March 15, 2021 Show with Justin Peters on “Rome & the Charismatic Movement: The Signs & Wonders Connection”

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March 16, 2021

March 15, 2021 JUSTIN PETERS, evangelist, conference speaker & founder of Justin Peters Ministries, who will address: “ROME & The CHARISMATIC MOVEMENT: The SIGNS & WONDERS CONNECTION (& Their Denial of the Sufficiency of Scripture)”

00:04: Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister, George Norcross, in downtown
00:10: Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,
00:23: Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.
00:31: Proverbs, chapter 27, verse 17, tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.
00:38: Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation, to make one another wiser and better.
00:50: It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions, and now here's your host,
01:00: Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,
01:10: Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet
01:15: Earth, who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is
01:21: Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Monday. On the 15th day of March 2021, and I realize now with this cold that I have, hearing my own voice in my headphones,
01:36: I should have introduced myself as Steve Brown, filling in for Chris Arnzen.
01:42: I don't know if anybody of you know Steve Brown, a Reformed professor and radio host, but I think
01:49: I sound exactly like him right now. But I am thrilled to have back on the program
01:57: Justin Peters, one of my dear friends in ministry and also one of my very favorite guests to interview.
02:07: He is an evangelist, a conference speaker, and founder of Justin Peters Ministries.
02:13: He's also going to be one of the speakers at the upcoming G3 Conference in late
02:20: September, early October in Atlanta, Georgia, where I will be manning, once again, an exhibitor's booth.
02:27: And today, Justin and I are going to be discussing Rome, the charismatic movement,
02:34: I'm sorry, I said that wrong, Rome and the charismatic movement, the signs and wonders connection, and their denial of the sufficiency of Scripture.
02:45: And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Trip and Zion Radio, Justin Peters. Hey, Chris, it's always a pleasure and an honor to be with you, brother.
02:55: Thank you so much. Tell our listeners about Justin Peters Ministries. Sure, Chris, well,
03:02: I am an evangelist, I sometimes hesitate to call myself an evangelist because you automatically think of the televangelists, the very people that I'm known for critiquing and calling out as the false prophets and charlatans that they are, but hopefully,
03:19: Lord willing, I am a biblical evangelist, I travel and preach and teach in churches across the
03:27: United States and internationally. My first commitment is to expositional preaching, preaching the
03:34: Word of God verse by verse and exposing the meaning of the text. I also do a lot of work in apologetics and polemics,
03:44: I'm most known for exposing the unbiblical nature of the
03:51: Word of Faith movement, the health and wealth gospel, Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, Joel Osteen, Creflo Dollar, Joyce Meyer, most of the people,
04:01: Joseph Prince, most of the people that you see on television that say it's always God's will to be wealthy, it's always
04:06: God's will to be physically healed, and I expose that movement for the farce that it is.
04:13: So, that's it in a nutshell. Well, if anybody wants to find out more about Justin Peters Ministries, you can go to justinpeters .org,
04:23: justinpeters .org, and I'm sure we will remember, well, hopefully we'll remember to announce that later on in the program as well.
04:33: Well, this program might have some folks scratching their heads, either those that are
04:42: Roman Catholic or those that are charismatic, perhaps even especially charismatics who used to be
04:50: Roman Catholic, when we would dare to make an association between the two, as I said at the outset, our theme today is
05:00: Rome and the charismatic movement, the signs and wonders connection, and their denial of the sufficiency of Scripture.
05:08: Well, some people may be scratching their heads because your average Roman Catholic church parish, if you were to visit that, and I would highly advise that nobody does, because I do visit
05:26: Roman Catholic churches when I am attending a wedding or a funeral, and I know that some of my dear friends that I know, especially it seems those who are formerly
05:39: Roman Catholic, do not even do that, but I believe
05:44: I have liberty to do that as long as I don't participate in any of the idolatrous ceremonies and rites that are taking place.
05:54: I'm there as an observer, and for the same reason I would go to a synagogue if a
05:59: Jewish friend died, or a mosque if a Muslim friend died, or an apostate liberal mainline
06:08: Protestant church if someone who belonged to that church died. But anyway, if you go to, if you visit a typical local
06:19: Roman Catholic parish, unless it is a part of the charismatic Catholic renewal, or the charismatic
06:29: Catholic movement, you will likely see something, or experience something, witness something, that is a polar opposite worship service to what you would find in a typical charismatic or Pentecostal church.
06:46: Typically Roman Catholic worship services are very structured, they're very stoic and somber, they are very quiet other than the sound of bells and the priest speaking, they are very predictable and repetitive, and I can remember as a
07:12: Catholic growing up finding them painfully boring. Most of the services, which tend to last about 45 minutes, are elements of the rite of the mass, and you typically have a very short sermon that they call a homily, that I don't think that they typically last more than 5 or 10 minutes at the most, and that obviously the contents of those homilies will differ from parish to parish depending upon who the parish priest is.
07:48: And then of course, you go to a charismatic church and very often, most often, it is far from any of those things, they're far from structured, they're far from liturgical in the sense of a
08:00: Roman Catholic church, they're far from stoic, they're very energetic, lively, people are usually expressing great joy and so on, and not that we are opposed to those things,
08:14: Justin and I, as far as joy and enjoying new life in Christ and celebrating what
08:24: God has done for us, but at the same time, there are connections between Rome and the charismatic movement, and that would include the signs and wonders connection, and as I said, their denial of the sufficiency of Scripture.
08:38: What would you like to comment about my opening description of our theme today?
08:45: Yeah, Chris, Roman Catholicism is treated by most evangelicals, unfortunately, as just another denomination, and it's not.
08:56: Roman Catholicism is diametrically opposed to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
09:02: It is literally anathematized, salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, and Christ alone,
09:09: Council of Trent, and so it's literally anathematized, the
09:14: Gospel, in other words, if you believe that salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, and Christ alone, you are anathematized, you are damned, and will go to hell.
09:23: So it's not just another denomination, but what we're going to be talking about today are the striking similarities between Roman Catholicism and the
09:35: Word of Faith movement, the charismatic movement in general, and I'd like us to talk about a few different areas, but absolutely the denial of the sufficiency of Scripture.
09:50: Some of the overlaps here between Word of Faith and Roman Catholicism, they both have very aberrant views of the
09:56: Atonement. The work of Christ on the cross, very heretical views of the Atonement. They both have an emphasis on signs and wonders.
10:07: They both teach the little God's doctrine, interestingly, and if a lot of people don't realize that, maybe we could explore that a little bit, but they both teach that if you are in Christ, you are a
10:18: God. And also, they both have an extra source of authority other than Scripture.
10:30: And that's kind of where we're going to plant for most of our time,
10:35: I think, is that they have an extra source of authority outside of the Scripture. For the
10:41: Word of Faith folks, it is dreams and visions, trips to heaven, you know,
10:48: God spoke to me and gave me this revelation, God gave me a dream, He gave me a vision,
10:53: God took me to heaven. All these kinds of things that are standard fare in the
10:59: Word of Faith movement. And for the Roman Catholic Church, it is the
11:05: Magisterium. And the Magisterium is the Roman Catholic teaching that authority is vested, the authority to rightly interpret
11:17: Scripture is vested solely with the Pope and the
11:23: Roman Catholic bishops. And they believe that church tradition is also used to interpret
11:29: Scripture. So the real authority to interpret Scripture rests with the
11:36: Pope, their bishops, and church tradition, and they use these things to interpret Scripture.
