November 29, 2005

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 9 7 3 4 6 0 2 or toll-free across the United States. It's 1 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1. And now with today's topic here is James white.

Opening Remarks on the Program, the Weather, and Current Events

And welcome to the dividing line on a Tuesday morning a bit of a nippy morning here in Phoenix. It's nice. Finally that the cool weather has arrived. It arrived a couple days ago last two mornings. It's actually dipped down into the very upper 30s, which for us is.

That's as cold as it gets. I don't think it has frozen here. I think it's gotten below 32 about six years now. So that's yeah. We've had not had a hard freeze in a long long time and we used to Used to be a little more common but as the city has grown and grown and grown and grown you put all that that concrete and asphalt and Rock lawns out and that's global warming.

Yeah global warming. Yes. Well, it is there is global warming. That's not no one's questioning. There's global warming. The problem was there was global cooling. That got us to the point where now we're having global warming.

So it's called a cycle. Yeah, but it's our fault. Well, of course. You know Christians do you know that? Well, yeah, that's what what was that magazine? Recently. That it that it that I was just looking at this.

Yeah, Mother Jones magazine December issues all about how conservative Christians are behind all the evils the world. So that's great. I mean, I was just scanning over some of the stuff here by the way open phones eight seven seven seven five three three.

Three four one eight seven seven seven five three three three four one. I was just reading some of the world magazine blog. Titles here, which I do I try to do on a regular basis. David Limbaugh writes about the University of Wisconsin Eau Claire banning resident assistants from leading Bible studies in their own dorm rooms and then we have.

We have this real brilliant issue here. Brunswick Main Town Council debate ensued over the content of a poem to be placed on a memorial to the town's firefighters. Members local firefighters Union selected a poem written in 1959 by a Kansas fireman entitled a fireman's prayer to appear on the monument.

Some council members feared that because the poem mentions God it would violate the separation of church and state. Others were afraid that a line which the firefighter asked God to protect his wife and children Could be perceived as a sexist comment.

Implying that only men can be firefighters. Thankfully the council finally voted to allow the poem to remain unaltered on the memorial. There's there's what you get when you have secularism pure Unadulterated secularism we can't talk about God we have to deny our own history.

I'll tell you it's.

Anyway I.

This past week was finally contacted by one of the Muslim Apologists whose debates of Sam Shamoon I Reviewed this particular individual I played as I recall two clips but by name I in the process of reviewing the Shabbir Ali debate reviewed comments from various other individuals who have had debates with Sam Shamoon on a pal talk and I think the major comment.

I made was that particular recording was just maddening to listen to all the pal talk chitter chatter and and all the problems and the technical problems and the really bad nature of the recording and all the rest that stuff, but Anyway, I finally heard from one of these individuals.

I had mentioned that his followers had been emailing me and saying I was afraid of this man and all the rest of stuff and So I had played some clips and documented some errors, and so I finally heard this week in email Basically saying so are you inviting me on your program, and I said well we have open phones It's a toll-free number eight seven seven seven five three three three four one You're welcome to call in and take issue with anything that I said or Defend your position, and we've been doing this for 20 some odd years now we have a long track record of the fact that we honor the truth on this program and You know as long as a person doesn't become abusive use foul language or the like then we could have have a conversation and So you're inviting me on your program is almost like so you want me to be your guess is no I'm not not doing that.

But if you want to call in the number is eight seven seven seven five three three three four one so I would invite that gentleman or his representatives or whoever if he wishes to participate in the program today as I offered then In the sense of calling in as a as a regular caller today the phone number is open to you him or to others if You would like to call in that is fine and dandy.

We're here for another 54 minutes or approximately there, so actually talking wise only about 52 more minutes 58 10 I believe is when I start hearing that Steve camp music in the background, but yes it may Be more than happy to discuss some of the things that were said and and of course just to provide a little bit of the background.

I.

Took the time to go back through and resurrect the eclipse listen to the debate again. Put some other clips together, and as I recall the first thing that I had mentioned in regards this particular Individuals presentation Nadir Ahmed is the the name that is on the file anyways and It was this particular clip that I played that I discussed the issue of The alleged corruption of the New Testament and the issue of equivocation using the term corruption to mean multiple things.

You can say text is corrupt in the sense that You can no longer determine its original meanings that it's no longer a viable text to represent The original intents and words of the author or you can use the term corruption and it is used in a technical sense in textual criticism of any textual variation and Obviously those are two different things.

It is a far cry to go from there is textual variation in manuscripts. There is Handwritten manuscripts and hence there is textual variation you always have Textual variation handwritten manuscripts there are textual very there obviously there are clearly Variations in the early editions of the Quran you would not have had to have The traditional understanding of the Uthmanian revision and the burning of Quran's Within just a matter of decades after the death of Muhammad if there were not those types of corruptions that took place and so Any ancient text and I might and the term ancient there might be a little bit overblown any text that was written prior to the invention of the printing press is going to have that kind of Variation handwritten variation in it and that is called textual corruption and in fact Even after the invention of the printing press you had all sorts of types of textual corruption even then.

One of the more humorous things is to document the various errors of printing remember how printing used to be done typesetting each individual letter in block and so on so forth. So much humorous to document the various corruptions that took place in the printing of the King James version of the Bible in the early years and We even have it have it today.

People can be zipping along on the computer typing away, and you can still skip lines you can inadvertently. Ever ever been in a program I do this in channel all the time where I'm going along too fast.

And I hit a key combination that brings up a really neat thing in the program. It got there, and it's like oh, that's cool. There's all sorts of times I wish I could use that but I have no idea how to get back to it because I don't I don't know what I Did is wrong key combination or you can just accidentally hit ctrl V and insert something that and if you aren't watching you didn't even know.

You inserted it, and you look up the screen. Don't know what happened. And if if you're not being careful you can end up sending it off that way that happens to all of us. Textual variation takes place because human beings are imperfect human beings and so you have that type of a situation.

So it is it is a very poor form of argumentation to equivocate on the use the term corruption and Where you Say you you know you could you could catch me. You could with all the things I've said all things I've recorded all the debates I've done over the years be very easy for you to find on one end my saying The Bible is the Word of God Inspired and inerrant and on another place find me talking about a textual variant in the New Testament.

And if you you know just simply don't respect truth. Or you're confused or just ignorant of what you're talking about you can try to make those two statements contradictory. They are not Contradictory, but you can make them contradictory by equivocating on The terminology and so as I recall The initial section of this debate that I played was the one I'm gonna play right now if we can have the volume ready.

Where.

This discussion of corruption comes up.

Let me start off by saying that corruption comes in two forms. The first form is by corrupting the actual text itself for example. We have two books book a and book B. Book a is the literal Word of God and let's say that in book a it says that Jack went up the hill.

But one and book B is actually a copy of book a so what I write down in book B I write Jack went down the hill so what I have done is that I have corrupted the word instead of up I wrote down. Another way you can corrupt the text is by corrupting it by your interpretation.

Going back to the same example in book a if it says Jack went up the hill. But my interpretation of that is Jack went to a higher understanding of truth. That's what the verse means. So then what I write down inside book B is my corrupt interpretation.

Which is Jack went to a higher understanding of knowledge of truth. Excuse me I don't write that Jack went up the hill which is what book a States and then book a disappears and all we are left with is book B.

So these are the two ways of how the Bible or how any scripture can get corrupted and corrupted by interpretation as well. As corrupting the very word itself.

Well, and I I took issue with that That that's that's an exceptionally simplistic and somewhat confusing presentation if you write a your Interpretation as if it is the actual text. That's that is gross corruption.

That's not even Transcriptional corruption that's not transmissional corruption. That's that's complete rewriting. That's editing or redacting and That's that's a completely different issue than if you change a word from up to down.

There's no discussion here about the primary the vast majority of textual variation in ancient Manuscripts was actually due to scribal error. That is instead of up using a variant Spelling of the word or a word that would be similar upward or something like that Something that can be explained by homo Italius on similar endings or by other scribal site errors or then later if Manuscripts are being produced in a scriptorium where it is being read and then copied down by multiple people.

