July 26, 2016 Show with Dennis Gundersen on “Your Child’s Profession of Faith”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Chris.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania.

And the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming.

This is Chris Arns and your host of iron sharpens iron wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this

26th day of July 2016 and we are thankful that the

the server the overseas server for leading -edge radio network finally

Kicked in and allowed us to connect on the air.

We do not know why this has been happening a few days Lately and

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I don't know.

I'm very very untechnical as Anybody who knows me personally is fully aware, but I'm just

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Anyway, God has saw fit to get us on the air and I hope that you are

Still listening those of you who began listening at four o 'clock, and I'm delighted to have on the

program today.

Dennis Gunderson, I've been trying to get him on the air for quite some time and the Lord has

providentially Opened up the opportunity today to discuss a very important book of his

titled your child's profession of faith.

The Apostle Paul in his first letter to the church at Corinth chapter 13 verse

11 He wrote when I was a child.

I used to speak like a child think like a child.

Reason like a child.

When I became a man I did away with childish things.

I think this is one of the key reasons why this discussion today is extremely important

on your child's profession of faith.

So I'd like to welcome you to iron sharpens iron Dennis Gunderson.

Yes And.

Dennis has been a pastor for a number of years.

He is now retired and dedicating his The time that the Lord has allotted him to

writing and running grace and truth books.

And why don't you tell us something about grace and truth books?

Well, we began a number of years ago kind of a auspicious small way we

Had a missionary some of your listeners.

Oh, yeah.

27 years in Papua New Guinea.

Perhaps you've interviewed on the program.

I have interviewed David at least two maybe three times.

I even interviewed his brother at one time.

Okay.

At three or four supporting churches he was in

Papua New Guinea.

You actually taught me something new about him.

I did not know that he at one time was a part of the Restorationist or Campbellite churches,

however, you want to phrase it.

That's interesting.

I do have I do have many friends in that movement, but I happen to be as you know Theologically

reformed and see that as a much more biblical system of theology

and that exalts God to his rightful place and Reveals to

man the low the lowliness that he The lowly state that he possesses and

being totally depraved and completely helpless without the grace of God.

Yes, the same here.

That's our doctrinal stance as well.

So we published a book about one of David's missionary journeys when he asked me if I would help him

Break into the world.

Publishing.

And.

From that point on we ended up.

Oh, we've.

We've published about 80 books now most of our children's books from the

1800s that deal with Godly character or some facet of evangelizing children.

Gospel center children's books that are very very different from a much more

challenging and rather rather direct

around for 23 years now.

All right, great.

Well, you the the ministry or the publishing ministry?

Grace and truth books just so our listeners can write this down.

I will hopefully repeat this several times during the program, but it is grace and truth

books calm grace and and that's the full word and not just the symbol.

Grace and truth books calm.

And we hope that you visit that site and Are blessed by what they offer

there now.

You were a pastor for quite some time before you wrote your first book.

Which is the book we're discussing today your child's profession of faith.

How long were you a pastor?

I.

Did serve for 26 years in pastoring and by the way, it's very likely.

I'll be back in that role again.

Seven

years of

including professor.

There go so three

through in a way two different churches in a way three.

You could say a second church.

We became a third church, although

quite a few of those people who were in the second church.

There's been continuity between the.

And.

All these churches that you have pastored were you always Baptistic or a credo Baptist as

they say.

Someone who believes that baptism.

The ordinances.

The ordinance of baptism is Restricted to those who are old enough to believe.

Yes, that's right, we've always been a well.

Before we even go on I'm going to announce our email address for our listeners in the event that they would like to join us on the air

with a question.

It is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com and Please give us your first

name your city and state your country of residence if you if you live

outside of the USA and.

We look forward to hearing from you and your questions and This book.

What was occurring in your life?

Pastorally.

That you really said to yourself.

I've really got to write this book.

Your child's profession of faith.

But it must have obviously had something to do with parents questioning you on.

Well, how am I to trust?

The validity of my little child who is saying That he loves Jesus.

And maybe singing the song Jesus loves me this I know for the Bible tells me so.

And maybe praying with you.

Maybe maybe even asking Mommy and daddy to take him to church to be baptized.

I'm assuming that had something to do with writing this book.

Providentially it was a really interesting period in our our church life.

I was pastoring Tanglewood Baptist Church at the time.

Tanglewood is a little neighborhood

west of far

from us.

There there was a

Southern Baptist Church

and numerous families from there As well as other Southern Baptist Churches then began to be attracted to

our church.

They came as

close and began to

observe

teenagers and

one after

another was them in

this topic, but I

also had camps.

Youth camps we would send our kids off to a good quality one.

There's that were

good.

And

it

just

was.

Oh, yeah,

very

well.

Yeah, and he said let's take that sermon and publish it into a booklet.

We did that look at Calvary Press publish.

It's gone from a single sermon.

Yeah, I was working part -time for Calvary Press when this first was published and definitely looked thinner back then.

