November 17, 2016 Show with Jeremy Walker on “The New Calvinism Considered: A Personal & Pastoral Assessment”

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Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania and the rest of humanity who are living on the

planet earth.

Listening via live streaming.

This is Chris Arns and your host of iron sharpens iron wishing you all a happy Thursday on

the 17th day of November 2016.

I'm so delighted to have as a guest for the very first time on iron sharpens iron today

Pastor Jeremy Walker who is pastor of Maiden Bower Baptist Church of Crawley

in West Sussex England.

He's calling all the way from the UK today and our connection is crystal clear and I'm thanking

God for that.

He's also an author and a blogger at Reformation 21 and the Wanderer

today.

We're discussing one of his books The new Calvinism considered a personal and

pastoral assessment.

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to iron sharpens iron pastor Jeremy Walker.

Thank you, Chris.

It's a pleasure to be with you.

And before I even go into our main topic at hand I'd like to know something about you.

What was the religion of your childhood if any and what?

Circumstances did the Lord use sovereignly to draw you to himself and save you?

Well, I was father is my parents

and I kicked against

the early teens didn't

they?

Grossly outwardly, but Although I knew that there was a God

and that that God was

became quite

Negative but

there was only one way to be saved and that that was a way that would bring glory to God

or despair and

bring me to and

from that point on.

Although there was still

a point there somewhere in my my mid to late teens.

And when did you realize that you were receiving the call from God to be a pastor

right by side with a.

Growing measure of assurance.

Thirsty and.

My baby Warfield.

And life.

And there is a sermon in there I.

Life of a believer and his mercy

was kind enough to make somewhat plain as I was reading that chapter that the

The changes that were taking place in me.

Small though, they might have been in themselves simply could not have

been as with

that.

Maybe that

you've God toward me.

What is my what is my reasonable service in response?

I don't know the answer to that won't be the same for every person but I reached a point where I felt

that I could not avoid asking but for me and.

The.

Religion of your upbringing.

You said that your your father is a pastor and you were raised in the Christian home war.

Were you raised in a theologically Calvinistic home.

The theology that you currently embrace?

Yes, I was.

Yes I've even raised in a Baptist pastor.

Yes, I would agree with you being one myself.

Well, tell us something more about Maiden Bower Baptist Church of Crawley and West Sussex, England.

Sure.

Well, Crawley is what's called a new town.

That is it.

It came to life as a now has.

I think 5 ,000 people may be living there and it's

exactly halfway between the

Domain itself.

Come back in the days of the horse drunk.

The.

The town is right next to Gatwick Airport if anybody's ever flown into or passed through Gatwick Airport.

They've been about 10 minutes outside of the town itself and the town is composed of neighborhoods

one of which one of the more recent of Whitney southeast of the town and.

That's where

the membership is.

Congregations large congregations.

I think that depends on where you are and what measure you're using.

But has become

that it is kingdom.

I'll praise

God for that and.

For those of you who either live in the UK or want to visit the UK

the website for Maiden Bower Baptist Church is M a B as in boy a

CH dot o RG.

That's M as in Maiden Bower a B as in boy a

CH dot o RG and we hope that You look up that information and

visit there if you are ever providentially in Southern England in the West Sussex

area.

Yes, and I hope that you and my current pastor David Campbell who is

going to be Accepting or has accepted that new call to North Preston I know that he's on the

opposite side of the country that you are on but I hope that the Lord Providentially brings about many opportunities for

the two of you to share fellowship as well.

When when David returns to the UK actually this Coming Monday, God willing.

Yeah, well great and you already had some kind of a relationship with him.

Did you not?

Absolutely.

Yes, we we know each other little over phone calls and Skype calls and things.

Great.

Well, we are discussing today a Controversial issue the New Calvinism considered

a personal and pastoral assessment.

This is a controversial issue because you have people who share The

same tenets of the faith the same theology and very often the same confession of faith.

At odds with each other over certain aspects of this phenomenon.

You have some that are aggressively involved in New Calvinism.

You have those that are very critical of it.

You have those that are on the fence.

You have those that are really not even sure what exactly that means but before we even go into the

subject at hand of New Calvinism as I've mentioned before on this program.

We have new listeners that join the audience of iron sharpens iron nearly

every week.

Some of which are not even Christian.

We do have Muslim listeners and we have listeners of other religions.

We have Roman Catholic listeners and others.

So if you could give a summary or a brief

description of what Calvinism is historic Calvinism you might might want to call it the old

Calvinism.

But before we even go into the New Calvinism, it's probably good to define what Calvinism is in its summary form.

Sure, I would contend is

Essentially a nickname for the God.

I know that that would be dispute my brothers and sisters.

A man by the name of John

Frenchman but

spent the bulk

of his

life a teacher and he

was a man who Worked his

way through understand how

together

contributions to Theology proper which

is significant in his understanding of the

other son and spirit.

You also

had salvation

Essentially odd on the throne in an absolute sense in all

matters.

We're like

forgets from

darkness

into light

out of

death

into life

as Christ.

And then having set his love upon us in that way from before the foundation of the world most.

Amen, and I have often summarized it in a sentence

Calvinistic soteriology or the Calvinistic understanding of salvation or the reformed

Understanding is that God alone saves sinners because sinners cannot

even help save themselves.

Absolutely, that's the nub of the statement of salvation I would say.

Yes, and the most if not all Armenians.

Would perhaps say what are they talking about?

We believe that God deserves a hundred percent of the praise honor glory and credit for our salvation.

But they're really not being consistent.

When they say that are they because they believe that a dead sinner before the Holy Spirit

regenerates that person Before Christ gives that person a new heart.

