September 12, 2023 Show with Patti Height on “Confronting & Refuting the Lie that Homosexuality Is a Permanent Fixture in the Heart & Mind”

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Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer

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George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend

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Jim Thorpe. It's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs, chapter 27, verse 17, tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth, who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this 12th day of September, 2023.

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I am so excited that already we're only a few days away from the

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Future of Christendom Conference in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania, more specifically at the

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Spooky Nook Sports and Events in Mannheim, Pennsylvania. And this is a three -day conference featuring keynote speaker,

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Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries, a part of this conference, which is

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Friday, Saturday, and Sunday, September 15th, 16th, and 17th, a part of this conference, which will be on Saturday, September 16th, will be a debate that Dr.

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James R. White will be conducting with Dr. Gregory Coles. And the theme of this debate is,

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Is Gay Christian a Biblically Acceptable Identity for a Member of Christ's Church?

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Dr. Gregory Coles, who will be Dr. James R. White's opponent in this debate, identifies himself as a gay

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Christian, and so that is why the theme is worded in that way. And if you have not yet registered for this three -day conference, including the debate, please go to futureofchristendom .org,

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futureofchristendom .org, to find out all the details you need to know and also to register.

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And I hope to see as many of you in my listening audience as possible there in attendance.

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And please greet me at the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Exhibitor's booth. But today we have a program, an interview, that I think is a perfect venue to promote that debate that I just mentioned.

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I am so thrilled that I have for the very first time on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Patty Height, who was rescued by the mercy and grace of God from her enslavement to same -sex attraction, gender confusion, and a lesbian lifestyle, made a new creation in Christ Jesus, and founded

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Out of Egypt Ministries, and she's also a speaker at an upcoming event at Tree of Life Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

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Today Patty is going to be addressing, Confronting and Refuting the Lie that Homosexuality is a

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Permanent Fixture in the Heart and Mind. And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Sharpens Thank you so much,

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Chris, for having me. I'm humbly excited to spend a little bit of time with you and with Pastor Eric, and we'll see how the

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Lord leads and directs our conversation to bring Him glory, to edify the

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Church, and to bring truth to those who maybe are not walking in truth, because it's the truth that sets us free.

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Amen. And before I introduce Pastor Eric Mosman of Tree of Life Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, why don't you tell our listeners about Out of Egypt Ministries.

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Out of Egypt Ministries is a ministry that the Lord raised up a little over 10 years ago, maybe even 11 years ago, when the

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Lord asked me to step out in faith, to go to any church or school or college or youth group or youth camps that would have me that want to learn more about the

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LGBT people so that they can minister to those in their community, those in their homes, those in their workplaces.

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Because we as a church, I think, need to have a better understanding of people that we minister to so we can meet them right where they are in both grace and truth.

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And that's what the Lord has called Out of Egypt Ministries to do. Yeah, one of the things that I loved hearing from you before the program was that you are there to equip the local church in how to best and most effectively reach out to those entrapped by the sin of homosexuality.

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Am I right? Yes, yes, absolutely. And if anybody wants more details, we'll be repeating this later on.

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But if you want more details on Out of Egypt Ministries, go to outofegypministries .org,

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outofegypministries .org. Now I'd like to introduce someone who's also on the program for the very first time,

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Eric Mosman. Eric Mosman is the pastor of Tree of Life Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, not far from where I'm sitting right now.

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And this church is also going to be hosting an event in October featuring guest speaker

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Patty Height. In fact, it will be the two days after my next

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Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Free Pastors Luncheon, which is going to be held on October 5th.

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And Patty will be speaking at Tree of Life Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, on the 6th and 7th,

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Friday and Saturday of October. But it's my honor and privilege to welcome you also to Iron Sharpens Iron for the very first time,

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Pastor Eric Mosman. It's a joy to join you and be with Patty in your program. If you could briefly describe for our listeners,

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Tree of Life Church of Carlisle. It was founded in the late 90s, and I started pastoring it in right whenever COVID started, so I had a trial by fire entering into it.

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I have seen God's grace and mercy help shepherd us through this time for the opportunity to bring

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Patty and her ministry here to Tree of Life. And her aim is our purpose in equipping the

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Saints with conversations around a very confusing time when it comes to gender identity and sexual inclusion.

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And so our aim of having Patty be a part of this ministry here. Those who come to have an open forum, an opportunity to dialogue through and have difficult, receiving tools and help and encouragement in addressing their family situations in the lives of so many people who are walking through the cultural confusion of our time is to give them the tools and opportunity to have these conversations and to know what, maybe what to avoid, what pitfalls to avoid and how to navigate very difficult conversations.

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Well, if anybody wants more details about the Tree of Life Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, go to tlccarlisle .church,

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tlccarlisle .church, and I'm assuming you can get all the details that you need to attend

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Patty Heitz speaking engagements there on Friday and Saturday, October 6th and 7th here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

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Well, Patty, please, if you could provide for our listeners your story going back to your youngest age where you can actually remember consciously wondering about your gender and so on.

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I heard or saw and heard a YouTube video of your remarkable testimony.

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And if you could, please start with that. Yes, yes. Well, my first memories that I can truly consciously have and take a hold of and say that that was truly a memory was probably around five or six years old, probably more like five.

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And what I what I consciously remember is that I thought I was a boy.

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I was born and raised in western New York, just southwest of Buffalo.

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So I guess my first trauma was being a Buffalo Bills fan. I have to say that if anybody listening watched the game last night for Monday night football, goodness gracious, you know, my you know, my difficulties.

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But in all seriousness, I didn't think I was any different than the other boys that were were in my neighborhood.

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We we all played together. And so I walked the same. I talked the same. I moved the same.

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I was very athletically blessed. And so as I was out playing in the neighborhood, as you did back then,

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I'll be 57 years old tomorrow. So, you know, times were very different then. There weren't play dates.

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You played with neighborhood kids. I fit in just like the other boys. And so when

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I started hearing how language was being brought to me different than it was to them in the sense that my best friend

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Johnny was addressed as he or him or brother or son, I was being addressed as she her daughter and girl.

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And that was before preferred pronouns, all of that. But within myself, I still recognized that there was a difference in our identifiers, even though on the inside I didn't feel any different than than Johnny and Brian and Billy, our little neighborhood crew.

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And so when I started expressing this to my parents, in particular, my mother, she became very concerned.

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And at eight years old, she brought me to our family doctor and said, my daughter thinks she's a boy.

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What should we do? And as per her referring to this story, she said the doctor said, don't worry about it.

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She'll make a fine wife someday. She'll grow out of this and she'll be fine. What we know now is statistically that's actually accurate.

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Most children who have gender confusion, if there's no affirmation or no bullying from anyone and they just make their way through puberty on the other side of puberty, statistically, it's the high 80s or even into the 90 percent of those children no longer have that same type of gender confusion.

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However, that wasn't my story. I continued in gender confusion, which eventually became gender dysphoria.

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And then as I got a little older and that puberty did start kicking in, that's when I realized I was attracted to girls the same way the boys were.

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So that was all very confusing for me. There wasn't anyone for me to talk to back then concerning these issues.

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So I just buried all of that deep inside. When I hit high school, I tried to present myself in a more feminine manner, but I was still being made fun of.

