Pets: Is It a Sin to Have Fur Babies?

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Warning, the following message may be offensive to some audiences. These audiences may include but are not limited to professing Christians who never read their

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Bible, sissies, sodomites, men with man buns, those who approve of men with man buns, man bun enablers, white knights for men with man buns, homemakers who have finished

00:10

Netflix but don't know how to meal plan, and people who refer to their pets as fur babies. Viewer discretion is advised. People are tired of hearing nothing but doom and despair on the radio.

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01:27

Welcome to Bible Bast, where we aim to equip the saints for the works of ministry. We're your host, Harrison Kerrig, and pastor

01:33

Tim Mullett, and today we seek to answer the age -old question, is it a sin to have fur babies?

01:39

Now, the reason that we're doing this episode is because over the weekend, I was scrolling through Twitter, and I came across a post that disturbed me to my very core, and it read the following, pizza slice for my wife.

01:55

Thank you God for putting her in my life and allowing her to love me as her husband.

02:02

Now, that sounds nice and loving and very heartwarming, especially in this holiday season, until you see the picture that is posted with it, and it is a picture of this man feeding a slice of pizza to his dog with his hands, and I was looking at that, and that was essentially the straw that broke the camel's back, where Tim and I, we were both like, all right, we've gotta do an episode talking about pets in our society.

02:34

It's time to have this conversation. So Tim, I guess we'll just start off by asking, okay, so is it a sin to have fur babies, to refer to animals as fur babies or children, essentially?

02:52

Yeah, well, it seems like it's been a conversation that's been building for some time, and so let's go there, but yeah, with the question, is it okay to have fur babies?

03:04

I guess it's one of those questions that could be taken in several different ways, as far as I can tell.

03:12

So the first way to take that seems to be the most straightforward way to take it, which is probably not what you're intended by the question, but that is the question, is it wrong to attempt through science to create an animal -human hybrid, right?

03:28

How did you know that that's exactly what I was trying to ask with that question? I didn't think it was, but I didn't wanna delimit that as a possibility.

03:39

The second one maybe, which I don't think you're intending either, but is the more general question, is it okay to have pets, right?

03:49

So is it okay to have fur babies? Is it okay to have pets? Then a third way to take it would be to take it in a way to say, is it okay to call pets fur babies?

04:02

Is that maybe getting close to where you're going with it? Yeah, yeah, that's probably the closest to what

04:07

I'm getting at with that kind of question. Well, then four though would be though, is it okay to treat pets like family members?

04:16

So what do you think? What do you wanna start? I guess let's start with, well, the post.

04:23

So the post is about this man treating his dog as his wife. So why don't we start with the family members and work our way down to animal -human hybrid?

04:36

Okay, right, yeah. We'll work across the spectrum. Oh man, well, yeah, so I don't even know where to start with is it okay to treat pets as family members, but I think

04:48

I can, I guess this is the kind of phenomenon, maybe we could just step back a bit and then talk about why this is even a question, right?

05:00

So obviously we'll start out that way, just why is this even a question we're talking about?

05:06

So you saw a post of a man referring to his pet as his wife and in a lot of ways, it's the kind of thing that I don't know what to make of that, right?

05:21

So I don't know if that's like a tongue -in -cheek kind of thing where it's just reflective of some animal lover who is pretty uncautious with his words or something like that, right?

05:39

And just as reflecting some kind of sentiment like dogs are man's best friend or something along those lines or maybe he has a troubled marriage or something like that.

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It's like old Bessie over here treated me better than my wife ever did.

05:59

But the thing is, it's the kind of question that really in some sense is the kind of question

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I've been expecting for a while now. And it's the kind of thing that you've seen building for years and years and years to where we live in a world that really does not understand what the purpose of animals are, right?

06:26

We don't understand how we're supposed to relate to them, I would say. But then not only like society in general, the more that we chuck a

06:36

Christian worldview and throw it down the drain, essentially I think the more confused we are at this very point. But in the churches, it seems to be just as bad, right?

06:43

So like that example you gave, I mean, I could multiply examples just like that. So for example, there was a couple at the church

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I went to last and I won't tell you their name to protect the guilty, but they posted a picture on Facebook that was essentially a picture of them, the couple and their dog.

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And then the dog had a shirt on it that said, big sis, right?

07:12

And that was - How did we get here, Tim? How did we get here? No, all right.

07:19

So, but that's not uncommon at all. Like that kind of thing is not uncommon.

07:28

Just things like that. Now, me and you, we won't say her name, but we counseled a girl who was essentially, you know, a high school girl whose parents, or basically, you know, her dad was long picture and her mom abandoned her and her brother for long periods of time.

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And she was essentially starving to death because she spent all of, you know, what little money she made from a part -time job trying to feed her brother and her cat, you know?

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And so, I mean, that's a sad example. But I mean, I think this was, this kind of issue was really brought home to me probably, you know, about six years ago when

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I was at a funeral of a church member whose husband had died.

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And her kids, you know, they were coming and they were in the midst of grieving and everything else.

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But the kids were two single people, both of whom, you know, were career people.

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So there was a guy who was single and the girl who was single. And then, you know, they're in the midst of this funeral and their dad just died.

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And so they're coming to the house, you know, to figure out what to do with their mom and everything else.

08:47

And both of them come with, you know, they're both single career people and they both come with their pets, right? So they each have their own pet.

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And so instead of getting married, you know, they're off getting a job. And, you know, first thing they do is get a pet. And I mean, I've looked at, you know, every church

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I've been at, it seems like young people, the first thing they seem to do is, it's like right when they, you know, want to start off life, it's first impulse seems to be to get a pet before they even get married, right?

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So get a pet. And then couples, you know, instead of, you know, just getting married and having some sort of expectation, you're going to have kids.

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First thing they do is go out and buy a pet, right? And so it seems like examples like that could be multiplied.

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I mean, you know, you call Regions Bank, for example, and they have some absurd and obscene kind of whatever that is, call waiting music that's going on.

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That basically is trying to persuade you to get a second mortgage on your home. So you can give your furry friend the backyard he deserves, you know?

09:49

And I mean, it's like we're living in a society right now where we don't, we really don't understand what pets are for at all, right?

09:57

I mean, it's just, it's overwhelming. It's obvious. It's like we're in some sense trying to do something with pets that you're supposed to be doing with people, right?

10:10

So I mean, whether it's just like you have this deep desire for companionship and so you want to get married when instead of, you know, you're having a hard time doing that.

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So you go buy a pet or you have a desire to have a child. And so you, you know, instead of doing that, you get a pet, right?

10:29

As a parent or, and so, I mean, I think the natural result of all that is obviously going to be at some point to where, you know, you're living in a society which blurred those lines to such a degree that now we're, you know, asking a question, is it okay to marry your pet, right?

10:46

But then the question, you know, you're asking is the question, is it okay to treat pets like family members essentially, right?

10:53

All right, so that's where we'll start. So is it okay to treat pets as pets like family members?

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And I think this gets at something about the idea of pet in general that seems to me to be inherently problematic, okay?

11:14

So it seems like there's a passage in the Bible that seems to be relevant to this as far as I'm concerned.

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And so, you know, if you're listening, you want to open your Bible, open it to Genesis 2 .18.

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And Genesis 2 .18, it seems like, you know, if you want to understand why we're here, why

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God made us, then there's no easier place to go than Genesis.

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And that's a book of origins essentially. But then one of the things that's kind of amazing about this passage is that,

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I mean, Genesis tells you, in the beginning, God made man. He made man in his own image, right?

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In the beginning, he made him male and female. If you want to look at our society and see all the things that are wrong with our society, almost at every single point, there's almost like a step -by -step reversal about what's happening in Genesis.

12:03

And one of the more interesting things that is happening in Genesis, and this is something that people don't often notice, is that in Genesis 2 .18,

12:13

the Bible says that the Lord God said, it's not good that man should be alone, okay?

12:20

So it's not good that man should be alone. I will make a helper fit for him, right?

12:27

So God didn't design man to be fundamentally alone. So God creates Adam first.

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And then God is looking at Adam and he's, you know, the interpretation there is it's not good for man to be alone.

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So I'm going to make a helper fit for him. And what immediately happens in the passage that God brings, you know, now out of the ground, it says, now out of the ground, the

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Lord God had formed every beast of the field, every bird of the heavens, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them. And whatever the man called every living creature, that was his name.

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So the man gave names to all the livestock. So at this point in history, right, you have man as a singular entity, surrounded by animals, and yet God describes him as being alone, right?

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Think about like the theological implications of that. So man is surrounded by animals, and yet he's saying God's describing as being alone, and that's not a good state.

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So what does God do? He brings all the animals around man to see what he would name him, right? And it says, whatever the man called every living creature, that was his name.

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The man gave names to all the livestock, to all the birds of the heaven, and to every beast of the field. But for Adam, there was not found a helper fit for him, right?

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No helper fit for man or the animal. So what did God do? Then God makes a woman for the man, so that he will not be alone, and that he'll have a helper fit for him.

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And that tells you something about like, none of these animals were meant to be his companion, right?

13:55

Wait, so he didn't give him the golden retriever and the slice of pizza? It seems to be the case, that if that was what

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God intended, there was no need for a woman, right? Right. But then, you know, this creation account, it says it's not good for man to be alone.

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This is, I mean, it basically gives us a biblical view of what marriage is in general. I mean, marriage is one man plus one woman in a covenant forever.

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And that's, I mean, this is how you argue against, you know, polygamous marriage. You think about the formula, one plus one equals, you know, one flesh, right?

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One man plus one woman equals one flesh. That's where you argue from polygamy. That's how you argue pedophilia.

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You know, it's one man, one woman. It's not one man, one child. I mean, that's how you argue against homosexuality, right?

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It's not one man plus one man equals one flesh. It's one man plus one woman. So it's not good to man to be alone.

14:50

Man's supposed to look to a woman to be his corresponding helper, to be his companion, right? But then apart from that, even having all the animals there related to this topic, he's alone, right?

15:01

So it seems to me that if you're going to say, hey, is it okay to treat pets like family members?

15:07

Well, like the problem there is just to say that from a biblical perspective, like a pet is wholly unsuited to that role, right?

15:19

Does that make sense? Right. Because the pet is not a human and there's a fundamental difference between man and animal.

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Man is given dominion over the animal. And I mean, it just is a simple passage.

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When I think it was a Samaritan woman was asking Jesus for healing and he looks at her and he says, it's not good to give the children's bread to the dogs, right?

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And her response is to say, hey, but even the dogs eat the bread from the master's table.

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She didn't seem to be offended by that, like a good feminist should have been. But the problem though is to say that his principle is right.

15:57

Like there is a fundamental difference. Like it's immoral to mix categories in that kind of way to treat.

16:04

Like there is a care that a person has that he ought to be given to his children that does not belong to animals, right?