Errors of hearing as well. You have errors due to familiarity with parallel passages. There's all sorts of things that goes way way way beyond the rather simplistic and somewhat confusing Presentation was made there and that's what I played and I said These aren't the only two forms and and in fact, these aren't really Directly connected to one another ones editing and redacting and there's no discussion here of purposeful editing or redacting or purposeful Changes over against the scribal errors and different kinds of scribal errors and so on and so forth.

And so that's that's what I addressed and then as I recall later on I pointed out That when Sam Shimon could not get his microphone working He had to restart pile talk and start it all over again and blah blah blah blah and in the process There was this Discussion in regards to Well here this this is this is what took place when Sam Shimon was attempting to get his his Pal talk thing working and I took a real exception this because I found it to be rather childish.

I'm sorry. I won't accept that and I warned him. Please make sure your microphone is working. So we're not going to do it that way. He cannot get his microphone done. He's not going to run away. We're going to continue with us today.

So I want to make sure that's very clear. You can type and somebody can read after him and we don't. We won't put a time on that.

That is the way we will do it. That's not that's not fair. And I said, you know, that's just that's just simply absurd. You know, someone can't get their their Material working there their computer working you schedule for another time.

You don't have someone sit there and try to debate Typing while you get to speak. I mean that's that was silly. That was pretty much the the entirety of it. And so as I was listening again, I Ran across and I I may have now let me let me think about I may have played this one as well as an example of Just completely missing missing the boat.

Now we go to.

Volume.

Excuse me. We go to Abu Dawood volume 9 book 92 number 460 married Abu Huraira. By Abu Huraira the people of book used to read the Torah in Hebrew and they explained it in Arabic to the Muslims. Allah's Apostle said to the Muslims do not believe in the people of the book nor disbelieve in them.

But say we believe in Allah and whatever is real to us and whatever is revealed to you. So we are supposed to say we believe in what was revealed to you, but don't confirm or deny what they're saying from there.

From their New Testament, and I'm asking why is the New Testament with hundreds and pure word of God? Why did the Rasul Allah give us this strong warning? But here we see another clear proof that the Bible which is in the hand of the Christians.

This book is corrupt.

Now I may have played that one. I'm not recalling right now as an example The New Testament wasn't written in Hebrew, and it wouldn't be narrated by Jews in Arabic. And yet he says so if the New Testament is pure then why would this warning exist well?

Maybe that was just a an error of thought or or speech or something. I don't know. But the fact the matter is you have a confusion here between the statement this particular hadith statement in regards to Jews reading the Torah the Old Testament in Hebrew and then explaining it in Arabic and What is said there?

And there's there's disagreements. And you can listen to the debate for yourself if you want to hear the disagreement over it actually what it means. Sam Shimon point out that they were they were explaining it in Arabic.

And that it was not an issue of well the Hebrew is wrong because as Another hadith points out that's at one point Muhammad placed the Torah on a pillow and said I believe what that this is the Word of God I believe was revealed from God so and so were and a Lot of this particular debate that took place was over what the Quran's view of the Christian scriptures is and things like that but I simply point out this is Simply not something that is relevant to the New Testament at all because the New Testament wasn't written in Hebrew.

So maybe I played that I'd have to go back and and double-check that. So as I was listening to the debate once again, there were a number of other things That came up that I thought well if If mr. Ahmed wishes to call in we can listen to these and we can discuss the specific claims that were made for example another example of this equivocation on the term corruption.

Took place a little bit later in the debate. Let's listen to that.

Now.

Sam Shimon, of course. On this internet and talking with his Christian friend has been promoting the view. Let me stop this room.

This was the part I was looking for. I remember now. I was looking for this in the in the entire waveform is like a hundred and forty four minutes that time or. Something longer than that. I was looking for this and I couldn't find it.

So I just had to sort of narrate what happened and.

Here I have. The actual thing that I've been looking for and couldn't find before the Bible is the uncorrupt Word of God the pure Word of God. In fact, I'm July 1st. Here on top Halcock in front of an audience of Orthodox Christians and Jews.

