Miscellaneous Topics and Calls on Today’s Dividing Line

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Tackled some “that Pope Francis is quite the guy” topics at the start today, including the sighting of Rick Warren, paddling about in the Tiber River as well. Then took calls on various topics such as inerrancy and Tony Campolo.

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Greetings and welcome to the dividing line James White along with you on a Tuesday morning regular schedule this week
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But then that's it for a while I don't know if you've talked to to the still partially
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English one yet or not, but you'll have to have to do that because Next few weeks.
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I am gone far more than I am actually in Arizona I think it's about 75 % gone 25 % here or something like that I think
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I might be able to sneak one in in a couple weeks, but Flagstaff this weekend, Utah the weekend after that I understand that Jason was
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I didn't hear it, but Jason's was on iron sharpens iron talking about the talking about the conference like well, we haven't had the conference yet, but Anyway, hopefully also got to explain to folks the the challenges of ministry in Salt Lake City, Utah where he ministers up there, but So we'll be up in Utah pretty much all of next week and So if we have any
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Utah listeners, I'm not sure if we do or not we'll be up there then and then the next week
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I Drive back and then Fly right back out to Denver, and I will be speaking on Sunday, let's see that would be
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What the 11th yes, and no no the 12th Sunday the 12th in Denver and then
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I'm actually here for like almost a week and Then I go back up to the
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Denver Boulder area, and I will be speaking once again in Boulder with at Eric Ellis's Church on The 26th 26th of July, huh a flatirons
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Baptist Church. Yeah in Boulder, so Then I'm speaking two weeks straight at PR BC And then we've you know we really
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Need to get flight arrangements made For Zurich Kiev so on so forth because that's the end of August beginning of September Yes That's October Yeah Yeah, yeah
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So and and that reminds me to remind all of our listeners that's especially that trip to South Africa only happens because you allow it to happen and Last year we had
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Rudolph on to talk about it. Maybe we'll need to do that again but once again a very full plate of Debates and lectures there in in South Africa once again looking at Durban and Johannesburg and so if you've been blessed by The debates that we've done there in the past Then we want to get back down there again at least this year
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I'm not sure if we're gonna be able to do that two years running, but or three years running, but Well, this would be the third year running, so it'd be four years running anyway that That link which is sort of difficult to find at times we need to need to put a link like on the front page to the
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Travel link because it's I try to look for it And if just the only reason I can find is because I know it's traveled at HTML So I put that in but if you're actually looking for it
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I'm not sure if you can find it, but we need your assistance to be able to get there and to be able to Engage in those the second time some fellow on Twitter has asked me
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Are you familiar with Thomas Talbot Robert Perry and evangelical universalism? Nope never heard of okay, so we're done with that all right got that That's a girl
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Would love to hear a DL debate not in this life So we move on from there the
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Pope My goodness lots of Pope news Lots and lots of Pope news.
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I suppose we could start with the good part I just don't know how
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Roman Catholic apologists Are handling
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Pope Francis, I mean his global warming
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Air conditioning is bad Come here to Phoenix Francis yes, we show you air conditioning.
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Oh my goodness air conditioning is bad It's a bad thing that that we have air conditioning
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So much for Phoenix Because we there wouldn't be a Phoenix if it weren't for air conditioning these electronic devices tend to You know require some of that stuff
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Weird weird things, but and then if you if you If you work at Ruger, you're not a
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Christian, you know that So if you and if you own Ruger stock, you're not a
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Christian. I gotta get me some of that. Yeah So As many people pointed out in the same rather rambling talk the the
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Pope likewise faulted the Allies for not bombing the railways that took people to Auschwitz and Buchenwald and things like that Don't you need munitions factories to have bombs and planes
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But I I thought you couldn't be a Christian and do that It's just it's so painfully obvious that Francis is a
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Wild -eyed leftist Socialist almost commie type guy.
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I mean he really is I mean the the Folks that he has working for him that wrote.
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This is cyclical about the the wonderful George Soros created myth of global warming
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You're just you're just like really I Didn't think Al Gore was a Catholic But there you go, and I know that there a lot of Roman Catholic apologists tend to be much more conservative
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Liberals don't can don't aren't concerned about apologetics because they have nothing to defend They don't have any positive truth claims.
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That's that they're defending You know liberals are more focused upon paring down truth claims to the nap absolute minimum and so you know
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Conservative Catholic apologists are probably just sitting there going. Oh, man what and what we're seeing here is the the utter irrelevance of the doctrine of papal infallibility
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Because I can guarantee you even the This this papal encyclical is
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Is well, that's just that's not infallible. It's not defining anything, you know
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It's just it's just his personal opinion. We need to read it. We need to listen me to consider but but it's not infallible and you know, even if he said
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I define I Proclaim blah blah blah blah. There's always a way around it
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Papal infallibility, you know, we discovered this when we debated Tim Staples and Robertson Jenna's back and oh
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Wow, 15 years ago, which by the way, I put that Tim Staples debate up on your sermon audio just yesterday.
