The Jerry Vines Sermon Template of The Straw Man

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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

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Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed

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Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation if you'd like to talk with dr.

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White call now It's 602 9 7 3 4 6 0 2 or toll -free across the

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United States. It's 1 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 And now with today's topic here is

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James white And good afternoon. Welcome to the dividing line on a

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Thursday afternoon Right before we head off into the cold weather some of you are experiencing snow and icy conditions,

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I'm Disappointed that I imagine a few folks that we're going to make a Longer trek to visit with us in st.

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Louis are not going to be able to do so I understand there's there's ice and all sorts of icky stuff and so I You know not in control of those things, but still looking forward to meeting with those

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Who will be able to make it those in the local area anyways, and if you are traveling from a bit of a distance?

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I I hope you will be very very careful. We will be at the Covenant of Grace Church in st. Charles I have a link on the blog right now.

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If you want to directions in that area, we'll be talking about sola scriptura the sufficiency of scripture and In five years there at Covenant of Grace, I guess we haven't covered that We've done new perspectives.

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We've done the Trinity I think we've done the five points of Calvinism at some point somewhere along the lines and Now we're going to do the sufficiency of scripture and So looking forward to that opportunity

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Looking forward to tomorrow night experiencing at some point 13 degree temperature

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That will remind me of some of the joys of living here in Phoenix, Arizona where last night

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I saw 34 degrees in my front yard last night. Well, I didn't really see it

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I saw the you know, the thermometer that said 34 degrees, but and that's that's pretty cool for us

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I think the record I think the record is 18 actually many many many moons ago I don't know that it could get that cold in Phoenix anymore with all the pavement everything else we have in the way, but Still for us.

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I don't remember that cold last year. I really don't I don't think it got that cool

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It was it was a real rarity to even get down to like 39 or anything like that last year. So That was that was unusual and that means this is quite the storm no no two ways about it

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It's a it's a cold one. So I just wish That it would be like this around December 25th that that would be nice last night the winds and stuff like that I remember a

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Christmas Eve a number of years ago where I actually saw Snowflakes in my

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In my headlights driving on Christmas Eve, I don't know sometimes I was married. So it's sometime been the past quarter century

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I Would say probably within the past 15 years. I actually saw snowflakes once But what can

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I say? That's we live in Phoenix and that's that's that's how things are now

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Just want to Set the scene to go back to dr. Vines sermon at First Baptist Church Woodstock also known as the anti Geneva Southern Baptist capital of the world where for some reason the pastor brings everybody else in to speak against Calvinism, which is just really odd to me, but That's what's that's what's going on.

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I want to make sure that That we we give dr.

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Vines sermon the best context we can and I figure the best way To make dr.

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Vines sermon sound really good is to remind us of the worst Anti -calvinistic illustration

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I nominate this I don't know. I don't know who gets to decide these things, but I nominate the following as the worst anti -calvinist illustration that I have yet to hear and It has been immemorialized

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By angel now on his his blog Where the arguments on the bus go round and round and round and round, yes indeed the worst

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Anti -calvinism sermon illustration ever here from Nelson Price it's a

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Bus stop. Yeah, it's called the late great planet Earth and here comes a bus it's the eternal bus line

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Right on the front of the bus you see the sign that is there heaven bow Bus pulls up door opens people standing all around.

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Who is the driver? God himself God says all entitled get on get on.

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Come on, please. Please put not you stand over here, please Come on, you do you were you with the children? Wait over?

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I don't care if you say you profess Jesus as your Savior. I didn't choose you and you stand over there

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I know you serve me as a missionary in a foreign country for all your life, but I didn't choose you those

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I've chosen come on board. Well, how about us? We want to get on board to catch the next bus door closes next bus

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Captured right over the front of the bus the hell -bound bus Is that God Is that the

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God of the New Testament? Yes, indeed there it is folks that that outrageously inaccurate false dishonest representation misrepresentation a straw man of hideous proportions

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There is no one staying outside a bus Who has believed in Jesus who will not find him to be a perfect Savior because the only reason they believed in Jesus was why?

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because they were Recipients of divine grace you have a microphone in front of your mouth. Yes You know, it struck me last time you played this

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How many Mormons are going to be standing at this bus of his? How many Jehovah's Witnesses will be standing at this bus of his has he no delineation is we just mouth

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Jesus and it's a mantra And you're supposed to get on the bus and it's like wait a minute

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I bet if he dug a little further and we just pushed just a little bit He'd have a few people in line going

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Lord Lord Um You know and it's no you're over over here and I say no place that and I don't think that that was his intention

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With the illustration now, this is the problem with bad illustration The the point he was trying to make it really comes out in the center and that is where he says what but I believe

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I don't care if you believe in Jesus I didn't select you as if anyone could truly believe in Jesus without having been the recipients of divine grace in the first place and of course, there's a

