April 1, 2004

The Role of Christian Apologetics and the Call to Give a Defense

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona, this is The Dividing Line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is Dr. James White, director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with Dr. White, call now at 602 -973 -4602. Or toll free across the United States, it's 1 -877 -753 -3341. And now with today's topic, here is James White.

And good afternoon. Welcome to The Dividing Line here on a, what is it, Thursday afternoon? Yeah, we'll figure it out eventually. It confuses me too. I'm not really sure why. But anyway, we are back and someday we're going to design a way that I can control my own headset.

That's what we're going to do. That's the next big thing, AOMN, on the list is I get to control my own headset so that I can fix it each time so it's just right because I can't hear myself really very much right now.

It's just I'm off in another world someplace and that's a little bit better. Anyway, that's what we're going to do. That's the next big thing. You can just put that on the list. And then you can join in with the Hate James White Society.

It seems to be a growing group these days. I was going to start off by saying up in this corner we put fluffy little clouds. This is where they live and pretty little squirrels live down here. Remember Bob Ross?

I remember Bob Ross. My wife liked to watch the Bob Ross painting things. She did some art stuff when we were first married and she was studying art in college and stuff. And so we watched the little Bob Ross and I was really sad when he died.

I mean, I look at that. The best I can do is stick figures. It really is. And so I look at his paintings and I just go, dude, that is really good. I'd like to have an original Bob Ross. I bet they cost a lot of money now.

But anyways, that's not the Bob Ross we're talking about. Some folks have been looking at the blog and that's sort of what I'm going to be talking about. And taking your phone calls today at 877 -753 -3341.

Just sort of wandering about today, dodging the various sundry bullets heading my direction. And there are a lot of them. As I mentioned on the blog, normally going to Utah is going into unfriendly territory.

I think it's going to be peaceful. I think it's going to be a vacation. It's going to be nice. I'm looking forward to it. But I've mentioned all of a sudden Bob Ross on the war path. And Bob Ross is, you know, I met Bob Ross I think in 1995 at the Christian Bookseller Association convention in Denver.

And stood around at the Pilgrim's publication table, booth, whatever you call those things at CBA. And he publishes Spurgeon stuff. Now, I imagine that's not easy these days because Spurgeon is now available electronically in every which format possible.

But he puts out real nicely bound Spurgeon volumes. And if you've seen a pastor who's got the whole set up, it probably came from Bob Ross. And I noticed after I put out The Potter's Freedom that some folks had mentioned that he didn't like, there was something about my view of regeneration he didn't like.

And to be perfectly honest, I just didn't pay much attention to it. I mean, you know, I don't sit around looking for battles to fight. I really don't. People, I'm involved in apologetics. We do apologetics ministry.

Therefore, we're going to know these things. But man, if I wanted to get into fights, I could do nothing but sit around web boards all day long. And just, you know, cross swords with every kind of internet nutcase on the planet if I wanted to.

And I do not. It's not enjoyable in any way, shape, or form. And so anyway, I just said, well, okay. So he doesn't like, you know, he thinks I'm a hard shell Baptist or something. You know, whatever. And I just ignored it.

Well, now that the Dave Hunt book has come out, people start forwarding me all this stuff where he's saying that I agree with Hunt and I'm a Pelagian. And I'm like, what are you? And then I just found out that he wants to debate the issue.

He put out these quotes from Spurgeon and Gill and Pink, and I agreed with everything they said. Yep, that's what I believe. No problem. And I want to debate that. And so as people have been saying in the chat channel, it'll be a real great debate.

He'll get up, say his thing. I'll get up and say, yep, agree with him. Sit down. We'll go with it. Great. What in the world is going on these days? I just, I do not, I cannot even begin to comprehend it.

Aren't there more important things? I mean, let me give an example. You know, if some of you think that I'm treating that far too lightly, I don't know what to say in a situation like that. I just don't find that to be a credible issue to even consider debating.

