The American Churchman: The New Sanhedrin?

All right, welcome to the American Churchman podcast. I am not John Harris, but it doesn't mean you should turn it off immediately. I am related to him. I'm his brother. I'm the director of TrueScript and I am pinch hitting for him today as always, or unless we have a significant category five hurricane.

Matthew Pearson is here with us tonight. Matt, how are you doing?

I am doing great, David. As always, it's always a pleasure to be here and it's even a greater pleasure to have you on now. It's kind of funny how last week I was not able to make it because I was stupid enough to go down to Tampa during the hurricane.

So that was fun, but yeah, John recommended I probably shouldn't do the cast and I was gonna cancel anyways, but it's funny how you two did it and now he's gone and I'm here. So, but yeah, it's good to see you.

Good to be with you for this cast.

I'm excited.

Absolutely. I don't think you were stupid at all. I was texting with my father-in-law who lives in Florida and telling him, listen, I'm coming. I don't wanna miss it, but I don't know. I'm weird like that as well.

When there's significant weather events, I have like a, I have a deep, I hope masculine urge to be present for them. Like I need to experience them with everyone else, which by the way, you're gonna get into an attribute of God, but something about storms that's always struck me and how it relates to sort of the attributes of God is a storm, especially like a big storm is a strange thing, because there's this thing that you have a fear of it because of the power, but you also kind of desire it.

Like you want to see the power and that's sort of like the Lord. So that's kind of cool.

Yeah, absolutely.

But we're going to talk about the unity of God. Can you tell us a little bit about the unity of God?

Absolutely.

I will do my best. I just also want to let the audience know every time we go through these, I do so with fear and trembling because attributes of God are something incredibly important to know, but they're also something very important to get right.

So whatever you hear me talk about, I would highly recommend just looking into it yourself as well, because not just like fact check me, making sure that I don't spout any heresies, but these are just so important for helping us contemplate who God is and just showing us the glory of God.

There's a C .S. Lewis quote in the beginning of On the Incarnation with Athanasius where he talks about how it's oftentimes like it's not from the devotional books that he really feels the closest to God, but sometimes it's just sitting in his chair, smoking a pipe and reading some hard hitting theology where he feels the closest.

And I definitely can relate to that. So just for your own faith, study these as well.

They're good.

But our attribute today is going to be the unity of God or as I like to term it, just for ease, divine unity. So before I even define this or get into what this is, I'm just gonna read three short Bible verses for us.

The first one is Deuteronomy chapter six, verse four, where the scripture says, "'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God is one Lord.'". Next one is Isaiah chapter 44, verse six, where the scripture says, "'Thus saith the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts, I am the first and I am the last and beside me there is no God.'".

And those were both from the Old Testament. So our final verse, we could do a few more verses out of the New Testament, but I really liked this one. It's from Ephesians chapter four, verses five through six, where the scripture says, "'One Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and father of all who is above all and through all and in you all.'".

So essentially, when we talk about divine unity, what is unity? Unity is a sort of, there's a oneness there. Unity is the opposite of plurality. Unity is one. So when we talk about divine unity, remember how a few weeks back, we had discussed on the cast, John and I, at least, we had discussed divine simplicity, that God is not, he's not a composite thing.

He's not like, this is a part of God. This is a part of God. This is a part of God. And when you put them all together, you have God. No, each of the attributes which God possesses, God, each of these attributes are God.

So God does not have love. God does not have the greatest amount of love. God is love and so forth with the rest of his attributes. So when we think about divine simplicity in relation to divine unity, we have to know that by virtue of God's simplicity, he's undivided.

So God is not made of parts. He's undivided. And because God is undivided, he is one. So to get into a bit of a more complicated definition of divine simplicity, because these are something that we have to do, I kind of put together this little definition using primarily Richard Moeller's Dictionary of Latin and Greek Theological Terms.

This is excellent,.

Especially if you're a seminary student, which we'll be discussing that topic very shortly. But Richard Moeller, I basically try to condense it down as best as I can. He basically talks about how the doctrine of divine unity is this idea that God ought to be understood to be one in an absolute sense due to there being no other God.

And this one God is an absolute unity incapable of division. So there is no other God. God cannot be divided. When we talk about God, God alone exists as God. So that's why we always capitalize a G in God because he is like no other.