Well this.

Issue of a child's faith is Obviously a one of the parents

greatest concerns and if not the greatest concern of a parent because a Christian parent Obviously

wants to have the peace of mind and heart that their children that their children are going to be in

glory with Christ for eternity no matter what may happen to them.

And so it is obviously a Crucial issue on how we are to

view their their profession.

Yeah,

because

parents

are often.

Blinded well, even not just parents people in general may be blinded by their love

For someone and that is multiplied that is multiplied many many times over with a parent and a

child Who may just see what they want to see and hear what they want to hear

because they are so anxious about the spiritual state of their child

and so I'm sure that a parent even more than anyone could be deceived

just as Men or women who are Looking for a

spouse and there begin courting someone and they can be very often blinded to.

All the things that they do not want to see in here especially especially if their desire to be

married is is overwhelming everything else that they should be concerned about in their Christian life,

but by the way, I just I want to let our listeners know that my

frequent co -hosts my Presbyterian co -host BuzzTaylor.

He is bound and gagged now in the studio.

He cannot he's not being permitted to say a word in the broadcast today because of his views of infant baptism.

No, I am just kidding Buzz could not make it today for other reasons.

And and he will likely be back at least from time to time to To co -host with

me and I'm looking forward to that.

But this book even though it's primarily For Baptists or

Baptistic Christians credo Baptist Christians.

I do know that there are pedo Baptists like my friend Dr. Joel Beakey and others who

are very concerned about the flippant way Or the

misguided way which many pedo Baptist pastors and parents

view.

The necessity to see true conversion in the hearts and minds of their

children they the presumptive regeneration Is something that not

all pedo Baptists agree with and many are very concerned about the very thing that you're writing here even though

there may be different applications here, but this is a Universal thing in the body of Christ,

is it not?

Yes.

A number of pedo Baptists Told me they appreciate the themes of the book and

you know, sometimes I've even heard kidding here.

We've got some kidding from pedo Baptists.

Do you say that we shouldn't baptize our infants and say you actually only you just wait a couple years later than us and then You go ahead and

baptize them anyway.

You don't do it at birth, but you know.

You don't work very well afterwards and then you go ahead and do it and you and you still end up with the same fruit.

You know and you say that well our practice Tends to to have

never experienced genuine conversion.

Well, unfortunately, we all know that.

Oh, yes.

Yes, Jim Ellef our mutual friend that you just mentioned he happens to be a Southern Baptist and he

has spoken a lot about.

And.

Regrettably had to speak in public about the rampant

nominalism in the Southern Baptist Convention and other Evangelical and

Baptist groups particularly in the Bible Belt where people

Are assumed that they are Christians just because they were raised in a Christian home and many

Children when they turn the age of 12 or 13, they're just told by their parents.

Well, it's time for you to be baptized.

So they're really Functioning just like pedo Baptists in many senses, aren't they?

And you spend

close to 20 pages in the book discussing the intellectual immaturity of children.

If you could we already read from 1st Corinthians 13 11, which

the Apostle Paul addresses that.

But if you could.

Add on

to

that.

Yes.

I

bring a

book at

one

point

that

a very young child might say in a mature moment that I think I want to

marry this for that

person.

Would it go

in.

Probably.

The key point I bring out

on that matter is simply yes, I

mean.

As much as we all love children, and if we don't love children, there's something wrong with us, but

We don't take their word with such concrete

certainty At very young ages that we would permit them even to

be voting members of a church or to make Important decisions in other areas of life

other areas of life that are even infinitely less significant than the

choice to follow Christ.

Now, obviously, there are some of our Calvinist friends who bristle at the term choosing

Christ, but even though we are Thoroughly reformed in our understanding of the order of

salutis We do believe that men choose Christ, don't we?

It's just that the Holy Spirit is as the first enable us to we need it.

Yes the new hearts to do this.

Absolutely.

Now, what do you mean by the changeableness and instability of children?

Yeah, and not

to bring out the like children.

More than interesting that

likewise, you know

The Lord's

carry

that

all the

way through.

Is not there.

They may not

follow.

How long

that it is.

Factors that

no one can lay

down

a

specific.

Don't react.

Yeah, I mean aren't children as they're growing up, especially in the younger

years or months aren't they very often just parroting their parents and those

around them and They see that they get rewarded when

they say words and say makes Make statements and phrases and things like that and

they're applauded and they're hugged and they're kissed and they're you know

all kinds of things that Let the child know that the parent or whoever is around them is very

pleased with what they said.

So obviously when they start saying that they love Jesus when parents are clapping

and Praising the child for that that's just going to and I'm not saying that that's a wrong thing to do.

But but I'm just saying that that is a it makes it all the more Difficult

to discern whether that those statements are coming from a genuine

belief and understanding even if it's a Very limited understanding.

It's very difficult to to discern whether it's real.

That's right.

Yes

approval from their parents because.

Certainly in a godly Christian.