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There's a almost Utterly Pelagian idea here where you can have individuals who who want to go to heaven, but they're not regenerate seemingly

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You have the this is this is as bad. It's worse actually much worse But it's very similar in that essence to Norman Geisler's illustration that he had in chosen but free that I responded to and that is the the the boys who jump into the farmers pond and They begin to drown and the and the farmer goes out and he only rescues one of the three and while he could have rescued the other two he chooses not to and as I Pointed out in the

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Potter's freedom if you wanted to be biblical You would have to completely change the the parameters of all of these illustrations to where man's rebellion hatred of God Activity and repressing the truth of God all these things are brought in but they won't do that because that wouldn't preach very well so I do wonder at times exactly how orthodox these folks are on fundamental doctrines such as Original sin and and the depravity of man and things like that But it sounds sounds real good.

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And so with that as the backdrop With that really really really bad

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Illustration as the backdrop and I haven't heard back from From the good doctor,

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I wrote to him and you saw my note on my blog. I asked him to please Recognize that's that's just simply dishonest.

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It's it's not a not a proper representation of the issues, but you know But we continue on then and this certainly makes

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I believe dr. Vines sermon sound much better When you have a contrast like that we continue on with the dr.

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Vines discussions of Calvinism from first Baptist Woodstock. This is back in October of This year now that seemed to make it very clear

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That you believe and you are born again You see to just to teach that because we are spiritually dead

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We have to be regenerated before we can believe I think pushes the Bible analogy too far

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A dead man can't repent. Well a dead man can't sin either And of course that would be erroneous why?

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well because as the Apostle Paul said in Romans chapter 8 those who are in the flesh cannot do what is

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Pleasing to God we know that those who are in the flesh can do what is pleasing to the flesh We know that those who are in the flesh

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Enjoy their their their sin and they they hate God's law in God's truth

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But is the incapacity to do good not the incapacity to do evil that is in view here and here you just heard dr.

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Vines former president of the Southern Baptist Convention confuse inability to do what is right and holiness right and holy before God with inability to do what is evil or Reprehensible in God's sight now.

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How can that be a slave does what is a slave's nature? It is not the slaves nature to do what is good can can the leopard changes his spots as as Is asked in Scripture?

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I mean, this is really basic level Categorical errors and yet a category category errors being made

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By someone in in a high position or who was anyways in a high position of authority

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It also raises some questions concerning the character of God This is where I wonder if we aren't about to run into another portion of the

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Dave Hunt Outline sermon outline as it's passed around amongst people who have been asked for the to do the

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Enviable thing of attacking Calvinism from the pulpit because it's God listen in Acts chapter 17 verse 30

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It says God commands all men all men everywhere to repent, but yeah, that's that's exactly right and of course in the for liberty dot mp3

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File that is making the rounds. Thankfully we emphasized this exact thing and it is emphasized in in every

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Reformed work that I know of and if dr. Vines would take the time to to read any of these

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Southern Baptists who have gone before him who wrote the abstracts and Wrote in defense of these things he would he would know that we do believe that God commands men everywhere to repent so let's hope we're not about to hear that God's grace can be demanded of Rebel sinners, but I have a feeling that might be what's coming up If they can't repent until they're born again, and yet God is commanding them to do something which they are not able to do

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What does that say It says that you are confused about the idea that a commandment implies the ability

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To free oneself from the bondage of sin so as to fulfill the commandment This again is just such a such common basic stuff

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And and I know I'm hearing some people in the eye is going yeah We've gone over this a thousand times before and they are just borrowing from one another and yes

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The the amazement continues and should continue that that individuals could be just so utterly disconcerned with Actually engaging the subject in a meaningful fashion that they would read the other side and and Most of us sit back and go yeah that really proves that the other side doesn't have much to say here

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And I would happen to agree that it that it does But you've got to remember that there's always new folks who are tuning in there are new folks that are being exposed this controversy

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And we cannot assume that everyone has always you know been there for everything We've said before and that's one of the reasons you have to go back over these things as frustrating as it might be to be able to make sure that an answer is given and you know a lot of these folks are looked up to is as just having the answers to all things and The fact that people can go back through the archives this program and see person after person after person after person after person

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Saying the same things refusing to interact in a meaningful fashion ignoring the responses that are offered that have been offered

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Not just by me, but by people for generations and generations and generations

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When one side refuses to accurately represent the other and the other is constantly working to provide

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Ever more in -depth and and full responses does it yeah that that does tell you a lot about where the truth lies

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No, no two ways about it about the character of God John 540 and you will not listen to what

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Jesus said you will not come to me that you might have lied He didn't say you cannot he said you will not

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Well, he said you cannot in John 644 so you put the two of them together and they make perfect sense in reform perspective

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But they don't make any sense from his perspective. Yes, they will not why won't they he couldn't say he could not say that in such a bland fashion

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If it were not for the universal Hatred of God's truth the fact that men are enemies of God unless God Intervenes and changes and takes out that heart of stone and and gives a heart of flesh.

