March 15, 2021 Show with Justin Peters on “Rome & the Charismatic Movement: The Signs & Wonders Connection”

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Monday on the 15th day of

March, 2021.

And I realize now with this cold that I have, hearing my own voice in

my headphones, I should have introduced myself as Steve Brown filling in for Chris Arnzen.

I don't know if anybody of you know Steve Brown, a Reformed professor and radio

host, but I think I sound exactly like him right now.

But I am thrilled to have back on the program,

Justin Peters, one of my dear friends in ministry and also one of my very

favorite guests to interview.

He is an evangelist, a conference speaker, and founder of Justin Peters Ministries.

He's also going to be one of the speakers at the upcoming G3 conference

in late September, early October in Atlanta, Georgia, where I will be manning, once

again, an exhibitor's booth.

And today, Justin and I are going to be discussing Rome, the charismatic

movement.

I'm sorry, I said that wrong.

Rome and the charismatic movement, the signs and wonders connection, and their denial of the

sufficiency of Scripture.

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Triple Zion Radio, Justin Peters.

Hey, Chris.

Tell our listeners about Justin Peters Ministries.

Sure, Chris.

Well, I am an evangelist.

If anybody wants to find out more about Justin Peters Ministries, you can go to justinpeters

.org, justinpeters .org, and I'm sure we will remember, well,

hopefully we'll remember to announce that later on in the program as well.

Well, this program might have some folks

scratching their heads, either those that are Roman Catholic or those

that are charismatic, perhaps even especially charismatics who used to be Roman Catholic,

when we would dare to make an association between the two.

As I said at the outset, our theme today is Rome and the charismatic movement, the

signs and wonders connection, and their denial of the sufficiency of Scripture.

Well, some people may be scratching their heads because your average Roman Catholic

church parish, if you were to visit that, and I would

highly advise that nobody does, I do visit

Roman Catholic churches when I am attending a wedding or a funeral, and

I know that some of my dear friends that I know, especially it

seems those who were formerly Roman Catholic, do not even do that, but I

believe I have liberty to do that as long as I don't participate in any of the

idolatrous ceremonies and rites that are taking place.

I'm there as an observer, and for the same reason I would go to a synagogue if a Jewish

friend died, or a mosque if a Muslim friend died, or an

apostate liberal mainline Protestant church if someone who belonged to that church

died.

But anyway, if you go to, if you visit a typical local Roman Catholic

parish, unless it is a part of the charismatic Catholic renewal,

or the charismatic Catholic movement, you will likely see

something, or experience something, witness something, that is a polar opposite

worship service to what you would find in a typical charismatic or Pentecostal church.

Typically, Roman Catholic worship services are very structured,

they're very stoic and somber, they are very

quiet other than the sound of bells and the priest speaking,

they are very predictable and repetitive, and I can remember

as a Catholic growing up finding them painfully boring.

Most of the services, which tend to last about 45 minutes,

are elements of the rite of the mass, and you typically have a

very short sermon that they call a homily, that I don't think that they

typically last more than 5 or 10 minutes at the most.

And that obviously, the contents of those homilies will differ from parish to parish depending upon

who the parish priest is.

And then of course, you go to a charismatic church, and very often, most often, it is

far from any of those things, they're far from structured, they're far from liturgical in the sense

of a Roman Catholic church, they're far from stoic, they're very energetic, lively,

people are usually expressing great joy, and so on.

And not that we are opposed to those things, Justin and I, as far as joy and

enjoying new life in Christ, and celebrating what God has done for

us, but at the same time, there are connections between Rome and the

charismatic movement, and that would include the signs and wonders connection, and, as

I said, their denial of the sufficiency of Scripture.

What would you like to comment about my opening description of our theme today?

Yeah,

Chris,

I

thought...

Go ahead, keep going.

Even though we would, I think, rightly say and observe that

both the Church of Rome and the charismatic movement deny the sufficiency of Scripture,

only the Roman Catholic Church actually admits it.