Under the direction of their parents.

The leadership of their even a natural goodness

of right things and.

One of the points.

Children in a Christian home.

It would it would actually be positively abnormal and perhaps Even indicative of something seriously

wrong.

Joyfully about

the government

about it.

They hear exhortations about it.

They see fellowship only as the world

revolves.

Unless they detected just being in the home that the trade that none of

this was real.

It would be very normal.

Want to replicate.

But then when

they

were

five six seven years old It would be very unusual for that to take place where they were being

practiced.

You know when a child is 16 if he still just really has not believed.

Small.

But even if his parents are very godly people.

A

generation

in that case, but in the early.

Yeah, I mean it would be in fact It would be shockingly bizarre if a very young child were to say I don't believe

in Jesus or something like that.

That would.

Yeah, I mean the only the only sign that you might have that would be normal of a

child's Unbelief would be his resistance of wanting to

get up get dressed and go to church or something like that.

Yeah.

Laziness or disinterest perhaps.

And of course, there are many Christian adults who go through the same problem sometimes.

You gotta go through that struggle we have to Harden, right.

But we're going to do a break right now.

And if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own.

For Dennis Gunderson on your child's profession of faith.

Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris a RN Z in a gmail .com.

Please give us your first name your city and state in your country of residence if you live outside of the USA.

Don't go away.

We're gonna be right back with Dennis Gunderson.

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That's the private story.

Welcome back.

This is Chris Orrins and your host of iron sharpens iron if you just tuned us in for the entire two

hours today.

We are interviewing Dennis Gunderson on his book your child's profession of faith.

And if you would like to join us on the air with a question of your own.

Our email address is Chris Orrinson at gmail .com.

Chris Orrinson at gmail .com.

We have Robert in New York City who asks would you ever?

Baptize a child who was not yet in his teen years.

And if so, what kind of evidences would be required before you would do so.

Yeah, that is Exactly the court

thankful to hear at any time.

I Have baptized a number of children under 10

did choose to go

ahead and

baptize was merely a verbal

Profession that I have believe

things was that

and not just the parent.

To be baptized and the child wanting to do so as an actor a real act of obedience to

Christ his Savior, I think my

kids been going

teeth to your

or something now that he can't speak up

about it.

And if that's the case, then well for whatever reason someone cannot articulate

We can't baptize someone who does is unable to make a verbal profession of faith, even if they're just flat -out scared to talk.

We need to at least wait.

Interest in attention to the

Sermons to the preaching to

apply them.

He had pretty much ignored the Lord's Supper during the time when the Lord's Supper would go on.

Which happened frequently at our church?

It's weekly our church now, but at that time it was frequent, but not weekly.

Well, you know the adults are going to do this thing and I'll just kind of be bored for a little while.

He said it began to sink into me what didn't

symbolized here and he said I Began to weep and just this was crying over

sins, he died for me and When

I saw him

backing and thankfully, I

know many of

those children

as adults now, and they're

still pregnant.

Hmm, and by the way, Robert, we've got a surprise for you.

You are getting absolutely free of charge a copy of your child's profession of faith.

Compliments of our guest and grace and truth books and it will be shipped out to you.

Compliments of our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible book service CV bbs .com

CV bbs .com and we thank Todd and Patty Jennings for their faithful support of iron

sharpens iron and for shipping out all of our winners books Absolutely free

of charge to us at iron sharpens iron and free of charge to you as well.

So we thank them for that.

Yep, they do they're great folks.

And We have an anonymous listener in Michigan

Who says I have a daughter that professed Christ at 14?

Lived as a practicing believer until her late 20s and Then when

her husband cheated on her has abandoned Christ.

She explained to me That the Lord didn't answer her prayers by saving her

marriage.

Is my daughter.

Backslidden or unconverted.

And how does one determine the difference between these two categories?

Yeah, and.

It's real apostasy

indicated by it being

you

know, often

wins to

the enormous disappointment.

It's the Lord for him seeking the Lord for something.

That would be very God honoring to save their marriage.

Irresponsible for me to answer in too much depth not knowing the daughter not knowing this individual

say that in time.

You will know whether God or disappointing

with his

own

feelings

or is just lying.

We've all been there at some point or other on some level and it's going to be a matter of will sure will she choose to Remain

in that posture.

And say this is it.

I'm done with Christ.

He's a disappointment.

He didn't see people go

through periods of rebellion for come

back.

What's going on in their hearts?

Then there's tragic time

strong rejecting so.

Which

one

it

is

in her did

it swallow and

God meant

all

of

this for

good?

Well anonymous listener you are going to get a free copy of this book by Dennis Cunderson your

child's profession of faith.

If you give us your full name and address, which will obviously not be Announced on the

air.

So your anonymity will remain concealed and we will

Look forward to sending that out to you as soon as possible.

Thanks to our friends at grace and truth books and also at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.

So get that to us as soon as possible and.

I.

