Perseverance (White vs Akin)

This evening we will be debating the proposition that all true believers are predestined by God to persevere in their faith to the end and be saved and we have two very able gentlemen to be debating that.

Taking the affirmative position is James White who is a scholar in residence in the College of Christian Studies at Grand Canyon University. He holds a master's degree in theology from Fuller Theological Seminary in Pasadena, California.

He is an ordained Baptist minister and he is the author of seven books including The Fatal Flaw, Answers to Catholic Claims, Justification by Faith, Letters to a Mormon Elder, and the King James Only Controversy and as director of Alpha and Omega Ministries which is a Christian apologetics ministry based in Phoenix, James has engaged in numerous public debates against the leading Roman Catholic apologists all across the nation on subjects such as soul scripture, the mass, the papacy, and justification by faith.

In fact he has been identified as the best critic of Roman Catholicism in the United States today by none other than Patrick Madrid of Catholic Answers. James how are you doing today? I'm doing just fine how are you guys doing?

Taking the negative position is James Aiken, now James Aiken is an apologist for Catholic Answers and is a contributor to This Rock magazine and he is also a convert from conservative Protestant Calvinism.

James how are you doing this evening? Oh I'm doing just fine. Okay so we've got two James that are going to be discussing this subject tonight and the format is as follows, we are going to give James White the first twelve minutes to present his position and then we are going to take a break and that will be followed by James Aiken will be taking the next twelve minutes to present his position and with no further ado we will go ahead and get started with the first of our debaters this evening James White, James you have twelve minutes from right now.

James White’s Opening Argument for Perseverance of the Saints

Thank you Lee. Thomas Brooks once said Christ is to be answerable for all those that are given to him at the last day and therefore we need not doubt but that he will certainly employ all the power of his Godhead to secure and save all those that he must be accountable for.

Our debate today will be I'm afraid a little difficult to follow, the reason for this is twofold. First we have little time and hence can hardly present a full defense of our positions in the time allotted but most importantly the issue has had to be framed in such a way as to allow for the Roman Catholic position to be fairly represented.

When I was first contacted regarding this debate the desire was to debate the topic of free will versus predestination, however as we could not find a Roman Catholic who wanted to defend that particular perspective we have had to narrow the focus a good bit.

Mr. Aiken was the fourth in a series of individuals we contacted and he agreed to discuss the issue with us today. Mr. Aiken wrote an article for This Rock magazine entitled Uprooting Calvin's Tulip or its other title of the magazine was A Tiptoe Through Tulip, in either case the article was designed to explain the famous five points of Calvinism and to help prospective converts understand what of their former faith can translate into Roman theology.

The immediate problem one encounters is the fact that Mr. Aiken acknowledges that a Roman Catholic can believe all sorts of different things in this area, Thomas, Molinus and Augustinians can argue with one another all seemingly with the blessing of Rome which though an allegedly infallible guide can't seem to make up its mind on such important issues as this.

One might well consider the worth of infallible guide who upon coming to a fork in the road that leads in two completely different directions tells you can go either direction with impunity and arrive at the same place.

The fact that Mr. Aiken asserts that Roman Catholics can indeed believe in unconditional election forced us to get a little more specific. The listener may well ask, if a Roman Catholic can believe in unconditional election, how do sacraments, penance, purgatory and all the rest of the Roman sacramental system fit in?

These things sneak in, I would say, through Mr. Aiken's assertion that while one can be predestined to initial salvation, this is not the same as saying that one is predestined to final salvation. I quote from Mr. Aiken's article in the September 1993 This Rock magazine pages 11 through 12, quote, Calvinists assume perseverance of the saints is entailed by the idea of predestination.

If one is predestined to be saved, does it not fall he must persevere to the end? This involves a confusion about what people are predestined to. Is it predestination to initial salvation or to final salvation?

The two are not the same. A person might be predestined to one, but this does not mean he is predestined necessarily to the other. One must define which kind of predestination is being discussed, end quote.

Now, as in so many other areas, Rome has come up with various ways of complicating the issue here by introducing different kinds of predestination. This opens up a huge chasm where the sacramental system of Rome can exist while paying lip service to the biblical teaching of predestination.

I offer one more quote from Mr. Aiken to make sure we understand his position. Quote, if one is talking about predestination to initial salvation, then the fact that a person will come to God does not of itself mean he will stay with God.