And aren't there some like more important things out there to be debating? For example, I found this very interesting. This was just a matter of days ago. There was the third annual Mormon Theology Conference was held up at Utah Valley State College in Orem, Utah.

And the title was Open and Rational Theologies Among Evangelicals and Other Christians. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Back that one up. That was the title of Clark Pinnock's presentation in Utah. Now, if you're not up on the names, Clark Pinnock is a scholar.

He was once reformed. His decline into abject heresy is well documented. And he really now, he's not an open theist, but an inclusivist, post-mortem evangelization, believes God has a physical body, obviously denies eternal punishment in the orthodox sense.

All the rest of that stuff has just completely gone out into left field and is picking the daisies out there. And it was fascinating to see the people who were going to be a part of this discussion of this group up there in Utah.

You had Clark Pinnock, open theist. Then you had Roger Keller, former Presbyterian, converted to Mormonism. I debated him up there in Salt Lake City. Dan Peterson, Brigham Young University, who said publicly on the air that he would debate me anytime, anyplace.

And when we then contacted him to do so, he did not even respond. He had his wife call us back and said he didn't want to. John Sanders, of course, who I debated on open theism and inclusivism in November 2002, I believe that was, in Florida.

Clark Pinnock, and then Dennis Potter, who I debated in Salt Lake City a year ago. And so, no, almost all, the only person on the panel that was going to be discussing at the end, that I have not actually met, talked to, or debated, was Clark Pinnock, interestingly enough.

And so, as this started getting out, of course, obviously the thought that crosses everyone's mind is, wow, this is interesting. What's going to happen when you start this kind of dialogue between people who are, well, let's face it, the Evangelical Theological Society could not get rid of Pinnock and Sanders.

And people like Norman Geisler had the guts to say, hasta la vista, I'm out of here. If you can't get rid of heretics, then there's no reason for me to be bouncing around here. And so he did. And so, interestingly enough, Richard Abanas posted a quotation, a citation from a Mormon message board, seemingly from someone who attended.

I would love to get the tapes of these things, see if we maybe can track them down while we're up there in the next couple weeks, because I'd love to hear some of this stuff. And one of the quotations reads, Pinnock definitely was comfortable with the idea of a corporeal body.

This is for God, of course. Seemed to think it was a given, considering the scriptures, actually, though expressed the feeling that many of his colleagues would not. Oh, really? Did have a problem with the idea of an anthropomorphic god, or rather a theomorphic man, but didn't seem to think it was anything that classed us out of the race.

Remember, this is a Mormon writing this. He was accepting of our view of social Trinitarianism, having read Osler's book on it. Overall, very appreciative of the LDS views and said they gave him a lot to consider, including how they affected his own views as far as the spectrum of belief.

Pinnock placed us between open theism and processed theology, sometimes closer to one, sometimes closer to the other. Definitely saw us as Christians, I believe. Well, I would imagine Pinnock would have to, given the definition of the term.

But here you have an excellent example of the degradation of meaningful apologetics because of the degradation of what calls itself Christian scholarship. That is, since these individuals are allowed to participate in such forums as ETS and teach at Christian colleges, even though, obviously, despite their very nuanced definitions, they really don't believe in inerrancy.

They don't believe the scriptures are clear enough to give us any type of meaningful theology. Clark Pinnock is unorthodox on almost everything you can be unorthodox on. But since they're allowed to remain, and this is because, quote unquote, the academy uses a worldly definition of truth, a worldly definition of what scholarship is, a worldly definition of how we are to do theology and how we're to do these things.

Because of that, now you've got these individuals dialoguing with the Mormons, and all of a sudden the Mormons are now in the spectrum. And this is exactly what they want, by the way. This is exactly what they've been seeking for.

There was some meeting, I don't know when, a number of years ago, when the Mormons decided, you know what, we're going mainstream, and so we need to have mainstream scholars. We need to send our young people off to mainstream schools so we can get Mormon scholars who have degrees to someplace other than BYU, and we're going to mainstream.

