or something are heard on some format on the internet that they can take advantage of Well I know that Jen Wilkin has some resources out there,

01:48:09

I'm not as familiar with her I do want to recommend just a great women's author that she's not as well known but she has just become one of my favorites and her name is

01:48:20

Christina Fox and Christina has several different kinds of books for women out there she has one actually that's kind of on suffering, it's about the

01:48:31

Psalms of Lament and she has one about idols that moms tend to have and she's got a new devotional coming out also so I'll just recommend her as a great women's author

01:48:47

Yes, I have interviewed Christina and you just mentioned something that I don't think that I've interviewed her on before,

01:48:55

Idols for Moms is that what you said? Yeah, it's about Idols of a

01:49:00

Mother's Heart, I don't remember the exact title off the top of my head but excellent book,

01:49:06

I think all of her books, I just got to read her new book ahead of time to write an endorsement that's going to be coming out on her devotional and it's again just excellent

01:49:17

Yeah, I interviewed Christina on A Heart Set Free, A Journey to Hope Through the

01:49:23

Songs of Lament Yeah, that's an excellent book So you've given me a catalyst or a push to or a reminder to invite

01:49:35

Christina back on to that book that you just mentioned before about Idols that mothers hold on to Let's see here we have another listener and let's see we have an anonymous listener who wants to know do you think that preaching is ever appropriate when an audience is exclusively female and obviously she's or whoever this anonymous person is saying that is it okay for a woman to preach even if the audience is exclusively female and I am making a difference between preaching and teaching because we already know that older women are supposed to teach the younger, but are women ever to preach and if you could perhaps even define what preaching is and how it is different from teaching

01:50:31

Well, as a Presbyterian and thinking about my own ecclesiology

01:50:36

I really do think that preaching is reserved for the worship service. Now people will say, well sometimes you go to a conference and it sounds like a sermon and I understand that but I think it's very difficult outside of the worship service to come up with an objective definition because I may do something that sounds like preaching to my children on a

01:51:03

Tuesday afternoon when I'm reminding them of the gospel and their sinfulness and so preaching itself

01:51:10

I think should be reserved for corporate worship, but I think as far as it may sound a little bit like preaching at a women's conference when a woman is speaking to a group of women

01:51:24

Now that's interesting what you just said because I strongly support open air preaching and that would be preaching outside the confines of a worship service and I know that Presbyterians even though it might be less popular amongst

01:51:40

Presbyterians, historically there have been open air preachers who are Presbyterians in fact even the ministry the evangelistic ministry to the

01:51:53

Jewish community, chosen people ministries, that was founded in the 19th century through the open air street preaching of Presbyterians in the

01:52:05

Bronx either the Bronx or Brooklyn, I can't remember right now, and when a rabbi got saved he founded chosen people ministries as a result, but I mean by the way

01:52:16

I also know that the folks that I with whom I am friends and that I know personally who are involved very heavily in street preaching they do not believe it is appropriate for a woman to do that so any comments on what

01:52:32

I just said? Well I think again you're defining preaching differently when you're talking about open air preaching because that's an evangelistic type of preaching so that's going to be very different than the preaching that we're talking about in a worship service

01:52:47

But would you share their prohibition, the most of the men that I know that were formed in someone who would not want a woman to do that?

01:52:57

I wouldn't be comfortable with doing it Okay Well I don't know enough about although I think it's appropriate for a woman to be sharing the gospel on the street

01:53:12

Well I guess the difference would be if a woman was doing some kind of open air speaking where only women were present

01:53:22

But anyway we have about five minutes for you to summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today before we go off the air so you can begin now at any time

01:53:36

Well I think whether you're a lay person in the church or maybe you are somebody that is a pastor, elder, deacon in the church

01:53:46

I think most important is finding ways to better equip women so that they can know the word of God because that's going to assist them in their faith and be discerning and one thing

01:54:00

I think about too with women is we're raising children I raised four boys so of course