They believe that they're dead lifeless soul.

Which of course they don't believe is quite dead and lifeless.

They believe it's very sick but they believe out of that soul that sin -cursed

soul they can summon up somehow a Faith that pleases God enough

to grant them salvation.

So therefore even that faith they credit to themselves were as according to reform theology

as Paul said to the church of at Ephesus.

Even the faith that we possess as Christians is a gift from God, correct?

And there are there's a there's

a range even within that.

Yeah, I think it is.

It is fundamentally

to my faith in that sense would certainly pray to God to

save sinners.

And yeah,

there's the

limitation you could

argue that both

Armenians

by making Christ's salvation some bit

intense.

Amen, just as we use the term limited atonement we

are referring only to the scope for of which that atonement is intended and

We believe that the power of that atonement is Limitless that is unlimited

power because everyone for whom that atonement was made Will be

atoned for will be redeemed.

Am I right?

Yes, and that's rooted in the person who dies for them because you have a Sacrifice that is made

by the incarnate

value.

That secure salvation in that sense.

There's no there's no limit in Christ himself.

He saves all upon whom God has said his love.

Amen, because even the Arminian believes there is a limited aspect to the atonement because

Unless they are full -blown Universalists who believe everyone will be in heaven perhaps even the devil

they believe that the Atonement was limited to those who offer

faith to Christ.

So Even they have a limited atonement and in fact as Charles

Spurgeon had said Charles Spurgeon who was a full -blown Thoroughgoing five -point

Calvinist of the 19th century the Prince of Preachers who is beloved of Christians

spanning the theological spectrum He said that it is the

Arminians who really limit the atonement because they limit its power.

It is not saving everyone For whom it is intended.

In fact, it is saving a minority of those for whom it is intended.

Yes, yeah, I mean, you know if Christ died for all the sins of all men, then all

must be saved and That's not taught in the scriptures and neither is it

seen in of all men and that's clearly not the

case.

But if Christ died for and they truly are saved they must

be now if we were to list.

Prominent figures from history who would be in this category of historic Calvinism if you want

to call it old Calvinism.

This would be John Calvin.

Obviously, it would be Charles Spurgeon who we have just mentioned.

It would be John Bunyan the author of pilgrims progress and other works.

George Whitfield the great revival preacher.

We could go on and on even through Jonathan Edwards and

To our current day.

We have dr. RC Sproul a very well -known Calvinist dr. John MacArthur who is

a dispensationalist Calvinist and so on but now we're getting

into The area where I'd like you to define what is the new Calvinism because I think

that there may be even Different ways of interpreting that

phrase that that people have Used to identify what that is.

There seems to be some level of disagreement or misunderstanding about what new Calvinism.

What new Calvinism is and who would fall under the umbrella of that title, but if you could give in your understanding

What is new Calvinism?

Well, I hope you'll you'll allow me to to work a little from the book in this case.

Oh, of course, let me talk about the

new Calvin of salvation.

Calvinism I think you could contend if you like

is is much larger than simply the doctrine of salvation.

It has to do with that in his majesty.

Where a God is

a creator of all things

called doctrines of grace.

Those realities of a God who

seeks and

saves sin of salvation.

Generally speaking they are

going to be.

That is they would so

you're zeroing on

that.

It's heyday up later because I think that in some sense

is the way you may have passed

most of them.

What would now.

Men with a measure of prominence a measure of

real popular.

So you'd be talking about people like Kevin

de Young and.

And on the other side of the spectrum James McDonald

scribe in the same way.

But these are the kinds of names that would would be beat and some of

those really come ten years ago.

But called young before

big names together

organizations

like the 29 coming together

working together.

Working together with others who are working together.

So you've got these overlaps developing.

Usually again around

when I wrote the book out of

date and what

was.

Consolidating a few years ago when I wrote the book as in some sense is now changed.

Moved on those

would be some of the

thing primarily been in a modern

American movement and its lifespan.

The recognizable movement you could probably argue the last 10 to 15 years.

But in terms of some of the and the seminal figures you're probably

going back to the mid 1980s and the emergence of a man like John Piper and

desiring God as a.

What was interesting that you? identified two folks that You would consider a

part of the new Calvinism that I actually Just cited as

being contemporary Calvinists who live today who seem to uphold the

historic teachings of the faith.

One man that you and I both uphold very highly as a modern -day figure

dr. Joel Beakey.

Would you consider him a new Calvinist because he has been on the same panel with dr R.

C. Sproul and has cooperated with him in literature and so on.

So, how would you view the difference between those two men?

I think the important thing to recognize is that not because of the nature of this

System the nature of the there are people

whose new

Calvinists either be

quite content to be know when I mentioned people.

What you've got there is a man is actually issues.

And yet there are people within that movement with

him that the new Calvin

is not a

scene can be

quite far apart from one Another so some of them would be very happy in conversation with a

man like RC Sproul Who I believe has spoken as has

Kafa, but at the same time there are

other only welcome

outmoded and out of touch.

So When we're talking about Names you have to work

out sort of where

they fit this

milieu in this and we're going to our first.

Break right now if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own for Jeremy Walker.

About the new Calvinism considered.

Whether you agree with what he's saying.

Whether you disagree.

Whether you just don't know.

We would love to hear from you and please give us at least your first name city and state and country of residence

if you live outside the USA and We understand that there are certain circumstances that would compel you to remain

anonymous if you're critiquing Your own church or someone else's church.

We don't want you to necessarily identify yourself or them by name.

But what have you if you can though?

We would appreciate knowing your first name city and state and country of residence.

Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back with Jeremy Walker.

I'm James White of Alpha Omega Ministries.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnz.

And if you just tuned us in our guest today for the full two hours is Jeremy Walker we are discussing his book the

new Calvinism.

Considered a personal and pastoral assessment, I just wanted to read a couple of

endorsements for this book.

Phil Johnson executive director at grace to you, which is the Ministry of

John MacArthur who we mentioned earlier.

The new Calvinism is a nebulous movement still in flux not an easy subject for analysis and

critique.

Is this a resurgence of biblical and Calvinist conviction or the latest evangelical fad?

Jeremy Walker makes a thoughtful instructive even -handed assessment of the most visible and

influential streams of the new Calvinism.

He acknowledges Encouraging and beneficial aspects of the movement, but also identifies and

carefully critiques several troubling tendencies.

The result is a perspective and Profitable appraisal of a complex sometimes

confusing trend among young evangelicals and a clear signpost Pointing the right

way ahead For a movement at the crossroads and that was Phil Johnson as I mentioned.

Carl Truman who's also been a guest on this program Professor of historical theology and church history

at Westminster Theological Seminary in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Says as the young restless and

reformed movements appear to be slowly, but surely running its course the big question is

what has it provided that is of lasting value and where has it fallen short of expectations and

Indeed of biblical orthodoxy.

This short booklet by Jeremy Walker seeks to address these questions in a manner that is both irenic

and critical a very useful contribution to the literature on the subject.

And Sam Waldron who's a friend of mine and been on this guest in this program a number of

times.

Dr. Sam Waldron academic dean of the Midwest Center for Theological Studies.

And I think that they have changed that name to Covenant Baptist Seminary if I'm not mistaken.

He says if you are not sure what you think of the new Calvinism.

You need to read this book if you have friends struggling with it.

You need to give them this book if you are being reproached for not embracing it use the arguments and

cautions of this book to defend yourself.

If you are in danger of rejecting the whole of New Calvinism root and branch you need to.

You need the care of this book to restrain you.

My prayer is that God will give this little book great usefulness.

So this is quite a number of very impressive endorsements by some very honorable men of

God and we do have a listener in

Slovenia.

Joe.

Who Has asked the question that regarding your book and I have to enlarge the print

on Joe's question because it's very small Typeface that he has come across on his email.

Let's see here.

Please ask brother Walker to help me understand if what I've been reading about the new Calvinist is an

accurate summary of the main issues.

It seems like there are issues of doctrinal errors Which are divergent from historical

Calvinism such as antinomian ism worldliness

Contemporary and aberrant worship forms and emergent and missional church

Spirituality errors, is this an accurate summary?

Could you please elaborate?

That's Joe in Slovenia.

That's that's a very good question a very pointed question.

My I would say to Joe

Men and women and good men and women has

raised and would be horrified by them.

One of the challenges of the new cut a number

of indeed

challenges that I and say.

Everybody you would

have to ask

are they in.

If so, to what extent.

So yes.

Well, thank you Joe in

Slovenia and thank you for providing an address here in the United States for your daughter.

Because that's where we're going to be mailing a free copy of a book that you've just won titled the new

Calvinism considered a personal and pastoral assessment by our guest Jeremy Walker.

And We thank evangelical press for providing These free copies of

this book and we also thank Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service for shipping this book out to you.

That's C V BBS calm and we thank Todd and Patty Jennings for their

generosity.

And always shipping out the listeners in our audience their free Bibles books

CDs DVDs and other items that they have won by submitting questions to

our guests.

So thanks a lot for submitting that question Joe in Slovenia.

And We have a question from

Stephanie in Greensboro, North Carolina.

Who says are there some dangers in the new Calvinism and why are so many of the younger preachers

attracted to it.

That's another very good question.

Yes, I believe that there are.

Yes, it is.

Yes, definitely.

I thank you for your question.

Stephanie.

I think if you look at the movement as a whole, I Think that it

does have many of to

be a Christ or they they make

much of the grace of God in Christ.

I think that it is in many senses.

It's robustly Complementarian, although that's of its own.

It's it's a very inventive and

In some ways an aggressive and it's

a preaching movement.

At its best it focuses on the declaration of the Word of God and that's where the best of it

I think if you put all of those things together the

energy the engagement.

The at its best

to make crimes why it is so

attractive to many younger preachers.

Now it markets its development if you like

of the earth,

but if you've got someone who is to

use that language young and restless wants to do something and who

perhaps feel

to get

stuck Calvinism would in some way

and we'd be happy to help you and we'd Be

happy to have you and we'd be happy to have you serve to

younger ministers.

Yeah, there are some some dangers that I perceive only

identify in one of the chapters in the big commercialism

and it's life

Carelessness, I think there's a

lack of awareness.

I think there is in holiness.

I would go back to what Joe was saying of antinomian ism

the bedfellows that

there are within the new Calvinism and outside it think

there's a Over the

by by many new Calvinist.

It is largely a

continuationist

now you

mentioned

one thing that may have gone over the heads of.

Some of our listeners as a positive attribute that seems to be typical

amongst the new Calvinist the complementarian understanding of the

genders in the body of Christ.

That means that although men and women are equal in the sight of God

Man is not superior to woman.

There are different gender roles in the church in the home where the man has

headship.

Would I be correct.

It's at that description of complementarianism.

Yeah, but of course of my understanding.

Yes, and this as you said has been upheld and

Quite firmly upheld by many if not most in this new Calvinism from what you said

earlier.

Correct, but you said you said there was also some kind of a negative Response to

that in some regard if you could explain further on that.