If one is talking about predestination to final salvation, then a predestined person will stay with God, but this does not mean the predestined are the only ones who experience initial salvation. Some might genuinely come to God because they were predestined to initial salvation and then genuinely leave because they were not predestined to final salvation.

Either way, predestination to initial salvation does not entail predestination to final salvation, end quote. Later in his article, Mr. Aiken identifies those who are predestined to persevere as the elect, hence you have the elect who will persevere, but you also have this other class of true Christians who are not predestined to persevere.

These individuals may or may not make it. Their fate is in their own hands, or so it would seem. Now given this scenario, we must focus not upon the classic passages that are used either to assert the perseverance of the saints or eternal security, nor upon those that allegedly prove the opposite.

Instead, two issues must be addressed. First, what does the Bible say God's purpose is in predestination? Included under this topic must be an identification of the goal of predestination, as well as the question, does the Bible differentiate between predestination to initial and final salvation?

The second issue that must be looked at is this, is there such a thing as a true Christian who is not of the elect? Are there those who sort of stumble into a saved state, or who may or may not remain in it?

These are the questions we must answer. There are a number of passages in the Bible that speak of God's predestining men unto salvation. The two clearest are found in Ephesians 1 and Romans 9. Time, of course, precludes our reading of these passages, but we must note, with respect to our first issue, that Ephesians 1 plainly asserts that God's ultimate purpose in predestination is the praise of his glory.

But the passage is also plain in asserting that he predestines the elect unto full and complete salvation. Verse 4 says that those who are predestined will be holy and blameless before him. Verse 5 says they will be adopted as sons.

Later in verses 13 through 14, the Spirit is given them as a pledge, and as an indication that they belong to God. Obviously, the predestination under consideration here is only to final and full salvation.

There is not the slightest hint of some other kind of predestination, a partial predestination to partial holiness or partial salvation. In fact, of course, one will search in vain throughout the whole Bible for any reference to predestination to only initial, not final, salvation.

How else could it be, in light of the fact that the one saved is united with Christ and the salvation which is his is complete, full, and infallible, for its author is none other than Jesus Christ? But here we enter into one of the many areas where Rome's view of the Gospel differs markedly from our own.

For let us always keep in mind that from Rome's view, one can be in Christ, justified, and yet die impure, having to suffer the temporal punishment of one's sins in purgatory for an indeterminate period of time prior to gaining entrance into the presence of God.

Such a concept is far removed from the biblical viewpoint of the full and sufficient salvation made available for God's people by the sufficient Savior, Jesus Christ. Now with reference to the idea that we have two different kinds of Christians, the elect and the non-elect, the Bible knows nothing of such a concept.

Paul uses the bare term, the elect, or the chosen, as a description of all Christians in such passages as Romans 1, 7, 1 Corinthians 1, 2, and 24, and Jude does the same in his epistle. The idea of a non-elect Christian is simply an oxymoron.

When Paul wrote to the Thessalonians, he could assume their understanding of this issue. In 1 Thessalonians 1, 4, Paul writes,. For we know, brothers loved by God, that God has chosen you. Are we to assume with the Jehovah's Witnesses that Paul was writing only to the upper class of Christians here, and that his words were not to be applied to the lower class of uncalled, unelected Christians?

One would hardly think so. But of all the passages in the New Testament that lays to rest the idea presented by Mr. Aiken, Jesus' own words in John 6 and 10 are the most striking. Mr. Aiken is well aware of these passages as he attempted to get around them in his article through the use of the old out-of-context argument.

Such simply will not avail, however, in light of the plain meaning of the words of the Lord Himself. In John 10, 26 we are told that certain of the Jews did not believe because they were not of Christ's sheep.

It follows, then, that only Christ's sheep will truly believe in Christ. Are Mr. Aiken's non-elect Christians Christ's sheep or not? If they are Christ's sheep, then Christ himself says that he gives eternal life to them, and they shall never perish, nor shall any man snatch them out of his hand.

If they are not Christ's sheep, they will never truly believe in the first place. The listener should keep in mind a question for Mr. Aiken's position. Are really his non-elect, predestined only to initial salvation Christians, Christ's sheep or not?

The Lord Jesus claimed in John 10, 14 that he knows his sheep. There is a personal relationship that exists between the shepherd and his sheep, yet if Mr. Aiken says that these non-elect Christians are truly Christ's sheep, and yet they can cease being Christ's sheep and become his enemies, how can it be that the Lord Jesus, when judging them as seen in Matthew 7, 23 says, I never knew you.