He was seeking some help on Jeremiah 8 8. This is what Sam said. I don't believe that anyone can corrupt the Bible.

He said it was a pure Word of God now. Let's stop right there and let's apply what we said before. Let's not equivocate on the meaning of the term corruption. What would a Christian like Sam Shimon mean by what he just said.

Would he be talking about textual variation? Would he be talking about? The textual variation of 1st John 3 1. No, he's not talking about that. He's talking about the Word of God as the Word of God. Destroying the Word of God so that the Word of God is lost.

You can no longer know what the Word of God was changing it so that there's confusion so on and so forth. So let's let's see if if that equivocation takes place. And he agreed with the Orthodox Jews in their belief.

That the Old Testament was the you know 100 pure Word of God which is what pretty much with most evangelical Christians believe and he's just basically reassuring them of their faith. But now ladies and gentlemen Prepare for the shock.

I said prepare for the shock. Because when Sam Shimon is confronted with biblical scholars or Qualified critics of the Bible. This is what Sam Shimon has to say about the uncorrupt pure Word of God.

Okay. Now so we've we've got the setup here and what we're about to hear is a portion from the Shabir Ali debate and We had heard this we had actually commented on it. Since it's secondhand. It may be a little bit difficult to understand but here Sam is going to talk about.

Guess what? Yep, you're right about textual variation.

So we see here he says no manuscript has come down very and free and in the Bible We can find the corruption in there. We know where it is and They go, but by the way, your Quran is the same way which by the way.

That's going to lead to the next debate in which inshallah I will debate him on the authenticity of the Quran and I will prove that the Quran is 100 authentic inshallah. So Sam Shimon has to come clean tonight.

He has to tell us what does he believe about the Bible? Do you believe it's corrupt or uncorrupt and then we can go from there?

So here you have I think one of the most clear examples of Equivocation here's here's the argumentation. Sam is talking about textual variants. He's pointing out the fact that any ancient Text that is passed down to us through manuscript form is going to have textual variations and That is then being allegedly Contrasted with and and made to allegedly contradict.

What is stated? Earlier in a in a completely different context. And pal talk about the corruption of the Word of God as the Word of God that kind of equivocation is very very common. And as you're talking with Muslims who have heard this kind of material.

Then you need to be prepared to address these issues. And who else do we have to address these issues with we have to address? These issues with Mormons who believe that the Bible has been corrupted. In in a very similar fashion very same skills same study that would prepare you.

For.

Dealing with the eighth article of faith the Mormon Church Salt Lake City should likewise help you to be prepared to deal with this kind of presentation as as well and. So that to me was was very interesting now.

There were about three different things that were presented By mr. Ahmed in his presentation. One of the primary ones he focused upon. There were two there was a surah 4 1 2 7 and there there was what he called the acid test of the Quran that the Bible allegedly fails.

The acid test of the Quran the acid test the Quran is found in surah 48 ayah 29 if You have a Quran, and you want to follow along.

And.

In the use of Ali translation we read the the following. Muhammad is the Apostle of Allah and those who are with him are strong against unbelievers. But compassionate amongst each other Thou wilt see them bow and prostrate themselves in prayer seeking grace from Allah and his good pleasure.

On Their faces are their marks being the traces of their prostration. This is their similitude in the Torah and Their similitude in the gospel is like a seed which sends forth its blade then makes it strong It then becomes thick and it stands on its own stem filling the sowers with wonder and delight.

As Result it fills the unbelievers with rage at him. Allah has promised those among them who believe and do righteous deeds Forgiveness and a great reward. So this is surah 48 ayah 29 and You will notice two references there one to the Torah and one to the gospel.

Now.

The commentary provided by Yusuf Ali in Regards to the similitude of the Torah is as follows. In the book of Moses Which is now found in a corrupt form. In the Pentateuch the posture of humility in prayer is Indicated by prostration.

For example Moses and Aaron fell upon their faces.

Numbers.

1622. And then in regards to the similitude in the gospel. The commentary is. The similitude in the gospel is about how the good seed is sown and grows. Gradually even beyond the expectations of sower the seed should spring and grow up.