11:42: So in other words, they really deny a priesthood of a believer. They don't believe that you as a believer have the ability to rightly interpret
11:52: Scripture on your own. And I tell people that really all you need to know about the
11:59: Roman Catholic Church is that for its entire history, the entire history of the
12:04: Roman Catholic Church is one of it doing its dead level best to keep the Word of God out of the hands of everyday people.
12:14: So they both have a source of authority outside of Scripture.
12:19: And that's the real commonality between Word of Faith and the
12:27: Roman Catholic Church. They deny the sufficiency of Scripture. They won't deny
12:32: Scripture itself. They're not going to say, well, the Bible is not the Word of God. It's not that kind of denial. But they'll say, the
12:38: Bible is the Word of God plus this. The Bible is the Word of God plus Apocrypha.
12:46: Yeah. Go ahead. No, keep going. Yeah, and so the
12:51: Bible is the Word of God, but we also have to have church tradition. That's authoritative, too.
12:58: Papal bulls, when the Pope speaks ex cathedra, out of his chair, whatever the
13:03: Pope says, that's infallible. So that's our authority. Church tradition is our authority.
13:08: The bishops and the Pope and their interpretation of Scripture, that's authoritative.
13:14: The Apocrypha. They also believe the Apocrypha is a collection of 11 books outside of the canonical books that they also believe are inspired and authoritative.
13:28: And so, never mind that the Apocrypha has some truly bizarre teachings, like the
13:34: Book of Tobit teaches that if you put the fish heart, like the heart of a fish, literally on coals, it can forgive sins for the dead or something like that.
13:46: It's just bizarre kind of stuff. But they believe that all of this is authoritative just as much as Scripture is.
13:52: So it's not that they're going to say, no, the Bible's not the Word of God, but they're going to say, yeah, the Bible plus all these other things.
14:00: Yes. The denial of the sufficient description. And even though we would, I think, rightly say and observe that both the
14:12: Church of Rome and the charismatic movement deny the sufficiency of Scripture, only the
14:20: Roman Catholic Church actually admits it. They would admit, especially their scholars and theologians and apologists, will be right in the forefront of enthusiastically denying the formal sufficiency of Scripture.
14:42: Whereas charismatics, I think that you would be hard -pressed to find a charismatic or Pentecostal or a non -cessationist actually saying or writing in words,
14:56: I deny the sufficiency of the Scripture. That would be a difference there, wouldn't it?
15:04: Right. Yep. It would. It would. And the charismatics would say, they would say, yes, the
15:11: Bible is the Word of God. And any dream or vision or word that you think
15:17: God has spoken to you, if it contradicts Scripture, it must be rejected. Well, yes, of course.
15:23: But they're also going to say if your dream or vision is in congruence with the
15:30: Word of God, then that's authoritative. And it simply cannot be true.
15:36: And they try to strike a middle ground, Chris. They try to say, well, yeah, it is authoritative.
15:42: As long as what you hear from God aligns with Scripture, it is authoritative, but doesn't rise to the same level of authority as Scripture.
15:55: And, of course, my question is, well, how is that possible? I mean, God cannot speak less authoritatively on one occasion than He does on another.
16:05: If God is speaking, God is speaking. And whatever He says should carry just as much authority as any verse in the
16:11: Bible. It's not like God can speak in the Bible and really, really, really mean it. But when He speaks to us outside of the
16:17: Bible, He still means it, but not as much as He meant it in the
16:23: Bible. It's almost like He has His anthropomorphic fingers crossed. Yeah, I mean it, but just not quite as much as I meant what
16:29: I said in Scripture. So, I mean, it's a hopelessly incongruous position to have.
16:35: It's illogical. But the Bible is not enough.
16:41: It's not enough for Word of Faith adherence, and it's not enough for Roman Catholics.
16:47: And that is truly common ground. There's a lot of overlap between Word of Faith and Roman Catholicism.
16:54: Yes, and another difference, not that all charismatic churches perform or conduct healing services.
17:04: Some do not, although they believe in a modern -day gift of healing.
17:11: Some Pentecostal churches, I remember, unless they were doing it at some other time during their service,
17:18: I don't remember Jimmy Swagger healing people, at least not in Mass like Benny Hinn pretends to be doing.
17:28: But your average Catholic, going to a
17:34: Mass, would not necessarily, unless he was, once again, at a charismatic
17:39: Catholic parish, which actually conducted healing services, they're not going to be typically seeing claims of the miraculous.
17:49: They're not going to see people getting up out of wheelchairs and dancing and stuff like that. But they hear about these types of things typically in faraway places.
18:04: They hear about it in Lourdes, France. They hear about the
18:10: Marian apparitions, the so -called manifestations of Mary in different parts of the world, some of which have taken place recently, but the ones that are more bona fide in the
18:29: Church of Rome were those that took place earlier in the 20th century and before.
18:41: So there's another difference that we have to clarify because of the confusion that some
18:46: Catholics may have hearing this comparison. And also, there does exist a considerable movement of conservative
18:59: Roman Catholics that are opposed to the charismatic movement within the Church of Rome. But a lot of this is because the
19:13: Catholic Church, along with charismatics, they seem to demand things that appeal to the senses.
19:24: Do they not? Even though, as I've already been saying, you have a stark contrast between the stoic and formal and rigidly structured
19:36: Roman Catholic Mass and sometimes a wild and out -of -control charismatic service, giving an extreme example, even though those are polar opposites, you have in the
19:54: Catholic worship services things like candles and the smell of incense and the sound of bells.
20:01: These are things that are sensory -driven.
20:08: They're meant to appeal to the senses. They're meant to make this event more religious.
20:15: And on one hand, I can appreciate the fact that Catholics, even though I am not an ecumenist and I believe they have a false gospel,
20:27: I can appreciate an attempt, an effort, to not trivialize what a worship service is.
20:36: As many evangelical churches have done, even those that are not charismatic, there is a growing appeal or popularity of flippancy.
20:50: There is a growing popularity of just making everybody feeling warm, cozy, and wonderful and bubbly and joyful in absence of any comment or mention of sin and hell, if you follow what
21:07: I'm saying. Don't you think that that appeal to the senses is something that exists very much so in both segments of the signs and wonders connection here?
21:23: Yes, Chris, you're right. They both appeal to the senses and they both appeal to the experiential, but they do it in different ways.
21:32: You're right. With Roman Catholicism, the services are typically very somber, very stoic, as you said.
21:40: There's no, you know, outward speaking in tongues or hooping and hollering and jumping pews or anything like that.
21:48: It's the opposite of that. But there's a lot of bells, there's a lot of incense, and a lot of genuflection.
21:57: You know, you kneel down and you make the sign of the cross and you repeat mantras, and so it engages your senses, undoubtedly.
22:07: The Word of Faith movement, charismatic churches, do the same thing. But with them, it's the more exuberant manifestations of the so -called, quote -unquote, spirit, which is not the
22:19: Holy Spirit. Maybe a spirit, but it's not the Holy Spirit. But, you know, running around in circles and getting slain in the spirit and speaking in tongues and shaking and vibrating and flopping around on the floor like a fish and that kind of stuff.