Obviously then, one who is one of his sheep cannot be lost and hear the words of Matthew 7, 23. But if Mr. Aiken says that these non-elect Christians are not Christ's sheep, how can anyone think they are truly Christians to begin with?

Jesus said that only his sheep hear his voice and follow him, and he specifically taught that the reason his Jewish enemies could not hear his voice was because they did not belong to God, John 8, 47.

Just as striking are the Lord's words in John 6, for in both places, John 6 and John 10, the Lord addresses the same issue. John 6, 37 tells us that all that the Father gives the Son will, in fact, come to the Son.

Are Mr. Aiken's non-elect Christians given by the Father to the Son? Jesus says that those who are so given to him and who come to him will never be cast out. This is the Father's will for the Son, and how can it be possible that the Son would ever fail to do the Father's will?

Obviously, those who are under discussion here are those who are indeed predestined, and that obviously to final salvation, which is the only kind of predestination there is. But Jesus goes on to close the door on Mr. Aiken's position when he says, "...no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up on the last day.".

John 6, 44. No matter which direction Mr. Aiken may wish to take this passage, it simply doesn't fit his system. Jesus says that no man is able in and of himself to even come unto Christ, so much for the much-vaunted free will of man.

The drawing of the Father is required. In the context, this drawing is exactly what Jesus has referred to as the Father's giving of men to himself in verse 37. Not all men are so drawn, only those who are given by the Father to the Son.

We have already seen that these are the elect, those predestined to final and full salvation. But Jesus says these are the only ones who are enabled to truly come to him. It is these and these alone that he raises up at the last day.

But where are Mr. Aiken's non-elect, predestined only to initial salvation, yet true Christians? If he says they are here and were indeed drawn by the Father to Christ, then Christ promises to raise them up at the last day.

But Mr. Aiken says that such a promise of perseverance isn't part of their package. What's more, we can plainly see that these who are drawn are those given by the Father to the Son, which are plainly the elect.

So we can see that Mr. Aiken's position fails to survive the test of biblical exegesis. Now, Mr. Aiken was quick to dismiss John 10 and John 6 by saying that the context of both passages is his particular understanding of John 15 verses 1 -6.

How Mr. Aiken can take two passages from completely different contexts that come before John 15 and say that their plain testimony must be dismissed because of his particular misunderstanding of that passage, I don't know.

But this is surely not a sound practice. While I can provide a meaningful and consistent interpretation of Jesus' illustration of the vine and the branches that does not violate the position I've presented thus far, can Mr. Aiken provide the same kind of exegetically based, contextually sound, and logically consistent interpretation of John 6 and 10?

That's the question we must ask. So in summation, we see that here again we encounter a doctrinal belief in which Rome forces her apologists to engage in unnatural, strained, and acontextual interpretation to maintain what is, in fact, a traditional position.

The Bible teaches that God predestines men unto full and complete salvation, so there is only one kind of salvation in the Bible, the perfect, complete, whole, and gracious salvation provided by the perfect Savior, Jesus Christ.

Thank you very much, James. If you just tuned in, you're listening to a debate on predestination with James White, who is affirming the Protestant position, the classic historic Protestant position, that all true believers are predestined to persevere in their faith to the end and be saved.

And right after this break, we're going to hear from James Aiken, who is defending the Catholic position, which denies that such predestination is, in fact, what the Bible teaches. And we'll be taking calls during our second hour, so be listening and get your questions ready.

You're listening to Christian Answers Live. I'm Lee Meckley, along with Jim Tungate, and right after this break, we're going to be hearing from James Aiken on the Catholic position of predestination, what Catholicism teaches.

And, by the way, James Aiken is a former conservative Calvinist, so certainly he will be able to ably defend his position, I believe, and keep listening and make up your own mind. We'll be back right after this.

Christian Answers offers many resources for the Christian believer, as well as for those with sincere questions. Have you ever wondered where the Roman Catholic Church stands on the issue of salvation?

The following excerpt is from the Christian Answers video, Debate with a Monsignor, between Christian Answers spokesman Rob Zins and Diocese of Austin, Texas spokesman Monsignor Ed Jordan of St. Teresa's Catholic Church.

Dale Deloney is the moderator.