They would admit, especially their scholars and

theologians and apologists, will be right in the forefront of

enthusiastically denying the formal sufficiency

of Scripture.

Whereas charismatics, I think that you would be hard -pressed to find a charismatic

or Pentecostal or a non -cessationist actually saying or

writing in words, I deny the sufficiency of the Scripture.

That would be a difference there, wouldn't it?

Yes,

and

another

difference,.

Not that all charismatic churches perform or conduct

healing services.

Some do not, although they believe in a modern -day gift of healing.

Some Pentecostal churches, I remember, unless they were doing it at some other

time during their service, I don't remember Jimmy Swagger healing people, at least not in Mass

like Benny Hinn pretends to be doing.

But your average Catholic going to a Mass

would not necessarily, unless he was, once again, at a charismatic Catholic parish

which actually conducted healing services, they're not going to be typically seeing claims

of the miraculous.

They're not going to see people getting up out of wheelchairs and dancing and stuff like that.

But they hear about these types of things typically in

faraway places.

They hear about it in Lourdes, France.

They hear about the Marian

apparitions, the so -called manifestations of

Mary in different parts of the world, some of which have taken place recently,

but the ones that are more bona fide in the

Church of Rome were those that took place earlier in the 20th century

and before.

So there's another difference that we have to clarify because of the confusion that some

Catholics may have hearing this comparison.

And also there does exist a considerable movement of

conservative Roman Catholics that are opposed to the charismatic movement within the Church of Rome.

But a lot of this is because

the Catholic Church, along with charismatics, they

seem to demand things that appeal to the senses.

Even though, as I've already been saying, you have a stark contrast between

the stoic and formal and rigidly structured Roman Catholic mass and sometimes

a wild and out -of -control charismatic service,

giving an extreme example, even though those are polar opposites, you

have in the Catholic worship services things like candles and the smell of incense and

the sound of bells.

These are things that are sensory -driven.

They're meant to appeal to the senses.

They're meant to make this event more religious.

And on one hand, I can appreciate the fact

that Catholics, even though I am not an ecumenist and I believe they have a false gospel, I can

appreciate an attempt, an effort, to not

trivialize what a worship service is, as many evangelical churches have

done, even those that are not charismatic.

There is a growing appeal or popularity of

flippancy.

There is a growing popularity of just making

everybody feeling warm, cozy and wonderful and bubbly and joyful

in absence of any comment or mention of sin and hell, if you follow what I'm saying.

Don't you think that that appeal to the senses is something that exists very much so in both segments

of the signs and wonders connection here?

Yes, Chris.

Yes, and there's more to be said about even some of what we already said, and we

will move on to some other things.

I definitely want you to give us some of these quotes that you have that allegedly came

from the lips of Mary, the mother of Jesus.

Yes.

And if anybody would like to join us with a question of your own, our email address is

chrisarnsen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N,

gmail .com.

As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence, if

you live outside the USA, and only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back with Justin Peters on Rome and the charismatic movement, the signs and wonders connection,

and their denial of the sufficiency of scripture.

Hello, dear ones.

My name is Justin Peters, and my friend Chris Arnzen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and

I are frequently blessed to share great times of fellowship with one another at conferences all over the United States.

We'll both be enjoying more fellowship together at the G3 Conference in Atlanta, Georgia, Thursday,

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Please join Chris Arnzen and me, September 30th, through October 2nd, at G3

2021.

This is Justin Peters reminding you that Christ is supreme over all.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen, if you just tuned us in.

Our guest today is my dear friend Justin Peters of Justin Peters Ministries.

We are addressing Rome and the charismatic movement, the signs and wonders connection, and their denial of the sufficiency

of scripture.

And we are, God willing, being momentarily joined by Andrew Rappaport, our

mutual friend who will co -host with me.

He is the founder of StrivingForEternity .org.

Has Andrew joined us yet?

Yes, I have.

Thank you very much, Chris, for letting me be here.

That's great.

And if you're using packing tape or something right now as you're moving your offices or

something, please stop doing that because we can hear.