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So we have here from former presidents of the best convention that continued repetition of the same human traditions that just simply

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Have have no basis whatsoever in Scripture. I I Think I can sense where this is going

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I may have prompted you a little bit early on this because I can tell it's probably upcoming but this is reminding me of the debate topic that the canners were looking for having to do with the omni benevolence of God and I heard a song today

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That I've never heard before and it had the lyric in it. I guess it it's going after the

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Christmas season concept of the birth of Christ from Joseph's point of view is

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The is is what the song is about and one of the things that this is Joseph singing to Jesus He says how do

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I communicate or how do I tell you about the reckless love of God? And I thought wait a minute.

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I Don't see God's love as being reckless. I see it being deliberate and And and he again you

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I will mercy who I will mercy and so is this

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Stemming from this kind of thinking is this is how they view God's quote -unquote omni benevolence is this is just an all a

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Saturation of the reckless love of God. It's just getting thrown out there recklessly. It it has no object

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It just is is out there and you got to grab it as it's flying by I don't know.

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I've not heard the song. So yeah, it just was a it was a concept that it's like Reckless love of God.

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I I don't I don't see that sounds real good in a song. Oh, yeah. Sure It sounds wonderful in a song.

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Actually, it didn't rhyme very well and it didn't plug very in very well for me, but it just struck me as something that Was an interesting way of putting it and it does sum up I think the way a lot of folks who are leaning towards inclusivism

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Well, there's certainly as Tom and I pointed out in in the Liberty presentation this form of Arminian ism and Arminian ism as a whole has struggled historically to keep from sliding into universalism because it has no

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Means of really stopping that process if you have this concept of an undifferentiated omnibenevolence that does not have to demonstrate wrath and holiness at the same time and you have

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This this kind of concept involved there's really it's really difficult to avoid universalism more and more books are coming out on that subject and It's it's pretty hard to fit into scripture, but you know, you can you can get you

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You know find a way around it one way or the other Now man has total inability to do anything to save himself, but he does have the

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God of given ability to receive salvation by faith Look at the parable of the prodigal son

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Did you remember what the prodigal son's father said about him when he came home? He said this my son was what?

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Dead now. He wasn't physically dead. He was spiritually. That's what it's all about spiritual death. This my son was dead

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While he was in that spiritually dead condition the prodigal down in the humping said what

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I Will arise and go to my father

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Now again you aside from the question of exactly what the prodigal son parable was meant to illustrate and who the older son is and Israel and the

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Gentiles and so on and so forth even going with the Interpretation being forced upon it by our speaker at the moment it seems that once again the the errant assumption is that Calvinists don't believe that men have wills and I Recognize that each one of us who has embraced

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Christ Has exercised our will to do so the question is not whether we have made that choice

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The question is not whether we can sing I have decided to follow Jesus The question is how did

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I do so since I was a slave to sin? Since I was under sins dominion since I was unable to do anything, which is pleasing to God What had to take place for me able for me to be able to do what is pleasing

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God was the action of the son In the hog pen pleasing to the father would that be pleasing that he would choose to return back to the father's side

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Well, of course So then how do you deal with the biblical passages that say that man cannot do that only one side?

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Seeks to look at all of these things the other side just throws out these texts and and shows no

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Recognition that there have been responses given and that they are presenting something that then Raises all sorts of issues with other texts that becomes the problem

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He evidently could exercise his will while he was spiritually dead Well, of course

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We if he's if he has come to that point of recognition of his need How do you know he's still spiritually dead even in the use of the parable, which

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I don't agree with in first place But how do you know when spiritual life took place that That's pretty pretty poor argumentation.

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You can probably see why a lot of these folks just are not really interested in debate at all Regeneration is really a part of the salvation package

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You you don't put it all out in chronological order The moment you receive the

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Lord Jesus Christ as your Savior a number of things happen. You are regenerated You are justified.

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You are converted. You are saved. It's all a part of the conversion the the salvation package total gravity art number two

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Unconditional election now, you'll notice none of the texts that are actually the clearest and strongest have been addressed

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There was nothing about John 644 there. There's nothing about from John 8 John 10. There's there's nothing from Romans 8

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The only thing that was addressed briefly was just the broad concept of spiritual death

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But the inability to hear the inability to come these inability passages totally passed by which again if your real

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Intention was to honor the Word of God in how you present these things you'd have to discuss these things

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You have to know they're there This man is not a novice in the sense of he hasn't read his

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Bible He's read these things and it's it's difficult for me to believe that how a how a person could read

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John 6 or John 8 Or could read Romans 8 and encounter those texts and not go Hmm, that's that, you know,

