How can I be a biblical wife if I provide more than my husband?

Hello, hello, welcome everybody to Biblically Speaking. My name is Cassian Bellino and I'm your host today. I'm incredibly excited to have my new guest on today, Pastor Douglas Wilson. Welcome. I am so excited to chat with you today.

For those that are not familiar with Pastor Douglas Wilson, first off, how? But second off, here's a little bit of an intro that you are the senior minister of Christ Church in Moscow, Idaho. You're also the founder of Logos School, the founder of St. Andrews College, and a founder of ACC.

You're married to Nancy and you have three kids and 17 grandchildren. Wow. Eighteen now. My gosh, that's amazing. And three great grands. Oh my gosh. Wow. And as far as I'm concerned, you guys have dinner every single.

Week, so this is not a spread out family. No, it's everybody's, everybody's. Wow,.

That is amazing. Congratulations to you. Welcome to the show. Thank you for having me. I'm really excited to chat with you about this topic of modern marriage in the biblical world as far as how do we maintain this biblical image of marriage amidst modern times?

It's not so much a traditional household or we don't have that option, that only option as women, but we do have the option to kind of be equals to men as far as breadwinners and as far as responsibilities go.

So as far as this topic goes, what is your familiarity with it? I mean, I know that you've done marriage counseling. That's kind of why I landed on this topic, but where did you start.

With this? So I've been a pastor for coming up on 50 years, so 45 plus years. And I've been, I've been counseling people for those decades, all those decades. People problems come in clusters. And one of the big clusters is marriage challenges.

There would be other standard things like financial difficulties or a relationship with a boss or something. Marriage problems, marriage challenges, family issues are the lion's share of all pastoral work.

Husbands and wives need to get along and they're completely different people. And then you introduce kids into the mix who are also come in both sexes and you have some very interesting challenges. So I've been counseling people for a very long time.

Also, I grew up in a home where my father was in ministry, an evangelist and a Bible teacher, not a pastor. He became a pastor later, but when I was growing up, he wasn't a pastor, but he was in Christian work.

And I learned an awful lot about marriage and family from him. And so that was, then over the years, because I'm working in a college town, I'm ministering in a college town, there are an awful lot of college kids pairing off, courting, getting together.

And I wanted to teach and equip them prior to marriage. And so I began writing, began writing books, both for married couples and for courting couples and people headed that direction. So I've written a number of marriage and family books and where I try to put on paper the things that I've learned and have seen road tested in counseling sessions.

That's basically where it all comes from. Interesting. And I know that we're probably.

Going to get into this at a deeper level, but what are some of the key things that you think young couples getting together, like right out of college need to know if they want to center Christ at the center of their marriage or relationship before marriage?

So the three.

Big ones, basically. For, if a man and a woman want to live together for life in a sinful world, the three, the three big issues would be sex, money, and kids, right? If you put, if you put those three things in a pot, you're dealing with 80 to 90 of all the challenges.

So your conversations with them are just preparing them for those issues that come up, or is it more sort of like, you know, how to approach those types of things? What's your style? Yeah, you can't,.

Let's say some of these challenges, you can't explain the challenge itself beforehand because it's like, that'd be like explaining calculus to a third grader. Right. You could, you could tell them there's going to be this thing called calculus, but you don't have the, you just don't have the experience to know what I'm even talking about.

Right. So the way I approach couples to meet those challenges is by going over, this is, I do this in one of my books and I go over this in all my pre-marriage counseling. And I, I tell them that if, look, if you were, if you guys were eloping right now and you had a plane to catch and you were going to New Zealand and you weren't going to talk to any of us for 15 years, but you thought you'd pop in and get 10 minutes worth of marriage advice, how would I use my 10 minutes?

And I tell them, I would use my 10 minutes on this one thing. And that is keeping short accounts, confessing your sins. Basically the illustration I used is imagine two families, side by side, five kids in each household.

Parents are Christians. They go to the same church. Moms are good friends. The fathers work the same company. They drive the same kind of minivan. Everything's the same, except one of the homes is blitzed, knee deep in debris.

And the other home is picked up and immaculate and clean. Okay. I say the difference between the two homes is not how many t-shirts get put on in the morning because that's the same amount. It's not how many breakfast bowls get used because that's the same amount.