16:13

Okay. Now, I mean, just to give you a funny story along those lines, I mean, I'm constantly trying to warn my children that pets are not people, right?

16:24

Right. And so I'm trying to tell them this all the time. And so they probably roll their eyes at me because I say it so much, but I mean,

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I am constantly saying pets are not people, they're food, right? And so... Now, I've told them this over and over and over.

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Pets are not people, they're food. Because I don't want them to fall into this lie that I see that's giving birth to the pizza man, right?

16:47

Right. Okay. I put him in one of my kids and I won't tell you who it was, but he found a lizard and wanted to bring him home and put him in some sort of enclosure.

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And he looked at all of us and he said, hey, we have a new member of the family today, right? And I said, hey, wait a minute, wait a minute.

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That animal is not a member of our family. Like, I do not love that animal the way that I love you.

17:17

I'm not making any commitment to care for that animal. That animal can go at the moment it starts to bother me, right?

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It can be disposed of. This is an animal, like this is not a creature that's made in the image of God.

17:32

Like we might think that he's fun or neat to look at and see how he camouflages himself with rocks.

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But we should not love him or treat him as a human or act like he's a human or attribute to him human names as far as that goes.

17:50

Well, it may be ironic to attribute him human names. I meant human emotions and affections and treat him as if he's a human being.

18:00

So yeah, no, I think it's fundamentally immoral and a biblical to treat pets as family members.

18:10

So, you know, like we said at the beginning, this is obviously a problem that is pervasive in our society right now.

18:20

Even in the Christian community, I think, I mean, honestly,

18:27

I don't even really see a difference. Personally, just anecdotally, I don't really see a difference between unbelievers and believers in terms of, you know, the way they treat their animals.

18:40

Do you agree with that? Oh, I mean, absolutely not. I mean, like I, you know, just looking at couples in the church world, we're doing the same thing.

18:48

I mean, the first thing that any couple does is they go out and they get it. If they haven't already acquired an animal for themselves, it seems like the first thing that they do is acquire an animal.

18:58

Right. And then they, you know, they obviously treat them as if they're family members, despite whatever they claim to be doing.

19:08

And I mean, you know that they do because I test this all the time, just because, you know, I like to, you know, put people in situations where I'm going to get more information out of them than they think

19:19

I am, you know? And so, but I mean, I'm constantly testing this very thing because,

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I mean, I, you know, I can't, you know, people will probably just roll their eyes at me and think I'm crazy, but I'm doing it for a reason.

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But, you know, I'm constantly making jokes about like, hey, you know, isn't it nice to have an additional food supply in case the zombie apocalypse comes, right?

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But no one thinks that's funny but me, you know? In fact, I mean,

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I think it's hilarious, but then no one thinks it's, I mean, no one thinks it's funny. In fact, they think, they look at me as if I've said something fundamentally immoral, almost every time.

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Like I, without exception, like they look at me as if I've said something fundamentally immoral. And that tells you though, that like there isn't, like they are treating them like a family member, right?

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Like, you know, why wouldn't you, if things got rough and tough, kill that thing in order to feed yourself or your family if you're starving to death.

20:28

But then, I mean, you know, we live in a society right now where, I mean, the major plot of like TV shows and movies is that very point, right?

20:36

So like Superman, which one was it with the, where the dad walks into the hurricane?

20:41

I forgot all about that. Oh, Man of Steel. Yeah, where he - Man of Steel. I mean, yeah.

20:48

The whole plot, you go ahead. Where he, yeah, the tornado is coming and the dog is, is the dog trapped in the car?

20:55

Is that what happens? And then he like, doesn't let Superman save him. He goes in the car and all that.

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You know, it's like, let me go save the dog. You know, it's like, that's not heroism, right? That's, that's insanity.

21:08

Like that's like, you know, but that's the major plot of a TV show. This is us or whatever, where the house is burning down and the dad goes in there to save the dog and ends up dying and then they have to deal with it.

21:19

You know, it's like, this is immoral. This is not, like greater love has no man to lay down his life for his pet.

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You know, it's like, come on, you know, like this is, this is sub biblical. This is sub

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Christian. You know, this is, this is, this is not even remotely helpful in any way, you know, but anyways, no,

21:42

I don't see, I don't see the difference. Okay. Right. I don't see the difference in the

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Christian world. Right. We, we, um, we, we may not be yet at the point where we're gonna, you know, hold out a slice of pizza and, you know, call the dog or wife, but we've done everything else.

22:04

Right. So, but go ahead. So, um, you know, like, like we said, there's not really a difference between unbelievers and believers in terms of how they treat their animals.

22:14

So, um, I guess first, yeah, I mean, example of that is prior, um, uh, former professor at Liberty basically says that she has a more visceral reaction to like an animal being abused than the thought of abortion.

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So this is, this is a problem. Okay. But anyways, good.

22:37

Um, so I guess, um, the first, I guess the first step in the question would be, so your argument was, was essentially, you know, hey,

22:49

Genesis is showing us that Adam was alone. Even when all of the animals were there, he was naming all the animals.

22:57

They were all around him. He was still alone. And God said that it, it wasn't good for him to be alone.

23:03

So he, he makes a helper. He makes Eve. And he says that, um, that it's very good, right?

23:10

That, uh, right. That Eve is with him as a help mate. Um, he names

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Eve and he's now no longer alone. Um, so, so that tells us that, you know, obviously we've in some way elevated animals to a position that they weren't meant to fill.

23:29

But then what does that mean for us morally? Um, I mean, is it, is this just like a, like a, hey, you know, whoops, my bad.

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Or is this like, is the sin we're talking about? Is this unwise? Um, actions that we're taking unwise things that we're saying unwise views that we're, um, applying to our animals.

23:53

Or is this something worse? Is this, is this to the point where, you know, it it's, we're in like sin territory now.

24:04

Yeah. I mean, I guess just maybe you could clarify, uh, what is the, this, Oh, uh, the, this would be, uh, treat, you know, treating animals as a member of the family, whether it's, you know, the, the, you know, dog wife or it's for babies or whatever, you know, it's the lizard that's now joined your family.

24:30

Uh, you know, where, where is this falling in terms of moral categories? Yeah. Treating a pet as a family member.

24:39

Um, I think, I think it's a difficult question to answer because there's obviously a spectrum of people who are doing things along these lines.

24:53

And so in some sense, it's like, it's hard to, um, talk about, um, like, like something, you know, like the, like the couple or whatever who has the dog and they're basically has a big sister shirt on it or something like that.

25:09

Right. Um, like if you were to confront them about it, it might be that the response is, hey, yeah,

25:18

I know that they're not their actual sisters. Come on, man. Just like lighten up a little bit.

25:24

And it's just a joke. Right. It's just a joke. Yeah. And as far as that goes, but then the problem is, it's like, it obviously doesn't seem like a joke.

25:35

The problem is it obviously doesn't seem like a joke because it seems like you love this animal as much as you'd love a human being.

25:43

And like your life revolves around this animal and you treat it as if it's a kid. You talk about it as if it's a kid, right?

25:51

You act as if it's a kid. I mean, like you, um, you're turning, you know, from a, for a long time, you've turned to these animals to do for you what human beings should do.

26:02

And so you'll forgive us if we think perhaps there might be possibly something a little bit more to it than just a joke.

26:07

Right. So there's that. I mean, I think, but, um, you know, obviously people, when it comes right down to it, they are going to retreat to,

26:16

Hey, I was just joking, right. Or just quit taking everything so seriously, you know, lighten up or whatever else.

26:22

And you can't really, you know, judge the heart when it comes right down to it. And so there is that kind of basic problem.

26:29

But, but I mean, I would, I would say that, you know, Satan's plan is at every single point to undermine everything that you see happening in Genesis, right?

26:40

So God, like basically gave us the book of Genesis to tell us, you know, basic questions like, who are we?

26:47

Why are we here? Where do we come from? And where are we going? You know, all those basic worldview kind of questions.

26:53

And so if you read Genesis, then what you find is, you know, God made us and he made us distinct, distinct from the animal.

26:59

He's given us dominion over the animals. And so, um, like we're living in a society right now that, you know, basically finds it more immoral for Joe Biden to experiment on puppies, right?

27:12

Cause them harm, then to create a vaccine that is going to, that is done with aborted humans.

27:21

And so Satan's plan is obviously to mix those things up. So God says, hey, we have dominion of the animals.

27:27

God's made us male and female. And then he's told us to be fruitful and multiply. And every single one of those components is being under attack, under attack at every single conceivable level.

27:36

And so, you know, knowing that, then essentially, like if you're the girl who's saying, hey, you know,

27:42

I want to be married, but I can't. So let me go out and buy a dog, right? All right. Well, um, or you're the guy who's like, hey,

27:50

I want someone to love me. So I go and buy a dog and he's going to love me more than any, you know, woman is going to do because women are crazy hard and all that.

27:58

Right. Hard to get along with. They look pretty, but you know, it was just a lot of work. And this is easy. Like the problem is like, what you're doing at that point, like to answer your question, is it like in terms of moral categories, is it sinful?

28:12

Like what you're doing is you're fundamentally rejecting the reason

28:18

God made you. Right. It's like you're doing something like very similar to homosexuality.

28:25

Like homosexuality is like rejecting the natural function of a woman and turning to a solid way shoot to do what a woman is supposed to do.

28:33

Right. So what you're doing is you're rejecting the natural function of the woman.

28:39

And so you're doing something similar to that when you turn to an animal to meet those basic needs for companionship that you're supposed to get through human beings.

28:51

Does that make sense? So there's not fundamentally, I guess just a difference of degree, but not of type.

28:58

Does that make, do you follow what I'm saying? Yeah. Yeah. You mean when you say that you're just meaning, you know, it's the same, it's the same exact mistake that's being made.

29:12

It's just obviously not as bad. Right. Yeah. Maybe not as bad isn't the best way to say it.

29:19

Well, well, no, it's not. I would say it's like sodomy is much worse. Right. You know, a couple putting a.

29:28

T -shirt. A t -shirt on the dog saying big sis, but it's the same basic error.

29:35

Like you are rejecting the natural function of an animal, right?

29:43

Rejecting a natural function of human companionship and trying to find an animal. It's the same type of thing.

29:49

It's just to a different degree of depravity. Does that make sense? So if you're doing that, yes,

29:55

I think yes, that's obviously like you're rebelling against God in a pretty high handed way.

30:03

But the problem is, it's just like, is it like in order to say to make that land or stick, you have to do some sort of judging of a person's heart, you know, where they can just retreat and say, hey, you know, and everyone does.

30:16

It's just like, oh, I know it's not a human being and whatever else. And I, you know, it's just, you know, but it's

30:22

God's creation. We should care for them and everything else. And I'm just I'm just joking. You know, it's just all in good fun and everything else.