Just heard recently of from a friend of mine who will also

remain anonymous Who is a pastor?

Who raised his children in the faith, obviously, and this is a very faithful pastor

a very wise intelligent pastor.

And this pastor's daughter Unfortunately met a man in a cult

fell in love with this man in the cult and Converted to this cult's

religion and was just last week married in this cult and

the.

The pastor the man I'm speaking of could not even bring himself To go to

the wedding or participate in it because he Warned his daughter and.

Her.

Groom that they were in the synagogue of Satan and he could not put his

blessing upon this so I Would appreciate you to pray not only for an anonymous listener

but our my anonymous friend as well as they Seek the Lord's

wisdom at this time in their lives on how to relate to their children.

This is a this brings up an interesting question that I hear quite often from

Those who are pato Baptists or for those of our listeners who don't know what that term means.

It's basically someone who believes in baptizing infants although the word actually I believe means little

children, but but it's commonly used by people who

Baptize infants and they will say to us who are Baptists were Baptistic or credo Baptist

That we have no argument that holds water.

No pun.

No pun intended.

When we say that we insist upon Repentance and faith as

litmus tests For someone who is a proper candidate for baptism because

we do not know The heart of that person and that we frequently as Baptists

or credo Baptist Christians We frequently baptize people that are

in reality unregenerate and then we find out later Wow, we made a mistake there that person's not

regenerate and this person has lived many decades after this baptism as a

rebel against Christ and his word now isn't the difference between

Certainly baptizing someone that you have no clue whether they're a believer or whether they're

regenerate and knowingly Or should I say with good

intentions?

Baptizing somebody that you believe has demonstrated

Biblical repentance and faith and you are just going by the only clues that a human

being can Can judge a person's Profession on.

I mean, it's not like we're just haphazardly as Baptists baptizing anyone that just says

words and of course there are Baptists that do that, but we as reformed Baptists

tend not to take a Very flippant attitude towards somebody's profession when we have

them baptized.

That's right, yeah, and you know when when the pedo -baptist can point to

baptistic far too often, but.

They there really is no one that would have any basis to say.

Well, you're you're wrong to withhold baptism.

You want to wait for a faith and that

you know.

You you don't know for sure the fact is every every believer

in our

opinion is whether this person

is based on

the other think that well.

We shouldn't make that judgment regarding baptism there.

They just really have not thought through to not make that

decision.

I've I've got to assess that and decide whether to baptize someone

aren't going to be

prepared.

Biblically by the Spirit of God.

Now.

What what do you mean in your book?

When you refer to the likelihood of deception in children, I don't know if you would

agree with the term Vipers and diapers.

I think even I think even a pedo -baptist John Gerstner the

late John Gerstner.

I think he even described children that way, which is unusual for a Presbyterian but

Tell us about that the likelihood of deception in children.

Just bound up in the heart of a child

and the whole theme of the book of Proverbs that Young children are

nature.

Presented, you

know in a

subtle way

to mislead

them.

I remember

hearing one.

I think I could walk down the street in any neighborhood and he said I could knock on a door.

He says 10 under he said he is no matter

what kind of home.

I think you're probably right and he wasn't meaning that he intended to do that.

It wasn't good or 10 or visited.

He said likewise.

He said you could go even younger age.

He's got a child five six years old.

He said if his parents told him said we no longer believe in Jesus.

We've become Muslims.

We're gonna learn that child's

development at later years where he would probably this.

So what there's.

I do not.

I'm not going

to

follow

you down that path,

but the

younger the child tell

us about the.

Childhood being a time for patient cultivation.

Yes.

Certainly Parents

need many years

actually

mature.

That implies

that

there's

going

to be we

have

a listener.

Joseph in Suffolk County, Long Island.

And Joseph says Judging from what you have said, is it

dangerous to parade?

Children around in church at all different types of performances and

cantatas and Celebrations where they are on stage

leading the Congregation in worship and doing other things

that would give them Further confidence that they are truly Christian when in

fact, they may be Just deceived little children.

Group of children.

My thought would be you know That this turning

church life and give us my

judgment call

would be

that group of children on occasion I would not make a

Serious lack of habitual

in song to the church.

I think it would send a misleading message.

I'll

part.

Exactly

what.

Yeah,

you

you

just

reminded me

of something that I.

Found very humorous, but in reality, it's not really very humorous at all.

It's disturbing but years ago someone Had told me that the church

that they had grown up in The Elder board

and the deacons got together to vote on a man that was being presented

as a Candidate for the diaconate and they voted him into the diaconate.

So he would start going to church.

It was the request of the wife to get him in

accepted into the diaconate so that he would begin to go to church, so that's.

We don't come to church.

It would actually make the the Apostle Paul's qualifications for a deacon totally

reversed but anyway

Now what we were just talking about you were answering Joseph's question on Long Island, by the way,

Joseph you're getting a free copy of Dennis Gunderson's book Your child's profession

of faith as well.