There's a danger Primarily

written error by getting as far away from

it as possible is therefore true.

There's been a cultural assault on those distinctive gender roles and and the

Relationships that therefore spring out of them have led to some sizing

or going beyond what God says with regard to masculinity and femininity.

So that in some cases there has been odd

to men that there's some extent a

turned

into a Hyped up

time.

There are there is some

of my particular concerns and

more recently Chris

the man the meekly in marriage and

Whether or not in any way

in the Godhead we

make the creature.

The focus and the starting point of our theology will get

off beam from man rather than down to man

from God.

If you're probably speaking of the current controversy Regarding the Trinity that's swirling

around.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah, we have touched on that a bit and perhaps we will continue to do programs with

both sides represented on that.

But now as far as the you mentioned something about the Something that was

dangerous Regarding the sexuality of the movement.

What exactly were you referring to in that regard?

Sure, I'm some of those

circles and it became quite childish in some respects there were

even smutty at points an unhealthy focus on sex and.

Sexuality in the marriage.

In the marriage bed though.

I'm assuming.

In the marriage bed confined to the marriage bed.

You're you're talking.

I mean, yeah.

Well, yes, the discussion would have presumed that this was focused on the marriage bed.

But I think that discussion it could become so so specific.

Created problems put ideas into it could put ideas into your

mind that you've never had there before and which for some people at least only

Unhealthy one of the

the ongoing the great means by which Satan seeks to bring down

Ministers of the gospel and money would be

sex.

And there now.

By no means suggesting that it but I think it underlines how

they wanted to deal with these kinds of topics.

And I'm assuming some of the machismo aspect would be a Hyper sense a

hyper patriarchal ism.

Is that what we were referring to?

Yeah, I think I think that can come into it.

Certainly in some senses in some circles, it would be very much

that that hyper patriarchal ism with the.

The emphasis on the father

as a

would be

even a

Trample upon to strange

beast it pulls in various directions.

Well, by the way, Stephanie you have also won a free copy of the new Calvinism considered a personal and

pastoral assessment By Jeremy Walker, so if you make sure we have your mailing address, we'll have Cumberland

Valley Bible Book Service Cv bbs .com ship that out to you and we

thank them for doing that and we also thank once again, evangelical press for providing us with the free

copies of this book.

And We do have another listener

we have John in Peoria, Illinois.

Who says do you think that the new Calvinism moves movement as a whole?

Has had a negative impact on traditional reformed churches.

A fantastic question from John.

Instances.

Look at

ourselves again.

Well notice

again tying in

with Stephanie's question One of our

eager younger men and women.

Is that across the board you've got?

Delighted.

Captured and enraptured by the wonders of God's grace in Christ.

Always perhaps being a I

would hope that it is done.

Like that the nine marks guys with their their emphasis on healthy

aspects.

Yes.

I think there have

perhaps have undermined What I would have considered

fundamentally healthy in their doctrine.

I think there are areas,

but I don't

agree

with

there are

areas where those

things and

very vocals.

Yes.

And we have to let our guests call us back in a different line.

So we're going to a station break right now.

If you'd like to join us as well on the air our email address is Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back with Jeremy Walker and more of the new Calvinism considered right after these

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen.

If you just tuned us in our guest today for the full two hours with one hour to go is Jeremy

Walker.

He is discussing his one of his books the New Calvinism considered a personal and

pastoral assessment.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own.

Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com and there are a

couple of you that have sent in questions.

With your name, but not your city and state or country.

So if you could just send us also your place of residence.

That would be helpful.

It appears that you're not requesting to be anonymous.

So we would like to have your city the state and country of residence because we'd like to have an idea of

the scope of where our listeners are contacting us from.

And Chris Out there who has sent in a very good question.

If you could let us know your city state and country of residence as soon as possible

and we'll read your question.

And the.

Email address again is Chris Arnzen At gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

And.

Our friend Chris has let us know where he's from Ronellis Iowa and I'm

sorry or Runnels, Iowa.

Sorry if I'm mispronouncing that Chris, but he asks, can you ask Jeremy?

What are some of the negative or Detrimental contributions of the new Calvinist

movement.

Well, he's already started to list some if you could include some more Jeremy.

Your

situation some of these concerns that I would have.

I think the pragmatism and the commercialism that I mentioned.

That's really a market approach to where there's an

appetite I

think for counting

on two numbers

and more important than anything else.

And so you you would end up at model to church.

You just put together the team that you need you're trying to build the numbers.

You just want to get there the bandwagon rolling the whole

Program becomes a mechanical process.

To to simply make thing get

big enough to be noticeable

with mega churches or multi

campus along with that.

Buying into the way that the world Does things all

to get attention?

I think that would be one of the particular problems that I would identify and

then there can

be a Failure to reckon here

that you can pretty much adapt anything that the world has got that you can draw it

and just adapt it.

That it's essentially neutral and all you need to do is to and to

make it work so I think that

dualization is very dangerous as to

take Paul's dictum that he became all things

use that statement as if it is a Principle for that Paul

used it a statement that he was

willing as a Christian for the sake of the gospel I

think is is very dangerous.

You'll see that in the fact that a lot of

these clever At least by some standards to

occur.

These men have traveled away from

that.

I think is is very dangerous.

The holiness issue.

I think there's a Antinomianism in some of the new

Calvinism big names

are this of God that would be far from the truth.

But I think there is an

undermining of

the to

holiness.

And and again, they've been discussions within the movement on this and they've been some good voices.

Making things very very the continuation

ism.

This is troubling that

suspended.

Let's let's not talk about our differences on the Holy Spirit.