30:28

It's like, yeah, OK, you know, but I just, you know, you'll forgive me if I don't believe you. But the problem, though, is that you can't substantiate it like very easily, right?

30:39

Right. You're you're you're left with just OK. Well, all right. If you say so. Right. But if it looks like a dog and it smells like a dog and, you know, then it might be your wife.

30:52

It might be your wife. So is that is that helpful? Yeah. Yeah.

30:58

No, and that kind of brings up another question, which is, you know, obviously, it seems like you're saying this is kind of a.

31:10

When it comes to the way that we as a society treat animals, it's clearly wrong.

31:19

But then in individual cases, it gets a lot harder to distinguish what is sin and what is not.

31:27

So so that begs the question, then, you know, what? How should we interact with our

31:34

Christian brothers and sisters when they demonstrate this kind of behavior?

31:40

I know I know you mentioned earlier that you like to to mess, mess with people and essentially, you know, suggest eating, eating the pet.

31:52

You know, should we have similar responses in general to Christians who are who seem like they're treating their pets more than just animals?

32:04

Yeah. Yeah. If you're not pushing back on it at all, then I would say you're probably part of the problem.

32:10

OK, so you just don't even know it. Like, you don't see it. Like, you don't see it for what what it is and what's actually happening.

32:19

So if you're not like aware of, you know, like the issue then

32:24

I think if you're aware of the issue, then you're going to have to be pushing back. Because, I mean, it's just so like overwhelmingly obvious that you're living in a society right now that absolutely loves animals more than it loves humans and is trying to get from animals what it should be getting from humans.

32:44

And if you don't see it, then you're part of the problem. OK, and so, I mean, like, Matt Walsh just had a, you know, a video on and I listen to him from time to time just to see what pagan

32:58

Catholics like him say. But the thing is, it's like, you know, he was pointing out the inconsistency of everyone sitting there losing their mind over, you know,

33:09

Fauci experimenting on the, you know, putting the little boxes over the dog's head where they're being eaten alive by insects.

33:20

And they were outraged by that and incensed by that. But then you've been creating a vaccine that is done through, you know, aborted baby parts and no one cares.

33:29

And, you know, the comments to him at that point were just essentially to say, like, hey, you know,

33:36

I love animals. Animals are way better than humans all the time. And I mean, at every famous, like, you know, animal death.

33:42

So like Harambee the monkey or whatever, where the kid falls into the enclosure and they have to shoot the ape. You know, everyone is so, like, they're basically just like, you read the comments and it's just like, you know, this is fundamentally immoral.

33:57

Like they're more concerned about the ape than they are about the kid. Right. Or, you know, when one of those circus guys,

34:03

I don't know if it was Siegfried or Roy or whatever, I can't remember who they were, but they got eaten by the tiger and everyone was like, well, that's what you deserve.

34:10

Right. Like we're living in a world right now that absolutely is messed up as far as that goes.

34:16

And if you're not pushing back against it at all, then I think that you're probably part of the problem. Okay. Like if you're not trying to say, hey, you know, aren't we getting a little crazy?

34:26

Like, why is it that, I mean, like I know young women who would love to get married and they can't, but then everyone like they're, you know, they will even tell you, you know,

34:38

I can't, you know, like I'm just going to go instead of get married and go buy a pet, you know?

34:44

Like it's a big, it's a big problem. And then you look at every young couple and it's just like, instead of having kids, they wait like three or four years and get a pet, you know?

34:51

It's like, this is an issue. And if you don't see it, then you're blind. Like, so, I mean, I obviously, I think we should be doing what we can to try to, to say the obvious as far as that goes.

35:08

But, you know, from the reactions I've gotten as I've attempted to do that, I don't, I don't think that many people really realize like how big of a problem this is, to be honest.

35:18

Yeah, I think we should be pushing back. So, what does that look like exactly though?

35:24

So, I mean, I know you're making kind of like the joke about it.

35:31

Are there other responses that would be helpful in terms of pushing back against this idea in your mind?

35:40

Well, yeah, I mean, I think we should be having, I mean, I make jokes about it all the time as kind of preventative medicine.

35:47

It's what I hope to be preventative medicine. And actually, it's just, you know, making me wildly annoying to be around.

35:52

But no, I mean, you know, when I see a young couple and it's like, you know, they go out and they buy the dog,

36:00

I do ask them, you know, what, why the pet? You know, why not children? All right, why aren't you trying to get married? Why not get married?

36:08

You know, why are you going to the animal with this? You know, and I mean, I think that that's a valid question, you know, like to think through and to be asking people.

36:18

As far as that goes. And so, yeah, I think there's a place for rebuking people. Like, what are you doing?

36:24

You know, like, what are you doing with your life? You're a young man who's addicted to porn and you can't stop, you know, self gratification and everything else.

36:33

And you go out and you buy a dog. You think that's going to help you, you know, with your problem? Like, or, you know,

36:40

I mean, I think there's plenty of Christians who, you know, wish they could serve the Lord and do things and be free.

36:45

But then, you know, they're always having to find pet sitters and do everything else because their life is interrupted by this animal.

36:51

And so I think conversations need to be had. Um, out of curiosity, when you ask those kind of questions, what's normally the answer that you get?

37:04

Yeah, I mean, most people, like no one's going to say, hey, yeah, I'm making an idol out of this. What?

37:11

I see what you're saying. I see what you're saying. I'm obviously, you know, making an idol out of this.

37:17

I'm obviously, you know, I'm obviously trying to get from an animal what I should be getting from humans.

37:22

Thank you for telling me, Tim. I mean, I'm just so thankful that you brought this up to me because I've never thought about that before.

37:28

You know, it's like, that never happens to me. What normally happens is it's like, oh, well, you know,

37:35

God gave us animals. And so, you know, I mean, come on, you know, like I know you, you know, we shouldn't treat him like humans and all that.

37:42

But, you know, I can't get married right now. I want to be so, you know, I'm going to get a pet, you know? So it is what it is, you know?

37:49

So it's just like, yeah, obviously I shouldn't treat it like a husband, you know?

37:55

So, but, but, you know, yeah, maybe that's a danger, yeah, that I might be looking to an animal for love when

38:04

I should be, you know, dealing with what's actually going on in my heart in a more healthy way. But no one seems to want to admit it, obviously.

38:14

Um, so, so, uh,

38:21

I mean, we've talked about the difference between, or I mean, there's basically no difference between Christians and non -believers when it comes to pets.

38:31

And essentially, essentially, what's kind of being said, there's, there's really no pushback at all against the, the way that our society views animals at all.

38:45

There's pretty much no, there's no voice out there that is saying, hey, maybe we're taking this a little bit too far here, right?

38:52

I don't even see any big name theologians talking about it myself. Like, I don't, I don't see anyone pushing back at it at all.

38:58

And it's, and that's what's so troubling about it. It's just like, I know that, like, it's, it's a huge issue.

39:04

It's like, why don't people see it? Right. And, and the thought process here is, you know, essentially there's no one really speaking out against this at all.

39:13

And a lot of times when I see stuff like this, I'll see stuff online, you know, like the post that I talked about at the beginning of the episode.

39:22

And, and a lot of times the, the response to any objection that might be made about a post like this is, is, is what you're saying.

39:34

It's like the, oh, well, obviously, you know, people don't actually think this way and, and no one is crazy enough to actually call their dog, their wife, and this guy must be kidding.

39:48

Or if he's not kidding, he's the only one out here saying that it's not, it should be normal for him to be, you know, sexually attracted to and committed to for life.

40:02

This dog that is now filling the role of his wife, or at least attempting to feel, fill the role of his wife.

40:10

So here's why I think that is, I can tell you why I think it is.

40:17

So is that, is that where you're going with it? Are you going somewhere else? Well, well, I'm basically, I'm, I'm basically wanting to ask, you know, if no one's, if no one's stopping, if no one's stopping this and the, the response is always like, well, this isn't normal and, and normal people don't think this way.

40:32

But then the reality is, I mean, doesn't it seem like it's kind of inevitable?

40:38

That if there's nothing there to stop it, it eventually is just going to go there, right?

40:45

Well, I think, yeah, and that's kind of what I, I think what's happening is we've, we've accepted an idea of a pet and that leaves us, like in a thoughtless way to where that leaves us to where we don't really know how to interact with what's happening.

41:07

So what I mean by that is I think that the idea of a pet in of itself is inherently problematic.

41:14

Now, when you say that, I think that sounds extreme, but you have to give me a few minutes to explain what

41:21

I'm saying. But I mean, I think the idea of a pet itself is inherently problematic.

41:27

Now, if that's the case, then like, I don't think people have like stopped to consider what a pet actually is.

41:37

We've just accepted that that's fine, right? There's no biblical command that says thou shalt not have a pet or something like that, right?

41:46

But then there's like the idea of a pet itself. I'm trying to say, I think that there's problems with the very idea of a pet.

41:53

And so if you accept that, then you really don't have any way of like stopping all the problems that we've talked about.

42:01

Okay. So I was trying to figure out, what is a pet? And it's a very simple thing to do is because like all you do is just look up dictionaries, pet, right?

42:10

And so a pet, obviously is a distinct category of animal care over and against different types of animals.

42:19

But like you look up pet in the Cambridge dictionary and what you're going to see is a pet is an animal that's kept in a home as a companion and treated kindly, right?

42:31

All right. So dictionary .com, any domesticated or tame animal that's kept as a companion and cared for affectionately.

42:39

So those two definitions, you think about that and you think, whoa, like there's a lot in that definition that you might not have thought about, right?

42:49

Like an animal that is kept in a home as a companion. Now, Merriam Webster gave a different aspect of a pet and Merriam Webster basically says a domesticated animal kept for pleasure rather than utility, okay?

43:05

And so if you try to simplify what you just, what I just read in two ways, it seems like in common usage, a pet is one of two things.

43:16

One, it's an animal companion, right? Or two, it's a domesticated, like a tame animal kept for pleasure rather than utility.

43:25

So what that's meaning is, it's like an animal distinct from a horse. So you have a horse, right? And a horse has a purpose.

43:30

It's useful in certain ways. It's gonna be a mode of transportation that will drive you around. I mean, typically people, they may name their horse, but no one typically considers a horse a family member, right?

43:41

Because a horse doesn't live inside your house and you don't treat him as a family member and you don't, you know, you could imagine plenty of Westerns where the guy gets attached to the horse because, you know, they've been everywhere together and all that and the horse has learned how to be ridden by him.

43:58

And you know, it's like, you know, but I mean, most of the time, the cowboy, when he loses a horse, he, you know, he curses and says,

44:05

I lost a good horse, you know? But he's not grieving as if he just lost a family member, right?