Okay, so you don't see baptism as essential, at all. I mean, it is very, very important. But I can't see condemning to hell all the men and women who have lived since Christ on continents that have never even heard of Jesus, because nobody preaches to them.

They're not, they don't feel comfortable with that. When Paul said the Romans were ascended to the downed grace, they're more abound. Does that mean other religions, such as Islam? Sure. And, uh, that worship Allah?

Since they haven't heard about Christ, they would still go to heaven? Yeah. Pagan, uh, pagan worshipers, also? That worship idols and stuff like that, that haven't heard about Christ? That are living in good faith.

To their idols?

To whatever. Call Christian Answers today to obtain a free resource list on this subject and many others. Call 512 -218 -8022. That's 512 -218 -8022. Alright, Christian Answers, Post Office Box 144441, Austin, Texas, 78714.

James Akin’s Opening Argument for Predestination to Grace and Glory

Good evening, welcome back to Christian Answers Live. I'm Lee Meckley, along with Jim Tungate. And, uh, we are having a debate this afternoon, or this evening, both hours, between James White and James Aiken.

And we are discussing the concept of predestination that was rooted in the Reformation. The position taken by James White is the Protestant position that predestination, or that all true believers are predestined to persevere in their faith to the end and be saved.

And the negative of that position is being taken by James Aiken. James, if you are ready, we'll go ahead and get started. And you will have 12 minutes from right now.

Thank you very much. To keep us from being distracted by side issues tonight, I will be assuming the position of the great Catholic teachers, Augustine and Aquinas, that predestination is based unconditionally on God's sovereign choice alone.

Since this is also Mr. White's position, it should keep us from being drawn off course. All Christians have some version of the doctrine of predestination. They have to, because the Greek term for it appears in four Bible passages.

Acts 4 .28, Romans 8 .29 and 30, 1 Corinthians 2 .7, and Ephesians 1 .3 -12. In Ephesians 1, the word unmistakably refers to what has historically been termed predestination to grace, or predestination to enter the graces of the Christian life.

Paul states in Ephesians 1 .5 that God predestined us in love to be his sons. Since the time we became God's sons was when we became Christians and entered the graces of the Christian life, this is an unmistakable reference to predestination to grace or to initial salvation.

But in Romans 8, the word clearly refers to what has historically been termed predestination to glory, predestination to enter the glories of heaven. In Romans 8 .29, Paul states that we were predestined to be conformed to the image of his son.

And in 1 Corinthians 15 .49, Paul tells us when we will be conformed to the image of his son. At the general resurrection, at the second coming, when we will bear the image of the man of heaven. In the same way, 1 John 3 .2 says that it does not yet appear what we shall be, but we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

This is the time when we will enter the glories of heaven. Therefore, in Ephesians 1, we have a reference to predestination to grace, and in Romans 8, we have a reference to predestination to glory. Mr. White's claim that there is no exegetical distinction between the two thus goes up in smoke.

It is simply linguistically false. The word predestined is used in scripture for both. Sometimes we are said to be predestined to enter the Christian life, and sometimes we are said to be predestined to enter final glory.

The term is thus used in both ways, so Mr. White's assertion that there is no exegetical difference between the two is simply exegetical foolishness. The real question, the one we are here to debate, is whether the first kind of predestination entails the second.

Are all who are predestined to come to God in grace also predestined to stay with God till glory? No. The Bible clearly and unambiguously teaches that some are chosen to come to God who are not chosen to stay with God.

True Christians can fall away and become lost. Some Christians are elected to come, but they may not be elected to stay. Some Christians who live in insulated Dallas Theological Seminary circles or insulated Westminster Confession of Faith circles may find this an unusual and novel teaching, but it is the teaching of the vast majority of Christians, including the vast majority of Protestants, the remarks of the very kind hosts on that matter notwithstanding.

The only people who dispute it are Presbyterians, Baptists, and those who have been influenced by Presbyterians and Baptists. It is also the historic teaching of Christianity. Nobody denied that a Christian can fall away for the first 1 ,500 years of Christian history.

Every single one of the Church Fathers taught it, as did all of the so-called Calvinistic theologians before Calvin, such as St. Augustine, Thomas Aquinas, and Martin Luther, who all held to an unconditional view of predestination and who all taught that a true Christian can fall away.