I hear something weird going on in the background.

But anyway, I'd like Justin, if you could, to

give us some of these Marian quotes, these alleged quotes of Mary from various Marian

apparitions that you wanted to reveal to our audience.

Yeah, Chris, and just in case we have to be with...

I guess a similarity between what you just read, those very

blasphemous, heretical words that were placed in the mouth of Mary never came from

her mouth in reality.

No.

The similarity where you would find something anywhere or anything remotely similar

in the charismatic world would be in the Word of Faith movement where Kenneth Copeland

actually claimed that God, the Father, told him that he could

have died for the sins of mankind.

Do you recall that?

Do you recall that?

Absolutely.

Oh, it was Jesus, not the Father.

Yes, Jesus.

Okay.

Jesus appeared to be

not

welcome...

They also not only are escalating, elevating, Kenneth Copeland, or he, I

should say, Kenneth Copeland is elevating himself in a very blasphemous and heretical

way.

He is diminishing Christ, because the Word of Faith movement actually teaches that Jesus Christ needed to be born

again, and he was born again in hell after he died, correct?

Questions before we go to our midway break.

Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, it sounds, Justin, like the claims that they're making of Mary sound very similar

to...

Roman Catholic, and arranged many Roman Catholic versus Evangelical Protestant debates, and

for some reason that never came up.

I mean, that's right out of Mormonism, you know?

I mean, that's the exact teaching that we see within Mormonism as well.

And actually, Justin, I mean, maybe you could speak to this briefly, but this is really rooted back in the

Garden.

This all comes from what happened in Genesis chapter 3,

and maybe that's why we see it in

so many different... like God.

I think give another clarification, because people may be tuning in late, and didn't hear my other

clarification or my caveat.

Number one, I believe all three men here believe that

there will be Charismatics and Catholics in heaven with us,

especially when you're speaking of Catholics, those that actually believe the true gospel

in spite of the damning gospel that is dogmatically taught in the Church of Rome, because

there are Catholics that do not follow in lockstep with the dogmas of

Rome, sometimes for better, sometimes for worse.

And also, we are not lumping Charismatics all in the same lump.

I have had Charismatics as guests on this show, where I was affirming everything that they were saying.

Maybe they were talking about a specific book they wrote that I believed in from cover to cover.

So I want to make it clear that we're not saying that all folks who are Charismatic, and

all folks who claim to be Catholic are going to hell.

And we're also not saying all Charismatics believe in what the Word of Faith heretics

we are quoting, or that Justin is quoting.

And not all Catholics believe some of the very bizarre things that

their so -called saints have said.

And so you're also going to have moments during the show where Charismatics are in polar opposition

to Catholic teaching that is cited, and vice versa.

You're going to have Catholics being very opposed to things they hear from

the other side of this equation, the Roman, the Charismatic movement, the signs and wonders connection.

But we have to go to our midway break right now.

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We will continue our discussion on Rome and the Charismatic movement, the signs and wonders connection, right after

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Before I return to Justin Peters and Andrew Rappaport for our discussion

on Rome and the charismatic movement, the signs and wonders connection and their denial of the

sufficiency of scripture I have a couple of important announcements to make.

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And also folks, if you are not a member of a local Bible -believing church no matter where on the planet

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Find a good church that is faithful to the Scriptures.

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That's also the email address where you can send in a question to Justin Peters on our theme today, Rome and the Charismatic

Movement The Signs and Wonders Connection.

And before we go back to our discussion, Justin I am thrilled that once again

the G3 conference is advertising on my show.

I'm thrilled that I will be manning an exhibitor's booth for Iron Sharpens Iron Radio there again.

And you are one of the speakers there.

I am so thrilled.

Why don't you tell us just a little bit about this conference?

Yes,

actually.

September

30th.

Through October 2nd in Atlanta, Georgia Thursday through Saturday.

And the speakers include Stephen Lawson, Foddy Balcom, Paul Washer, John

MacArthur, Hensworth Jonas.