The thing that distinguishes the two homes is that in one of the homes, when a mess is made, it's picked up right away. You use the breakfast bowl, you rinse it out, you put it in the dishwasher. In the other home, you use it, push it to the center of the table.

Then two days later, someone moves it to the counter. Three days later, someone puts it in the sink. And so that's the blitzed house. And then the other house is tidy, clean. And the difference between them is keeping short accounts.

If there's a mess, address it now. That's the bottom line. If husband and wife have had a bump, they're out of fellowship, something's wrong, pick it up now. Don't wait till the weekend. Don't wait until church when you can confess your sins.

Don't, don't, don't. Pick it up now. And I tell couples that five years from now, your marriage is going to be one of those two houses. And you're either going to be, it's going to be cluttered and you're not going to know where to start or you're going to be on top of it.

And so what happens is if you have a couple that are keeping short accounts and then five years in, they start to have some real financial stressors. They're in fellowship. They can talk about it. They can work through it.

They're on the same team. But 10 years into it, they're starting to have challenges with some of the kids. Well, they're in fellowship. They can work together. They can, they can navigate the calculus class because they're in fellowship.

So I can't, can't explain calculus to the third grader, but I can impart certain things about do your homework now. Yeah. Keep things current. Don't let it pile up on you. That sort of thing. So that's the, that's the emphasis I have.

And then when problems about sex or problems about money or problems about kids arise, you're in a.

Good place to address it. Yeah. That's a really, really well put. Thank you for, for saying that. I think that makes the most sense. And it, I mean, it paints such a clear picture as far as, you know, the communication aspect and kind of cleaning up after things both, you know, relationally and physically with the dishes and that.

I want to take a bit of a history lesson and kind of go back in time and understand like, what did they do back in like ancient Near East culture for early marriage? Like what was the expectation there?

Cause we can maybe kind of draw some of the conclusions as far as what the Bible says of like, as far as the roles between a wife and a husband, what was the guidance there? Was it just simply because of like lack of access to rights for women that they were like expected to stay in the house?

But like,.

How was this biblical household set up and do you know why? Yeah. So I will answer your question, but I want to point out that our situation now is kind of historically speaking, really an artificial set of artificial is not right because it's actually happening, but it's a very different arrangement than historically has been the case.

So a lot of the roles, traditional roles between men and women in the household have historically been simply a function of everybody wanting to survive the winter. Okay. So there is a reason why men were the hunter gatherers.

There's a reason why they were the ones plowing the field. And there's a reason why the women were weaving and cleaning and cooking and so forth. And that reason was biological, right? It had to do with upper body strength.

It had to do with what you needed to do in order to get enough wood to burn through the winter, what you needed to do in order to get enough meat. So you couldn't afford for ideological reasons to split up the workload in an even-steven way.

And your grand experiment out in the woods, nobody would ever find out about because none of you lived. Yeah. Good point. Now, so some of the traditions have carried over. So, for example, in most conservative Christian marriages, households, dad drives, mom rides in the passenger side, and dad drives.

Now, that's the way it usually is. And we're just on autopilot. That's what we do. And there was a reason for that centuries ago. And the reason had to do with driving a team of horses. Who's going to drive the horses and who's going to be able to handle the horses if they get spooked or something like that?

And now, with the technology of the automobile, it makes no difference to the car whether a man or a woman is driving. It just makes no difference. But we still follow the traditional way. So now, for us, it's more of a signal than it is a necessity.

Does that make sense? So, there's certain things that we do or don't do that are telegraphing our commitments to certain things that we think are continuing. So, certain... And this has to do with... Well, hit the pause button for a minute.

I have to explain the difference between principles and methods. Okay? So, despite modern technology, despite the fact that we now live in an economy where a woman can draw down a paycheck that's as big as a man's paycheck, despite all those differences in method, we still have principal differences between men and women.

So, a man and a woman drawing the same amount of money in their paycheck does not alter the fact that men think about their paycheck very differently than women think about their paycheck. So, for men, basically, the paycheck is like a scoreboard.

It is... Men are competitive. Men are interested in status. They're interested in achievement. And it's far more important to them to put points on the scoreboard, right? And so, one of the reasons that women love flex hours, for example, is they have different priorities than the men do.

The men want to stay in the game all four quarters because they want to run up the stats. Women want the flexibility to go on the field and off the field because they've got a kid to watch. They've got things they want to get done at home.

