November 17, 2016 Show with Jeremy Walker on “The New Calvinism Considered: A Personal & Pastoral Assessment”

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Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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Now here's our host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, and the rest of humanity who are living on the planet

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Earth, listening via live streaming. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Thursday on this 17th day of November 2016.

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I'm so delighted to have as a guest for the very first time on Iron Sharpens Iron today,

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Pastor Jeremy Walker, who is pastor of Maiden Bower Baptist Church of Crawley in West Sussex, England.

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He's calling all the way from the UK today and our connection is crystal clear and I'm thanking

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God for that. He's also an author and a blogger at Reformation 21 and The Wanderer.

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Today we're going to be discussing one of his books, The New Calvinism Considered, a personal and pastoral assessment.

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And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Sharpens Iron, Pastor Jeremy Walker.

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Thank you Chris, it's a pleasure to be with you. And before I even go into our main topic at hand,

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I'd like to know something about you. What was the religion of your childhood, if any, and what circumstances did the

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Lord use sovereignly to draw you to himself and save you? Well, I was brought up in a

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Christian home. My father is himself a pastor. My parents raised me wisely and well, but I kicked against the goads sometime in my early teens.

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I wasn't extravagantly, grossly, morally rebellious outwardly, but although I knew that there was a

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God and that that God was the God of the Scriptures, I also felt my my own sin, became quite negative, bitter, angry, and it was sometime before I was finally ready to acknowledge that not only could

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I not save myself, but there was only one way to be saved, and that was a way that would bring glory to God, glory to Christ.

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And at some point over a period of about two years, I think the

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Lord was pleased to bring me to the point of self -despair and bring me to Christ, to trust in him.

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And from that point on, although there were still some struggles with assurance in the years following that,

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I believe there was a turning point there somewhere in my my mid to late teens. And when did you realize that you were receiving the call from God to be a pastor?

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Well, that came really side by side with a growing measure of assurance.

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I was reading a book when I was at university, and it was actually a book by B .B.

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Warfield of sermons of his called Faith and Life, and there is a sermon in there on the fruits of the

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Spirit in the life of a believer. And God in his mercy was kind enough to make somewhat plain, as I was reading that chapter, that the changes that were taking place in me, small though they might have been in themselves, simply could not have been anything that would have grown in the soil of an unsaved heart.

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And as I began to come to terms with that and a growing assurance of God's favor toward me, really the challenge kept pressing in upon me.

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Well, what does that mean? If these are the mercies of God toward me, what is my reasonable service in response?

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And I know the answer to that won't be the same for every person, but I reached a point where I felt that I could not avoid asking the question whether or not that might include for me preaching and pastoring.

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And the religion of your upbringing, you said that your your father is a pastor and you were raised in a

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Christian home. Were you raised in a theologically Calvinistic home, the theology that you currently embrace?

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Yes I was, yes. I was even raised in the home of a confessional

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Baptist pastor, so only the best. Yes, I would agree with you being one myself.

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Well tell us something more about Maiden Bower Baptist Church of Crawley in West Sussex, England.

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Sure, well Crawley is what's called a new town, that is, it came to life as a community as a whole shortly after the

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Second World War. It now has I think somewhere between 120 ,000 -125 ,000 people may be living there, and it's exactly halfway between the center of London and Brighton.

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The name itself comes from a town that was a stopping point on the

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London to Brighton coach runs back in the days of the horse -drawn coach. So the town is right next to Gatwick Airport.

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If anybody's ever flown into or passed through Gatwick Airport, they've been about ten minutes outside of the town itself, and the town is composed of neighborhoods, one of which, one of the more recent of which, is

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Maiden Bower in the southeast of the town, and that's a community of about three and a half thousand homes, and our church building is in the center of that, although the membership is primarily drawn from around Crawley and a few places outside.

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So we have now, well it depends, small congregations, large congregations,

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I think that depends on where you are and what measure you're using, but God is blessing us in some ways.

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Whenever anybody asks me how are things going, my my stock response, I hope not a thoughtless one, has become that it is kingdom life in a fallen world.

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The brightness, the blessings, the beauties, the battles, the burdens, and the blights all rolled into one.

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Well, praise God for that, and for those of you who either live in the

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UK or want to visit the UK, the website for Maiden Bower Baptist Church is m -a -b -as -in -boy -a -c -h - and we hope that you look up that information and visit there if you are ever providentially in southern

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England in the West Sussex area. Yeah, we'd be delighted to have people passing through. Yes, and I hope that you and my current pastor,

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David Campbell, who is going to be accepting or has accepted that new call to North Preston, I know that he's on the opposite side of the country that you are on, but I hope that the

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Lord providentially brings about many opportunities for the two of you to share fellowship as well when when

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David returns to the UK, actually this coming Monday, God willing. Yeah, well

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I look forward to meeting him. Great, and you already had some kind of a relationship with him, did you not?

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Absolutely, yes, we we know each other a little over phone calls and Skype calls and things.

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Great, well we are discussing today a controversial issue, the new

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Calvinism considered a personal and pastoral assessment. This is a controversial issue because you have people who share the same tenets of the faith, the same theology, and very often the same confession of faith at odds with each other over certain aspects of this phenomenon.

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You have some that are aggressively involved in New Calvinism, you have those that are very critical of it, you have those that are on the fence, you have those that are really not even sure what exactly that means.

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But before we even go into the subject at hand of New Calvinism, as I've mentioned before on this program, we have new listeners that join the audience of Iron Sharpens Iron nearly every week, some of which are not even

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Christian. We do have Muslim listeners and we have listeners of other religions, we have

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Roman Catholic listeners and others. So if you could give a summary or a brief description of what

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Calvinism is, historic Calvinism, you might want to call it the old Calvinism, but before we even go into the

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New Calvinism, it's probably good to define what Calvinism is in its summary form. Sure.

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Well, Calvinism, I would contend, is essentially a nickname for the gospel, the good news about the

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Lord Jesus Christ. I know that that would be disputed by some, including some who are my brothers and sisters in Christ, but the reason why it has that nickname is because of a man by the name of John Calvin, who lived in the 16th century in, well, he was a

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Frenchman, but spent the bulk of his life laboring for the gospel in Geneva in Switzerland.

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He was a brilliant man, he was a fiercely intelligent systematizer of biblical doctrine, he was a preacher and a teacher and a pastor, and he was a man who worked his way through the

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Scriptures as a preacher, but also as a theologian.

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He was seeking to understand how the Bible as a whole held together, and he made some particular contributions to Christianity in the modern

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West, as it were. He was known, for example, for some of his contributions to theology proper, which is a biblical view of the

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God of the Bible, and he was significant in his understanding of the

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Trinity, Father, Son, and Spirit, but he also had a doctrine of salvation.

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Soteriology is the technical phrase. Soteriology, the doctrine of salvation, which has a long history going all the way back to the

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Bible, of course, I would say, but Augustine of Hippo would have been one of the historical precursors to Calvin, and this was essentially a doctrine which put

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God on the throne in an absolute sense in all matters relating to salvation.

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That God in his glory, God in his greatness, God in his sovereign and saving majesty is the source and origin of salvation.

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It is his by design, it is his in execution, it is his in application, and he therefore gets all the glory for what he is doing in the salvation of sinners.

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That he is a God who calls us from darkness into light, out of death into life, that we are utterly helpless and hopeless until the

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Lord God begins to work in us and draws us to himself, draws us to his Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, and then having set his love upon us in that way from before the foundation of the world, most surely keeps us until the very end, working righteousness and holiness in us.

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Amen, and I have often summarized it in a sentence,

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Calvinistic soteriology or the Calvinistic understanding of salvation or the

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Reformed understanding is that God alone saves sinners because sinners cannot even help save themselves.

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Absolutely, that's the nub of the statement of salvation, I would say. Yes, and most if not all

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Arminians would perhaps say, what are they talking about?

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We believe that God deserves a hundred percent of the praise, honor, glory, and credit for our salvation, but they're really not being consistent when they say that, are they?

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Because they believe that a dead sinner, before the Holy Spirit regenerates that person, before Christ gives that person a new heart, they believe that their dead lifeless soul, which of course they don't believe is quite dead and lifeless, they believe it's very sick, but they believe out of that soul, that sin -cursed soul, they can summon up somehow a faith that pleases

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God enough to grant them salvation, so therefore even that faith they credit to themselves, whereas according to Reformed theology, as Paul said to the

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Church at Ephesus, even the faith that we possess as Christians is a gift from God, correct?