22:32: So they both appeal to the experiential, but they do it in different ways. The Roman Catholic Church does, however, have, in many respects, an emphasis on healing, but differently than the
22:48: Word of Faith movement does. As you mentioned, lords. In France, there is, to this day, there are claims of miracles coming out of lords, but they're not real.
23:00: There's the Marian apparitions that you mentioned as well. In fact, whenever we want to work it in,
23:07: I've got some quotes from Mary, that is, things that she has said in these apparitions.
23:17: And there's another common element between Roman Catholicism and Word of Faith. It's very common for Word of Faith folks to claim that Jesus appeared to them or an angel appeared to them.
23:29: An angel showed up in my bedroom, standing at the foot of my bed. An angel was sitting on my dresser. Jesus showed up to me and taught me how to play the clarinet.
23:38: That's not hyperbole, by the way. There's this guy named
23:44: Kevin Sedai. I said, well, he's a frequent guest on Sid Roth's program. He claims that Jesus taught him how to play the clarinet, the flute, oboe, or whatever, some number of instruments.
23:55: I had a lady one time tell me, we were having lunch with her, and she claims that Jesus showed up and helped her to hook up her horse trailer in Texas one day.
24:08: So they get these visions of Jesus and angels, and the
24:13: Roman Catholic Church has their version of that as well. Specifically, Mary shows up to people in Guadalupe, in Lourdes, France, and from time to time, there's an image of Mary burned in my toast.
24:32: An angel, Mary's image showed up in a window or something like that.
24:37: It's very, very common within Roman Catholicism. So the same basic claims, they're just packaged differently for different audiences.
24:49: Yes, and there's more to be said about even some of what we already said, and we will move on to some other things.
24:57: I definitely want you to give us some of these quotes that you have that allegedly came from the lips of Mary, the mother of Jesus.
25:07: And if anybody would like to join us with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.
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25:27: USA, and only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.
25:32: Don't go away. We'll be right back with Justin Peters on Rome and the charismatic movement, the signs and wonders connection, and their denial of the sufficiency of scripture.
25:52: Hello dear ones, my name is Justin Peters, and my friend Chris Arnzen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and I are frequently blessed to share great times of fellowship with one another at conferences all over the
26:05: United States. We'll both be enjoying more fellowship together at the G3 Conference in Atlanta, Georgia, Thursday, September 30th through Saturday, October 2nd, on the theme,
26:17: Christ is supreme over all. I'll be speaking there, along with over 20 other speakers, including
26:23: John MacArthur, Phil Johnson, Votie Balcom, Joel Beakey, and James White.
26:29: For details, visit g3conference .com. That's g3conference .com.
26:38: Please join Chris Arnzen and me September 30th through October 2nd at G3 2021.
26:45: This is Justin Peters reminding you that Christ is supreme over all. Fellowshiping with the family.
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36:20: Our guest today is my dear friend Justin Peters of Justin Peters Ministries.
36:26: We are addressing Rome and the charismatic movement, the signs and wonders connection, and their denial of the sufficiency of scripture.
36:33: And we are, God willing, being momentarily joined by Andrew Rappaport, our mutual friend who will co -host with me.
36:41: He is the founder of StrivingForEternity .org. Has Andrew joined us yet?
36:48: Yes, I have. Thank you very much, Chris, for letting me be here. That's great. And if you're using packing tape or something right now as you're moving your offices or something, please stop doing that, because we can hear.
37:01: I hear something weird going on in the background. But anyway, I'd like Justin, if you could, to give us some of these
37:13: Marian quotes, these alleged quotes of Mary from various Marian apparitions that you wanted to reveal to our audience.
37:23: Yeah, Chris, and just in case we have some new listeners, we were talking about the commonality between the Word of Faith movement and Roman Catholicism, and that Word of Faith adherent claim they get visions of Jesus or angels.
37:38: Usually it's relegated to that, either Jesus or angels. Roman Catholics get visions of Mary, and there's been a number of notable
37:48: Marian apparitions. The first most notable one, anyway, was back in 1531 in Guadalupe, Mexico.
37:58: Mary allegedly appeared to a man named Juan Diego on four different occasions, three in one location and one in a different one.
38:08: Anyway, this quote -unquote Mary appeared to Juan Diego, and she said this, quote,
38:17: No, no for sure, my dearest, littlest, and youngest son, that I am the perfect and ever -virgin
38:26: Holy Mary. Okay, that's loaded with issues right there.
38:34: Yeah. One thing, I'm not
38:39: Mary's son. I'm not Mary's son. So Mary's children are long gone, so I'm not
38:49: Mary's son. But she said that I am perfect. There is only one who is perfect, and that is
38:56: God. And so this quote -unquote Mary that appeared to Juan Diego is claiming deity is what she's doing, is claiming deity.
39:07: So this was not the real Mary. It very well may have been a demon, and we know from Scripture, 2
39:15: Corinthians 11, that Satan disguises himself out as an angel of light. So this
39:22: Mary thing that appeared to Juan Diego is claiming to be deity, and she says that she is the ever -virgin
39:31: Holy Mary, and that's a staple doctrine in Roman Catholicism, that Mary remained a perpetual virgin, that she never had sexual relations with her husband
39:42: Joseph, and that's just patently not true. Jesus was conceived in Mary when she was a virgin, but after Jesus was born,
39:53: Mary and Joseph had other children the old -fashioned way. Jesus had siblings.
39:58: It's very clear from Scripture. He had siblings. James, for example, who wrote the book that bears his name, was
40:07: Jesus' half -brother. So it's just patently untrue.
40:13: And then she says this, quote, I am your truly merciful mother, yours and all the people who have united in this land, and of all the other people of different ancestries, my lovers who love me, those who seek me, those who trust in me, here
40:32: I will hear their weeping, their complaints, and heal all their sorrows, hardships, and sufferings.
40:41: So this Mary is appearing and asking people, telling people to trust not in Jesus, but to trust in her.
40:52: And then she says further, another quote, Am I not here, I who am your mother?
40:59: Are you not under my shadow and protection? Am I not the source of your joy?
41:05: Are you not in the hollow of my mantle and the crossing of my arms? Do you need anything more?
41:13: That is blasphemy. And yet the Roman Catholic Church has canonized this
41:20: Juan Diego because of these apparitions. Two possibilities here,
41:25: Chris. Juan Diego either just made it up, you know, Mary, he never saw anything, just made it up out of, just product of his own vain imaginations.
41:34: Or, if he did see something, he saw either a demon or Satan himself disguising himself as an angel of light, because this was not the real
41:46: Mary. I mean, this is, she is, this Mary is saying things and describing to herself abilities and attributes that can only rest with God.
41:57: Are you not under my shadow and protection? Well, no, Mary, actually I'm not under your shadow and protection. I'm under the protection of God.
42:04: And she says, Am I not the source of your joy? No, Mary, you're not the source of my joy. Christ is the source of my joy.
42:13: She is elevating herself to deific status, to the same status as that of Jesus Christ.
42:21: It is utter blasphemy. And yet the Roman Catholic Church to this day holds up these
42:28: Marian apparitions of Guadalupe back in 1531 as canonical.
42:35: They affirm this. They, you know, and Catholics will tell you that, oh, we don't worship
42:44: Mary. They know that that's one of the common objections that evangelicals have towards Roman Catholicism.
42:50: And they'll say, well, evangelicals say that we worship Mary. No, we don't worship Mary. Well, yeah, you do, actually.
