Episode 129: Classic Cast Part 2 - All of Grace

To the Ruled Church Podcast.

This is my beloved son, with whom I am well pleased. He is honored, and I get the glory. And by the way, it's even better, because you see that building in Perryville, Arkansas? You see that one in Pechote, Mexico?

Do you see that one in Tuxla, Guterres, down there in Chiapas? That building has my son's name on it.

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You can't be Christian without a local church.

You can't do anything better than to bend your knee and bow your heart, turn from your sin and repentance, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and join up with a good Bible-believing church, and spend your life serving Jesus in a local, visible congregation.

Re-airing the Classic Cast Conversation on All of Grace

Welcome to the Ruled Church Podcast. I am your host, Allen Nelson. I'm one of the pastors at Providence Baptist Church in Perryville, Arkansas. You can find more about us at ProvidenceBaptistAR .com. ProvidenceBaptistAR .com.

What we're doing today is re-airing an episode from October 2022 that I had a conversation on the podcast called Classic Cast with my friends Cole Dixon and Danny Thursby. Now, Danny's been on this podcast before, but you'll have to go.

I'm not sure if by the time this comes out, it might've been a couple weeks ago when part one was released, but we're gonna continue our conversation now on All of Grace by Charles Spurgeon. And so we'll just jump in where we left off last time.

I hope you find it edifying and helpful to your local church. To God be the glory. While we are on this earth, it is our desire to see people liberated from their bondage to sin.

The Gospel as the Ministry of Reconciliation

Yeah, that's not the task that the Lord has given his church for this time. We're not to judge the nations now. Today is the day of salvation. We've been given the ministry of reconciliation as Christ is reconciled.

That's a good word, amen.

Yeah.

And in this case, it's good to go the step further. We don't, like you mentioned earlier, we don't just kind of throw it out there and be vague and ambiguous, but we get specific. Since his only and sole object is your good.

When we're out on the street corner, we're preaching specifically your good. Since his sole and only object is your good, incline your ear and come to him. We're not only specific about preaching the law, what will happen to you if you don't repent from your law breaking, but what will happen to you if you respond to the gospel that is presented to you of the Christ who was sent for you, the world.

He goes that step further, mentioning it may be the hour and come in which you shall enter upon that new life which is the beginning of heaven. And then chapter three, he starts to get into what Danny mentioned earlier, the theme of the first six chapters of the book, which we have the first five chapters which he talks about justification and the justification of the ungodly.

Then maybe we can save some time specifically for chapter six, which is a little bit different subject than what we're talking about now, but it's really kind of the implication of what we're talking about now, deliverance from sin.

What does he mean and how does he describe the God who justifies the ungodly? How is it that God justifies and what does this ungodliness look like?

What I love about this is that, I learned this from Spurgeon. Well, one, it's biblical, so really I learned it from the Bible, but Spurgeon's executing kind of this tactic, if you will, put very well in here.

Recently, I was in a counseling situation and this is fairly common and this person's not a believer and they're just recalling the guilt of so many things in their life and some of it was by any standard pretty wicked sin and they're regretful about it.

You see a sense of at least some worldly sorrow and they're just like, I think I've just sinned too much. I think I've just sinned too much and then for the Christian, the best thing, I just love that opportunity.

It's like somebody clearing out the field for you to throw a touchdown pass is because, oh, well, the good news about that is that that's the pre-qualification. That's the pre-qualification. The good news is that that's exactly who Christ died for is those who have sinned so much.

That's the pre-qualification here. And so, just in this book, I like his form in writing here because at the end of, it's like at the end of the paragraphs, you could just read the last sentence of the paragraphs and it's like he makes a case and Spurgeon can't do anything without preaching so even he's sitting here writing but it sounds like a sermon.

This, to my knowledge, did not come from a sermon. He actually wrote this, which is unique because so many things, I think MacArthur learned from him and all of MacArthur's books are just sermons that have been repackaged but Spurgeon actually wrote this one.

If you just read the last lines of the paragraphs in this chapter at least, you get what he's after. To justify the ungodly, this is a miracle worthy of God and it is. If you, dear friend, feel that you are spiritually sick, the physician has come into the world for you.