When you see a lowercase g God, they're not even in the same category because there is no genus in God where you can label all these various species or whatever I can phrase and other scholastic gobbledygook ways.

But all that to say, God is one. Hermann Bavink says of this, that there is but one divine being that in virtue of the nature of that being, God cannot be more than one being. And consequently, that all other beings exist only from him, through him and to him.

Hence this attribute teaches God's absolute oneness and uniqueness. And then for our final little quote for me to riff off of to read from regarding this, we're going to go to Thomas Aquinas, where he says in his Summa Theologica, he says, God, well, this is primarily, this is an objection, basically, the one in which he is answering, saying why it is that God has to be, there only has to be one God and why other gods cannot exist.

He writes that God comprehends in himself the whole perfection of being. If then many gods existed, they would necessarily differ from each other. Something therefore would belong to one which did not belong to the other.

And if this were a privation, so if one of them was lacking something, one of them would not be absolutely perfect. But if a perfection, one of them would be without it. So if one of them was perfect, another guy would be without it.

And so you can't have multiple gods for this very reason. So he continues saying, so it is impossible for many gods to exist. Hence also the ancient philosophers constrained as it were by truth, when they asserted an infinite principle asserted likewise that there was only one such principle.

So God is in a unique category where he alone is the one God. And this is grounded in the fact that he is simple. He is not made up of parts. There is no other being like him. God's being is one and one alone.

And there is only one divine being. And this is just going over the unity of God. This isn't going over unity in relation to the Trinity. That's a whole other conversation we can get into though. David, you and I could discuss that a little bit if you feel like doing so, but that's basically divine unity.

How do we sort of fit the concept of Trinity into the concept of God being unified?

That's a great question.

How would we, I guess, I mean, the word might be reconcile. I don't know if that's the right word, but how do we sort of jive those things together?

Yeah, so the way in which you, the two big like stumbling blocks for this idea of divine unity in regard to the God of the universe, like the God of the scriptures is the fact is two things, two primary doctrines, which are key to our faith is the Trinity and the incarnation.

So when it comes to the Trinity, what you have to realize is that there is only one divine being who is a unity. And these persons are not their own beings. They are simply different. The way in which you conceptualize them is you differentiate them by their relations to one another.

So you don't divide them, they're united, you distinguish them. So we distinguish the father from the son and from the spirit. So we know that the father is he who begets the son. That's how we distinguish father and son.

And we know that the son is begotten of the father. And we know that the spirit proceeds from the father alone, if you're Eastern Orthodox, or if you're a Western Christian, aka correct, from the father and the son, he proceeds.

And so these are ways in which we distinguish the persons who are still united in their very essence or being. They share the same divine nature, and thus they are not divided. So that's how we sort of work our way through the Trinity in regard to divine unity, is by the fact that we distinguish the persons, but we do not divide or separate them from one another.

And within our Protestant context, obviously it's sort of the framework that we're approaching is, we're taking everything within scripture and being so careful to not go beyond it really in any way. One of our directors, Russell Fuller, Dr. Russell Fuller, who is professor at South, Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, talks a lot about this, I know, in just the trying to make very, very certain.

I mean, to the point that he's actually made me afraid to just almost afraid to talk about the Trinity. You know, at all, which, you know, we shouldn't be because it's so clear in scripture. But just even by way of analogy, like even when we're trying to come up with analogy to explain the Trinity to not go beyond what's clearly presented in scripture or add to that understanding in a way that maybe it makes, maybe it helps, you know, make sense to us, but isn't, you know, necessarily orthodox.

The thing that comes to mind, I don't know if you'd remember this, you probably would have been maybe in your early teens, but there was a book that came out called The Shack.

Oh yeah.

You remember The Shack? And it was really, really big in the evangelical world, it was huge. And I know at the church I went to, a bunch of people kind of started reading it and, oh, this book is great, it really explains stuff.

And some of the people in our church started to read it and they're like, this is taking the analogous, you know, it's taking the analogy so far that it's like, it's really trending into like blasphemy.

And so just being careful whenever we're trying to explain, you know, these concepts that are so integral to our understanding of God.

And it's just so important because of who it is we're talking about, we're talking about God and we need to be very careful with how we speak of him, which is kind of why even before I got into the session, I was just saying, I do that with fear and trembling because a great God of which we speak who has in his grace and mercy deigned something right to reveal himself to us in his word.