They think about the whole thing differently. So, you can't just assume that men and women are physiologically different, but their brains are the same. That's not true.

Dr. Kuruvilla Yeah, I would agree with that.

Okay. Their brains are very different. And so, consequently, men prioritize work differently than women prioritize work. And so, that's a... I would argue that that's a creational given. That's how men and women are.

And all the technology in the world is not going to change that. Okay? All right? Dr. Kuruvilla.

So, you would say that, if I'm hearing you correctly, that it's more so of a nature than it is a nurture. It just didn't end up that way. You think that women, at the end of the day, if we were given the choice, we'd still act in a way more nurturing way?

Dr. David That is correct. Now, there are certain writers and sociologists and stuff that I've read on this that they want to understand these things that I'm pointing out. They would agree with them, but they would want to say, this all goes back to our evolutionary past, which I reject.

But I do think it's a creational design. So, God put Adam in the garden to tend and keep it. So, the two basic tasks of a man are to provide and protect. So, one of the things that men do all the time is they establish perimeters and then guard them.

It's just what they do. And women like it when they do that. All right? They establish perimeters and then they guard them. And I think that this is a biblical thing that is principal. That means that a thousand years from now, when technology is far advanced from where it is now, Christian men should still be doing that basic thing, remembering the principle.

But so, here's another example, the difference between principles and methods. In warfare, principles would be things that translate everywhere. A principle would be mobility, or a principle would be surprise.

A principle would be concentration. In a battle 1000 BC and a battle 1000 AD, those principles are constant. They will always be true. But in one battle, it was bows and arrows, spears, catapults. In a modern battle, it's surface-to-air missiles, fighter jets, aircraft carriers.

The technology or the methods are very different, but the principles are always the same. So, the challenge that we have is, what is the principle that is to remain constant? And what is the method? Okay?

What is the principle and what is the method? So, the principle would be the headship of the man and the responsiveness and submissiveness of the woman. If someone would argue, no, no, no, the principle is the man always has to drive, right?

And the man must not sit in the passenger seat. That's not a principle.

I see.

Okay, that's not a principle. That's simply a method.

Okay.

And the method could... And I usually drive in our family, but when I do that, it's not because it's needed, it's because I want to signal our attachment to things that really are principles, and that's not one of them.

I see that. I genuinely wanted to talk about this topic with you because I think it's personal for me, is I am married to the... Everything that you've said makes sense. I mean, I'm Christian. I've bought into the idea I'm sold, but I'm not married.

And I do have my own job and I do provide for all of my own needs. And I do have this aspect of self-respect when it comes to... I'm proud of the work that I do. I don't intend on quitting my job when I do get married because I love what I do.

I work in tech, but then I also have this podcast. There is a part of me that looks forward to being a mother one day and running a household because I loved watching my mother do that. But I also appreciate all of the knowledge and the skills that I have.

So I think having this conversation is, well, when I get married, am I supposed to quit my job? Because I don't want to, but I also honor these principles that you have laid out. So just looking at a bit of scripture, I want to jump into...

So let's jump into Ephesians 5 .22. Let's see where it is. Wives, submit yourselves to your husbands as you do the Lord. And the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, which he's the savior.

Now the church submits to Christ, so wives should also submit to their husbands. This isn't the submit to your wives and love your husband's verse, which I think is something that you've spoken on where those are complimentary.

Women, they want to be loved. Men, they want to be respected. I think that totally checks out. I don't think there's any poor domination or domineering when it comes to submitting to a husband. I think that's an element of respect.

But in light of this verse, is there a 2024 version of this that you are counseling kids on and how that should look in.

Light of maybe a dual income household? So what we did in our household... So basically you're talking to a troglodyte. I'm a patriarchal... A what? A troglodyte? What is that? That's a cave dweller. That's a cave dweller.

That's hilarious. So I'm unabashedly... Everything Paul said about headship and submission in marriage, I'm all about. So I'm a conservative, old guard Christian. Now that said, my wife has worked as an English teacher at Logos School for a number of years.

We started having our kids, and she was a stay-at-home mom when the kids were little. Then I was teaching at Logos various classes. Then all our kids were enrolled in the school. And then Nancy came up and began teaching part-time and for a few years taught full-time back and forth and did that.