42:56: You absolutely worship Mary because you believe that she is the source of our joy.
43:03: In fact, Roman Catholics, Roman Catholicism holds that Mary is the podiatrix with Jesus, that she is a mediator just as Jesus was and is.
43:18: They pray to Mary. Prayer is an act of worship. That's what prayer is. It's an act of worship.
43:24: And so whomever it is to whom you are praying, you are ascribing to that individual worship.
43:33: And they don't just pray to Mary, by the way. They pray to a whole lot of other saints as well. They have a whole pantheon of saints that they pray to.
43:43: It's paganism. It is a baptized version of Roman paganism.
43:49: Roman paganism had their own pantheon of gods. And Roman Catholicism took that principle and just kind of baptized it, if you will, to use that term,
44:01: Christianized it, and made this whole doctrine of this pantheon of saints that we pray to.
44:10: And so it's Roman paganism wrapped in a bit of a Christian veneer. Yeah, I guess a similarity between what you just read, those very blasphemous, heretical words that were placed in the mouth of Mary never came from her mouth in reality.
44:31: No. The similarity where you would find something anywhere or anything remotely similar in the charismatic world would be in the
44:42: Word of Faith movement, where Kenneth Copeland actually claimed that God the
44:49: Father told him that he could have died for the sins of mankind. Do you recall that?
44:59: Absolutely. Yeah, and I don't have it where it's queued up for us to play, but yes, Kenneth Copeland claims that Jesus appeared to him and said, and I just have it memorized because I presented it.
45:10: Oh, it was Jesus, not Copeland. Yes, Jesus. Jesus appeared to Kenneth Copeland and said, quote,
45:18: Don't be disturbed when people accuse you of thinking you are God. They crucified me for claiming that I was
45:27: God, but I didn't claim I was God. I just claimed I walked with him. He was in me. Hallelujah. That's what you are doing.
45:33: That's one statement from Jesus to Kenneth Copeland. On another occasion, Kenneth Copeland said that Jesus said,
45:43: If you knew who you were, you could have done the same thing. In the context of this, referring to the atonement, you could have done the same thing because you are a reborn man too.
45:55: In other words, Kenneth Copeland, if he just realized who he was, he could atone for sins.
46:01: And they also not only are escalating, elevating, Kenneth Copeland, or he,
46:08: I should say, Kenneth Copeland is elevating himself in a very blasphemous and heretical way.
46:14: He is diminishing Christ because the Word of Faith movement actually teaches that Jesus Christ needed to be born again, and he was born again in hell after he died.
46:24: Correct? Correct. Yes, that is absolutely correct. The Word of Faith movement holds that the atonement of our sins did not take place on the cross.
46:35: When Jesus died on the cross, the work of the atonement had not been completed. It had just begun. And when
46:41: Jesus died on the cross, then he went to hell. He suffered, was tortured, tormented by the demons, and Satan himself died a spiritual death, ceased to be
46:51: God, and had to be reborn. That Jesus actually got saved in hell, and that's where the atonement of our sins took place, not on the cross, but down in hell.
47:03: So it's a blasphemous view of the atonement. Andrew Rappaport, do you have any questions before we go to our midway break?
47:12: Yeah, I mean, it sounds, Justin, like the claims that they're making of Mary sound very similar to what we've seen in the
47:21: Word of Faith with the little God doctrine. And I think that's what Chris was getting to. But maybe you could help folks understand what that little
47:29: God's doctrine is. Yeah, absolutely. So the
47:34: Word of Faith movement holds that if you are a Christian, then you are a little God.
47:40: You have the ability to speak things into existence. And if you are entitled to health and wealth, because you're a
47:48: God, and a God cannot be born, a God certainly cannot be sick. So when you become a
47:53: Christian, you actually become a little God. Interestingly, a lot of people don't know this, but Roman Catholicism teaches basically the same thing.
48:03: They also believe and teach that when you become a Catholic and you're baptized, because baptism is what makes your salvation real and secures it, it's your baptism of the
48:17: Catholic Church. But when that happens, you become a God. And I imagine if there's any
48:24: Catholics listening right now, you're probably banging on your window and saying, no we don't, no we don't.
48:29: Well, the thing is, is a lot of Catholics don't really know what the Roman Catholic Church teaches.
48:35: I'm going to read this to you from the Catechism of the Catholic Church. This is official
48:42: Roman Catholic doctrine. Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 460, if you would like to look it up.
48:48: It says this, quote, For the Son of God became man, so that we might become
48:55: God. The only begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature so that he made men, might make men gods.
49:10: End quote. Wow, you know, I was raised Roman Catholic and arranged many
49:15: Roman Catholic versus Evangelical Protestant debates, and for some reason that never came up.
49:22: I mean, that's right out of Mormonism. You know, that's the exact teaching that we see within Mormonism as well.
49:30: And actually, Justin, maybe you could speak to this briefly, but this is really rooted back in the
49:36: Garden. This all comes from what happened in Genesis chapter 3 with the serpent and Eve.
49:44: And maybe that's why we see it in so many different false religions. But maybe you want to speak to, you know, the fact that this is what the serpent promised
49:53: Eve, that she could be like God. Yeah, you're exactly right,
49:59: Andrew. This goes back to the fallen man back in the Garden of Eden, the desire to be just like God.
50:04: That's what led to the whole fallen state in the first place. And yet the faith preachers,
50:10: Word of Faith, and Roman Catholicism teaches it as truth. The very thing that led to the whole fallen state in the first place.
50:18: So you talk about a tragic irony. They are holding up as truth the very thing that led to the fall in the first place.
50:30: So, yeah, it is truly this little God's doctrine that is taught by both
50:35: Word of Faith and Roman Catholicism is truly and quite literally a doctrine of demons.
50:42: A doctrine of demons born out of the bowels of hell itself. Now we have to, I think, give another clarification, because people may be tuning in late and didn't hear my other clarification or my caveat.
50:56: Number one, I believe all three men here believe that there will be charismatics and Catholics in heaven with us.
51:07: Especially when you're speaking of Catholics, those that actually believe the true gospel in spite of the damning gospel that is dogmatically taught in the
51:18: Church of Rome. Because there are Catholics that do not follow in lockstep with the dogmas of Rome.
51:27: Sometimes for better, sometimes for worse. And also, we are not lumping charismatics all in the same lump.
51:34: I have had charismatics as guests on this show where I was affirming everything that they were saying.
51:41: Maybe they were talking about a specific book they wrote that I believed in from cover to cover. So I want to make it clear that we're not saying that all folks who are charismatic and all folks who claim to be
51:54: Catholic are going to hell. And we're also not saying all charismatics believe in what the
52:01: Word of Faith heretics we are quoting or that Justin is quoting. And not all
52:09: Catholics believe some of the very bizarre things that their so -called saints have said.
52:17: And so you're also going to have moments during the show where charismatics are in polar opposition to Catholic teaching that is cited and vice versa.
52:29: You're going to have Catholics being very opposed to things they hear from the other side of this equation, the
52:37: Roman, the charismatic movement, the signs and wonders connection. But we have to go to our midway break right now.
52:43: It's the longer than normal break. Please use this time wisely. Write down as much of the information as you can for as many of our advertisers as you can so that you can more frequently and successfully patronize them, even if that just means contacting them through the information they provide in their ads and saying,
53:02: Hey, thank you so much for sponsoring Iron Shepherd's Iron Radio. If you can't purchase products or use services or visit churches that are advertised, at least thank them for sponsoring the show.