They come down even to the very matter of

the Sun that

would probably deeply about.

Parts of that new Calvinist spectrum and obviously as you've already Mentioned there is a

wide spectrum within the new Calvinism because if you were to put John MacArthur in

that category He obviously had a strange fire conference.

That was very clearly in opposition to.

The.

Continuationist understanding of the sign gifts and so on.

Absolutely, you know, I would say even in the last couple of years now whether or not that

say the trajectory

as far as I know.

Is very friendly with some of the the good men who would probably align themselves

as new Calvinist.

But if you look at some of the notes that John MacArthur struck in the last couple of years

some of the things as the strange

fire car again.

This is the danger with a shift as this one is.

I think you'd have to say now that John John MacArthur's best as he ever was.

Well, you had Phil Johnson write a very nice endorsement for your book and he's obviously Dr.

MacArthur's executive director.

Yeah.

Now thinking what what's he doing tiring my man with that brush?

I Think if John MacArthur chooses to

go Together for the gospel to preach the good news about Jesus Christ

would share many of his convictions on many of these things.

Then that's that's up to him.

I mean, I'm not I'm time.

I think when you're.

You know some of the some of the critiques he's made I've been extremely telling and

if anything, I think they've stirred up

motley and.

I.

Still am one of those people that are on the fence about this movement.

I have had guests who are on opposing sides of this issue on my program.

But I do share some apprehensions.

Would you say that one of the things that seems to be all too prevalent

and You can't really just isolate this to New Calvinism because even some very

old Calvinists have done this.

But there seems to be a Flaunting of Christian liberty in

regard to the imbibing of alcohol a rubbing in your face

the liberty to drink without any apparent concern.

For not only those who have had problems even like myself.

I have had some unfortunately horrible sinful

episodes in my life where addiction to alcohol was a Unfortunate blemish

on my reputation and thankfully have been delivered from that and restored

Fully to the church and so on.

But also it seems an unnecessary thing to do when you're trying to share

the doctrines of grace with our fundamentalist brethren who You know

may be anti -calvinist in regard to.

Soteriology.

When you're when you're loading this unnecessary baggage on the reputation of Calvinism.

It just makes it a harder hill to climb if you follow what I'm saying, but if you could comment on that I.

Personally, I believe that the I think

that is a matter of Christian liberty, but I

think you're right to say that there can be a liberty

Apostle speaks, but I

think it's a general principality is never a matter of

getting as close as you can to the edge Hoping that you don't fall over.

The Christians freedom is the freedom of

God to a life of godliness the personally

Excuse to almost to get away with as much

as poignantly dangerous

ungracious to somebody.

Then I think it is Vitally important that even if we

consider that our freedom something which are

not just in the matter of alcohol consumption

considers one's own Appreciate

that might be either dangerous to

others.

I think there can be something that is is profoundly.

But that also cuts both ways.

Yeah.

You mentioned fundamentalism.

Oh, yes, definitely.

But it appears that some of our reformed brethren want to add an S and make

the acronym for tulip tulips and the s standing for scotch.

Because they they said if anybody would crash enough to make that suggestion.

Quite enough.

And.

We do have Jeff, oh by the way, Chris.

Who.

Contacted us earlier from Runnels, Iowa.

Since you're a first -time questioner. You're not only going to win or you not only already

have won a free copy of the New Calvinism considered by Jeremy Walker.

You're also getting a free New American Standard Bible on top of that since you are a first

-time Questioner on the program.

This is a beautiful edition of the NASB.

It has an embossed cross on the cover.

It's a size that is not too small so you can hardly read the print and it's not too big that

it's Cumbersome to carry around with you.

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Bible and this is compliments of the publishers of the NASB and it will be shipped to you again by our friends at

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being a first -time questioner today on iron sharpens iron.

Chris we have Jeff from Clinton Township, Michigan.

Who says just having turned 60 I want to make sure I'm not being unreasonable.

I Fled the world of drugs alcohol and carnal living directly after having been

saved.

I'm surprised at how some at my church enjoy cussing whiskey cigars and tattoos

I was told if it's not condemned in the Bible.

I shouldn't be critical of it.

It's my opinion that personal piety and a desire for holiness seems to have been

Replaced and that was Jeff and Clinton Township.

Well, I think that you Jeremy gave a balanced answer to that already that you believe that

there are things that are within the liberty of a Christian to partake in them and enjoy them

with moderation, but at the same time it's dangerous to flaunt them and Be very

irresponsible with them.

Yeah, and Jeff.

Jeff's question puts together a very interesting mix of issues there.

Could you can you read out the fact that you said four things there was cussing?

What were the other three things?

Let's see.

He says.

I'm surprised at how some at my church enjoy cussing whiskey cigars

and tattoos.

Okay, cussing whiskey cigars.

Tattoos that there may be.

Conditions

there are also obviously

cussing.

You wouldn't consider that an option for Christians.

Let's say somebody comes in To the church and they're covered in tattoos

and they get converted.

Yeah, they may know they may choose

never to get another tattoo.

Yes,

certainly.

I think something like that the the issue of I don't think there's

any space Allowed for that.

There's no Indulgence in that that is provided for by the Word of God

now.

There's some strong and forceful language in the Word of God.

That's on the one hand to put those things

categories on.

The other I think what is important is that for many people in our culture?

Not everybody perhaps.

But if those things go together if you saw somebody who was covered in tattoos.

Swinging a bottle of scotch smoking a big old stogie and With the

foulest of mouths

you had all those things together in that way.

Then you'd probably be entitled to draw certain conclusions about whether or not there's

any I think there is a question here.