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So having long hair didn't make a difference. I was still being called derogatory names and such.

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And so it was very, very difficult. That in itself was difficult. But there was other situations in my life that caused deep wounds within my heart and my soul.

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And that was just the communication that I saw between my parents in the home.

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And this isn't me blaming my parents or throwing them under the bus. It's just what I experienced. And it plays a part in my testimony.

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But I saw my father consistently berate and degrade my mother with names and just calling her useless and worthless and stupid.

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And so I heard that every day. And in my little child minds, my choice was either to believe my dad with his words and that would make my mother stupid and worthless and crazy or not believe my dad.

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But that would make him really mean and a liar. So what my brain chose to receive and then my heart received was that my my mom was those things that he identified her as.

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And so I detached from my mom and just grew more in wanting to identify as as a boy because that brought strength.

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And these boys growing into men seem to have more have a stronger character and more protection and better jobs and more fun jobs.

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And so that's what I wanted. And during that time, I was also experiencing sexual abuse.

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And so, again, with my mind trying to figure out what was happening and how to make sense of all this, the way my thoughts received it was that only little girls get sexually molested, not little boys.

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So if I could just somehow physically become this boy that I already feel like in my heart and my mind, maybe the sexual abuse would stop.

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But obviously, that's not what happened. And so I just, again, buried all of that.

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I tried, like I said, conforming to what I believe my family in the world wanted of me as a girl.

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So at 19 years old, I got married. That was a failed marriage. And then after that,

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I fully came out and started identifying and presenting, not really identifying, but I started presenting in the masculine, but identifying as gay.

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And that's when I actually felt relief and freedom for the first time. I felt relief.

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Identifying in the masculine because I felt like that if if men saw me as a man, they would not try to ever hurt me again.

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So I presented in the masculine. So my my armor was my my male persona, my male clothing, my underclothing, my outer clothing.

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Everything that I bought was from the men's department. So that was my my suit of armor.

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That was my protection because I wasn't raised in a Christian home and I didn't know anything about the

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Lord. I certainly didn't know anything about Ephesians chapter six where I can wear the armor of God instead of creating my own armor.

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And for those of you who might not know what I'm talking about in Ephesians chapter six, it's where to where to stand strong in the

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Lord and stand in these days of evil that we're in and and and have the helmet of salvation and the breastplate of righteousness and hold up the shield of faith and wear the belt of truth and and carry around walking in the shoes of peace.

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And of course, have the sword of the spirit, which is the word of God in our hearts and minds at all time.

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But I didn't know anything about that. So I created my own armor. I didn't know anything about God.

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So I created my own God. I believed in reincarnation. I believed in mother nature.

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I believed maybe UFOs carried aliens that were godlike somehow.

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I I wasn't an atheist. I knew there was someone or something bigger and better and higher and stronger than me.

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I just didn't know who that God was. And I certainly didn't look into the

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God of Christianity because the only thing I knew about that God was from the signs that I would see being held up at gay pride parades that would say things like God made

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Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve, or homos will burn in hell or God hates fags.

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And so I pulled as far away from that God as I could, but always seeking to find some type of spirituality.

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And so God knew that was enough for the Lord. He knew that in that seeking, it was truly him that I was seeking.

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And so he came and made himself very known to me through two very difficult circumstances,

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I believe, led me to really come to see who the Lord was.

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And that was through 9 -11, which we just want to use the word celebrated.

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But we just acknowledged again yesterday, I was a flight attendant for a major airline based out of Newark, New Jersey.

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And so was my girlfriend at the time. And so we both had 9 -11 off.

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And so we watched this devastation take place from our home. Our house was 17 miles as a crow flies from the towers.

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We didn't know if we knew any friends working those flights that day. Our families couldn't get a hold of us.

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They didn't know if we were working the flights that day. And so it was very, very devastating. It was very, very hard to get back on an airplane and work those flights again, not knowing if something like this was going to happen on our flights.

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And then just a couple of months after that, my only brother, Larry, was diagnosed with lung cancer. And so I would go, you know,

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I'd be in in Newark, New Jersey, working flights, not knowing if I was going to literally die that day.

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And then on my days off, I would drive to Janestown, New York and and spend time with my brother and help him, not knowing if he was going to die from the cancer.

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And so death was death was becoming more and more real to me. And in the process of visiting my brother.

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He told me when one time I came and he's like, Patty, sit down, I have something to tell you, it's so exciting.

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And I was like, are you in remission? Are you are you going to make it through this? He's like, no, no, no, not that.

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He's like, Bruce, Bruce Nordwall, the guy across the street has been bringing his Bible over and reading these things called the

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Gospels to me and they talk about Jesus and Patty. I believe in Jesus now. Praise God.

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And his face just lit up, man. When I tell you we come from a long line of unbelievers.

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And so I was I was so excited because I saw his excitement. But at the same time, there was a little fear in my heart wondering if he was now going to tell me that I was going to go to hell because I was gay.

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So he didn't. He had a conversation with Bruce and asked Bruce, you know,

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Larry asked me, Patty, do you believe in God? Do you and your girlfriend believe in God? And I said, yes, absolutely.

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Of course, you know, because I had made up my own. So I answered yes. And so Larry brought that to Bruce and said,

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Bruce, my sister and her girlfriend say they believe in God. Are they going to go to heaven? And Bruce told my brother, he's like,

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Larry, there's a couple of things he's like, if Patty and her girlfriend truly believe in Jesus Christ, then they have the

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Holy Spirit dwelling inside of them. And the Holy Spirit convicts us of sin, of righteousness and of of justice.

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And the Holy Spirit will convict them of the sin that they're in. And they'll lay that down before the

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Lord and walk with him instead of walking with each other. Amos 3, 3 says, can two walk together unless they are agreed?

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And so he's like, there's that. He's like, but if they don't believe in Jesus Christ as their

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Lord and Savior, then they won't be going to heaven. But it has nothing to do, so to speak, of their homosexuality.

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It has to do with the fact that they don't believe in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. As John the

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Baptist was was declaring Jesus as he was walking on the scene, as Jesus was coming to be baptized, he says, behold, the

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Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. And Jesus does take away our sin as as a whole, the sin of unbelief.

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And then every single sin that we've ever committed in our life, past, present and future,

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Jesus died for on that that cross for our salvation. And so. Now that I added a lot to that, but but it was a basic, simple conversation between Bruce and Larry, and my brother told me that, and that was the first time there was ever a seed planted in my heart that said, wait.

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God could love me if I just simply believe in him, but that's as far as it went.

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And then shortly after that, my brother, as I was holding his hand in the hospital, he passed away.

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My brother died right in front of me and that changed everything. And so.

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So one morning, shortly after that, I woke up, I rolled over and I looked at my girlfriend and I just said.

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Do you ever think the way we're living is wrong? Wow. I couldn't I couldn't believe those words came out of my mouth, like like, you know, you want to take them back as soon as you say them, especially when she looked at me with the biggest eyes

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I'd ever seen her have in our long relationship that we had with each other. And she responded with this.

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And it's still this is my story. It still blows my mind. She said, I can't believe you just asked me that.