01:54:07

I need to know the word of God well any mom knows that you're having theological conversations often when you have children they have all sorts of questions you know

01:54:18

I think of my son at four and a half was trying to understand the atonement and asked me if Jesus paid for all my sins how come he only died on the cross once you know he had these deep questions he asked and even for that reason but also

01:54:36

I think it's great in a marriage relationship for a woman to be equipped and be able to have theological conversations with her husband and I think

01:54:45

I would like to see the church do a better job of equipping women and also what we see in Scripture the older women teaching the younger women

01:54:53

I'd like to see that played out better than I think it often is. Yes so basically

01:55:04

I'm getting the impression that you think the church even though it may not be conscious in its and I'm talking about the conservative wing of the church the complementarian wing of the church perhaps is so cautious about women abusing their gifts and using them in inappropriate ways that they're really not striving enough and they're not being diligent enough to make sure that women are equipped to do these things it's not like a conscious effort perhaps with most pastors and leaders and churches but it may be just an unconscious an unconscious thing where they are putting the women's gifts in a secondary or tertiary or lower rung of importance in the body of Christ.

01:55:55

Yeah and I think it depends on the church because I think there are a lot of churches doing an excellent job but I think part of it is that we maybe haven't even expected much from women so we're not challenging them with theological books or teaching them how to really study the word of God.

01:56:17

Somebody a gal told me recently that she's been in the church her whole life she's in her late 30s and for the first time she went to a

01:56:24

Bible study where a women's Bible study where they actually studied it from chapter 1 through the end and maybe we're just not doing enough to equip women even to be studying so that they can be teaching other women and using their gifts.

01:56:42

We have CJ and Lyndon Hearst Long Island New York. We have time for at least one more question perhaps two but CJ says do you think that we have to be very careful about assigning gifts in our minds to one gender or another as being more innately a part of that person's being than the other gender.

01:57:07

I'm speaking of for instance I have heard women say during gatherings of fellowship when they hear deep theological discussions going on say things like well

01:57:20

I'm going to step out of the room because this is man talk. Is that inappropriate way of thinking?

01:57:27

No it's not inappropriate way of thinking but I think that actually identifies what has happened and I've heard that sort of thing so often.

01:57:36

Every one of us that are believers in Christ should be studying the word of God and studying sound theology and we shouldn't, when the theology discussions happen when we're in a group with the church, the men shouldn't be in one corner discussing theology and the women in the other corner discussing knitting.

01:57:58

Well then you're saying it is wrong then because... Yeah, I mean there are appropriate times where the women may be swapping recipes or things like that.

01:58:11

But it's wrong for a woman to automatically assume a deep discussion on theology is man talk or for a man to assume that as well.

01:58:20

I would say so, yeah. Well it has been a joy to have you back on the show

01:58:27

Colleen. I want to make sure that our listeners have all of the contact information that they need.

01:58:32

First of all, if you want to start listening to Theology Gals or if you want to recommend

01:58:38

Theology Gals to women that you know and perhaps your own wife, your own daughters, your own sisters, go to theologygals .com

01:58:50

theologygals .com and don't forget about the upcoming Bible conference,

01:58:55

Sanctification Through Suffering, which is being held this Friday and Saturday at the

01:59:01

Chinese American Bible Church on 65 Gibson Place in Freehold, New Jersey and that conference features

01:59:07

Justin Peters, Frank Mullis, Joe Suozzo, and Colleen Sharp. For more details, go to strivingforeternity .org

01:59:16

strivingforeternity .org Do you have any other contact information that you care to give Colleen? Yeah, and you can email us also at theologygals at gmail .com

01:59:24

and if you're a woman you're welcome to join our Facebook group and you can look it up on Facebook, Theology Gals, Reformed Ladies Discussion and Encouragement is the group name.

01:59:36

Great. Well, thank you so much. I want to thank everybody who listened today, especially those who took the time to write in questions, and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far, far greater