And then she's sold fabric out of her home. She's a writer. She's done all kinds of things that went beyond cooking dinner. And it was more of a Proverbs 31 thing where the woman there considers a vineyard and she buys it.

She's like a merchant ship that brings... She's all over the place. Our teaching, I think straight out of scripture, is not that the woman's place is in the home, but the woman's priority is the home in a different way than the man's is.

The man prioritizes the home in one way, and the woman prioritizes the home in another way. That home that she prioritizes is not a ball and chain for her.

That's well said. I agree with that.

What a focus of her attention, such that when a woman has choices, which our modern economy has provided us with, enabling you to run a podcast from your home, that creates options where my daughters, daughter-in-law, my granddaughters are all very industrious, but they think about the things that they do, they think about their work very differently than a man does.

And I think that that is right and proper and honors the principle. For example, when a woman with... The thing I object to is a woman being thrown into the corporate world, and where she's expected to sacrifice everything, the way, hours, home, all of that stuff.

There are certain things that the modern corporate world demands that a woman sacrifice that I don't think she should. And I think the technological developments of our culture enable a woman to be industrious from the home in a way that doesn't sacrifice those things.

Okay. I mean, that kind of leads into the natural next step of this conversation is, let's say... Because I think what your wife does is it's understandable. It typically is the case, I would say, that she is not the breadwinner of the home.

She has the ability to make money, but not in a way that it takes her completely away from the home. So in those cases where maybe the woman, the wife is the breadwinner, that she is making more money than the husband, you've got that stay-at-home dad.

Is it fair to say you would say that's wrong or unbiblical? Or is there also leniency here because we have accessibility to resources? I mean, I'm not here at all saying anybody's living life wrong, but I'm saying there are instances that don't check out to the same way you and your wife lived.

So what do they do in a way to stay biblical?

So let me put it this way. It's not that I think that that situation described is a sin, like theft or adultery, or... It's not a sin like that. But I will tell you as a pastor, I would have blinking yellow lights all over my dashboard looking at that thing.

Hey, just because it would dishonor and disrespect the husband eventually?

Yeah, because whether or not she intends that, he's going to feel that. And whether or not she intends it, she is going to feel that, right? Do you think just psychologically it's bound to happen? That is correct.

It's going to be a challenge that they both will have to face. And even if managed successfully, the two of them to face it, they're dealing with other people looking at their arrangement. He's going to have to deal with all of his friends who think that he's a wuss, right?

And people talking to them and praying for them and that sort of thing. Basically, it is a situation that I would describe as fraught with peril, right? Because she can say, well, it'd be a lunatic move to give up this high-paying job and all the benefits.

We got married when I was 38, and I already have seniority at the firm. There'll be all kinds of arguments that you could bring forward to say, this makes economic sense for us to do it this way. I still think that that's an arrangement that's headed for trouble.

So when Nancy got paid for the various jobs that she's undertaken, one of the things that I wanted to do is I said, okay, I want to work where I pay the bills. What I make is what we live on. And what you make, honey, is fun money.

You can buy the.

Furniture you want. God bless Nancy. What a beautiful life.

So basically, there have been some times where the ox was in the ditch and we had to do something with money that Nancy had brought in. But as a general pattern and a rule, that's what we've done. And now that she's an author getting royalty payments, when the royalties come in, I don't want to use her money to pay our taxes or her money to pay.

I want her money to go to things that she wants to use to glorify the home, to do her job. Basically, the money she brings in from her jobs, I want her to turn it around and plow it back into her central job, which is the prioritization of the home.

Okay. So one of the things that you're going to, I believe that here's a phrase, hypergamy, which is women prefer men who have demonstrated some kind of competence or superiority in status contests with other men.

And there have been many complaints registered about this, but none of the complaints seem to change anything.

What are some of the complaints with that? Just that they don't agree with it?

Yeah. This is not fair. The high school quarterback who has all the girls following him all around is a jerk. And the schlub guys in the class who are muttering about this guy, being a jerk, they are not jerks.

And they have no comprehension why the girls are paying attention to that guy when he's a jerk and they are nice. All right. I'm a nice guy. Well, women appreciate nice guys. Women appreciate nice guys.

They do recognize that they're nice guys. They like the nice guys. They're not attracted to the nice guys. Okay.