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I was literally just getting ready to ask you the same thing. Wow. That is who our

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God is. That is who God in the Holy Spirit is. And he came and he met us right in the midst of our sin.

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And so we were very moved by that. And we just got on our knees right in our bedroom and said,

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God, if you're real, will you show us? And if the way we're living is wrong, show us.

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And so I'm like, hey, I think I think we need a Bible because my brother said that that was pretty important.

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So so we run up into our attic and we're fishing through boxes and we find one and we come downstairs with this

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Bible in our hand, not knowing what to do with it or just flipping through pages and pages and pages.

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And finally, I'm like, this is ridiculous. I point my hand in the Bible and I said, let's just see what it says right here.

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And as God would have it, that happened to be Leviticus 18, 22, which says, and you shall not lie with a male as with a woman.

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It is an abomination. That's remarkable. And so obviously, obviously we don't encourage people to do their

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Bible study that way. But God just in his providence happened to do that. In that case, yes.

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Now, wasn't that ironically, please, folks, don't think for a second that I am condoning the

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Westboro Baptist Church and their hellish behavior, their mockery of people who are in their sin, particularly homosexuals, with zero compassion to want to see them come to Christ.

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But isn't that the verse that the Westboro Baptist Church folks were putting on their signs that you saw?

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Yes, it is. And I'm glad you said that, Chris, because that's the difference of First Corinthians 13, verse one.

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And first first Corinthians 13, verse eight, the first Corinthians 13, one says that that even though we speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, we become a sounding brass and a clanging cymbal.

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Right. And then we typically call first Corinthians 13, the love chapter and see we see what love is and what love isn't.

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And then when we get to verse eight of that chapter, it says love never fails. And so I believe when we come to people with God's word, if we come humbly and full of grace and if they're the spirit of God is telling us that they're ready to receive that particular verse because he's already been working on their heart, then

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I believe we can bring God's word to people with both grace and truth, because first Corinthians 13 also says,

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I believe it's first six that says love does not rejoice in iniquity, but it rejoices in the truth.

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So so love is true. But so there you had an example, just like with Joseph and his brothers who sold him into slavery.

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You have an example of in regard to the God hates fags, folks, what you meant for evil,

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God meant for good. And that verse burned in your memory that you saw in the

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Bible when you pointed at it. And people might be wondering, well, how could holding up a biblical text be meant for evil?

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Well, it's because, as I said before, the Westboro Baptist Church cult has no desire to see homosexuals come to Christ.

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They are just there to publicly taunt them and to mock them and laugh and rejoice in their being hell bound.

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They have no desire to win them to Christ. So that's why I described it as intending it for evil, because people do use the scriptures in evil ways.

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Yes. And we know that that's not why God has given us his his holy word. Amen. Well, let's pick up where you left off, because we have to go to our first commercial break.

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And all right. And if anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own for Patty Height, our email address is

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ChrisArnson at gmail .com, ChrisArnson at gmail .com. As always, give us your first name, at least city and state and country of residence.

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If you live outside the USA, please only remain anonymous. If your question involves a personal and private matter, perhaps you share some of the same background as our guest,

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Patty. Perhaps you're struggling with same sex attraction, whatever the issue is that would compel you to remain anonymous.

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We would be more than happy to honor your request. But if it's a general question, please give us your first name, at least city and state and country of residence.

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We'll be right back with Patty Height and Pastor Eric Mosman right after these messages from our sponsors.

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The Mid -Atlantic Reformation Society presents The Future of Christendom 2023, The Gospel at War, September 15th to the 16th in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania, featuring

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Dr. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries will be debating Dr. Gregory Coles, author of Single Gay Christian, A Personal Journey of Faith and Sexual Identity.

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James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries here. I'm very excited to announce that my longtime friend Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and I are heading down to Atlanta, Georgia again for the

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Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio. That's Royal Diadem .com, mention Iron Sharpen's Iron. We're now back with our guest,

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Patty Height, a former lesbian and founder of Out of Egypt Ministries and speaker at an upcoming event at Tree of Life Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, October 6th and 7th.

37:23

That's a Friday and Saturday. And we also have with us serving as a co -host, the pastor of Tree of Life Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, Eric Mosman.

37:34

And we are discussing Patty Height's testimony and also the theme confronting and refuting the lie that homosexuality is a permanent fixture in the heart and mind.

37:44

If you have a question, go to ChrisOrenson at gmail .com, ChrisOrenson at gmail .com and give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence, unless your question is personal and private.

37:54

And before the break, Patty, as you may recall, we had reached the point in your testimony where you and your girlfriend at the time, after really being convicted that the way you were living was ungodly, you got down on your knees and began to pray.

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And why don't you pick up from where you left off there? Yeah, praise the

38:15

Lord for conviction. So, as I said, we grabbed a Bible, the

38:21

Lord, through his sovereignty, led us to Leviticus 18, 22, which says,

38:26

And you shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination.

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And before I go on, I just want to pause for a second and say that that scripture says it is an abomination, not they are an abomination.

38:42

The Lord, in his word, is talking about the behavior, that it is sinful and it is not right, according to God's word, according to creation.

38:52

It is not natural. And not only that verse, but the other verses in the

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Bible that talk about homosexual sexual behavior, it only talks about it in a behavioral way, never in an identity.

39:09

Nowhere in the Bible does it call homosexuality an identity, only a sexual behavior.

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And it always describes it as sinful. So we saw that verse.

39:20

We were very moved by that. But neither one of us being raised in the church didn't really know what to do with that.

39:28

So after about a week, I was like, that's only talking about men. I wonder if the Bible says anything about women being together.

39:35

So we asked a friend at work if there was any that was a Christian, if she knew about anything in the

39:42

Bible talking about women being together intimately and sexually as being sinful.

39:48

And she told us to read Romans chapter one. And we did because we were seeking.

39:54

So when we got to Romans chapter one, verse 26 and 27, this is what we read.

40:00

For this reason, God gave them up to vile passions, for even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature.

40:10

Likewise, also the men. So that word likewise is is a continuation of this thought that we see, this truth that we see in verse 26.

40:20

Likewise, also the men leaving the natural use of the woman burned in their lust for one another. Men with men committing what is shameful and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error, which was due.

40:32

So at that point, we knew we had to find a church, which was very scary for us.

40:39

But but that's that's it was burning in our hearts to find a church. And so we found one in in Old Bridge, New Jersey, Calvary Chapel, Old Bridge, New Jersey.

40:50

Pastor Lloyd Pulley was the pastor. Then he is the pastor now. And we we walked in and we felt welcome.

40:59

We didn't either people were really welcoming us or the Lord was shielding us from any strange looks or anything like that.

41:10

But we walked in like anyone else. And we looked like a gay couple, like a lesbian couple.

41:17

And so we sat down in the back in the center section. No, just kidding.

41:23

Like the bleachers, Yankee Stadium or something. But yeah, so I saw what

41:32

I didn't know then was what we would in our Christian ease describe as a worship team.

41:37

I saw this band up on stage with all kinds of instruments and microphones and pianos and drums and guitars everywhere.

41:46

And I'm like, what in the world is this? Because I'd never heard worship music before in my life.