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I could see how someone would think that that is directly opposed to what I believe about man's free will and and since I'm a synergist and I agree with Rome against the

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Reformers on this subject and I I I believe that man has this capacity and of himself

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Then I should probably when I when I address a subject I should explain why these texts don't say that But while you hear us doing that and and dealing with their alleged problem texts in context

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You don't hear them doing that in reverse. Do you know you have you have great selectivity? And and then they put themselves in a position of not being challenged on that on those particular issues themselves

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Now this one gets a little sticky here This is probably the most difficult area Election means that before the world was before the stars were in the sky and fish were in the sea

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God in love chose you to be his very own Ephesians 1 4 & 5 according as he has chosen us that word chosen means he has elected us

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In him before the foundation of the world that we should be holy without blame before him in love

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Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ himself according to the good pleasure of his will now

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This means I can take no credit for my salvation Spurgeon said God certainly must have chosen me before the world was or he never would have chosen me afterward now

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I just love how these folks will go ahead and quote Spurgeon, but they'll quote Spurgeon only so far as to Let everybody go.

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Oh, yeah, I like that statement But then what he actually means by that and the fact that that he affirmed exactly what they are are preaching against Somehow gets gets lost in in the shuffle just a little bit

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We all say even to that, but if you push it to the extreme, ah, the extreme you mean like Spurgeon did

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The extreme says that God chose some To be saved but God chose some to be lost

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And once again, this one template that goes around and is used by all of these preachers once again demonstrates its utter incapacity to actually address the issue by making direct parallel out of God's electing grace

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And then trying to say well you see it's I choose you and then I choose I choose you for good

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I choose you for evil on these particular issues so that Election itself becomes the exact parallel to Reprobation which it is not and I've addressed this a number of times this was the error that Frank page makes it basically all these folks make the same error and The reason they do so is not because they have read

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Reformed Works and see that there and they're they're rebutting it The reason they do so is because of the emotional impact that it makes

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This is just simply a nicer way of Doing the dishonesty of the bus stop routine from Nelson Price And it is it is solely meant to create an emotional impact

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It doesn't have any real meaning as far as the the discussion is concerned

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But it but it certainly may has the the emotional impact of trying to make the extension of God's grace

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Undeserved toward rebel sinners the illustration of his mercy and grace the same thing as his giving of justice and holiness to rebel sinners and They are not the same thing

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Anyone who fails differentiate simply hasn't even begun to actually address the system and I would simply say anyone who is not who makes this kind of error is immediately dismissed from having anything meaningful to say on the subject and That would mean we don't really have almost anybody out there saying anything meaningful

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Meaningful because the the few people who will represent this properly are primarily philosophers who don't have much of an interest in engaging the biblical text themselves and So if you're actually looking for somebody who happens to believe the

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Bible is the Word of God and their beliefs should be derived from it It's pretty tough to find anybody who will accurately represent the other side and and and put the two things together

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Which for most people is why they're reformed it's because they looked around said hey

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There's there's nobody really arguing for the other side The only way you you possibly can argue for the other side and and so there you go

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And if you push it to its logical conclusion, it even goes to the point that God chose some babies

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Here come the babies to go to hell well, you know, I Don't know it's it's it's hard anymore to to you know

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To realize that these individuals at the at the heights of power can be just so utterly just Lacking in concern for for accuracy and what they say if you think

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I'm making that up, you don't know the literature There are some who are teaching popular speakers that God created some babies to go to hell

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When I saw those precious children baptized tonight, we got to touch my heart I'll tell you ladies and gentlemen,

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I don't for one moment believe that the God of this universe predestined any baby to go to hell

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You hear you hear that to hear that in the background pure emotion your emotion. Let's not talk about Pharaoh let's not actually deal with what the actual issue of infants is or or original sin or why infants die or God's purpose in creation just just get the emotions going and Demonstrate that you're really not serious about any of this stuff.

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Anyways, just it's horrible It's it's and and the leadership of the convention needs to come to understand that this kind of rhetoric

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And that's all it is. This is this is not preaching. This is a rhetoric It's so shallow and it can't stand up to even even the minuscule bit of examination that can be applied to it

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This will not keep the next generation of thinking people Now that might have worked when we lived in a society that wasn't constantly challenging the

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Christian faith but to be a meaningful Christian a means you're gonna be a thinking Christian and if you're a thinking

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Christian if You're a thinking Christian then you listen to this stuff and you go wait a minute.