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Oh cool So it's up there. Well, oh It has to be an audio because they never bothered to give us that.
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That's right That was the hang up on you Situation with st.
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Joseph's. Yeah Anyway, you can listen to those debates and They both took place the same year as I recall and so So Janice and Staples defended papal infallibility in completely different ways
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Some Janice going so far as to say that Popes could be non -christians hopes could be heretics
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But that they would be kept from teaching falsehood Staples, of course tried to find a way to explain the various heretical teachings of the
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Popes and All the rest that stuff you can listen to those debates for yourself but what we learned very clearly from there is that the doctrine of papal infallibility is is
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Made out of paper mache. There is no substance to it push hard enough and it will give way and What we learned is the
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Pope is infallible except when he's wrong And you never know which one it is
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You you there is no way of knowing if this current what this current Pope is saying is actually true or not for hundreds of years
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You know So it's it's absolutely positively worthless It is it is is it's a joke
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It really is and what we've got now is we've got this very likable little old man from Argentina Who is very ecumenical and He goes, let's see, what's the date on this he goes to Where is the date on this
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June 22nd, okay, that was yesterday Pope forgive Catholic persecution of evangelical
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Christians and The Pope Pope Francis asked forgiveness Monday for the
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Catholic Church's persecution of members of a small Evangelical Church in Italy whose leader was excommunicated and followers of Brenda's heretics during the
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Middle Ages Francis made the appeal during the first ever visit by a Pope to a Waldensian house of worship
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Starting the second day of his two -day visit to Turin with a strong ecumenical message of Christian inclusiveness and fraternity
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The Waldensian Church is found the 12th century by a wealthy merchant from the Elm France Pierre Waldo Who gave up his belongings to preach a gospel of simplicity and poverty that condemned papal excesses
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He was excommunicated and his followers persecuted as heretics by Rome Waldensians today are united with the
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Methodist Church of Italy and claim 45 ,000 followers mostly in Italy Argentina and Uruguay During a speech to a few hundred people in the
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Waldensian Temple of Turin Francis decried how Christians over history Committed atrocious acts of violence in the name of their faith and the part of the
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Catholic Church. I ask your forgiveness I ask it for the non -christian and even in human attitudes and behavior that we have showed you
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Francis said somberly from the altar in The name of the Lord Jesus Christ forgive us Wow Again how does the apologists deal with this?
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Because the persecution of the Waldensians well -known reality in church history and we are talking
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We are talking We're not talking taking people's land they did that we're not talking driving people out of cities they did that we are talking wholesale murder
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Genocide on the part of papal armies We're talking driving the inhabitants of a village into a cave and Sealing them in and then lighting a fire at the at the mouth of the cave to suck all the oxygen out
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So they all die in the cave. I mean, that's that's what we're talking about. We're talking about The worst con we're talking
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Isis here From Rome's perspective. All right It was bad and it had it wasn't just for a couple years this was a long -term
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Project of The magisterium of the Roman Catholic Church. It wasn't well, you know, we had some hotheads over here
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No, no, no, this this came from the top which once again makes us go
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Okay when are you infallible again and When are you representing when are you the the vicar of Christ again, and when are you not?
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and if those guys back then were completely off the rails and We're using the power of the keys they invoked their succession from Peter as the
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Foundation and authority of what they were doing and now you're saying whoa. Whoops Sorry, forgive us for that I'm glad you're admitting that what was done back then was wrong.
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But don't you seem to realize that makes all your pretended apostolic succession authority rather Silly, which we've been saying for a long time now
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You you would think which is why again, I just what is it like to be? Jimmy Akin Tim Staples You know the whole cadre of Catholic apologists today to wake up every morning going
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Well, I wonder how my life's gonna get complicated today by Pope Francis, you know when when
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Ratzinger was around Yeah, a little different, you know, you knew he was that you knew where he was gonna land
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He you knew exactly who he was what he believed You know, he had been the head of the modern embodiment of the
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Inquisition so here You're good. He's still around, isn't he? Oh, you sure? Yeah, he's he's in he's he's the retired now fallible
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I guess Pope but anyway But yet now you get up in the morning and oh my what what has he said today
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What you know when he went back to talk to the reporters on the plane You know, did he say about homosexuals?
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Who am I to judge? It's like oh Wow, you know, it just it just leaves you going really and and then this whole this whole thing about Laudato si is the new is the new encyclical on the environment laudato si praise be to you and 80 pages 45 ,000 words is what we have here and You know total totally secular cosmology
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You know Total buy -in You know,
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I don't get into much of this On the program. There are people who will do a better job.
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I try to stay the stuff that is More in my wheelhouse more, you know something that not necessarily a bunch of other people are doing
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But I've done a fair amount of reading In this climate stuff and I'd like to introduce you.