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Yes, correct, and there are Arminians who would, as there are

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Calvinists, who there's a range even within that theological system, but yeah,

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I think it is fundamentally inconsistent, even in so far, for example, as most of my faithful Arminian brothers, in that sense, would certainly pray to God to save sinners, and yeah, there's the question of limitation.

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You could argue that both Calvinists and Arminians limit salvation, but they do it on a different plane, as it were.

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The Calvinist limitation, if you will, lies in the fact of God's will and purpose in accomplishing salvation, but the

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Arminian essentially limits God's ability to save by making Christ's salvation something that has power in it, but doesn't necessarily accomplish everything that it intends.

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Amen, and just as we use the term limited atonement, we are referring only to the scope of which that atonement is intended, and we believe that the power of that atonement is limitless, that is unlimited power, because everyone for whom that atonement was made will be atoned for, will be redeemed.

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Am I right? Yes, and that's rooted in the person who dies for them, because you have a sacrifice that is made by the incarnate

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Son of God, so he in himself, it is his worth, it is his value that secures and establishes salvation.

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In that sense, there's no limit in Christ himself. He saves all upon whom

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God has set his love. Amen, because even the Arminian believes there is a limited aspect to the atonement, because unless they are full -blown universalists who believe everyone will be in heaven, perhaps even the devil, they believe that the atonement was limited to those who offer faith to Christ.

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So even they have a limited atonement, and in fact, as Charles Spurgeon had said,

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Charles Spurgeon, who was a full -blown, thoroughgoing five -point Calvinist of the 19th century, the

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Prince of Preachers, who is beloved of Christians spanning the theological spectrum, he said that it is the

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Arminians who really limit the atonement, because they limit its power. It is not saving everyone for whom it is intended, in fact, it is saving a minority of those for whom it is intended.

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Yes, yeah, I mean, you're left saying, if Christ died for all the sins of all men, then all must be saved, and that's not taught in the

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Scriptures, and neither is it seen in the world. If Christ died for some sins of all men, then all are damned, and that's clearly not the case, but if Christ died for all of the sins of some people, then they truly are saved.

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They must be. It would be, you know, God would not be God if it were otherwise. Now, if we were to list prominent figures from history who would be in this category of historic

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Calvinism, if you want to call it old Calvinism, this would be

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John Calvin, obviously, it would be Charles Spurgeon, who we have just mentioned, it would be

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John Bunyan, the author of Pilgrim's Progress and other works,

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George Whitfield, the great Revival preacher, we could go on and on, even through Jonathan Edwards, and to our current day, we have

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Dr. R .C. Sproul, a very well -known Calvinist, Dr. John MacArthur, who is a dispensationalist

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Calvinist, and so on. But now we're getting into the area where I'd like you to define what is the new

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Calvinism, because I think that there may be even different ways of interpreting that phrase that people have used to identify what that is.

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There seems to be some level of disagreement or misunderstanding about what new Calvinism is and who would fall under the umbrella of that title, but if you could give in your understanding, what is new

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Calvinism? Well I hope you'll allow me to to work a little from the book in this case.

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Oh, of course. Because when we talk about the new Calvinism, we have to really zero in on this matter of the doctrine of salvation.

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Calvinism, I think you could contend, historically, the old Calvinism, if you like, is much larger than simply the doctrine of salvation.

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It has to do with that apprehension of God and his majesty, where God is enthroned and all relates to him as the true and living

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God and the creator of all things. And we've talked a little bit about the so -called doctrines of grace, those realities of a

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God who seeks and saves sinners. The new

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Calvinism really zeroes in on this matter of soteriology or the doctrine of salvation.

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Generally speaking, they are going to be what would typically be called five -point

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Calvinists, although some of them would be probably four -and -a -half point

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Calvinists. That is, they would have more of an issue with the doctrine of limited atonement or particular redemption.

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And so you're zeroing on that element of the system of Calvinistic doctrine that is generally associated with John Calvin.

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So alongside of that close focus on the sovereignty of God in salvation,

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I think the next thing that you would say is that the new Calvinism, especially in its heyday, and perhaps we can pick this up later, because I think that in some senses that the peak of the wave may have passed, but it was a system or a movement of key characters or figureheads, most of them what would now probably still be called celebrity pastors, men with a measure of prominence in certain circles, men with a measure of real popularity.

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So you'd be talking about people like John Piper, Mark Dever, C .J.

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Mahaney, Al Moller, Mark Driscoll, Matt Chandler, Kevin de

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Young, Ligon Duncan, Tim Keller, Don Carson, Wayne Grudem, Justin Taylor, Tim Challies.

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I think you could argue you could push it out a little bit toward people like R .C. Sproul and John McArthur. And on the other side of the spectrum,

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James MacDonald, Francis Chan. I'm not saying that all of these would all subscribe in the same way, but these are the kinds of names that would be in the mix.

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And some of those really come from a book that I realized just the other day was actually published ten years ago, a book called

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Young, Reformed, and Restless by Colin Hansen. And he was one of the first ones to put these sort of big names together and say that there's something coalescing around them.

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So you've got these characters, these figureheads, the big cheeses, if you will, of the movement.

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And then I think alongside of that you've also got the issue of conferences, networks, networks of networks, organizations like the

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Gospel Coalition and the Together for the Gospel Conference. Those sorts of environments.

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Acts 29 would be another one where you've got people coming together, working together, and working together with others who are working together.

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So you've got these overlaps developing, usually again around some of the key figureheads.

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So that's certainly part of the picture. And then when I wrote the book, and the book itself is three or four years old, which means it is in itself to some extent already out of date because the movement keeps shifting.

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And what was consolidating a few years ago when I wrote the book has in some sense is now changed.

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Some of those figureheads have moved on, some of them in positive ways, some of them in very disappointing or distressing ways.

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But those would be some of the things which I would use to situate the

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New Calvinism as a whole. It's primarily been a modern

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American movement, and its lifespan as a recognizable movement, you could probably argue the last 10 to 15 years.

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But in terms of some of the key texts and the seminal figures, you're probably going back to the mid -1980s and the emergence of a man like John Piper and Desiring God as a popular book.

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Well it was interesting that you identified two folks that you would consider a part of the

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New Calvinism that I actually just cited as being contemporary

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Calvinists who live today, who seem to uphold the historic teachings of the faith.

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One man that you and I both uphold very highly as a modern -day figure,

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Dr. Joel Beeky. Would you consider him a New Calvinist? Because he has been on the same panel with Dr.

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R .C. Sproul and has cooperated with him in literature and so on. So how would you view the difference between those two men?

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I think the important thing to recognize is that because of the nature of this system, the nature of the movement, there are people who would not on some level be called

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New Calvinists, either by themselves or by others, who are in dialogue with people who would probably be quite content to be known as a

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New Calvinist. So when I mention people like John MacArthur, for example, what you've got there is a man who's actually issued some fairly stirring critiques of the

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New Calvinist movement, and yet there are people within that movement with whom he would still retain a very warm and friendly relationship.

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Because one of the vital things to remember is that the New Calvinism is not monolithic.

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It is not a single point, as it were, but it is a spectrum. There are people who share some of those fundamental convictions and characteristics, but in other respects they can be quite far apart from one another.

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So some of them would be very happy in conversation with a man like R .C. Sproul, who

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I believe has spoken at things like the Together for the Gospel conference, as has John MacArthur, but at the same time there are other environments in which

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I doubt, for example, either of those men or someone like Dr. Beaky would be particularly welcome. They'd probably be considered a little old -school, outmoded, and out of touch.

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So when we're talking about names, you have to work out sort of where they fit in the complex of diagrams, if you like, the complex diagram, the overlapping circles of people and movements who have some contact in this milieu, in this range of activity.

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And we're going to do our first break right now. If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own for Jeremy Walker about the new

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Calvinism considered, whether you agree with what he's saying, whether you disagree, whether you just don't know, we would love to hear from you.

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And please give us at least your first name, city and state, and country of residence, if you live outside the

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USA. And we understand that there are certain circumstances that would compel you to remain anonymous.