44:11

And the same kind of thing. But then like a cow is kind of, you know, you don't keep the cow in the house. It'll destroy the house as far as that goes.

44:19

And most of the time you don't name them. You may want to name them like hamburger or something like that. But if you're smart, you don't try to name the thing and, you know, treat it like a family member.

44:29

But like, you know, a horse has a certain utility. Cow has a utility. You can get meat or, you know, milk or hide from it.

44:40

Chickens have certain utilities, but no one would, you know, fall in love with their chicken, really, right?

44:47

Hopefully not. Hopefully not. Hopefully, who knows? I guess you can't really count anything out at this point.

44:52

Well, I think I remember hearing a story about that, but I'm not going to talk about it. But yeah, anyways.

45:01

So, but I think like the point though is that the idea of a pet is, in some ways it seems to be like the product of...

45:13

I'm just making a generalization. It seems that we've done wonders with breeding animals to the point where we've domesticated like the modern dog and the modern cat, right?

45:24

So in the Bible, like dogs were like scary. Like beware of the dogs.

45:32

Beware of the mutilation, right? Like you read that in the Bible and you don't think, oh man, like nice, you know, puppy at home.

45:39

Man's best friend. Man's best friend. You don't think that. You think pack of wild dogs is going to eat you, right?

45:45

And that sheds a little bit of light on Lazarus laying there and having his sores licked by the dogs. Like these weren't like puppies.

45:50

These were like wild animals that were licking his sores. Like this is not a happy, nice picture.

45:57

This was something else, right? As far as that goes. But so I think one of the things that we've done is we've attempted to like breed the wildness out of dogs and cats and everything else.

46:09

And to the point where, I mean, largely we've done an okay job of it.

46:16

And now, I mean, you know, there's still stories of like woman goes jogging with two pit bulls who gets eaten by her pit bulls or whatever else, right?

46:25

Like, and I mean, there's plenty of dogs that I've been at, you know, where they're sitting there barking at you and growling at you.

46:32

And their, you know, idiot owner doesn't realize that you're about to get eaten by this animal. You know, oh, they're nice.

46:38

You know, they're nice and they're friendly. It's like, yeah, okay. Well, can you put them up please? Because they don't seem nice and friendly to me.

46:44

It seems like I'm about to get eaten, you know? And then if I try to defend myself, you're going to be mortally offended.

46:50

You know, by this thing here. But anyway, so the point though is just to say,

46:57

I think the idea of a pet in general is an animal that is either viewed as a companion or an animal with no functional utility that's just there for pleasure, right?

47:08

And like the first part of that, an animal kept as a companion, like that seems to me to be fundamentally wrong in the way that we've just described.

47:20

Right? Like if you're looking to an animal to be your companion, the problem is that God doesn't want you to find companionship among the animals.

47:28

Like that's why he said Adam was alone in the garden while all the animals existed in the world, right?

47:35

And then he tells man to find companionship with humans, not with animals. He says, you know, it's not good for you to be alone.

47:41

I'm going to make you a helper. And then, you know, go get married, have babies, right? Fill the earth full of people. And then, you know, there's a restatement of that in the new covenant, where you fill the world up full of disciples.

47:52

And you're told, you know, God's building a church. And then you're told to admonish one another, correct one another, exhort one another, rebuke one another, love one another, greet one another, welcome one another.

48:00

Like you're supposed to look for this idea of companionship or fellowship or koinonia in the

48:05

Greek. And, you know, in terms of the New Testament, you're looking for that with people, not with animals. And so like what

48:11

I'm trying to say is like, it seems like the idea of a pet fundamentally is an attempt to reverse that most often.

48:18

Okay. Or, you know, it could be in a simple way. If you're just, you know, if you're not going with Cambridge Dictionary or dictionary .com,

48:26

you go with Merriam -Webster. And it's just like, well, it's that animal that's been tamed and kept for pleasure rather than utility, right?

48:36

And so like, it seems to me that like the, what I'm trying to say is the idea of a pet is inherently problematic in and of itself.

48:42

Now, if the idea of a pet is inherently problematic, if like you're looking for a pet to be a companion, right?

48:50

And not just something that's just like, oh, look at that. That's pretty neat. God's creation right there, you know?

48:57

And we get to enjoy seeing all what's funny little things and everything else. You're just pure pleasure, not companionship at all.

49:04

But I think that that idea though, more closely is the companion idea. And I mean, and that's why my son said, hey, you know, we got a new member of the family with the lizard, right?

49:13

It's because it like the most natural idea of a pet is an animal companion. And I think that that's, you know, so, but then basically if you say, okay, this animal is a companion, right?

49:26

Right. Then like you've lost the whole argument at that point because then it's just, well, like, yes, like it's okay for them to be companions so long as they're not too close, you know?

49:38

You see what I'm saying? And so you don't have any way to push against anything that just happened because you accept the idea of a companion animal as normative.

49:47

And then I would just push back and say, hey, wait a minute, is that normal? Right? Is that like, are you doing something fundamentally flawed there by looking at them as companion?

49:57

And then what would it look like for you to say, hey, like they're not a companion at all. Wouldn't you have to be proactively telling yourself, this is not a companion.

50:05

This is not a companion. I don't need to treat them like a companion. This is simply just an animal for pleasure, right? Or like some kind of function, you know, like it's a guard dog.

50:15

I'm a single woman, you know, no one will marry me because all these guys are crazy and failed in the launch and, you know, everything else.

50:21

And so I need some sort of protection and everything else. So, you know, strained relations, family, whatever, get a dog.

50:31

Okay. Without wading into all that, it's a guard dog. You know, it's like, okay, well, fine.

50:38

It's your guard dog. Are you going to cry and have a funeral for it when it dies? Really?

50:46

You know what I mean? So, I mean, but I imagine there's a type of redneck that probably would, you know, it's like, oh, it's my guard dog, you know, whatever.

50:53

Well, it's got rabies. Time to go put it down, you know. On to the next one.

50:59

On the next one. You know, that was a good cattle herding dog, you know, but anything, but yeah.

51:05

So I think we've accepted, the longer it is, the shorter it is, I think we've accepted that fundamental contradiction, like in the idea of a pet itself.

51:13

And so then basically, like, that's why no one's speaking out against it because we just don't know how to, like, we just, you know, once you, you know, start down the dark path forever, it will dominate your destiny, essentially.

51:27

So, okay. So are you essentially saying, in no way, shape, or form, is it really a good idea to ever have an animal in your house unless it's meant to perform some sort of, like, service for your family or something, you know, like the guard dog, or maybe you get, like, the, you live on the farm and you get the cat that eats all the -

51:55

Rephrase it, say it one more, yeah, let me make sure I understood. So you're saying, am I saying in no way, shape, or form, is it okay to have an animal in the home unless it has some sort of specific, like, utility or function?

52:05

Is that what you're saying? Yeah, like, unless it has some form of, you know, use, essentially, or I guess, like, maybe,

52:15

I know you had said somewhere in your answer that you might could get away with the, you know, the animals providing some form of pleasure.

52:27

Now, obviously, we're not talking about pleasure in the same way the guy that posted the picture is probably talking about pleasure.

52:35

No, not that kind of pleasure. But, you know, some form of, oh, wow, you know.

52:41

Joy and, yep. You know, look at God's creation kind of thing, we can observe it up close. You know, are those kind of, is that essentially what you're saying?

52:50

Like, hey, those are the only acceptable times to really ever have an animal in your house and ever call it a pet.

52:59

Does that make sense? Yeah, I mean, I think, yeah, no, I understand what you're saying. I think it's, I don't, I guess there's two kind of questions there.

53:06

One is, like, can the animals go in your home, period, right? Right. And then two, if they are, then, you know, should it only be for, like, utility or, you know, joy or something like that?

53:21

And I would just, you know, I would just say, you know, is it, it's not intuitively obvious to me that most animals are even really good house guests, right?

53:32

I mean, most, I mean, most homes I go in with animals in there, I mean, like, they look like a barn, they smell like a barn.

53:40

You know, you go in there, you get hair all over yourself. I mean, it stinks. And, you know, if you're not accustomed to the smell, it's, it can be,

53:49

I mean, it's like, they tear up your house. Like, I know there's many animals out there that don't just, you know, without significant training, tear up your house.

53:57

And, like, most people are not, like, demonstrably good animal trainers, right?

54:03

Right. I mean, it's just the reality. Just, like, I'm, you know, not saying anything shocking.

54:09

It's just, like, they tear up your homes. Like, they tear up your homes. They make your home smell like barns and kennels.

54:17

And as far as that goes, I mean, like, worst case, you know, they, well, like, best case scenario, you know, they tear up your furniture and, you know, make everything smell.

54:30

Worst case scenario, you start to get fleas or ticks on yourself by living with them. Or, you know, worse, they start attacking you or biting you or, you know, you or one of your kids or a guest or whatever else.

54:44

I mean, I don't know that they're, they often excel at hospitality. I don't know that people who, you know, don't like animals typically like going into a home and having an animal jump all over them and, you know, scratch up their clothes and, you know, everything else.

54:57

And, you know, I was doing a job at a house recently and the dog comes up there and sniffs my butt, you know?

55:06

And I guess when I walk in there, it's just like, what in the world? This is not my thing here, you know?

55:14

You're barking up the wrong tree. Don't nobody go there, you know? Like put their face there, you know, get away, you know?

55:22

But I mean, so they don't make, so I mean, I think it's like, you just on a practical level,

55:28

I don't, you know, give you allergies. You know, it's just like, if you want to have a nice hospitable home, it's not like really all that wonderful, you know, way to do it.

55:40

But then like biblically, so that's just pragmatic answer to the question. But then biblically speaking, you know,

55:47

I do think like, if you are going to have an animal in your home, then you have to like, be very diligent to be telling yourself that this is not a companion, right?

56:05

This is not a companion. So I'm not using Cambridge dictionary definition of pet or dictionary .com

56:13

definition of pet. This is not my animal companion. Like man was not made to find companionship among the animals.

56:20

This is simply a domesticated animal kept for pleasure, right?

56:27

But then I would say that, you know, in 99 .999 % of the cases, people aren't able to keep that distinction in their mind.

56:39

Like, I don't think, I think they're fundamentally failing at it because the idea of a pet in and of itself is just training you to treat them as a companion.

56:48

And I don't think most people have the intellectual or moral kind of fortitude necessary to, you know, treat something, bring something into your home like that and not emotionally tie yourself to it as a family member, really.

57:09

Mm -hmm. Particularly with all the influences out there that are just training us to do that very thing.

57:15

You know, I don't see anyone, I don't see many people successful at it, you know?

57:21

Right. So, and I think you would be successful at it if like, if you could, like if the dog died and you don't cry, right?

57:30

You go get a new guard dog, I would say you probably won. You know,

57:36

I think you probably did it well, but I don't know that many people, I don't know anyone who does that. Right, right.