53:13: And also use this time to write down questions for Justin Peters and send them to ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.
53:20: ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. We will continue our discussion on Rome and the charismatic movement, the signs and wonders connection right after these messages from our sponsors.
53:41: I'm James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries. My friend Chris Arnzen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and I are headed down to Atlanta, Georgia once again for the
53:50: G3 Conference. This year's G3 will be held Thursday, September 30th, through Saturday, October 2nd on the theme,
53:58: Christ is Supreme Over All. I'll be joined by over 20 other speakers and musicians to lead in the worship of God through preaching, teaching, and singing, including
54:07: John MacArthur, Phil Johnson, Conrad M. Bayway, Daryl Bernard Harrison, and Virgil Walker.
54:13: For details, visit g3conference .com. That's g3conference .com.
54:18: Chris Arnzen and I hope to see you September 30th through October 2nd at G321. This is
54:24: James White reminding you that Christ is Supreme Over All. We are excited to announce another new member of the
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55:49: In Psalm 139 verse 14, the psalmist offers praise to the Lord like this.
55:54: I praise you because I'm fearfully and wonderfully made, and wondrous are your works that my soul knows very well.
56:02: He saw God's goodness and mercy, kindness, and the beauty in what
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01:09:39: Before I return to Justin Peters and Andrew Rappaport for our discussion on Rome and the charismatic movement, the signs and wonders connection, and their denial of the sufficiency of scripture,
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01:11:49: Rome and the Charismatic Movement The Signs and Wonders Connection. And before we go back to our discussion,
01:11:56: Justin, I am thrilled that once again the G3 conference is advertising on my show.
01:12:03: I'm thrilled that I will be manning an exhibitors booth for Iron Trouper and Zion Radio there again. And you are one of the speakers there.
01:12:10: I am so thrilled. Why don't you tell us just a little bit about this conference? Yeah, sure
01:12:17: Chris. G3 is a great conference. I've heard it described as a shepherd's conference for families.
01:12:24: So, you know, unlike the shepherd's conference where it's just shepherds, just men who attend, the
01:12:30: G3 conference is open to families. So husbands, wives, kiddos, everyone can come.
01:12:37: And it's just a wonderful time. Very good, very sound speakers. And it's not just the speakers.
01:12:43: I mean, that's of course the primary point of the conference, but just the fellowship.
01:12:49: I think I could safely say for Andrew who's with us that one of the things that we enjoy as much as anything with the shepherd's conference is the fellowship that we have with each other for several days.
01:13:03: And the same will be true at the G3 conference coming up in October. So I'm really looking forward to it.
01:13:10: Yes, actually, September 30th through October 2nd in Atlanta, Georgia, Thursday through Saturday.
01:13:18: And the speakers include Stephen Lawson, Votie Balcom, Paul Washer, John MacArthur, Hensworth Jonas.
01:13:27: If you've never heard Hensworth Jonas previously, you've got to make sure that you hear him preach at some point, even if you go to sermon audio.
01:13:35: But it'll never be the same if you're not hearing him live. He is a profoundly gifted man that is not quite that well -known right now, but I am very confident he will be, just like my other dear friend who's also a mutual friend of Hensworth, Conrad M.
01:13:54: Bayway. And I am looking forward to seeing both of them. Conrad is also going to be there.
01:14:01: Joel Beeky, another one of my favorite speakers of all time and writers. And the list goes on and on.
01:14:10: You can hear the ads that we have been playing every day. We list some of the speakers and all the details.
01:14:17: Just go to G3conference .com to register or find out more about the conference, G3conference .com.
01:14:24: Before we go to some of the issues, I know that you are interested to address about this theme that we have before us,
01:14:34: Rome and the charismatic movement. There is another similarity, especially when you're talking about the
01:14:42: Word of Faith Pentecostals. There is something in the history of the
01:14:48: Church of Rome that many people might be surprised still exists.
01:14:54: It did not die away with the coming and going of Martin Luther King who protested the sale of indulgences.
01:15:04: They still remain with us. In fact, every time you purchase what is called a Mass card, if you are
01:15:12: Roman Catholic of course, and you purchase one of these cards for someone you love for a whole host of occasions, they will typically include a certain order of nuns that will be praying for you and they are praying to the
01:15:30: Lord your time in purgatory. Well, aren't the
01:15:35: Word of Faith movement heretics in their sales pitches, their fund -driving campaigns very much mirroring, even if it is unintentionally, the sale of indulgences that Tetzel became infamous for, terrifying people that if they don't give money to the church that they will spend a longer time in purgatory and their loved ones will spend a longer time in purgatory and that in fact is how that giant castle in the
01:16:09: Vatican, St. Peter's Basilica, that is how that building was purchased, or should
01:16:18: I say built, that was how the funds that came from the sale of indulgences is how the
01:16:25: Basilica was built. But aren't there great similarities there, even if a Word of Faith Pentecostal might deny purgatory as a doctrine?
01:16:35: The similarities are unquestionable, aren't they? Without a doubt,
01:16:40: Chris, Tetzel is famous or rather infamous for saying for every coin into the copper rings a soul from purgatory springs.
01:16:49: So, in other words, with Roman Catholicism, the more money you give to the
01:16:54: Roman Catholic Church, the faster mom or dad or grandma will get out of purgatory.
01:17:00: A Word of Faith has its own system of indulgences. You rightly point out that Word of Faith, by definition, because they are under the large umbrella of Protestantism, they would reject purgatory.
01:17:14: But they have their own system of indulgences, and that is seed faith theology. Sow a seed, reap a harvest.
01:17:23: And they promise you that the bigger miracle you need, the more monetary seed you'd better sow.
01:17:31: So if you are dying of cancer, for example, or maybe you have a child who is dying of cancer, so you need a big miracle, well then you need to sow a big seed.
01:17:42: You need to dig deeply and sow a lot of money. Give a lot of money to Benny Hinn or Kenneth Copeland or to Andrew Womack or to Rod Parsley so you can reap your miracle.
01:17:56: And so they have it from not only that angle, but they also conversely say kind of from the flip side of that, they'll say if you want to protect your family from disaster, sow a seed.
01:18:09: If you want to protect your family in a recession, sow a seed.
01:18:15: If you want to protect your family from disease or from the attacks of the enemy, whatever form they come in, sow a seed.
01:18:22: So it's the exact same thing. The exact same error and heresy as Roman Catholicism, just again packaged a little bit differently.
01:18:32: Now, the word of faith actually trumps the heresies of Rome in this area because they actually do in a sense believe in purgatory, but the only person that ever was there was
01:18:45: Jesus Christ. They believe that he went to hell and became the first born -again man there after being tormented in hell.
01:18:57: Now, why did they believe that, why did they number one believe that was necessary for him to be born again and why did they even believe it was possible?
01:19:06: Did they believe that he was not perfectly sinless and was not the God -man when he walked the earth and walked carrying the cross to Golgotha to be crucified?
01:19:18: Don't they believe that he was the God -man during that whole time including his conception in Mary's womb and the virgin birth and so on?
01:19:31: Yes and no. So, they would not deny that Jesus was the
01:19:37: God -man, but when they flesh out their Christology, their Christology in effect does deny that Jesus is the
01:19:44: God -man. Specifically, what I mean by that is this, is they believe that when Jesus was on earth, he completely divested himself of his deity.