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Well, wait, wait a minute There's there's just so much here that doesn't fit That may sound real good

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But the fact the matter is God created this universe and he knew that they're gonna be babies who died

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Now you may want to send every single baby who dies God knew and God created his universe. There'd be something called abortion

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Now again, if you want to be consistent Then I really think that that these folks and the leadership doesn't

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Babs Babs convention should get rid of The statement against open theism because at least if they get rid of God's exhaustive foreknowledge

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Then they can go well God didn't know that we'd ever come up with anything terrible like that and then they could you know, you know become can really consistent our minions and just throw out the nature of God because they're their whole

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Salvation system is based on man. Anyway, so just go that way that works then it and But they they can't and so they've got to deal with the fact that God knew

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When he created and God had a purpose and they've got to answer the question Yeah, well just cuz

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God knew didn't doesn't mean he caused it But I hear that over and over just cuz you know that Sonny and Cher got divorced don't mean you caused the divorce

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Sorry, but that's just silly And we are humans. We're looking back at it.

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That's not an analogy to God's knowledge for crying out loud. Oh my goodness If God knew before it took place when he created how did he know?

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If it is not a part of his creative decree look at Genesis 50 look at acts where let's deal with these texts

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Oh my goodness. Oh Yeah, yeah Now there are some four words that wrap around the election and I've got a hop skip and jump here now

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Because I know that the mind can comprehend only as long as the seat can endure so For knowledge is tied into it

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For knowledge we get our word prognosis from that prognosis the Greek word which means to know beforehand

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Romans 8 29 for whom he did foreknow. He also did predestinate and once again ignorance of the original literature ignorance of the subject causes folks just to pass the template around and Ignore the fact that he just used a noun for knowledge in a philosophical context and then applied it to a verb in the biblical

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Context creating havoc in the process. It is a shame to continue to hear these men doctor this doctor that doctor doctor doctor this and doctor doctor doctor that Who has taught here taught there taught there and yet that simple little thing going, excuse me, sir do you know the difference between a noun and a verb and that they are not simply interchangeable and That to foreknow is something

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God does and are you simply saying that God? gained knowledge of people

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When did he gain knowledge? When did God learn these things? How about looking into what the word itself means what it means for God to foreknow?

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That's an active thing And why don't you look at the objects that God foreknows and discover that there are never

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Actions that they are always people persons Yes basic stuff, but once again

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This is stuff that you're gonna have to explain one -on -one to people because Unfortunately, they've got the bully pulpit they've got the big churches and There's it's isn't it interesting that the people in those places want a man -centered gospel

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They want a gospel that they're in charge of they want a God that was just so glad to get hold of them

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That they have volunteered their services to God and he's very happy about it

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Yeah for knowledge is the divine attribute of God whereby he sees all things in the present time

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God's knowledge is not restricted to time. God is outside of time We live in three dimensions of time past present and future

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God is outside those dimensions everything with God is an eternal now It's like a parade and you're up on a tall building and you can see the entire parade

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You can see the beginning of the parade. You can see the middle of the parade. You can see the end of the parade That sounds wonderful.

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That sounds wonderfully orthodox. But what does it mean? There is a huge difference between saying

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God is outside of time and it is his Creation and Saying God is outside of time and he is observing events there in outside of his control

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Which is it going to be Which is consistent with biblical revelation which allows for biblical prophecy?

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What is directly supported by the text of Scripture where God is described as the one working all things after the counsel of his will?

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Where is this picture of? God as the little boy outside the toy store with his face plastered against the window.

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Where do you get that in Scripture? Just to exalt the creature man

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Where does that come from is what I would like to know God sees? Everything from the past to the present to the future in one eternal now

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Knowledge is based on fact How many of you been saved tonight if you've been born again if you've been saved raise your hand

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It is a fact that at some point in time you were saved your family and your friends

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Have after knowledge they look after the fact and have knowledge that you were safe God has foreknowledge.

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He looked before the fact and knows that you were saved There can be no question of God's foreknowledge.

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That's not what for knowing someone means and That would have to be addressed and I don't think it's going to be addressed but be that as it may

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That is not going to answer the question as to how God has knowledge of future events because we're still left with the philosophical conundrum raised by his own position as To who determined events in time and for what purpose but you see

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God's knowledge of the future Doesn't determine the future any more than our knowledge of the past determines the past.

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Well, there you go and there you have the direct assertion that events in time are outside of God's creative control outside of God's decree all those texts in Isaiah Everything it said about I do what

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I please and no one can stay my hand And and all the rest that stuff just got thrown out the window

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Don't tell me these people believe in the sovereignty of God because they do not he just knows it.

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He just knows Well, what about predestination? Well, the word predestination means to mark off boundaries.

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It means to determine before hand pre now Please note the common error derived primarily from Herschel Hobbes Repeated over and over again in Southern Baptist literature and so it's been repeated so often that people actually think it's true and don't bother

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To look it up. That is proridzo pra and horizon We're from each group from which we get horizon before the horizons to mark off horizons.