For example, in the 21st chapter of his book, The Gift of Perseverance, St. Augustine wrote, Of two pious men, why to the one should be given perseverance to the end, and to the other it should not be given?

Had not both become justified men, and both been renewed by the labor of regeneration? In respect of all these things they were of us. Nevertheless, they had not been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things.

Bear in mind that this was the old Augustine, not the young Augustine. He wrote this in 429, the year before he died. It was Calvin who first denied the historic Christian teaching that a true Christian can fall.

Check that out for yourself. I did. I searched multiple books and called half a dozen Calvinist seminaries, talking to their systematic theology and church history professors, and no one could name anyone before Calvin who taught this thesis.

This is a problem even for those who claim to take their teachings exclusively from Scripture. For how could a doctrine this important, if true, remain completely undiscovered for the first 1500 years of Christian history?

Other important doctrines have always been known through Christian history. Christians always knew, even when heretics denied it, that Jesus Christ was God. So it turns out that when Christians never knew that a true Christian can fall away, and then suddenly a millennium and a half later someone starts claiming it, one has to ask who is passing on the teachings of the apostles and who is teaching the novel heresy?

To put it bluntly, how on earth could God in heaven fail to let the true Christians of three quarters of church history know that they could never fall away? How could he let them believe that they could fall away and be damned if it wasn't true?

This is an unambiguously black mark, a big black mark, against the hypothesis. And matters are no better when we turn to Scripture, for when we examine the Bible we find that the hypothesis that no true Christian can fall away is totally and unambiguously crushed by the weight of biblical evidence.

In fact, I will only be able to bring out a tiny few of the dozens of passages showing that a true Christian can fall away. If you would like a list of more than 80 of them, give me a call here at Catholic Answers or email me at jamesacon at aol .com and I'll be happy to send it to you.

For example, in Luke 8 .13, Jesus tells us that there are some who receive the word with joy, but because they have no root. They believe, they do believe, but in time of temptation fall away. Jesus says so.

In Luke 12 .42 -46, Jesus tells us that you can start out as a faithful and wise steward who he puts in charge, then begin to eat and drink and get drunk, and then when Jesus returns be punished and assigned a place with the unfaithful.

You can end up being damned with the unfaithful, even though you started out as a faithful and wise steward who Jesus himself put in charge. In Luke 15 .1 -32, Jesus tells us the parable of the prodigal son, in which one of the sons of the father leaves home, is twice described by his father as being dead, and then returns home and is spoken of by the father as being alive again.

So you can be a genuine son of the father, then leave the father and become dead, and then return to the father and become alive again. In John 15 .1 -10, Jesus says that he is divine and we are the branches, and that if we do not bear fruit, the father will cut us out of him, and we will wither up and finally be burned in the fire.

So you can be in Jesus and yet be cut out of Jesus by the father and thrown into the fire. In Romans 11 .20 -33, Paul says that Jews were broken off of the tree of God's grace because of unbelief, and that we retain our position in it only by believing, so we should be afraid, because God will not spare us if we disbelieve any more than he spared the natural branches.

So you can be in the tree of God's grace by faith in the Messiah, then quit believing, be cut out, and return to believing and be grafted in again. In 1 Corinthians 15 .1 -2, Paul tells his audience that they will be saved by the gospel if they hold it fast, unless they believed in vain.

So they did believe the gospel, Paul says so, but if they don't hold the gospel fast, then their belief in the gospel will be rendered vain. In Galatians 5 .1 -4, Paul says that anyone who is circumcised becomes severed from Christ and has fallen from grace.

He means exactly what he says. You can be in Christ, then be severed from him and fall from grace. That's simply what Paul says. In Hebrews 3 .12, the author tells us, Take care, brethren, lest in any of you be an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God.

So you can fall away from the living God and must take care that you don't do so. In Hebrews 6 .4 -6, the author tells us that those who have once been enlightened and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit can fall away, and thus they crucify the Son of God again and hold him up to contempt by going back to Judaism and saying Jesus was a false Messiah who deserved to be crucified.

Yet at one time they were enlightened with Jesus' message and had become partakers of the Holy Spirit, the sure sign of a true Christian. In Hebrews 10 .23 -29, the author tells us, Let us hold fast our confession of faith, the confession of our hope, without wavering.

For if we continually sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sin, but a fearful prospect of judgment and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries.