Then it looks an awful it provides for then

that with the world that is enmity with God now.

Individually there may be a question about some of if that's the

package and that's considered to be a declaration.

Carelessly a combination of

those then yes, I think that raises serious questions about what holiness really look.

Well Jeff and Clinton Township.

You've also won a free copy of the new Calvinism considered by Jeremy Walker.

Please make sure that you provide your mailing address for us.

We have Tony in Rock Hill, South Carolina and

Tony says I am a bit taken back a back that you do not want to mention names as

in some cases It is very much necessary to warn God's people about some of the folks in this movement.

I was exposed to the theology of Tim Keller and a church plant and was very very troubled by what I heard there.

I have since been very busy warning others about this very prominent teacher Within

reform circles, and I would like to know if mr. Walker is familiar with dr. Keller and if so

Would he share his opinion now?

Obviously, I guess Tony must have tuned in late because you did met name names, so I'm not sure why she's

making that claim.

And you actually mentioned dr. Keller, but if you could perhaps elaborate.

One of the inside of the names you mentioned some

people are horrified that you don't mention more names and errors

with anybody else each of these issues.

Would you have questions or concerns?

There are points in danger of

contextualizing To what I think's an unnecessary.

There are emphasis.

I've identified these

in in certain

extended book

revolution.

Which I believe is the idea

that I'm not sure

you can identify In the line of hominid

development or whatever that would involve and say that

just both with regard to the creation of the world and then yeah

with someone like Tim Keller and

questions about some of the the the doctrines

facies that the life

of the chip and in our.

Yeah, so thank you very much for that.

I think very thorough answer to Tony's question and

Sometimes I Do not mention names on the program because I don't know enough about

this person To make sure that I'm not slandering someone But

I I think I can agree with everything that has been said.

I know that Tim Keller is greatly loved by a lot of people who are Very good friends of

mine and people I respect and others that I know have very serious concerns about the

direction That he is going or the direct or the or the place where he

already is.

Especially in regard to things like theistic evolution and so on.

So I think if I can as well, I think one of

the things

that's important here character assassinations

the problem is that

sufferings and issues

with two

or three different people

and I asked them to give me a.

A.

Tracy if you will a sort of a summary.

What do

you what do you yourself believe?

And the answer in two two or three cast of names.

I kind of believe what all those people believe.

And I said well, the problem is that they don't all believe the same things.

Baptists some of them are covenant list some of them

a new covenant teachers.

You do get this this difficulty where people are

basically aligning themselves with a man or men.

We mustn't

be afraid to name names.

We mustn't be afraid to raise those issues and gotta

be as you said, we must be scrupulously fair where we can be.

Where that is not legitimately done and in not simply Smashing people

for the sake of smashing them.

It's got to be done righteously and reasonably.

I believe if we're to honor honor a just and righteous God now.

I have the book in my possession, but I just purchased it recently and have not yet read it.

But I was wondering if you are familiar with the book that was edited by Ian

Campbell.

Engaging with Keller thinking through the theology of an influential evangelical I.

Know it and it's one of the books.

I was referring to when I said I've Kim Keller.

I've reviewed that book about him Keller as well.

Yes, I know it.

Oh.

So do you recommend it?

Do you agree with the conclusions of the author?

The author is plural.

I.

Think has many good things in it.

I do not there are some chapters that are

magnificent But that I think are

very in

hermeneutical approach.

But there are other chapters that I also think are weaker

Persuaded that they addressed way in

some cases I think maybe he might be allowed to get away with a few things or in others.

I think the critique I

think it's a

possibly one or two are

generally very balanced and careful and Properly gracious

in those raised many of the more

Kim Keller's public.

Yes, one of the things that I'd like to talk to pastor Keller about myself.

Some point that troubled me.

One of which is that during the holiday season you will very often see on television.

Whether it's National Geographic or the History Channel or when it one of the major television

networks that.

Have.

Religious programming during the holidays and I have seen dr. Keller on

programs that feature Atheists and agnostics who happened to be

very historically learned about the actual historic Jesus.

Who believed that he was a person who existed?

Such as Bart Ehrman and John Dominic Crossan.

But who are agnostic nonetheless, and they will have these men grouped together with Tim Keller

discussing things about you know the ancient church and

about Judaism and about the the birth of Christ and Some historical facts about

that.

And yet they will never separate.

The.

The backgrounds or identities of these individuals for the audience's benefit.

And for instance, you know, they won't say this is conservative evangelical, dr. Kim Tim Keller's

Opinion and this is agnostic Bart Ehrman's opinion.

They don't do that.

They just seem to link them all together as if they're all in the same team if you follow what I'm saying.

Yeah, well coming from this side of the pond.

I'm mercifully spared having to make any judgments on that one.

I don't even have to watch it.

Yeah, I think I think there's probably a from what you say Yes

that that's something that I'd imagine that someone

is as clever as as Tim Keller is intelligent as Tim Keller seems to be

I'd imagine that's something He's thought about and worked out.

But as you say if there's a danger there of

confusing by

involvement without Essentially

be damning error.

Yeah that I would understand why you would probably

seen it.

Make any further assessment.

And of course, there's also an interview that he was involved in that made the rounds on YouTube.

It was probably still there where he was asked about non -christians going to heaven.

And he basically concluded his comments by saying that you know from what the Bible teaches

Jesus Christ and faith in him is the only way.

But if there's a back door or a trap door.

That I don't know about.

Well, you know, I can't comment on that.

Well, he was actually offering false Hope.

I believe in that comment to those that reject Christ now in all fairness.