He knoweth not how for the earth bringeth forth fruit of herself first the blade then the ear after the full corn in the ear Mark 4 27 to 28. Thus Islam was preached by the Holy Prophet. The seed seemed to humanize lost in the ground.

But it put forth its shoot and grew and became strong until it was able to stand on its own legs and its worst enemies Recognized its existence and its right to live. Note how much more complete the parable is in the Quran.

The mentality of the sowers of the seed is expressed in beautiful terms. Its growth and strength filled them with wonder and delight.

Now.

Let's keep track of what we're thinking about here, we're thinking about a.

A.

Man who is writing. Who is illiterate? He does not have the gospel text in front of him. He is seemingly going upon what he has heard people saying at points in the past. So you Have a man who may have heard the parable of the soils Found in Mark chapter 4 and in others of the Gospels the parable of the soils Preached at some point.

Probably never heard It from the original languages probably heard it only paraphrased or in some form of Arabic and This he is going by memory on what he heard in the past without reference to the original documents.

And.

So he remembers something about seed growing and sprouting and and. Here's how it appears in the Quran. And this would be more than 600 years removed from the actual teaching of the parable the recording of the parable by the synoptic Gospels In in the scriptures themselves.

Okay, so that's what you have in surah 48.

Aya.

29. This then becomes what's called the acid test in This debate and let's listen to what the acid test is supposedly all about.

Now.

Sam Shimon of course On this internet and talking with his Christian friend has been promoting the view that the Bible is the uncorrupt Word of God the pure Word of God, let's.

Get to the right one here. There you go.

It needs to be double clicks. Try it one more time moving on. It's a chapter 48 verse 29 the Quran Presents an acid test. This is a test to show if the Bible has been corrupted or not. It says over there inside chapter 48 verse 29.

But their description in the injeel and the gospel is like a foam seed which sent forth its shoots. Then makes it strong then it becomes thick and it stands straight on its stem Delighting the sword that he made that he may enrage the disbelievers therein.

So what. So what. The Quran here is saying that this verse is supposed to be in the injeel. So an uncorrupt Bible is supposed to have this verse. So I would like Sam Shimon to come up and show me where this verse is in the Bible.

Because the Quran says this is supposed to be in the injeel. Which is of course the revelation given to Jesus and I don't think he will be able to find it. The closest you're going to find I think is mark 27.

I'm sorry chapter 4 verse 27 and that is. But yet It's not the same. And when you and when Sam Shimon will read the verse you'll see this is not the same. Therefore we see that the Bible fails this acid test of the Quran.

Leaving the reader with no other conclusion other than that the Bible has been corrupted.

So there you have the Assertion you have a source written in a different language geographically removed. Temporally removed by over half a millennium. Written by a man without access to the original languages writing in a different language Based upon what he's heard of the presentation of Something that seems to be like it's represented in Matthew and Mark chapter 4 verse 27 and.

But because it's in the Quran that means the Bible's corrupted we have manuscripts of these Gospels that predate Islam by tremendous numbers of centuries here hundreds of years.

And.

They don't have any problem with the parable of the soils. There is no evidence to back up this assertion that this variant Reading even if it's meant to be a direct quotation, which would be highly unusual rather than just simply a similitude a an example We have no evidence of this reading ever having existed.

So you have a single man Who would have go into into fits and receive revelations from God allegedly Without knowledge of the original and on the basis of that 600 years removed the New Testament is corrupt.

You may recall back in 1999 when I debated Hamza Abdul Malik on the issue of the deity of Christ in the New Testament that in my opening statement I.

I.

Specifically said that the only way that you can deny the deity of Christ the text the New Testament is to handle the text of the New Testament as if It is to be corrected by an external authority specifically the Quran.

You have to allow a Later source a far removed source the Quran to overrule the New Testament here we have this and and as you examine the apologetic approach of Islam to the New Testament that will be the consistent activity of the Islamic apologist is to make the Quran the final authority and Anything in the New Testament that therefore contradicts the Quran is either misinterpreted or more likely it is simply completely corrupt Textually even if they cannot offer a single bit of evidence remember I kept asking mr. Malik During the course the cross-examination.