If you've never heard Hensworth Jonas preach before, you've got to make sure that you hear him preach at some

point, even if you go to sermon audio.

But it will never be the same if you are not hearing him live.

He is a profoundly gifted man that is not quite that well known right now,

but I am very confident he will be.

Just like my other dear friend, who is also a mutual friend of Hensworth, Conrad M. Bayway.

And I am looking forward to seeing both of them.

Conrad is also going to be there.

Joel Beeky, another one of my favorite speakers of all time and writers.

And the list goes on and on.

You can hear the ads that we have been playing every day.

We list some of the speakers and all the details.

Just go to G3conference .com to register or find out more about the conference.

G3conference .com.

Before we go to some of the issues I know that you are itching to

address about this theme that we have before us.

Rome and the charismatic movement.

There is another similarity, especially when you are talking about the Word of Faith Pentecostals.

There is something in the history of the Church of Rome that

many people might be surprised still exists.

It did not die away with the coming and going of Martin Luther

who protested the sale of indulgences.

They still remain with us.

In fact every time you purchase what is called a mass card if you are Roman Catholic

of course and you purchase one of these cards for someone you love for a whole host of occasions.

They will typically include a certain order of nuns that will be praying

for you and they are praying to limit your time in

purgatory.

Well aren't the Word of Faith movement heretics in

their sales pitches, their fund driving campaigns very

much mirroring, even if it is unintentionally, the sale of indulgences that

Tetzel became infamous for terrifying people that if they don't

give money to the Church that they will spend a longer time in purgatory and their loved ones will spend

a longer time in purgatory.

And that in fact is how that giant castle in the Vatican

St. Peter's Basilica that is how that building was purchased

or should I say built.

The funds that came from the sale of indulgences is how the

Basilica was built.

But aren't there great similarities there even if a Word of Faith Pentecostal might deny

purgatory as a doctrine?

The similarities are unquestionable, aren't they?

Without a doubt.

The Word of Faith actually trumps the heresies of Rome in this area because they actually

do, in a sense, believe in purgatory but the only person that ever was there

was Jesus Christ.

They believe that He went to Hell and became the first born -again

man there after being tormented in Hell.

Now, why did they believe that?

Why did they, number one, believe that was necessary for Him to be born -again and why did they even believe it was

possible?

Do they believe that He was not perfectly sinless and was not the God -man when He walked

the earth and walked carrying the cross to Golgotha to be crucified?

Don't they believe that He was the God -man during that whole time including His conception in Mary's

womb and the virgin birth and so on?

Let me quote that one more time.

I'm going to read a couple of questions before we return to questions of my own for you.

We have Paul from the Sunshine Coast in Queensland, Australia,

who says, please, sir, can you define what the Bible means by the Gospel?

As I mentioned to you earlier before the show started, there has been some banter on the

internet amongst Charismatics who are claiming who themselves

are also soteriologically Reformed but their pneumatology would be

non -cessationist, charismatic, whatever else way you'd like to describe that.

Continuationist, continuous.

But they have claimed, these Reformed Charismatics, or at least one of them in the conversation,

was claiming that you deny the classic Reformed auto salutos.

That regeneration must precede conversion, it must precede faith, because man could not

summon up from his dead stone -cold heart a faith that

pleases God without first being born again, being regenerate.

Would you say that you.

Affirm

that?

Proceed.

From a truly regenerate person.

In other words, the regeneration comes first, but instantly the signs of a regenerate person, faith and

repentance, flow from that regenerate.

Heart.

Yes.

I hope that that is clear enough.

Do you have a question?

Yes.

Let me make a comment on that, because many people are very confused when it comes to this topic.

And a very helpful way that I have found for people to understand it is that

both sides end up agreeing

or intending that God wrote through, or God gets 100 of the

credit.

God did

the work, but

theologically

God did those good works.

In our human thinking, we're doing them.

And then apply that to regeneration.

I find that that makes it easier for people.

Theologically, I think that usually

helps people when they think about it in these other doctrines to see that there's this similarity.

But the people in question calling into question Justin's view

would have already been Reformed.