You can know from the creative world and nature that there is a God out there, but it's only through his condescending to us through divine revelation or through special revelation that you know that this God is triune.

And so we have to be very careful when we speak about this. That's why they were so hotly debated in the early church. This is why there were anathemas placed on those who didn't get this right or who erred because this is God we're talking about.

If you worship the wrong God, there is no salvation. So it's very important.

Yeah.

Yeah, good stuff. Good stuff. All right, so let us get into some of our pieces for this week. Let me just share the TrueScript website with all y 'all. Am I? I want it. Oh no, I don't just want me. Oh, now it's just me with no one's line.

There we go.

All right, that's what I was looking for. Guys, I don't normally host this, but everyone's gotta get their feet wet. So let's look really quick at this piece. Matt is not gonna have quite as much to say probably about it because he is a single guy at this point, which there's a valuable perspective there.

I'm gonna just plug this piece a little bit. This is from a guy named Jonah Hewer. He is a young man who lives up in Minnesota and he's written several pieces for us. But he asked the question in this article, should marriage and children wait until I'm established?

And I'm married, I have two kids, so I'm sort of, this is already determined for me. Matt, these are things that you will probably be thinking about and the thing that kind of struck me as I was first going through this was just the fact of how much has changed in what it means to be established.

So even if I just go back to when I got married, so I got married eight years ago. Being established, so especially economically, was a lot easier. It was a lot more straightforward in a lot of ways. And when I got married, we waited about five years to have kids.

And we were deliberately waiting for about five years. And then we were kind of like, all right, we should go ahead and have kids now. And I don't know if I would say I regret so much as like wish we had just started having kids earlier because we were very young and there was a lot of freedom and it was really, really great.

Like we really enjoyed being a young married couple. But children have made our lives so much, have just made our lives so vibrant. Like they've really added so, so much. So he says in the beginning here, establishes a word that's frequently used when family questions are discussed.

Young people are advised to establish themselves before considering getting married and having kids. After all, how could an inexperienced, naive, know nothing, 20 something, possibly manage the responsibilities that come with a family?

And I know for me, especially when I was in college, the predominant, really what most people my age, the pressure that they sort of had was, you need to finish college. You absolutely need to be done with college before you even think about getting married.

You really need to be established in a career. So you can't just be, kind of doing a side job or something that, like you need to have a real career. You need to have medical insurance. There's sort of a list of things that you absolutely need to have.

Many of which in the past, it actually might've been, you need to have a house. And now even people in their thirties, maybe in their forties are kind of like, man, I sure hope one day I can have a house.

I know that's me and my wife. But what Jonah sort of talks about here is how the default assumption is that you wait. You wait to have kids and that's just a given. And my wife was 20 when we got married.

So she got a lot of, I mean, from extended family, from our immediate family was very supportive, but extended family and a lot of friends. So we're in upstate New York. People thought she was insane.

Like you are crazy getting married at 20. I think one person said like, you're gonna throw your life away like that. You're just, you're throwing your life away by getting married young. And that was before we even had kids.

But that's sort of become the default assumption. So Jonah talks about in this piece about how they kind of like, they started having kids and they didn't feel prepared for it. But he has a good little quote here.

He says, a few months later, so this is after he had already gotten married and they found out they were gonna have a child. So a few months later at a get together with several men from my church, one of the guys asked me how it felt to be expecting a child.

Our pastor was there and challenged me to answer in 17 words or less. That was the limit he taught to adhere to for sermon summaries. He was joking, but I accepted the challenge and eventually I came up with this.

There's no such thing as established. There's only the challenge and God's grace to face it. So I think he makes a good case that marriage, but especially having children within marriage, man, children are a blessing.

I cannot describe to how, I used to come home from work. I'm a teacher. So I used to come home from work every day and my wife would usually be at work and I would just do whatever. I would hang out with a buddy or maybe I'd read a book or something.

When I come home now, I have a little two-year-old that runs and goes, daddy and runs. And it's an unparalleled feeling because I think because it's the fulfillment of a role that God has designated to me as a father that he's prepared, especially for me and really for all men who get married.