57:42

In fact, I mean, you know, your dog dies and you send out a, you know, social media message asking everyone to pray for you and, you know, you're grieving this, you know, bad or worse as you would, you know, if a human being died and like that,

57:58

I don't think that's like, I think that's not, whatever that is, that's not godly grief.

58:04

Right. That reminds me of a time, I think my wife was out of town and it was just me here and we have one cat and for whatever reason,

58:17

I had left the window open in our kitchen and we live up on the second story of a building that's really tall.

58:26

So the second story is actually much higher than a normal second story would be,

58:32

I think. And so I had this window open and I was off doing, I don't know if I was cleaning or what

58:39

I was doing, but I heard something get knocked over by the window and my immediate thought was, my stupid cat just like fell out of the window probably to his death.

58:56

And then my, I mean, my only thought was just simply, what a stupid cat.

59:03

There was like, he's probably dead or if he's not dead, there's no saving him at all.

59:09

Not that I would want to try anyway. And so it's just like, well, he's gone now.

59:18

Whatever, stupid cat. So you passed the test. I guess now it's time to make a pair of gloves out of him or something.

59:28

What's left of his fur. Okay, so I guess that's a good transition.

59:35

I mean, I don't, I'm not trying to say that there's like, Bible says a righteous man cares even for his animals.

59:42

And I don't know that, I think anytime even an animal dies, I think it should be a reminder to us that like sin has entered into the world and death is result of sin and death is an enemy.

59:53

And so I think that there's a kind of sadness that is appropriate to something like that to where it's a kind of sadness to say, this is the result of our sin, right?

01:00:08

And one day God's going to come back and set everything right and fix it all and everything else.

01:00:13

And so just kind of like, I'm not advocating for a little kid with a magnifying glass, like burning the ant up and glee or delight or something like that, because it's just worthless garbage.

01:00:27

It's like, well, no, these are creatures that have the breadth of life in them too. And they're affected by human beings, moral decisions.

01:00:34

But I think the kind of sadness there should be a moral sadness that is just like, it's a reminder of the sinfulness of human beings.

01:00:45

But I don't think it should be this extended overpowering, grieving, that would be appropriate to human being.

01:00:53

I mean, that's just totally inappropriate in those moments. And if you have let yourself get that attached, it is because you were looking to that animal to do something more than just be a source of enjoyment and or have some sort of utility or function or value.

01:01:11

I mean, it might be that you're the little girl on the farm and every time the cow gets slaughtered, you cry because you're a sensitive soul or whatever else and you can't help your emotions or something.

01:01:25

But that's kind of a childish thing that you should grow out of, right? Uh -huh. That shouldn't be characteristic of adults.

01:01:32

You know what I mean? Like that's something that hopefully you grow out of and it's endearing in a certain way, but like it's not healthy for adults to behave that way.

01:01:46

As far as that goes. So, I mean, if you're driving your car down the road and you hit a deer,

01:01:52

I mean, I think unless you're like, you know, have no sensitivity whatsoever, it's just like, oh, well, you know, like he got what he had coming, you know?

01:02:03

It's just like, well, that's kind of sadistic. All right. That's a little weird. Yeah. But I mean, like just to sit there and, you know, cry like a baby for, you know, three weeks about the deer, you know, it's like something happened, like what's going on, you know?

01:02:17

Like there's bigger problems there than everything else. So, but yeah, no, if a person is able to, you know, lose a pet and not be reduced to a blubbering mess for weeks and weeks and weeks,

01:02:33

I would say that maybe they figured out how to do it well, but I just don't see many examples of that because I think the idea of a pet itself is problematic.

01:02:44

Well, I think that leads me into the next question pretty well, which is essentially, you mentioned earlier,

01:02:51

I can't remember who it was, but talking, it was

01:02:56

Fauci. Yeah. Fauci testing on the dogs or whatever. And people were more upset about that than about abortion, right?

01:03:07

They're more upset about testing on dogs than they are about baby murder.

01:03:13

And, you know, obviously I think for, I think for Christians, my experience with Christians when it comes to what

01:03:23

I'm about to ask is essentially, Christians kind of have this response when it comes to like watching movies, for example, you watch movies and there's the human characters.

01:03:37

And then oftentimes there'll be like the family dog that's in the movie or whatever it is, the animal that's tagging along.

01:03:46

And a lot, my experience with people is whenever we, whenever we watch those kinds of movies, the response is normally something along the lines of,

01:03:56

I was more sad when the dog died than when the human characters died.

01:04:03

And this is so kind of universal in terms of people thinking that way, that there's even websites.

01:04:11

I don't know if you know this, but there's websites that you can go to when you're gonna watch a movie that essentially, they'll tell you if the dog dies, right?

01:04:23

So, I mean, there's one, I think it's literally called, does the dog die? And it's a website dedicated to telling you.

01:04:29

It's because, hey, you know, it's because you've rejected the function of human beings and you're looking for that in animal. And the fact that you, like the very act of looking for companionship in an animal is an act of despising human beings itself, right?

01:04:47

And I mean, that's what you're doing. So just like a sodomite looking to a man to find what he should be finding in a woman, he's, that very act is training him to despise women, right?

01:04:59

And it's not sure. And like, that's why, you know, sodomites, they hate kids, right?

01:05:06

Like they hate kids, like over and over and over again. Like they just like, kids are inconvenient and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

01:05:12

And you know, ugh, kid, ugh, you know? It's like, it's because they're like, the very act of that is like despising, you know, children and women in a certain way.

01:05:23

And when you're looking to pet for companionship, instead of a human being, that very act of turning to an animal for that is an act of despising human beings.

01:05:31

So that's why you have that. Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah. And that's essentially what I was going to ask is, why are people this way where, you know, you watch

01:05:40

John Wick and the guy. He's trying to kill my dog.

01:05:45

His dog gets, you know, quote unquote murdered in the beginning of the movie.

01:05:52

And then he goes on a mass murder shooting spree, essentially. Now, I guess maybe somehow you could try and justify his killing of definitely in the, like killing hundreds of people, probably.

01:06:09

And I haven't watched how many, I haven't counted how many people he kills in the first movie alone, but surely it's over a hundred people that he kills because his dog dies.

01:06:20

Maybe you can justify it a little bit in saying that, well, look, his wife gave him the dog and then she died.

01:06:27

And the dog was the only thing he had left to remember her by or whatever. But then still you can't go on a murder spree because the dog dies.

01:06:38

Yeah, I think that's essentially why though, that the act itself of looking to an animal for that is an act of despising human beings, fundamentally.

01:06:53

I mean, you know, and that's the whole thing. I mean, like, you know, like a girl goes into lesbianism or whatever else, it's like, it's an act of hatred for men.

01:07:00

And it's no shock that she hates men and like doesn't want anything to do with them because it's a rejection of men, right?

01:07:08

In that way, or the sodomite, it's a rejection of women and offspring and children. Like it's a rejection of those kinds of things.

01:07:14

And when you're looking to an animal, I mean, that's what people are doing. You know, instead of getting married, they're looking to an animal for that.

01:07:22

And like, when you feed that, you feed your affection, you put all your affections, all the stuff you're supposed to be putting into a human, right?

01:07:30

All these like emotions, and you're tying it now to an animal. You're doing violence to your relationship between you and other human beings.

01:07:38

You're making yourself a less healthy person, like in terms of emotionally and mentally and everything else, that's what you're doing.

01:07:46

And so then that's why people reacted, like the way that they react is because like, this thing was their replacement human, right?

01:07:55

And so like they're taking all that stuff and they're putting it into this dog, this animal.

01:08:02

And that's why they despise human beings and it shows up, you know? And that's why you have all the, like the things you're talking about, and that's why we care so much about it.

01:08:11

And so it's because the act itself is a rejection of humanity, fundamentally.

01:08:17

Now, I have seen some people who, when you bring up like the movie and the dog dies or whatever, or you see the news article where, you know, the family dies and the dog was with them and the dog died too or something.

01:08:34

I have seen some people argue, well, hey, the reason it's more sad that the animal died is because the animal is essentially defenseless.

01:08:47

Like normally, I think we view animals as kind of morally good, especially the pet golden, the family golden retriever, right?

01:08:57

And so some people argue in terms of -

01:09:04

Yeah. Like the next day - Right, right. It'd be sad to see, but then human. Yeah.

01:09:10

So that's obviously, so that must make it more sad, you know? Because essentially the dog is somehow more of a victim than the human was.

01:09:19

So what's your response to that kind of objection? Sure, I mean,

01:09:26

I think, you know, you look at an objection like that and essentially, I mean, I think my, the other explanation is essentially what's happening on a fundamental level, but then that would be just,

01:09:41

I think that kind of objection has a long history of training to get us to that point.

01:09:49

So, I mean, you watch Bambi or something like that and, you know, you're greeted with the ominous words, you know, man has entered into the forest and we've had like years and years and years of training to essentially train us that like human beings have no place in the natural order, essentially, that we're seen as an intrusion.

01:10:11

And so like, you know, movies like Bambi or, you know, Avatar or that kind of stuff, like we're trained to think that man is an interruption into the natural order itself.

01:10:23

And so like the natural order itself is fundamentally kind of like this good thing and this is kind of where the natural path movement goes as well.

01:10:32

It's like nature is deified, nature is seen as like good, right? And then by virtue, by extension animal, you know, all like how many times you've heard people talk about, you know, animals seek to live in harmony, you know, as far as that goes.

01:10:44

And, you know, then human beings, like we mess everything up, you know, because we're consumeristic, materialistic

01:10:50

Westerners who, you know, with capitalism and all that kind of stuff, right? And so, but the problem with that though is the

01:10:56

Bible says that the creation itself is subjected to futility, you know, and like the creation itself is fundamentally broken.

01:11:05

Now it's broken on account of human being sin, but it's broken. And so like, there is no, you know, you have all these animal rights advocates who are, you know, weeping over the death of tigers, you know, in these third world countries or whatever else that are getting shot by these hunters.

01:11:24

But then like the people on the ground are like getting eaten by these tigers, you know, because the natural world is set in opposition and hostile to us at fundamentally every way.

01:11:36

I mean, that's why the Bible describes like false prophets as brute beast who are made to be caught and destroyed like animals.

01:11:42

Like there's a fundamental disharmony that was introduced with the fall, meaning like there's a war against the offspring of the serpents and the offspring of the woman, right?

01:11:52

Now, like that has a spiritual parallel, but it also has a physical parallel in that the natural order is set against us in hostility to us.

01:12:00

I mean, bears are trying to kill you. You know, tigers are trying to kill you. Snakes are trying to kill you. Alligators are trying to kill you, right?

01:12:06

And like now, I think in, you know, after years and years and years of effort, we managed to domesticate a few animals, right?