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No That's like saying for us television means far -seeing It doesn't mean far -seeing a television is a thing and it has a screen and we watch television on it

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I mean television has multiple meanings for us, but it's determined by its context. This is a basic first -year level exegetical error

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You're supposed to learn this right off the bat. It's almost like you get a doctorate and you forget the basic stuff

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It's amazing to me that this kind of thing can just go be repeated over and over and over again Without even taking a moment to go, you know, that doesn't make any sense

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So you're saying predestined means that God just lays out boundaries and yet the object is us.

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We are the ones predestined So, what do you mean? Well God laid out the boundaries and whoever believes in Jesus will be saved

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That sounds really nice But that doesn't mean anything if the object of proridzo is personal then that whole understanding of Predestination is absurd, isn't it?

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Yeah, and so doesn't this conversation take place? Uh, no Because in my experience in these big

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Southern Baptist churches these super preachers they don't get challenged on that level and if someone tries you're marked off as a troublemaker and You're invited to go elsewhere and that's how it works

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That's our destined something is determined to before hand Now if you push that to an extreme

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Just let this if you push that to extreme in other words If you let it speak in its own context you get a form of double predestination

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Which means that there are some who are predestined to heaven and there are some who are predestined to hell and there's nothing

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Anybody can do about it And of course if you are not at all interested in actually addressing the subject in a meaningful fashion

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You will continue to use this same template which makes that same kind of error where you make the two equal to one another and that Seems to be what dr.

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Barnes is intent on doing But when you study Cal carefully, please the four

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I think it's four references Where the word predestination is used are predestined you will discover that the word

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Predestination has to do with purposes not people It has to do with saved not lost

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Well, think about right there. There you go saved not lost.

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What does that mean? That means you're wrong? To be making the entire argument that you're making that these are two equal things

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That's what it means, but they won't think about that. And what is saying is this it is saying that God has determined That every born -again

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Child of God will ultimately be like his son the Lord. Jesus.

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Listen to Romans chapter 8 and verse 29 He did predestinate to be

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Conformed to the image of his son. Listen friend If you're a saved person tonight you one day are going to be like Jesus Christ Conformed to the image of Christ has been predetermined

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So what you do is you take one element of the truth and that is that a part of God's predestination of individuals to salvation inclusive of adoption

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Conformed the image of Christ so and so forth you take that one element and then what you do is to say well

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Predestination doesn't mean he chose who would be conformed he only chooses that all who believe there you throw in the

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Entirety of the creatures will and you throw out the will of God And now you just simply have well

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God's sort of predestined a plan He's predestined these parameters that whoever believes will be conformed the image of Christ And what you've done is you've turned the text on its head

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You have no basis for saying it, but you just say it fast enough that you hope No one's really gonna catch you as you're running by But there's nowhere in the

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Bible that it says that some people are predestined to go to hell but there's plenty of places where it says that there are people who are predestined to go to heaven and That's the only thing we're saying and those others receive justice because predestination is an extension of grace and mercy not an extension of of justice and holiness see

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So if he was just responding to actual Calvinism, he'd have absolutely Positively nothing to set up this point.

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We have been sitting here for 20 minutes in silence It wouldn't have been any a man and and it wouldn't been going

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No, no, that would be going on You just would have had the end of the song service and he was stood there staring at all of us and that doesn't really

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Work very well. What about election? Is it unconditional? Well from the standpoint of God the giver? Yes But from the standpoint of the receiver it is conditioned by faith.

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I want you to turn where'd that come from? Where'd that come from? Some of you know, some of you know, yeah, you got it

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No, I'm gonna get this one They'll put it up, but I want you to just turn and mark this one second Thessalonians chapter 2 and verse 13 second

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Thessalonians chapter 2 13 and I will show you what this passage this verse of Scripture has to say about the whole matter of God choosing

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God electing Now notice what it says second Thessalonians 2 13, but we are bound to give thanks always to God for you brethren

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Why are we elected beloved of the Lord? He loves you. That's why you're elected When are we elected because God has from the beginning chosen you to salvation.

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How are we elected through? sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth

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God the Holy Spirit sets you apart God the Holy Spirit Convicts you of your lostness and your need of Jesus Christ And then when you hear the gospel preached by our pastor or whoever preaches it you believe the truth of the gospel

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And you're one of the elect Immediately At that point you're going.

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Yes. Yes But why is it that when that message is preached to two people?