41:52

I heard Christmas music at Christmas and I heard Easter music at Easter on the radio. And that was about it.

41:58

So when the worship started and I saw the words to the songs on the screens and these words were talking about the holiness and the righteousness and the power of God, I had never heard

42:12

God described that way before. But what really got me is when the song started talking about how much he loved me.

42:19

When I saw that, I started weeping, like weeping. And I didn't cry. I did not cry because that indicated weakness and weakness indicated vulnerability.

42:29

And vulnerability to me indicated fear, fear.

42:36

So so I just I was letting it out. I was weeping and crying. And then I started arguing with God, saying, there's no way you could love me like these songs say.

42:47

I'm dirty. I'm filthy from the things that have happened to me. I'm dirty from the things that that I've done.

42:53

I don't even know who I am in my gender. And I'm gay. My girlfriend is sitting right next to me.

43:00

There's no way, God, you could love me. And when I tell you he was he was just he was washing me with the truth that he loved me.

43:11

And that changed everything in my heart. I came into agreement with what he said.

43:18

And then as Calvary Chapel at that time did,

43:24

Pastor Lloyd gave an invitation to pray and just come before the

43:31

Lord in repentance and come into the knowledge of truly receiving him.

43:38

As John chapter one says, that those who receive believe and receive

43:43

Jesus to them, they have the right to now become to be called children of God. And so I didn't understand that.

43:50

I left that day not understanding, but knowing that I left different than I did when

43:58

I came in. I went there the next Sunday. The same thing happened. The worship music, weeping and crying, hearing the word of truth as Lloyd was teaching through the word, verse by verse.

44:12

And then that struggle at the end of like, can I really believe in this this

44:17

God and can he really love me? And then the following week, I I went and I stood before the

44:26

Lord. I stood before the congregation and I cried out and asked God the father to forgive me of my sins for Jesus to be my my

44:34

Lord and my savior and to be filled with the Holy Spirit. And in that moment, as we know, everything changed.

44:42

I went from darkness to light, from deception to truth, truth that God loved me and that truth set me free.

44:48

So immediately. I was, I believe, delivered from my 24 year addiction to drugs and alcohol, never to touch it again after that day.

45:00

And praise the Lord. You understand that, my brother? Yes. And I instantly laid down and was delivered from my own false identity and delivered into the true identity of who

45:13

I was created to be in Christ Jesus and and now identified. In Christ and with Christ, instead of identifying as anything outside of that.

45:25

So I brought all of me to all of him and left with him dwelling in me only.

45:34

And what's really beautiful about that is that my girlfriend at the time did the same thing. So we walked into church as lovers and girlfriends, and we left as sisters in Christ, never to be with each other again in any way, shape or form in that ungodly identity.

45:55

And when we got home, it wasn't like, oh, my goodness, I'm going to miss you as my girlfriend. What do we do?

46:01

This is this is horrible. We were so excited when we got home because we owned a home together. We were like, this is awesome.

46:07

God is real. He loves us. I moved in almost immediately into the spare bedroom and then just started devouring the word of God.

46:17

I knew the word of God was was where I was going to find the truth of who he was.

46:25

And so I got saved in January, read through the whole Bible by June, read through the New Testament again by the end of the year.

46:32

And I've been devouring God's word ever since. You know, it says in in Jeremiah 15, 16, it says your words were found and I ate them.

46:41

And your word was to me the joy and rejoicing of my heart for I'm called by your name. Oh, Lord, God of hosts.

46:48

So, yeah. Oh, goodness. His word is Psalm 107.

46:53

I don't know which verse says that he sent his word and healed them and delivered them from all of their destructions.

47:01

And that's exactly what he did for both myself and my girlfriend at the time.

47:06

And she's still walking with the Lord. She's a missionary. Wow. Yeah, she she

47:12

I can't say much about it, but she has she does missions work in other countries that where if she gets caught with what she does, there's a chance she might not come home.

47:26

And so that's what happens when when you really come and meet the Lord for who he is, everything changes.

47:33

And so that's why I no longer carry any type of my old identity.

47:39

There is no there is no side B gay Christian for for Patty Height.

47:45

There's not even ex -gay Christian for Patty Height, because that would mean that I was actually gay.

47:52

And I don't believe God creates anybody homosexually. I don't believe there is a homosexual orientation.

48:00

I believe that we're created, as Genesis chapter one says, he created them in his own image, male and female.

48:06

He's created them and said, be fruitful and multiplying anything outside of that in behavior or identity is,

48:13

I believe, to be sinful. Amen. So I am not an ex -gay Christian. I am someone who was once dead that is now alive.

48:21

I am someone that was living and walking in my sin that is now forgiven of that sin.

48:27

And I have less and less of a desire to sin, even though I do still sin. I get convicted now when

48:34

I sin. And as soon as I recognize it, I bring it before the Lord in repentance.

48:39

And I am I am free from the shame of that. So the freedom that I have in Christ Jesus now is is greater than the freedom that I thought

48:50

I once walked in when I when I said I had the freedom to identify as gay or I had the freedom to present as masculine.

48:58

That wasn't freedom. That was deception. And the Lord delivered me from that deception into his marvelous light, into his truth.

49:06

And that truth has set me free. Amen for all. Amen. Yes, I misspoke earlier when

49:12

I called you a former lesbian. You are actually just somebody who formerly lived in the lifestyle of a lesbian.

49:19

But homosexuality, as you seem to be pointing out here, is not a state of being.

49:26

It is it's not a category of a human. It is a sinful desire and activity if it is brought to fruition.

49:35

But it is not like you can categorize somebody as a homosexual, like you could categorize somebody as an

49:41

Italian or a Spaniard or a Norwegian or an or an

49:46

Englishman or so on. It's it is a wicked desire that leads to physical activity, which will eventually lead to hell, if not repented of.

49:56

Am I stating that correctly, in your opinion? Yes, if you're born in Italian, you die in Italian.

50:03

So that's that's pretty much it. Before I go to our midway break and then when we return, perhaps

50:14

Pastor Eric has some questions. And we already do have listeners waiting to have their questions asked and answered.

50:21

But I wanted you to clarify something about your desires.

50:26

I remember seeing in the one of the videos I watched of you giving your testimony, somebody from the audience asked if you still were attracted to women.

50:38

And you said with a big, rejoicing smile that you're attracted to women, but not sexually.

50:45

You're attracted to women in a godly way that has nothing to do with sex. And I was wondering how quickly that that total departure of that lust that you once had, when did that how long did it take for that to occur?

51:09

And did it occur instantly? I know that with different people, the repentance process is not identical, especially when it comes to the thoughts and desires that we struggle with.

51:23

But how quickly did that just completely vanish? And also for your at that time girlfriend?

51:31

It's a little bit of an extensive answer. Do we have time before the break? It would probably be best if we took the break first and then had you give the answer then.

51:42

And so let me just remind our listeners, if you do have a question for Patty Height, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail dot com.

51:52

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail dot com. As always, give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence.

51:59

But if you're asking about a personal and private matter, like several of our listeners waiting to have their questions asked and answered are, they're sending in their questions anonymously.

52:09

You can do that, too. But if it's a general question, just give us your first name, city and state and country of residence.