01:19:54: He laid his divinity aside. That's a direct quote, by the way, from Bill Johnson, the pastor of Bethel Church in Reading, California.
01:20:03: Bill Johnson teaches this, Kenneth Copeland teaches this, Todd White teaches this, that Jesus laid his divinity aside and did all of his signs and wonders, not as God, but as a man in a right relationship with God.
01:20:19: So, he was just a man. He was God, but then when he came to earth, he emptied himself of his deity, and that's a heretical understanding of Philippians chapter 2, 6 and 7.
01:20:33: Jesus did not empty himself, but not of his deity. That's a complete, maybe it's a strong term, but a bastardization of that text.
01:20:45: And so, when Jesus died on the cross, he became sin, not just a sin offering, but he literally turned into sin, died on the cross, went to hell as a sinner, and had to be reborn, had to get saved.
01:21:05: And so, when Jesus was in hell, he was reborn, he became the first reborn man, and guess who you and I are?
01:21:14: We are reborn men and women. And so, therefore, we are just like Jesus. And in their anthropology, we are just as much an incarnation as was
01:21:26: Jesus of Nazareth. And that is also a direct quote. The Christian is just as much an incarnation as was
01:21:32: Jesus of Nazareth. That's a direct quote from Ezekiel. Well, yeah, it's thoroughly heretical.
01:21:43: Yes, the Christian is just as much an incarnation as was
01:21:52: Jesus of Nazareth. Unbelievable. I'm going to read a couple of questions before we return to questions of my own for you.
01:22:03: We have Paul from the Sunshine Coast in Queensland, Australia, who says,
01:22:10: Please, sir, can you define what the Bible means by the gospel? Sure.
01:22:21: I don't want to leave Andrew out of this either, but the word gospel means good news.
01:22:29: We are sinners. We have broken the laws of God. Because we have sinned against God, the punishment of that sin is eternal because God himself is eternal.
01:22:39: We cannot work our way into heaven. God sent his son Jesus Christ to this earth to live as fully
01:22:46: God, fully man, perfectly sinless, lamb without blemish. And Jesus willingly laid down his life on the cross and he bore the wrath of God that we deserve for our sins.
01:22:59: Jesus bore and satisfied God's wrath on the cross, died physically three days later, raised from the dead physically, proving himself to be who he said he was,
01:23:10: God in human flesh. And the only way to be saved, to have the wrath of God removed from us, is to repent of sin and trust the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross.
01:23:21: His righteousness is imputed to us because we have none of our own. It's imputed to us when we repent of sin and trust
01:23:29: Christ in his work of atonement on the cross. Now, there has been, as I mentioned to you earlier before the show started, there has been some banter on the internet amongst charismatics who are claiming, who themselves are also soteriologically reformed, but their pneumatology would be non -cessationist, charismatic, whatever else way you'd like to describe that, continuationist, continuous.
01:24:02: But they have claimed these reformed charismatics, or at least one of them in the conversation, was claiming that you deny the classic reformed ordo salutos, that regeneration must precede conversion, it must precede faith, because man could not summon up from his dead, stone -cold heart, a faith that pleases
01:24:27: God without first being born again, being regenerate. Would you say that you affirm that?
01:24:35: Of course. I'm always amused at what some people amuse me of. I told you in the break, one lady accused me of being a
01:24:41: Jehovah's Witness, and I just never ceased to be amazed. But no, I mean, if you listen to my teaching,
01:24:47: I'm very clear that both faith and repentance, faith in Christ and repentance from sin, both of them are in and of themselves granted to us by God.
01:24:59: I absolutely believe in a monergistic view of salvation, that salvation is the mono, one, ergon, work, one work of God, that we are spiritually dead in trespasses and sins.
01:25:13: There's nothing that we can do by ourselves. We can't even believe by ourselves. Our faith in Christ must, in and of itself, be granted to us by God, and repentance is granted to us by God.
01:25:25: These are the gifts of God, both of them, and when
01:25:30: God grants those, then genuine faith and genuine repentance will bear real fruit.
01:25:38: The fruit that we bear will be evidence of the faith and repentance granted to us by God. And those proceed from a truly regenerate person.
01:25:50: In other words, the regeneration comes first, but instantly the signs of a regenerate person, faith and repentance, flow from that regenerate heart.
01:25:59: Well, I hope that that is clear enough. Do you have a question or a comment?
01:26:04: Yes. Well, yeah, let me make a comment on that because many people are very confused when it comes to this topic, and a very helpful way that I have found for people to understand it is to start with something where both sides end up agreeing.
01:26:18: Start with the doctrine of inspiration. Who wrote the Book of Romans? People are going to say Paul. But if you ask them, they're also going to say
01:26:25: God. Who really wrote it? Well, God wrote it. It's a doctrine known as superintending, that God wrote through the human author in such a way where God gets 100 % of the credit.
01:26:35: God did the work, but experientially, Paul wrote it. But what Paul wrote was exactly what
01:26:41: God intended. We see that doctrine as well when it comes to our sanctification.
01:26:48: You say, who does good works after we're saved? Well, you could say you do the good works, but realistically, theologically,
01:26:54: God did those good works. God gets 100 % of the credit for the good works that we do, even though we may, in our human thinking, we're doing them.
01:27:03: God works through the human author to do exactly what he intends. And when we look at that, and then apply that to regeneration,
01:27:11: I find that that makes it easier for people to realize what Justin was saying, that in Philippians 129, that it has been granted to us to believe.
01:27:22: In other words, God gives this to us so that we can't do this on our own, but God works through the human so that experientially, we think we chose
01:27:31: God. Theologically, God gets 100 % of the credit. He did all the work. And I think that usually helps people when they think about it in these other doctrines to see that there's this similarity.
01:27:42: Yeah, but the people in question calling into question Justin's view would have already been reformed.
01:27:51: They are reformed charismatics who are saying that he denied what you just said. So, in other words, we were not explaining this to Arminian listeners to try to get them to understand what it means.
01:28:03: These were reformed people who are saying that Justin is not truly reformed. That's where that was coming from.
01:28:10: And of course, in Romans 8 verses 8, those who are in the flesh cannot please
01:28:18: God. So, therefore, obviously, if faith is something that pleases
01:28:26: God, faith that is saving faith, if it pleases God, how can we have that if we are in the flesh?
01:28:33: We must be born again first. And, of course, that occurs instantly. The sign of faith and repentance flow instantly from the regenerate heart.
01:28:46: I'll read one more question before we go back to some other questions of my own. We have
01:28:54: Ezekiel in Nigeria who says, How could you uphold the
01:28:59: Holy Spirit, but assert that some of his gifts have ceased? I'm a
01:29:04: Nigerian that can name genuine, charismatic continuationists in America that I know.
01:29:12: Carter Conlon, who took over from David Wilkerson, both are genuine charismatics.
01:29:17: Jim Simbala of Brooklyn Tabernacle is genuine. John Piper, Sam Storms, Wayne Grudem, Francis Chan, David Platt, Terry Virgo, etc.
01:29:27: are all genuine. I will name some Nigerians you may Google search to confirm their genuineness.
01:29:35: I'm going to skip over that because I don't need to do that. We must not always take wrong people as the yardstick of measurement.