They are Reformed charismatics who are saying that he denied what you just said.

So, in other words, we were not explaining this to Arminian listeners to try to get them to understand what it means.

These were Reformed people who are saying that Justin is not truly Reformed.

That's where that was coming from.

And, of course, in Romans 8, verses 8,

those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

So, therefore, obviously, if faith is

something that pleases God, faith that is saving faith, if it pleases God, how can we have that

if we are in the flesh?

We must be born again first.

And, of course, that occurs instantly.

The sign of faith and repentance flow instantly from the

regenerate heart.

I'll read one more question before we go back to some other questions of my own.

We have Ezekiel in Nigeria who says, How could you

uphold the Holy Spirit but assert that some of his gifts have ceased?

I'm a Nigerian that can name genuine charismatic continuationists

in America that I know.

Carter Conlon, who took over from David Wilkerson, both are genuine charismatics.

Jim Cimbala of Brooklyn Tabernacle is genuine.

John Piper, Sam Storms, Wayne Grudem, Francis Chan, David Platt, Terry Virgo,

etc., are all genuine.

I will name some Nigerians you may Google search to confirm their genuineness.

I'm going to skip over that because I don't need to do that.

We must not always take wrong people as the yardstick of measurement.

Okay, well there's a couple of things there.

First is he says, How can you uphold the Holy Spirit but assert that some of his gifts

have ceased?

I mean, all members of the Trinity have done things in the past that they do not do today.

Isn't that true?

Justin?

Yes, absolutely, Chris.

That's an argument that I hear quite often.

There

have

never

been.

Any confirmed resurrections from the dead.

There have never been any confirmed restored limbs that have been completely severed off

and other appendages on the body that have been severed off.

There's never been one confirmation of a limb or a nose or an ear being miraculously

placed back on the human being.

You know, you could go on and on.

They're not doing exactly the same things that were occurring in Jesus' day in the apostolic era.

No, they're not.

Even they acknowledge it.

When it comes to the gift of tongues, so -called, if it is not the gift that

occurred in the apostolic era where people were speaking foreign languages they never

learned to speak prior to the miracle occurring, if it is just

gibberish, for lack of a better term, sorry for offending anybody who affirms modern -day

tongues, but how could that be a sign when it is so easily faked?

Their version of tongues.

It is not easily faked to speak a language that you never before learned

and therefore that would be a sign.

That would be a miraculous sign.

Saying gibberish doesn't fit the bill for a

sign because anybody could do that.

Some do it better than others.

But it's something that could be faked easily.

A little tiny child could fake it easily.

How could that possibly be a sign?

And it is interesting that some of the, in fact I think, all of the major Pentecostal denominations

insist that tongues is the sign of the gift of the baptism of the Holy

Spirit.

Am I not right?

Yes,

that's

right.

In fact, I've got to introduce you to him.

John Sampson is a dear friend of mine who does a couple of commercials for me.

He was a pastor in the Word of Faith movement and a TBN talk show host

in the Word of Faith movement and now he is a complete cessationist and Reformed Baptist.

Yeah,

that's

right.

Exactly what?

There's even a Mormon version of it.

Oh, yeah.

Mormon

speaking,

unintelligible.

It's a biblical gift.

One more question that I'll read from a listener.

Grady, a very faithful and loyal and generous listener in Ashboro, North Carolina.

And Grady says, Greetings, brothers.

What is the best way to share the gospel with Roman Catholics?

I have a cousin that's Catholic and every time I try to share, he says that he's a Christian and knows

there's differences between evangelicals and Catholics but he's content with his beliefs.

That's pretty much most people when you're trying to evangelize them.

And it's interesting how although this Catholic calls himself a Christian,

it's quite fascinating that many Catholics will differentiate.

They'll say, I'm a Roman Catholic and my brother's a Christian.

You know, something like that.

You know what I'm saying?

They actually put them in two different categories.

But, if you could, before we go to the last break and continue with some of your other questions.

Yes.