We're going to get in the middle of these things that we see the changes coming. Somebody saw it coming, and they made the changes. And so that's exactly what they want. They want this kind of dialogue.

And does this dialogue, does this kind of academic dialogue ever lead to a clarification of truth? Does it ever lead to a Mount Carmel and Elijah with the priests of Baal-type call for repentance? Or does it lead only to greater confusion?

Well, look at history, and the answer to that one is pretty simple. Very, very easy. And so here we've got this kind of thing going on, and another individual, a Mormon, posted a quote, and this is from The Most Moved Mover, published by Baker in 2001, Clark Pinnock.

Okay? So this is found in your local Christian bookstore. If God is with us in the world, if we are to take biblical metaphors seriously, is God in some way embodied? Critics will be quick to say that, although there are expressions of this idea in the Bible.

They're not to be taken literally, but I do not believe the idea is as foreign to the Bible's view of God as we have assumed. Is God in some way embodied? Critics will be quick to say that, although there are...

Hey, I just repeated it twice. I do not feel obliged to assume that God is a purely spiritual being when his self-revelation does not suggest it. It is true that from a platonic standpoint, the idea of a physical God is absurd, but this is not a biblical standpoint, and how unreasonable is it anyway?

The only persons we encounter are embodied persons, and if God is not embodied, it may prove difficult to understand how God is a person. That's from pages 33 through 35. And then another reference is made to the openness of God.

A biblical challenge to the traditional understanding of God. Pinnock, Rice, Sanders, Hasker, Basinger. That, of course, is an IVP publication, 1994. Well, you know, what can we say? When that kind of stuff is in the pages of Christianity Today, when that kind of stuff is being taught in seminaries and colleges, and these people are allowed to continue without being identified for what they are doing, and being what they are, they're in the midst of what is allegedly Christian education, then should we be at all surprised that the apologetic task of seeking to call Mormons to an understanding of who God is, not in some slow little, well, maybe if we can make them, maybe for a few generations, they can be a little bit less polytheistic, and then for a few generations, maybe they can just become tritheistic, and then for a few generations, you know, this kind of thing, and that's very, very, very common, by the way.

Very, very common for that kind of perspective. That's how we're supposed to do evangelism. And you wonder why you look at the New Testament, and that's not how the apostles did it. That's not how the Apostle Paul encountered those who taught falsehood within the church.

It just didn't work that way, and the amazing thing is, if you dare to bring that up, then people will say, oh, you think you're the Apostle Paul? You think you're somebody special? Well, you're just a schismatic and a hateful one at that.

And how do I know that? Well, because, well, like, you know, Timothy Enlow said on his blog this week, that myself and Dr. Svenson, and I would assume he would also include in here, Pastor King, because he threw that name out there, that we're radical, willful sectarians who hate unity and love division, despise correction and love our own egos, hate the world that God has made and love one of their own making.

Instead, they wouldn't know the church, Catholic or proper or humble biblical exegesis. If it came up and bit them, so blinded are they by their zealotry and pride and sin. They will answer for it someday, and fearful will be the reckoning.

Their condemnation is just. Ah, well, there you go. Like I said, we're starting the hate fan club next week on the website. You can sign up if you'd like to be a founding member or something like that.

Well, anyway, 877 -753 -3341. You know, I was thinking, and we're going to take our first phone call here in a second, but I was thinking, looking at the blog implosion of Mr. Enlow, it's a sad thing to watch.

I don't even recognize myself in his words anymore. There's quotes there I've never even seen before. And when you look at Angel's cartoons that we use on the website once in a while, what makes them funny is twofold.

First of all, you can recognize who it is because Angel's so talented that it looks like a picture. And secondly, the situation they're in, the words they're uttering, the context, the dialogue that is included demonstrates an error, but it has connection with something they've actually said, a position they've actually taken.

It's accurate to the truth. That's what makes it funny because you're bringing out an inherent contradiction and you're visually presenting it. And that's really where it takes talent and it takes insight, and that's why not a lot of people do what Angel does.