Forgiveness must be for the sinful. It is observed to talk of forgiving those who do not need forgiveness, pardoning those who have never offended. He goes on to say, this is true, the law is for the self-righteous to humble their pride.

The gospel is for the lost to remove their despair. The sinner is the gospel's reason for existence. O says he, whoa, wait a second. That is all he is when the gospel comes to justify him. He's talking about, well, I'm not gonna read that.

He can abundantly pardon. Jesus Christ came into the world to save sinners. Forgiveness is for the guilty. God justifies the ungodly and that takes you up where you are now. It meets you in your worst estate.

I mean, just nailing it home at the end of each paragraph.

You can't miss his point.

No.

You can't.

I don't know.

And when he talks about ungodly, I just wanna throw in there, he addresses the religious hypocrisy as a hypocrite too. In fact, let me see here. I'll find it real quick. He says, possibly you are a person of another sort.

You have regularly attended to all the outward forms of religion and yet you have had no heart in them at all but have been really ungodly. Though meeting with the people of God, you've never met with God for yourself.

You have been in the choir and yet have not praised the Lord with your heart. You have lived without any love to God in your heart or regard to his commands in your life. Well, you are just the kind of man to whom this gospel is sent.

This gospel which says that God justifies the ungodly. It is very wonderful but it is happily available for you.

Amen.

Yeah.

He goes on that point. He says, now observe further that it must be so that the salvation of God is for those who do not deserve it and have no preparation for it. It is reasonable that the statement should be put in the Bible for dear friend, no others need justifying but those who have no justification of their own.

If any of my readers are perfectly righteous, they want no justifying. You feel that you are doing your duty well and almost putting heaven under an obligation to you. What do you want with a savior or with mercy?

What do you want with justification? You will be tired of my book by this time for it will have no interest to you. Man. It's just, oh, he's just so, I mean, he's just got a way with words, man. He's good.

And listen to this and I'll put a corrective and encouragement to us in the reform camp but for you guys, cause I'm gonna read in a different version but this is the last paragraph basically right before chapter four.

But he says, in my book, it's a long paragraph. It says, come in your present state. I mean, come to your heavenly father in all your sin and sinfulness. Come to Jesus just as you are. Leprous, filthy, naked, neither fit to live nor fit to die.

Come, you that are the heavy sweepings of creation. Come, though you hardly dare to hope for anything but death. Come, though despair is brooding over you, pressing upon your bosom like a horrible nightmare.

Come and ask the Lord to justify another ungodly one. Why should he not? Come along with you for this great mercy of God is meant for such as you are. I put it in the language of the text and I cannot put it more strongly.

The Lord God himself takes to himself this gracious title, him that justifies the ungodly. He makes just and causes to be treated as just. Those who by nature are ungodly. Is not that a wonderful word for you?

Reader, do not rise from your seat till you have well considered this matter.

So we see.

Preach, man, that's preaching. That is preaching.

In such short amount of time, he's doing a really good job of calling all to believe in a way. Even telling the self-righteous to turn away from their own righteousness and calling the ungodly to turn away from their ungodliness.

All for the purpose of getting them to turn to the God who justifies. You know, he tells, as y 'all mentioned, on one hand he tells the self-righteous this. The next paragraph after what you read, Danny, said, if I called you, you would not come and therefore I will not call you under that character.

No, I bid you rather look at that righteousness of yours till you see what a delusion it is. It is not half so substantial as a cobweb. Have done with it. Flee from it. And then on the other hand, he's telling the ungodly, don't wait for personal reformation.

He says, even so the gospel will receive you into its halls if you come as a sinner, not otherwise. Wait not for reformation, but come at once for salvation. God justifies the ungodly and that takes you up where you now are.

It meets you in your worst estate. So on one hand he tells the self-righteous to turn away from their righteousness and he tells, on the other hand, the ungodly to not wait for personal reformation. Because in truth, the self-righteous and the ungodly are in the same state, in their sin and need of salvation.

And they both have the same solution. Turning away from their own state, whether it be just pure ungodliness or as what Henry Schugel calls carnal religion, and to look to the God who justifies.