01:12:15

But not many, you know? Like you're not gonna domesticate a raccoon or a possum or, you know, anything like that.

01:12:22

Well, some people want to do that. Well, I'm not saying it.

01:12:28

Well, you'll probably have a video of people doing it eventually, but I'm just trying to say that, like you just look at, you know, there's horror stories of like, you know, the hippies living with the commune of lions who are getting attacked every day, you know, to make the movie and all that.

01:12:42

And, you know, that's been covered up. But I mean, like the thing is, like we are fundamentally at war with animals in a way that only will really truly be resolved when

01:12:53

Christ returns. And so now with like animals, I think we've kind of trained through, you know, genetic engineering in many, many years, certain breeds of dogs to be compliant and doormat kind of dogs, right?

01:13:11

But then there's, for any of those stories, there's still plenty of other stories of the two pit bulls eating the jogger, you know, or the old man getting eaten by his household of dogs when he comes home, you know, after not feeding them for long enough, you know?

01:13:27

And so like, the thing is, I mean, like, there is a fundamental disharmony between man and animal that maybe we resolve in certain ways and maybe we don't, but like, there's more going on than just like, oh, well, these are innocent animals, right?

01:13:45

I mean, like, if you think about like the behavior of animals, I mean, they're fundamentally immoral by human standards, right?

01:13:53

I mean, like the male lion comes into the pride and, you know, kills the old guy, you know, who can't defend himself, takes all the ladies for himself and then like kills off all the little baby lion offspring in order to, you know, like that's like fundamentally immoral.

01:14:07

But the thing is like, there is a truth that like morality doesn't even apply to the animal kingdom because it's only a human concept, you know?

01:14:15

So if you're thinking about it that way, it's like, this is inapplicable anyways, right? Like, meaning like to hold like an animal to human standards is fundamentally a contradiction in terms, morally speaking, anyways, right?

01:14:30

Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah. When you were giving that explanation, it reminded me of this video that I watched a long time ago where like,

01:14:44

I guess, I don't know if it was a, you know, a documentary or what it was, but it was very graphic.

01:14:50

It was these hyenas were chasing a gazelle, right?

01:14:56

And they catch the gazelle and they, I mean, just start tearing the gazelle apart and it's extremely graphic.

01:15:05

You're seeing everything and then all of a sudden you realize that this gazelle was pregnant and they rip out the, you know, the like baby gazelle or whatever you call them before they're born and no, this must have been, this must have been online somewhere.

01:15:22

Hopefully no one's eating while they're watching, or listening to this. Yeah, yeah. Cause it was, it was graphic.

01:15:27

It was very graphic. We need a trigger warning at that point. Yeah, I wasn't ready for that, but I think it was online somewhere.

01:15:35

Like maybe I saw it on Reddit or something. I'm not sure, but all the comments were like, this is so sad.

01:15:41

I can't believe this would ever happen in the wild, you know, but then you think about that juxtaposed to what we are doing as a society, you know, you're, you're, you're murdering 60 million babies, you know, in the womb there, they never get to be born or really have a chance at the life that God's given them.

01:16:00

And then most people aren't even batting an eye at it. So there's obviously a clear difference in terms of,

01:16:07

I mean, a disturbing indignation, disturbing difference. But what's, what's interesting about that also is that, you know, that kind of thing only makes sense in the

01:16:19

Christian worldview, right? So meaning like, if you have an evolutionary worldview, then obviously like the hyenas are doing what hyenas are doing is survival of the fittest, right?

01:16:31

And if we're just like advanced animals, then where is the outrage for the puppy being experimented on?

01:16:38

Where is the outrage of, you know, human beings putting animals in cages and dominating them and, you know, using them for food and everything else.

01:16:48

It's like, it's like the animals aren't following these rules. Like they're, they're our carnivore animals.

01:16:54

And so, you know, where's the outrage coming from? It doesn't come from an evolutionary worldview.

01:17:01

Like evolutionary worldview basically says, if might makes right, right? So if we, if we're stronger than them, we're smarter than them, you know, they do just as bad to each other as what you think we're doing.

01:17:13

So right, right, right. Um, I don't, I don't know why, I don't remember what you said that made me think about that, but I was just like, this is such a strange contradiction coming into the line.

01:17:27

Coming in, it must've been, it must've been that, um, but I guess all guys taking all the women and, you know, whatever.

01:17:35

Um, but I guess that leads me to the, the last few questions, which are all kind of coming from the same vein.

01:17:42

Um, you know, when you think about, it seems like the Bible really, really is trying to tell us that, uh, especially in, especially in Genesis that God has given us, uh, the animals to help us and, and serve us and be subjugated to us.

01:18:03

Um, and, and, you know, in an agricultural society that mainly looks like, you know, you have, you have the oxen that are plowing your fields and you probably, maybe you have horses or, or in the

01:18:17

Middle East, camels that, um, you, we use or donkeys that we use for transportation.

01:18:23

And, you know, they, they have a lot of different, um, farm applications, but then we obviously don't really live in that same society.

01:18:30

And, and even, even when it comes to, uh, people who have based their livelihood in agriculture, we, we're so advanced at this point that oftentimes you have giant, uh, giant, yeah, giant machines that are, that are doing all of this work at, uh, much more efficiently than animals ever could.

01:18:52

Um, so we've, we've begun to find other uses for animals. And, you know, a lot of times it's things like,

01:19:00

Hey, you put, you put Shamu and the Cade or in the enclosure at SeaWorld, or you put the, the polar bear and the zoo, you know, and Birmingham, Alabama, or whatever it is, or you test, you know, uh, make new makeups or medications on animals, uh, to see if they're safe for humans.

01:19:20

So, um, you know, a lot of our, a lot of our conversation has been about,

01:19:26

Hey, we don't need to, we we've taken our care for animals far beyond whatever it was supposed to be.

01:19:35

I mean, we're so far past the line that it's, it's crazy is we're trying to marry a dog.

01:19:41

We're we're trying to marry our dog. Right. And, um, so that, but that does beg the question, you know, um, we've taken it this far.

01:19:51

Are these, are these new uses that we've, that we've found for animals?

01:19:57

Are they, are they acceptable uses? Should we be, um, should we be upset?

01:20:03

You know, when it comes to the Fauci thing, should we be, should we be upset? You know, um, at least to a much lesser degree than, the, the baby murder, uh, that's going on to try and come up with a, with a antidote to COVID -19.

01:20:23

Should we be less upset, but still upset? Or should we not care at all that, that, that those kinds of things are taking place?

01:20:31

What, what should our view as Christians be to understand that God has, um, he's subjugated the world to us.

01:20:40

Uh, but then he's also, he's also entrusted us with, you know, keeping it and taking care of it.

01:20:48

Sure. Yeah. And I don't, I don't know that, um, it seems like there's so many questions at that point that I don't know that I'm going to be able to unravel them all in a quick, quick way.

01:20:57

But, um, like in terms of just, uh, um, some, um, you know,

01:21:06

I think I could probably come up with 20 different questions or ways to go about trying to answer all that. um, I think, um, maybe you could talk about different eschatologies at this point to try to get at some of that.

01:21:20

So, um, it seems like the eschatology of avatar essentially is to say that, you know, the salvation of the earth is going to be found by basically getting rid of all the humans and letting nature be like, by itself in its raw form.

01:21:38

Right. So there's an eschatology like that, that essentially the human being is the intrusion upon the natural order.

01:21:45

And basically every, like it, like human being has no place in the natural order. It by itself is a good, that needs to be left alone.

01:21:53

And the only way, like the logic of that ultimately is the humans must die. Right. And I mean, that's like the plot of, you know, movie after movie after movie is that, you know, we've intruded upon this and we just basically logic is we just got to go.

01:22:07

Right. So that everything could be healed. Right. Right. And so you have like an eschatology that has no human being involvement in that.

01:22:15

Right. And then I think on the opposite extreme, you have like an eschatology that has no place for animals, you know, and basically just in a simplistic way, say says that all animals are just made to be caught and destroyed, right.

01:22:29

And disposed of. And so they're not human beings. And so then you have an eschatology that's just totally, you know, only humans, right.

01:22:37

No place for animals, right. Kind of thing. And it seems like that there's some kind of middle ground thing.

01:22:45

I mean, not necessarily middle of the road position, but there's some way to say, Hey, human beings are part of the natural order, right.

01:22:55

They're not intrusion upon it, but then animals are also part of the natural order in a way that God designed.

01:23:02

And I would say that, you know, God has pit the two of us against each other because of the fall.

01:23:07

And there's some things that may never be resolved. This side of, you know, the Lord's return, like the bears are, you might always, you know, eat you.

01:23:19

Right. I mean, there are predators who will just kill you if they can. And like that, there may be no way to wreck, like you may never tame the hyena pack, you know, and if you try, you know, your kid might.

01:23:30

I mean, I remember a story of, you know, a person keeping an exotic pet as a pet or whatever. And the,

01:23:36

I think the leopard came and, you know, bit the baby's arm off, you know? And I think that there's like, there's, there's a war there that's going on.

01:23:45

And, but then the thing is God. So I think like that the fall has introduced difficulties between animals and humans that may not be overcome in this life.

01:23:54

So that it may be that every time you see a tiger, the appropriate thing to do is shoot it. You know what I mean? Because it's made to become destroyed and it's going to, it's either you or him.

01:24:05

And God values your life more than his because you're made in his image. Right. But then, so, so I think, you know,

01:24:12

I think God's designed the world in such a way that, you know, all the animals have their part and we're supposed to use our wisdom and intelligent to figure out how to trust that he had a purpose with them.

01:24:24

Right. And I mean, I think you could think about how ecosystems actually work. And it's just like, you kill off all of one animal, then the other animal grows, you know, out of control.

01:24:32

And then there's problems that are introduced. And so, you know, just coming in there and thoughtlessly removing God's creation, isn't just an answer.

01:24:39

And at the same time, though, worshiping, you know, the creation and, and basically elevating them and status or dignity above you, it leads to its own share of problems as well.

01:24:51

Right. And so God's given, given us dominion over like we're more important, more intrinsically valuable than this aspect of its creation.

01:24:59

But then there's a distinction. So it's like, Hey, we're more valuable than animals, but then animals have more dignity because they have the breath of God in them than a tree.

01:25:09

Right. You know, and maybe a tree has a little more value than a rock, you know, okay.

01:25:18

Like there's a hierarchy of things, but then, you know, so I don't think we should just thoughtlessly, you know, you know, just thoughtlessly without any wisdom, just destroy every animal you come across.

01:25:31

But if I see any bugs in my house, they're all dying, you know, or if there's any predators in my backyard, they're gone, they're dead.