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If you're critiquing your own church or someone else's church, we don't want you to necessarily identify yourself or them by name, but what have you.

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If you can, though, we would appreciate knowing your first name, city and state, and country of residence. Our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

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chrisarnsen at gmail .com. C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

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Don't go away. We'll be right back with Jeremy Walker. I'm James White of Alpha Omega Ministries.

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Welcome back, this is Chris Arns. And if you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours is Jeremy Walker.

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We are discussing his book The New Calvinism Considered, a personal and pastoral assessment.

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I just wanted to read a couple of endorsements for this book. Phil Johnson, Executive Director at Grace to You, which is the ministry of John MacArthur, who we mentioned earlier.

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The New Calvinism is a nebulous movement still in flux, not an easy subject for analysis and critique.

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Is this a resurgence of biblical and Calvinist conviction or the latest evangelical fad?

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Jeremy Walker makes a thoughtful, instructive, even -handed assessment of the most visible and influential streams of the

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New Calvinism. He acknowledges encouraging and beneficial aspects of the movement, but also identifies and carefully critiques several troubling tendencies.

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The result is a prospective and profitable appraisal of a complex, sometimes confusing, trend among young evangelicals, and a clear signpost pointing the right way ahead for a movement at the crossroads.

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And that was Phil Johnson, as I mentioned. Carl Truman, who's also been a guest on this program, a professor of historical theology and church history at Westminster Theological Seminary in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, says, as the young, restless, and reformed movements appear to be slowly but surely running its course, the big question is, what has it provided that is of lasting value, and where has it fallen short of expectations and, indeed, of biblical orthodoxy?

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This short booklet by Jeremy Walker seeks to address these questions in a manner that is both ironic and critical, a very useful contribution to the literature on the subject.

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And Sam Waldron, who's a friend of mine and been a guest on this program a number of times,

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Dr. Sam Waldron, academic dean of the Midwest Center for Theological Studies, and I think that they have changed that name to Covenant Baptist Seminary, if I'm not mistaken, he says, if you are not sure what to think of the

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New Calvinism, you need to read this book. If you have friends struggling with it, you need to give them this book.

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If you are being reproached for not embracing it, use the arguments and cautions of this book to defend yourself.

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If you are in danger of rejecting the whole of New Calvinism root and branch, you need the care of this book to restrain you.

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My prayer is that God will give this little book great usefulness. So this is quite a number of very impressive endorsements by some very honorable men of God.

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And we do have a listener in Slovenia, Joe, who has asked a question regarding your book.

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And I have to enlarge the print on Joe's question, because it's very small type face that he has come across on his email.

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Let's see here, please ask Brother Walker to help me understand if what I've been reading about the

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New Calvinists is an accurate summary of the main issues. It seems like there are issues of doctrinal errors which are divergent from historical

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Calvinism, such as antinomianism, worldliness, contemporary and aberrant worship forms, and emergent and missional church spirituality errors.

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Is this an accurate summary? Could you please elaborate? That's Joe in Slovenia.

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That's a very good question, a very pointed question. I would say to Joe, first of all, to remember that the movement as a whole is a spectrum, that along that line there would be men and women, and good men and women, who would consider those things that Joe has raised and would be horrified by them.

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One of the challenges of the New Calvinism is that there are also a number of people within that movement who

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I think would indeed pursue, endorse, and in some sense even celebrate those things that Joe is identifying as very specific dangers.

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So the challenge is that I don't think you can point at the New Calvinism as a whole and say everybody who would call themselves a

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New Calvinist or might be associated with the movement would be guilty of some or all of those aberrations.

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At the same time, you would have to ask of each of those people, are they, and if so, to what extent?

38:08

So yes, those are some of the concerns that I would have about some of those who call themselves

38:13

New Calvinists. Well thank you Joe in Slovenia, and thank you for providing an address here in the

38:20

United States for your daughter, because that's where we're going to be mailing a free copy of a book that you've just won, titled

38:28

The New Calvinism Considered a Personal and Pastoral Assessment by our guest Jeremy Walker, and we thank

38:34

Evangelical Press for providing these free copies of this book, and we also thank

38:40

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service for shipping this book out to you. That's cvbbs .com,

38:48

and we thank Todd and Patty Jennings for their generosity and always shipping out the listeners in our audience their free

38:56

Bibles, books, CDs, DVDs, and other items that they have won by submitting questions to our guests.

39:06

So thanks a lot for submitting that question, Joe in Slovenia. And we have a question from Stephanie in Greensboro, North Carolina.

39:20

Who says, are there some dangers in the New Calvinism, and why are so many of the younger preachers attracted to it?

39:30

That's another very good question. Are there some dangers in the

39:36

New Calvinism? Yes, I believe that there are, but why are so many of the younger preachers attracted to it?

39:44

Because it's not all dangers. If I can take a few moments to explain to...is

39:51

it Stephanie you said was the lady's name? Yes, it is. Yes, Stephanie. Thank you for your question, Stephanie.

39:57

I think if you look at the movement as a whole, I think that it does have some fine features that many of those who would call themselves

40:08

New Calvinists would share. I think at its root it sets out to be a

40:13

Christ -oriented and God -honoring movement. They make much of the grace of God in Christ.

40:22

I think that it is properly missional in many senses.

40:28

It's robustly complementarian, although that's thrown up some issues and problems of its own.

40:34

It's a very inventive and in some ways an aggressive movement.

40:42

It doesn't sort of sit around, doesn't sit on its hands, and it's a preaching movement.

40:48

At its best, it focuses on the declaration of the Word of God, and that's where the best of its participants and proponents would begin.

40:58

I think if you put all of those things together and see something of the energy, the engagement, the appreciation for and delight in God that is characteristic of the movement at its best, that the zeal for preaching, the desire to make

41:19

Christ known, I think that those would be reasons why it is so attractive to many younger preachers.

41:26

Now it markets itself very well as a development, if you like, of the old

41:33

Calvinism, that this is something that is new and fresh. I think it can be a little dismissive of certain aspects of the older Calvinism, but if you've got someone who is, to use that language, young and restless, who wants to do something, who wants to serve the

41:50

Lord Christ, and who perhaps feels that in a scene where perhaps there is not much felt opportunity to get stuck in, to get your teeth into things, then the new

42:06

Calvinism would in some ways be holding an open door to you and saying, look, come over and join us, and we'd be happy to help you, and we'd be happy to have you, and we'd be happy to have you serve.

42:18

So I think that's one of the reasons why it's attractive to younger ministers, because at its best and with its strength, it really does give every appearance of offering something that perhaps they would say they are not finding in other spheres.

42:35

But to answer the second part of Stephanie's question, yeah, there are some dangers that I perceive, and again, some of these are outlined in the book.

42:45

The six that I particularly identify in one of the chapters in the book are what

42:51

I think is a tendency to commercialism and pragmatism with regard to the church and its life.

42:57

I think there's a cultural carelessness. I think there's a lack of awareness about the lack of neutrality in the world and the culture as a whole.

43:10

I think there is in many a troubling approach to holiness. That would go back to what

43:15

Joe was saying about a tendency toward antinomianism or a disregard for the law of God in practice in some.

43:23

I think some of the bedfellows that there are within the New Calvinism and outside it are dangerous people.

43:31

I think there's a big question mark over the person and the work of the

43:38

Holy Spirit as he's perceived by many New Calvinists. It is largely a continuationist movement, and I also think, again, and this was particularly prominent of the movement at its peak,

43:51

I think there was a measure of arrogance in some of those who would have been at the forefront, and sadly some of those who are most bombastic are among those who have fallen furthest.

44:07

Now you mentioned one thing that may have gone over the heads of some of our listeners as a positive attribute that seems to be typical amongst the

44:18

New Calvinists, the complementarian understanding of the genders in the body of Christ.

44:25

That means that although men and women are equal in the sight of God, man is not superior to woman, there are different gender roles in the church and the home where the man has headship.

44:42

Would I be correct at that description of complementarianism? Yeah, that accords with my understanding, yes.

44:49

And this, as you said, has been upheld and quite firmly upheld by many, if not most, in this

44:58

New Calvinism from what you said earlier. Correct. But you said there was also some kind of a negative response to that in some regard, if you could explain further on that.