I

would,

a

quick

way for

people to know, because some Catholics will deny that the

Catholics...

And of course,

anybody.

Listening, if they look up the Council of Trent's dogmas, it makes it clear

that we are not saved by grace through faith alone.

And they make it clear that works are not just a necessary evidence or

fruit of a saved person, like we believe.

They make it very clear in the Council of Trent, which are dogmas that must always be believed

by Catholics.

It's not one of those things that can change.

Like, for instance, celibacy in the priesthood.

They acknowledge that priests were once married and even popes and they admit that there is a

possibility that could return.

But that is a difference.

That's a discipline.

It's not a dogma.

So, therefore...

And wouldn't you say, both Justin and Andrew, that the Book of Galatians is an

ideal place to go?

I go there, even when I'm trying to convince my ecumenical Protestant friends

that Paul took it extremely seriously to add any work to

faith in order for one to be considered a true Christian.

So much so that he said that the Judaizers, who probably believed everything that he believed, except for the

addition of circumcision.

He said the Judaizers had no gospel at all, that they should be accursed,

and on and on we could go with the harsh language.

Isn't that an excellent place to be digging in our heels?

The Book of Galatians?

I would say yes.

It's in vain.

It wasn't necessary.

We have to go to our final break, and if you want to join us, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail dot com.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back after these messages from our sponsors.

This is Pastor Bill Sousa of Grace Church at Franklin, here in the beautiful state of Tennessee.

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Host and executive director of Grace to You, the media ministry of John MacArthur.

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The theme this year is Christ is supreme over all.

My friend Chris Arnzen and I will be joined by several of our other friends, including Voddie Balcom, Justin

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More than 20 other speakers will be joining us, and the lineup this year includes my pastor, John MacArthur.

For details, visit G3conference .com.

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Chris Arnzen and I hope to see you September 30th through October 2nd at G3

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This is Phil Johnson reminding you that Christ is supreme over.

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When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the New American

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Welcome back and our guest today is Justin Peters and our co -host has

also been Andrew Rappaport and we are wrapping up things.

And Justin you wanted to quote other words allegedly from the lips of Mary in

Roman Catholic Marian apparitions or in N apparition.

Yes.

And one

thing

that we

have

to

say.

At least the more traditionalist Roman Catholics, those that are from the

far right of Catholicism who are into the Latin mass now we disagree with

them on multitudes of things and do not count them as our brethren.

But they by and large reject the Medjugorje

apparitions and the Fatima apparition is what they uphold.

So in other words for Catholics to say that these apparitions could never be fake.

Well even a wing of their own church rejects the Medjugorje

apparitions.

I don't know if you are aware of that.

Well

I'd like

you

to just

summarize now.

What you most want etched in our listeners hearts and minds before the program ends.

Okay Chris.

And of course many in the charismatic movement are just as vehemently opposed to the

word of faith movement as we are.

Yes there are some.

In

the

G3

conference

that

you

and

I.

Will both be attending where you will along with 20 other speakers be speaking.

That would be September 30th through October 2nd in Atlanta, Georgia.

Any other events that you are involved in coming up that you'd like to announce?

My preaching calendar is on my website.

The website for that is IsraelTour2021 .com.

That's IsraelTour2021 .com.

It is about to sell out probably.

I will be at Beulah Baptist Church Winter Garden, Florida which

is in the Orlando area.

That's going to be May 7th.

I will be at the cruciform conference in Indianapolis.

Also you can go to strivingforeternity

.org.

Or .com.

It doesn't matter.

Great.

Strivingforeternity .org or .com.

I want to thank you both.

Actually Chris if you want a quicker way you can just go to sfe .bible and that will get you there as well.

S as in striving F as in for E as in eternity strivingforeternity

.bible.

Yep. That will get you there as well.

I want to thank all you guys or both of you guys I should say for being on the

program today.

I want to thank those who listened today especially our first our two first time

questioners Paul in the Sunshine Coast

of Queensland, Australia and also Ezekiel in Nigeria.

Thank you for the questions.

I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.