So give us your full mailing address and This is compliments of grace and truth books and also is

being shipped out to you by our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service so we thank both

of them for providing these books today and but you were you were speaking

about the children being used in all kinds of Celebrations and

special events at a church.

Do you think that there's also a danger of Demeaning

what worship is by making it a time for fun and It's you

know viewed as just another game And so on, you know that there's something

very serious.

Although it Worship should involve joy That's without question and there are a lot of us who are

Calvinists who seem to be devoid of it in their worship but at the same time there's a difference

between Joyful adoration of our sovereign God and having fun

during a worship service, isn't it?

Yes.

Yeah for sure.

We joyful.

In a study for two songs that

brought up worship with Fear or

reverence and

something people

to know that many of the

people who

are lost that we know who

are Pursuing fun.

The hardest is precisely because they have no joy and they compensate for a lack of

joy by constantly trying to make

life

fun and

create moments purely

entertaining of its forms.

Because they delight in my men.

We have to go to another break right now.

If you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

That's CH r .i .s A -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com.

Don't go away. We'll be right back with Dennis Gunnarsson as we continue our discussion on your

child's profession of faith.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen.

If you just tuned us in our guest today for the full two hours with one hour to go is

Dennis Gunderson.

And we are talking about his book your child's profession of faith.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

And you may remain anonymous just like one of our listeners did if it

makes you feel more comfortable due to the Private personal and intimate nature of your question.

That's Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Well Dennis, what are the manifestations that a pet that a parent should be looking

for or even a pastor?

When a parent is requesting baptism for a child.

What are the manifestations of faith that they are supposed to be looking for?

No, what he did is with God not what I do.

And that's what I would call a

joy and criminal bait him

as a result of it

because I

trust in him.

I know I owe my life to him and any portion of

my life.

And I want to when I hear those kind of things come from a child

even in the most

immature verbal.

Would you say that?

What you are looking for in many regards is Nearly identical to what

you're looking for an adult, but the younger a child is.

The profession has to have more unusual circumstances surrounding it.

Would you say that it there needs to be something more?

Extraordinary in a young child that would set the child apart from somebody who's just parroting

Phrases or wanting to please his parents?

Yes.

While we go when

children in preteen years and I mentioned that boy Micah.

And it's in his case at one point

during our he said to me that he now had a desire to

Treat his sister better and he said I used to be really rough.

So I asked him I said Do you think.

Then I said my guess it is Is God? Saving you now

you are treating your sister with kindness.

Is that is that why God's pleased with you?

And you could almost see the little gears turning in his brain and the smoke come out of his ears, you know.

And he was he was absorbing that and taking that in and he said not not exactly.

He said I he said I want to treat my sister better because he's a saved me.

He said but that's not why I'm saying is drawing the line.

I'm shooting righteousness and

The difference between Protestant Roman Catholic justification basically several

my my works have proceeded from my faith.

But they are not the reason that I'm converting.

Praise God.

Well, we do have a listener in Perry County, Pennsylvania.

Arnie.

Who says have you heard of Ted Christman's book.

Forbid them not?

Rethinking the baptism and church membership of children and young people.

And if you have how different is his approach?

Than yours if at all.

You know, I read that I read that a number of years ago.

I don't and I had a couple of conversations

about that, but it it has

been very brief.

It's much briefer than my treatment

as well thought out, but I found that our thoughts on it were.

We're very close on a minor.

Well might have advocated in this.

I'm just going from memory now.

He might have advocated that perhaps in some cases much

depth of

the basis for

theological statements

yet.

They had they hadn't been taught enough doctrine yet.

Yes part of why the church exists.

We make disciples of all nations.

Then you baptize them and then the third bit then you teach them to observe all things without a commanded you what that implies.

That implies that when they became disciples and they were baptized.

They didn't know all that.

Yeah, right, and so that's the role of the church to deepen their faith.

So I think

they're probably I believe

that professional agreement.

Yeah, and don't you think that there's a difference between what you would expect from a person who is a

Baptismal candidate as Opposed to a church member.

I mean or somebody joining a church.

Don't you think the two things?

The church being a member of a church might require More thorough

explanation of theology.

And so on because it seems to me that there are people whose baptisms have been

delayed by their pastors and elders and congregations for far too long because

they Even have to go through like a test and all.

I mean a lengthy test written test.

It just seems to me very unbiblical because you have the Jailer that was baptized the very

night that he professed Faith, you know after he

had already had the Apostle Paul chained to a wall that very day.

So.

Moments ago is

my church is when you are

baptized.

Dividing line between The moment of baptism and the moment of being part

of Christ immediately.

And so that is what we've done.

Let me just repeat our email address for those of you who may have tuned in late, it's Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com if you'd like to join us on the air with a

question.

We do have Bibi in Cumberland County,

Pennsylvania.

Who asked.

Have you ever heard that the Puritans although they were paid?

Oh Baptists Did have more restrictions from children's

participation in Acts of worship then is common amongst

evangelicals today even though They baptized their children as infants.