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I'd like to cut through all the George Soros purchased Silliness and confusion out there all of the faked data
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Which has been documented over and over again, but since the media is complicit, they won't really talk too much about it
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All the rest that stuff I'd like to I'd like to point you To the earth's thermostat
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Yeah, yeah the big glowing thing up in the sky, which we see very clearly here in Phoenix right now
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Beautiful sunrise this morning though They're talking monsoon moisture What is this?
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We go from hurricanes To record temps for about 10 days and then straight into the monsoon.
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What is that? What is that this is this is one of the weirdest summers I can this this will clearly be the the new
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Rainforest within 10 years Wow the way it's going. Yeah Yeah, right
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Anyway, and we'll all have drowned Yeah, let's not talk about that. I was I was talking to a
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Muslim friend in Australia and He had such bad flooding there lost both of his cars had over a meter of a meter of Water in his house for like eight days
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That's a lot. Yeah, that's that's that's serious flooding. That's really serious flooding Anyway The point being that This this whole movement is part of this
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Well, I mentioned it in a I thought fairly important Facebook article
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I put up yesterday on the danger of mantras and How if you can get a few
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Hollywood celebs to say it a few times? You can now establish something as factually true and Everyone will just believe it, you know our culture today.
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I Made I made reference in the article and if you haven't taken a look at it. I'm putting a lot of stuff there.
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I Probably should cross post everything to the blog too, but it's there. Well, doesn't our stuff cross post?
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Yes, it doesn't we know if you post it originally to Facebook Yeah, if you post it to the blog then it drops into our
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Facebook. Yeah, I Wish there was some way to make it go the other direction Or have some way that I can do it fairly easily
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But if we look into that, that'd be good Well, you can always drop it in the blog and then it'll go to our thing and then you share it to your page piece of cake
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Seems a little backwards, but I bring up that you lost your ever -loving mind yesterday.
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No, I did not I Mean when I when I put up that article and there was and none of my friends said a word
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It was just like crickets. It's like yeah anyway Back to what we're saying here
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My serious concern is what we're seeing all across the world. It's obviously the case in Europe and everyplace else.
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I Can only see it as a massive lurch toward childhood on The part of Western culture.
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What do I mean by that? When I grew up there was a day. I remember the day
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I Remember the day when it struck my maturing mind
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That there were certain marks to becoming an adult to maturing
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You didn't cry when you fell down You didn't run to mommy and tattle on everybody if someone offended you if you're mature
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You did not have to collapse into a quivering heap of tears
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That mature people can be offended and still remain happy and functional and Don't have to take it to heart
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Now we live in a world where offending anyone is The worst thing in the world you can possibly do even if they're even if they're offended by truth
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You just don't tell them the truth and Now we have universities
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Where you actually have to create safe spaces for people
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Where they can go to not be offended or challenged. We are creating an entire generation of three -year -olds
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Except they're now 30. I think it directly has something to do Direct connection between this and the putting off of marriage
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It really does. I mean part of it is that Most of the guys are sitting in the base and playing first person shooter games, but there's a connection between those two things and The madness that is flowing from that.
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So if you get enough people Saying that you know Mankind only has a few decades left before the you know, we're all gonna die
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Because we're driving SUVs or something like that It's no wonder that people are starting to act rather oddly and strangely
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Exactly someone just tweeted this Just came up on on Twitter on Twitter.
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Whatever Twitter is likes. I'll start a new one called tweeter instead of Twitter If you are easily offended next door is a room where you can get your nose wiped diaper changed a pacifier a blanket a cup of Kool -Aid and a cookie
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That's exactly right and unfortunately, that's that's a sign that would
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Go well in most universities today. I Mean when Jerry Seinfeld when
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Jerry Seinfeld says I'm not doing comedy on university campuses anymore
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Because they'll come after you with with a pitchfork For offending them even if it was a joke
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Yeah, he there's yeah, that's the the level of immaturity is astounding
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Absolutely astounding. It really is. So anyway the Pope Yeah, the
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Pope's really really jumped off the off the I mean the stuff
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The stuff that's in this encyclical is straight. I'm really wondering if Al Gore, you know
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If Al Gore went in and wrote some of this stuff, I don't know. I don't know but along with all of this
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Leaving that to the side for a moment and just once again, may I just say to my my Roman Catholic apologist friends
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I'm sorry must be rough. I Am laughing in in a sense of derision.