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One hears one believes The other does not

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And see his answer because he will not have the elect being the elect from eternity as the free choice of God But election is is us we're the ones who determine whether we're going to be elect or not by what we do

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He can't answer that question Why should we give thanks did you notice that was the one thing he didn't ask at the beginning of the verse

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Beginning where it says, but we shall always give thanks to God if you why? Why if it is your faith in the truth at the end of the verse that makes everything before that fruitful

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Remember from his perspective everything before that is true of the elect and the non -elect. It's true of everybody everybody's loved by the

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Lord Everybody's chosen you from beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit the

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Spirit comes and tries to bring salvation everybody But it's your action

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Faith and the truth that determines whether all that other stuff's gonna happen or not. Notice the backwards reading of the text

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The natural reading of the text is we give thanks to God Why because God is the one who not just makes salvation a theoretical possibility

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Why shouldn't we give thanks to God why shouldn't we give thanks to both God and you

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We should give thanks to God and we should give thanks to you brethren beloved by the Lord who also loved the

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Lord Because while God chose you and everyone else from the beginning for salvation to sanctification by the

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Spirit you Exercised your free will for faith in the truth and therefore made

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God successful in saving you That would be the Arminian version of 2nd

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Thessalonians 2 13 or the inconsistent Arminian version 2nd Thessalonians 2 13 But he doesn't give thanks to God and them

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Because God is the one Who loved them before they ever loved him?

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Why do we love because he loved us and God who is the one who chose you

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Not chose an amorphous group Not chose Parameters or plans

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God shows you remember this is the text Dave Hunt doesn't even know exists. I Had to introduce it to him in his

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Bible. He hadn't found it yet Remember, he kept running around doing sermons and writing books saying that there's no place in the

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Bible were chosen for salvation I had to sort of point this one out to him and his response was well There's that's the

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Dave Hunt response there and there's dozens of other verses and say otherwise we don't need that verse God has chosen you

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From the beginning for salvation through Sanctification and faith and notice the immediate assumption on the part of vines that faith

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Implies the autonomous will of man Sanctification by the Spirit which involves taking out a heart of stone giving a heart of flesh new nature all the rest that stuff

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Changing the very mind of man. Well, we'll leave that in the spirits realm, but faith The natural way of reading the text is that we give thanks because Everything is from God the choosing from eternity

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Sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth even the truth we were dependent upon God for Which is why there is no ground for boasting

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None is By his doing that you're in Christ Jesus 1st Corinthians chapter 1 not by our doing that we are in Christ Jesus See what happens when your traditions mess with even your examination of the text.

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It causes you to read it backwards I'll never forget first time I read Norman Geisler Commenting on John 6 44

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Romans 9 16 saying we say here are the free will of man You Know Honestly, it's the same feeling

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I get when I read a Mormon look at Isaiah 43 10. Look at it We've got plenty of gods here Before me there was no

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God for him. There's lots of there's lots of other gods and you just go what? Tradition glasses are scary things

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All right, number three limited atonement Now here's the most objectionable probably of all of them limited atonement some call it particular atonement

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Anybody want to put a put a bet out on the table as to how accurate this representation is going to be

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Think we're gonna hear anything about the the fact that if you reject particular redemption you should never use terminology as substitutionary atonement you think there's gonna be any recognition of Holding to particular redemption by the

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Sandy Creek Association Baptist Churches Yeah, no, no, no, no, don't don't expect that.

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No You think there's gonna be anything here about? Christ role is interesting intercessor anything here about the

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Trinity and the the Community of the divine persons and their harmony in bringing about redemption and the fact that Christ Intercessory work and his high priestly work must mesh with one of they must be consistent

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You think we're getting a lot of in -depth examination of Hebrews, for example You you think

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I'm maybe asking for riches looking at me like I'm overdoing this point a bit, huh?

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Yeah me either Most of the eject objections to Calvinism stem from this right here.

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No, they do not No, they do not. I'm sorry. Dr. Vines, but you couldn't be more wrong.

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In fact the vast majority vast majority not that little teeny tiny vocal group of Folks on the web boards and the email lists who just hammer away on this

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But the vast majority of people who rather flippantly call themselves four pointers When you really start pushing their objection is against unconditional election not particular redemption

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Their objection is against unconditional election and frequently you start pushing them and it goes farther back than that They're not four pointers all their name one pointers when you really start pushing it

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But anyway, in fact many Calvinists themselves have become so uncomfortable with this particular tenant

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That they have taken a position which they call modified Calvinism And Well, let me tell you something

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I am not only not uncomfortable

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I Say to you I am so thankful That Christ is a perfect Savior who never fails to accomplish what he determines to accomplish and I am so thankful That the cross is not a place of failure.

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It is not a place where God made somebody savable It is a place of salvation it self because you see

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Calvinism teaches that Christ's death on the cross was for the elect and not for the whole world

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Now let's be a little bit more specific Christ Atoning work

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And this is where there's some confusion these days and I people even go back to the little book.

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I did on justification in like 1990 somewhere around in there and I made this little statement about You know making that very specific because clearly

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There are things that God does in this world in light of what he did in the cross

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Outside of the redemption of the elect There is for example of vindication of God's justice in The giving of his son there is a vindication of his justice

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There is a vindication of his love of his work There's all sorts of those types of things can be seen just simply in the whole idea of the incarnation and the cross itself

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There is a a judicial basis upon which God has acted in the cross Those things are all all fine and dandy, but it has nothing to do with answering the important question

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This is the question that has to be addressed and the way that dr. Vines just put it demonstrates. He doesn't even know this

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He's not even familiar with this What was the intention of God the

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Father God the Son and God the Holy Spirit with reference to the sin of mankind in the atoning work of Christ That's the question you have to ask you can ask all sorts of other questions.