Election, Evangelism, and Not Hiding Calvinism

Now on the other side, I want to say this. Because we've kind of pushed around our camp a little bit, but I want to say this, he never leaves his Calvinism. You can't. You know, you can't be a faithful evangelist and leave your Calvinism.

So he says this, this is in chapter four, but he says, he says, he in the splendor of his electing grace, having chosen some of them before the foundation of the world, will not rest till he has justified them and made them to be accepted in the beloved.

Now some people, even on both sides, some people are like, this blows their minds. How can you say that God has chosen some people to give his efficacious grace to, and yet you're going to be so, and yet you're telling people, come, come, come.

We don't, these truths are not intention. They're together. And so Spurgeon, you know, this is why those not in the reform camp don't like to press Spurgeon too much because they know he goes and talks about, you know, God doesn't justify everybody.

God, before the foundation of the world, has elected his people. And so Spurgeon never leaves that, but he does. And one of the, you know, besides the Apostle Paul or something, you know, Spurgeon is like one of the clearest examples in history of how one should hold the doctrines of grace rightly and evangelism rightly all together.

You know, he doesn't leave one.

Premier example from church history, yeah.

Doesn't leave one for the other.

Yeah, it's his basis for sure.

Yeah, so, well, I just want to make clear, you know, so you're not reading this book and be like, oh, Spurgeon in this book, he's hiding his Calvinism. He's hiding his, he's like, he's trying to do a bait and switch here.

You know, which, which, which let's be real. So many pastors do.

They try to shift gears, try to hide their Calvinism.

Let's be real, yeah. There's a lot of closet Calvinist pastors.

In this area.

They, and I'm not saying that, oh, there's pastors that are trying to be wise. I'm not talking about those men. I'm not talking about those brothers who aren't showing up to their churches, kicking their front doors in with the doctrines of grace.

They're trying to feed their people instead of just throwing it all out there. You know, they're trying to start with the milk,.

You know, kill them. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I'm not talking about those, those brothers. I'm talking about, I'm talking about pastors who actually do intentionally hide or, or, you know, they'll never come out with, you know, with what they believe.

And.

Cause they don't want to, they're trying to make everyone happy.

Exactly.

And it's not just with Calvinism. Those guys are mostly the ones like, if you ask them, you know, well, you know, well, well, what about a woman? Can she preach? Instead of answering that question, they'll answer it in a different way.

Like, oh, a woman can do all these things. You know, like they're not.

Right, right, right, right, right.

Let's answer the question.

Yeah, it's like, and by the way, no. But the, but the, the idea is you just going to try to split down the middle and you don't want to ruffle feathers.

Yeah, you don't want to be, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so you'll, or you'll be inconsistent and you'll, you'll, well, I've got a friend, I don't know if he's still like this, but I'm not going to, I'm not going to mention his name, but several years ago he said, well, when it comes to preaching, I studied John MacArthur, but when it comes to evangelism and church growth, I study Andy Stanley.

I'm just like, I'm just like, dude, I was like, dude, one of these things is not like the other. And so that, that's.

What it tells me is you're a pragmatist, even in your preaching.

Even, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That, that's exact, that's exactly right. Or what I was trying to critique about the, what I call the closet Calvinists is like, they're going to keep, they're going to keep that under, under a, you know, under a covering.

They're going to keep that under a covering, knowing that, well, if I actually, if I actually come out with that, I'm going to, I'm going to offend people.

Yeah, and offend people, but you dig even deeper and it's for a paycheck, for things like, I believe these things, I just don't want to lose my job over this.

Or, or they, yeah, or they know that, it's like, well, I want non-Calvinists and Calvinists alike to come to this church. And so therefore I'm going to keep it under a covering. It's like.

Which is not true either, because we have non-Calvinists that go to our church and you know.

I'm not saying we're the standard, I'm just saying, look, you don't have to.

The best.

You can preach like this and be a Calvinist, you don't have to hide it.

The best thing that I've learned is, yeah, that's the best thing I've learned. I've not, I've tried, I have been in the camp of trying to be wise, but I'm not trying to hurt, hide Calvinism, whatever.

And the best thing I learned is you just got to be, you just got to be who you are.