I don't even recognize myself in these caricatures that Mr. Enlow and his fans are throwing out anymore. I mean, anybody who knows me looks at that and goes, what is this guy talking about? I mean, just today, even Dave Armstrong.

Dave Armstrong is not my friend. He's really not. We don't get along very well. But even he had to take Mr. Enlow's task and go, excuse me, hello, anybody there? This is getting really ridiculous. And Mr. Armstrong knows no one on the other side has done anything even close to what Mr. Enlow is doing.

So it's a sad thing to watch, but it also illustrates a lot of things. And I think the reason that we even address those issues on the website is because here you have someone who once was considered a friend and a colleague, a bright young man off in the wilderness someplace, saying just the most outlandish stuff, even to the point where Catholic apologists are having to call him to task for being disconnected from reality.

And what caused that? What were the issues? That's where we can learn things. That's hopefully where everybody can pick those things up. 877 -753 -3341. Let's go ahead and start taking some of our phone calls as you're lining them up.

Don't forget, this weekend we're going to be up in Salt Lake City, so I mentioned that in the blog. Let's go ahead and go to the great state of Texas and talk with John. Hi, John.

Hey, James. I appreciate you taking my call.

Well, you know, I like that accent of yours. Are you from someplace other than Texas, like maybe Georgia? No. No? Okay. But you must be out in the real part of Texas, not just the Dallas type.

Well, I'm originally from a small little cow town. Yeah, I can tell.

I'm sorry. I'll stop doing the accents. Everybody always gets mad when I start doing that.

My question is, I attend a Calvary Chapel. And I'll give you a little bit of background study in the Bible about five years. But I recently finally gave up my own. Dr. Barnhouse. But I'm attending this Calvary Chapel.

I wonder what you think about. Because, you know, I hear a lot about free will. And yet we sing songs and we sing about being chosen by God.

And you'll pray that God will soften men's hearts and open their minds. Absolutely. Our prayers are always significantly better theologically than our theology is. But first of all, you're not the only one in your situation.

Because when I debated George Bryson on this subject back in 2002, there were numerous Calvary Chapel folks there. Of course, he is Calvary Chapel. And many of them, especially young men, came up to me.

And see, the good thing about so many Calvary Chapel churches is you've got this. You're supposed to have. And it is openly said that you're to engage in this idea of verse-by-verse study of the Word of God.

And that's why I started attending there.

That's right. And so you do that, though. And if you do it consistently, it causes you problems because it leads to certain passages. And no matter how hard you wiggle, those passages say certain things.

And you have to deal with them. And so there are many folks who have found themselves in exactly the same situation that you are in because they've studied the Word and they've come to this conclusion.

And there are different kinds of Calvary Chapels. There are some Calvary Chapels where I've been told you can find my books. And there are people there who would call themselves Reformed. But I've noticed in the publications, for example, in the Calvary Chapel magazine, I've seen a strengthening of an anti-Reformed perspective on the part of the non-denominational denomination and a promotion of Dave Hunt's stuff and things like that.

And so there are a lot of Calvary Chapels that have become very much opposed to Reformed theology. And there are a lot of folks that are looking at anyone like yourself basically as a danger. I mean, the ad that I saw in the Calvary Chapel magazine for Dave Hunt's book in essence said, when you see it sneaking in, and so someone like yourself would be considered almost someone who is snuck in or is sneaking in or should just be honest enough to go elsewhere basically with your Calvinism.

That's the case in a lot of Calvary Chapels. Now, I don't know yours, and I don't know where the staff is there, but that's what I'm seeing on the official level. And so basically, because of what I do and because of my need for consistency, I mean, if you're going to be an apologist, you need to be consistent in your theology.

You can't point your fingers at somebody else and say you need to do X, Y, and Z if you're not doing it yourself. And so because of that, I was in an inconsistent Baptist church back in the 1980s. And sometimes on a Sunday morning, I would get a sermon that would just thrill my soul.