I know I have actually heard that from Don Kistler who does a phenomenal job putting

on a a Conference on the Puritans and even Don as a Presbyterian

thought that Christians Allowed their children to participate in too many things

involving worship.

But what's your thought on that?

This kind of ties in with what we were talking about earlier about.

You know children being paraded around in church and perhaps get be get.

Adding to the deception that they may have that they're really saved and also demeaning the seriousness of worship.

Yes, yeah, probably the other in

which I think that our

restrictions or limitations on participation in the Lord's Supper and I

would

and.

You have a section in the book a chapter on When your child is ready for

baptism, so you could discuss that a little bit.

Yeah, I think it's important

that

to the parents.

But you see that your child is ready for baptism.

Then you need to have a meaning of

baptism is

to

be here.

Well

to

anyone

you

could.

United

Resurrection.

So

prepare

a

testimony

there may

need

to

help

take

reading read of

those

passages.

You have a very important section in your book that provides

Helpful suggested questions for pastoral interviews with with children about baptism if you

could Provide some of those questions.

Yes.

While you're looking it up, I'll announce our email address again, it's Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

That's C H R. I s a R n Z en a gmail .com.

And we do have a couple of listeners patiently waiting to have their questions asked and answered and we'll get

to you as soon as possible.

Yeah, a couple of those that come to mind is should be your

friends or

Chris.

What do you

like most about something like

that, right?

That's very different than

straightforward

great doctrinal.

I don't

want hmm.

I can

clearly

recall.

That kind of Dovetails to what you're talking about.

The woman that led me to Christ.

She was in a church that used to allow Children

to have the Lord's Supper and.

And when she was visiting my congregation the congregation where I was a member we

I was I I told her that we did not do that that you had to be baptized as a

believer and so on before the Lord's Supper was you know permitted to be

given to you and.

And.

So when the when the elements were being passed and the little child who was probably about

eight or so was reaching for them the mother said no you you

can't have those and Later on the child said

why didn't you let me have the bread and juice and The

The mother said to the child well in Chris's Church when you're having

communion You have to really understand what it's all about before you can have that

and the little child said that's Communion my friend Sally had her

first communion and she got a bike.

So he was upset that he wasn't able to have this because he would have gotten a bicycle for it and obviously

This child revealed that this child was not ready to have communion or baptism.

And then on the other side of the coin I Can tell you that I as an adult in my mid

-twenties when I was first under the conviction of the Holy Spirit and believe I

was born again, I still Dressed in a very

worldly way now.

I know that there are people who have differences of opinion on What is the appropriate way for a

Christian to? appear especially at worship service and so on but I used to have Very

long hair and wore motorcycle jackets and wore t -shirts that had my favorite

heavy metal groups insignias on them and all that kind of thing and basically had the

appearance of a tough guy heavy metal

rock fan and so on and I was in a 7 -eleven convenience store and

There was a woman there who was with her little niece who was probably three or four and

Perhaps even younger and The woman said to the little girl.

This is Chris and He's a member of or he goes to my church.

He attends the church that I go to and the little girl said

He doesn't go to church and then the woman said oh, yes He does the little girl said

no, he doesn't he doesn't go to church and the woman was getting a little angry Embarrassed and she said stop

saying that he does go to church.

Why do you say that and the little kid said he doesn't look like he goes to church.

And the Lord actually used the Lord used that child to convict

me To get my hair cut and not that it was like something required of me for

salvation or anything but I said to myself if a little kid is is going to question whether or

not I am a Christian just because of the way I'm looking I'm not gonna hold on to this idol

anymore.

It's not worth it.

So I you know got my haircut and so on.

So I know that there's hope Go ahead.

I'm sorry.

If I'm sending the wrong message, you know, it's incredible that I could be a believer in

Christ.

But if I need to reconsider this that was there was a lot of you to be responsive to that rather than to protest

that.

You know, yeah, and and I know that I probably got some of our brothers who have long hair and

dress exactly the way I described.

Who are probably maybe even pastors who are upset with me now, but I'm just relating to you my story.

Mm -hmm, but.

We are going to go to our final break.

And if anybody would like to join us on the air.

You've only got about a half hour left to send us an email at Chris Arnzen at gmail

.com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

So don't go away.

We're gonna be right back with Dennis Gunderson and more of our discussion on your child's profession of faith.

Hi, I'm Chris Arnzen host of iron sharpens iron radio.

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Calm.

Paul wrote to the church at Galatia for am I now seeking the approval of man or of God?

Where am I trying to please man.

If I were still trying to please man? I would not be a servant of Christ.

Hi, I'm Mark Lukens pastor of Providence Baptist Church.

We are a reformed Baptist Church and we hold to the London Baptist confession of faith of 1689.

We are in Norfolk, Massachusetts.

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Welcome back and I'll tell you somebody else who's delighted to sponsor iron sharpens iron radio.

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Yeah,

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So he's a great brother.

Really is.

Well, we went through some helpful suggested questions for pastoral interviews with children about baptism.

How about common questions parents may ask regarding the baptism of their children?

Yes.

It's a.

Parents are thoughtful.

There should be baptized

and the timing is right and so on.

They're they're

going to ask

are we on baptism.

While they are still both

unconverted that

has not come

now

one

thing

that.

You've demonstrated that you have the the same spirit of our mutual

friend Mac Tomlinson and that you you find truth and those

Men of God that are not normally associated with the Reformed Christians of

yesterday or today.

And you have found some gems from Andrew Murray that help in this area.

Yes.

And we do have a listener From New Jersey

Robert he asks you were speaking about earlier

how it is Can be dangerous to give children a false impression

that they are saved.

I was wondering if you thought that It would be best not to

have children even lead in saying grace and things of that nature.

And my follow -up question is our parents putting

their children in spiritual danger by having in their midst while having

holiday celebrations and other things people who are overtly Against

the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Oh, that's two different questions there, but they're both good.

I think.

Yeah,

if

our

children

are would not

it's

valid

that

we view

in the

head

before

it actually Understand something before we

affectionately one before we can love them.

So there are things that reason that that has

bearing on why I think it's perfectly encouraged

and even if

it's acceptable to God if they're not converted, but it's because you.

Another what I might put it is an unconfirmed person's worship is is not

received by God in the manner in which a believers is

Participating.

And the other part of the question which actually came up in another interview not long

ago.

When we were actually discussing the issue of homosexuality.

The other part of the question that Robert in Wayne, New Jersey asked.

Was my hometown?

That's where I grew up.

Really?

Oh, wow.

He was asking if you should have people who are Openly enemies of the gospel in your

home when your children are present and that kind of a thing.

I guess you can't be.

Isolate them from too much because you know, you're not going to know how to behave at all when they finally are.

You know out in the public.

I mean, you don't have them locked in a cage or something.

But but I guess I guess you I guess you have to use some discernment though and something and so

on.

But what is your opinion?

Yeah, that's right.

There needs to be discretion exercise.

You know, there's a great deal of difference between having Say unconverted people in your home who you are

ministering to.

Your children are going to have some of their best opportunity to observe that the gospel really is.

Impacting right unbelieving unwelcoming world by you choosing to bring unbelievers into your home and even people whose

habits are quite contrary to yours.

A difference between that and They bring the

people in.

Who will I remember one

of my sons when

they went off to a

prayer?

He was only committed at age 16 and then within a year and a half was in

and he said and he said, you know, I find it very natural to minister to

unbelievers into my neighbors here and to the kids at the school who I sense aren't really with it and

He said I'm realizing that this is natural to me because our home was a revolving door of needy people.

He said we had everybody through all kinds of neighbors

and homes and families and people with all races traveling through

and Every kind who didn't know

the Lord as well.

He said that's very

natural I discovered that now that I'm here and making those decisions on my

own It's going to be very difficult, you

know difficult for

children people can be

from

unbelievers.

Yeah,

I you just reminded me of.

Remarkable story that I have to abbreviate obviously, but I have supported over the years

a ministry out in Riverhead Long Island called Timothy Hill Children's Ranch and

Timothy Hill was a young boy who was in some respects

a remarkable child that demonstrated a more vibrant Christian faith than is

typical for a preteen Child and he actually would teach

children younger than he was in Bible studies and all kinds of things.

He was a remarkable kid and he Would witness the love and

compassion that his parents demonstrated towards foster children that were

Frequently invited in and out of the house.

They were his parents were record regularly taking in foster children until they moved on to

permanent homes and so on and Timothy started to

wander around the town where they lived and Getting prices for property

because He was actually and he was.

His parents Jerry and Fern Hill were getting phone calls from real estate agents saying you know that your son your

12 year old son is is is pricing a property because he wants to build a ranch

for homeless children and This this boy said that since

he he liked Riding a horse which he actually bought with his own paper route money and he

loves to be around farm animals he had an envisioned a place on a ranch a

working ranch where homeless children could find refuge and That young boy

Timothy Hill was killed in an accident a tragic accident.

He was hit by a truck while riding his bicycle to school and his parents

Very quickly after Timothy's death said we have to make Timothy's vision come

true and they started the Timothy Hill Children's Ranch in tribute to their son and it's been

in operation for over 30 years, I believe and the Website just for our listeners to know

is Timothy Hill org Timothy Hill org.

I highly recommend the Timothy Hill Children's Ranch, but it you reminded me of it when you were saying that

The impression the wonderful impression of the gospel being Demonstrated

in the love and compassion of Christ being demonstrated to others can be seen

and Imitated by children who witnessed their parents inviting all sorts of people into their home and and

showing their love and compassion.

We do have Tyler and mastic Beach Long Island, that's not far from Riverhead where I was just talking

about Tyler says should a Christian parent take their child through the book of

1st John to encourage Reflection on true conversion and saving faith

faith.