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However, you guys the ones look you've been attacking solo scriptura all these years and telling us how wonderful it is to have infallible leaders all the rest of stuff now you're well, and now you get to pay the price for that and and the price is
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Price is steep. Yeah, it it it must be rough. No, no two ways about it Yes And and Jeff Robinson is is seeking a shameless plug for our outreach to Catholics during the
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Pope's visit to Philadelphia I was going to mention that But you know Jeff's obviously just a little bit on the impatient side
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And What that brings me to is there's going to be a
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Congress The world meeting of families in Philadelphia now what's happening
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Philadelphia in September the end of September September 22nd 25th somewhere around in there is
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World Youth Day and Some of you of the older of you will remember
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World Youth Day in 1993 in Denver, Colorado We we went up there and We Passed out tracks when the
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Pope arrived and we did two debates a debate with Today debate with Jerry Madetik's the first night at Denver Seminary the second night at a
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Presbyterian Church that two years later Would become famous for hosting
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John Denver's funeral Anyway That was the seven and a half hour debate on the papacy that Madetik's and I did over two nights
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Fascinating debate, but I think I do I think I did better later on down the road with Mitch Pacwa Primarily because it was actually after the first night of that debate someone at Denver Seminary Don't know who it was
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Came up to me and offered constructive criticism About how
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I was presenting my material and I took it to heart and it made a made a big difference
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I was you know, 90 93 was still only three years down three years into my debating career
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I was still a newbie at that time and So anyway, that was
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World Youth Day and The the Pope goes these things all around the world and this year it's in Philadelphia and So, you know they have all these people speaking and so on and so forth but what's interesting is
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On Friday the closing day. I'm reading directly here from an article Posted at Catholic Philly comm yesterday on Friday the closing day
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Cardinal Sean O'Malley of Boston heard of him and Evangelical pastor
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Rick Warren Will team up for the morning keynote before 14 more breakouts and the conclusion of the
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Congress. So Rick Warren is Going to be speaking with Cardinal Sean O'Malley at a
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Roman Catholic function Associated with the
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Pope's visit for World Youth Day And someone said well if he gets to challenge him, that'll be okay and I'm like, yeah, right the guy who refers to our
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Pope Yeah, uh -huh. Look folks. The fact the matter is
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Warren is completely totally Compromised on Rome done sign sealed delivered
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He's got you know, the little papal encyclical arms tattoo on the left arm, it's it it's done and You know facts are facts that's the reality you you move on you just you just recognize that The vast majority of non -catholics amongst
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Evangelicals are not non Catholics of conviction. They are non Catholics of tradition or convenience and That's why
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Rick Warren is out there in his little leaky evangelical paddleboat
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Paddling around in the middle of the Tiber River You know coming close to the far shore but you know not quite getting there, you know and and Saying oh, it's it's beautiful in there.
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Yes. I see you. Mr. Pope. It's it's great in there, you know paddling paddling paddling around Because unless you're convinced of the issue
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Of Why Roman Catholicism presents a false gospel the issues of the
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Reformation the issues of the sufficiency of Scripture the issues of the fact that this man This Pope this nice little old man from Argentina this nice little old socialist man from Argentina Bears Titles and authority
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That not only does Scripture never give but that are fundamentally blasphemous That he is called
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Holy Father that he is called an altar Christus is he is called the Vicar of Christ That's Father Son Holy Spirit right there in titles that he that he bears himself and has not repudiated now
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If he wants to come out repudiate those sayings wants to come out repudiate the mass Wants to come out repudiate the history of the papacy repudiate the concept of papal infallibility repudiate all the
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Marian dogmas Hey go for it. You want to see a revolution? You'll see it But he's not done any of those things and so If you're if you're, you know, just ignore all of that just close your eyes to all of that Close your eyes to history close your eyes to the blood on the hands there on me
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Oh, but he said we're sorry, but he still claims to be the Pope. He still claims to be the head of the
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Universal Church The only way that sorry is gonna mean anything is for him to say and you know what we have been incredibly arrogant to create this entire edifice of Theology Called the papacy and we now repudiate that join those two together.
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Whoo -hoo Ain't gonna happen I'd love to see it happen
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Prove me wrong, please Because I would it would be wonderful since I don't claim infallibility myself
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To be wrong about that and then to get to sit there and sit back and watch the result you want schism
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Wow That were that would be big that would be absolutely big but the point is that unless you understand the
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Reformation understand the issues of the Reformation are Focused upon those issues then you're gonna do it
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Rick Warren's doing now is Rick Warren ignorant of those things No, he just doesn't think they're definitional anymore And I know there are certain big superstars and reformed them that you know chum around with Rick Warren I don't know how they do it.
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I'm not even gonna bother to try to speculate But the reality is that this man is deeply compromised and it's not just purpose driven life this demonstrates it's a compromise at a very fundamental and foundational level and So, there you go he's gonna be sort of joining in the great celebration of the coming of our our
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Pope as he has put it and There there you go. So Huh?
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Speaking along those lines just basically just just sort of in passing here I Guess we can open the phone lines, by the way eight seven seven seven five three three three four one eight seven seven seven five three three three four one
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By the way, someone asked on Twitter. Well, what was the debating advice? Don't leave us hanging in the air.