45:12

Yes, I think that there's a danger when theology is primarily reactive, by which

45:21

I mean that you don't correct an error by getting as far away from it as possible and presuming the distance from error is therefore truth.

45:31

So I do wonder if some of the reaction to what has been a cultural assault on those distinctive gender roles and the relationships that therefore spring out of them has led to some perhaps over -emphasizing or going beyond what

45:51

God says with regard to masculinity and femininity, so that in some cases there has been a sort of a machismo, a sort of, well, chest -beating

46:04

Neanderthalism for some with regard to men, that there's been perhaps to some extent a carelessness with regard to the role of women.

46:17

In some environments that's turned into a hyped -up sexuality, but at the same time there are issues, big discussions over the place and the role of women.

46:32

So I think those would be some of my particular concerns. And more recently,

46:38

Chris, as you will be well aware, the whole issue of the male -female relationship, particularly in marriage, and whether or not it could or should be considered in any way analogous to the relationship of the persons in the

46:59

Godhead. And I think that's a very interesting development in which if we make the creature the focus and the starting point of our theology rather than the

47:14

Creator, there's a danger that we will get off -beam in working up to God from man rather than down to man from God.

47:24

You're probably speaking of the current controversy regarding the Trinity that's swirling around?

47:31

Yeah. Okay. Yeah, we have touched on that a bit and perhaps we will continue to do programs with both sides represented on that.

47:41

But now, as far as the... you mentioned something that was dangerous regarding the sexuality of the movement.

47:50

What exactly were you referring to in that regard? Sure. I think there's been, as I say, a chismo that's come into some of those circles, and it became quite childish in some respects.

48:04

There was even, smutty at points, an unhealthy focus on sex and sexuality.

48:10

In the marriage bed, though, I'm assuming. In what, sorry? In the marriage bed, confined to the marriage bed, you're talking about.

48:18

I mean, yeah, well, yes, the discussion would have presumed that this was focused on the marriage bed, but I think that discussion in itself could become so, so specific that it actually created problems rather than solved them.

48:36

It could put ideas into your mind that you've never had there before, and which, for some people at least, would have been profoundly unhealthy.

48:48

And, you know, at the same time, one of the ongoing challenges, one of the great means by which

48:58

Satan seeks to bring down ministers of the gospel, alongside power and money, would be sex.

49:07

And that has been happening here and there. Now, I'm by no means suggesting that it's restricted to this movement, but I think it underlines how carefully and how sensitively one needs to deal with these kinds of topics.

49:23

And I'm assuming some of the machismo aspect would be a hyper sense, a hyper patriarchalism, is that what you're referring to?

49:32

Yeah, I think that can come into it, certainly. In some senses, in some circles, it would be very much that hyper patriarchalism, with the emphasis on the father as the head of his home, in a way that would almost make him a spiritual representative, almost acting on behalf of all others, in a way that I think would would be beyond what the

50:01

Word of God addresses. But on the other hand, even a sort of a childish machismo that would trample upon the sort of responsibility that the more patriarchal movement would want to emphasize.

50:22

It's a strange beast, it pulls in various directions. Well, by the way, Stephanie, you have also won a free copy of the new

50:30

Calvinism Considered a Personal and Pastoral Assessment by Jeremy Walker. So if you make sure we have your mailing address, we'll have

50:37

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, CVBBS .com, ship that out to you.

50:43

And we thank them for doing that, and we also thank, once again, Evangelical Press for providing us with the free copies of this book.

50:52

And we do have another listener. We have

50:59

John in Peoria, Illinois, who says, Do you think that the

51:04

New Calvinism movement as a whole has had a negative impact on traditional

51:10

Reformed churches? That's a fantastic question from John.

51:21

I think in some instances it may have had a very positive impact on some churches.

51:30

I would hope that in some senses it has stirred up certain churches.

51:37

It's made us look at ourselves again. It's perhaps brought things back into our notice, some good and proper emphases that perhaps have been missing.

51:50

I think one of the things, again tying in with Stephanie's question, one of the things that makes it so attractive, especially to eager younger men and women, is that across the board you've got within the

52:04

New Calvinism people who are excited, delighted, captured and enraptured by the wonders of God's grace in Christ in a way that hasn't always perhaps been apparent in other circles.

52:18

So in that sense I would hope that it has done much good. There are things that it's brought to the fore, especially that it's healthiest.

52:27

I think as some of the people like the Nine Marks guys with their emphasis on healthy aspects of church life,

52:36

I would hope that that would have done good. But at the same time, yes, I think there have been some issues and questions and some emphases that perhaps have undermined what

52:50

I would have considered churches that are fundamentally healthy in their doctrine.

52:58

I think there are areas, questions that have been raised. I don't think the questions are necessarily bad questions all the time, but I don't agree with all of the answers.

53:10

So there are areas, for example, with regard to our approach to holiness, for example, the issue of issues to do with worship, playing down differences about the person and the work, the role of the

53:31

Holy Spirit, the nature of biblical authority as opposed to so -called modern -day prophecy, where those things have had an influence and an impact.

53:42

I think there have often been some very painful and difficult damage might have been done in some circles, yes.

53:51

And we have to let our guest call us back in a different line, so we're going to a station break right now.

53:56

If you'd like to join us as well on the air, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

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Don't go away, we'll be right back with Jeremy Walker and more of the New Calvinism considered right after these messages from our sponsors.

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59:18

Welcome back, this is Chris Arnzen. If you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours, with one hour to go, is

59:25

Jeremy Walker. He is discussing his, one of his books, The New Calvinism Considered a

59:31

Personal and Pastoral Assessment. If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com

59:42

c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com, and there are a couple of you that have sent in questions with your name, but not your city, and state, or country, so if you could just send us also your place of residence, that would be helpful.

01:00:00

It appears that you're not requesting to be anonymous, so we would like to have your city, state, and country of residence, because we'd like to have an idea of the scope of where our listeners are contacting us from.

01:00:13

And Chris out there, who has sent in a very good question, if you could let us know your city, state, and country of residence as soon as possible, and we'll read your question.

01:00:25

And the email address again is chrisarnzen at gmail .com,

01:00:32

chrisarnzen at gmail .com. And our friend

01:00:38

Chris has let us know where he's from, Runnells, Iowa, and I'm sorry, or Runnels, Iowa, sorry if I'm mispronouncing that Chris, but he asks, can you ask

01:00:51

Jeremy what are some of the negative or detrimental contributions of the new

01:00:57

Calvinist movement? Well, he's already started to list some, if you could include some more, Jeremy.

01:01:03

Sure, if I speak a little more specifically to some of these situations, some of these concerns that I would have,

01:01:12

I think the pragmatism and the commercialism that I mentioned, that's really a market approach to church, where there's a there's an appetite,

01:01:25

I think, for counting in the new Calvinism at its worst, a boastfulness perhaps with regard to numbers, so rather than weighing, you count.

01:01:39

And if counting is important, then whatever boosts the numbers becomes more important than anything else.

01:01:47

And so you would end up perhaps with a very commercial model to church, you just put together the team that you need, you're trying to build the numbers, you just want to get the bandwagon rolling, the whole program becomes a mechanical process to simply make things work.

01:02:09

And with that comes a sort of an excitement when you get big enough to be noticeable, the obsession perhaps with mega churches or multi -campus churches, and the showmanship that sometimes goes along with that, buying into the way that the world does things in order to get, to attract people, to get attention,

01:02:39

I think that would be one of the particular problems that I would identify.

01:02:45

And then I think alongside of that, an unbalanced view with regard to culture, that there can be a failure to reckon with the world as fallen, the idea that you can pretty much adapt anything that the world has got, that you can draw it into the church, that you can just adapt it, that it's essentially neutral, and all you need to do is to put it in a

01:03:14

Christian context and to make it work. So I think that emphasis on contextualization is very dangerous, even so far as to take

01:03:29

Paul's dictum that he became all things to all men, that by all means you might win some, to use that statement as if it is a principle for the church as a whole to adapt to the culture, rather than, as Paul used it, a statement that he was willing to suspend his personal liberties as a

01:03:52

Christian for the sake of the gospel, I think is very dangerous. You'll see that in the fact that a lot of these men, and I mean a lot of them, a good number of them, simply seem too clever, at least by some standards, to accept something as straightforward as six -day creation.