I I.

May be wrong in saying this, but I believe that he subsequently sought to clarify

that comment.

I don't know.

But yeah, I think damage was done and and and there's a significant concern there

but which then there really can be no equivocation.

Christ Jesus only truth the only life that no one comes to the father.

But by him that there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.

Those statements of the Exclusivity of Christ as the one in whom we find the

salvation of God need to be fiercely defended.

But graciously,.

I don't know but yeah, those are the kinds

in the minds of observers.

And we have to go to our final break right now and our email address if you'd like to join us on the air Is Chris

Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name city and state and country of residence if you live outside of the USA and

please only remain anonymous if absolutely necessary.

And We're gonna be right back with the conclusion of our interview with Jeremy Walker on

The New Calvinism, so don't go away.

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Thanks, James.

Make sure you greet me at the iron sharpens iron exhibit booth while you're there.

Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnz.

And if you just tuned us in our guest has been for the last 90 minutes and the next half hour to come

Jeremy Walker the author of the book Discussing the new Calvinism considered a

personal and pastoral assessment.

And we hope to have Jeremy on many more times in the future to address other books He has written and in

fact as soon as we get off the air with him in about 25 minutes I am going to schedule

an interview or two with him if his schedule Aligns up with mine because I have been really

enjoying this interview thoroughly.

If you'd like to join us on the air with some questions of your own before we run out of time.

Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

And by the way, I want to remind you that You just heard the voice of my friend.

Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega ministries a Theologically Reformed apologetics

ministry.

I've known dr. White for a Long time since 1995.

I've known dr. White and I've been working with him arranging Debates and speaking engagements and

well his daughter summer who when I first met her was a very very little girl Who just

couldn't get enough laughter by hearing me repeat the word coffee with my

New York accent see a w -f -e -e Coffee, and she used to have me

repeat that over and over again.

Well now she is a mother of two and she is quite an

Impressive young lady with a great knowledge of Scripture and has a

ministry to women that she calls Sheologians and she is not by

any stretch of the imagination of feminists at all.

In fact, one of the Things that she is trying to accomplish is to fight

against the Feminism that it seems to be creeping into the church In

places where we never thought that it would gain a foothold and So she's gonna be my guest tomorrow for the

very first time for the two hours on iron sharpens iron.

I'm looking forward to that very much so make sure you mark your calendars for tomorrow and

mark set your alarm clock or whatever else you have to do and listen to the program and

We do have Another listener who has a question for Jeremy Walker and apparently

he must have tuned in a little late too because you've already Mentioned one of these individuals.

But Tyler in Mastic Beach, Long Island, New York Asks are some of the proponents of the new

Calvinism Mark Driscoll and John Piper.

Well, you've already mentioned John Piper if you care to mention Mark Driscoll at all and expand on that.

So John Piper

certainly would be in the

view of

the of Jonathan Edwards and then Mark Driscoll and

a Mark Driscoll is an interesting case because like

Mark Driscoll is

that he came in from a.

Everybody was celebrating the fact that he was on what was called a good trajectory and defend.

There were things that he said that there were

obviously big problems as well.

But he became

the most prominent spokesman for the new Calvinism and that was probably to their detriment.

Because he followed on that project and sadly some of the men who would

welcome that

trajectory of mine

They remained rather.

I think that the

aberrations and the

through that particular part of the

quite where he's at now what he's doing on have

been one of the.

Well as you mentioned earlier and as I am repeating this is not a monolithic

group because if you have John MacArthur on the periphery of the movement and And

Mark Driscoll was at one time Certainly embedded in it and has gone further

Dr. MacArthur would not even agree to be a part of a conference that he that Mark Driscoll was speaking at so.

Dr. MacArthur was never shy of pointing out what he considered to be the very significant issues

With with Mark Driscoll.

Yes, and we have Lou in Sharpsburg, Georgia.

Who wants to inform us that he tried to bring up on YouTube? The

interview with Martin Bashir and Tim Keller but was unable to because it said it was removed due to

Copyright issues.

Well, thank you for that Lou in Sharpsburg, Georgia.

I want to really make sure before we run out of time.

That you have the floor for four or five minutes or more.

To really unburden your heart with what you most want etched in our listeners minds about

this issue before.

They leave this program today pastor Jeremy.

That's very kind.

Well, I don't want to Overburden anybody, but I think one of my my

really not everybody might feel

simply follow men that I think is

embrace of Men who guides

and they become become gurus and that the Berean spirit has been

utterly Surrendered

and remember

each case on

its merit.

We need to

anybody in a teacher to the the bar.

Then there are

sons that I have and

it's something

that a

man Overweight from from where where you might live

teacher and that has

had in many instances

Men and women who the

under shepherd to a

place who know them care for them

somebody

can't read those books and

that Christians if we are to be healthy

Represented for at the

key points and that that anchor of

a local church under the care of godly Undershepherds and in company with others of

God's perhaps

even

somebody said

yeah I want I want more of the good things that I've seen here

praise God for his goodness in using these

The under shepherds that Christ is a

poor

unworthy sinners like ourselves.

So root yourself in the local church and

That is that the healthiest and the happiest and ought to be the holiest place.

For you to pursue.

Well, praise God for that.

And our friend Tony in Rock Hill, South Carolina

has once again Sent an email and Tony says a great little book on

this movement is by dr Es Williams titled the new Calvinists

changing the gospel.

It is a short summary of the movement, but he speaks candidly and I think the church need much and

I think the church much needs the clarity.

Are you familiar with this?

Pastor Jeremy this book.

I do know that book and Do you agree with Tony's assessment of it or you think it's too harsh or

where are you coming from on it?