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Well if you listen to those first number of debates I did I I crammed as much into the opening statements as I possibly could
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I Wrote them all out timed them practiced them so that I could get as much in as I could and Basically what he said was
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You need to establish a relationship with the audience need to establish a relationship with the audience and Literally starting the next night
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I did that I started off if you listen to the beginning of the second debate on Church history and the papacy the first night at Denver Seminary was the
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Bible in the papacy The next night I Started off with a joke about how in The church there there one of the stained -glass windows up toward the top of the church had the
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Alpha and Omega Symbol in it And I made a joke about how you know, I'm really sorry for Jerry how unfair it is that That he would have to debate here when you know the building itself is on my side it has the
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Alpha and Omega symbol up there and and people chuckled about it and so I I Cut back how much
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I crammed into the presentation slowed it down some and Since then I've learned what you need to do is you need to establish a relationship with the audience demonstrate your human being and then always
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Close your time With a summary statement always watch that clock
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So many of my opponents will just come blundering into the time limit just push
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Oh, and I'll finish up later as the beepers going off or something like that. You know us
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I don't do that Because I want to provide a means whereby what
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I say will be understandable and and rememberable and So again,
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I don't know who it was this guy came up to me and just in a friendly way said could
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I suggest this and He was he of course was right and that was
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Wow 135 Debates ago or something like that and I've taken it to heart ever since then so Anyways, just in before we take some of the phone calls just two other items very very briefly
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Many of us have known for a long long long long long long time that Peter Lightheart Really is not of us
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That that Peter Lightheart Is Again, I'm not sure if he's
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I wouldn't say he's necessarily paddling around in the Tiber. I Think he's set up his office about three quarters across the way on the
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Milvian Bridge You know ran some some cat5 cable and you know set up a nice, you know desk and and and just sort of Enjoys the view there
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But his end of Protestant Protestantism project You know, we a lot of us have been saying for a long long time that if he's going to be consistent, he just needs to just just Move on along slide that desk of you know, 20 more yards or in Italy meters
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To the to the West and Voila, you're you're sort of where you belong but not on our side of the
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Tiber Not really at all and he's making that pretty Pretty clear in the stuff that he's writing these days if you've been following any of that.
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It's It's pretty Strange then the last thing totally different topic that we can't really get into but I thought
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I'd mention it The The Number of articles hit today
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Islamic state offering sex slaves as prizes in Quran reciting contests now once again, my
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My Western Muslim friends will look at this and will
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Roll their eyes and say how horrible how non -islamic you shouldn't raise these issues this doesn't represent
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Islam, but to be honest and honest with the history of That is recorded in the
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Hadith in The Sunnah of the Prophet as you all would put it.
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Is this really non -islamic? I Mean I know there's one
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Hadith It's repeated dozens of times Between Bukhari and Muslim.
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I'm not sure if it's in Abu Dawood and so on so forth, but it's it's in both Bukhari and Muslim Where? Muhammad gave a woman
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To a man now. She had offered herself in marriage to Muhammad. He had refused but he gave her in marriage to a very poor man in return for memorization of the
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Quran and Like I said, this is actually the story that I've used as an illustration of how the way that I read the
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Hadith which was recording them into mp3 from text
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So there's no way to there's no way to skip anything So when you're reading a book and you come across the same story
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You've already read 13 times before you can just skip over it move to the next one You can't do that when it's recorded via mp3
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My My iPod is in my jersey. I can't reach back there to play around with it
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You just got to listen to it again. And so I mean, I I'm not trying to exaggerate to say
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That I think I heard that story Minimally 35 as many as 45 times it is repeated that often
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So you have precedent in the Hadith for the giving of a woman in marriage by Muhammad Based upon memorization of a portion of the
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Quran There isn't any question that Islamic law allows for sex with slaves and That women who are taken in war in jihad
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Can legally be used as sex slaves That's the Sharia Now that Sharia comes from the 7th century in Arabia but once you make that normative for all of mankind in all ways and it's based upon a a culture of military conquest well, then
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There you go What do you do about that? Especially since the the concept is well that the final revelations in the
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Quran override anything before that and the problem is the final revelations of Quran and the Quran come from the very period of time
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Muhammad has reached the height of his power as Prophet as general of the
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Islamic armies and so once again it what it illustrates for us is the vast difference between the
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Christian scriptures and the Islamic scriptures in the provision of a meaningful context and the reality of the fact that Christianity can cross all cultural and temporal boundaries whereas Islam has to in essence attempt to Erase those boundaries and create a an
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Islamic caliphate everywhere. So There you go there. There you go
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Islamic state offering sex slaves as prizes in Quran reciting contests
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Must not be anything in the Quran that says that's wrong or citing it and then getting a sex slave for having recited it might not really make much sense, so There you go.
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Let's get to our phone calls. Hopefully we have everything potted up and ready to go. So let's start off with Bob hi
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Bob Hey, dr. White, how are you? I've got something that I hadn't heard you talk about in a while I've just been listening for a couple of months, but it's about biblical inerrancy versus errants and I noticed that John MacArthur had a conference at the first of the year and he had a
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RC scroll some Some other people and I didn't even know this was a debate till three years ago when
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I went back from being in Baptist Church for many years to my home church Which is a
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Methodist Church, and I heard things that I couldn't believe Moses didn't write the pension not that it matters
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But I think Jesus thought that he wrote it and just all kind of liberal ideas and they kept quoting
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It was I was in the Suns could have kept quoting from this interpreters Bible commentary, right? Thank God I was born again in 79 and I've read many many commentaries
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But I never got my hands on that one because if I had have I don't think I would have any confidence in the
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Word of God, it's the most it's worse than something you'd read from the Jehovah's Witnesses or the Mormons or it's just as bad.