01:04:12

Now I know there are differences of opinion on that, but the extent to which some of these men have traveled away from that,

01:04:20

I think is very dangerous. The holiness issue, I think there's an underlying antinomianism in some of the

01:04:30

New Calvinism. Now again, I'm not saying that most of the big names are a wholesale rejecting the holiness of God, that would be far from the truth, but I think there is an undermining of the law of God in some circles, an aversion to the idea of obedience and duty as a principled commitment to the

01:04:55

Lord, a sort of a desire to almost have a more passive approach to holiness.

01:05:03

And again, there have been discussions within the movement on this, and there have been some good voices making things very, very plain.

01:05:10

I think the continuationism that's so current in the New Calvinism is a concern.

01:05:17

It's almost as troubling that the discussion seems to have been suspended.

01:05:23

Let's not talk about our differences on the Holy Spirit, but I think some of those differences are very significant.

01:05:31

They come down even to the very matter of the source of our authority as a church. So these would be some of the sorts of things that would put a little more meat on those bones, that would trouble me deeply about parts of that New Calvinist spectrum.

01:05:48

And obviously, as you've already mentioned, there is a wide spectrum within the

01:05:54

New Calvinism, because if you were to put John MacArthur in that category, he obviously had a strange fire conference that was very clearly in opposition to the continuationist understanding of the sign gifts and so on.

01:06:11

Absolutely, and I would say even in the last couple of years, whether or not this is fair or not,

01:06:19

I don't know, but if you take, say, the trajectory of the movement,

01:06:25

John MacArthur would have been, and as far as I know, is very friendly with some of the good men who would probably align themselves as New Calvinist.

01:06:37

But if you look at some of the notes that John MacArthur struck in the last couple of years, some of the things he's addressed to those who would be in the movement, and such things as the strange fire conference, again, this is the danger with a shifting movement as this one is.

01:06:57

I think you'd have to say now that John MacArthur is probably as far from being a New Calvinist as he ever was.

01:07:04

Well, you had Phil Johnson write a very nice endorsement for your book, and he's obviously

01:07:09

Dr. MacArthur's executive director. Yeah, I hope he's not spinning now, thinking, what's he doing, tiring my man with that brush?

01:07:21

You know, I think, sure, if John MacArthur chooses to go together for the gospel, to preach the good news about Jesus Christ amongst people who would share many of his convictions on many of these things, then that's up to him.

01:07:41

I mean, I'm not trying to take pot shots at the guy, but at the same time, I think when you're, you know, some of the critiques he's made have been extremely telling, and if anything,

01:07:55

I think they've stirred up a lot of trouble, because people have not remotely appreciated some of the straight talking that John MacArthur has done about the movement.

01:08:08

And I still am one of those people that are on the fence about this movement.

01:08:16

I have had guests who are on opposing sides of this issue on my program, but I do share some apprehensions.

01:08:26

Would you say that one of the things that seems to be all too prevalent, and you can't really just isolate this to New Calvinism, because even some very old

01:08:39

Calvinists have done this, but there seems to be a flaunting of Christian liberty in regard to the imbibing of alcohol, a rubbing in your face the liberty to drink without any apparent concern for not only those who have had problems, even like myself,

01:09:03

I have had some unfortunately horrible, sinful episodes in my life where addiction to alcohol was a unfortunate blemish on my reputation, and thankfully have been delivered from that and restored fully to the church and so on.

01:09:24

But also, it seems an unnecessary thing to do when you're trying to share the doctrines of grace with our fundamentalist brethren who, you know, may be anti -Calvinist in regard to soteriology, when you're loading this unnecessary baggage on the reputation of Calvinism, it just makes it a harder hill to climb, if you follow what

01:09:49

I'm saying. But if you could comment on that. Personally, I believe that on the issue of drinking alcohol,

01:10:01

I think that is a matter of Christian liberty. Drunkenness, of course, clearly isn't, but I think you're right to say that there can be a danger of flaunting liberty.

01:10:14

I think when the Apostle speaks about our Christian liberties, Paul, I'm not speaking of specifically, but I think it's a general principle in the

01:10:23

Scriptures. Christian liberty is never a matter of getting as close as you can to the edge and hoping that you don't fall over.

01:10:33

The Christian's freedom is the freedom to be holy in accordance with the Word, the call of God to a life of godliness.

01:10:42

And so, either personally, to take that as an excuse to do, almost to get away with as much as possible and hope it doesn't just fall into the category of sin,

01:10:55

I think is extremely dangerous. I also think it's profoundly ungracious, because if there is a matter of conscience for somebody, then

01:11:04

I think it is vitally important that we do not trample upon that, even if we consider that our freedoms in Christ would allow us to do something which a particular brother or sister would not do.

01:11:18

So, yeah, to flaunt, and not just in the matter of alcohol consumption, but to flaunt what one considers one's own freedoms, things in which one could appreciate that might be either dangerous to others or that would be unpalatable to others,

01:11:39

I think there can be something that is profoundly unhelpful in that.

01:11:46

But that also cuts both ways. You know, you mentioned fundamentalism.

01:11:54

There's a liberty that must be extended from both sides. Oh yes, definitely.

01:12:03

But it appears that some of our Reformed Brethren want to add an

01:12:08

S and make the acronym for tulips and the S standing for scotch.

01:12:15

If anybody would crash enough to make that suggestion, then

01:12:20

I would suggest that five flowers are quite enough.

01:12:31

And we do have Jeff, oh by the way, Chris, who contacted us earlier from Runnels, Iowa.

01:12:42

Since you're a first -time questioner, you're not only going to win, or you not only already have won, a free copy of The New Calvinism Considered by Jeremy Walker, you're also getting a free

01:12:56

New American Standard Bible. On top of that, since you are a first -time questioner on the program, this is a beautiful edition of the

01:13:04

NASB. It has an embossed cross on the cover. It's a size that is not too small, so you can hardly read the print.

01:13:13

And it's not too big that it's cumbersome to carry around with you. It's just big enough to read easily and also fit in a perhaps a winter coat pocket, a briefcase, a woman's purse, or pocketbook.

01:13:29

It's not quite a pocket size for your shirt pocket, but it is a really wonderful edition of this

01:13:34

Bible. And this is compliments of the publishers of the NASB. And it will be shipped to you again by our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, CVBBS .com.

01:13:45

And we thank you for being a first -time questioner today on Iron Sharpens Iron, Chris.

01:13:51

We have Jeff from Clinton Township, Michigan, who says, just having turned 60,

01:14:00

I want to make sure I'm not being unreasonable. I fled the world of drugs, alcohol, and carnal living directly after having been saved.

01:14:09

I'm surprised at how some at my church enjoy cussing, whiskey, cigars, and tattoos.

01:14:15

I was told if it's not condemned in the Bible, I shouldn't be critical of it. It's my opinion that personal piety and a desire for holiness seems to have been replaced.

01:14:27

And that was Jeff from Clinton Township. Well, I think that you, Jeremy, gave a balanced answer to that already, that you believe that there are things that are within the liberty of a

01:14:37

Christian to partake in them and enjoy them with moderation, but at the same time it's dangerous to flaunt them and be very irresponsible with them.

01:14:49

Yeah, and Jeff's question puts together a very interesting mix of issues there.

01:14:56

Can you read out, I think you said four things. There was cussing. What were the other three things?

01:15:01

Let's see, he says, I'm surprised at how some at my church enjoy cussing, whiskey, cigars, and tattoos.

01:15:12

Okay, cussing, whiskey, cigars, tattoos.

01:15:19

Now, I think that there may be things in that list that in the right circumstances and under the right conditions, one could legitimately enjoy.

01:15:34

But there are also, yeah. Obviously cussing, you wouldn't consider that an option for Christians.

01:15:44

See, if someone, let's say somebody comes in to the church and they're covered in tattoos and they get converted, then yeah, they may not have, they may choose never to get another tattoo, but they may not ever be in a position to get rid of any of the tattoos that they do have.

01:16:05

But yeah, certainly I think something like the issue of cursing, foul language,

01:16:13

I don't think there's any space allowed for that. There's no indulgence in that that is provided for by the

01:16:21

Word of God. Now, there's some strong and forceful language in the Word of God, that's beyond doubt.

01:16:27

But on the one hand, to put those things together is to mix categories.

01:16:35

On the other, I think what is important is that for many people in our culture, not everybody perhaps, but if those things go together, if you saw somebody who was covered in tattoos, swigging a bottle of scotch, smoking a big old stogie, and with the foulest of mouths, you would probably draw some conclusions about whether or not that person is holy.

01:17:02

And if you had all those things together in that way, then you'd probably be entitled to draw certain conclusions about whether or not there's any real holiness there.

01:17:11

And so I think there is a question here. You know, if that's what my liberty looks like, then it looks an awful...

01:17:19

if that's the package that Christian liberty provides for, then that looks an awful lot like the friendship with the world that is enmity with God.

01:17:29

Now, individually, there may be a question about some of those things, but if that's the package, and that's considered to be a declaration of Christian liberty to, if you will, and I'm using pejorative language, to indulge carelessly in that whole...

01:17:49

in a combination of those, then yes, I think that raises serious questions about what holiness really looks like.

01:17:58

Well, Jeff in Clinton Township, you've also won a free copy of The New Calvinism Considered by Jeremy Walker.

01:18:04

Please make sure that you provide your mailing address for us. We have

01:18:10

Tony in Rockhill, South Carolina, and Tony says,

01:18:18

I am a bit taken aback that you do not want to mention names, as in some cases it is very much necessary to warn

01:18:26

God's people about some of the folks in this movement. I was exposed to the theology of Tim Keller in a church plant and was very, very troubled by what

01:18:34

I heard there. I have since been very busy warning others about this very prominent teacher within reform circles, and I would like to know if Mr.

01:18:44

Walker is familiar with Dr. Keller, and if so, would he share his opinion? Now, obviously,

01:18:50

I guess Tony must have tuned in late because you did name names, so I'm not sure why she's making that claim, and you actually mentioned

01:18:58

Dr. Keller, but if you could perhaps elaborate. Certainly. One of the amusing things of trying to write a book like this is that some people are horrified at the names you mention, some people are horrified that you don't mention more names, and again, with Dr.

01:19:17

Keller, as with anybody else, you need to say, okay, on which of these issues would you have questions or concerns?

01:19:25

So I think there are points at which Tim Keller is in danger of contextualizing, to what

01:19:36

I think is an unnecessary extent. There are emphases in some of his works, and I've identified these in certain extended book reviews that I've done where I would have a problem.

01:19:50

I think the fact that he essentially, as far as I know, goes in for what is called theistic evolution, which

01:20:00

I believe is the idea that God really sets the ball rolling with regard to the creation of the world, but then allows it to go on from that.

01:20:11

I'm not sure how you can identify Adam and Eve as some kind of point in the line of hominid development or whatever that would involve, and say that that's in accord with the teaching of the

01:20:25

Scriptures, both with regard to the creation of the world and then the salvation of souls. So yeah, with regard to someone like Tim Keller, I would have some significant concerns and questions about some of the doctrines to which he holds, some of the emphases with which he holds certain doctrines, and also some questions about the practical outworking of some of those things in the ministry of the

01:20:54

Church, in the life of the Church, and in our relationship to the world around us.

01:21:03

Yes, so thank you very much for that, I think, very thorough answer to Tony's question.

01:21:10

And sometimes I do not mention names on the program because I don't know enough about this person to make sure that I'm not slandering someone, but I think

01:21:24

I can agree with everything that has been said. I know that Tim Keller is greatly loved by a lot of people who are very good friends of mine, and people

01:21:34

I respect, and others that I know have very serious concerns about the direction that he is going, or the place where he already is, especially in regard to things like theistic evolution and so on.

01:21:52

So I think, if I can as well, I think one of the things that's important here, and one of the things that is difficult, is that what we need to do in addressing a movement like the

01:22:04

New Calvinism is not basically turn it into a series of character assassinations, that we have to deal with the principles, the doctrines, and the issues, but the problem is that so often those principles, doctrines, and issues, and practices as well, are bound up with particular individuals with whom those things are associated.

01:22:27

But if I might give a sort of an example of how this works, it wasn't so long ago

01:22:32

I was having a conversation with two or three different people, and I asked them to give me a summary of their doctrinal position.

01:22:48

There was a particular situation, and I said, so tell me, what do you yourself believe? And the answer in two or three cases was to give me a list of names, and say, well

01:23:02

I kind of believe what all those people believe. And I said, well the problem is that they don't all believe the same things.

01:23:11

You know, some of them are Baptists, some of them are more Reformed or Confessional Baptists, some of them are not, some of them are

01:23:19

Presbyterians, some of them are Covenantalists, some of them are New Covenant teachers, some of them are

01:23:26

Dispensationalists. So you do get this difficulty where people are basically aligning themselves with a man or men, and that's because those those individuals are associated with particular doctrines or practices.

01:23:47

So we mustn't be afraid to name names, we mustn't be afraid to raise those issues in connection with names, but at the same time we've got to be, as you said, we must be scrupulously fair where we can be in not imputing evil where that is not legitimately done, and in not simply smashing people for the sake of smashing them.

01:24:14

It's got to be done righteously and reasonably, I believe, if we're to honor a just and righteous

01:24:20

God. Now I have the book in my possession, but I just purchased it recently and have not yet read it, but I was wondering if you are familiar with the book that was edited by Ian Campbell, Engaging with Keller, Thinking Through the

01:24:37

Theology of an Influential Evangelical. I know it and it's one of the books

01:24:42

I was referring to when I said I've, well, I've reviewed books by Tim Keller and I've reviewed that book about Tim Keller as well, yes,

01:24:50

I know it. Oh, so do you recommend it? Do you agree with the conclusions of the author? The author is plural?

01:24:57

I think it is a book that has many good things in it.

01:25:02

I do not agree with all of the contributors. There are some chapters that are magnificent, there are a good number that I think are very insightful to do, for example, with his teaching on eternal punishment, his hermeneutical approach, but there are other chapters that I also think are weaker.

01:25:31

They may be addressing real issues, but I'm not persuaded that they address them in the best way.

01:25:40

In some cases I think maybe he might be allowed to get away with a few things, or in others

01:25:46

I think the critique could be more effectively stated and addressed.

01:25:52

I think it's an important book. I think it's a gracious book in many respects. I don't, with possibly one or two exceptions,

01:26:01

I think the contributors are generally very balanced and careful and properly gracious in their approach without pulling any punches.

01:26:11

So yeah, I think it's a very helpful book and I think it does raise many of the more significant issues with some of the teachings or the emphasis in teachings that have been characteristic of Tim Keller's public ministry.

01:26:24

Yes, one of the things that I'd like to talk to Pastor Keller about myself at some point that troubled me, one of which is that during the holiday season you will very often see on television, whether it's

01:26:40

National Geographic or the History Channel or one of the major television networks that have religious programming during the holidays, and I have seen

01:26:53

Dr. Keller on programs that feature atheists and agnostics who happen to be very historically learned about the actual historic

01:27:06

Jesus, who believe that he was a person who existed, such as Bart Ehrman and John Dominic Crossan, but who are agnostic nonetheless, and they will have these men grouped together with Tim Keller discussing things about, you know, the ancient church and about Judaism and about the the birth of Christ and some historical facts about that, and yet they will never separate the backgrounds or identities of these individuals for the audience's benefit.

01:27:44

For instance, you know, they won't say this is conservative evangelical Dr. Tim Keller's opinion and this is agnostic

01:27:53

Bart Ehrman's opinion. They don't do that. They just seem to link them all together as if they're all on the same team, if you follow what

01:27:59

I'm saying. Yeah, well, coming from this side of the pond, I'm mercifully spared having to make any judgments on that one,

01:28:06

I don't even have to watch it. Yeah, I think there's probably, from what you say, yes, that's something that I'd imagine that someone as clever as Tim Keller, as intelligent as Tim Keller seems to be,

01:28:29

I'd imagine that's something he's thought about and worked out, but as you say, if there's a danger there of confusing people as to what the gospel is or what real

01:28:40

Christianity really is, or seeming by involvement without distinction to endorse what would essentially be damning error, or at least fearful confusion, yeah,

01:28:56

I would understand why you would probably have question marks about that, but not having seen it, I wouldn't be in a position to make any further assessment.