But then two weeks later, I'd get a sermon that on a theological level was exactly opposite of what had been preached two weeks earlier. And I found myself sitting there going, doesn't anybody notice this?

Doesn't anybody else see this inconsistency? And it became a real problem for me because I had a hard time teaching in a Sunday school class not knowing whether the people who were listening to me were going to walk into a service and either hear what I just said affirmed or contradicted because it would happen both directions.

And I eventually could not handle that. And that's one of the main reasons that I ended up at Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. So really the issue comes down to a matter of consistency and a matter of whether you have the freedom to speak openly concerning the issues of the gospel, concerning those places where the freedom of God is involved, the glory of God is involved.

And that's really where it all ends up boiling down to is do you have that freedom to do that? And if you don't, then I'm well aware of the fact that there's a cost in making a change. I've never told anybody, well, you need to leave a church unless it was a church that was specifically rejecting the gospel of Christ.

If someone said, well, St. Mary's down the road or something like that, that's a different situation. And so my suggestion to you would be first and foremost to talk to the leadership. And that may, however, precipitate things faster than you want them to be precipitated.

Yeah, that may cause a problem.

Yeah, but you see, if you can't talk to the leadership, that in and of itself is a problem.

Well, I mean, not that I couldn't talk to them. I definitely could. And I've spoken to them before, just not on that subject.

No, but that's what I mean. I think there needs to be an ability to address this issue and to go to the word of God and to do so with freedom. And that's just the first place you've got to go is you've got to talk to the folks that are there.

I think whenever anybody is contemplating the possibility of leaving a church, we've got to do it, quote unquote, the right way. It's got to be done in a God-honoring fashion. It's got to be done without it's got to be done with a tremendous amount of humility.

I guess that's the most important thing you can bring to a situation like that is to humbly ask what the church's position is, why is it and if the position is, well, no, you can't hold that viewpoint and here's why, then you go from there to say, okay, can we look at the scriptures?

I'd like to know how you understand these things. And generally, one way or the other, either it's cut off very quickly, unfortunately, because there's not a willingness to do that type of thing, or sometimes, who knows, maybe the Lord can use that to get some conversations going.

But you've got to approach it with the utmost of humility. And if there are any bridges left burning, you've got to make sure you don't have any matches in your hands. You know what I mean? If you end up someplace else, but you end up someplace else with a completely clear conscience that you are transparent, open, God-honoring in everything, then that's the best way to do it.

Most people just don't know how to leave a church, and they don't know how to do it right.

And, you know, my theological background is, you know, I'm a baker in cycle three. I mean, these are all my backgrounds. And yet, all through that time, I've always had trouble with some of these verses that just didn't square.

And I recently received your book, Potter's Freedom, and the article, Escapito, whatever his name is, about the verses in, I believe it's 2 Peter, about the Master. And, wow, that just really did it. That was my only sticking point.

Well, I'll make sure to let Simon know that all of his efforts, and, of course, he did the writing, but myself and Mike Porter and Warren Smith, we all kept having to heap opprobrium on Simon's head to get it finished, because he had it done long before we ended up posting it, but he was, you know, he served one of those perfectionists at times and, you know, wanted to, you know, cross every T and dot every I.

So he'll be very thankful for that. You know, and it was extremely long, and that caused me a problem. I thought, you know, if this is something that has to go this much into depth, then they're just going to be twisting it around.

But once I got into it, and I realized where the people, and tied it into the new, you know, it just really opened my eyes to what Peter was saying.

Well, that's great. Well, I'm always very thankful to see any of our materials being helpful to folks, and, of course, it's very encouraging to me to see someone who is concerned about what the Word of God says and desirous of being obedient to that word.

My advice to you then is to, and I say this with all sincerity, is to patiently pursue the topic of discussion. It's not something you can just simply, in essence, dismiss. You can't hide it under the rug because it's eventually going to come out.

Be honest, open, humble, be willing to read whatever they want you to read, but also ask for give and take. And, you know, once you can, with a clear conscience, say, I have sought to the best of my abilities to honor God in this situation, and I am not acting on impulse.

I'm not acting on any type of pride or arrogance. Then, once, you know, you end up where you end up, you can serve there with a clear conscience.

That's always the best way to do it. Well, you know, that's...

Well, yes, it certainly does, but, unfortunately, there is that problem of abiding sin, and we all struggle with it. Well, John, thank you very, very much for giving me a call, and I'm glad the website was useful to you.

Thank you. All right, God bless. 877 -753 -3341. We have two more folks online, and we're going to take our break. Be back with your phone calls, 877 -753 -3341.

Homosexuality, Revisionist Teaching, and the Same-Sex Controversy

Such a rarity today. So many stars, strong and true, quickly fall away.

Under the guise of tolerance, modern culture grants alternative lifestyle status to homosexuality. Even more disturbing, some within the church attempt to revise and distort Christian teaching on this behavior.

In their book, The Same-Sex Controversy, James White and Jeff Neal write for all who want to better understand the Bible's teaching on the subject, explaining and defending the foundational Bible passages that deal with homosexuality, including Genesis, Leviticus, and Romans.

Expanding on these scriptures, they refute the revisionist arguments, including the claim that Christians today need not adhere to the law. In a straightforward and loving manner, they appeal to those caught up in a homosexual lifestyle to repent and to return to God's plan for His people.

The Same-Sex Controversy, defending and clarifying the Bible's message about homosexuality. Get your copy in the bookstore at AOMIN .org.

Mary as Co-Redeemer and Roman Catholic Views of Mary

Millions of petitioners from around the world are imploring Pope John Paul II to recognize the Virgin Mary as co-redeemer with Christ, elevating the topic of Roman Catholic views of Mary to national headlines and widespread discussion.

In his book, Mary, Another Redeemer, James White sidesteps hostile rhetoric and cites directly from Roman Catholic sources to explore this volatile topic. He traces how Mary of the Bible, esteemed mother of the Lord, obedient servant, and chosen vessel of God, has become the immaculately conceived, bodily assumed Queen of Heaven, viewed as co-mediator with Christ and now recognized as co-redeemer by many in the Roman Catholic Church.

Mary, Another Redeemer, is fresh insight into the woman the Bible calls blessed among women, and an invitation to single-minded devotion to God's truth. You can order your copy of James White's book, Mary, Another Redeemer, at AOMIN .org.

The Church, the Gospel, and the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church

This portion of the dividing line has been made possible by the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. The Apostle Paul spoke of the importance of solemnly testifying of the gospel of the grace of God. The proclamation of God's truth is the most important element of his worship in his church.

The elders and people of the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church invite you to worship with them this coming Lord's Day. The morning Bible study begins at 9 .30 a .m. and the worship service is at 10 .45.

Evening services are at 6 .30 p .m. on Sunday and the Wednesday night prayer meeting is at 7 .00. The Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church is located at 3805 North 12th Street in Phoenix. You can call for further information at 602 -26-GRACE.

If you're unable to attend, you can still participate with your computer and real audio at PRBC .org, where the ministry extends around the world through the archives of sermons and Bible study lessons available 24 hours a day.

The Pilgrim's Progress is not an easy way. It's a journey to the sun day by day. It's a walk of grace.

I love singing along to that. I talked to Steve this week. In fact, I should mention, hit www .audience1 .org. I've got a little brief article there, but he's got an article. He loves to sort of wander off into the controversial stuff, you might say.

He's got one there. You just need to go to audience1 .org and take a look at it and you'll enjoy it. Well, let's continue on with our phone calls, and we lost Larry. Larry was in Kentucky, and Larry wanted to talk about Hebrews 6 and 10, which is fine.

But we have Paul, I believe, in Springfield, Missouri. Hi, Paul. Hello.

How are you, sir? I'm doing fantastic. Spring has sprung into Slozark, and it's very nice on my patio today.