01:29:46: Okay, well there's a couple of things there. First is, he says, How can you uphold the
01:29:51: Holy Spirit, but assert that some of his gifts have ceased? I mean, all members of the
01:29:58: Trinity have done things in the past that they do not do today. Isn't that true, Justin?
01:30:05: Yes, absolutely, Chris, and that's an argument that I hear quite often from Charismatics, even from Reformed Charismatics.
01:30:11: Well, how can you say the gifts have ceased? Now, as a cessationist,
01:30:17: I say that only the apostolic gifts, the signed gifts, have ceased. All the other gifts, teaching, administration, exhortation, help, hospitality, all those gifts, very much in operation, only the signed gifts have ceased.
01:30:31: But they say, How can you say those gifts have ceased if Jesus was the same yesterday, today, and forever?
01:30:37: That's kind of an argument. Well, as you just said, Chris, each member of the
01:30:44: Godhead does things today that he did not necessarily do before, and vice versa.
01:30:54: God made the Red Sea part, but he's not making seas part today. God made a donkey talk.
01:31:01: I haven't seen any talking donkeys lately, and I hope nobody else has been seeing talking donkeys lately either.
01:31:08: And the ultimate example of that is Jesus himself, his crucifixion.
01:31:14: That was a one -time event. It certainly happened, but it's not to be repeated. And also using that logic,
01:31:22: Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever, so I don't have to say those gifts have ceased. Well, why aren't we doing animal sacrifices anymore today?
01:31:30: Clearly, they were commanded in Scripture, obviously. And why have there never been sacrifices in boats?
01:31:38: There have never been any confirmed resurrections from the dead.
01:31:46: There have never been any confirmed restored limbs that have been completely severed off, and other appendages on the body that have been severed off.
01:31:57: There's never been one confirmation of a limb or a nose or an ear being miraculously placed back on the human being.
01:32:06: You know, you could go on and on. They're not doing exactly the same things that were occurring in Jesus' day in the apostolic era.
01:32:15: No, they're not. And one of the points that I like to make to people, if all of the fine gifts were still in operation today, then charismatics would not have to expend so much energy trying to convince us all that they are, because it would be manifestly obvious that they are.
01:32:33: I mean, even the critics of Jesus, the critics of Christianity, and the enemies of the gospel in the days of Acts, even they acknowledged, in the days of Jesus' ministry and Acts, even they acknowledged that signs and wonders were being performed by Jesus, by the disciples.
01:32:50: Everyone acknowledged that. It was patently obvious. No one could deny these legitimate signs and wonders.
01:32:57: why aren't those happening today? They simply are not happening today.
01:33:03: They're not. And how can, when it comes to the gift of tongues, so -called, if it is not the gift that occurred in the apostolic era, where people were speaking foreign languages they never learned to speak prior to the miracle occurring, if it is just, if it is just gibberish, for lack of a better term, sorry for offending anybody who affirms modern -day tongues, but how could that be a sign when it is so easily faked, their version of tongues?
01:33:38: It is not easily faked to speak a language that you never before learned, and therefore that would be a sign, that would be a miraculous sign.
01:33:51: Saying gibberish doesn't fit the bill for a sign because anybody could do that some do it better than others, but it is something that could be faked easily, a little tiny child could fake it easily, how could that possibly be a sign and it is interesting that some of the, in fact
01:34:13: I think all of the major Pentecostal denominations insist that tongues is the sign of the gift of the baptism of the
01:34:23: Holy Spirit, am I not right? Yes, that is exactly right Chris, and yeah tongues can be very easily faked,
01:34:31: I can't tell you how many people I've talked to over the years who used to be in the charismatic movement and they spoke in tongues and the gibberish just like you just did, but God delivered them out of that and they are full blown cessation, they are as cessationistic as I am.
01:34:48: Well you've heard in the ads, in fact I've got to introduce you to him, John Sampson is a dear friend of mine who does a couple of commercials for me, he was a pastor in the
01:34:59: Word of Faith movement and a TBN talk show host in the Word of Faith movement and now he is a complete cessationist and Reformed Baptist.
01:35:09: Yeah, that's right, that's right, it's easy, you can learn how to speak in tongues, and pagans do it as well,
01:35:15: Hindus do it as well, Hindus speak in tongues in the exact same way that charismatics do.
01:35:22: There's even a Mormon version of it. Oh yeah,
01:35:29: Mormons speak in tongues, a lot of them, not all of them, but a lot of them do. There's a number of pagan religions that speak in tongues, a lot of people do it, a lot of pagan religions do it and they do it in exactly, exactly the same way that charismatics do, unintelligible, ecstatic, gibberish, that's not the biblical gift of tongues, the gift of languages.
01:35:54: The biblical gift of languages was someone speaking in a known human language, it just wasn't a language not known to that individual, it would be like me, all of a sudden, instantly, being able to speak fluent
01:36:10: Swahili, it's a known language, it's just not known to me, I don't know a single word of Swahili, but if I were to all of a sudden be able to speak fluent
01:36:19: Swahili without ever having had a single minute of instruction in it, then you're getting more into the biblical, that would be a true miracle, that would be a true sign, but that's not what charismatics do.
01:36:31: Okay, we have one more question that I'll read from a listener, Grady, a very faithful and loyal and generous listener in Asheboro, North Carolina, and Grady says,
01:36:41: Greetings, brothers, what is the best way to share the gospel with Roman Catholics? I have a cousin that's
01:36:47: Catholic, and every time I try to share, he says that he's a Christian, and knows there's differences between evangelicals and Catholics, but he's content with his beliefs.
01:36:57: That's pretty much most people when you're trying to evangelize them, and it's interesting how, although this
01:37:04: Catholic calls himself a Christian, it's quite fascinating that many
01:37:10: Catholics will differentiate, but they'll say, I'm a
01:37:15: Roman Catholic and my brother's a Christian, you know, something like that, you know what I'm saying? They actually put them in two different categories, but if you could, before we go to the last break, and continue with some of your other questions.
01:37:28: Yes, I would say you share the gospel with a Roman Catholic the same way you share the gospel with anyone else, that salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, and Roman Catholics do not believe that.
01:37:42: Roman Catholics believe you have to add works to your faith, and so if you're dealing with a
01:37:48: Roman Catholic, ask them, do you believe that salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone?
01:37:54: No works. In other words, if you believe that you contribute into any of your works in any way, contribute to your salvation, then you've trusted a different faith and a different Jesus and a different gospel.
01:38:08: So, help that person, that Roman Catholic, to understand that salvation is not of works.
01:38:14: It's solely by grace, through faith, and if they ascend to that, if they acknowledge that, then you would, if that person is a genuine
01:38:27: Christian, you would expect that person, in short order, to leave the Roman Catholic Church. As you said,
01:38:33: Chris, there are some saved individuals in the
01:38:38: Roman Catholic Church, but they're not saved because of what the church teaches. They're saved inside of what the church teaches.
01:38:44: Once they see what Roman Catholicism actually does teach, if that person is truly
01:38:50: Christian, then the Holy Spirit of God who lives inside of them will deliver them out of that deception.
01:38:56: They're not going to stay in the Roman Catholic Church. They will not stay in it. They will leave it. So, if this person professes to be a
01:39:06: Christian and a Roman Catholic, show them the error of the Roman Catholic Church, and show them the truth of salvation by grace alone and faith alone.