01:29:04

And of course there's also an interview that he was involved in that made the rounds on YouTube, was probably still there, where he was asked about non -Christians going to heaven, and he basically concluded his comments by saying that, you know, from what the

01:29:21

Bible teaches, Jesus Christ and faith in him is the only way, but if there's a back door or a trap door that I don't know about, well, you know,

01:29:33

I can't comment on that. Well he was actually offering false hope, I believe, in that comment to those that reject

01:29:40

Christ. Now in all fairness, I may be wrong in saying this, but I believe that he subsequently sought to clarify that comment.

01:29:51

Whether or not he fully retracted it, I don't know. But yeah,

01:29:57

I think damage was done, and there's a significant concern there, that at a point at which there really can be no equivocation.

01:30:09

Christ Jesus is the only way, the only truth, the only life, that no one comes to the

01:30:15

Father but by him, that there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.

01:30:21

Those statements of the exclusivity of Christ as the one in whom we find the salvation of God need to be fiercely defended, but graciously.

01:30:32

Now what's happened subsequent to that, I don't know, but yeah, those are the kinds of things that I think raise legitimate concerns in the minds of observers.

01:30:43

And we have to go to our final break right now, and our email address, if you'd like to join us on the air, is chrisarnson at gmail .com,

01:30:51

chrisarnson at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence, if you live outside of the

01:30:59

USA, and please only remain anonymous if absolutely necessary. And we're going to be right back with the conclusion of our interview with Jeremy Walker on the new

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01:34:39

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01:35:20

That's G3conference .com. Thanks, James. Make sure you greet me at the

01:35:26

Iron Sharpens Iron exhibit booth while you're there. Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen.

01:35:31

If you just tuned us in, our guest has been for the last 90 minutes and the next half hour to come,

01:35:38

Jeremy Walker, the author of the book we're discussing, The New Calvinism Considered, A Personal and Pastoral Assessment.

01:35:46

And we hope to have Jeremy on many more times in the future to address other books he has written. And in fact, as soon as we get off the air with him in about 25 minutes,

01:35:56

I am going to schedule an interview or two with him if his schedule aligns up with mine because I have been really enjoying this interview thoroughly.

01:36:06

If you'd like to join us on the air with some questions of your own before we run out of time, our email address is

01:36:12

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. And by the way, I want to remind you that you just heard the voice of my friend

01:36:22

Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries, a theologically reformed apologetics ministry.

01:36:28

I've known Dr. White for a long time, since 1995, I've known Dr. White and I've been working with him arranging debates and speaking engagements.

01:36:38

And well, his daughter, Summer, who when I first met her was a very, very little girl who just couldn't get enough laughter by hearing me repeat the word coffee with my

01:36:50

New York accent. C -A -W -F -E -E. Coffee. And she used to have me repeat that over and over again.

01:36:58

Well, now she is a mother of two and she is quite an impressive young lady with a great knowledge of Scripture and has a ministry to women that she calls

01:37:12

Sheologians and she is not by any stretch of the imagination a feminist at all.

01:37:19

In fact, one of the things that she is trying to accomplish is to fight against the feminism that it seems to be creeping into the church in places where we never thought that it would gain a foothold.

01:37:35

And so she's gonna be my guest tomorrow for the very first time for the two hours on Iron Sharpens Iron.

01:37:41

I'm looking forward to that very much. So make sure you mark your calendars for tomorrow and set your alarm clock or whatever else you have to do to listen to the program.

01:37:52

And we do have another listener who has a question for Jeremy Walker and apparently he must have tuned in a little late too because you've already mentioned one of these individuals.

01:38:05

But Tyler in Mastic Beach, Long Island, New York asks are some of the proponents of the

01:38:10

New Calvinism Mark Driscoll and John Piper? Well, you've already mentioned John Piper.

01:38:16

If you care to mention Mark Driscoll at all and expand on that. Sure, so John Piper certainly would be one of the fathers or perhaps now grandfathers of the movement.

01:38:29

The book Desiring God would have been one of the seminal texts out of which the movement as a whole would have arisen with his distinctive view of the the primary emphasis of Jonathan Edwards.

01:38:45

And then Mark Driscoll and a Mark Driscoll is an interesting case because I think as anybody who's watched this scene will know there's been a movement a movement across a trajectory if you like.

01:39:01

And I think one of the disappointments with somebody like Mark Driscoll is that he came in from a pretty poor place but everybody was celebrating the fact that he was on what was called a good trajectory and defended him and there were things that he said that were that seemed very profitable in some things.

01:39:20

There were obviously big problems as well but he because of his genius for self -promotion became one of the key figureheads and the most prominent spokesman for the

01:39:34

New Calvinism and that was probably to their detriment because he followed on that trajectory and and sadly some of the men who would welcomed him and applauded him and promoted him they first fell silent which is understandable but when that trajectory of Mark Driscoll's carried him even further out they remained silent rather I think than dealing righteously but graciously with some of the the aberrations and the issues that were starting to arise

01:40:07

I mean by all means some of them did but but not all of them did a Mark Driscoll has traveled through that particular part of the the atmosphere and has gone out on the far side quite where he's at now what he's doing

01:40:20

I'm not sure but yes he would in his pomp have been one of the that the primary figureheads in the

01:40:30

New Calvinist movement but it seems to me that he has moved on and moved past that some of the the particular failings of the man and his ministry have put him outside the sphere now of the

01:40:44

New Calvinism but I think what was disappointing in some respects is what was said or not said why he was still very much within it well as you mentioned earlier and as I am repeating this is not a monolithic group because if you have

01:41:03

John MacArthur on the periphery of the movement and and Mark Driscoll was at one time certainly embedded in it and has gone further dr.

01:41:15

MacArthur would not even agree to be a part of a conference that he that Mark Driscoll was speaking at so dr.

01:41:22

MacArthur was never shy of pointing out what he considered to be the very significant issues with with Mark Driscoll in his ministry and to some extent with regard to concerns he had about his character yes and we have

01:41:36

Lou in Sharpsburg Georgia who wants to inform us that he tried to bring up on YouTube the interview with Martin Bashir and Tim Keller but was unable to because it said it was removed due to copyright issues well thank you for that Lou in Sharpsburg Georgia I want to really make sure before we run out of time that you have the floor for four or five minutes or more to really unburden your heart with what you most want etched in our listeners minds about this issue before they leave this program today pastor

01:42:17

Jeremy that's very kind well I don't want to overburden anybody but I think one of my real concerns and I know they're not everybody might feel that they're in a position to do this but we cannot simply follow men that I think is one of the things that's really come out of this there's been a an embrace of of men who've gone beyond perhaps being figureheads and reliable and safe guides and they've become become gurus and that the

01:42:52

Berean spirit has been utterly surrendered and remember both sides of the

01:42:58

Berean spirit it's receiving receiving readily the things that are taught by reliable teachers and then searching the scriptures to see whether those things are so and so I think we need to take each case on its merit we need to test the spirits as the

01:43:19

Word of God would have us to bring anybody who claims to be a preacher and a teacher to the the bar of scripture as a means of assessing to what extent they're a safe guide and readily to be received and followed but I think the one of the primary concerns that I have and it's something that that I'm seeing the fallout of more and more is that the way that this movement has taken off and the means by which it has done so has a very dangerous tendency to divorce people from the life of their own local church that a man hundreds or thousands of miles away from from where where you might live has effectively become your primary teacher if not absolutely your pastor and that has had in many instances a very unsettling effect on men and women who very often need stability they need the love and the care of the undershepherds of God's flock in a particular place who know them care for them and will minister to them as true servants of the

01:44:39

Lord Jesus Christ I'm not saying you can't listen to somebody outside of your immediate circle

01:44:46

I'm not saying you can't read those books but I think it is it is vitally importance important that Christians if we are to be healthy we need to be rooted in the

01:44:57

Word of God I think that that is it there's immense profit in not just being rooted in the

01:45:04

Word of God fundamentally but in a tried and tested understanding of the scriptures that that that this word this this

01:45:16

Bible of ours it is not up for grabs in that sense there's a there's an historic

01:45:22

Christian orthodoxy represented for example by some of the older confessions that that helps us to anchor our souls at the key points and that that anchoring of the soul is worked out in the life of a local church under the care of godly undershepherds and in company with others of God's people who will make this pilgrimage with you they will love you they will care for you they will encourage you and I would

01:45:54

I would urge anyone perhaps someone who's found out about the wonders of God's grace and these things they're saying well what where do we go next what do we do now but perhaps even someone who said yeah

01:46:06

I want I want more of the good things that I've seen here that's wonderful praise

01:46:11

God for his goodness in using these men to carry you in that direction but to go forward and to press on the the people of God with the

01:46:22

Word of God the the care of the the undershepherds that Christ is appointed these these are the the normal means by which

01:46:33

God will will advance that salvation which he in his great mercy is bestowed upon unworthy sinners like ourselves so root yourself in the local church immerse yourself in the

01:46:45

Word of God and that is that the healthiest and the happiest and ought to be the holiest place for you to pursue your your walk with the

01:46:55

Lord well praise God for that and our friend

01:47:00

Tony in Rock Hill South Carolina has once again sent an email and Tony says a great little book on this movement is by dr.

01:47:13

ES Williams titled the new Calvinists changing the gospel it is a short summary of the movement but he speaks candidly and I think the church need much and I think the church much needs the clarity are you familiar with this pastor

01:47:30

Jeremy this book I do know that book and do you agree with Tony's assessment of it or you think it's too harsh or where are you coming from on it

01:47:40

I think that there's a danger in that book that the that that the that issue of the spectrum isn't perhaps fully acknowledged

01:47:50

I think he tends to paint everybody with the same brush

01:47:56

I don't think he makes the distinctions that he might between people who although they may to some extent sail under the same flag don't necessarily see eye to eye with one another so I'm not sure that that book is always as as reasonable or as fair as it might be while at the same time identifying some of the particular issues that I think are typical of many within the new

01:48:28

Calvinist movement and issues that very much need to be addressed so yeah

01:48:33

I wouldn't I would by no means dismiss it altogether but I think there are points and you know

01:48:41

I'm not trying to be the guy who comes down hard on the fence that's a very uncomfortable thing to do under any circumstances and I'm not trying to nuance everything out of existence but I think we have to be very careful that we take each man in each case on its own merits and we don't make swinging judgments and you know there are there are faults on on both the the side of the the the offender the the attackers and the defenders in making broad brush statements but I think sometimes need to be more carefully addressed well

01:49:21

Tony offers this website for information on that book by dr.

01:49:28

ES Williams and it's newcalvinist .com if anybody wants to research it yourself newcalvinist .com

01:49:35

we thank Tony for participating in the program one of the things that I have touched on this earlier in the interview one of the things that I find troublesome about anything within the reformed faith or movement that makes it more difficult than it need to be to share the doctrines of grace with Christians who are adamantly opposed to reform theology you know the the the

01:50:14

Bible and the gospel are offensive enough to the lost without adding our own offensiveness unnecessarily and the doctrines of sovereign grace which a more specific declaration of the gospel highlighting man's depravity and his lowliness and inability and wickedness and utter and total depravity and exalting the majesty and sovereignty of God is even more offensive not only to the the common lost man but it's even offensive to our own brothers in Christ very often who are

01:50:56

Arminian or who would just care to call themselves Christians without giving themselves a label of any kind but when things occur when movements rise up within our own ranks that necessitate or require that we add further explanations to define ourselves it's just another annoying thing because we have all been broad -brushed by some of these odd movements that have raised up or have risen up amongst us if you follow what

01:51:30

I'm saying if you could comment on if you understand my my train of thought there if you could comment with your own thoughts well

01:51:41

I have had beloved friends very close friends and brothers in Christ as long as I've been a

01:51:53

Christian since the mid -1980s when I officially left

01:51:59

Roman Catholicism and embrace the doctrines of sovereign grace and was baptized in a

01:52:04

Baptist Church and so on which thankfully was a reformed Baptist Church that God providentially placed me in in the initial stage of my new walk in Christ but I've always had friends especially when

01:52:19

I got involved with Christian radio because of there's such a wide spectrum of believers in that media that you know that range from being tolerant of my

01:52:36

Calvinism to being vehemently opposed while still embracing me as a brother and friend and sometimes some of these things that rise up within reformed circles like the flaunting of alcohol or the flaunting of liberty to drink alcohol perhaps an overuse of worldly music in especially in regard to worship services like for instance

01:53:07

I am not immediately offended by rap Christian rap music as long as the the way that the the person rapping carries himself he's not mimicking the arrogant proud greedy misogynistic vulgar personality of the secular rap artists but even the best of rap artists

01:53:35

I wouldn't want them doing it in a worship service but but that just that kind of a thing that that just it gives another reason an unnecessary reason for our fundamentalist friends to or even obviously there are anti Calvinists who are on the opposite end of the spectrum from fundamentalism as well you know you have the more neo -evangelical a warm and fuzzy type of Christians as well who would reject what we have to say but some of the things that we add on to our proclamation of the gospel some of the things that have risen up amongst us make it just more confusing and a harder challenge that we face yeah

01:54:17

I think I think that again is is where what we are as biblical biblical local church men and women is so helpful to us the reason why

01:54:32

I started looking at this issue many years ago was because I needed to in terms of my own walk with God some of the friends that I had some of the people that I was seeking to care for as a pastor these were issues and questions that needed to be addressed and as I began to look at them and as I began to talk with various people from time to time

01:54:57

I was asked my opinion I was asked for it publicly some of the thinking I did was out loud a lot of the discussion was was online initially but to be perfectly honest

01:55:08

Chris you know I've I've done I've done my work in the nicest possible way not that I've done my work in the nicest possible way you understand but I I've made my assessment

01:55:21

I've reached certain conclusions I know what I think and where I stand and now my responsibilities to get on with life where the

01:55:29

Lord has put me and that actually helps me in answering some of these big questions yes

01:55:36

I may have a responsibility to people outside of my immediate sphere but my primary responsibility is to that the church family where I serve as theirs is to me to particular friends and relationships that already exist

01:55:53

I I'm not called to be a watchman to the whole world in that sense and I think

01:56:03

I think that that's one of the dangers of these kinds of movements in this kind of discussion is everybody's assumed to have a dog in everybody else's fight now if you have brothers and sisters in Christ with whom you may disagree vehemently or they with you but they are those who trust sincerely in the

01:56:26

Lord they're seeking to walk in holiness they're trying to worship him in spirit and truth that that's the sphere where you can have these discussions and you can have these engagements as robustly as you as you need to and and your alliances and allegiances your cooperation and communion and connection with brothers and sisters in Christ is in large measure dictated by those those realities right there where you are so yes it's

01:56:57

I think if we properly limit ourselves to the real relationships and the the immediate circle of influence and activity that the

01:57:06

Lord has given us to do to be honest we'd save a lot of energy and a lot of time instead of shooting at people who are a long way away and don't always have a great deal to do with our with our immediate life you know if we have to deal with these if they're having an impact on us or our friends or church members or whatever it may be

01:57:27

I think that's important but a lot of these relationships that you and I are just talking about now the scale on which we answer those questions the principles are the same the scale in which we answer those questions

01:57:42

I think is it's a lot smaller a lot more immediate a lot earthier and I think that's a help to us

01:57:49

I don't know if that answers your question yes it does and but by the way I've failed to ask you this and I was going to ask you at the very beginning because I think it is relevant to our discussion how old are you that's a good one

01:58:14

I've never heard that before I just thought it was applicable because we're talking about New Calvinism and it seems to be more of a draw to younger

01:58:22

Christians guys yeah why are you pointing the finger you're part of a gang whether or not that's true or not but I'm yeah

01:58:35

I'm right in the mix I'm part of those generations that seem to have been involved in and carried along by this but that's why

01:58:46

I had to again speaking personally when my peers started saying you know let's let's go with this and you come along with us

01:58:55

I had to stop and say why on what basis what am I being encouraged to join here that was part of the the impetus that first required that I look into this more carefully and we're out of time and I want to make sure that I give your website again for Maiden Bower Baptist Church in Crawley England in the

01:59:15

West Sussex area it's M A B A C H org M as in Michael a

01:59:22

B as in boy a CH org and if anybody wants to get the New Calvinism book

01:59:28

New Calvinism considered go to EP books org EP for evangelical press books org was my honor and privilege to interview you today

01:59:37

Jeremy and I look forward to your return and I hope everybody listening always remembers for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater