SRR #41 | The Presbyterian Philosopher

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00:02

I do a podcast. I'm not interested in your podcast. These are these are wolves

00:11

Truth be told that I often times lay awake at night trying to figure out how I can get rid of wolves in the church

00:23

We are unabashedly unashamedly Clarkian and so the next few statements that I'm going to make

00:29

I'm probably going to step on all of the Vantillian toes at the same time and This is what we do at simple riff around the radio.

00:35

You know, we are polemical and polarizing Jesus style I would first say that to characterize

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What we do as fashion is itself fashion. It's not hate.

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It's history. It's not fashion. It's the Bible Jesus said woe to you and then speak well of you for their fathers used to treat the false prophets in the same way

01:11

As opposed to blessed are you when you have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness? It is on we're taking the gloves off.

01:23

It's time to battle All right, thank you everybody for joining us my name is

01:30

Tim this is separate from on the radio We have with us today Well myself and Carlos Montijo our other co -host is in the house and just to remind everybody

01:42

We are part of the Bible thumping wingnut Network. I believe There's 10 other podcasts on there.

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So definitely check them out. I've been saying this every week guys Create a profile on the website and then join our group or join whatever podcast group you like and you will receive email notifications with all the stuff that they do and With that I really want to jump into what we've got going on this week.

02:10

I'm really excited about this I know a number of other people out there are probably excited about this as well because they've been asking me to do this for I don't know a couple of months probably if I if I remember correctly and We have with us

02:25

Doug Duma who is the author of My one of my new favorite books the

02:32

Presbyterian philosopher the authorized Biography of Gordon H.

02:37

Clark. So let me let me give Carlos an opportunity to say hello Let me give Doug an opportunity to say hello

02:44

Doug can you tell us a little bit about yourself from what I understand? I think that you recently got married and You recently graduated from seminary.

02:56

Is that right two big life events that happened? Yeah, both of those are correct. I got married in October Wife Priscilla is here listening to me.

03:07

Call her beautiful and And you know what we have we have this recorded so And I Graduated from seminary this past August at San Greta Cristo seminary

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Which is a reformed school despite its Spanish name We're not a Catholic school and it's a reformed school and Southern, Colorado started actually in 1976 by Gordon Clark's son -in -law

03:35

Dwight Zeller, and so it was a quite Interesting there to work with the family of Gordon Clark his daughter there as well

03:45

Brian and to have access to his personal papers and to get family information and stories which did find their way into itself awesome well

03:59

Carlos I'm really glad that you're here today because I know that you You understand

04:04

Clark I think a lot better than I do Carlos is actually the one who introduced me to Clark when

04:10

I was a hardcore Ventilion bonds night guy I remember back in the day

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Carlos and I used to Kind of butt heads because at the time the church that we were going to we were the only two guys that really had studied up on presuppositionalists and and I was pretty dogmatic about my presuppositionalism and I remember

04:32

Carlos and I used to used to butt heads a little bit and then He introduced me to the Trinity Foundation.

04:38

He introduced me to to Gordon Clark and from there I started reading

04:43

Clark for myself and and one of the things that I had found was that I think a lot of the

04:50

The stuff that was out there about Clark was a lot of misinformation and a lot of people didn't understand his point of view

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And a lot of people had what I would say were little little snippets of talking points that They they would just spout off without really even understanding

05:09

The the whole controversy and everything that happened and once once I started reading all the stuff the backstory

05:16

It really made me take a closer look at Clark himself and and what he contributed to the

05:23

Christian faith And so that's that's really what what I'm hoping that our listeners will get out of this episode is to Really give

05:33

Clark a chance you know we are gonna point out that there's a lot of misinformation, but Doug as I said before your book is one of my favorite books and I've actually read

05:46

I've read it all once Parts of it twice and I'm probably gonna finish it again and read it a third time because there's even some sections in here that I think just went over my head

05:59

Go for what I would recommend what I would recommend to to you and to other readers is is to read the footnotes because there's a lot of Side stories or extra information in there that just didn't fit into the narrative itself of the book.

06:16

So Yeah, you know everything yeah, I'm with you on that man read footnotes footnotes are

06:26

Insightful and as a matter of fact, it's funny because I actually even have some footnotes highlighted because yeah,

06:33

I'm I'm pretty big on that but Let me let me do this. So there's there's been a lot of talk about your book and I want to quote some some people

06:43

I'm talking about your book because I think it's important to to point this out.

06:48

So The the first quote I have is by Sean Garrity and he's a published author on the

06:54

Trinity Foundation and he writes He wrote this back in February February 20th.

06:59

And this this really got me excited about the book He says I'm about two -thirds through Doug's book and I have to say that he has done a masterful job

07:07

Must read the section on the Clark Ventile controversy and its fallout was excellent and corrects the

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Record regarding some of the fairy tales that have come out of out of the

07:21

Ventile camp over the years I have to think that he's going to take some heat over this which you might

07:28

But I think the work speaks for itself He goes on to say

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Clark and his supporters were were treated sinfully and they continue to be treated that way

07:39

See the OPCs treatment of the late Robert Raymond in trying to block his transfer.

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Anyway If anyone hasn't ordered a copy yet, I encourage you to do so you won't regret it and so there's a

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I mean I think I think Sean Sean is is really hitting on something that's true and That a lot of people don't understand the the

08:03

Clark Ventile controversy and there's a lot of misinformation and I I really second what he says

08:09

I think that your book is going to correct a lot of those those Misunderstandings a lot of that false information and I have another quote here

08:19

Carlos I'm not really sure who this this quote was by the one that you sent to me

08:25

Do you do you know who this quote? Yeah, that's that's one that that's a quote that I got from a former

08:32

Westminster Theological seminary student who had read my book. I believe he's been a minister for some years and we kept it anonymous because he

08:43

Basically to be anonymous. Yeah, it's a quote from someone Had heard at least parts of this story back in the day.

08:52

I think he was a seminary student in the 1970s or 80s at Westminster. Yeah, and Because yeah, he might take some heat for this, but let me read his quote

09:01

He says I'm almost finished with the Kindle version of your book. I am dumbstruck I am so grateful for your having written this and in bringing to light the real story of dr

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Clark's treatment and the powers at play in his OPC, Philly Presbyterian experience.

09:20

I Have long wanted to know the whole story as a student at Westminster Theological Seminary some years ago.

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I had conversations about the case with a few surviving members of the

09:32

Presbytery who were opposed to dr. Clark. I never imagined what was really going on in the

09:38

Clark case It was shameful the way Clark was treated and as a graduate I am saddened at complicity of some of the faculty of Westminster Theological Seminary at the time

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Endquote and so, you know, obviously this person wanted to to remain anonymous with that I think that really speaks for itself

09:58

And so Carlos you pulled up some quotes about Gordon Clark just to illustrate what these guys are talking about So I'll let you

10:06

I'll let you talk a little bit about that Yeah, sure. And before I jump right in here

10:13

Doug Congratulations. Congratulations and congratulations on your marriage your graduation and your awesome book

10:21

Sadly I have not been able to read it all yet. I've been like reading pictures of it from Tim's phone

10:28

And but I thank you for sending me a copy. We are also planning to review it on the Bible something winged up website So we are gonna do a review of it

10:36

Once I get to finish reading it But I and I really hope you can come back on the show with us again and again because we

10:43

I just I have so Much that I want to talk about with you guys About the book and I know we could do an entire episode on just unlike each of the topics that we're gonna try to cover but another thing that I want our listeners to keep in mind is that this show is definitional for us because Gordon Clark is a an extremely important part of who we are as separate from on the radio

11:07

With Tim and I when we met and we started to get to know each other Actually first read

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This is this a funny story because when the way I found out about Gordon Clark was because I was looking I was a poor college student looking for scholarship money and I was looking online for a for scholarships and I found the

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Christian worldview essay contest and so That's what drew me at first to the to the to the

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Trinity Foundation. There was basically a monetary incentive there and The first it was on 2009 when they were doing the competition or the contest on God's hammer which is a compilation of essays by by Gordon Clark about the inspiration the authority the reliability of the

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Bible and things like that and I fell in love with the book when I read it. It just like it completely turned my my

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Christianity upside down and it just it changed so much of the way that I see Understand the

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Bible and it has helped me grow the Trinity Foundation Gordon Clark has helped me grow probably then one of the ministries that has most helped me to grow and my understanding as a

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Christian and equipped me and so That beings and What Tim was talking about with respect to us going back and forth it actually it's funny because it actually wasn't that hard to convince him that Gordon Clark's method and theology was far superior than Bonson's or Van Til's or anybody of the other guys just because of Clark was just so His his his thought and his theology and his philosophy is so cogent is so clear and it's so biblical that really

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It's you once you actually read Clark and you get to Taste some of his words.

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It's really not very difficult to see How much how brilliant he was and how absolutely

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Biblical and clear and systematic he was so talking about, you know, there's a long history of Antillian's Misrepresenting the

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Clark case and misrepresenting Gordon Clark Originating in large part with Van Til himself and Doug I know in your book you cover that a lot and But I wanted to mention

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I was looking through this in preparation for the interview I was so excited that I started to like reread and read a bunch of source material

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I reread the complaint against Clark and the answer to the complaint and also was reading some some other secondary sources that were discussing the matter and So I read

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I stumbled in art. This was a few years ago when I stumbled across this article by DG Hart It's called after the breakup

13:45

Heartbreak conservative Presbyterians without a common foe and this was written in 2008

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And I think it's from the Journal of Presbyterian history. So on page 67, he says this

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About the car the Clark Van Til controversy. He says at the contested General Assemblies of 1945 1946 and 1947 the subject of the dispute over Clark was a knowledge of God and secondarily ordination procedures

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But the subtext was the denominations identity When the last votes were tail were tallied in 1947 the

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OPC repudiated Clark's understanding of the knowledge of God Rejected his candidacy for the office of minister and stood by the faculty at Westminster But these decisions came with a cost

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Clark took a post at Butler University and transferred his membership to the United Presbyterian Church of North America Meanwhile minister such a strong suck calls in the

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Presbyterian Church in the United States PC us while some Congregations left the OPC for the

14:41

Bible Presbyterian Synod, so Doug Why don't you enlighten us and tell us is this is this accurate what he said here?

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This is supposed to be like the OPC Church historian, you know He's written a bunch of books on the history of the

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OPC and stuff So, I mean did he get it right there or I mean, it's just basic factual statements, right?

14:59

Yeah, I DG Hart Teaches up at Hillsdale, I believe and I quite respect his work.

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I have his Book on Machen and a couple of his books and seen some of his writings.

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I don't really know what's going on with Some of the things he's saying there

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There's a number of issues now the first one part of what he's saying the first one being that in 47 that say

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Clark's views were repudiated or You know somehow gone against in the OPC.

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So there were study committees worth reports in the church and In a number of cases these were opposed to Clark they were never made

15:47

Official documents of the church, but I suppose I could go with him But the next statement about Gordon Clark's ordination being it wasn't he didn't use the word revoked.

15:57

I forget what word you Had there and he said yeah He said they repudiated

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Clark's understanding of the knowledge of God rejected his candidacy Candidacy for the office of minister and stood by the faculty at Westminster Yeah, that second one there is

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I'm not sure where he's getting that because that's that's not true I mean in in 1944 he was ordained.

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So the complaint came after his ordination. So he wasn't he wasn't even a candidate So he wasn't rejecting his candidates candidacy.

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He was already an ordained minister as 1944 and so as the as the controversy plays out

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It's it's a complaint against Clark's views and trying to sort of Overturned that ordination perhaps if things were to go strongly against Clark But in fact, they did not in the votes never went against Clark for a number of years the votes were in some cases within the

16:51

Presbytery of Philadelphia Presbytery in some cases within the Orthodox Presbyterian Church General Assembly Sometimes the votes were like Perfect ties and they were just you know, they'd have these stalemate conditions

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And things weren't clearing up but in no case was there ever a vote in which

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Clark was in the minority of these and Finally at the end Edmund Clowney who's was a student at Westminster Seminary and later

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Much later after the Clark controversy becomes the president at Westminster Seminary. He actually leads this the study committees and ultimately

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Brings a report out and he takes the majority. I believe it's a three to two sort of decision which is favorable to Clark Continuing his you know position an ordained minister.

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So yeah, he Clark's ordination is certainly never revoked Never rescinded and Clark leaves in 47 or Clark leaves in 48 because he's just kind of frustrated with all the all the

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Situations going on in the OPC and he says I think I can you know more

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Effectively bring the gospel to people in other connections and he joins the United Presbyterian Church But it but the mention there of 47 and in Butler is is odd to me because Clark actually took the job 1845

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While an ordained minister while in great standing in the OPC the the complaint had

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Arisen a few months prior. I think the the answer to the complaint Had sent back in with some help from his supporters in the

18:31

Philadelphia Presbytery That was you know, that was in the court But the when

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Clark took the job at Butler there wasn't any Tim to leave the

18:43

OPC or anything He wasn't taking the job because he was trying to get out of the OPC He was taking the job because he needed a job.

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He had been yeah, he had been out of work Ever since he had left Wheaton College where he had some run -ins with the faculty runs with the administration and there so you can see in the biography how it's

19:01

Connected together the Wheaton affair sort of leads to the ordination controversy within the

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OPC But yeah, those the series of errors there by DG Hart are

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Unexplained unexplainable to me. I didn't mention those in the biography. I mentioned a similar error by One of the way, there's two or three

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Vantill biographies Well in white wrote one of them and white says something similar that you know

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Clark lost his case You know, but you know, it's just like I don't know where he's getting this and I I think

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I'm I call white wishful thinking Or something. Yeah. Yeah, that's funny because I think the problem is that these guys

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Aren't reading the sources for themselves. I think they're getting this from secondhand sources Vantillian sources specifically because and this is nothing new, you know,

19:52

John Robbins also wrote And he wrote a little pamphlet called can the

19:57

Orthodox Presbyterian Church be saved and he also he criticizes numerous misrepresentations of Clark from the

20:03

Vantillians including another volume by DG Hart and and John Muther and It's funny because the reason

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Clark got kicked out of Wheaton was basically because he was too much of a Calvinist, right? I mean he was just his

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Calvinism was was just getting in the way of Of the faculty there and so they kicked him out for being too strong a

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Calvinist and ironically Robbins says that That heart and and Muther is how you say his name

20:35

Muther John Muther I say Muther, but I'm not sure Muther. Yeah In their book the fighting the good fight a brief history of the

20:44

Orthodox Presbyterian Church. They actually they basically misrepresent

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Clark's position there And and trying to accuse him of being too evangelical too broadly evangelical and not reformed enough

20:57

It's just very ironic how a lot of these very simple like statements of fact that are not even accurate

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And so this is why we are extremely Grateful and and so glad that you you've shown so much light with your biography

21:12

People read don't just read the footnotes read everything read the content read the appendices read everything and And use that as a springboard to read the rest of Clark stuff and you know stuff from the

21:24

Trinity Foundation It's just so important and people think a lot of people think that You know, what's the big deal?

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You know, why should we care? Why does this matter? Right? I mean, this is the OPC. It has what like 30 ,000 members.

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I mean, that's nothing. That's like a that's a tiny fingerprint And and considered to the rest of you know, the

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Christian world or whatever and so like why does it even matter, you know, like what is the big deal and Honestly when you think about this

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This is a massive implications for everybody not just the OPC and not just for Presbyterians Not just for people who went to Westminster or whatever

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Because these men were Towering giants of the faith these these guys were somebody to be reckoned with and they had huge Their thought had huge consequences not just on on Presbyterianism but on on Evangelicalism as a whole and so I don't know

22:19

Tim Did you want to get into something and to jump into something else right now? Or what? How did you want to go about this?

22:25

Well, I I knew that having you on was gonna be great man, because I Think you guys could probably do this whole podcast by yourselves.

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Just talking about all the Clark stuff. But yeah, I totally agree with everything you guys are saying and You know

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Carlos you said why does this matter? Well because God has given the church he's gifted the church with elders and you and I've talked about this so we shouldn't neglect or disregard the the

22:52

Teachers that God has given to us now or before and when you have when you have

23:00

Teaching as excellent as this you said it right. He's a he's a giant in the faith The way that the way that he's he's talked about it.

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Just it's it's very It upsets me to be honest with you to hear the way that he's talked about and you know

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Talking about why Clark left and and all that stuff. I mean Carlos you and I have heard dr

23:26

Scott Oliphant misrepresent Clark a number of times We believe that's to put it mildly

23:31

Yeah, that's putting it and and Carlos is actually Still in the process of writing an open letter to dr.

23:41

Scott Oliphant to correct a lot of his a lot of his

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Wrong statements about Clark. I'll just say it that way wrong statements about Clark and And so you see this coming out of the people who have the platform who are in the position of authority

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At these places they are misrepresenting Clark. And so, you know for ordinary guys like us

24:04

I mean It takes a lot of work to just read Clark for yourself and then give him a fair treatment and come away and realize why?

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Are these guys saying stuff like this? So Let's let's go ahead and get into this

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I want to ask Doug what What introduced you to Clark and then from what

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I understand you, you know, his family, you know, his daughters that I mean it says authorized biography, so this was a

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Intense labor and I really quickly just want to reference an article in the Trinity Foundation by the late

24:38

John Robbins Titled an introduction to Gordon Clark. That's a great introduction.

24:43

But what Doug has done is is phenomenal Doug has You're gonna learn a lot from from this book so Doug tell us a little bit about how you get got into Clark and just so everybody knows a

24:58

Doug do you have kids cuz Carlos and his wife have kids and I have kids with my wife.

25:04

So you might hear some screaming We're recording this around the time that we would normally be doing bedtime with our kids, so people might be hearing some some protest screams in the background, but No children over here, so the screams would be would have to be my own

25:25

I suppose That's good. So Doug tell us how did you get into Clark?

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What made you undertake this this project? What do you hope to accomplish from it? All right

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I will address that I wanted to address a couple of the things mentioned previously because I think there's some interesting things that have been said and then

25:45

I'll get on to my interest into Gordon Clark You had mentioned just a minute ago his daughters and if you if you see on the book the forward by Lois Zeller and Betsy Clark George those are or so they wrote the forward and I was able to call it the authorized biography

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Because of the permission of his two daughters in dr. Clark had two daughters.

26:12

No sons I have a chapter I call Clark's boys. Those are not his natural boys

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But those are his students who who have you know, we're called his boys and one in a certain sense so You're right very much

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Involvement with the Clark family really helped out What we really wanted to do so I was saying

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I'm I'm you know 98 % favorable to pray to that Reform tradition.

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I'm 99 % favorable to the Trinity Foundation But we wanted to I wanted to have this book be a third

26:53

Viewpoint someone coming in not really with a with a dog and the fight

26:59

Coming in. I'm just I'm doing this as a history. I'm doing it from the the

27:04

Clark's the Clark's perspective, but with their involvement and trying to aggregate all these sources from I Appreciate the

27:13

OPC historians, you know, I think I got a lot of good information from their books and I got a lot of personal

27:20

Input from Danny Olinger from John Meather. I never did speak with DG Hart, but I you know,

27:26

I spoke with a lot of people And they have been very helpful in this project so yeah, when when you you know, you meant you

27:36

Mentioned that quote from Sean Garrity that he expects that I will receive heat for this book.

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I found that interesting because one of the people I spoke to a couple times during the process of writing a book was the well -known theologian

27:51

John frame Frame was helpful. He he's one of the endorsements in the book.

27:59

He he gave me some of his recollections about him and dr. Clark I don't know if much of that got into the book the endorsement certainly is there

28:09

But when I when I asked John frame or when I brought up some of the theological questions from the controversy in the 40s frame seemed just Entirely worn out from it.

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You could tell for the last 40 years 4050 years he's been going through these conversations. You just go you want someone who's taken heat for their views

28:29

Look no further than John frame According to you know one's perspective you can say

28:36

John frame Clark himself said John frame until or you know a

28:43

Bonsonite or a Vantillian of a certain stripe might think of frame as Same way like deviating from Vantill although others think frame presents the best

28:58

Interpretation of Vantill. So anyways frame received a lot of heat. I'm quite shocked so far

29:04

I haven't really got a lot of heat from the book. I hope the book gets well read and we get more heat but it's

29:12

I think it's unavoidable when you're discussing Clark and Vantill and some of these topics

29:18

You could write anything and you're gonna get heat. So it's gonna happen Somebody's there.

29:24

Somebody's probably already already writing a nasty piece against me So we'll wait for it to show up Thing I wanted to mention before I before I'll talk about my history here with Gordon Clark is

29:41

Carlos had mentioned the Rereading the complaint and the answer to important 1940s in the in the controversy in the biography also,

29:53

I've included a previously unknown document to unknown to the world of Gordon Clark's own writing during the controversy

30:03

It's called studies in the doctrines of the complaint Written in it's listed on the top of winter 1946 47 so sometime in that period is is when he was working on it and wrote it and It was a tight a typed up document that he sent to some of the ministers

30:19

I found it both in dr Clark's personal collection of papers and also in the Westminster Seminary archives or with another copy

30:27

Received by one of the ministers. So that document will shed more light on the controversy and is one of the very important Documents for a historian looking into the case

30:41

That's why I that's why you need to read the appendix read the appendices, too It's very important for you to read the whole book.

30:48

I mean, it is just full of good stuff Yes, I actually have the introduction highlighted.

30:54

So yes, you need to read So tell us how you got involved with Clark Studying His work and then for those who may not be familiar with Clark Tell us a little bit about who

31:11

Clark was Yeah, I came across Clark after a Series of more and more aggressive readings

31:22

For a stronger defense of the Christian faith reading through a lot of Elvin planting our planting has some nice as well as William Lane Craig Hugh Ross reading into Libertarianism a lot of Ron Paul read just about everything of his everything of Ayn Rand and then after this period

31:47

Really didn't see a lot in secular philosophy. That was of much interest and I was looking for a good

31:52

Christian critique of Rand and I came across without a prayer a book by John Robbins Subtitles it

32:03

Ayn Rand and the close of her system Borrowing it. He's borrowing a title from an old economics book it was a critique of Karl Marx, I believe and I can't remember who wrote it was it

32:21

Overk, I can't remember. Maybe you guys know That I actually did not know that that's very interesting

32:26

Yeah, Robbins, you know had studied the Libertarians and the Austrian Economists he had studied under Han Sen holds the

32:35

Christian Economist and of the Austrian school at Grove City And I was very interested in the

32:42

Austrian school of economics which in fact has some similarities to Clark's thought which is fascinating but so I read

32:50

John Robbins critique of Rand and I that pretty much said, okay No more that obviously that's a dead end and I appreciated

32:59

Robbins critique and then at the end of his book, he has a little picture of Gordon Clark and And he writes in there

33:08

Calvinist philosopher Gordon Clark, you know, he's the greatest man who has ever lived Like overdone

33:19

Keep of praise that Robbins would do for Clark and I said, okay, whatever Calvinism that's scary.

33:25

You know, I was a Lutheran. I grew up Luther and I was Lutheran all the time I became a

33:30

Presbyterian through Gordon Clark's work and through other Presbyterians But at the time I read that a scary

33:36

Calvinism and you're overly praising this guy Put it aside didn't think about it.

33:45

And then, you know, maybe a year later. I was looking for Christian philosophy And I came across Gordon Clark's Introduction to Christian philosophy that book

33:58

Giving him a chance because I'd heard his name once before from it Robbins critique of the brand

34:04

And it was it was in that book and I just I really didn't understand a lot of it the first time but I realized something was going on there because I wasn't getting this

34:14

Elvin Plantinga type of Defense of theism, which is essentially what reformed epistemology is its defense of theism

34:24

I was seeing something authentically Christian and Juggling some thoughts in my own mind that where would

34:31

I start? You know, the Bible says the fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge That was if I was gonna create some kind of axiom.

34:39

That was what was going on in my mind I was trying to develop some type of epistemology and then finally I ran into Clark and I said the truth of the scriptures and so I Grew more and more fascinated with his theory of knowledge his epistemology more aggressively and over a period of four years read

35:02

All or just about all of Gordon Clark's books. He wrote over 40 books and Started thinking that a lot of the books are critiques of other views and only a short bit

35:17

Is his positive construction at the end? He'll call it a Christian construction And so I said, why don't we compile all these into one place have a compendium of what he actually said on his

35:29

Christian views So people don't have to read 40 books well, I Started working on that and it was just very soon that I realized

35:39

The historic context is very important I think a biography is gonna be much more well -received and will help explain the historical context of Gordon Clark's thought which it's his epistemology that fascinates me and continues to this day

35:56

To fascinate me and I'm still working on Related topics But he you know brought me into a world of the

36:05

Westminster Confession and that's you know By calling the book the Presbyterian philosopher and showing in there how

36:12

Clark emphasizes the Westminster Confession I Wanted to do and showing that Clark was a theologian and a philosopher of the

36:21

Presbyterian faith Not really coming up with anything new. I'm repeating what

36:26

Augustine said and what has been Put together by the divines at Westminster So maybe that gives a little maybe that answers your second question, too

36:35

You know, what is Gordon Clark's thought or who is who is he's obviously the Presbyterian philosopher

36:42

Yeah, let's let's get into that. So in your book you write that that there are two

36:49

Man, you got it. Is it is it? Yeah as you can tell Everybody in my house is excited about Gordon Clark and what we're doing here.