01:39:15: If they're truly Christian, then they will see that, and they'll leave the Roman Catholic Church. They won't stay.
01:39:22: Yes. And Chris, just a real quick way for people to know, because some Catholics will deny that the Catholic Church teaches salvation by works.
01:39:29: Purgatory is the best example, because Purgatory is a place they go to work off their sins.
01:39:36: They can't hold to Purgatory and say they don't have a works -based salvation. And of course, anybody listening, if they look up the
01:39:43: Council of Trent's dogmas, it makes it clear that we are not saved by grace through faith alone.
01:39:53: And they make it clear that works are not just a necessary evidence or fruit of a saved person, like we believe.
01:40:02: They make it very clear in the Council of Trent, which are dogmas that must always be believed by Catholics.
01:40:09: It's not one of those things that can change. Like, for instance, celibacy in the priesthood.
01:40:16: They acknowledge that priests were once married, and even popes, and they admit that there is a possibility that could return.
01:40:24: But that is a difference, that's a discipline, it's not a dogma. And so, therefore, and wouldn't you say, both
01:40:34: Justin and Andrew, that the Book of Galatians is an ideal place to go? I go there even when
01:40:39: I'm trying to convince my ecumenical Protestant friends that Paul took it extremely seriously to add any work to faith in order for one to be considered a true
01:40:52: Christian. So much so that he said that the Judaizers, who probably believed everything that he believed except for the addition of circumcision, he said the
01:41:03: Judaizers had no gospel at all, that they should be accursed, and on and on we could go with the harsh language.
01:41:11: Isn't that an excellent place to be digging in our heels, the
01:41:17: Book of Galatians? Go ahead, Andrew. Yeah, I would say yes.
01:41:24: I mean, Galatians is a condensed version of the Book of Romans, so it's very clear that the law, what
01:41:33: Jewish people would hold to as for salvation, isn't going to save them. Galatians 2, 20, and 21 make that clear.
01:41:43: If you can be saved by the law, as Roman Catholicism teaches, then Christ's death is in vain. It wasn't necessary.
01:41:50: We have to go to our final break, and if you want to join us, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail dot com.
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01:52:40: Welcome back, and our guest today is Justin Peters, and our co -host has also been
01:52:46: Andrew Rappaport, and we are wrapping up things. And Justin, you wanted to quote other words allegedly from the lips of Mary in Roman Catholic Marian apparitions, or in N apparition.
01:53:02: Yes, yes, Chris. This is from Mary in her appearance in Fatima, Portugal in 1917.
01:53:10: She allegedly appeared to three children in Fatima, Portugal. Again, 1917, so a little over a century ago.
01:53:18: But she said this, quote, I will take Jacinta and Francisco shortly. That's two of the children that she appeared to.
01:53:25: But you, referring to Lucia, some other kid, you will stay here for some time to come.
01:53:32: Jesus wants to use you to make me known and loved, to make me known and loved.
01:53:39: He wishes to establish the devotion to my immaculate heart throughout the world.
01:53:45: I promise salvation to whoever embraces me, end quote.
01:53:54: Wow, that is horrifying. Yes. And one thing that we have to say, at least the more traditionalist
01:54:03: Roman Catholics, those that are from the far right of Catholicism who are into the
01:54:09: Latin mass, now we disagree with them on multitudes of things and do not count them as our brethren.
01:54:16: But they, by and large, reject the Medjugorje apparitions.
01:54:24: And the Fatima apparition is what they uphold. So in other words, for Catholics to say that these apparitions could never be fake, well even a wing of their own church rejects the
01:54:38: Medjugorje apparitions. I don't know if you were aware of that. Yes.
01:54:46: I was vaguely, not to that detail, but yes. Yeah, there's not complete,
01:54:51: I know there's not complete uniformity amongst all Catholics, but yeah, you have some of you are more militant and some of you are more liberal.
01:55:00: Of course, yeah, Pope Francis is, I kind of refer to Pope Francis as the Joel Osteen of Roman Catholicism, in a sense.
01:55:07: Right. Yeah, there's not uniformity there. Well, I'd like you to just summarize now what you most want etched in our listeners' hearts and minds before the program ends.
01:55:18: Okay, Chris, sure. So, we've been talking about the overlap between water faith and Roman Catholicism.
01:55:25: They both have heretical views of the Atonement. They both have an extra source of authority other than that of Scripture.
01:55:35: They both have an emphasis on certainties and wonders, and they both teach the little God's doctrine.
01:55:41: So there's a lot of overlap between these two heretical theological systems.
01:55:47: And of course, many in the charismatic movement are just as vehemently opposed to the word of faith movement as we are.
01:55:58: Yes, there are some. Now, I would say, like this gentleman who asked a question earlier about Sam Storms and John Piper, the sad reality is that, yes,
01:56:09: Sam Storms and John Piper, men like that, Wayne Grudel, they would eschew the word of faith movement.
01:56:16: They would rightly call it heresy just as strongly as we would. The problem, though, is that those kinds of guys, that's the fringe of the charismatic movement.
01:56:28: The Sam Storms and the Wayne Grudels, that's the fringe. It's not the mainstream. That's the fringe.
01:56:33: The mainstream of the charismatic movement is everything represented by Benny Hinn to Joel Osteen to Joyce Meyer to Kenneth Copeland to Bill Johnson.
01:56:44: All of that is heresy. And sadly, that represents the great majority of the charismatic movement.
01:56:52: It's the fringe that would see these things like we do. Now, other than the
01:56:59: G3 conference that you and I will both be attending and where you will, along with 20 other speakers, be speaking, that would be
01:57:08: September 30th through October 2nd in Atlanta, Georgia, any other events that you are involved in coming up that you would like to announce?
01:57:18: Well, my preaching calendar is on my website. People can see where I am from week to week on my website, justinpeters .org.
01:57:28: But Andrew and I are hosting a trip to Israel later this year in October.
01:57:34: And Andrew, the website for that is www .israeltour2021
01:57:41: .com. That's www .israeltour2021 .com. It is about to sell out probably this week.
01:57:49: And the price will go up. If it doesn't sell out this week, the price does go up by $100 by the end of the month.
01:57:55: Also, you and I will be at Beulah Baptist Church in Winter Gordon, Florida, which is in the
01:58:02: Orlando area. That's going to be May 7th, 8th, and 9th. That is going to be our session from the
01:58:08: Flames Discernment Conference or seminar that we do. And we're also going to be together at the
01:58:14: Cruciform Conference in Indianapolis in June 3rd to the 6th.
01:58:21: And that's going to be in Indianapolis. Go to Cruciform Conference. Just search for that and you'll find it.
01:58:27: And also you can go to strivingforeternity .org or .com.
01:58:34: It doesn't matter. Oh, strivingforeternity .org or .com.
01:58:39: Well, I want to thank you both. Actually, Chris, if you want a quicker way, you can just go to sfe .bible
01:58:45: and that will get you there as well. S as in striving, F as in for,
01:58:52: E as in eternity, .bible? Yes, that will get you there as well.
01:58:59: All right. Well, I want to thank all you guys, or both of you guys, I should say, for being on the program today.
01:59:05: I want to thank those who listened today, especially our two first -time questioners,
01:59:13: Paul in the Sunshine Coast of Queensland, Australia, and also
01:59:20: Ezekiel in Nigeria. Thank you for the questions. I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater