EP 48 – UKRANIAN PASTORS FROM PHILADELPHIA AND NEW JERSEY REPORT ON THE WAR #savinggrace #ukrainewar

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It's a great picture for our kids to see that this world needs a saviour. We don't live in a, you know, okay world.

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We live in a world that kills each other and hates each other. That's the reality of this world.

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And the grace of God is when we live in a...

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How do you say it in Romanian? I guess a normal... A normal, yeah, set off.

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Like in this country, right? It's the grace of God, basically. And we have to be thankful for it.

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Yes. My name's

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Average Joe. I got a big group of pastors and guests here today. I'm gonna do something a little different.

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We're gonna start and just go around and everybody's gonna introduce themselves. Why don't you start right here? Alright, hi,

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I'm Tim. You guys know me. Why don't we go right to this guy here? My name is Ion Ustenko.

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I was born and raised in Ukraine. Came to United States in 2000.

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I have a family, a wife and five kids. And I'm a pastor of Ukrainian church outside of Philadelphia.

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My name is Anatoly Sakon. I was born in Ukraine too. I came to United States when

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I was 21 years old. I have a family, three kids, three grandchildren.

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And I'm a pastor of Ukrainian church in Milan, New Jersey. My name is

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Denis Sychkar. Also born in Ukraine. I was nine when I moved here to the

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States. I've grown up in Philadelphia. I am one of the pastors at First Ukrainian Baptist Church in Philadelphia.

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Married two daughters. One's three and a half and one's going to be born,

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Lord willing, in February. Congratulations. I'm Jeff Cleaver, the senior pastor here at Cornerstone.

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And I'm Ivan Solero and I'm one of the elders here at Cornerstone. And through God's sovereignty,

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I got to meet Ion and invite Ion to come here and tell the story of his ministry and their ministries.

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And what's actually happening politically in Ukraine. And what are you so excited to hear from these guys about today?

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I mean, we did a little prep and there were so many areas. What do you think the top three things that we can tease the audience with to kind of tell them what to listen for a whole hour?

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Right. I think their background is just really amazing and intriguing.

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It's really edifying in understanding how they started here and from their background, where they're coming from, from Ukraine, the lessons they learn from all that and what the future lies in terms of spreading the gospel.

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And it's important that as brothers from different areas come together and really understand and have a respectful view through their lens of what's going on.

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Jeff, what are you looking forward to the most? I want some help understanding politically what's happening in the

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Ukraine with the war. Why is there a war? What's the end of this? And what should we as Christians be doing in terms of prayer and encouraging the brethren and how to think through these political issues with the

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Ukraine? That's really good because we're always looking for Christian perspectives from the news and we don't get it.

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We don't get it. Yeah. So what's new? What's on the home front there, guys?

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Which one do you guys want to start with? Just give us an update on what's going on in Ukraine and with the war.

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How's that impacting Christians over there? Well, first of all, thank you so much for inviting us.

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It's a pleasure. And I want to thank everyone who's listening or watching for all the help we are getting from America, from this country.

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It's very important for us. It's very important for all the brothers and sisters who still live in Ukraine.

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You are saving lots of lives every day by sending us military equipment, by praying for Ukraine, for churches, for Christians, for just a nation.

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So thank you. Thank you very much. It's very important for us. Anatoliy, what do you think the perspective is over in Ukraine right now from Christians?

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What are they praying for? They pray for God to bring the peace back to our land.

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They want to end the war. They want to end war on their terms.

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Our country is a sovereign country and we would like to stay that way. God gave the land to Ukrainian nation and we would like to keep that land that God gave to us.

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We don't want to have anything extra, but we want to live peacefully, have a democratic country, have freedom in our country.

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We strongly believe in these values. There's a lot of Christians in our country, a lot of believers.

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And even the war showed us that people rely on God. Even those that never prayed before may not even have any clue about God.

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They were praying when the war happened. So for our nation, we want to have a peace that's fair to us and we're looking for help in the

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Western world because we cannot fight alone Russia. They're so big and so strong.

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They've been preparing their country for this war for generations.

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It's not just happening. Yeah, I think Jeff pointed out that we hear a lot of conflicting information about Ukraine and Russia and you, but you're right at the source.

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I mean, you grew up there when it was the Soviet Union even, right? You got our memories of that.

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And you mentioned to us before we came on that Russia today is the same as Russia in the same

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Soviet Union era. I don't think that's the perspective we get on the national news.

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Can you tell us a little bit about that? Yes, you're right. Russia did not change.

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There may be a phase change and the people ahead, but the mentality, they didn't change.

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Back to the Soviet Union, the way that country was built is to oppressing other nations.