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It's right. It's totally out of the Christian spectrum total just liberals.
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Well, trust me Bob Interpreters would be considered mainstream by the vast majority of folks.
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I mean, I I recognize it is You're exactly right. It is way out there.
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But all that tells you is that the vast majority of What calls itself
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Christianity United States is deeply compromised when it comes to any Serious belief that the
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Bible is the Word of God and if you truly do believe that God has spoken truly do believe what
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Christians down through the ages have believed You're in a you're in a minor.
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You're in a small minority. You you really are I've that that's one of the reasons
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I think God forced me to go to a liberal seminary for my first master's degree was That's what
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I had to deal with and that's That's really I've said many times on this program that most one of the most dangerous places one of the most spiritually dangerous places for a person is a
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Christian bookstore because What you need to envision are coiled serpents on almost every shelf
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And that is especially true when it comes to the biblical commentary section because I saw many a person go into Fuller Theological Seminary with a with a
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Clear understanding of what they believed and they graduate with a master's degree in confusion Because they they had the the foundations washed right out from underneath them.
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They did not know how to evaluate liberalism and it's it's acidic and corrosive impact
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Upon a belief in the Bible is the Word of God and as a result they ended up leaving significantly less prepared to be a meaningful witness than when they had when they had enrolled and so that is the reality that has been the reality of the world that we are facing for a very long time and So yeah, that's that's the way things are
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Yeah, and you know, I I think you'd agree that this is not a an issue as far as Believing in the deity of Christ to go to heaven or his bodily resurrection
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But I think it's up there and I don't know whether to say that these people are heretics
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I wouldn't go that far but it just it seems to me that when when you don't believe in a literal
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Adam and Eve and They think that they they just represented mankind I just got through reading battle for the battle for the
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Bible, which has been out for what 40 years over 40 years It's it it opened my eyes to the to the even
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Baptist and all except maybe the southern Baptist and some independence all these people have fallen into this
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How important do you think this is for for the salvation issue? Do you think it actually plays a part in someone's well salvation?
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Well every every single denomination that has collapsed on the issue of the inspiration of Scripture has
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Eventually collapsed on everything else including the gospel the deity of Christ. They're not necessarily Identical to one another in the sense that I know people who do not have
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Who who have a what I would call compromised view on inerrancy But continue to believe in the deity of Christ and things like that But the issue is can they can they maintain that position consistently over time?
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I do not see how they can There are people that struggle to do so But the reality is
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I've said many times. I think that the work of the Spirit of God in a person's heart
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Results in a a trust in the Word of God and a belief in the Word of God and when
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I hear someone who is willing to question The the authority of Scripture and the accuracy of Scripture in place man's authority above that Scripture I have some serious questions as to the abiding validity of that person's
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Confession of faith, but Am I saying that a person who? Does not have as high a view of inerrancy as I am is of necessity unsaved
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No, but I would say they're gonna have a really hard time Defending that faith and standing on that faith when persecution comes
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Because unless you really believe that God has spoken what we're seeing right now what we're seeing in the denominations collapsing on the issue of marriage all goes back to a willingness to interpret
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Scripture in such a fashion as to Allow it to be errant and to say well, we don't really need to worry about what
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Moses said about homosexuality be and and he was wrong and the the Israelites were wrong about what they
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Believed about God and and even Jesus, you know, he was he was you know a person of his age and and so on so forth we see this happening and It all goes back to whether we have a clear word from God or not.
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And if you don't believe that we do You're gonna have to come up with some other reason for resisting
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The cultural pressure and I don't know what that other reason is other than well We want to we want to hold on to what we've had
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Well, why and and can you do so consistently that's that's really the question so you and when you agree that the the
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Orthodoxy of the church down through the centuries 1700 centuries went by before this issue really even came up this one pastor at this
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Methodist Church said What you believe this inerrancy that's that's a new thing. She's been around for a couple hundred years.
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Yeah exactly backwards Yeah, it is exactly backwards they're they're talking about the use of the term the use the term only came up once you had
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Modernism and people who were trying to hold together the idea of being a Christian yet questioning the validity of the scriptures
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But no one's gonna seriously argue and numerous books have been written on this that the ancient church
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Or all the way up to the modern period believed in an errant scripture and then now we've just come up with a new idea
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No, obviously the statements of the ancient church are very very clear on the subject and They just didn't use a term inerrancy because they they weren't responding to the modern
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Utilization of language and argumentation that that we're dealing with. So yeah, it's backwards That's that's that's what's being taught in liberal seminaries
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But it's not so you can't substantiate that by going back and saying ah, see Here's where Athanasius said that the
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Bible is actually an error or so on so you're not gonna find that kind of thing there is a a very consistent recognition of the
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Bible is the Word of God and inerrancy is Much is very much the the essence of what it was that they were saying.