Yeah, that's exactly right.

And by the way, what I'm saying is, that ought to be biblical, right? I'm not just saying like anybody, just be who you are. What I'm saying is you ought to be biblical and then you ought to just be who you, again, this is connected to the book because that's what we're talking about.

Like Spurge is just, he's just real. He's like, yeah, God chose some. Yeah, also, please come to Christ, you know? And he just holds it all out there together and we've got to be transparent, you know?

And if you think I'm saying, well, just be transparent about your Calvinism and you're not gonna have any problems, no. There'll be problems. You know, we had a, not long ago in our church, we had a women's Bible study and there was a, someone was like, you know, I'm just really loving and understanding Calvinism more and stuff and we had some people that was like, you know what, what?

You know, like, and then trying to explain it and stuff and some questions and you're like, well, and then I have to get involved and explain things but there's some tensions, you know, like as people are coming into this, understanding this, you're like, look, I can't resolve all the tensions in your brain.

But I can't, but I just can tell you that both are true. And that is God has chosen a people for himself out of the mass of fallen humanity before time began, before the foundation of the world, only those are going to be saved.

And yet we publish this good news to the nations and we plead with all to come to Christ. And anybody who doesn't come to Christ, well, it's only because they've rejected God, you know? Yes, God could show them his grace, okay?

But when you start talking, even the title of this book, when you start talking about, well, God, everybody deserves grace. You're like, wait, what? That's not grace.

That's not what grace is.

That's not grace. So God in his abundant grace has chosen some and yet this fuels our evangelism rather than pour cold water on it.

Election Fuels Evangelism

I like that you

I know. Go ahead.

That you said it fuels it because election is such a, the doctrine of election is such a grace even to the evangelist. Because you don't

Absolutely.

You don't sit there and go out and evangelize somebody and then walk away and go, oh man, I didn't word this exactly right. No, man, maybe I wasn't good enough to, because it's not you. It's not the, because honestly, we don't preach the gospel perfectly when we go evangelizing.

So you can take that burden off of yourself and trust that God will work through an imperfect evangelist.

Yeah.

On that note, I know we need to make progress, but I think that's something that is distinct about our day that, you know, I could be wrong, but I think there's something distinct about our day than in Spurgeon's day.

Like Spurgeon can write this and people are gonna buy it and people are gonna read it. The problem with like Spurgeon opening up and saying, oh, you're ungodly, good. Good, that's pre-qualifications.

That's exactly who the Lord saves. That's exactly who the Lord justifies because the ungodly is who is in need of justification. That message is received so differently today that it's, and I'm sure, you know, this is nothing new.

People, you know, people are prideful and people are self-righteous, but I think in our day it's more prominent that you can't even get the words out of your mouth saying, you're ungodly. You don't even have time to say good.

That's exactly who Christ died for because it's so defensive on the fact that it's like people aren't willing to recognize that they're sinners anymore.

But even more than that, listen to this.

So there's no tenderness. There's no tenderness of, oh, you're ungodly, but there's even a worldly, maybe there's just a worldly sorrow of it and a distinction between a godly sorrow and 1 Corinthians 7.

In our day, there's not even a worldly sorrow over sin.

Yeah, just a pain.

So you can't even say that it's so hard to communicate that your ungodliness in a way is good news because you are who Christ has died for.

And to paint, add more color to that picture, not to add anything else other than you have Christians trying to present the gospel in such a way as to show the sinner that they're not ungodly. Like all of a sudden, the gospel is, you know, you're worthy, this, that, and the other.

You're not that. You're just broken, you're sick,.

But you're not ungodly. Kind of like, kind of like the girlfriend who just got broken up with, all her friends, they're just like, no, you're so beautiful. You know, he doesn't deserve you, blah, blah, blah.

I found that illustration offensive, but. Listen to this, though. This is what I was thinking. When you hear that, think about this word. Think about words. Think about Spurgeon's Day. Think about worldviews.

Think about all this. And then you think about our day. What does the word ungodly imply to our world today? Well, if you tell someone they're ungodly, you are starting the conversation by saying, there is a God.