36:57

So Cheering it on But no, and I actually

37:03

I'm also very glad that yeah, I think it is getting bedtime But I'm very glad you made the decision to write the biography as well because you know

37:12

His theology is there if you want to see it, it's there, you know, the Trinity Foundation has published the majority of it

37:19

It's it's already there. And I think this is far. This was something that really needed to get more exposure and to really kind of uncover all of the layers of misunderstandings and misrepresentations of century of the you know, the not centuries the the decades of History that has been piled on top of it.

37:40

So I'm very glad that that that was your decision to write this biography and it's it's already making a huge impact

37:47

So that's awesome. Yeah, so The book is not without without that because you do get into its theology in the book so I want everybody to know that mom and From what

37:59

I got you gave a very very good overview of Clark's theology In chapter 5 you you it's the origin of presuppositional ism

38:09

So let's go ahead and talk about that you say that that Clark's view was influenced by by two main factors

38:17

One was the the rejection of empiricism and to the acceptance of worldview thinking and nowadays most presuppositional is

38:28

You hear them talk about worldviews well my worldview can do this you're you know your worldview can't and so This is interesting because you actually in your book

38:38

Which I didn't know you said that that Clark may have been influenced by by ventile and Presuppositional ism and I think you stated that he started to read

38:50

Kuiper and another another person besides Kuiper Because that's who ventile was being influenced by so can you just tell us a little bit more about that?

39:01

Yeah, the one of the challenges is that the historical record is quite lacking

39:07

So what is in that chapter is almost the extent of what I was able to surmise from this

39:14

But but I'm really surprised that there hasn't been really written something like the origins of presuppositional ism before now there is a

39:23

PhD dissertation by Timothy McConnell out ventiles

39:30

Sort of origins of presuppositional ism. It's you know focusing just on him and it shows that ventile was influenced by Abraham Kuiper and Herman Herman Bovink and really in this in this

39:43

Dutch tradition and So as far as Clark's with a ventile early on They you know, they were members together of the reforming movement within the old

39:57

Presbyterian Church within the PC USA the Northern Presbyterian Church, and they lived in together in the same city of Philadelphia they both

40:06

Is with J. Gresham Machen and so they had this connection in this in this small circle of sort of the the elite intellectuals of the

40:18

Presbyterian conservative Presbyterians So as far as when they first meet it's they certainly knew each other by the early 1930s

40:28

They were together their their names are on on the header of Letters together they were both members of the

40:38

Reformation Fellowship seeking reform within the PC USA So they started

40:44

When they started writing, there's a few extant letters between them in 1937 and 38

40:51

At which time Gordon Clark was already using some of van Til's Till would call his syllabi is his classroom notes

40:59

Clark was already using those for some of his courses at Wheaton College and And so they had this connection

41:06

John frame also Recalls that he was told that that Clark and van

41:12

Till would walk together In the 30s when they both lived there So Clark leaves for Wheaton in 36 and then the letters between the two men start

41:22

And so you don't really know what happens before a lot of things in Clark's life It's hard to know what happens before 36 because he's not writing a lot of letters

41:31

But there is a letter in the van Till collection written in 1941 or 42 which might be wrong on that date, but it says that Opposed to Gordon Clark at the foundation of the church.

41:47

So that was in 1936 when the when the OPC was founded So the complaint against Clark 44 was eight years after the foundation of the church ready in 1936

42:03

Clark and van Till knew each other Probably had had discussions realized some differences and you can see in the letters van

42:12

Till's frustration with with Clark at one point van Till writes to someone saying

42:18

I I explained this issue to Gordon Clark and he just Brushed it off with a wave of the hand

42:24

You know like then Till was like, you know, I had I had Clark over at my house or something Let me just imagine how much one of us today would have

42:33

That conversation between Clark and van Till discussing the role of The place of Greek thought

42:42

Greek philosophy well and and so in your book you also point out that when when

42:49

Gordon Clark That he was actually surprised because he anticipated that he when he was

42:58

Putting in his application for And by the way, I mean you've studied this stuff extensively

43:04

I've read your book like I've read a few chapters twice. So I might if you have to correct me just correct me

43:12

You you said that he was a that he was surprised because he didn't garner support from van

43:20

Till and some of the other faculty members when he was Applying for his his ordination and Let me see if I can read

43:30

Okay, so on chapter 6 Origins of the ordination controversy.

43:37

I'm gonna go ahead and read this this page. This is a quote by Clark and he says as you know as active during the early 30s in Arousing USA congregations to the seriousness of the apostasy in that church

43:53

I had a hand in the Reformation Fellowship and its successor the poorly named

44:00

Presbyterian Constitutional Covenant Union not only did I speak in Pennsylvania But I traveled as far as in this effort then in 1936.

44:11

I had the honor of giving the nomination for nomination speech for dr Machen for the next seven or eight years

44:19

I taught in Wheaton where I recommended with some success that Ministerial students attend

44:25

Westminster rather than Dallas or elsewhere This led to my forced resignation

44:31

Because of my continuing interest in this work I decided to apply for ordination to my utter astonishment instead of being welcomed

44:38

I met hostility it was I who with two others Brought charges of heresy against the

44:46

Auburn Affirmationists when the Westminster faculty excused themselves my reaction was not so much anger, but other stupid stupefaction and Confusion and so you go on to point out that Paul Woolley was another one that Clark was was friends with him and Ventile had actually spoken favorably of Clark Yeah, there's there's so many fascinating connections here because because until Gordon Clark's father died in 1939 he was on the

45:20

Board of Directors Theological some very Gordon Clark's father was David Scott Clark really so So that you know the

45:30

Clark's are tied in there with the seminary and then in 1941 This is three years before the complaint comes up against Clark Gordon Clark gives the commencement speech at Westminster So, I mean this is the man and who has high respect in the church as you mentioned in that quote for Gordon Clark with two other men

45:53

Griffith's was Machin's Council, I think it's Griffith's and then Thompson who is this

46:00

Sort of aggressive character later becomes like strongly pro -vantillian in the controversy Murray Forrest Thompson Bring charges of heresy against pastors in Philadelphia and the case ends up Sort of failing in some committee but the but as I know in the book the important thing is that Clark and these two guys are doing this when the faculty at Westminster in much more prominent position is not doing these same types of Moves against the liberals in the church

46:37

Carlos did you you were you were talking about? Last night in our conversation you were talking about the the the

46:45

Clark Bent Hill controversy and what you thought were maybe some of the motives in trying to Stall Clark or prevent him from being ordained

46:56

Do you wanna do you have anything to add to that? Yeah, absolutely And this is something that we have shed a lot of cyber blood on Especially on Facebook's I'm particular.

47:09

Yeah, because you know, there's so much there's just so much misinformation and strong opinions on Frankly on both sides, but they're in particular like when you know,

47:21

Tim I'm sure you remember we've gotten we've gone through a lot of back and forths with people Particular from the

47:29

Vantillian side, they just have a very wrong view of Clark and of what actually happened. And so The the thing about that that's interesting.

47:39

Actually, I don't know if you're if this is what you're referring to Doug But but when they brought those charges those three men with or those two men with Clark My understanding was that that was actually they were laying charges against some people who were teaching

47:52

Who subscribe to the Auburn Avenue theology? Is that right? No, there's there's a you want to make a distinction there the this is referring to the

48:01

Auburn affirmationists the Auburn affirmation The Auburn affirmation came out in 1924 and it was a a pro modernism or pro -liberalism document that was opposed to the five fundamentals of the church the

48:17

The other one you mentioned the Auburn Avenue theology I believe starts in the 1990s or sometime later and that's related to the federal vision movement.

48:25

So those are two separate But I would say both wrong Yes, okay, but that's a good point of clarification.

48:33

But yeah, so I've read a lot about this I've I've been really just done a lot of my own kind of research whenever I've had time to to look over this stuff and It's really interesting because when

48:46

I as I was rereading the complaint, what was the original question Tim? That we were

48:53

You were talking about how I guess the the People that were that were aligned with Venteel all came from the same camp if you remember the oh, right

49:05

Yeah, and it's quite interested I'm interested in what Tim had said before which is you know, what?

49:12

What do you think Carlos on? The I think is sort of related to the causes of the controversy controversy, why did the complaint get brought up?

49:21

Against Clark and you know, I spent a chapter of this in the book, but I believe you haven't read that portion

49:27

And so I'm interested in your opinion Without having been biased by my writing.

49:32

I'd like to know what do you think? Yeah, you know

49:38

I put together I I think that there was certainly in one of the four Or five issues

49:44

I bring up one of them completely never talked about Some of the others have been mentioned in various places perhaps but It's been somewhat challenging perhaps in the book.

49:59

I don't specify to what degree each of these factors was The factor although I do mention one which

50:08

I do believe is the main factor So I you know, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on it having without having my bias

50:16

Very that's very interesting. And actually a lot of the source material that I read I think

50:21

I actually got from you because you know the way we all kind of met well not Tim Tim I met personally, but we kind of all met on Facebook.

50:29

I guess there's there's some Clarkian Facebook groups and Devoted to you know talking about Clark's thought and things like that, which has been very helpful

50:38

In many ways and I remember you having during your research you did a lot of research and you were posting a lot of source material like from the

50:48

Presbyterian Guardian, which I believe was the What was that? It was like a paper or the periodical the

50:55

OPC periodical or something like that? yeah, the Presbyterian Guardian similar to the

51:02

Westminster Theological Seminary are the Unofficial arms of the OPC. So the the

51:08

Guardian was not the official OPC paper, but every person who wrote for it was in the OPC The majority the majority of the seminary was led by OPC bed

51:17

So it's it was some sort of way to say that we are, you know independent or not liable for one for the other

51:25

But who's you know, essentially connected? Yeah, so that's interesting and you know,

51:31

I'm gonna I'm gonna preface this with we are you know Tim and I we are unabashedly Unashamedly Clarkian and so I'm with my the next few statements that I'm gonna make

51:42

I'm probably gonna step on all of the Vantillion toes at the same time. So Because when

51:48

I and this this really struck me because when I reread The complaint and the answer

51:53

I was actually astonished. I was actually completely shocked at how frankly how pharisaical

52:02

The the Westminster faction that that was complained against Clark was it was one of the

52:10

Honestly, I the way I see it now is if you want to look at a good example of how modern -day

52:16

Pharisees would look like just read the complaint against Clark because it just astonished me how these guys were swallowing camels and gagging at gnats to try to pick

52:27

Clark apart and Get rid of him from not let him have a foot in the

52:32

LPC and so it really astonished me because you can tell from reading the complaint that These guys were looking at anything to try to grab they were trying to pick

52:43

It's like when the when you read in the New Testament and how the Pharisees were just kind of following Jesus along and looking for something to trip him up on That's the impression that I was getting when

52:52

I was reading the complaint and how they were finding Every sort of little technical rabbit philosophical theological rabbit trail to try to pin

53:01

Clark and It really just it's shameful like it really is shameful the way that these men conducted themselves against Clark and how the the subsequent people who who who celebrate this event as a triumph of Van Teel's from from the

53:19

Van Teel side and how he was able to Solidify and define the Reformed identity of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church, but it's really kind of sad because the way these men behaved was just it was one of the worst displays of Pharisee ism and Theological gnat gagging that I've ever read about in my life

53:38

And so and I don't and I really honestly don't say those words lightly And this is what we do at simple referendum radio.

53:44

You know just just a little caveat there. We like to do things We are polemical and polarizing

53:51

Jesus style so You can take that for what it is But the thing the thing about this it looks like you really get the impression that these guys were going after Clark They did not want him in there now.

54:03

Why they did why didn't they want him in there? Basically, they had a very different idea a very particular idea of this is my understanding of what

54:12

Reformed theology is and what the Reformed identity of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church should be and Their identity their identity was very colored apparently from the

54:22

Dutch Reformed theology Which it was interesting when I was reading David J. And Gelsman's are a review of your book

54:29

He actually brought something up that I didn't I wasn't even aware of that the men who?

54:35

Complained against Clark a lot of them were part of the CRC which is a Christian Reformed Dutch church and so they had this element of sort of like this mystical irrational branch of theology that comes through like Bob Inc and and guys like that that has like very irrational elements in in how they they talk about the incomprehensibility of God and and And things that were basically brought up in the complaint against Clark And so I think they reckon and I've read

55:08

John Robbins is a you know Can the Orthodox Presbyterian Church be saved and he talks about how? They they didn't want

55:15

Clark Because Well, you know there were differences obviously his apologetic method was different his they also

55:24

Recognized his influence in Wheaton as it as a very effective teacher. And so because they were at odds with him they didn't want him to Undermine their influence

55:35

I guess but one of the big reasons that actually probably the main reason that Robbins points out is that this became an issue of ecclesiastical

55:45

And seminary Control and he argued he claims that actually in the reading the source material too

55:54

You see that the men who there was a thing called a program for action I think that they talk about that because of the the attacks that were launched against Clark that they wrote a program for action and And they what they wanted to do was make the seminary subservient to the oversight

56:12

Of the OPC But the Westminster faction they wanted to gain they wanted to stay autonomous and not and actually gain control of the

56:21

OPC so that they would not be so because they wanted to retain their autonomy and their control and so Honestly, this sounds like a scene from the

56:31

New Testament With the Pharisees having all of this elitist religious control and you have like, you know

56:38

Jesus and the Apostles and these prophets who are like Telling you what you know the truth as it is and then these guys are just scrambling

56:47

Frantically to try to get rid of this guy So it that's basically the impression that I got once I reread

56:53

I didn't realize how bad it looked and how bad it actually was when I until I read it again and I was just astonished at how the most ridiculous accusations that they leveled against Clark and so that's basically my understanding of it that the primary cause was

57:06

The Westminster faction did not want to be controlled by the OPC and so they wanted to retain that autonomy and Because of this program for action and actually specified that they wanted to ordain

57:16

Clark To do justice to him, but also they were hoping to there was plans to nominate him to for the seminary

57:24

To teach at the seminary and so and and at the same time make the the the seminary subservient to the

57:31

Orthodox Presbyterian Church So, how did I do? Got You you've got the outline there.

57:38

You know, it's it's that's pretty impressive the extent to which you Understand this the situation without having read what

57:46

I've written. So I'm really excited about You getting to read these chapters. Yeah You know,

57:53

I've got some I've got a lot of primary source material there

58:00

By some of the things you said and help you Probably build more nuances on on these things as well.

58:09

I don't think anything you said is wrong But I think you'll continue to learn more things there as I did when

58:15

I went through those records I was just thinking about now and when you were saying this, you know, this this sort of Control of the seminary this type of approach

58:24

There's some similarities between What between what's going on here against Clark and what went on just seven years prior with the split between the

58:33

Orthodox? Presbyterians and the Bible Presbyterians It was some of these same issues come up and Alan McRae the

58:42

New Testament professor leaves Over these over some of these issues and you know along with him, of course

58:48

Carl McIntyre J. Oliver Buswell and then well Francis Schaeffer who was just a student at the time, but becomes more well -known later

58:58

So yeah, there's a role of the Bible Presbyterians in this story is fascinating as well

59:04

And I do mention them in a few places But it's important to see Sort of I think as you're saying

59:12

How were People treated in the OPC if they didn't agree

59:19

With then till and the majority of the faculty where where were they placed in the church and in Clark and others would say you know, you're happy for us to be in the church, but as soon as we ask for a position of Leadership that we get rejected

59:38

And you know what? You said something right now Doug that was That I wanted to comment on Because in your book you point out that Clark wasn't the only one who deviated theologically

59:55

From from them as a matter of fact, they had actually ordained I was at Woolley that you said

01:00:01

Paul Woolley who's a Yeah, okay right here. You write on page 86

01:00:07

You say Clark was not the only figure in the OPC who had views at variance with the

01:00:12

Westminster Theological WTS faculty there was a large diversity of views across the ministers of the young denomination

01:00:22

But these views these views were tolerated as long as they were kept sufficiently private and yeah, so it seems like and so that they even know who was it you say

01:00:38

Just above that and if the authors of the complaint were opposed only to Clark's theological position

01:00:44

In order to be consistent, they would have to have they would have to they would have had to oppose other

01:00:52

Ordinations as well Pointing this out OPC missionary Henry Corey Wrote to Ventile quote it has been suggested that a graduate named

01:01:04

Francis how do you say that name? Do you know? Who who accepts dr.