01:25:38

You know what I mean? Like that's the way it works. And so, but yeah, so yeah,

01:25:44

I don't know that there's a simple answer to that other than just to say, I mean, I mean, and that's part of an answer to that is just to say that, you know, we have to be wise and, you know, and the

01:25:54

Bible says a righteous man cares even for his animals. And, you know, we're living in a society right now that machines can do a lot of the work that animal can do, animals can do.

01:26:02

And so, you know, like putting them in a zoo or like preserving them and keeping them around is something that we can marvel at and say,

01:26:09

Hey, isn't God, God's creation unique and something to be enjoyed. I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

01:26:16

You know, if you have that choice over just, you know, kill all the tigers off or put them in a zoo, you know,

01:26:22

I mean, that is doing something good. But then, you know, if you're living in a third world country where you're being raided by the tigers,

01:26:34

I think you're going to want them to die, you know? All right. So there's that, but now should you experiment on them?

01:26:41

I mean, I think there's something sadistic about the kind of kid who's like, you know, throwing the cat off of the, throwing the cat off of the roof, just to see if he always is going to fall on his foot.

01:26:52

You know, that kind of thing. I think that you're showing, you know, despising

01:26:58

God's creation and just, you know, causing it needless harm is not helpful in any respect.

01:27:05

And so I think that is showing contempt for something that God made for a purpose. And if you don't know what the purpose is, you might want to be cautious in what you're doing, you know, as far as that goes.

01:27:18

And, you know, the wrath of man doesn't produce the righteousness of God requires taking out your temper on a dog. Taking your temper out on a, you know, on your donkey, if it's preventing you from going where you want, because an angel with a flaming sword is taking your way, you know, like, that's not a good thing, right?

01:27:35

Right. But, you know, whether or not it's okay to experiment on animals or issues of factory farming and that kind of stuff.

01:27:43

I would say that if the, you know, PETA had its way, you know, humans would be dead and the animals would be alive and we feed, you know, more people over the world because of, you know, some of these techniques that are considered inhumane.

01:28:00

So I think an animal is worthy of dignity, but it's not worthy of a kind of dignity that humans are worthy of.

01:28:08

Okay. So, and, you know, I don't know that every pet, I don't know that every animal deserves its own backyard with, you know, its own air conditioned pet dog house or something like that.

01:28:22

So, yeah.

01:28:28

So, now I think that there's ways that you can just be unnecessarily cruel to your food, you know, and that's worthy of more extended discussion than this, you know, but then at the same time, you know, ultimately animals are part of the creation that we have dominion over that, you know, you're living in a human centered world, not a animal centered world too.

01:28:56

Right. But any follow -ups you want to ask on that specifically? I guess the first one is, would, wouldn't you say that when it comes to the person who is, you know, like the, the kid who throws the cat off the roof 12 times to see how many times the cat lands on its feet.

01:29:15

I mean, wouldn't, wouldn't you say a part of that is, uh, it, that must inform, um, that must inform an observer in terms of how highly they would view human life as well.

01:29:31

Right. I mean, if they're, if, if they value an animal so little, uh, that they would just pick it up and, and throw it off the roof for no other reason than just to see what happens.

01:29:44

Um, isn't it like a rational thing to say? What, what's stopping this person from taking that farther?

01:29:54

I mean, I think so. I mean, I think, uh, I think so to some degree.

01:29:59

I don't mean that in terms of, you know, obviously the animal is as valuable as a human.

01:30:06

Therefore, um, if they're, if they're willing to do it to the animal, they're willing to do it to a human.

01:30:12

I mean it more in terms of, in terms of, uh, you know, I think it could be like progressive.

01:30:19

You know, pushing the boundaries more and more and more. Yeah. I think it could be that you're, yeah, obviously the kind of kid doing that kind of thing might be a serial killer in the making, right?

01:30:33

Just enjoys causing things harm, perhaps, you know, like I, I wouldn't want to, uh,

01:30:39

I w I mean, and it might just be that he's, uh, I mean,

01:30:46

I wouldn't necessarily say that like, I mean, kids like destroy everything, right? Right.

01:30:52

So like they tear up the toys, like, you know, go over their friend's house and tear up everything.

01:30:58

And just, you know, they don't, you have to kind of train them to like take care of things in general, but then

01:31:05

I wouldn't say, okay, yeah, you know, you poke holes, holes in your, you know, your, your friend's wall with a stick or something, right?

01:31:14

Like it, well, that's just, uh, you know, psychopathic, uh, you know, contempt for things that's going to lead you to be a serial killer, but I mean, it may, you know, but, but I mean,

01:31:26

I think, yeah, I think, I think, you know, there might be in a lot of cases that kind of, uh, correlation though too.

01:31:36

Right. But then the problem is like the animal rights people, um, you know, they look at things like, like they, um, they don't have any, like there is a difference between the animal and the human.

01:31:48

Right. And so it's like, if you shoot the deer for food, aren't you causing them pain? And aren't you killing their life?

01:31:54

Yes. And are you doing it? So in order to eat? Yes. You know, it's like, well, are you training yourself to be a cannibal? Well, no, right.

01:32:02

And I'm treading myself to like a deer burger, you know, that's what we're doing. The classic gateway drug to cannibalism.

01:32:11

Right. It's like, no, I mean, it's like, you know, so yeah, I think that, I think though, when you do show that level of like callous contempt for God's creation, you're doing something that's fundamentally immoral, you know, and, um, you, when you despise

01:32:27

God like that, why would you have any respect for people? Generally? Sure. Yeah.

01:32:33

So the next one is, I guess, just more pointedly asking, you know, when it, when it comes to like the, uh, test testing stuff on animals, for example, testing medicine on animals to see if it's safe for humans, where, where exactly does that typically fall in terms of, um, the morality of it?

01:32:55

I mean, is it, is it a scenario where you say, uh, well, Hey, look, the options are either we test it on animals or we don't test it at all and possibly risk unnecessary human death.

01:33:10

Or is, or is it a conversation, maybe more along the lines of, there's gotta be some other way to think, you know, um, try and figure out the safety of, of these types of drugs or, um, or maybe even worse for some people listening, you know,

01:33:26

I know they, I know they test like makeup and stuff on animals and, and that's obviously not nearly as, as crucial, uh, um, an endeavor.

01:33:36

It's not as certainly like we don't need makeup, right? We just, we just like to use makeup.

01:33:43

So is that really justifiable more, uh, morally, in terms of testing those kinds of things on animals, medicine and, and makeup as the examples.

01:33:54

Yeah. With the idea of, is it okay to experiment on animals, uh, or, you know, makeup testing, makeup on animals, that sort of question.

01:34:02

It seems that there's several kinds of passages in the Bible that you want to try to harmonize. So you want to harmonize the proverb, which tells us that a righteous man is good, even to his animals.

01:34:13

And so it seems that a righteous man won't seek to cause, uh, animals unnecessary harm.

01:34:22

Uh, but then at the same time, there's a whole, another set of passages that say, uh, like second

01:34:28

Peter two, 12, that describe animals in this way, but the, they're, they're compared to false prophets.

01:34:33

And it says these like irrational animals, creatures of instinct born to be caught and destroyed.

01:34:39

Um, you know, because, uh, of the effects of sin, you have a whole category of predators that are put into the world, uh, just simply to be an obstacle to humans that, you know, if you were living during the time where dinosaurs existed, you, you're gonna, you see an animal, it's either you or them.

01:34:59

And because you're made in the image of God, your life is more valuable than them. So there's not some, you know, universal pro prohibition against causing animals pain, uh, period.

01:35:08

In fact, some animals need a good killing essentially. That's the point. And so, um, that's true.

01:35:15

Uh, but I mean, you know how God has given, you know, in the creation mandate and, and as it's restated with Noah, God's given us animals for food.

01:35:26

And so, um, so one of the things to realize is that in order to, um, eat an animal, you're gonna have to kill it and you're gonna have to cause it pain.

01:35:34

And so you can't just say in some simplistic way that any attempt to cause an animal pain is morally wrong.

01:35:40

I think you're gonna, um, not want to cause it unnecessary pain, but then the nature of this question is that we're trying to answer the question, what is necessary pain and what isn't right?

01:35:51

So that's essentially what we're trying to get at. Now, I think, um, in the

01:35:58

Bible, if you think about the idea of the scapegoat in the old covenant or the, uh, where the sins of the people are put on the, on the goat and it's, you know, driven out of the, uh, city or like the idea of sacrificial lamb,

01:36:10

God has instituted that, uh, you know, you have animals that were killed, whether birds or lambs, um, in order to become a substitute for, uh, humans to protect them from death.

01:36:22

It seems that you have a principle in those kind of, uh, examples that would mean that causing an animal pain in order to prevent, uh, to mitigate the effects of the fall for human beings in some way.

01:36:36

Uh, there is some precedent for that in the Bible. So it doesn't seem to me that in some sort of simplistic way, uh, you can, uh, articulate that it would be morally wrong for an animal to take the place of a human, uh, like their life as a substitute for the human's life.

01:36:54

Uh, so it seems like some saying that in some sort of simplistic way would be, uh, not faithful to what the

01:37:00

Bible is teaching. So it does seem that there is at least, um, some category of animal testing that could be put into that category, um, that would be, uh, morally permissible as far as that goes for me.

01:37:14

Now, um, I think there's obviously different types of testing that you could do on animals.

01:37:20

I don't, I brought up the Fauci situation where he's, uh, putting, you know, dog's heads inside these little enclosures and insects are eating them, um, while they're alive, that sort of thing, or, you know, even

01:37:33

I've seen like disturbing videos of, you know, of, um, I think

01:37:38

Chinese people basically boiling a dog while it's still alive in a pot.

01:37:45

And I just, I think that seems to me,

01:37:50

I'm not disturbed by the fact that they're eating it. I'm disturbed by the fact that they're boiling to death in a pot while it's still alive.

01:37:56

And so I, I think, you know, not all animal testing is equal. And there are

01:38:03

Nazi kind of experiments that you could do on an animal. You know, I just, you can get the tiger and, well, it's a creature made to be caught and destroyed.

01:38:11

And so let's see how many arms it can cut off before it dies. Kind of experiments that, Hey, it may get you some useful information, but is that morally necessary?

01:38:20

Um, as far as that goes, or, Hey, what would happen if we, you know, cut off the lower, uh, part of a tiger and tried to attach it to a cow, legs or something like that.

01:38:33

I think that there are things like that, that you should probably, that don't pass the smell test in the same way.

01:38:39

But in principle, I think there is some sort of category there. You just need, you know, probably a better ethicist than me to work out the particulars as far as that goes.

01:38:48

Now, the idea of testing medicine on a, art testing makeup on an animal.

01:38:54

What, um, what, what were you thinking of when you asked that?

01:39:00

Cause you, you seem to indicate that that was morally more reprehensible to some people than the idea of experimenting for like medicine.