No Tyler.

You should never do that.

A very sensible and useful thing to do.

In fact, you know some of the points that are made in 1st John indicate the right up the alley of Answering the

question that we look for.

Well, you know, it's people of God now there's

people if you

want to obey

him and that's John

and the nature

of how he writes and.

Very very worthwhile.

I think one of the benefits of

and you can avoid.

Are you

really saved?

Well, let's see, you know, it's read first John and find out if you are.

A.

Context to it and each of those points that speak of evidence is a spiritual life are

Becoming a context of a great deal of what

he did and accomplished to read

it all and don't just look for those.

You say that we are

his don't those points?

Yes now since Baptists and baptistic

Evangelicals do not believe in baptismal regeneration.

They do not believe that baptism is required for salvation.

Is there any harm that is done?

By delaying.

Baptism till the child is older.

I think

we are

waiting on baptism.

I may in fact

someday about

someone who led me to

believe

tight way where it's simply impossible for us there

and when we do that We're always in danger of just making.

It's not a

matter of

discern where this

one and their comprehension of it.

Yeah, the those who believe in pedo baptism.

Sometimes not all of them and I want a broad brush, but some of them

Misrepresent the Baptist view because they will say we believe in adult baptism and

as if The majority of Baptists will never baptize a

child You know under any circumstances, but that is not that is not the position that you hold to now.

There may be Baptist churches that do do that.

And then I know that there are cults like I remember Herbert W Armstrong would not baptize

anyone until they were in their 20s or some strange level of age.

Which makes me scratch my head because it was very prevalent in Years gone by for

people to be married when they were teenagers.

So, I don't know where he got the 21 or 23 year old perhaps even older than that he

had some age that he Insisted upon but but there is a a

difference between Adult only baptism and believer only baptism.

Mm -hmm.

I think that in fact, you know to go back to Ted.

Yeah, Ted Christman's book.

Mm -hmm.

I do think.

I do think there were elements in a small minority of Reformed

Baptist.

I've decided on adult only baptism.

I committed there in

their bylaws.

To baptizing only those that worry.

I have not.

I have not heard of a church of that sort.

Well, I really want to make sure that you Say what you

most want to have etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners Before they leave this

program today.

To make sure that that is spoken and if when you're finished we have time for any More

listener questions will take them, but I just wanted to make sure that the time didn't slip away from us without you

Giving the the primary things that you want my listeners to remember today.

Hmm.

Yeah, thank you for that.

Well, you know, we haven't touched on this explicitly in this way.

Now

involved in discipling I tell

those

families,

you know.

All you need to do is and you will find it you get in

the habit of doing that.

There will be things there'll be comments that will naturally come to mind, you know.

You may not be capable of commenting on the whole passage.

But you will edify your family if you merely grasp something out of it and say, you know.

Look at that action this point, you

know, I have not seen but it doesn't always have

to be a challenge.

You know, not

every not every

passage of script you

will find.

The scriptures the Spirit of

God will

contact

stick take children.

Amen and I would like you now to wet the appetites of our listeners for another interview that I would like to

do with you.

On courtship and dating.

So what's the difference?

Another book that you have written.

Yes.

Actually, actually we haven't yet and I was going to have you hold.

Okay, I was gonna have you hold on after we get off the air so I can schedule you on the calendar

here.

There's a lot

of

The

practice

of going

off on

this pattern

away from

adultery marriage

generations

some

other

cultures

to the

ship

tradition.

Amen.

Well mark your calendars.

Well, actually we can't tell you to mark your calendars yet because we don't know the date but we'll find out after the program

is over.

When.

Our.

Conversation on Courtship and dating.

So what's the difference will be taking place and I'll announce that At some point later this week

so you can mark your calendars then for that because I think it's a very

Controversial issue it's a issue that people disagree on strongly, but it's a very important issue and

I think that it will be a greatly edifying to all of one of the listeners of iron sharpens iron.

And I think it actually has a lot in common with what we were even discussing

Today about a child's profession of faith is also the discernment used in a

child's mind on when they should even begin And entertaining

the idea of Envisioning a future romantic involvement with somebody of the opposite sex and

so on.

So this is a very important issue obviously, especially in a day and age

when Women are becoming pregnant

in skyrocketing numbers out of wedlock and young men are

totally showing a lack of concern or Responsibility for these

pregnancies and it's just it's just a tragedy to see how this even has led

to Widespread crime and all kinds of things with children being raised in

Atmospheres like that, but we think we thank you so much Dennis Gunderson for being in the

program.

I want to repeat your website It's grace and truth books calm very easy to remember

grace and truth books calm.

We look forward to you coming back in the program brother.

Yes, thanks.

It's been a real joy and appreciate the questions that I've got.

Some thoughtful listeners evidently.

Yeah.

And I want everybody listening to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior

Than you are a sinner.

God bless.