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It probably does know that during the Soviet Union, everyone was supposed to speak

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Russian language. All other languages was forbidden. There was actually laws put in place to completely delete the languages, destroy the culture of every nation, not just Ukraine, but all other 14 republics didn't really like that.

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Actually, they hate that. So as soon as the Soviet Union collapsed, then all those republics went free.

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They didn't want to stay in the union with Russia. But the Soviet Union was always run by the

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KGB. That's a system, almost like a military system, that run that country.

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And now it just transformed. Now it doesn't call KGB, they call FSBAT. But it does exactly the same.

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They control and they want to destroy

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Ukraine. Putin said when he started the war in February of 22, he said,

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I want to denationalize our country. It means to destroy Ukrainian heritage, destroy

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Ukrainian language and the Ukrainian mentality. So nothing has changed from the time there was

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Soviet Union. It's still the same. And Russia, Ukraine is not the only one country.

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There was Moldova before, there was Georgia. There was other countries.

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They started the war in different regions. There was Chechnya, they occupied. We all know this war.

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They've had a three -time war until they completely occupy that country.

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So the pattern did not change. It's all the same. Wow. What don't we know about Putin that you know because of your people on the ground there?

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What would we be surprised about? Because you've been in America, how long? 30 years?

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30 more years. So you've got people back there. What's your perspective on Putin? What aren't we seeing in the news about him?

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The cruelty. And Putin is very goal -oriented person.

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He publicly said to and announced that the biggest mistake that happened in this century that the collapse of the

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Soviet Union, his agenda to rebuild back Soviet Union.

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And to do that, he has to occupy all the republics, countries that was on that time.

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So he has a goal. It's not about protecting

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Russia. He has a bigger goal than what we think. We think that we can make a peace with him.

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We can kind of like be friends with him. But he has a bigger and going farther agenda to just occupy

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Ukraine. What if he was replaced or say he just retired? See that Putin himself, he used to be part of the

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KGB. And the second to him man that everyone is saying that he might become the president of Russia if something happened to Putin would be

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Norishkin, which another KGB general. So it's controlled by the system.

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It's not even controlled by the person. We probably, and I know this is probably true of myself and maybe some others out there listening.

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We have some ideas of what we think the KGB is. But why don't you tell us what the KGB is? That's a system.

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It's more just a military unit. It's a system that hears, controls, people mind.

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They infiltrated to jobs, schools, they're everywhere.

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But the most important is that it's a propaganda that's filled people's mentality. So not just the politicians are the one who live in that system, but so does the

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Russian nation. They are the one who's saying that Americans are bad,

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Ukrainians are bad, Europeans are bad. Why? Because they think differently than us.

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We are the superior people. We should control it. It's very similar to fascism in Germany.

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We are the ones who should be, our values the most valuable. Christianity in West, it's not a

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Christianity. We are the true Christians, the bearer of faith. We should bring our values to other world.

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And that's the system that's getting not just to the political world, military world, but also to the people's mind too.

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So that's, I don't think most of us even know about orthodoxy, whether it's

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Russian orthodoxy or Greek orthodoxy. What's the difference between that? And you guys are

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Baptists, right? Correct. Yeah, what's the difference between a Baptist and a Greek or Russian orthodox from a theologian?

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It's, I mean, it's kind of, it's an Eastern church similar to Catholics. It's different than the

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Baptists because we're part of the Protestant movement. It's more like, you know, controlled by the one person.

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But the biggest problem, they're very big controlled by the government.

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They're controlled by the president of Russian Federation. They're part of that system.

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During the Soviet era, most of the priests in the orthodox church would be

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KGB agents. They had to be, go to their school and be part of their system.

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Otherwise, you will not be able to become a priest. What do you think about orthodoxy, Jeff? So it sounds like it's more of a state church, but would your average

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Russian orthodox guy living in Russia believe in the

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Bible? Or would they believe in, say, evolution? It would be hard to say what they believe in because it's a very secular church.

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Okay. So people goes there not because they truly believe in something, but because it's a church of your country.

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Right. So you go there because you born Russian, you are part of that country and Russian orthodox church is a part of your tradition.

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So you got to go there. So per se, if it been that way and it still are, if you convert to Baptist or to Pentecostal, they consider that you left the faith.

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Wow. So Western world is not, in their idea, is not a true

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Christians. Wow. It's almost like a demonic West. You know, you're taking away the truth, the value to Christianity.

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You're not a Christian, you rebel. So Putin wouldn't submit to Jesus Christ.

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He calls himself Russian orthodox, supposedly Christian, but he hasn't bowed the knee to the

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King of Kings. So his loyalty and his bedfellows are people like the

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Ayatollah of Iran or the North Korean dictator. He's happy to call them on the phone and bring their troops in to help him.

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So he's not a Christian at all is what you're saying. Correct. Yeah.

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And probably many of the Russian people are not born again. So many of orthodox people, they would go to church twice a year.

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Okay. For the main holidays, Christian holidays, like Christmas and Easter.

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They would not have a Bible at home. Okay. They would never read a Bible. So they would say that they believe there is a

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God, but everything else is up to the church and the basically government religion that was created, let's say.

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So their identity is in the church or tradition. Yeah. That's the problem.

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And Jesus says in John chapter 3, you must be born again. So that's the new birth that God gives to an individual through faith in the

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Son of God. It's not something that is just by being born Russian or being identified with the state church.

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One must be born again in order to be saved. I have a question for Dennis because you pastor a church in Pennsylvania here.

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Do you see sort of any sort of deprogramming that happens to people who are coming into your church first?

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And how tough is that if there's deprogramming?

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In what sense? In the sense of coming from a Russian orthodox background. Now they're coming to your church.

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Now they're seeing the gospel, reading it. There's a freedom behind it for the first time.

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And then whatever traditions they may have already have, that programming there now is starting to change.

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How has that affected your church? Yeah, certainly. So I'll say even some of the

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Ukrainian orthodox, say followers, right? They believe that or from back in the

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Soviet Union and even now that Protestant churches are somewhat of a set, right? Where they're,

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I mean, that was even one of the nicknames used for those that were Baptists or Pentecostal and so forth.

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And so what they will essentially, first, a couple of things.

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They'll say, you know, baptisms are free. Like, what is that? So typically in an orthodox church, you have to pay.

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One of the conversations that I recently had was with a gentleman. And I asked him, you know, do you go to church?

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And he goes, I don't go to a church. He's Ukrainian. He said, I don't go to church because it's all about money.

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And they just want to take money from me. He's like, I have four kids. And the first three I had to baptize as a child.

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And I needed to pay the priest, you know, pay the priest for the funeral, pay the priest for baptism and so forth.

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Wed, I'm sorry, wedding. Wedding, yeah. And, you know, so I told him, you know, baptisms are free in our church, you know.

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And it's based on believer's baptism. So there's certainly a lot of deprogramming that happens.

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And to Anatoly's point is, they believe that going to a

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Protestant church is essentially kind of, I'll say, being a traitor to the faith of the fathers.

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Or their parents. But when you ask them, what is that faith? They can't define it. They can't explain it.

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They don't, they don't have anything that's substantial. It's just a matter of, well, that's what we subscribe to.

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And so therefore anything different would be, you know, kind of frowned upon. Well, take us behind the scenes.

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What's happening in the church in Ukraine? How has the war affected people getting saved, baptized or in your churches as well?

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Is the Lord doing something through this to bring the light of the gospel? Well, I would like to mention that Ukraine has the largest

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Christian population, the born again Christian population among Europe and Russia.

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So we have lots of Baptist churches, Pentecostal churches, charismatic churches and others.

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And Ukraine were able to enjoy religious freedoms, like no other country.

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Even you guys are more limited to what you can do. We found out in 2020 when they tried to lock us down.

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We had to be like meeting in secret. Although we were wide open, but the government would have had us locked down.

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So did you just say the most Christian or evangelical in all of Europe? Yes. So you think of England, right?

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That used to be the sending nation of William Carey and David Livingston. Not any longer.

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It's less than 1%. But the Ukraine is the stronghold of Christianity in all of Europe and Russia?

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Yes. Wow. And actually many of even now, even today, pastors who are serving in Russia, at some point they came from Ukraine as missionaries.

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Wow. It makes me think this is a demonic attack on maybe a good nation. It is. It is.

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And then, you know, behind Ukraine starts Asia. And, you know, we are able to send missionaries throughout any country, basically, because we are able to get into those countries.

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And many European countries, citizens and American citizens, they are not allowed to go there, only because you have the wrong passport.

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Right. So you're able to send missionaries. Yes. So since the war began, I don't know if you're able to say, so feel free not to answer.

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Have you been able to go back? And what did you see on the ground, as far as the churches?

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Yes. So since the war began, I've been to Ukraine four times. Okay. And we keep close connections to our brothers and sisters, to our churches in Ukraine.

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We have many people coming from Ukraine, from other churches, different regions of Ukraine, of believers and non -believers.

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So church were able, and still plays a very big role in helping and serving

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Ukrainians in Ukraine and here as well in the United States and other countries like Poland, Spain, Italy, where lots of Germany, where lots of Ukrainian refugees went.

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So we support in any way we can. And I'm talking about Ukrainian church right now in Ukraine, right?

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People who had to flee from their cities, villages, towns.

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Churches were filled with refugees like sleeping on the floor on the mattresses.

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Wow. For like the few first days after the full invasion happened from Russia.

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So church was able to help with food, clothes, you know, roof for those people.

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And they were able to share the gospel. So many churches who opened their doors to those who are in need, even though some of their members left and fled, especially younger families with little kids, they left the country.

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But because of new people who they were able to serve and share the gospel, they came, they stayed, they were born again, they got baptized.

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So we see a big number of unbelievers becoming

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Christians. And same thing has happened here, actually. Lots of people who came and they didn't go to church or they knew about the

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Jesus and the Bible, but they never were serious about it because of what they had to go through.

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And because they saw the hand of God upon them through all this time, and they were served by multiple churches throughout their way, even in Ukraine and then

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Europe and then here, they decided that, yes, we want to serve this

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Jesus, we want to serve this God who was protecting us and who saved us and who carried us to this point.

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So, yeah, we have, over the last two years, we probably baptized about 50 people who came from Ukraine here in the

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United States. That's awesome. I would imagine more, you know, from an

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American perspective, less gratitude. These people have all this gratitude. I would imagine myself answering questions like, well, why does

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God allow all this war? Would you hear any of that? Or is it just people are just so grateful to survive?

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You know, it's amazing. We never hear that. People are thankful to God and they don't say where God is.

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Well, some, yes, but like most of the people, they say that we saw the hand of God.

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We just, we were able to experience his work in our lives. We are thankful that we are alive, even though they lost homes and businesses and some lost their relatives.

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But amazingly, they don't hold God responsible for that. They saw the evil and they understand that evil doesn't come from God.

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So that's, that's probably why. How does that, how does that, how does that shape the way you expose maybe your children to evil?

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Does that, I mean, do you want them to see the like, I think Americans, we've got this thing called helicopter parents.

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We don't let our kids go near anything. What do you think of that perspective?

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Well, Dennis, why don't you talk about military personnel that comes here and our children are able to see lots of guys without limbs.

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Yeah, sure. So one of the ministries that some of the church members in our church are involved with, there's an organization that brings over wounded soldiers or soldiers that have lost extremities and they go through rehab and surgeries here in the

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States. And they're always welcome to join our church for services.

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Some of them are willing and some of them, most of them are not. And so they get exposure to the gospel a lot of times for the very first time here in the

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States. But certainly the children, so my daughter's three and a half years old.

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When they see those that have been wounded, they are surprised.

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They don't know how to act. So there's a learning lesson there, the ability to kind of talk through the fact that, hey, this is a person, right?

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And that they are very much loved by God. They might look like, you know, a little bit different than you or they don't have maybe a hand or a leg at this time, but God loves them.

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And also in addition to that, you explain what happened, right? Why? And it's because of evil and because of the impact of sin, right?

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And so you kind of drive back to the point of, because of sin, these are all the different consequences, right?

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And it starts with something simple, like, you know, maybe stealing and maybe not as visible of an impact and then it moves all the way to kind of missing limbs and then death, right?

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So there's a full spectrum of evil that we're experiencing or the

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Ukrainian people are experiencing, right? From being robbed of a childhood, robbed of a place to live, right?

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To essentially loved ones that have died. And now there's, the number of widows, the number of orphans continues to grow, right?

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Every day that number is growing. And as a church, we are directly responsible for taking care of them.

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Yeah, tell us more about those. You have a deep appreciation when you come to this country, we take it for granted that this is, we can speak politically, we can speak religious things, we can speak and actually, you know, get our personal perspective on things.

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But under the umbrella of God, regardless of what happens between you're coming from a war -torn country and then us here, we're still brothers in Christ.

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And that is, that's an amazing, amazing thing. We may not have as much appreciation of that.

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And part of what your ministry does is to say, hey, you know, this world is not what you think it is.

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And we're learning as we go along there to help that.

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Because this next generation that's coming up now, which they're fairly naive about what the world really means out there.

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And they're, unfortunately, the narratives they are accepting is, you know, social media. And, you know, videos and like that.

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And they give one type of perspective on what's going on there. So there's a great need for your churches to go ahead and penetrate there and start to change culture, so to speak, about how they can look at our

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Lord. And I know that must be very tough at times for you guys.

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Do you do a lot of social media things like that? We don't. But you're right.

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It gets emotional a lot of times. Yes. How about since Anatoli, you're like a grandpa.

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You guys are all kind of different ages. Was Ukraine a lot different when you were there when you were nine years old compared to when baby

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Dennis was there at nine years old? I think so. And see, I grew up in a, most of my age, it was a part of the

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Soviet Union. So it's a big difference. I grew up to Brezhnev, Fondropov, Chernyanko.

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That's the leaders of the Soviet Union. Then you are old. I remember

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Gorbachev because he had the scar thing on his head. You can't even imagine in school.

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I remember when Brezhnev died, they in school made a whole school like sit and watch the funeral, which was like four hours.

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Almost like a worship, the worshiping of God. The leader of the Soviet Union was almost like a person that, like your father died, like you have to worship.

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Anyone that says otherwise, like different, that you will be prosecuted.

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So the Christianity in Soviet time was a prosecutor. Not the

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Russian Orthodox Church because as I said before, they were part of that system.

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But the Baptists, Evangelicals, Pentecostals, they were the enemy of Soviet Union.

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There are so many pastors being jailed for preaching the word of God. Christian in school were, in schools were prosecuted, were kind of put in a stand to laugh about, to point in front of others that they are different than us.

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Religion was always considered a lie to the people that, the teaching of evolution in Soviet Union was not even close to what we have here in the

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States. It was basically a shovel to our throat. And they would say to me, this is the only way or everything other is kind of like lie and you're going against the state.

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How can you do that? When I was in school and it was a time of the Gorbachev, there was a time of restructure of the

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Soviet Union. Once I was in high school time and the teacher asked me, he says, do you believe in God?

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I said, yes. And he's like, you believe in God? I said, yes.

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He says, that's impossible. You can't do it. You can't believe in God. You're not serious about this. I said, yes.

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He said, you have to go to director of the school. And so I'll talk to you about it. So that's how deep that was.

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So the thought, the Ukraine, after collapse of the

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Soviet Union was completely different country. It's a country of freedom. Freedom of,

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I mean, when that time came, the churches was flourishing. We had so many people coming and believing in Christ and coming to church.

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The baptisms we had, like I from the Western part of Ukraine, we had like a four times a year baptism with hundred or even more people at the time.

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So that was a blessed time. I mean, I think what you said that Russia is like an evil fight against the

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Christianity, against the goodness. I think this is the war because we had a freedom.

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Ukraine is a free country. And we didn't have a persecution.

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No one had told you, you can't believe in God. You can't worship that way. People like, you know, we had a freedom to go to the center of the city and preach the gospel.

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We had a Thanksgiving in the capital city, Ukraine, they did the huge Thanksgiving. All the people from other countries came in and it was a wonderful service.

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It was a gospel preaching. The presidents of our country came and stood together with people in that service.

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So the Ukraine is different. And unfortunately right now, the evil tried to take us back basically to bring us back to that evil time.

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Off camera, you were talking about, it was like four different levels or assignments they gave you.

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And then Dennis was like, oh, that was just four levels of communism or something like that. What was that about?

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I kind of missed that. So in the Soviet era, you don't become communist right away.

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It take you through force. I mean, the total is a four stages. The first one, and it goes by the age.

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So I think if you're up to the, from the first grade to the third grade, you were supposed to be, they call

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Zhoktynyatko, means the baby for the Lenin. Like, let's put it this way.

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And then there was a pioneer. Pioneer was a person that actually kind of like you, the first time you devoted yourself to be a future communist.

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And then when you grew up and you become like, I think 17, then you would become Komsomolets, the younger communist.

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And then eventually when you grow up and become older, you make a decision to become part of the party, the communist party.

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So I would probe the Christian family. My grandfather was the pastor in the church and my father was a deacon in the church.

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And when my time came and they told me that to accept that the first stage of the communist party.

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And I said, no. So they put me in school in front of the other kids and just, you know, they shamed me.

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I don't want to be part of the communist. I'm not a good citizen. I'm not a good student and so on.

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Just to kind of try to break me. So I'll accept that. You're standing in front of how many kids?

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How many kids? School, probably, I don't know, 500, 600.

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Oh, wow. I was expecting like maybe a little less. I don't really remember, but they're grilling you, asking you questions.

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Yeah, it was normal, but that was every day. Total debt.

37:20

Wow. We're trying to indoctrinate you. Yeah, I think a lot of times we take for granted the freedom that we have, right?

37:27

And we don't realize how important politics are, right? We think, well, you know, if you have some totalitarian leader, some big government experiment,

37:37

Christians will be refined, no big deal. But if you look at the history of the world, when totalitarian governments and communism take over, it brings spiritual darkness.

37:48

So I think about like the Korean Peninsula. You had Pyongyang was the

37:53

Jerusalem of the East. It was the Christian capital of the East. Once communism came over, it took over.

38:02

But then because of the war, the South fought back and the line was drawn.

38:07

And now the North has something like 50 ,000 evangelical Christians and the

38:12

South has something like 30 million. So clearly the politics matter there, right?

38:18

What's on the line with this war that's going on? Is this really a war for freedom? And if the

38:24

Ukraine can be established again as a free nation, and they are, and hold that sovereignty, what difference does that make for the church of Jesus Christ?

38:32

So what are the stakes here in this war? Because I think a lot of times all we hear is what

38:38

Fox News and MSNBC said, right? And that's all we're getting. But we have a very unique opportunity right now because we have believers in Jesus Christ who are here with us to tell us what's it like for Christians in the

38:51

Ukraine and how should we be praying about this war? Does it matter who wins? How should we be supporting and encouraging?

38:59

So there is no Ukrainian Baptist or Pentecostal church on occupied territories, okay?

39:08

So buildings either destroyed or taken over by military personnel or government personnel, you are not able to practice religious freedom on those territories unless you agree with the new government, with the state.

39:33

And you are allowed to practice your religion, your belief based on what they say, not what you believe, okay?

39:43

So for us, it means that the Christianity is over, like Ukrainian Protestantism is over in Ukraine if it's occupied by a bunch.

39:54

Wow, that's a huge statement. Even in Russia, if you say something against the government, you're gonna face big consequences.

40:06

My wife and I have been supporting missionaries in Russia and Putin, I think it was around 2015, kicked them out because they were evangelists.

40:14

They had anti -proselytization laws. And so they ended up in Budapest, Hungary.

40:21

So yeah, it actually is against the gospel in Russia. It sounds like Ukraine actually has better freedom of speech laws than Canada or Great Britain.

40:35

So is that why the gospel is gone now? Is that one of the reasons? Or is that a product of the gospel?

40:44

I would say the product of the gospel is probably both, right? Yes. David? And even in the western side of Ukraine right now with many refugees that have had to leave their homes because of the religious freedom of Ukraine, the doors for gospel proclamation are wide open, right?

41:08

Many Protestant churches housed people that were fleeing and were able to proclaim to them the good news, right?

41:15

And be the light in the darkness. And so as sad as it is, there was gospel opportunities in that darkness because of the religious freedom, because of the ability for churches,

41:30

Protestant churches to have their own buildings, have their own, I'll say, staff, right? And be able to kind of pivot in that situation.

41:38

You take all of that away and you're not able to serve in times of trouble. You guys are all

41:43

Americans though. So do you worry about America losing free speech?

41:49

About America subjecting itself to tyranny? I mean, we just came out of this thing called

41:56

COVID, right? You guys prepared for that, right? I mean, what's your concern? How do you warn people that don't take it seriously?

42:05

Actually, it's a potential to lose the freedom because it's all the time.

42:13

And here in the States, it's the same way. And the

42:19

COVID was the kind of example for us what could happen. And sometimes it's not because of a dictatorship.

42:31

Sometimes it's because of the fear among the people. So it's always potential to lose the freedom.

42:39

But this country is a beacon of freedom to the world.

42:45

That's why Ukraine is like... We wanna be in union with United States.

42:54

We wanna be our friends. We wanna be our partners. Because if you go to any other country, we'll face prosecution.

43:07

You go to... Okay, if you don't go to Russia, you go to Belarus, you're gonna have the same issues, same problems.

43:16

So we always worry, but what we have in here is much, much better than anybody in the world.

43:24

That kind of leads me to the next question, is Zelensky friend, though? What is he?

43:32

Well, he never was an enemy, okay? But he kind of became a hero when he stood up for people against Russia.

43:43

And we believe it's in God's providence that he came to the power.

43:52

Young guy who grew up in free Ukraine. He's a businessman.

43:58

He's a talented actor. But God used him in an amazing way.

44:04

So we pray for him. He's not ideal. We don't think of him...

44:11

He's not born again. But he's a good leader for people during the war. I'm like...

44:17

You could say the same thing about Donald Trump, almost. Well, I was gonna ask, was Ronald Reagan or Zelensky a better actor?

44:25

Yeah. Well, one is a serious actor, the other one was a comic. Comedian, yeah.

44:32

I didn't like when Zelensky came to Pennsylvania before the election and was trying to tip things in favor of Harris, because she's as wicked as it gets.

44:42

She was for the Equality Act, which would have tried to shut us up for preaching the truth about sexuality.

44:48

She was for socialism in a number of ways. And the list goes on and on. You know, abortion and the whole nine yards.

44:57

So can you help us to separate between Zelensky and his flaws and the importance of supporting the

45:06

Ukraine's freedom? And I don't know even what that looks like. Is it constantly doing what

45:12

America is doing? Or is there some way to just win this war? Is there a way to bring peace through strength?

45:21

And maybe Trump could bring that kind of a bully stick to say, hey, we've got your back and Putin, you need to step off now.

45:29

Because I don't think this war ever would have happened if Trump had been in office. That's my view. I think the weakness on the world stage led

45:36

Putin to think, all right, here's my chance. Biden is basically, he fell asleep at the table. He was sitting with the president of Ebola and these other

45:45

African leaders. And he sat there for five minutes with his eyes closed, asleep. So what does the world leader say?

45:52

This guy, he's not gonna do anything. So Putin takes his opportunity. So all that to sum up, my question is, we have problems with Zelensky in some ways, right?

46:02

He's clearly not born again. There's some ethical issues with his just behaviors in the past.

46:10

Same way Trump had the excess Hollywood tapes, right? But how can we still support

46:17

Ukraine and the Christians of Ukraine even if we're not saying, okay, Zelensky's our guy? Is there a space for us there?

46:27

I think so. I certainly think so right now. And I ask the question like that because I think there is too. I think that any leader that is not a born -again

46:39

Christian, and even a born -again Christian is gonna have flaws, right? We can't expect perfection.

46:46

We can't expect that they won't make mistakes. And in addition to that, we can't expect that they're not gonna play politics to some degree, right?

46:54

So I think Zelensky has the responsibility and a really tough role at the moment, right?

47:03

As a leader of Ukraine, he has to embrace those that are willing to show support and willing to, let's say, continue to kind of provide that both monetary and military awareness, support across the board, right?

47:20

And so I think he probably leans that way in embracing that. At the same time, he hasn't, he met with Trump.

47:28

He laid out the plan. And I don't think he's been disrespectful towards the

47:33

Republican Party in any way, right? So at the same time, the general feel is that the

47:40

Democratic Party would provide more assistance, whether they would be the stronger player on the world stage,

47:47

I agree in that they've been weak. So we have history to show for that, right?

47:55

And so certainly with the way that Trump dealt with ISIS, with the way that he's dealt with, I'll say some of the threats on the global scale, you can see that he's got the ability to handle some of those situations in a way that are,

48:08

I'll say, final to some degree, right? Now, at the same time, I think we're cautiously optimistic, right?

48:15

And that he's also not going to say, let's just stop it.

48:20

And to the very beginning, in an unfair way, everything that the

48:25

Ukrainians have fought for is now kind of in the hands of, let's say, Putin, just for the sake of seizing, let's say, the war, and not allowing for freedom to be restored in those areas.

48:38

So I think that our support is in that we want freedom, and we want the ability to proclaim the gospel.

48:48

We know Ukraine is strategically located, center of,

48:54

I'll say, well, it's Eastern Europe, right? But center in location, and proximity to a lot of nations that need

49:01

Jesus. And from personal experience, we know that those that are on the ground in Ukraine are doing what they're supposed to be doing at this time, right?

49:11

They're Christian brothers and sisters. They are being that light in the darkness and spreading the good news.

49:20

Awesome. Can I add something to that? Yeah, please. Also, think of that Zelensky only represents

49:29

Ukraine. He's a president of this country, and he's a human being too.

49:37

So he tried to do his best, but sometimes he makes mistakes. But this war is not about just him.

49:44

Right, right. That's another point. This war is about the nation, which is a lot of people.

49:52

It's millions. And so, you know, the

49:58

Second World War where Germans with Nazis people was trying to destroy

50:03

Jews. Why did these people did something bad to them?

50:10

Well, that's because they were Jews. They were being killed. So right now, why is the

50:17

Russian Federation killing us? So they look, they don't target

50:23

Zelensky. They target Ukrainian civilians, killing children, raping women.

50:36

They trying to destroy an ecosystem in Ukraine. What is this?

50:43

Is it just a fighting against one person? Or it's a war against the people, the nation?

50:50

And another thing I want to mention that the Ukraine right now, and if we're talking about Christianity, the true

50:57

Christianity, that one that gives the freedom and brings the message of Christ, that real message, we are on the front line.

51:06

Yeah. Because if Ukraine fall, then they'll be on the border of Europe.

51:14

And he's not going to stop. Because he has a bigger agenda. So when you ask what, why do we support

51:24

Ukraine? What do we pray? Pray for Ukraine. Yes. See, there was a reason why

51:33

God put him. Maybe because we needed to realize, the

51:38

Ukrainian nation needed to realize something. Or maybe he needed to realize something.

51:43

Because on the beginning of the war, Zelensky being an atheist, he was said to the people, pray.

51:53

He said at the beginning of the war, he said, there is a God, because he's going to judge the people what they did in Bucha and Irpin and all those areas, in many other areas.

52:03

He said that God will judge those people. And he said to the people, pray. He actually initiated prayer breakfast.

52:12

There was always prayer breakfast in Ukraine, but he never been part of it.

52:19

Then he came out. He came to one of those prayer breakfast. So, and as you remember, he was here in the

52:25

United States with prayer breakfast. And he read the word of God, gospel.

52:31

From the gospel, he was reading and showing that what the true love is.

52:38

So what I'm saying is, when you get an American priest, pray for the

52:43

Ukraine, for the people in Ukraine, for the children, for women, for Christians, so that frontline of Christianity would not fall.

52:52

Wow. That's so powerful. And I didn't know that the Ukraine was the most Christian nation in all of Europe and Asia.

53:00

That's just an amazing thing. And we need to stand for that. We need to pray for it. Nations matter to God. Nations have borders.

53:07

Nations are designed by God. He's determined the boundaries of our habitation. And, you know, you read about, even from as early as,

53:13

I think it's Genesis chapter 10, the nations, the table of nations that God has created. And God created the

53:20

Ukraine. And as long as that's his sovereign plan, we defend the right of the nation to stand.

53:26

And if there's someone, a tyrant, who thinks they can transgress boundaries and overtake a nation, we have to say no to that.

53:33

We have to pray against that. And I think it's perfectly right for soldiers to fight against that. So that's what you guys are doing.

53:40

They're fighting against an invader. So as per usual, we're running up against the clock.

53:47

But anybody who has sat through this, they've really enjoyed listening to. Actually, they'd like to get some contact info from you.

53:55

If each one of you could mention your church, your website, or the best way for people to reach out to you.

54:02

You want to start? Yes. Our church is called Regeneration Church.

54:08

So you can find us on YouTube. Probably the easiest way to find us. Or on Instagram.

54:17

And I can give you my phone number. We'll put some links in the show notes.

54:25

How about in Vineland? What do we got down there? ubcchurch .com ubcchurch .com

54:35

Great. You got a good URL. That's simple. This can't be wrong.

54:41

ubc .com Really? I bet you it does. What's the best way for people to find you out there in cyberspace?

54:47

First Ukrainian Baptist in Philadelphia. firstuebc .org

54:55

firstuebc .org First is spelled out. But no, it's the number one. He's got a better URL.

55:03

That's still pretty good, though. That's good. It's just not great. Well, guys, we do a thing at the end of every show.

55:11

Where we want to lift a brother up and tear a brother down. If you want to follow along with us, you can. You guys ready?

55:16

No, you tear a high place down. You don't tear a brother down. What? Yeah, tearing a brother? Okay, we lift the brother up.

55:23

And then we tear a high place. So what's the high place that has to get torn down? Because our podcast is called

55:28

Tearing Down High Places. So we take aim at the lies and the culture, the things that people are believing.

55:34

I think there's a lie that Putin is actually like the good guy. A lot of people are pushing that down.

55:40

This is an evil dude. And his allies are Iran and North Korea and Syria.

55:46

And now Syria has fallen. And of course, where did Assad go? He ran back to Putin. So I think that's...

55:52

I think demonic forces are using Putin in that, what was that called? KBG? To really target someone for a purpose.

56:01

And it's because of the light, not because they're dark. Right. Darkness attacking the light. But yeah,

56:07

I have a love I think Ukraine that I didn't have before coming on the show. So I appreciate that. Yeah. So yeah.

56:14

And mission is accomplished. Mission is accomplished. Yes. So lifting a brother up.

56:21

So our little thing is you see a brother down and pick him up. The Ukrainian church has been down in a sense.

56:26

It's under attack physically by an entire nation. Putin. And you see a high place.

56:31

And that's this idea that Russia is not that bad. It's the West that's evil. That's a high place that we can tear down.

56:38

The KGB specifically. KGB. I learned a lot about Putin is just one guy at the

56:45

KGB and there's another one right behind him. It's the same thing as our deep state. There's a lot in the Washington swamp.

56:51

It's a deep state. It's not just whoever one person is there. There's a lot of people that are entrenched there.

56:57

Behind the scenes. Actually our deep state likes that there's probably somebody behind Putin at the

57:03

KGB because it's stability. And you know. I can't help but make a slight comparison between Ukraine and Israel.

57:16

And all the people around are attacking Ukraine. It just won't go down. And similar to what's happening in Israel too.

57:24

A lot of people are attacking Israel and it's not going to go down. And God's hand is over that.

57:30

And holding it together. And it's just prayer and belief. And you know.

57:38

God will lift that nation up. So basically our three favorite countries right now are the

57:43

United States, Israel, and Ukraine. If you see a

57:52

Ukraine brother down. If you see a high KGB place, tear it down.