Maybe not when we're kids, but I think everybody grows up at some point. No. No? You think, wait, whoa, whoa, whoa. You think women just want the jocks all the time?

No, no, no. So obviously, I would say obviously women would prefer someone who is the jock, the quarterback is simply the illustration. The status competition could be military, could be business. It could be academic.

It could be any number of realms. It doesn't.

Have to involve a ball. Right. You're saying it's about the status. It's not about the niceness.

Correct. Right. Well, it's about the status. Now, if a woman found a man who was a high achiever and he was nice, right, man, that's the jackpot. That's interesting. I feel like, I mean,.

I understand your logic, but it is hard for me to understand why a woman would go after somebody who.

Isn't as nice just because they have status. It leaves all kinds of people baffled. Why do women continue to put up with so many jerks? I don't think that's simply because of status. I think.

There are other elements that factor, maybe like insecurities or trauma, or sometimes they're just stuck in a situation, so they don't have as many options. Like if I didn't have a job and I was living with a guy, I would be more keen to stay with him for the provisions that he provided.

Correct. I'm not disputing any of those other factors. It's not a simplistic, put the eight ball in the corner pocket. But I do believe that going back to your initial question here is that a man and a woman could sit down and agree that for me to stay home with the kids and for you to continue with your high status, high paying job, this makes the best economic sense.

You can map it all on paper and both of them agree and both of them sign off on it. But I think there is going to be an element of discontent in both of them. And they made an economic decision that seemed wise and shrewd at the time, but he is going to feel it and she is going to feel it.

I think that In the circumstance that the woman is the breadwinner.

Correct. Yeah. What if, I mean, I honor your beliefs. I respect what you believe. I understand that it's a very traditional belief system. I think it's more so in a biblical sense, that's not always the case.

So for a couple where maybe both are hybrid winners, there's a couple online that I look at, they're both clearly making a lot of money and they both prioritize that. And it doesn't appear online that the female cares so much about the house.

It just seems like she's very much so in a money-making mentality. It's the hormoses, if you're familiar with that. But it just seems like that's one of those power couples, quote unquote, that just really cares about building a business.

Let's say that they wanted to center Christ in their marriage. I don't know if they are. It's just a hypothetical. But as far as those circumstances where the wife is hungry, she has that ability. Is there any advice that you would give them in the sense that they are, if not equal, as far as money-making, it's not that she's higher than the man.

Does that create an alternative element here? Because I'm just trying to shine as much light.

Sure. So let me expand the hypothetical. If you have a situation where both the husband and the wife have good jobs, high-paying jobs, and they're in a position to make money, and let's say for whatever reason, she has had a hysterectomy or whatever, cannot have children.

So children are just off the table. It's not going to happen. I would say to a couple like that, knock yourselves.

Out. Oh, you think it's like the children element that kind of changes things. I see.

So absolutely. Because if you take a couple like that who are a high-powered money-making couple, I predict 25 years from now, a bad case of the lonesomes. So returning to something you asked me earlier, we have three kids and 18 grandkids and three great-grands, and we have a Sabbath dinner every Saturday night.

And there are few things in the world better than having all your people around the table, telling jokes, laughing, offering toasts. These are your people. And there are short-term advantages like that a power couple could, you could haul down a lot of money and you could have a real nice house and lots of good.

But then down the road, it's going to be a real nice empty house. And we were built for people. We were built for one another. And one of the great glories of a woman is her fruitfulness, right? And when in the providence of God that is removed, that's not a factor, then she and he together should deploy their gifts as best they can and glorify God together and not get competitive or what, you know, they should avoid all those things and both of them should be involved in it.

There...

And what would glorifying God look like for that type of couple?

Well, let's say even, and I'm just, again, take the children factor out. If a woman had a high-paying job and the man had a job sweeping out a warehouse and, you know, sort of that was his, he found his level, right?

Or it wasn't his level, but it was just a string of bad luck. They are going to have temptations. He is going to have temptations with regard to her status over him. She is going to have temptations because she's not going to be able to respect as thoroughly as she would like to.

She would prefer to be earning high status and she would prefer to have a husband who was just a little bit higher than that. I can understand the element of temptation.

In that. I think the...

So I'm just telling you as a pastor, that's where the temptations will come.

And this is what you've seen just firsthand.