Right, right, that's true. And so when Spurgeon writes the word ungodly, you know, they're not, well, of course, they're secret atheists, you know, but at least standard society, you know, you accept that.

Okay, yeah, there's God. Today, today it's like you almost have to work even, you know, you say you're ungodly. It's not only are people pushing back against, I'm not ungodly, I'm fine. No, they're pushing back like, there's not a God.

There's not even a God.

There's not even a God, and I'm God. You know, they're openly, whereas people have always believed that from Genesis three onwards, like, you can be like God.

Right.

So people thought that they were God.

It's nothing new.

Yeah, it's nothing new, but the difference is in our society, it's okay now to be open about it.

Yeah.

I'm not, yeah, I'm not, I'm not. In fact, you could imagine people saying this even, I'm godly.

Right.

Because I'm God.

Right.

You know, and so it's a different day.

Step further, step number two, there is a God that you're living against.

Yeah.

You're ungodly, because if they do believe in a God, he is by default on their side.

Right, you're right.

As they view it. You're ungodly, meaning there is a God who you're living in rebellion to.

Yeah, how many times have you heard, well, only God can judge? And that's saying that God's not judging me,.

Is what they're saying. Right, right, right, right.

I'm meeting God's standard. God's standard's good enough for me. You know, you may judge me, but in a sense, if they say only God can judge me, well, they're not scared of God's judgment,.

Or they don't love God's judgment.

And God may not like my sin, but he loves me, because he loves the sinner, and he hates the sin.

You're starting to get into something you're saying.

Stepping on toes, man.

There's a guy.

I'm going to have to stop you there, brother.

There's a guy in our church.

Stepping on toes.

There's a guy in our church. He teaches the youth. And he's been known to tell young people that God hates them. I'm not going to say any names. I won't say any names.

Good thing the camera can't see you. Hey, guys, I do.

You can't be visually identified.

I like to, let's protect his identification.

He's like on here with a black face, deep voice.

Yeah, we have to blur his face and distort his voice.

Yeah.

What I like about these books, I like when the authors get into their own personal life, because it brings out history. I'm starting to like history more and more.

Don't let me derail you, but on that note, I just want to point out that Spurgeon is ministering in the seabeds of the worldview that has led us to where we are today.

Yeah, that's a good point.

So Darwin, Marx, right about this time, also Freud, they're tilling the garden that will become what's in the water today, what's in the cultural thought and water today. Spurgeon's on the front end, we're on the back end.

We're seeing the fruits of that garden.

Spurgeon's Conversion and the Call to Look to Christ

So on page 17, he says this. So after talking about ungodliness, we see this in our practice, where we let the sinner that we're preaching to know, look, we were also too considered ungodly. There's nothing that we did to save ourselves kind of thing.

He starts to do that on page 17 at the very bottom when he says, I was myself stricken down with a horrible sense of guilt, which made my life a misery to me. But when I heard the command, turn to me and be saved all the ends of the earth, for I am God and there is no other, Isaiah 45, 22.

I looked and in a moment, the Lord justified me. Now Tom Nettles records this moment in considerable depth in his biography on Spurgeon called Living by Revealed Truth. He says this about Spurgeon's conversion.

It happened on January 6th, 1850. School had dismissed early because of an outbreak of fever. Spurgeon's spiritual struggles were not left at Newmarket, but clung to him as he made his journey home to Colchester.

Unable to go with his father to his church in Tullisbury because of the snow, Spurgeon made his way to a primitive Methodist chapel on Artillery Street. According to his recollection, the minister that day did not appear.

And so an unlearned Methodist exhorter rose to give a brief message on Isaiah 45, 22, which says, look unto me and be saved from all the ends of the earth. For I am God and there is no one else. The man recognized that a heavy-hearted visitor was among their small number and he expostulated with Spurgeon directly to look to Christ.

He asked Spurgeon to obey this text. Christ has bled and died, risen from the dead and ascended to heaven. He alone can save. It is not a matter of lifting a finger or a foot or going to college or being rich.

Look, look, look, the man said. Look to Christ and live. Spurgeon looked and saw at once the way of salvation. One page later, Nettles records Spurgeon giving remarks on this moment. Look, look, look.