All right, so you're saying John chapter 1 you're saying Romans 9 5. You're saying this passage that these are these were all later interpolations. These were all put into the text later, right? Right.

Can you show us a single man? Well manuscript? Well, they're there. Well, can you show us one? Well scholars say can you name a scholar? Well, no, not right now could not even begin to substantiate the allegation, but that is what was taking place and that is the argument that is that is being made and so We will look a little bit more at this acid test and some other things.

There's also something about Jeremiah 8 8 and once again phone lines are open 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1. If mr. Ahmed would like to comment on these things He's more than welcome to do so on the program today 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1. We'll be right back.

It's all Righteousness, you know. Can I manufacture grace myself and I some religious place? But we've been hard on your face.

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Jeremiah 8:8 and the Meaning of Biblical Corruption

And welcome back to dividing line. We are listening to various clips from the debate between Nadir Ahmed and Sam Shamoon and. We had just listened to the acid test. There was a second acid test. Clip here.

I had here it is and It's about 46 seconds long. Let's say 48. Let's take a listen to it.

Let's see. What else did he say here chapter 48 verse 29. He said yep, it's it is there. Read chapter 4 verse 27 of Mark. It is different. It is not the same and I it talks about. In fact I have the where the verse if it's for the for for the earth to bring it forth fruits of herself.

The blade and the ear the blade in the year is the only thing which Matt and then full corn of ear. But when the fruit is brought forth immediately, he put it in the sickle. This had. The Quran says nothing of this.

We see here that the code that the Bible Fails the Quran's acid test. We do not find this verse in the Bible. I'm in the Bible at all. Which proved beyond a reasonable shadow that that the Bible has been corrupted because a pure and authentic Bible will have this birth which the Quran said that Indian Jill the description of such and such so it's it's it's corrupted.

Because There's a paraphrase of a portion of a verse in the Quran in a different language 600 years removed. Not because we can actually go to the manuscripts and prove it. Not because we can actually go to the the manuscript tradition and the New Testament presenting one of the most Testified to and documented manuscript traditions and all of ancient history.

Not because we can go to that and prove it. It's because one man in Trances and visions 600 years later in a different language who is illiterate Simply Paraphrase this and therefore it should have been written like this in the first place.

That's that's the the level of Of argumentation that is that is put forward in this particular context. Let's go back to the Other argument those present because this one is rather interesting because sir a 4157 we've talked about a number of times in the program recently.

But this time it's being used as evidence of the textual corruption of The New Testament. Listen to this type of argument.

Let's go on and take a look at another verse which talks about the corruption of the Christian scriptures. It says in fact chapter 4 verse 157 and because of their saying we killed Messiah Esa son of Mary the messenger of Allah, but they killed him not nor crucified him.

But the resemblance of Jesus was put over another man now Let me ask a question. What book is it which teaches the Christians that Jesus is crucified? Any third grader can answer that it is the Bible that is what the Christians use to justify their beliefs on crucifixion.

Now let me continue with a verse and those who differ therein are full of doubt. They have no certain knowledge. They follow nothing but conjecture. Again, I ask the question What is it that the Christians follow which teaches them that Jesus was crucified?

I think there can be no doubt about it that the Christians follow the Bible that's what teaches them, but look what the Quran says they follow nothing but conjecture and Conjecture is a form of corruption even Sam Shimon will agree upon that.

But can we also read this verse as saying they follow nothing but corruption of course and look what the verse says above and Those who differ therein are full of doubt. They have no certain knowledge.

People who believe in crucifixion have no certain knowledge. But we all know that they had the Bible in their hand. But this is not only talking about the Bible. But this is talking about all the Christians that believe in the Bible as well as the very Bible authors themselves.

Therefore not only do we find a clear charge of Bible corruption in this verse. But we also find a sweeping indictment of all the Bible authors and all the people who follow them. The verse is clearly speaking of Bible corruption and that conclusion is inescapable from this verse.