Yes, I have. And one of my operating principles as a counselor, as a pastoral counselor, is I ask myself, what would I do if I were the devil here?

Let's go there.

So if this couple comes in to see me and I ask myself, how would I tempt these people if I were the devil? And then of course I want to push against that, go the way from that. But I want to anticipate what the natural temptations in this situation are going to be.

And those natural temptations will be sort of a deep-seated disrespect on her part, deep-seated insecurity on his part. And of course, when he gets that insecurity bug, he starts overthinking everything, apologizing for breathing.

He tries to make a decision about, we're going to remodel the back room. And she's saying, what are you talking about? You didn't earn that money. Why are you trying to make...

Where do you even go from there. As far as that's the positioning in your marriage, you're being tempted by the devil. How do you re-center and move forward? And kind of like you said at the beginning, clean up that mess right away.

Yeah. I have seen couples together make... I've seen and read about couples that make a decision to have mom come home, for example. She comes home, take care of the kids. And if she's high energy, high...

I'm related to some... How should I put this? I'm related to some women who are tornadoes in heels. Yes and amen. Love those women. They work hard. They're really fruitful. I can't believe the things that they get done, but they get done from a different place.

They operate out of home. They operate out of their home. And if you have who has got high abilities, high energy, committed to a biblical worldview, and she comes home to take care of the kids. At some point, the kids are in school, and she's got all the housework done by 930 in the morning.

Now, what do you do? Well, this is where the feminism of the 1960s arose, actually. Yeah. Well, actually, first wave feminism also, and then second wave feminism the same. It was a technological problem,.

Right? You got to slow down. You're kind of going too fast for me. You're saying high efficiency. Women in the home built the.

Feminist movement? No. What happened was, in the post-World War II era, when the economy exploded and everybody's kitchens filled up with labor-saving devices, all of a sudden, there were washing machines and dishwashers and refrigerators and food mixers and all of these things.

It used to be, going back to what I said earlier, it used to be that if a woman wanted her family to be clothed through the winter, she had to weave all summer. Okay. You don't think about that. Right.

Everybody had to pitch in, and a man wanted to marry a two-bucket woman who could go down to the well and bring two buckets back instead of one bucket back. Oh, that's a funny phrase. Well, yeah. Men should always prefer a two-bucket woman.

That's hilarious. So what happened in post-World War II era is that a bunch of educated women who had great abilities and strengths and stuff, so you had these women of high ability who, by 10 a .m., were reduced to staring at the wallpaper.

What am I going to do with my gifts and abilities? What am I supposed to do? What am I for? And so consequently, that is what set the stage for second-wave feminism. Something very similar had happened with first-wave feminism with the Industrial Revolution.

So a lot of this is driven by technological considerations. And what I've seen firsthand is that there are many uses that this technology can be used for that help reinforce the principles of a woman's home-centeredness and the principle of a man being the head and provider and protector.

But it doesn't look traditional to someone 300 years ago. Let's say a patriarchal Christian Bible teacher 300 years ago saw a modern Christian woman driving an SUV, and he's thinking, what on earth is this monstrosity?

And she's saying, I'm just going to pick up the kids from school. She is as domestic as that 300-year-old guy's wife was. She's being domestic. But to him, it doesn't look domestic at all. To him, it looks like she's flying a jet fighter down the freeway.

I saw a great sweatshirt one time said, if a woman's place is in the home, why am I always in the car?

That's hilarious. I'm going to lean into the other side of this just to play. Devil's advocate here is how do we protect the modern couple from the woman being a victim of control? And how do we advise the husband not to take advantage of the situation where he's in control of the money?

He's in control of providing these boundaries that may or may not honor the wife. How do we ensure it honors the wife? How do we ensure that he is loving his wife as the scriptures call him.

To do? I would say control. How do we protect her from that? The central protection, I think, is to cultivate a Christian community that surrounds a church where the Bible is taught, and the Bible is taught in an even-handed way.

In every marriage, you have three parties involved, not two. It's not the man and the woman. It's the man and the woman and Christ. The Bible tells men what to do, and the Bible tells women what to do.

Now, this is the perennial challenge. When they are united, they're one flesh, they're brought together for life, what's to keep a man from abusing his position? The answer is the fear of God. What is to keep a wife from abusing her position?