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You can assert all sorts of other purposes Non -salvific purposes in the cross and we can discuss those things

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But you can't use those things to get around dealing with the issue does the death of Christ perfect anyone or not?

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You've got to go there. You've got to deal with those things and You've got to go there first you

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Again it is just so outside the realm of the thinking of most people today But we should be concerned first and foremost with God's intention and God's purpose as long before we start thinking about what men are gonna

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Think about it or how men are gonna feel about it, but that's not the way the most theologies done today

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Which is why there's almost no meaningful Theology being done today, you know, we rightfully talk about standing on the on the shoulders of Giants No one's even bothering to pull at their pant legs today

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It's just amazing stuff We sang these beautiful songs this this hope tonight about the cross for man the creatures sin

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That by the way written by someone who believed what he doesn't believe the death of Christ for the whole world

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No, it's not but the countess said no no, no, no, and they referred a lot of scriptures for instance, Matthew 121

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He shall save his people from their sin they say they say see that just his people that's all he's gonna say

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Whether the back back back back back back up the truck again. We see why these folks won't debate

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Matthew 121 is extremely relevant night you obviously as I said,

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I would like to hear a discussion of Hebrews and fundamentals the Atonement and stuff like that But let's back up the truck a second

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He will save his people from their sins Yes, there is a delineation his people but why is that important in the reformed use of Matthew 121?

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Because of what he skipped over he will save Not he will make savable if You don't emphasize both you're not even starting to address the point

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So why even bother trying to raise one of the objections you're trying to respond if you don't even put it in the context in Which it is is itself presented

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He will save not he will make savable He will save his people from their sins.

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He has that capacity. He has that ability not He will make them savable not he will try He will save his people in their sins.

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That's the points being made The only real argument you try to make against that as well You know That's just that's just a statement of of the final conclusion of all things is that his people will be saved

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From their sins by his work But it's really not commenting on anything beyond that as to how someone becomes a part of that people

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It's 2028 the Church of God, which he has purchased with his own blood. He just died for the church

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Go to Ephesians 5 for that more next 2028, especially because the textual variant there mark 1045 to give his life a ransom for many not for all but just for many well in its

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Isaiah context back in 53 Looking at the many is very important very important indeed

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But you can tell he's just sort of getting a wind -up going here. And so, you know expect a whole lot of real

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Depth at this point in time Galatians 220. He gave himself for me said Paul. Well now, wait a minute

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Are we gonna say then that that's the only one that Christ died for was Paul? No, what did

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Paul actually say I Have been crucified with Christ and is not I who live but Christ lives in me and I life that I lived

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I live by the faith the Son of God loved me and gave himself for me. Yeah. Here's the question. Dr. Vines.

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Oh That we could get response. Oh That we could have a dialogue Here's a question.

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Dr. Vines Can a person in hell for eternity

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Quote Galatians 220 is their own Evidently, you'd say yes Anybody who denies particular redemption would have to say yes.

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Yes Genghis Khan Adolf Hitler Man that we would identify as evil evil individuals

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Will be able to in the future eternal say

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I Was crucified with Christ The Son of God loved me the

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Son of God tried to save me and we think about have you ever thought about this?

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Think about this for a moment if the person in hell is Expressing his hatred toward God All restraint removed the blackness of his heart in full expression.

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No light left No light given This is the suffering of hell itself if that person in his hatred of God could sit there and say

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He tried The triune God tried and to this very day and for eternity, he will be sad because I frustrated him

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I Made the death of Christ empty in my behalf by my almighty will

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Don't you think there would be some? Some satisfaction On the part of that hateful creature in hell.

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Do you really think? That in the depths of hell those

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Haters of God will be able to say hi. He loved me and he gave himself for me

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And all my sins were nailed to the cross of Calvary Taken away, but I spit in God's face

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And now I'm being punished for those same sins. He's punished him twice. I Made the cross empty.

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I'm so happy about that You really think God would give them that satisfaction

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That really what you you really think that they're gonna be able to say the son pled my case before the father and he failed and The father decreed my salvage and he failed the spirit tried to bring myself.

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He failed I defeated God I'm right where I want to be.

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I win. You really think that's what he's gonna be doing That's the result of fuzzy contradictory

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Non -biblical theology may sound good may preach good

58:19

Makes for bad theology. We'll continue next time the dividing line. See you then

58:48

Leave the standard at the crossroads Away We need a new reformation

59:24

I The dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries

59:34

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