So I would commend that piece. I don't know if you had the chance to read that man, if it made you think at all about that situation. You're sort of, you're in the thinking about going ahead. I'm just curious, what do you, you're a little younger than me.

What pressure do you, have you noticed, especially from like the world, but even within the church, what is the expectation, if that makes sense, when it comes to marriage, but especially kids?

Yeah, I did get the chance actually to read the piece. It was pretty brief, but I enjoyed it. And I actually related to it quite a bit because there was this girl that I was dating for about three years in college.

And I remember us discussing marriage like about a year and a half in, and she was like, yeah, I tried to talk to my dad about it. And he was like, nope, not until he is making at least 50K, then I'll give him permission basically.

And that kind of, that lingered for like the rest of it. And eventually because of that, we had to call it quits because we just realized like, look, that's just with what I want to do in the timeframe and things like that, it's just not going to work.

So we eventually had to call it quits because of that. So I've definitely experienced that as well. But there is this expectation, you have the one side of things where it's like, a lot of people are like, just get married young, start pumping out babies, that's good.

And I definitely would agree that, yeah, if you have the opportunity to marry, if that's the providential circumstance in which God has placed you here, where you're with like a godly young woman and you two are able to do that, you're not fully established, by all means, don't put yourself in a circumstance where you like date for eight years or something without getting married, because that's just, that's unnecessary and will obviously lead to issues and whatnot.

But on the other side, you do have people that are very much like, due to the economy being so bad and all these other things, they do want you to get established. And I've definitely kind of seen both sides.

And as I said, with my personal anecdote, I've experienced the latter quite a bit. I've heard a lot about that. So it is something I've thought a lot about and kind of just thinking, like looking at my bank account as it dwindles from paying tuition and rent.

And I'm just like, man, if I find a girl or something, hopefully I can be able to get something going.

I don't know.

But I'm very blessed in that I have a very supportive family. So I think that, if the Lord placed someone in my life for that, with what I have and, I'm probably gonna get a job soon. I'll keep looking right now, but one that works with my seminary schedule, of course.

But I'm not really too nervous about it in the future. I think it's good to get married young and all that. But at the same time too, there are benefits towards being single. And so if you don't have someone right now, and I'm 23 and I'm kind of just chilling.

I'm not really like, I'm not necessarily dying right now. It would it be nice? Yeah, of course. But you can take advantage of where God has placed you. But I would definitely say, yeah,.

If you have someone,.

That's probably a good thing to pursue because there are good things that come out of it. Actually, my roommate that I have is a really good friend of mine. Actually met him through Twitter, funny enough.

But we've been hanging out like a lot in person.

For the past year.

And, but yeah, we're roommates. And I'm actually, so I have two other roommates besides him. And those two roommates are his wife and their one-year-old daughter. And it's great, honestly, seeing that dynamic and we're not tired of each other.

So that's good. But his daughter is very sweet. She likes me a lot. So that's nice. I make funny noises at her and it makes her laugh and smile. And it definitely, I'm just like, yeah, this is cool. I'll, you know, Lord willing, I'll have that.

So it'll be good. But yeah, no, I thought it was an excellent article. Helped illuminate a lot of stuff for me. But yeah, I know that was a bit of a long-winded answer to your question. But yeah, I definitely have seen what you described with discouragement towards getting married young, especially personally in my life with past relationship, a past relationship that I've been in.

Yeah, you make a good point and I can relate. I didn't get married till I was in my mid-twenties. So my first, especially my, when I was 19, especially like 19, 20, 21, those were the most exciting years of my life.

I mean, I was in Southern Africa. I was able to travel all over the place. There were a lot of really significant benefits to being that age and not being married for me. But I think you're kind of hitting on something.

So from the world, you'll sort of get a pressure of, you know, it's all about you. So you need to make your marital decisions and your children decisions, right? Family planning. You need to make it basically all about you.

And when you get married, you realize, first thing you realize is, oh my goodness, this is not about me. This is about sanctification. And it's a blessing, but it's work. It takes a lot of work and it changes.

You know what Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 7, it's very true. You now have worldly concerns and not that that's bad. It's marriage is a, he who finds a wife finds a good thing. But the temptation, I think, because we live in an age of, John talks about this a lot, but we live in an age of ideology.

The temptation is to just run to the other side and say, well, everybody needs to be everybody, right? We need to get everybody married by 19 or 20 or whatever it is. If you're not married, you need to.