50:07
So yeah Methodists especially have been rather sadly Compromised on that issue for for a long long long time.
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But hey Bob, we got some other folks got to get to Thank you. Hey, I saw you on the John Ankenberg 30 years ago on his show with the
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King James Version Well, I wasn't quite 30 years. It was 1995 but I love your your
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Greek and Hebrew knowledge and you're you're just you're doing a wonderful job. All right. Thanks Bob. Appreciate it
50:32
All right. Bye. Bye Yeah, I'm not it hasn't been quite that long. We're getting there. It'll be
50:38
Yeah, it'd be 2025 to for for 30 years because it was 1995. But anyways, let's go to Andrew.
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Hi Andrew Hey, dr. Lloyd fantastic to be able to talk to you. Yes, sir Well, I have to both blame and thank you for a small confrontation
50:55
I had with the pastor of my church over this weekend Okay Well found you
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Back just shortly before your debate with Baba and yarn Since then, of course then listen to everything
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I can get my hands on my debates and lectures and such But over the weekend we had a meeting with her and with her
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Yes. Oh, okay. Well, okay Already already starting off wrong.
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He's only been there since September and unfortunately in the vote I would be only be sent in both for electing her as the new pastor
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We were having a meeting based on starting a new
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Study over the weekend Bible studies over the weekend to which I was asked to move on in the middle of this she
51:51
Brought up the Bruce Caitlyn Jenner debacle and She proceeded in a single sentence to say
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God is love eight times in a row Say for a single verb in the middle where she goes and you can make the
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Bible say anything you want My eyebrows shot up and I Immediately mentioned.
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Yes. God is love But he is also you also without repentance from your sin and turning away from your sin
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It's a one -way ticket to hell as soon as I said that she threw her hands in the air did the whole
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Disgusted side of my role and just walked away well,
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I Don't know else to say other than When when you've got the wrong folks and leadership, what do you expect?
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You know, I'm sorry. I'm I'm still a part of that. That's ancient tradition that takes
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Include the pastoral epistles seriously, I can guarantee you she probably doesn't think
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Paul wrote the pastoral epistles and hence the the qualifications for the elder in the church are fairly straightforward and so that's where that that's where the foundational issue is and this is just simply a continuation a symptom of The kind of biblical interpretation that has allowed her to take that position that she takes
53:33
And that goes right with everything else. I mean Al Mohler pointed out in the response
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Southern Seminary provided to Matthew Vines that any church that has already collapsed on the issue of On the issue of men and women in the church and the roles of men and women in the church
53:56
Anyone who's Already compromised there is utterly defenseless
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Against the arguments that are being made by the quote -unquote gay Christian movement. And so So, yeah,
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I I don't know where you are there in in New York, but my
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Rather strong recommendation would be to be looking for a place Where That is very biblically based follows the biblical precepts very well
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But my question actually that I was going to ask you was and obviously you've answered it for me should
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I was thinking? With another perspective should I stay there with the
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Bible study and try to teach and bring people away from You know, they obviously
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I would say toxic use of the Twinkie sermons that she produces
54:58
She had someone else read the passage and then she might talk about it one time in a 30 to 45 minute.
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Well, I you know, I don't know Andrew I don't know why you're there, but most people are in churches like that because that's where they want to be
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I don't think that it's the call of most people to try to be Martin Luther in a in the middle of a modernized compromised
55:27
American Church my my general recommendation to almost anybody is
55:35
You go where the Word of God is honored and you run as quickly as you can from those places where it is compromised and It's it sounds to me like what you're describing is a is a very very compromised situation so if you found a place that where the
55:54
Word of God is honored then Be there be a part be supportive Because I think we're all going to be counting the cost of discipleship here in a very short period of time and you don't want
56:05
To try to do that amongst people who don't really believe that the Bible's Word of God in the first place. So Thank you, thank you
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Andrew god bless. All right, let's we're gonna we're gonna sneak everybody in here
56:20
I think Let's talk with Kyle Kyle down in are you swimming
56:26
Kyle? Are you in the part of Texas that is is still dry? We just look down on the lake that is much larger than it used to be.
56:35
Oh, yeah Luckily, we're we're we're Highlanders. So that worked out. Well, there is no such thing as a
56:40
Highlander in Texas in Texas Yes, they're called overpasses. Yeah See, I'm I'm going
56:47
I'm going to Flagstaff Utah and in Colorado and climbing mountains for the next month.
56:53
So no, I'm sorry You you don't you have no earthly idea No, I I understand.
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I I ride right I ride road bikes too and we just have to deal with the wind So, oh, yeah, that's our that's our version of climbing.