52:15

Don't go away. By the way, folks, let me remind you, this is the longer than normal break. So please be patient with us, because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1

52:24

FM in Lake City, Florida, requires of us a longer break in the middle of the show because the FCC requires of them to localize

52:31

Iron Sharp and Zion Radio geographically to Lake City, Florida. And they do so with their own public service announcements and other local things that they air while we simultaneously air our globally heard commercials.

52:43

So please use this time wisely. Write down as much of the contact information as you possibly can for as many of our advertisers as you can so that you can more frequently and successfully respond to our advertisers.

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Keep in mind, folks, Iron Sharp and Zion Radio cannot exist without the financial support of our advertisers.

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So please try to respond to them. And when you cannot respond in any way that involves money, if you can't afford to buy anything or use their services, at least thank them for sponsoring the show.

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And that should go a long way to keep our advertisers happy and convinced that they are not spending their money in vain by advertising with us.

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So please at least thank them and send in your questions to Patty Height to Chris Arnson at Gmail dot com.

53:29

We'll be right back. Don't go away. The Mid -Atlantic Reformation Society presents the future of Christendom 2023, the gospel at war.

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September 15th to the 16th in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania, featuring Dr. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries.

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Dr. Gregory Coles, author of Single Gay Christian, a personal journey of faith and sexual identity.

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The debate topic is gay Christian, a biblically acceptable identity for a member of Christ's church.

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So come join us for the sixth future of Christendom conference. The event will take place at Spooky Nook Sports in Mannheim, Pennsylvania, and will run from Friday evening through all day

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It's such a blessing to hear from Iron Sharpens Iron radio listeners from all over the world.

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Here's Joe Riley, a listener in Ireland who wants you to know about a guest on the show he really loves hearing interviewed

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Dr. Joe Moore Graf. I'm Joe Riley, a faithful Iron Sharpens Iron radio listener here in a tie in County Kildare, Ireland.

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Going back to 2005, one of my very favorite guests on Iron Sharpens Iron is

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an enormous favor of incalculable value because they bring back into print lost treasures from the past dating back to the 16th century

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So go to solid -ground -books .com and make sure you mention Chris Orenson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

01:09:26

Before I return to Patty Hite and Pastor Eric Mosman for our discussion today,

01:09:31

I just have a couple of very important announcements to make. Folks, if you love this show and you don't want it to disappear,

01:09:37

I'm just urging you please to go to ironsharpensironradio .com, click support, then click click to donate now.

01:09:43

You could donate instantly with a debit or credit card. If you prefer advertising, if you want to advertise for your church, your parachurch ministry, a special event you're having, well send me an email to chrisorenson at gmail .com

01:10:00

and put advertising in the subject line. We are just as much urgently in need of your advertising dollars as we are in your donations.

01:10:09

Always keep in mind, folks, that I never want anybody in our audience to give your own church less money than you're ordinarily giving your church on the

01:10:20

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01:10:29

Please do not do that. Also, if you're really struggling to survive and make ends meet, please wait until you're back on your feet and more stable financially before you send us a gift.

01:10:41

The Bible is clear that we are to use our finances primarily to support our church and our family, and providing for my radio show is obviously not a command of God, but if you love the show and you don't want it to disappear and you do have extra money above and beyond your ability to provide for church and family, you have extra money for benevolent, recreational, or trivial purposes, please share some of that money with us if you really love the show and don't want it to disappear.

01:11:06

Go to irontreppanzionradio .com, click support, then click click to donate now, and for those of you who prefer snail mail, there will also be a physical address that appears on your screen where you can mail your checks made payable to irontreppanzionradio .com.

01:11:20

I also want to announce, especially due to our subject matter today, that on Friday, October 13th, you should mark your calendars for my interview with Rosaria Butterfield, who returns to irontreppanzionradio .com

01:11:36

to discuss her brand new book, Five Lies of Our Anti -Christian Age, so please mark your calendars and tune in to that on Friday, October 13th, 4 to 6 p .m.

01:11:48

Eastern Time. Also, if you are a man in ministry leadership, Iron Shepherd Zion Radio is having our next biannual free pastor's luncheon on Thursday, October 5th, 11 a .m.

01:12:01

to 2 p .m. at Church of the Living Christ in Loisville, Pennsylvania.

01:12:07

This is a church in Perry County, Pennsylvania, and not only will you have free admission to this event if you're a man in ministry leadership, and not only will you be fed for free and not only will you be able to enjoy an opportunity for rest, relaxation, fun, and fellowship with colleagues in ministry, some that you likely have never met and some that perhaps are old friends and you can rekindle an old friendship, but on top of all of that, every person attending will receive a heavy sack of free brand new books, personally selected by me and donated by Christian publishers all over the

01:12:45

United States and United Kingdom, so you can't beat that. I hope you register, and you can do so by sending me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com

01:12:54

and put pastor's luncheon on the subject line.

01:13:00

And last but not least, if you are not a member of a biblically faithful, Christ -honoring, theologically sound, doctrinally solid church like Tree of Life Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, well,

01:13:12

I have extensive lists spanning the globe of biblically faithful churches, and I've helped many people in our audience all over the planet earth find churches, sometimes even within just a couple of minutes from where they live, and they didn't even know they existed.

01:13:25

So if you're in that predicament, you do not have a biblically faithful church home, send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com

01:13:31

and put I need a church in the subject line. That's also the email address where you can send in a question to Patti Height, and we are talking about her testimony of being rescued from her enslavement to same -sex attraction, gender confusion, and a lesbian lifestyle, and her foundation of a ministry called

01:13:50

Out of Egypt Ministries, and her upcoming speaking engagement at Tree of Life Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, October 6th and 7th, which is a

01:13:58

Friday and Saturday. Send in your questions to chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com,

01:14:04

and give us your first name, at least city and state and country of residence, and only remain anonymous if your question is personal and private.

01:14:11

And before I go to any of those questions, and any question that Pastor Eric may have, pick up where you left off if you could.

01:14:18

We were asking you about your abandonment or the the the departing from your heart and mind of sexual attraction to women, and you were about to explain exactly how that took place in your life.

01:14:42

Yes, so when I first came to recognize

01:14:48

Jesus as my Lord and Savior and give him my life, I entered into what we might call the honeymoon phase, where I don't think my feet, well actually

01:14:59

I don't know if my feet have even touched the ground since those days, because he's just that good, and it's just that exciting to live in Christ with whom we live and move and have our being, but I thought everything that was my life before January 19th, 2003, was done and over, and I wouldn't have to worry about anything again after that because God was real, and he loved me, and my life was so incredibly exciting in him now, until one weekend

01:15:33

I went to continue playing in this women's flag football league that I was a part of, drove there with the woman who was now my ex -girlfriend, and as we were driving home she's like,

01:15:47

Patty, I have to tell you something, and I'm thinking, oh what, you really liked that end zone catch that I had at the end of the game?

01:15:55

It's like, yeah, no, that's not it. I have to tell you that I recognized you were flirting with that girl from the other team, and I'm like, what, are you kidding me?