That's 82 degrees here, which ain't half bad, actually. No, not at all. Not half bad for us, especially since it was like 98 a couple days ago.

Anyway, what's up, sir? Well, you know, I was listening to the program, and I really enjoyed hearing that last call. Yes. It was so encouraging to me, his struggling heart desire to be obedient to it.

Mm-hmm. I just wanted to share a very similar circumstance of my own experience.

On the same subject. That was the part that just drove me. Yeah, exactly.

You know, it did that for me. I was in a Bible college here in Springfield, and I was working through that, and when trying to get some honest questions answered by my professor about the matter, I was branded a troublemaker.

That's not the first time that's happened. No, it's not, and there were other brothers who went through it as well. Anyway, I was a member of a Baptist church in the city, and I went to my pastor about it, and he pretty much took the same position.

I was confronted, and I didn't know anything about it.

I didn't either. I should probably tell my story, too. I didn't either.

What was interesting, I certainly could have gone over there, but I met a pastor who had a strong commitment to the doctrines of grace. He had been pastor in a church here for less than a year, and decided to join the church, and so that made two Reformed people in a church of 200 people.

Which can cause problems, believe me. I am well aware of how that works. Yes.

But, you know, that was ten years ago, and thankfully, by God's grace alone, we saw God do a wonderful work to know the truth in a systematical format. He just preached through, and it's just a wonderful thing that the vast majority of the people are on the same page.

Oh, believe me, that I know. That I know.

Certainly, we're not without warts by any means, but I just want to encourage the man, everything you've done.

Well, I hope so, too. In fact, that's going to be a tremendously enjoyable time, and I always love to get to meet folks who listen to The Dividing Line. They're an odd lot, however.

I listen to my computer.

It's a strange thing, but hey, you know, on the cruise, we wear nice, fancy clothes to the formal nights, and we actually clean up pretty well.

Yeah, we're not bad for a bunch of geeks. No, no.

All right, man, thanks for listening. All right. God bless. Yeah, you know, I fully understand that. I'm going to kill this thing. I hope there isn't anybody from the ASPCA around, but there's a little fly-type thing in here, and I think it just lost its life.

Anyway, I think they're a part of the curse anyways, don't you? I'm going to do some theology on that. Anyway, I didn't know what a Reformed Baptist was. And by the way, lines are open at 877 -753 -3341.

I hope Larry didn't, like, you know, drive off the road or something on a cell phone or something, if you'd like to call back. Then again, how would he be listening? I think about it while you're driving.

That's the one group of people we don't end up well, I guess we have had a few drivers call. They just must have been calling just for the fun of it. They weren't actually listening to the program. That's odd.

Anyway, I guess you could listen to it on a satellite if you're, like, really rich or something. Anyhow, I had never heard of Reformed Baptist. I was at a Southern Baptist church, and I remember there was a Berean Christian bookstore right next to the college where I was a student.

And back at the Bible counter, where you would actually buy Bibles back in those days, that's where you'd also get, you know, the imprinting and stuff like that. There was a tape rack, and I remember just looking over at this tape rack, and I saw a tape on election from a guy named Don Fry.

And I pulled it out, and I looked at it, and I Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. I had never heard of Reformed Baptist Church. And the Berean that I was at didn't have that little handbook of denominations.

And so I went to another Christian bookstore down on it was about 7th Avenue and Osborne back then. It's now moved out to 32nd Street and Bell. Anyway, I went in there, and they had the book. And so I looked up Reformed Baptist the first time I'd ever even heard of what a Reformed Baptist was.

And so, you know, I didn't know. And I remember the first night I attended, it's funny. The pastor's wife at our church has an incredible memory. I mean, it's just not fair. She can remember anyone and names it didn't die names and all sorts of things like that.

And they're indestructible little boogers. I'm having a I'm trying to right on the air, I'm attempting to what am I doing? I'm taking Dominion. That's what I'm doing. This thing probably weighs about, you know, one thousandth of a gram, and I'm trying to take Dominion.