01:01:11

Clark's apologetic I understand passed through Presbyterian without any objections on the part of those who blocked

01:01:18

Clark this would seem to be an inconsistency if the case against Clark was on apologetic grounds and so it seems that Clark was such a a polarizing figure, but he was he was an intellectual giant and he he posed a threat to what they wanted to accomplish and So that's why because it's not it's not it wasn't just the in your book

01:01:47

What I'm getting is and you can comment on this stuff correct me if I'm wrong But it wasn't just that he differed theologically because there were other people who got through Without any problem who had his same view who also differed theologically but the fact that Clark was was a force to be reckoned with and They might actually lose influence or control in in the organization

01:02:10

Yeah, Clark was certainly Influencing a lot of students. I mentioned in the book how many large percentage of the

01:02:18

Westminster Theological Seminary students were former students of Gordon Clark's at there were times where this was you know,

01:02:29

I Forget the numbers, you know, it's more than a quarter of this student body where's Clark students and and so I comment

01:02:36

You know, even if the faculty Views firsthand they knew them secondhand from his students and so it had been dealing with those issues

01:02:46

That that quote that you had just mentioned from Henry Coray full of Situations where ministers write to Van Till and they're and they're friends of until they're favorable to him but they say things like You really better be persuasive here because if you don't have a solid case against Clark It's gonna look really bad

01:03:10

So right or here Coray writes, you know, this looks like it's inconsistent.

01:03:16

Why are you? You know putting this complaint against Clark for having this view We just passed the other guy last week or you know, whatever it was

01:03:23

We just let the other guy get through and he's got the same views So, you know if it's if it's a matter of principle

01:03:31

You know if it were just a matter of theological principle This wouldn't there wouldn't be this inconsistency

01:03:38

So there's there's something else going on here more than just the theological positions, right?

01:03:44

And that's what Carlos. Yeah, that's what Carlos was trying to say is that they were reaching at Nats to try to stop him

01:03:51

Yeah. Yeah, I think I think that you're You're correct.

01:03:57

You're looking in the right directions for Carlos, you know, I was looking in the right directions.

01:04:03

I say Tim is correct, but Tim's read my book So I'm just be saying I'm correct Carlos and I have had these conversations prior

01:04:13

We've talked about this stuff for years. I but but yeah your book goes into into There's so much more in here

01:04:22

Then Then I realized but let me uh, well Doug did you want to say anything more on that?

01:04:29

Because I want to take us to the next section Clark's contributions

01:04:35

No, I don't want to get into any more heat Yeah So, yeah, if anybody wants to hate mail to us it's a

01:04:46

D -o -u -g Okay, I'm gonna give them your email no,

01:04:52

I'm just kidding but Yeah, no and I do I do want to make this we will gladly take the the heat

01:05:00

You know, we if you have an issue email us at semper .reformanda .radio

01:05:05

at gmail .com We will take you to task. No problem. I think that there's that Robbie's personality coming out and you right now you know, and it's it's really interesting because Yeah, I'm just I'm just really excited

01:05:22

So, yeah, and I know you wanted to talk you're gonna talk about Clark's theological contributions

01:05:27

But if you could also Doug just give us kind of like a brief introduction as to the man himself

01:05:33

Where he came from who he was. Why don't we start with the fact that he was the the son of a son of a

01:05:38

Presbyterian minister Yeah, that's how I start off the biography in the first chapter called the

01:05:44

Presbyterian heritage of Gordon Clark Where I note that not only was his father a

01:05:51

Presbyterian minister who led a prominent church in Philadelphia and taught at two colleges there and wrote theological books

01:06:03

Grandfather who his father's father who was a Presbyterian minister as well and Going back you can even find that his great -grandfather was a was a ruling elder in the church.

01:06:14

So They come out of Scotland they have this Presbyterian heritage and Clark grows up there in Philadelphia sort of in the center of these

01:06:24

Presbyterian controversies as the fundamentalist modernist controversy in the 1920s rages and he's a student at the

01:06:32

University of Pennsylvania and At this time he's putting together a chapter of the

01:06:38

League of Evangelical students Which is sort of like a campus crusade club or inner varsity

01:06:44

Connected with these guys such that he's able to write to Jay Gratia Machen and say

01:06:50

I would like you to come speak and He actually in 1928 gets

01:06:55

Machen to stop over and speak. He's Graduate student.

01:07:02

Yeah, it's in his graduate student years Clark spends Well a long time at the

01:07:07

University of Pennsylvania. He gets his undergraduate degree there in French Stays there gets a

01:07:13

PhD Philosophy and then in the meanwhile having taken a break in 1927 to study in Heidelberg, Germany and then again in 1930

01:07:25

He spends six months at the Sorbonne in Paris Studying Probably it seems to me.

01:07:33

He's there to study under a particular philosopher in the tradition of Plotinus which who was a interest of Clark's in Greek philosophy.

01:07:43

And so that's Clark's background there He stays that for some more years

01:07:48

But never gets promoted. He's he retained he remains a Instructor rather than an associate or assistant professor and this sort of upsets him he's

01:08:01

His Continued work in the in the in the church is

01:08:06

I think upsetting people at the university as well because Clark is promoting these This schism.

01:08:13

Well, not schism. I mean this this, you know reformed conserving conservative movement in the church which leads to the formation of the

01:08:21

Orthodox Presbyterian Church, so Clark then goes to Wheaton College Butler for 28 years teaches at Covenant College for 10 years and teaches in the summers at Winona Lake School of Theology and at San Greta Cristo Seminary and Occasionally at some other places and in this in this period of time

01:08:44

He writes over 40 books. He's one of the regular contributors to a very popular

01:08:52

Christianity Today magazine Journal He's a very busy man.

01:08:57

I mean he for for some of these years. He was the the pastor of small to moderate sized church all while being a professional

01:09:10

Philosophy professor that that's his main job and and I've sort of worked on a speech I'm trying to get down to Covenant College at some point to give a speech on Gordon H.

01:09:19

Clark as an educator. The reality is that was his primary job. He taught in the university for 60 years from 1924 to 1984 and so was known by many people as a philosophy professor and Yeah, but always always involved in the church as much as possible, you know founding member of the

01:09:41

Evangelical Theological Society you know involved in a number of Presbyterian denominations due to Circumstances mostly out of his control only one time does he or two times?

01:09:53

Does he sort of? leave a denomination or change affiliation on his Sometimes the whole denomination goes

01:10:02

Goes liberal or whatever circumstances happen. But yeah Clark as I say in one

01:10:10

Involved at least some way if not a prominent way in most all of the

01:10:17

Presbyterian Church and schisms splits within the 20th century and in American Presbyterianism.

01:10:25

So, you know anything from the PC USA the big liberal church to the tiny OPC to the

01:10:33

Movement of the Reform Presbyterian Church, which eventually becomes part of the

01:10:38

PCA Clark was involved in all these places Fascinating you mentioned that Clark taught until 1984, which

01:10:47

I believe that was a year before he died, right? That's right. Yeah He died in 1985 and he had last taught just nine months prior to that in the summer of 84 his last courses were at Sangre de

01:11:02

Cristo seminary just prior to that he had taught his last courses at Covenant College in the spring

01:11:10

I believe of 1984 And then he packed his bags moved to Colorado permanently rather than just calling it a summer visit

01:11:20

Stayed out there failed his driver's license test First time he ever failed a test

01:11:27

He gives up driving spends the last period of his life continuing to write furiously as John Robbins Presses him to write more and Clark presses

01:11:42

Robbins to publish as fast as he can and As hard as they can with each other

01:11:48

Yeah, this actually gives me an opportunity to mention that with the help of some other individuals

01:11:54

Jaime Rodriguez own Errol Ng, I believe is how you pronounce his last name of Completed the the known collection of Gordon H.