And the fact of the matter is, God calls different people to different things. And I know we didn't mean to go as long on this piece, but my best friend passed away when he was 20 years old. He was 25.

He died in a hiking accident. He had just recently broke up with a girl right, like a couple of months before he died. And he, this is a guy who really wanted to be married. He wanted to have kids. He used to say his dream was, you know, I want to get married so I can come home and play football with the kids.

And I almost would like make fun of him for it and say like, oh man, that's kind of lame. Like, don't you want to, you know, don't you want to be a mercenary in a foreign country? You know? And he, but he, you know, he died.

He's with, he's with Christ now completely unexpectedly, but it was not God's will for him to get married. It was God's will for him to be a single man and to die that way and to be a testimony for, for others.

So, you know, God calls us to different things. And I think that's a very important to remember, especially when we're talking about marriage. And I would especially say that for, you know, maybe older people in the church who, you know, you may have lived a certain way or you may have, things may have been a certain way when you were going through that stage and it may be different now.

And, you know, God's, God's calling, which is what we're going to get into now may not be the same for everybody. So sort of using that as a, I don't know if there's anything else you want to say about that, but using that as a segue into this next piece that I'm going to pull up about seminary.

And I want to, is there anything else you want to say?

No, I think that we can move on. I think we're in a good spot now.

Yeah.

So let's go to a probably more controversial piece. So I'm actually, I want to just do a really quick disclaimer. I actually want to explain why, why we published this piece at all, because I don't want, I don't want anyone thinking that we are, that this is true script taking a position of slamming seminaries, because we're not.

We, you know, we have people who are on so many boards on our director. So that's not at all what we're trying to do. My intention, and I've been corresponding with the author of this for a little while, is to sort of bring to light and to have cause for, I think, discussions that probably need to happen, but aren't necessarily, there's, what I noticed is there's sort of a, there's a little division, not a little, it's a big division, between often the, between church leaders and those fill in the congregation.

And I don't, I think this is, because this is the same if you look all throughout society, you know, the, for lack of a better word, expert class, there's a lot of dissonance between the expert class and the people who are not, you know, sort of, I guess, your average layman in a multiplicity of fields.

Obviously we see that most in the political realm, but we see it in the, I mean, during COVID, we saw it in the medical community. We see sort of two different, what often become echo chambers. And my sort of interest is to, you know, hopefully create a bridge, and that I don't even necessarily agree with everything in here.

I know you don't, but we're gonna discuss it and talk about it and bring some of these things to light. So this piece is called the American Sanhedrin. I'm gonna read the first two paragraphs, and then I'm just gonna launch into a couple of questions.

So the author, his name is Alan Gertenson, sorry. In the Bible, we find a young man named Timothy. He grew up in a believing family. He came to love the Lord at a young age. Timothy couldn't imagine a life where every waking minute wasn't dedicated to the service of the church.

One day, Timothy told his youth pastor about his burning desire for ministry. For the rest of his young life, his church looked forward to the day when they could send Timothy off to be educated at the seminary in Jerusalem.

After graduation, Timothy responded to a call from a small church in Africa that he'd never heard of. Timothy spent his first few years at that church learning the troubles of trying to lead older people.

He held a few successful conferences, leveraging his contacts back in Jerusalem to periodically get a big name to come out from seminary there. He moved every five to 10 years, beginning the same cycle and generally having a mostly uneventful ministry until he was in his mid -50s.

I'm just gonna finish up with this paragraph. It was at this time that Timothy committed a disqualifying sin. His congregation was crashed at the revelation of another fallen evangelical leader who seemed so solid for so long.

Do you remember that story? Does it represent how disciples have always been made since the earliest days of the Great Commission? Is that the biblical story or the modern version? Remember in 2 Timothy 2, 2, where it says, "'Entrust these things to untested boys "'who seem to be on fire for Christ "'in youth groups somewhere else.'".

And got a certificate from a seminary you agree with, right? So dripping with sarcasm and very, very, very tongue-in-cheek if it's not clear sort of what this piece is saying is that the way that Timothy was trained is not the way that men are trained today.

So to sort of launch into this, Matt, you are a seminary student now. Can you talk for a minute about why you decided to go to seminary?

Well, I decided to go to seminary because I felt there was an internal call towards the ministry which was then externally validated by my pastors and elders. And so the way in which you go about getting a being able to pursue ministry within the context of the PCA, the Presbyterian Church in America is, well, you have to have a seminary degree and show the session when you eventually go up to get ordained or if you're going to go under the care of the presbytery prior to ordination that you're either, so going under care show that you're at least getting theological education or basically like guaranteed to do so.

And then getting ordained, you need to have a sort of theological education which just happens to be done through the seminary system. So I decided to do that. Something about the seminary I'm at, I'm at Reformed Theological Seminary, Orlando.

And I'm from Tampa, Florida. So actually part of my decision in choosing that was not only, I do think it's an excellent seminary with a lot of great professors. I'm a big fan of Dr. Scott Swain and Dr. Michael Allen and not just because they teach me, I was a fan before, but because it was in Florida.

So that played a big part of it, which I know a lot of the guys that are more anti-seminary, they kind of go, oh, you're shipping them off somewhere. And I was like, no, I'm only two hours from home.

I go home every three weeks to, so my dad can give me a haircut and I can have dinner with my family and things like that. But yeah, I went there because that is what is required. But not only that, to get a theological education, I'm largely self-taught theologically.

And I think that's a perfectly good way to go about, I mean, with the amount of resources that we have now due to the internet and due to all the publishing companies, it's good. But I do wanna learn there and I do wanna grow in wisdom and knowledge.

And just by virtue of what's before me, what my path is, I thought seminary would be the best way to go about that in order to get ordained. So that's sort of my reasoning. I want to be able to grow a knowledge of God.

And we'll probably touch on this more as we go through the article, but I didn't necessarily go to seminary because, oh, that's a place where I may learn how to be a pastor. Now, that is going to be taught there.

That is something important. There should be professors there that are also pastors. If none of your professors are pastors, that does concern me a little bit, but that's not the primary reason. And the reason why that's not my primary reason is because I think the best way that you learn how to be a pastor is not necessarily in the academic context, but more so it's going to be in an ecclesial context, in the context of a local church, which is why so many seminaries require a certain amount of field hours at a local church where you're a pastoral intern, who, if you're a Presbyterian, is under the care of a presbytery.

So, yeah, that's my reasoning, basically.

Yeah, so I'm going to talk for a second about why I chose not to go to seminary. And for direct context, I've toured a number of seminaries, and the last one that I did tour in, potentially, with the potential to attend, was RTS Oviedo, where Matt, where you going now?

I was there a few years ago, and I considered moving to Oviedo from New York and attending. And I wanted to go, so with me, circumstantially, the reason why I didn't go there specifically, because I took a tour of the school, I talked to a bunch of people who knew a ton of things, and I was like, I want to learn this, I want to learn this, because I wanted to learn Greek and Hebrew, and I wanted to, what I really wanted to learn was I wanted to study Christian history from roughly the year 500 to the year 1500, because I always felt like the church history kind of regimen that I got from Sunday school, from the beginning was, there was the disciples, and there was the apostles, and there's Paul, and then there's the church in Rome, and Constantine makes Christianity legal.

Nothing happened for 1 ,200 years than Martin Luther and Anthony.

Well, no, Augustine happened, and then Martin Luther.

Oh, that's right, Augustine, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So I had a good conversation with a guy at RTS, and I was kind of like, I know stuff happened, I want to know what happened.

Yeah.

So, and I decided not to go, because a lot of it was circumstantial. I was already married, and I wasn't interested in a degree. I already had a master's degree. I didn't feel the need to add more credentials, to take it, basically to spend a bunch of money to get a credential, to study something that I knew I could study if I just found the right.

Honestly, if I found somebody like Dr. Fuller, who now teaches, he has his own theology classroom. I knew I could find somebody. And then the Hebrew, I wound up working at an Orthodox Jewish school, very shortly after.

And I was like, well, if I want to learn Hebrew, I suppose they could teach me Hebrew. I mean, it'd be kind of weird, but I suppose it's possible. But I agree with what you're saying about pastoral ministry.

So for a seminary to be pastoral ministry, and I think that may be where some of the disconnect comes in, where a lot of seminaries, I don't mean a lot of seminaries have, I mean, Harvard was a seminary, right?