Why I, Spurgeon, thought I had a great deal to do, but I found it was only to look. I thought I had a garment to spin out for myself, but I found that if I looked, Christ would give me a garment. That's exactly what we're talking about in these chapters.

It's not do, do, do, or work, work, work, but it is simply look to Christ for salvation because it is God who justifies the ungodly. And in that record of Spurgeon's biography, he does away with all self-righteousness.

Can't clothe yourself with a garment. And he does also away with the issue of ungodliness getting in the way of our salvation because he admitted, hey, I was ungodly too. And I found this salvation in God himself who commanded me, look to Christ.

Amen.

He says.

It's look, really, it's looking on, it's not doing, it's looking on what Christ has done.

Right. Though you are steeped up to your throat in crime, he says. He can give with a word, remove the defilement and say, I will now be clean. The Lord is a great forgiver. He mentions in several cases, I mean, with the time that we have left, he's talking about this justification.

He's talking about the gospel and he's not being superficial with it. Like on page 21, he gives a good illustration of the gospel. He gives a good definition of a gospel. He gives the biblical theology of the gospel.

He gives a doctrine of the atonement. He talks about how God's system is the perfect system.

Even limited atonement, real quick. The son of God, co-equal and co-eternal with the father had of old been made the covenant head of a chosen people that he might, in that capacity, suffer for them and save them.

In other words, I push back again, like we're trying to rescue from both ditches, as it were. For those who are the Arminian who think, well, you can't really be evangelistic unless you're an Arminian.

It's like, no, no, no, listen to this, brother. He's right. He has the theology of the scriptures right and he holds a high view of election and the doctrines of grace. And yet, from the other side, he's evangelistic.

These two things go together. I mean, again, I push them together. You're not really evangelistic unless you're Calvinist and you're not really a Calvinist unless you're evangelistic. Man, they go together.

Dude, let me read this paragraph because it gives the biblical, in a short sense, biblical theology of the gospel. Starts with Adam, page 21. The fall by Adam left a loophole of escape. Another Adam can undo the ruin made by the first.

When I was anxious about the possibility of a just God pardoning me, I understood and saw by faith he who is the son of God became man and in his own blessed person bore my sin in his body on the tree.

I saw the chastisement of my peace was laid on him and that with his stripes I was healed. Dear friend, have you ever seen that? Have you ever understood how God can be just to the full, not remitting penalty nor blunting the edge of the sword and yet can be infinitely merciful and can justify the ungodly who turn to him?

It was because the son of God, supremely glorious in his matchless person, undertook to vindicate the law by bearing the sentence due to me that therefore God is able to pass by my sin. The law of God was more vindicated by the death of Christ than it would have been had all transgressors been sent to hell.

For the son of God to suffer for sin was a more glorious establishment of the government of God than for the whole race to suffer. So that answers the question of the chapter, how God can be just and the justifier of the ungodly.

Come on, man, does that not pump you up? And we see this intertwining. We're not gonna get away from it. This intertwining of doctrine and call, of true doctrine of the gospel and the call to believe the gospel.

For Spurgeon, the doctrine of the gospel inevitably led to the call for sinners to believe the gospel.

Amen, that's right. It's like time and time again, just repeating, repeating, repeating, but it wasn't that he was evangelistic in spite of his Calvinism. It was that his understanding of the doctrines of grace fueled, as the word we used earlier, fueled his evangelism.

And then he talks about, not to push us along too far, but I love chapter six.

Regeneration and Deliverance from Sin

I was about to, yeah.

And regeneration.

So let me say this. Let me say this, because it's gonna be a lot past a year. So I'm gonna be the imaginary person asking you these questions again, going back to our intro. So Quatro, you wrote this book on regeneration.

Danny and us, we're all talking about this grace. That means then I can believe this, and then I'm set, I can do what I want, correct? I can continue to live in my sin, right?

Let me tell you a story about a sow and a cat.

That's the illustration Spurgeon uses.

He says he brought it, but he says a cat, I'm gonna see if I can summarize it, but basically a cat cleans itself. You see a cat, stays clean and all those things. You say, well, you can clean a sow. You can, a pig, for those not from Arkansas.

You can clean any.

For those city folk.