57:06
It's just right into the wind for three hours. Yep Yep, I hear you. The story is that's how
57:11
Greg Lamont got good at climbing. I don't know if that's true or not Now you got you got to go up and you got to get get out too.
57:17
But anyways, Tony Campolo. Yes, sir It actually it starts with that and it raised a question that I've kind of Just wondered about for quite a while and he used
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Matthew 25 40 in kind of a summary of well You know what?
57:35
Jesus tells us that you know We'd be judged by how we treat the least of these and obviously his direct line is that the people that he's changing his stance on the
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Gay Christians would be he would say are in that group of the least of these right? So he feels he's doing the right thing by that.
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The problem is I've always kind of struggled with Who are these brothers and sisters of mine?
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Just because I've had a hard time dividing up the group in my head And so, you know
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It's kind of you have Jesus and the angels coming and then you have all the nation and the nations are divided into sheep and goat but when
58:11
Jesus says He basically gives the exact same Standard to the sheeps and the goats and of course the sheeps and the goats
58:19
Actually, we thought is the sheep are surprised because they say when did we do this, right?
58:26
but if he says, you know, if you say group a and you say to group B, but you say it's how you treated
58:32
Another named group. Is that other named group embedded within? the sheep
58:38
I Think that's how I've always heard it. All right It just I Guess it just doesn't quite make sense.
58:45
Well, yeah, it is it is a difficult text There's there's no question about it.
58:51
And I I think most of the difficulty is in trying to relate it to other pictures of judgment and trying to a lot trying to make it cover stuff that really doesn't doesn't cover its point is that the the sheep
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Behave in such a fashion that there is a consistency between their profession and their life and Unlike the
59:20
Scribes and Pharisees who are always trying to get people to see what they were doing doing their alms in public saying their long prayers in public in the temple so on and so forth the the actions of the sheep who enter into the joy of their
59:37
Lord and and receive God's God's positive judgment upon them.
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They were just doing what they Naturally wanted to do because their hearts had been changed the religious hypocrites on the other hand
59:56
There is no consistency between the changed life and then their behavior and So it's it's it's not so much trying to say well, you know, there's already been a judgment beforehand and so you've got the sheep over here and so you're no and I don't know that I would argue with Campola's use of 2540 in the sense that we certainly should seek to Treat the brothers of Christ in an appropriate fashion obviously, the issue is is someone who is unrepentant their sin and in fact
01:00:35
Demanding that Christ's authority be denied in the defining of what sin is truly a brother of Christ in the first place
01:00:42
That's that's really the issue what and he's encouraging this behavior Which I mean a brother would call you back would call you to repent a brother
01:00:53
Wouldn't call it wouldn't call you to write in you what you're doing And so I think that you know, obviously obviously it's wrong
01:01:00
But I guess if that's one of those passages I had always and I'm trying to put And maybe wrongly so, you know names to faces
01:01:08
I guess when it gets right down to it, and so and that that can be troublesome But it's just you know, when I read that I sit there and say well, you know
01:01:15
If we're talking about an actual a literal event, you know, and and I'm perfectly fine with talking about, you know
01:01:22
This is a literal event you know and You would you would assume you have memory of your life because if you'd be rewarded for what you did while in the body
01:01:31
I mean it wouldn't it wouldn't be that Christ is rewarding you and then you go, you know, honestly,
01:01:36
I don't remember any of this and well come here Let me tell you about you know, I would assume that you know, our deeds follow us that we actually understand
01:01:44
We remember our lives definitely to an extent because that would be a source of praise forever
01:01:50
But you know, you're always like if you're standing there you're always like, okay his left or my left which one you like You're already headed that way
01:01:57
Right. They're like, yeah, well, you know, I think the point in Matthew 25 is that those who
01:02:06
Receive his approbation were those who? You know, when do we see you sick or in prison and come to you?
01:02:13
Well, they just consider it natural to minister to the rest of the flock when when when there were people in prison it was it was natural to take care of their families and and to go visit them in prison and and you know
01:02:31
Do what a lot of people today are having to do with Christians who are in prison in foreign lands and you know one way we can do that is
01:02:39
Helping with the ministries that specifically help the the persecuted church Barnabas aid and things like that Is one way to do that it's just natural it's something you want to do
01:02:52
Whereas there wasn't there wasn't that natural desire on the part of the accursed ones Another way of saying you'll know them by their fruit.
01:03:00
Yeah. I mean there's there is that consistency? Yeah, there is that consistency? Sure Okay. Yeah. Okay.
01:03:05
All right Okay, thank you very much Kyle and try to try to dry out a little bit down there in in Texas We'll see you later.
01:03:13
I will. All right. Thank you. All right folks. I do not know again what the schedule is gonna be like After this week
01:03:23
We may try to do some things remotely It's sometimes very difficult to do but at least
01:03:28
I know I'm not leaving until Friday Which means we should be here on Thursday, though It will be a packing day for me