01:12:05

Clark's write letters 915 letters and section of these about 200 of these well

01:12:13

I think it's 145 of these are being put together in a volume called the selected letters of Gordon had it and Clark which published by the

01:12:22

Trinity Foundation Wow, that is awesome. Very likely this year.

01:12:28

So it's currently being edited At the Trinity Foundation. I've given them my sort of final compiled version

01:12:35

You know, I really appreciate you going into the history of or just just who he was and Because I just got to mention this

01:12:46

Going back to a lot of the misinformation. I've heard dr. Scott elephant say that if one of his criticisms was that Clark misunderstood

01:12:57

Bentele because Clark wasn't If he had understood the reformed tradition better, he would have understood what

01:13:03

Bentele was saying And one of the things that you point out was he was a third -generation

01:13:09

Presbyterian minister he Thoroughly understood the reformed tradition.

01:13:16

And so I really appreciated reading that that part in your book I want to I want to end with this

01:13:22

I want to talk about you have a section in here the theological contributions of Gordon Clark and You you list out four so I'll read the goal of this chapter is to explain four of Gordon Clark's significant doctrinal contributions

01:13:38

Namely, these are one an axiomized epistemological system to Theological super lapsarianism three a solution to the problem of evil for arguments for a return

01:13:59

That's My time to go to bed alarm not this night, baby.

01:14:06

All right for arguments for Arguments for return to traditional logic and I'd imagine that this was probably a difficult chapter to write just on the grounds of I think it would be difficult to Identify only four of Clark's contributions and I know that you talk about others, but How did you come up with these four particular contributions because Carlos and I were talking about it and Carlos the one that I would have thought of was his his view of defining faith and And Carlos you had a you had another contribution that you that you thought of right?

01:14:51

What was it? Yeah, well and I from what we talked about Tim I don't have the book with me but you do talk about these other contributions and the fact that Clark had numerous theological contributions and One of the other major ones that I think he had was this

01:15:06

Christology and I know I actually read your chapter Doug on it you had a brief chapter on discussing his his theology of personhood and and the

01:15:15

Trinity and Christology and I honestly think that is one of the greatest contributions that Clark has blessed the church with because if people the church if the church capitalizes on that it will be able to solidify the

01:15:29

Christian position incredibly In a very powerful way and and also in an extremely relevant way

01:15:37

Specifically, you know, I listened to James White a lot and the dividing line in his in this podcast and he taught he's an apologist in large part now to Muslims and this

01:15:49

Christology that Clark has developed and and really basically an extension of the

01:15:55

Chalcedonian and the historic Christology, I know a lot of people have challenged him on that have slandered him on that and accused him of Nestorianism about that But I think that is one of the greatest contributions and it will greatly help the church to engage and to develop their apologetics for opposing sides like Islam in particular and so but I know even the fact that the fact that Gordon Clark was a

01:16:22

Christian and a philosopher was a monumental contribution to the Christian Faith because in in in the

01:16:29

Trinity Foundation and the stuff I've read from Robbins and from Clark is that you get the problem in a lot of the history of the church is that there was

01:16:38

Competent philosophers were very much lacking throughout the history of the church I mean you have

01:16:43

Augustine at the beginning. He was a very influential guy but then it's it's really kind of hard to find once you and that's one of the things that they that The guys

01:16:54

I think Robbins laments the fact that the Reformation never really produced a a reformed philosopher per se

01:17:01

They had outstanding theologians But that element of philosophy that there's always been like a sort of gap there in some ways and how

01:17:10

I mean They got most of it was there because by you have the truth in the Bible, you know You have the word but the fact that Clark was so well grounded in philosophy

01:17:18

I think helped him to properly engage the opposing views and to establish the

01:17:23

Christian faith Knowing what he knows about the problems in philosophy. So yeah, it was funny

01:17:29

Doug because last night I told Carlos I said I want to go over these these this chapter talking about Gordon Clark's contributions and I read them to him and Carlos was like what he didn't write about the the

01:17:42

Trinity and the incarnation. I was like no he did he did He dedicated a whole chapter to that. So I had to send him a screenshot of the pages and that was just for this interview because Carlos is buying a book from you

01:17:58

I'm not I'm not doing a wait Piracy yeah, there's no piracy involved here.

01:18:05

But yeah, you're allowed to take a certain portion. Yeah Yeah, and that was just for this.

01:18:11

I just couldn't wait. Yeah, I just couldn't wait But can you can you go ahead and just speak to this how did you were these were these

01:18:21

Contributions. Did you come up with these? I think it's hard to to just name four

01:18:27

Or and and then can you just speak to this? Yeah, I think you guys have pointed out a couple of important things one as Tim said there's lots of contributions and as Carlos said

01:18:40

There's there's a very interesting Dialogue here on the

01:18:46

Trinity and on the incarnation is the two terms Clark uses as you were saying Christology which is basically the incarnation the question of right then you're of Christ and so I spent a chapter on the

01:19:03

Trinity and the incarnation and Clark's definition of persons and discussed some of that issue and Then of course

01:19:13

I spent three chapters on the Controversy with Van Til and so there's four theological issues at least four theological issues there, you know, certainly a lot more implied and so there's contributions there after earlier on on the origins of presuppositional ism and Clark's 1946 on Christian philosophy of education is where in in a published book format you see first some of Clark's presuppositional ism in Yeah, very fascinating very important arguments there

01:19:54

Those are certainly Contributions of Gordon Clark there. They're out there.

01:20:00

They're important Discussions this chapter on for theological contributions in some sense

01:20:10

Some of these are maybe overlooked. I would say the question on logic is quite not talked about as much as it probably should be

01:20:18

Although logic itself is discussed a lot in connection with Clark You know, particularly his controversial statement that in the beginning was the logic, you know

01:20:28

If you right if someone brings that up first, you know, they're probably Upset about Gordon Clark saying that These four issues,

01:20:38

I think the first one acts the axiomatized epistemological system this is a sort of this is an outworking of the presuppositional ism or Bringing it to its ultimate conclusion and it comes out of Clark's 1966

01:20:53

Wheaton lectures and he gave three lectures at Wheaton in 66 or 65

01:21:00

I keep forgetting that and Comes up with this idea that or extends this idea that Christianity must be in a sense like geometry that you have postulates that must be given and then you have theorems that are

01:21:16

Deduced derived from those postulates and so for Clark the Bible as the Word of God is the postulate and everything else is a theorem that it and so That's the first issue which

01:21:28

I think in my interest in Clark's epistemology I think that is the greatest issue of what

01:21:34

Clark is doing and if anything is going to be discussed about Gordon Clark, it should be as epistemology, but It's is a system.

01:21:43

So the question of logic is tied in there and teleological superlapsarianism is

01:21:52

Something that has probably been said by a few other people before Clark But maybe not as clearly as he's saying it who read and understand that it suddenly strikes you that the superlapsarian infralops arian debate is

01:22:13

Is really often the wrong directions that Clark has an answer that just so clear you say why you know

01:22:19

Why isn't everyone been saying this? Yeah And then Clark's Solution to the problem of evil.

01:22:26

There's a book that the Trinity Foundation put out called Problem solved

01:22:32

I think your God and evil problem solved and it's actually taken a chapter out of Clark's reason religion and revelation

01:22:38

Making it its own book Well problem solved which is quite an audacious title and you read that book

01:22:44

It's a short little book and if you blink you'll miss Clark solution He puts it in there about one sentence and then you go wait what what

01:22:53

I missed it But that solution actually comes up before that book out of out of reason religion and revelation, which

01:23:02

I believe came out in 72 or somewhere around there Clark actually had the ideas much earlier in his article on determinism and responsibility way back in The 20s or 1932 some of these dates are skipping out of my mind now

01:23:19

You know you write these books, and then like they get published a couple years later, and you've forgotten everything Yeah, you know that's funny.

01:23:26

I wish I had that problem We haven't published anything yet, so yeah

01:23:31

Well, it's a you know you spend you spend so much time at the end of a book where you're just you're just talking to a publisher and just editing and proofreading and proofreading and proofreading and You've forgotten some of what you've done

01:23:44

Mark's solution to the problem of evil comes all the way back in I believe 1932 Evangelical quarterly in London and he writes there on a solution to the problem of evil which is

01:23:58

Essentially to read it for yourself and then read the book as well So yeah, these are these are four important theological contributions of his

01:24:10

Some of them may be overlooked Perhaps some of them are the most important in the book itself.