01:39:08

What is the thought process there? Yeah, I think, um, so some, basically for anyone not familiar,

01:39:15

I think what happens is, you know, you have these makeup companies that make whatever product and, and, you know, they'll say some, it'll be like eyeliner or something that doesn't irritate the eyes or something along those lines.

01:39:33

um, essentially what they do is they, they'll take the eyeliner and put it in the eyes of animals to see their reaction to it and whether or not, uh, you know, they respond to like a, a, a painful reaction from the makeup.

01:39:51

And so for some people, you know, this is like a moral, morally reprehensible action because it's, it's not even, you know, life or death, kind of trying to, trying to test it on animals so that we can see,

01:40:06

Hey, will this be deadly to humans or something? It's just, um, about level of comfort essentially.

01:40:15

And, and they don't really see that as, you know, a worthwhile endeavor to, to put animals through some kind of pain just to see if the makeup doesn't irritate your eyes or something like that.

01:40:29

And so for some people that seems way worse. And so I wanted to hear what you had to say on, you know, you've talked about the, yeah, when, when it's life or death, you know, um, even the

01:40:41

Bible has, has plenty of scenarios where you, you give up the animal for, um, the preservation of human life.

01:40:50

But then what about these sort of lesser examples where it's not about the preservation of human life or, or really even human wellbeing is just more kind of comfort.

01:41:01

So what are your thoughts on that? Yeah. I mean, human will be, I mean, comfort would be in the category of human wellbeing though too.

01:41:07

So I don't know that I would, um, distinguish that in such a harsh way, but I take the point you're making as far as that goes.

01:41:15

Um, maybe part of that discussion is just a discussion on the permissibility of makeup or that kind of thing.

01:41:23

Anyways. And so, uh, maybe part of the reaction there is, uh, you are living in a society right now that, you know, let's be honest.

01:41:34

Feminism makes ugly women. Okay. So like, if you want to learn how to be like revolting to men, just be a feminist.

01:41:41

And so like the, in part of that is, it's true. Well, I mean, a rejection of femininity at almost every level to where it's almost like more desirable just to have woman in her natural, you know, let the armpit hair grow.

01:41:59

Don't take a bath, you know, uh, let the leg hair grow. And I mean, there are plenty of like, you know, quote unquote,

01:42:05

Christian women who were having, who feel morally offended at the thought of even wearing makeup or at all, or, you know, why should

01:42:13

I have to be, you know, attractive, attractive to a man or subject to the male gaze or, you know, it's almost as if it's more virtuous to be hideous to look at, you know, than it is to even try, you know?

01:42:25

So I think part of that discussion might then hinge on how, on makeup in general, and maybe we need to have a whole podcast on, you know, should women wear makeup, you know, kind of thing.

01:42:45

In general, but, you know, it seems it, it still does seem to me that it's hard to have a simplistic, you know, any pain that is caused to an animal to aid mankind in its basic tasks that are given.

01:43:04

And I mean, I think, you know, for women, you could just read through the old

01:43:09

Testament. And I just read through the song of Solomon, just read through different stories in the old

01:43:17

Testament. And the idea of beauty preparations for a woman, like prior to getting married,

01:43:23

I mean, that's just a normal, natural thing. Like women are created to be beautiful. And I don't see why using the creation in order to accomplish its purposes is a bad thing.

01:43:35

I mean, I think, you know, the fact that we've invented razors and things like that, right? Like I think that anything that can,

01:43:43

I think the fall has a way of marring, you know, female beauty. And I think using technology to try to enhance it is probably a good thing.

01:43:52

I mean, I'm glad that we have deodorant. I'm glad that we have baths, you know, I don't think the natural scent of a man is, you know, very inviting, you know?

01:44:04

And so if there's a way that we can like eliminate through technology, some of the, like, it may make, you know, pursue what the opposite sex might find desirable.

01:44:17

I think that's largely a good thing. And yes, I mean, I would rather an animal that's made to be caught and destroyed go blind, instead of like a woman going blind, as far as that goes.

01:44:29

So, like, I mean, I think that there's, you could do that kind of thing with pain medication and stuff to eliminate some of the things.

01:44:38

But I think that, I, you know, it's hard to give a, I think without getting into the weeds of what particular thing

01:44:44

I, it just seems to me that like, if that is just, it more hinges on what you think about makeup in general,

01:44:51

I think, you know, as far as that goes and, and you probably need a longer discussion on that.

01:44:58

But yeah, I think, that I don't think in a simplistic way, you can just say, oh man, that's just awful.

01:45:06

Unless you adopt some kind of personification of animal, DFI animals in certain ways, or just have no category whatsoever for causing an animal discomfort period.

01:45:17

You know? So I think you have to adopt something like that in order for it to be totally morally impermissible.

01:45:22

Okay. Okay. Well, I guess to just to kind of take us home on the episode, now that we've discussed a lot about, you know, it feels like basically a lot of what we talked about this episode is here's what you shouldn't do with animals.

01:45:40

Here's how we shouldn't view animals, how we shouldn't treat animals. So if you could just take a minute and maybe explain for everyone listening,

01:45:50

I mean, probably, I'm pretty confident in saying that probably most of the people who will ever listen to this podcast probably either have a pet right now or have had a pet at some point in their life.

01:46:06

So maybe just take a moment and explain what you think the

01:46:11

Bible tells us about how we should actually treat pets in general.

01:46:19

Sure. So I think animals are, obviously, God had a purpose in bringing animals here.

01:46:26

And I think most naturally, when you think about the purpose of animals in general, you think that,

01:46:34

I mean, you could see, I think, particularly in agrarian societies, how they can have some sort of usefulness.

01:46:40

So an ox can help you plow a field, you know, a cow can give you milk and give you hide in order to clothe you and everything like that.

01:46:49

And so I think, in general, the normal way that God has designed animals is to have some sort of utility, as we've talked about, to be useful in some sort of way.

01:46:59

It'd be a means of transportation, to be a source of food and clothing. And that sort of thing.

01:47:06

And I also think, beyond that, you have animals that are here just to marvel at and wonder at.

01:47:15

And they point you back to God and his good design for the earth and his wisdom.

01:47:20

And they reveal certain parts of his attributes and everything else. Now, when you talk about pet, I think the concern that we've addressed in the course of the podcast is the concern that people are looking to pets to do, to meet these basic needs for companionship, desires for companionship that they've had.

01:47:39

And so what they're doing essentially is they're treating an animal like, they're investing all the emotions and desires that they should be invested in human beings and looking to human beings, they're looking to animals to do that.

01:47:53

And so with those two definitions of pets that were given, they are looking for animals to be a companion in a problematic way.

01:48:03

But it seems to me that it's possible to have that second usage of animals as a pet, meaning that they're there for pleasure rather than utility.

01:48:16

And I would say that we most naturally know how to do this already with animal pets, not as companions with certain kinds of animals over and against others.

01:48:29

And so, you know, if you have a pet parakeet, for instance, I don't know that anyone is going to weep and sob and cry over the death of a pet parakeet or a pet turtle.

01:48:41

Well, maybe if you're the main characters of Dumb and Dumber. Pet's heads are falling off.

01:48:47

Pet's heads are falling off? Yeah, but, yeah, all right, so, but I mean,

01:48:57

I think like the idea of, you know, you go to some sort of, you know, millionaire's house and he has a glass wall that is an aquarium with a bunch of fish in there.

01:49:07

I mean, no one like has some sort of emotional attachment to these fish. I mean, you can look at that and you say, oh, isn't

01:49:12

God good? Isn't that neat? Isn't that neat? Like something, so I think we have the idea already of a pet for enjoyment.

01:49:18

It's already present in our vocabulary. It's just that with particular types of pets, we as a society,

01:49:24

I think, have given ourselves permission to attach all of our emotions to them as if they're humans, you know, human beings, substitute companions for us and we're looking to them to do for us what human beings should.

01:49:37

And so I think if you could try to figure out the difference between like a pet turtle or a pet parakeet or a pet fish and a pet, whatever you think would be appropriate to level of enjoyment and love and care you would have for those kind of things.

01:49:53

It's probably, you know, honestly, the kind of love and care that you should have for pets.

01:50:01

And, you know, I was talking to a friend of mine about this and one of the things that he was pointing out is

01:50:08

I was talking about some of the things we were talking about in the episode. And he was saying that it seems to be that like a very unique problem with our generation.

01:50:17

Like we can all imagine like the crazy cat lady or whatever else who has like the 20 cats, but that crazy cat lady with the 20 cats, like if one of them died, she just goes and gets another one, right?

01:50:30

There's not like the same kind of emotional attachment to the animals. And if you were to look at a lady like that who has all those cats,

01:50:38

I mean, that was something that in past generations you kind of pity her. No one wants to end up like that, right?

01:50:44

No one wants to end up like that crazy cat lady. But right now it's like, I mean, I've talked to young people and they're spending $4 ,000 on, they're in college trying to spend $4 ,000 on their animal companions, you know, that are therapeutic animals for them.

01:51:02

And they don't even feel embarrassed by the fact that this is, they're dependent upon a therapeutic animal, right? Like there's something dramatically different that's happening and I think it's that we're doing all the bad things with pets instead of just looking at them like you might look at a turtle or a fish or parrot, you know?

01:51:21

So I would think that we already know how to do this with most animals except for cats and dogs, right?

01:51:29

And it seems like we don't, we no longer know how to keep them in the proper perspective anymore because we are so used to feeding this, you know, human instinct impulse with them, if that makes sense.

01:51:42

Mm -hmm. Yeah, I haven't seen any pictures of people feeding a piece of pizza to their wife turtle.

01:51:53

At least not yet anyways, maybe that's coming pretty soon. Yeah, I mean, but you can imagine like the, you know, the wife, you can imagine the pet turtle dying and like the kids and the family all cry, right?

01:52:05

And then you think, oh, well, that's like, all right, kids, like this is your first encounter with death.

01:52:12

You need to grow up, right? And when you, but then you can't really imagine a grownup crying over a turtle. If a grownup is crying over a turtle, it's like something's wrong with you, man.

01:52:20

You're like, you've lost your way here and it's like, you need some help, right? Maybe you need to go to counseling.

01:52:26

Snap out of it, man, get a grip. Get off the ground, you know, like what's wrong, you know? But then

01:52:31

I think, so I think we already know that. It's just that for some reason, you know, we've allowed ourselves with particular types of animals to go, you know, all of our emotions, put them in there in a way that is really abnormal historically, really.

01:52:51

So is that helpful? Yeah, yeah, no, I think that's a good kind of landing question to finish on.

01:52:59

So this has been another episode of Bible Bashed. We hope you've been encouraged and blessed through our discussion.

01:53:06

Now go boldly and obey the truth in the midst of a biblically illiterate world who will be perpetually offended by your every move.