How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who is spurned of the Son of God and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified? But Mr. White claims that if you were ever sanctified by Christ's blood, that it is impossible for you not to hold fast to your confession, and impossible for you to go on sinning willfully, and impossible for you to enter the fury of fire which will consume Christ's adversaries.

In 2 Peter 2 .20 -22, Peter tells us,. If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than at the beginning.

It would have been better for them to not have known the way of righteousness than to have known it and to have turned their backs on the sacred commandment that was passed on to them. It has happened to them, according to the true proverb, a dog returns to its vomit and a sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud.

So you can escape the defilements of the world by knowing Jesus Christ, yet return to them and become entangled. You can be washed from your sins and yet return to wallowing in the mud, proving that you are not one of the elect, not one of those predestined to glory.

People say this actually happened to people in his day, declaring that it has happened to them, according to the true proverb.

Okay, that's James Akin, who is taking the Catholic position that predestination is not necessarily to persevere in the faith to the end. He is debating James White, who is taking the Protestant position that all true believers are predestined to persevere in the faith.

We're going to go ahead and take a break. We're running a little bit short on time, and when we come back from this break, we'll be hearing from both of these gentlemen again on their positions. You're listening to Christian Answers Live.

I'm Lee Meckley, along with Jim Tungate. We will be taking our calls in our second hour, so get your questions ready. And we'll be back right after this.

R.C. Sproul on Justification by Faith Alone and the Gospel

Dr. R .C. Sproul's sermon, Only One Gospel. At least the Roman Catholic Church understood in the 16th century that the doctrine of justification touches the very heart of the gospel, and I think implicitly at least they agreed with Luther that justification is the article upon which the church stands itself.

Sadly, they disagreed with Luther's understanding of what the gospel is, but at least they had the courage of their convictions and said, Luther is preaching a different gospel. Calvin is preaching a different gospel.

The Protestants, with their doctrine of justification by faith alone, are teaching a different gospel. Therefore, they are under the anathema of God. And if Ryan was right in the 16th century, beloved, then you can be sure we are under the anathema of God, because the Apostle Paul says here, if anyone preaches any other gospel than that which you have received, let him be anathema.

But I believe that Luther and Calvin and the Reformers were preaching the biblical gospel, and the great, great, great tragedy is that when Ryan put justification by faith alone under her anathema, she put herself under the anathema of the biblical gospel.

And if they believe the gospel of Jesus Christ, they're going to be saved by Jesus Christ. Don't get me wrong. The black church does not believe and does not teach the biblical gospel. And yet, in our day, people are making a mad rush to believe peace.

This tape for free to anyone who places an order with our ministry. R .C. Sproul's message is vital in today's ecumenical age of moral and theological relativism. Write Christian Answers, Post Office Box 144441, Austin, Texas, 78714.

Please make sure you mention the tape, Only One Gospel, with your order.

James White’s First Rebuttal: Ephesians 1, John 6, and John 10

Welcome back to Christian Answers Live. I'm Lee Meckley along with Jim Tungate. And this afternoon we're talking about predestination. We're actually debating predestination specifically. If all true believers are predestined, in fact, to persevere in their faith until the end and be saved.

And we have two able gentlemen dealing with that. We have James White, who is taking the affirmative position, coming from the Protestant viewpoint. And we have James Aiken, who is representing the Catholic position and is denying the proposition.

And both gentlemen now have seven minutes to present their rebuttals. And we'll go ahead and get started with that, starting with James White. James, you have seven minutes from right now.

Thank you very much. I want to remind the listeners what the thesis of our debate is. All true Christians are predestined to persevere. I took the time to quote from Mr. Aiken and lay out the actual issues.

I'm very disappointed that he chose to ignore that and to go another direction in his presentation. Only a very small portion of what Mr. Aiken had to say was actually directed at the position that I had taken in regards to this particular issue.

I brought up what the issues really are from what Mr. Aiken has said in his own article. And that is, does the Bible teach that there is a predestination to initial salvation and a predestination to final salvation?

These are two separate things, but they're not necessarily connected with one another in the sense that a person can be predestined to initial salvation, not final salvation. And I also pointed out, and John 6 and John 10 did not get addressed at all, that the other issue is, what about these allegedly non-elect Christians?

Does the Bible allow for this, and John 6 plainly does not allow for that. Now, Mr. Aiken said Ephesians 1 is talking about predestination to initial salvation, whereas Romans 8 is talking about predestination to glory.