01:24:17

I pretty much did overlook that Definition of faith which

01:24:23

Clark Goes into did you know identifying faith in a two -part rather than three -part?

01:24:32

Definition and that is very important. I've written about that recently on my blog

01:24:39

Yeah, it's one of many issues that just couldn't fit in the book, but I'm I'm happy that we kept the book at About 300 pages, so we got it to a length where a publisher would print it.

01:24:50

I don't want to have You know the full compendium of everything Gordon Clark ever said you know try to You know be like Gary North or something and you know print off 30 volumes

01:25:02

Cover it Yeah, well um all right, so here's here's what we're gonna.

01:25:10

Do we are Let me let me go and pull this up because I wrote these down Doug I want to say thank you for for coming on this show.

01:25:21

We really appreciate you, man I've benefited a lot from your work. I want to recommend you do have a blog and Where where can people find your your other writings and your blog what what's the name of it?

01:25:38

Okay, yeah, mine is Douglas Dalma dot wordpress so you know if you type in Gordon Clark and Doug or Dalma do you

01:25:49

I'm a you're gonna find it pretty quick. I've I've got of Gordon Clark stuff on there

01:25:54

I just realized I've been mispronouncing your name the whole time. I was

01:26:03

Preferred pronunciation but Yeah, I'm glad if people take a look there

01:26:10

You know I as you guys mentioned us having met in the garden Gordon H. Clark discussion forum that group

01:26:16

I mean we've got a group including you to Luke liner CJ Engel Richard Bacon, I mean we've got a group of guys there that Have a lot of knowledge, and it's been it's been a great sounding board for various ideas

01:26:33

Yeah, I definitely recommend Luke and CJ these guys know their their

01:26:39

Clark stuff and I've personally learned a lot from them, so I'm very grateful to those guys so Let me let me go ahead and announce this we are

01:26:52

Semper Ephraim on the radio is going to give away a signed copy of Doug Doug's book

01:26:59

I Said Doug I Was gonna butcher your name.

01:27:05

I was like. I think I have the first name right, but Doug Dalma Yes, that's right

01:27:10

Dalma. Okay of Doug's book We're gonna give away a signed copy and then

01:27:16

Doug Is also throwing in? Let me let me count one two

01:27:22

Three four five six other books by Gordon Clark He's gonna throw in language and theology

01:27:30

Clark's personal recollections the Commentary the atonement his commentary on Colossians his commentary on Philippians and the incarnation so We really want to promote

01:27:46

Gordon Clark we really want it to promote this book and What we're asking people to do is hey if you enjoyed this podcast if you enjoyed this episode with Doug go ahead and share this on your

01:27:59

Facebook or somebody else's Facebook just share it and Tag me in it Then you'll be entered to win

01:28:05

Entered into a drawing to win the book and win all of these other books. This is excellent excellent stuff

01:28:12

So with that Carlos Doug, is there anything else you guys want to Want to talk about before we go before we sign off tonight

01:28:22

I don't think so, but I just did want to say this was fantastic. Glad to be here so if you guys do have other things you'd like to discuss which

01:28:30

I think there's Plenty more to discuss not only on this book, but various related things

01:28:38

I'd be glad to come back on Sometime in the future so definitely Send another request my way.

01:28:45

Yeah, absolutely. We'll definitely I'll definitely be doing that because I'm always looking to put

01:28:51

Great content out there and and I know that you've got some really solid stuff one of the things that Doug maybe for a future episode that I'd like to talk about is some of the differences between ventillianism and clarkianism and Carlos Informed me that you actually have an article out about that so we could bring you on and talk about that one of the guys that is the president of striving for eternity

01:29:18

It's a ministry that the Bible thumping wingnut is under Andrew Rappaport was asking me about If there's an article out there, and so I'm gonna

01:29:26

I'm gonna probably send them your stuff because I haven't written the article I I don't know You know

01:29:33

I don't know anywhere else to get that so But yeah, we could we could definitely have you on man.

01:29:38

I'd love to do it. We're we're all about this so I'd say it's a decent article.

01:29:45

I'd give myself like a b -plus on that article. It's not the greatest I don't know then till as thoroughly as a number of people do

01:29:54

It would be great to combine Some Well, then Chilean people perhaps yourself you said you were a former of Antillian so if you do know his works more thoroughly you could comment on there about my representation of Ventile on those topics, but I think

01:30:11

I have identified a dozen or more places at which they vary But it's important to note that at the same time

01:30:19

Clark and Ventile had a lot in common They both come from the conservative Presbyterian tradition, so yeah, that's sort of the sort of infighting here.

01:30:27

It's very unfortunate when you see it when you see a set of guys who are Many of the questions right yeah

01:30:36

Yeah, and I'm glad you said that because well that you said about wanting to you know willing to come back on the show

01:30:44

Consider this the consider this our request that we are going to have you again

01:30:49

To talk about all of it I mean we could do an entire series of shows on the

01:30:56

Clark Ventile controversy on Clark's many theological contributions. I mean

01:31:01

I really do look forward to future episodes with you and discussing this stuff in more detail but yeah, and and I also

01:31:09

I want to highlight once again for people to check out Doug's blog because he has a lot of Material good material they're not just stuff that he has authored, but I believe you also have unpublished works from Gordon Clark's of first principles and or first lessons in theology

01:31:28

I think or introduction to Christian theology, and you have a you have some I actually downloaded those already

01:31:35

And look forward to reviewing that to reading those, but so he's got a lot of really good stuff on there

01:31:41

Make sure you you you check out his blog get the book read the book. This is

01:31:46

I mean We we if you want to be relevant you need to read

01:31:52

Doug's book I mean this is the best way to This is the best way this is one of the best ways now to get you know to Get into this whole thing about Gordon Clark and who he was and and the controversies and his contributions and all of that different stuff

01:32:05

So we're very excited to have you on here Doug We thank you for for your work and for you know

01:32:12

And and I hope that you know I don't know how it's interesting I'm really gonna.

01:32:18

I'm looking I'm actually kind of interested to see how the reactions That that the your book is gonna have particularly from like the

01:32:27

Westminster Vantillian side I wonder how that's gonna fair out and fair it out and things like that so We are

01:32:36

Gladly we are more than than willing to To take heat for for for the stuff that we say on here, and you know what you can

01:32:45

You can just tell him to talk to us. You know you can whatever we say in the show Just tell him to talk to us.

01:32:50

No problem. We'll take care of it Just tell him that that was those guys. It was their show.

01:32:56

Yeah, yeah, yeah, what I'm with the views of The views of Doug may or may not represent the views of Yeah, yeah in these theological debates you either have to be

01:33:13

More correct than your opponent or just more willing to spend the time and write voluminous

01:33:19

Lee Material We don't do that but Yeah Yeah, well

01:33:31

Go for it Carlos. No. I so so thank you again Doug. We do look forward to having you back on and yeah, just There's so much more that I want to talk about but we will have to hopefully save that for a near a near future

01:33:47

Episode yeah, definitely. We'll try to put something together so once again Comments complaints suggestions questions, whatever it is email us at semper dot refer manda dot radio at gmail .com

01:34:00

also, check out Doug's website, which we will put a link to and And be sure to share this episode to win six books one of them a signed copy of Doug Dalma's I'm finally saying his name right at the end of the interview man at the end of the interview can tell me at the start

01:34:22

Actually, and and I want to boast about something if it's true I hope this is true, but is

01:34:28

Doug is this your first podcast interview? Um, I've done a couple on the ordinary pastor podcast, which has recently been discontinued with a friend of mine from seminary

01:34:39

Cody almonds are unfortunately our second Podcast which was from a month or so ago

01:34:47

Was somehow deleted on his computer right after So we had a we had an initial interview right when the book came out with all kinds of Gordon Clark stuff that is now lost to history, but I'm willing to Repeat things and in beyond more podcasts, so There's one out there from a couple years ago when

01:35:11

I was working on the project that Cody recorded But this will be the first one since the book came up Awesome awesome.

01:35:18

We are we are very privileged to to have you on man. We really appreciate this and And like Carlos said you've got an open invitation to come back.

01:35:28

I'll try to set some stuff up with you in the future and and folks with that Just want to wish everybody a blessed week.

01:35:37

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