I think

I

don't think he makes the distinctions that he might between people

who although they may Don't

necessarily see eye to eye with one another that that book

might be while at the same time identifying some of the particular

Typical of many within the New Calvin it to be addressed.

I would by no means dismiss it altogether.

But I think There are points and you know, I'm not trying to be the guy who comes down hard on the fence.

That's a very uncomfortable thing to do under any circumstances.

And I'm not trying to nuance everything out of existence very careful that

We take each man in each case on its own merits and we don't make Swinging

judgments,

you

know, there are.

Well.

Tony offers this website for information on that book by dr Es

Williams and it's new Calvinist comm if anybody wants to research it yourself.

New Calvinist comm.

We thank Tony for participating in the program.

One of the things that.

And I've touched on this earlier in the interview.

One of the things that I find troublesome.

About anything within the Reformed faith or movement?

That.

Makes it more difficult than it need to be to share the doctrines of grace

with Christians Who are adamantly opposed to reform theology?

You know the the the Bible and the gospel are offensive enough

to the lost without adding our own offensiveness unnecessarily.

And the doctrines of sovereign grace which a more specific

declaration of the gospel Highlighting man's

depravity and his lowliness and inability and Wickedness and utter

and total depravity and exalting the majesty and sovereignty of God Is

even more offensive not only to the the common lost man.

But it's even offensive to our own brothers in Christ very often who are Arminian or

who would just care to call themselves Christians without giving themselves a label of any kind.

But when things occur When movements rise up within our own ranks.

That that necessitate or require that we add further Explanations to define

ourselves.

It's just another annoying thing you because we have all been broad -brushed by some of these

odd movements that have Raised up or have risen up amongst us.

If you follow what I'm saying.

And if you could comment on if you understand my my train of thought there if you could comment with your own thoughts.

Just give me a little clarity on that Chris.

What.

What is it that you're primarily concerned about?

Well, I have had beloved friends very close friends and brothers in

Christ as long as I've been a Christian since the mid 1980s when

I Officially left Roman Catholicism and embraced the doctrines of sovereign

grace and was baptized in a Baptist Church and so on Which thankfully was a reformed Baptist

Church that God providentially placed me in in the initial

stage of my new walk in Christ.

But I've always had friends especially when I got involved with Christian radio Because of there's such a

wide spectrum of believers in that media.

That.

You know that range from being Tolerant of my Calvinism to being

vehemently opposed while still embracing me as a brother and friend.

And sometimes some of these things that rise up within

Reformed circles like the flaunting of of alcohol Or the flaunting of

liberty to drink alcohol perhaps an overuse of Of

worldly music in especially in regard to worship services

like for instance, I I am not immediately offended by rap.

Christian rap music as long as the.

The.

Way that the the person rapping Carries himself.

He's not mimicking the arrogant proud Greedy

misogynistic Vulgar personality of the secular rap artists.

But even the best of rap artists, I wouldn't want them doing it in a worship service but but

that just that kind of a thing that that just.

It gives another reason an unnecessary reason for our fundamentalist friends.

To or even obviously there are anti Calvinists who are on the opposite end of the spectrum from

fundamentalism as well.

You know you have the more neo -evangelical a warm and fuzzy type of Christians as

well who would reject what we have to say, but some of the things that we add on to.

Our.

Proclamation of the gospel.

Some of the things that have risen up amongst us make it just more confusing and a harder challenge that we face.

Yeah, I think I think that again is is where?

What we are Biblical biblical local church men and

the reason why I started many

years ago in terms of

my own.

These were issues to be addressed and as I began to look at them and as I began to talk with

various people from time To time I was asked my opinion I was all

thinking I did was

out looking the nicest boss.

I've made my assessment.

I've reached certain conclusions I know and now my

responsibility is to get on with life where the Lord that actually helps me in answering.

Yes, I may have a responsibility To people outside of my immediate

I'm not called to be a and I

think I think that that's that's one of the dangers of these dog

and everybody else is

Fine if you have brothers and sisters in Christ

disagree now those who trust

in holiness you

can have these discussions and you can have these engagements and

your alliances and Allegiances your cooperation and

commuted by those

where you are.

So yes, it's I think if we properly limit our

relationship a lot of energy and

a lot of time Instead of and don't always

have a great deal to do With our with our immediate you and

I are just

talking about now.

Answer those questions the principles are the

same and I think that's a help to us.

I don't know if that answers your question.

Yes, it does.

And but by the way I failed to ask you this and I was gonna ask you at the very beginning because I think it is relevant

to our discussion.

How old are you?

That's a good one.

I've never heard that before.

I Just thought it was applicable because we're talking about New Calvinism and it seems to be more of

a draw to younger Christians.

You're one of these guys, you know, why are you pointing the finger you're part of a gang?

Whether or not that's true or not, but I'm yeah, I'm right in the mix.

I'm part of those Generations that seem to have been involved in and carried along by this.

That's why I had to again put speaking personally when my peers started saying, you know,

let's Let's go with this and you come along with us at the stop and

say why on what basis?

What am I being.

The impetus is more carefully and we're out of

time.

And I want to make sure that I give your website again for Maiden Bower Baptist Church in Crawley, England in the

West Sussex area.

It's M a B a ch org M as in Michael a B as in boy a

ch org and If anybody wants to get the New Calvinism book New Calvinism

considered go to ep books Org EP for evangelical press books org.

Was my honor and privilege to interview you today Jeremy.

And I look forward to your return and I hope everybody listening always remembers for the rest of your lives That Jesus

Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.

God bless.