Let's Watch the Christian Nationalist Trailer Together, Shall We?

Welcome to the Conversations That Matter podcast. I'm a little bit early today. We still have a few minutes before the podcast is supposed to start at four o 'clock p .m. Eastern Standard Time. At that time, I will be playing the trailer.

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I'm having trouble talking for some reason. I don't know if it's because I didn't get much sleep last night or what, but it's been busy this week. And I don't know, I think that's everyone, right? The holidays, especially as you approach Christmas, things get busy and you're trying to cram a lot, and there's a lot of things to prepare for and events.

I'm actually preaching this Sunday, so you can pray for me, at a local church. And so that'll be good. I'm actually gonna be speaking on the book of Job. And I know it's kind of odd to do, right? Leading up to Christmas.

It kind of suits the particular circumstances, I think, though, that this church is in, and also the circumstances of my family to some degree. And it's also something that I've been reading in my personal devotional time.

So I'm looking forward to getting into that. And I might post it on the podcast, so we'll see. I don't know. Sometimes the broadcast isn't the greatest quality. It's a little bitty church in the middle of the woods.

One of the reasons I actually love speaking at places like that, I don't know about you. I mean, it's great to speak to any audience, but for some odd reason, I'd have to think about it more, why I like it.

But I do like smaller audiences where the people tend to know each other. Smaller churches. I don't know, maybe it's because I grew up in one. But anyway, we are streaming. We have 72 people streaming right now.

We're counting down. We have less than three minutes before I'm gonna play the trailer, and we will talk about it as we go through it, maybe a little bit and probably a whole lot more after. If you wanna be part of the podcast, there's two ways you can be part of it.

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Hello from Massachusetts. Hello from Omaha. Yes, we are. We are a national podcast, international. So I'm told. Sometimes we get people from all over the world that tune in and we only have two minutes, less than two minutes, and then we're gonna play this trailer for you.

Someone said, never heard. I say someone because it says we're products, not consumers. I'm not sure. That can't be their actual name. That's just the name on YouTube, I guess. Never heard the made up term Christian nationalists until the Marxists fed it to the state propaganda networks.

Yeah, it's kind of a, at least the occurrence of the term is kind of new. I talk about in my book, Christianity and Social Justice, Religions and Conflict, which has been out now, I guess, for two years.

You can go online and get that. You can go to Amazon if you want. Of course, I prefer if you go to my website, johnharrispodcast .com, and you can order it there and I'll give you an autograph copy. But anyway, I do talk about the use of that term about a hundred years ago in these Bellarmine clubs, these, they were Christian nationalist groups.

So they were basically Marxist. They were Christian Marxism. It was a way to try to sell Fabian socialism to Americans. Very different than what the term means now, at least in the popular kind of parlance.

So it has been around, there is a history, but for the most part, it's either very obscure references. And I think that's what Stephen Wolf does, to be honest, in the intro to his book. He pulls from these very obscure references to kind of bolster what he's doing, his project, or the more mainstream, and I don't know how mainstream really was it, but the more common usage, if you go to somewhere like Google Books and you type in the word and you want to see how it was used across time, it was actually used on the left, ironically.

But we are now about 30 seconds away from running this particular video. This is a new documentary. This is a documentary on Christian nationalism. We're gonna talk about it. I'm gonna inform you a little bit about it because let's just say I went online to a search engine and I typed in, I think it's called God and Country, the title of the documentary, and then Christian nationalism.

And it's like the first page, just boom, boom, boom, boom, all these mainstream news websites covering the release of this documentary, which is set for, I think, next February. And this is something that I guess you could say I told you so, but it wouldn't be unique to me.

A lot of people told you so. Of course we knew this was going to be one of the major plays that the Democrat Party machine, or it doesn't even have to be associated with the Democrat Party, just the more liberal and progressive-minded people who don't want to see Donald Trump reelected.

We knew this was gonna be one of the things that they were gonna pull. The media was gonna pull this. Hollywood was gonna pull this. Democrat politicians were gonna try to pull this. This idea that Christians are actually just, they're marked, sorry, they're not marked.

The ones on the social justice side are kind of Marxist, but Christians are actually Nazis, essentially. That's what they want you to kind of associate with this. So without further ado, let's play the trailer, and then we'll do some commentary, get to some questions and comments, and perhaps go from there.

So here is the particular video that's circling around the internet, cycling around the internet. This is God and Country, the trailer for the documentary coming out next February.

The God and Country Trailer and the Christian Nationalism Narrative

While the white Christian nationalist crusade threatens the

That is not the right video. Sorry, hold on. I'm giving you a preview of something I'm going to show you that I actually just was putting together. This is the trailer. Here we go.

America and Christianity are like baseball and apple pie, and we celebrate them together.

I was 16, 17 years old when I became a Christian.

I'm an evangelical minister.

I've been a Christian my whole life. I'm a Christian nationalist. I have nothing to be ashamed of because that's what most Americans are.

Is Christian nationalism Christian?

No, it isn't.

We should be blazing forth as a counter-cultural example, and instead, we're leading the charge of malice and division. Christian nationalism uses Christianity as a means to an end. That end being some form of authoritarianism.

Being a Christian is about the values of inclusion. Christian nationalism is certainly not based on the values of the gospel.

God wants America to be saved.

They're told over and over and over again that you're in danger.

You need to fight if you don't want to lose your country.

We are in a civil war between good and evil.

This is not a movement about Christian values. This is about Christian power.

What happens to the people who don't believe this stuff?

We are on the precipice.

God is on our side.

We're taking our nation back.

The thing that keeps me up at night is that we lose democracy.

Does that seem possible?

Yes.

Christianity at its best is committed to love and truth and justice. If we do this right, what a country we will be.

Now, I just gotta say, I don't know how I feel about them using God bless America there in the background. I mean, that's striking like patriotic emotions in me. It's gonna cause Christian nationalism.

So this is the very predictable. I think that's even what I put in the thumbnail for this. This is so predictable that they're doing this. And to many of you, this is probably not a huge surprise, but I figured we would go over a few things that just kind of stood out to me in the trailer.

Of course, the ending, I think, stands out as a contrast. The last like five seconds in regards to the rest of the trailer, because you have this kind of foot in the door where they say, they insinuate, well, Christianity can be politically involved.

And then it's for those who are listening and not seeing what everyone who's streaming right now is seeing. They are images from civil rights protests in the 1960s. So that's the good kind of Christianity.

That's the Christianity you want. You can be politically engaged, but of course the rest of the trailer is mostly images from January 6th. And this is the kind of bad Christian nationalism. This is Christian nationalism.

The other is just, I guess, Christian civic engagement. But Christian nationalism is about, the thing that defines it is that it's about seeking power. So if you're seeking power, that's a bad thing. And so the funny part to me though, is that they're okay with seeking power as long as it's the right messaging, right?

So certain right-wing sentiments, not good, but left-wing sentiments, fine. You can all day go and protest and try to get the government to represent your views because they're quote unquote Christian.

That's perfectly fine and acceptable. And that is seeking power too. You're trying to influence the government with a certain vision and you're calling it a Christian vision, but that doesn't qualify in their minds.

And in the trailer, obviously it can't give you the whole documentary. So maybe they'll talk about this in the documentary, but I haven't heard any good explanations for why that's so different, why that evades the charge of seeking power.

The other thing is you'll notice some voices in the documentary that are more quote unquote conservative evangelical. At least they would claim that. At least they have claimed that in the past. One being Russell Moore from previously the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission for the Southern Baptist, professor at the Flagship Seminary, Southern Baptist Theological Seminary.

Really the creation, I would say, or the person who's most responsible for giving Russell Moore a platform would be Al Mohler, who tries to tout himself as a very conservative person. And he is certainly, the way he's talking, especially lately, he is to the right of Russell Moore.

But Russell Moore has, he thinks Christianity's changed, but really he's changed. He has drifted farther and farther left. And this is one more piece of that, of evidence for that. You have him, you have also Phil Vischer, the creator of VeggieTales is interviewed in this.

You have David French. And they're appearing alongside people like Christian Dumas, the author of Jesus and John Wayne. And well, let me just show you that Jamar Tisby is also part of this. And there is two that I in particular wanted to just show you how radical these people are because I think the partnership is somewhat significant.

It doesn't mean that Russell Moore necessarily endorses every view of, let's say, Anthea Butler, who's part of this documentary, but would he have been part of a documentary with Anthea Butler before?

That's a question I have. Say five years ago, 10 years ago. I mean, they wouldn't have probably been in the same room, let alone part of the same kind of struggle against a political rival, quote unquote, Christian nationalism.

So here's a little video that I made. This is Jamar Tisby, okay? So this is one of the people in the documentary. We've talked about him before, author of Killer Compromise. I really take apart the argument in his book, in my book, Christianity and Social Justice, Religions and Conflict.

But Jamar, he had a video. This is from, I think, this is from 2022, but this is a video that really shows you who Jamar Tisby thinks are good representatives of Christianity at the public square, and politics, et cetera.

And in this montage, you're gonna see Jamar Tisby tout a bunch of names, people he thinks are doing it right. These are the good Christians, not the Christian nationalists. These are the good Christians involved in politics.

It's the alternative vision for Christians, because Christian nationalism is very bad. Well, what is his vision exactly? What is he trying to promote? And what kind of agenda would he have for being in a documentary like this, taking aim at Christian nationalism?

So here it is. This is a video that I made right before we got on air.

The white Christian nationalist crusade threatens the future of our democracy. It's not the only way people of faith have engaged in politics. For example, the black Christian tradition represents a very different way people of faith have engaged with politics.

A way that historically has led to more democratic participation and an expansion of civil rights and inclusion. No faith community is perfect, and the black Christian tradition doesn't always get it right.

But it serves as a valuable reminder that the white Christian nationalist crusade isn't the only witness to faith in politics.

I'm not in love with politics. I'm in love with change. Politics is for me a tool. I got involved in something as messy as politics with the hope that I could continue to work on the issues that I've worked on anyway.

Do you believe there should be any limitations on abortion set by the government? And you have 60 seconds.

I think that the women of this country and the women of this state woke up one summer morning and a core protection that they've known for 50 years was taken from them by an extremist Supreme Court. Jesus had a record.

Born in a barrio called Bethlehem, smuggled as an undocumented immigrant, raised in a ghetto called Nazareth. They brought him up on trumped up charges. But he was so powerful that he turned the scandal of the cross into an enduring symbol of victory over evil and injustice.

We must all stand together across faith traditions, across racial lines, stand together, fight together, walk together, organize together, vote together, pray together, stay together.

That there is a tradition of working toward a multiracial inclusive democracy fueled by a very different understanding of Christianity. We can look at people like William J. Barber who helped revive the Poor People's Campaign.

Latosha Brown, leader of Black Voters Matter.

I'm a universalist Christian pastor. I've not had an abortion, but I strongly believe it's my right to choose. Happy coming out day to all my queer friends. Don't tell all the people who are my bosses in the denomination, but no, I do not believe in the literal second coming of Jesus Christ.

A multifaceted, incredibly diverse, panoply of personality and aspect that is God. God of many breaths. You get to name God the way you want to name God and you get to name you the way you want to be named.

And Chris Jones, physicist and ordained minister who's running for governor of Arkansas.

You know, look, I have always said that I'm a supporter of Roe. It provided reasonable restrictions. Because as you noted, like there do need to be reasonable restrictions and yet it's a decision between the woman, her faith and her God and her physician and her family.

All of them are vocal about the role of faith in their activism and working to break the old molds of whose voices and whose votes count in this country. White Christian nationalism is a dangerous and urgent threat in the United States.

We should know about it. We should understand it. So we can resist this anti-democratic crusade.

So there you have it. That's the political vision for Jamar Tisby's Christian interaction in government. That's how Christians should behave. And of course it starts with, again, it's very similar to the trailer that we just watched.

It's images from the civil rights movement. It's Martin Luther King Jr. But this is what he actually thinks of when he thinks of that particular political tradition. It's people who are very pro-abortion, people who are not just heretics, but like way out there.

In fact, there were clips I didn't even include in this that I could have that are just bonkers. And in fact, I don't know if I'll have a chance to play them. We'll see if we have time later in the program, someone can remind me in case I forget.

But I have some clips of Anthea Butler, who's also participating in this documentary, talking about the superiority of indigenous African religions to Christianity. And she's someone who claims to be Catholic.

She's apparently somewhat of a convert from quote unquote evangelicalism, at least that's what she says. And now she's going full radical. Here's a few quotes. She's in the documentary alongside Russell Moore and other supposed conservative evangelicals.

She says that she wrote this book, "'White Evangelical Racism," because she was once an evangelical before, and now she's going back to the Catholic church. That was in 2020 she said this. But in her book, she says, "'Evangelicalism' is synonymous with whiteness.

It is not only cultural whiteness, but also political whiteness.". So in other words, and you'll find this throughout a lot of what she says. I just listened to a podcast with her and Bart Barber and a few other people talking about Christian nationalism.

Bart Barber is the president of the Southern Baptist Convention. And to her, evangelicalism and Christian nationalism are basically synonymous. And this gets into the problem of the net is cast so wide, and you see it in this documentary, that as long as you're a Christian who wants to influence government by pursuing power and you're kind of scary, right?

You have, there's scary images of a guillotine on January 6th that was more symbolic and it was smaller than I think there's a forced perspective in that photograph. But that's what it is. It's basically the combination of scariness and scary things that look symbolically frightening plus Christians wanting power.

That's basically the image they're trying to give you. And that's just what evangelicals want according to Anthea Butler. And of course, she's one of the experts. She teaches at, I believe it's the University of Pennsylvania and whiteness is what's behind this.

That's what evangelicalism, whiteness, Christian nationals and evangelicalism, it's all the same thing. She says, my answer is that evangelicalism is not a simply religious group at all. Rather, it is a nationalistic political movement whose purpose is to support the hegemony of white Christian men over and against the flourishing of others.

So it doesn't matter if you are from a tradition that's, let's say you're coming from a Chinese Christian tradition or something and you're evangelical, you have evangelical convictions. I mean, it used to mean something, the Bebbington quadrilateral type stuff.

Well, actually you're just trying to support white men and their hegemony. She says evangelicals consolidated power both by aligning themselves with the Republican Party and by taking on a moral mantle that showed off their strong stances against abortion and homosexuality.

Indeed, these were the two issues that would allow them to build their power through organizing and fundraising. And that would more and more allow them to align themselves with the electoral and presidential power.

And then last but not least, she says, this is another quote from the book. Evangelicals begin to use the language of religious freedom as a way to exclude LGBTQ persons from civil rights and to lobby for special status in cases such as the Masterpiece Cake Shop case.

The Masterpiece Cake Shop case originated in Colorado where two gay men asked the Masterpiece Cake Shop to bake their wedding cake. The cake shop refused because of the owner's opposition to same-sex marriage and homosexuality on religious grounds.

The religious freedom argument is an old one originating in the 19th century when evangelicals used religious beliefs about race to separate their denominations and justify slavery. So this is the common, honestly, you wanna yawn because you hear it so many times, argument from progressives that the same group of people has just wanted to oppress.

They're trying to hold onto power and oppress minorities and people they can take advantage of. And so LGBTQ plus people are just the latest iteration in this long chain of attempts to oppress. And this is the legacy of Christian nationalists or evangelicals or white Christians.

And that's the narrative that she's bringing to the table. And of course, she is in this documentary as well, alongside again, Russell Moore, David French. They're all fighting the same threat, the same thing.

They see a problem there and they wanna do something about it. Well, in about eight minutes, we're gonna start taking some, whoever wants to come in chat and talk about what we just saw and what we're discussing.

I would say, get in there now. If you have a chat, you wanna just leave a comment, then you can make those comments. I usually look for the ones with question marks first. And if you want to become part of the program, go to Patreon and you can find that link.

I wanna find, I had just mentioned before, now I forgot where I put it and I'm just gonna look briefly, the Anthea Butler video that I had. Let's see if I can find it. Here it is. So here's another Anthea Butler.

What do you think that we've been bamboozled by evangelicalism?

Hoodwinked?

Well, I mean. Hoodwinked, what a buck.

Hoodwinked, bamboozled.

I mean, there are lots of ways. I mean, I think, you know, we could just start out with a white Jesus in your house. If you've got a picture of a Warner Salmon's Jesus with that long hair, looking like a white surfer boy from California, like he looks like he should be playing, you know, basically the beach boys, maybe you need to rethink your idea about Jesus in your head.

So that's the first thing. I think the second thing is, is the ways in which we bought into certain kind of cultural evangelical norms. And I'm sure we're going to get on Lil Nas X in a little bit, and we can talk about that.

But the ways in which they think about purity culture, the ways in which they think about voting, the ways in which they think about education, the ways they think about a lot of different things, even gun ownership.

I think that we need to really step back and look at what scripture is saying instead of what evangelicals are saying and how they are controlling the narrative of the culture about morality.

It's interesting. I have a lot of, I have a handful of friends who have more indigenous faith. They may be from the Caribbean. And when I think about them, and I say this respectfully to anybody out there listening, we're just having this conversation.

They don't seem to have the same kind of religious guilt. Is there something that we're missing, not embracing some of our indigenous faith?

I think the connection there is about family and about your ancestors and about the ways in which you look at the earth and all of the things that are in it and how that relates to who you are as a human being as a holistic kind of faith.

What some parts of Christianity ask you to do is to dissect yourself from that. And so what people need to understand, maybe we're saying not having the hangups, is that Western Christianity is based in Western modes of thought.

Those are not African modes of thought. And so when we're talking about how this sort of Western dichotomy about spirit and soul, Soma and Sark, all of these things that we're doing disconnect us from the way we are supposed to be connected in nature to each other, to the cosmos, all of these things.

And so I think what African traditional religions do for people is to give them a more holistic way of looking at the world. So I don't have those kinds of hangups that other Christians might have about these faiths in part because I think they're an important part of how Africans were able to do the kinds of things they did before enslavement and after.

The black church has a problem with homophobia. The black church needs to get over because they know they would never be able to field a choir. They would never have any programs in their church or anything.

But even more than that, it's not just about that. It's about the acceptance of people when we have been through so much that you want to use sexuality as a way to define whether God loves somebody or not, that's not your call.

It's not your call. And so I completely disagree with all of this. I am open and affirming and accepting of everybody. I don't need to know what you're doing in your house. I don't want to know what heterosexual people are doing in their house.

To be honest with you, I don't care. But what has happened is that we have inculcated this white evangelical ideas about sexuality and purity and everything else that makes us bound up, that keeps us in chains and keeps us from realizing the fullness of potential of ourselves and each other when we begin to think about all the things that God could do for us.

Yes. And I often remind people when you think of, again, indigenous faith, they didn't use this language, but they believed in gender fluidity. There was, they didn't use that kind of language then, of course, but it's well-documented.

It's well-documented.

Now, I'm not an expert on quote-unquote indigenous faith. So there is this skepticism I have, like to what extent did they as like a monolithic, like how many tribal animistic religions are we talking about here?

I don't know, but they all believed in gender fluidity, really. Okay, well, whether they did or didn't, here you have a critic who's claiming to be critiquing Christian nationalism from the inside, at least as a Catholic, someone who has a respect supposedly for Christianity alongside Russell Moore and David French, right, critiquing Christianity.

And her main thrust in this clip you see is that the white evangelical church, whiteness, quote-unquote, Western Civ really is what she's talking about, modes of thinking here, that's responsible for all the bad stuff, including in her mind, the discrimination she sees against LGBT people in the black church.

So you have, the black church doesn't meet the standard, the progressive standard she has, right, because they don't accept homosexuality as strongly as she does. And that is just the result though, in that case, of it's the white people again, it's their fault.

So the black church isn't as responsible as the quote-unquote white people for this. I mean, it's just CRT stuff. This is where the thinking comes from. That's why Christian nationalism, quote-unquote, offends her.

She doesn't like it when people who are on the right, who have actual biblical values, not pagan animistic values, actually want to have an influence in the government. And that's all it takes. And that's, I think, one of the takeaways of this is that the net is cast so wide.

I mean, you can try to do the G3 thing where you parse everything out and say, we believe in this kind of civil engagement, and so we reject Christian nationalism. I mean, that's fine if you want to try to make those arguments and stuff.

The reality is though, if you had someone in the G3 orbit, and I don't want to just specifically pick on G3, it's just that in the last podcast, we talked about Josh Bice raising the alarm that Christian nationalism is vilified by the media, as if, I guess, we didn't know that, and that he predicted this.

And this is a bad thing somehow that they're gonna come for us, it's gonna be negative. And the thing is, if Josh Bice were elected to political office, they would call him a Christian nationalist in about 0 .5 seconds.

He wouldn't even have to be elected. He'd just have to say that he's thinking of running, and there would be hit pieces on him. That's just the nature of the beast right now. So yes, there are people who have taken this term, appropriated it, tried to finally tune what they mean, either injecting it with a more robust understanding of theonomy or classical Protestant political theology.

But whether they do that or not, the media who came up with this scare word is going to define it as really any Christian on the right who wants to be involved and try to have any influence. So that's what's going on.

And I will mention this as well. We're a few minutes away from taking questions, but I wanted to show you this. The director of this particular documentary on Christian nationalism is a guy by the name of Robert Reiner.

And Robert Reiner, if you look at his pedigree here, he has directed or acted in movies like The Wolf of Wall Street. And he has been involved with either directing or acting in a lot of raunchy sitcoms.

And so one of the things that I thought was interesting, because I thought, well, is this particular gentleman, he claimed in a tweet that he put out there that Christian nationalism is this big threat and it's a threat to Christianity as well.

So he seemed to indicate that he has a concern for Christianity. So I thought, well, is he a Christian? Is he like Russell Moore and claiming to be a Christian and saying there's this pariah, this threat that's come upon us?

Well, no, you actually look at, so he's part of the Democratic Party on Wikipedia, right? This is Wikipedia. So I'm assuming that he got this correct. But if you go to his religion, let's see if I can find, I'll probably have to do a search here.

Atheist, let's see if it comes. All right, so he was raised in a Jewish household. For some reason, my search bar is not working, but in this particular article, it talks about how he went from, here it is.

It says that he became an atheist, his father, as the Holocaust progressed. And then Rob identified himself as having no religious affiliation on Bill Maher and as an atheist. So, and now he is sympathetic to the ideas of Buddhism.

Okay, so this is the guy who's directing the Christian Nationalist documentary. He's got sympathies with Buddhism. He's an atheist, but he grew up Jewish and a guy that seems to really care. I mean, this is what Russell Moore and David French and Kristen do.

I mean, they all wanna tell you that they're so concerned about this heresy of Christian nationalism and pursuing power as if that's the worst thing in the world. Because if Christians have power, what are they gonna do with it?

Maybe, I don't know, you know, maybe if they're actual Christians, they'll try to support God's law. I mean, it seems better than the alternative. Of course, any person can be evil and do evil things, but that would be the ideal, that you have someone who thinks lying's wrong and stealing's wrong.

And it's things that the Bible, principles of the Bible gives us about running governments should be applied in government context. I mean, that'd be a good thing, you would think, and they should support that.

But they're very concerned about it. And so what do they do? They become part of this effort by an atheist with Buddhist sympathies who grew up Jewish alongside a bunch of heretics and truly radical leftists who wanna push abortion and LGBT stuff to take aim at the real threat, which is apparently Christian nationalism.

So there you go. I'm gonna start taking questions and comments. Before we do though, I wanna just bring, Ray Fava has been waiting patiently and anyone else who wants to come on the video chats or just be part of the audio, you can go to patreon .com forward slash worldview convos and you should be able to find the, or is it worldview?

I think it's worldview conversation. Forgetting my own Patreon website here. Yeah, worldview conversation, and you'll be able to find the link there. All right, Ray, how are you doing?

I'm doing all right.

Thanks for waiting patiently.

I see a lot of familiar faces in the chat. So hello, everybody who knows me and hello to those who don't. Just a slight correction. Rob Reiner's the producer of the movie, not the director. Okay, all right.

I was writing the article last night.

Point stands.

And I wanted to like say, what has Rob Reiner really done? But it turns out he's made like two pretty good movies. This is Spinal Tap and A Few Good Men. And he also made one of the most overrated movies in the 1980s, A Princess Bride.