01:16:07

And she's like, look, I'm telling you, I know you, nobody knows you as good as I do, I know you were flirting with her, and I was so mad,

01:16:14

I'm like, how could you even say that? We're saved, there's nothing there anymore, and so I just, you know, kind of metaphorically with my hands on my hips,

01:16:23

I'm like, well, you know what, when I get home, I'm going to pray and ask God to show me, and she's like, yeah, I think you should, and so I went home, and I prayed, and I asked the

01:16:32

Lord to show me if I was flirting, and I, in fact, was. The Lord showed me that I was, but the thing is, is he showed me in such a gentle way, and as the

01:16:44

Lord was ministering to my heart, he said that that was just behavior that I'd had for years and years and years, and I didn't even recognize that I was doing that, and to not worry, just to continue to come to him, and as he shows me things, acknowledge the truth of what he's showing me, and lay it back down at his feet, and he'll bring healing, and what now

01:17:09

I actually kind of call that all these years later is reveal and heal, and that's what the

01:17:14

Lord does. He reveals these things to us. We recognize them to be true in whatever aspect they come, and then we bring that back to him in prayer, and he releases us of that, or he brings healing through that, and so after that day that he allowed me to see that that was there,

01:17:34

I don't have any recognition, or the Lord never brought that to me again in that sense that I was continuing in that behavior, so I laid it before him and was released of that.

01:17:48

Now, there was a season where the Lord was addressing my gender. That was very, very hard.

01:17:54

The gender was a lot more frightening for me to fully come to a deep understanding of where it came from, and what it was, and then surrender that fully trust the

01:18:06

Lord in it, and so I remember being saved a couple years, and the

01:18:11

Lord spoke to my heart and said, I want you to ask me what it is to be a woman, and I was like, oh gosh, if I ask the

01:18:19

Lord what it is to be a woman, he's going to show me, and my first thought was I'm going to fail miserably at it, because I have no idea what it is to be a woman, so it was based in fear, but I so it's like, okay, if the

01:18:30

Lord wants me to pray this, I'm going to pray it, because one beautiful thing he just really blessed me with was the

01:18:37

God gave me the desire to be obedient, the strength to be obedient, and then when

01:18:43

I was, he blessed me through that obedience, so I'm like, all right, I'm going to pray. I lay flat in my face.

01:18:49

I was already living out of the house with my ex and living in my own apartment, and I said, God, you asked me to pray and asked what it is for you to show me what it is to be a woman, so here we go.

01:18:59

Lord, show me what it is to be a woman, and I couldn't say the word woman. I was so afraid, and so I'm like, well,

01:19:08

I can't say it, so I'm going to spell it. Lord, will you show me what it is to be a w -o -m, and I just started crying, and I'm like, oh,

01:19:17

Lord, I don't know how to do this, and so I had made some really close friendships with other women in the church, and when

01:19:25

I couldn't pray it, I went to them and asked them to pray that prayer for me, and so they did.

01:19:32

We were all weeping, and they came before the Lord with me there and said, Lord, you know,

01:19:38

Patty's desire is to fulfill that prayer and to actually have you fulfill that prayer, and so they prayed in that moment for the

01:19:47

Lord to show me what it was to be a woman, and they continued praying that, I'm sure, for very many days, weeks, months, and years after that, so that I can now these 20, more than 20 years later say, not only do

01:20:00

I know what it is to be a woman, I love being a woman. I'm thriving in my femininity.

01:20:07

I'm not embarrassed by it. I get to be a woman and feminine and love it without having to be what

01:20:16

I mistakenly thought was, you know, covered my head in a bonnet and a dress from shoulders to toe and knowing how to, you know, make a cake or a meal or whatever my misunderstanding was of what it was to be a woman.

01:20:33

I love who I am in Christ Jesus as a woman in my femininity, and it's one of the most beautiful experiences

01:20:43

I've had in my life, so that was a long answer, but someone needed to hear that, so come to the

01:20:50

Lord with all that you have in your sexual desires, in your sexual identity, in your gender confusion, in your gender identity.

01:20:57

Trust the Lord with it, and what he brings to you in his truth through the power of his word and the person, the

01:21:06

Godhead of the Holy Spirit, the Lord will give you more than you could ever even ask or think, because it'll be truth, and again,

01:21:16

I just have to say it's the truth that sets us free. Amen, and the way you answered that audience member in the video when the person asked you if you were still attracted to women, and you said, yes,

01:21:29

I am, but not sexually, and you were with a big smile on your face, this has really deepened the relationships you have with women and made them better than they ever were, because they are pure, and there is no ulterior motive, there's no sinful aspect of the attraction.

01:21:48

If you could just explain it a little bit more. Well, amen, and yes to that. Women are awesome, and I get to know women in their awesomeness now for the way

01:22:01

God has created them, and all the beauty of what it is to be a woman, and so the more

01:22:06

I got to know women in a godly way, and the more I was touched by women like an arm around me or a hug or arms looped together, the more

01:22:18

I was in friendships with women and being touched with godly women the right way, the less of a desire

01:22:24

I had to be intimate with a woman in an ungodly, in an unnatural way, because I knew the healthy, godly way, and because of that, me trying to find it through my own sinful way was no longer a part of my life.

01:22:46

And so the desire is like completely absent, the same -sex desire? I would imagine, so I don't think about it, so I don't really think, do

01:22:56

I have same -sex, it hasn't crossed my mind in years, so yes,

01:23:01

I would say that that is gone. Hallelujah, and before I go to any listener question,

01:23:08

Pastor Eric, do you have a question of your own? Yes, I do.

01:23:16

I swapped out my microphone, so hopefully it's working whenever I first came on. It wasn't working.

01:23:23

Man, there's so many directions, I'd love to take the conversation, but I think we'll have some time with that, but on the radio, pastorally,

01:23:32

I'm going to ask, a lot of people are accused of not being welcoming to the homosexual community, open to them or helpful to them.

01:23:45

One, do you believe that narrative? Two, what would you say to pastors who want to be able to meet the gospel, the gospel of freedom that you're sharing with that homosexual community?

01:23:59

What would you give pastors? Yes, great question,

01:24:04

Pastor Eric, and you are cutting in and out a little bit still, but I think I got the gist of your question.

01:24:10

Yes, I do believe in years past, the church does have some harsh behavior towards those who identify as LGBT +, but I do believe now that the church is caring more in the sense of becoming better equipped on how to minister to people right where they are in their sexual and gender identity, because we can't stick our heads in the anymore.

01:24:42

It's one of the most prevalent things, one of the most prevalent discussions in every aspect of our life in this country and throughout most of the world, and so I do believe the church can be better equipped in what it is to bring both grace and truth to people who don't have their

01:25:11

Christ identity, people who are still under Adam instead of in Christ, so to speak, and so I believe

01:25:22

I missed part of your question in that, so I'm trying to understand what it was with only part of your words.

01:25:31

I do believe that one of the best ways to minister to people is to speak that truth to them, and that truth is going to be heard most likely in our church, in the actual building of the church, and so we have to be willing to invite those who look different, act different, and identify different into our church so that they will hear the word of truth, because there's no truth left anywhere, at least in our country, except in Christ Jesus and in the word of God.

01:26:12

It's not in our schools. It's not in the medical field anymore. It's not university. It's not government.

01:26:18

Laws are changing, so we're literally the only truth carriers anywhere, and so we have to invite people from the

01:26:25

LGBT community into our church so that they can hear the truth and let the truth make that big impact on them, so in the sense of we're not there to fix people.

01:26:38

We can't fix people. We're not called to fix people. We're called to love the Lord our God with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength and to love our neighbor as ourself and to preach the word in season and out of season so that if God perhaps will grant them repentance, as it says in 2nd

01:26:55

Timothy chapter 2, it says that we're to come with humility and patience and correcting those who are in opposition if God perhaps will grant them repentance so that they may know the truth and escape the snares of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will, so I believe we do that through patient evangelism, through the truth of the word of God and speaking the word of God from the pulpit, not cowering to using a pronoun hospitality or preferred pronouns to build a bridge, but we are to speak the truth from the pulpit and from our homes and from our offices and then trust

01:27:39

God. Do that with grace and in humility and trust that God, if he so chooses to grant that person repentance, will do it as his word.

01:27:49

Amen, and I know that you share my view, which is very obvious, painfully obvious, that whereas the church might have years ago been totally insensitive and devoid of compassion when bringing the gospel to those enslaved by homosexuality, today we have an opposite problem that is equally dangerous where we have professing

01:28:21

Christians and pastors and denominations catering to the wickedness of those who are homosexual by candy coating the severity of the situation that they are in and by giving a message that is devoid of the call to repentance, a devoid that is devoid of the warning of wrath and any of that.

01:28:49

Recently I saw a video of Rosaria Butterfield, who

01:28:55

I mentioned earlier, who was being interviewed promoting her new book. She said something very profound,

01:29:01

I believe. She said, your job is not to see sin from the point of view of the sinner.

01:29:08

That empathy will not help people like the person I used to be, and it will kill you.

01:29:14

Your job is to stand outside all of the feelings and all of the muck and throw a rope.

01:29:22

I thought that was very beautifully said. I don't know if you share my opinion on that, but I really think that was a profound statement by her.

01:29:30

But going back to what I was saying, I know that you are adamantly opposed to the whole side

01:29:37

A, side B Christianity concept that has made homosexuality more palatable to many people in the evangelical church, and if you could explain those errors and why you dismiss them.

01:29:56

Well, and yes, I love Rosaria Butterfield. She is so beautifully eloquent with her words.

01:30:02

God has definitely gifted her, and so I'm excited to listen to your interview with her

01:30:08

October 13th. I just simply, as simply as I can put it,

01:30:17

I cannot bring what I brought to the cross as part of my repentance.

01:30:23

I cannot pick any part of that back up with me and say, well, I repent over this, but it's part of who

01:30:32

I am, so I'm going to carry it back with me and keep it in my pocket, keep it as an identifier, and live life in that identity but not carry out its behavior.

01:30:44

In its simplicity, it just doesn't make sense to me. If I were to carry any part of my gay identity with me after I came to Christ, I guarantee

01:30:56

I'd be back living that life again, because part of the identity is part of the draw into that community, and when

01:31:09

I was in the LGBT community, it was a really, at the time, it was a great community for me to be in.

01:31:15

They were my family, and for the most part, it was a beautiful place to be, and so I wouldn't want to, in my identity, just even outside of the sin of it, but it would be so confusing for not only my friends that were still part of that community, but also for my church friends.

01:31:41

It was like, well, wait, who are you? Are you with us as the LGBT community, or are you with those church folks over there that say it's sinful?

01:31:51

To me, it's sitting on the fence. It just isn't coming to my heart right now.

01:31:56

It's as Jesus tells us in the book of Revelation. Are you hot or are you cold? Because if you're lukewarm, you can't really have any part of me, and to me, that just seems very lukewarm.

01:32:08

What I bring to the Lord and what the Lord has asked me to bring before Him in my sin behavior and in my sin identity,

01:32:14

He gets it all, because He's worthy, because He's holy, and He's worth it.

01:32:21

Who do I think I am that I would carry any part of my identity that He calls the behavior of that identity to be sinful?

01:32:31

It just simply does not make sense to me. We do have an anonymous listener who has a fairly lengthy question and also comments, and I think that it's so important I want to read the whole thing.

01:32:47

What would you suggest that I do with the situation of my daughter being thousands of miles away living with somebody, and I don't want to form a relationship with that person due to the friendly atmosphere that would develop just what we talked about, which would then lead me to getting too comfortable myself, let alone the other woman.

01:33:17

I don't want them to think that I accept their life choices in any way, and being a mom,

01:33:24

I would tend to be vulnerable to mothering, and I fear being unable to show my disdain to a greater degree, and I need your assistance and counsel.

01:33:36

So I guess to decipher what she's saying here is that she has a conflict, and maybe you understood the same thing that I did by reading this, a conflict by, on the one hand, wanting to make it clear to her daughter and her daughter's girlfriend that she is not at all accepting their sin, and she is in a dilemma about not being too cold and distant and dismissive of even the existence of the other woman.

01:34:19

I don't know if you heard the same thing in that long question comment that I read, but perhaps you could just pick up where I left off there.

01:34:30

Yes, yes, and sister, I want to thank you for writing in and asking your question, and thank you for being here listening, and I hear your mama heart, and it matters, and so please know that when we do end this interview,

01:34:49

I will be taking time to be praying over all the questions that came in, meaning the people who sent in the questions, so I will be praying for you, and if you go to my website, outofegyptministries .org,

01:35:01

there is a prayer icon there that you can fill out that prayer icon with your situation first names only, and I have a prayer team, quite a large number of women in North Carolina that,

01:35:17

I think it's every other week they get together and they pray over all the prayer requests, so you will not be walking through this alone, but as I was hearing

01:35:27

Chris bring forth the question, my first thought was, if you're not friendly to her, who will be?

01:35:37

If you're not friendly to her, you have an inroad to this particular woman that not just anybody out there that's a

01:35:46

Christian does, but in that, I believe you do need to pray and ask the

01:35:52

Lord to show you how much a part of her life, your girlfriend's or your daughter's girlfriend, how much a part of her life the

01:35:59

Lord wants you to be involved in, because what I often tell people, sometimes we remember those quick little quips, so what

01:36:08

I'll tell people is, let who you are point to who he is. Let who you are point to who he is, so I would pray and ask the

01:36:18

Lord if he would lead you into a friendly relationship with your daughter's girlfriend, if you would stand strong and healthy in who you are in Christ, that just might be the only thing this woman sees or this young lady sees as who

01:36:37

Christ actually is, because it's through kindness, the kindness of who God is that leads us to repentance, so that's something that you privately have to pray about, and the scripture that came to my heart as you were, as Chris was reading this question, is in Luke chapter 15.

01:36:58

We know this is the parable of the lost sheep, the lost coin, and the lost son, and every part of Luke 15 is in my

01:37:07

Bible written in red, which indicates it's the words of Jesus, except the first three verses, and so verse one of Luke 15 says, then all the tax collectors and the sinners drew near to Jesus to hear him, so I have to pause and think on that.

01:37:24

Why would tax collectors and sinners draw near to Jesus to hear him? Well, it's because Jesus drew near to them, and so if we cross -reference

01:37:33

Luke 15 1 to Matthew 9 9 through 13, it's when we see

01:37:39

Jesus actually meeting Matthew, the tax collector, so Matthew 9 verse 9 says, and Jesus passed on from there, and he saw a man named

01:37:47

Matthew sitting at the tax office, and Jesus said to him, follow me, so Matthew arose and followed

01:37:53

Jesus. Now, it happened as Jesus sat at the table in the house that, behold, many tax collectors and sinners came and sat down with Jesus and his disciples, so Jesus was calling

01:38:08

Matthew to himself, and in that, Jesus went to Matthew's house with Matthew's friends, his sinners and other tax collectors, and not only did

01:38:18

Jesus go, but he had his disciples come with him, so Jesus didn't say to his disciples, look, these people are, they're pretty big sinners, so you better stay away, let me handle this one on my own.

01:38:32

Jesus was teaching his disciples how to, I believe, love people in their sins so that when they see the and the beauty of who

01:38:42

Jesus is, they no longer stay in that sin, but back in Luke 15 verse 2 says, and the

01:38:50

Pharisees and the scribes complained, saying, this man, meaning Jesus, this man receives sinners and eats with them, so if we continue in our story back in Matthew 9, we continue in verse 11, and it says, when the

01:39:05

Pharisees saw it, meaning Jesus and his disciples being with these sinners, when the

01:39:10

Pharisees saw it, they said to his disciples, why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners, and when

01:39:18

Jesus heard that, he said to them, those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick, and verse 13, but go and learn what this means,

01:39:28

I desire mercy and not sacrifice, for I did not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance, and so I believe that, again, let who we are point to who he is, and we might be the very person that points people to Jesus by being with them or spending enough time with them to get to know them, and then having that inroad to speak the truth of who the

01:39:56

Lord Jesus Christ is in the fullness of who he is with both grace and truth.

01:40:01

And I'm assuming you would agree that loving, pouring love on someone, even someone who is involved in overtly, scandalously wicked behavior, pouring love on them does not require that we give any indication that we are condoning what they're doing, am

01:40:26

I right? Loving someone in their sin isn't condoning their sin, it's loving them in spite of their sin, which is exactly what

01:40:38

Jesus did for us. And I'm assuming you would believe that in this listener's case, if she is going to demonstrate openly compassion and love towards the girlfriend of the daughter, that when the timing is right,

01:41:04

I'm not saying that she should delay doing this at all, but I mean in a conversation and during certain circumstances and occasions, you have to remember to eventually bring up the fact that the

01:41:19

Lord is not pleased with this behavior and the seriousness of it. And somehow,

01:41:25

I'm not saying that every word at a dinner table needs to be a word of condemnation or something, but there needs to be times when you are making it clear that God does not want them to continue with that way, just as you would if you had somebody in your home that you knew was a drug addict or, you know, involved in—and in my case,

01:41:49

I was formerly a drunkard, as I shared with you before the show. If I wasn't put under church discipline,

01:41:54

I don't think I would be alive right now. And that involved elders that cared more about my eternal life and my physical life than my feelings.

01:42:05

And I thank God for them, and I thank God what they did by putting me under church discipline over a decade ago, which led me to enter into a rehab facility.

01:42:15

But am I making sense here that some people just want to do the—what they would consider the loving part, and they don't want to do the hard part because they want to spare the feelings of those that they are seeking to love?

01:42:31

Am I making sense? Yes, and not only spare the feelings of those they love, but spare the possibility of rejection by sharing the truth in love.

01:42:43

And so, you know, I would pray a woman who wrote the question said—I believe she said there was a concern because she loves her daughter so much that she did have a concern that she might kind of cower to maybe the gay identity instead of the truth of what the

01:43:02

Bible says because of her love for her daughter. So I get that. That's why I said ultimately you need to pray and ask the

01:43:08

Lord what to do in this situation. But when we minister to someone and we speak truth to them—again, 1

01:43:14

Corinthians 13, I think it's verse 6 says, love does not rejoice in iniquity but rejoices in the truth.

01:43:21

If your daughter was raised in the church, meaning if you have been a Christian for a long time and your daughter was raised in the church and she's gone on to live her own life in her own identity, your daughter knows what the

01:43:33

Bible says about homosexuality and your daughter would probably have told—may have told her girlfriend that her parents or her mom is a, you know, fundamental evangelical

01:43:46

Christian and just hates the gay community or whatever. So, you know, possibly speaking badly about you, mom, as a

01:43:57

Christian, and then if her girlfriend meets you and sees how kind and generous and loving and gentle you are, she might actually think, wait,

01:44:06

I thought you said your mom was this, but I'm actually seeing her as this, and it might start to form questions in her heart like, wow,

01:44:15

Christians are nice and they are kind. Now, this—I'm just making this up as a possible situation, but when we share the truth of who

01:44:26

God is with someone, I say start with Jesus, not start with their sexual sin, because a person's heart needs to change before their identity will, and our heart only changes in Christ Jesus.

01:44:38

Well, we have to go to our final break, and when we come back, we will hear from Ted in Moundsville, Alabama, and we will get as many other questioners in the program as we possibly can.

01:44:53

Don't go away, we'll be right back. The Mid -Atlantic Reformation Society presents

01:45:00

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Dr. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries will be debating Dr. Gregory Coles, author of Single Gay Christian, A Personal Journey of Faith and Sexual Identity.

01:45:24

The debate topic, Is Gay Christian a Biblically Acceptable Identity for a Member of Christ's Church?

01:45:30

So come join us for the 6th Future of Christendom Conference. The event will take place at Spooky Nook Sports in Mannheim, Pennsylvania, and will run from Friday evening through all day

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01:45:47

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01:45:55

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Joseph Piper, President Emeritus and Professor of Systematic and Applied Theology at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary.

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Every Christian who's serious about the Deformed Faith and the Westminster Standards should have and use the eight -volume commentary on the theology and ethics of the

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01:46:43

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Thanks for helping to keep Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio on the air. Welcome back.

01:53:36

We have Ted in Moundsville, Alabama, who says, early in the interview, you talked about identifiers, i .e.,

01:53:45

the way people are addressed. In a similar vein, I am particularly vexed by the term sodomite being applied to modern homosexuals.

01:53:55

The pushback I usually receive is that this is the biblical term, sometimes stressing the the pronounced thee as it as if to assert that it is in fact the only biblical term and therefore the only acceptable term.

01:54:11

But I would only agree that it is a that it is a biblical term and then only in the

01:54:19

King James Version and the NKJV, and that is not particularly useful today because it has become associated with Christians who are unnecessarily antagonistic towards those who are caught up in this sin.

01:54:34

What is your take on the use of this term? And again, he's speaking of the term sodomite.

01:54:41

Thank you, Tim. It's actually Ted. Ted, for joining us with your question.

01:54:50

I don't hear that term used when I go to church. I certainly don't use that term when

01:54:57

I'm explaining things, and I don't think it would.

01:55:08

I do know that in the King James Version, we can see these words.

01:55:15

However, I think it's where both grace and truth come in.

01:55:21

If you're hearing that word coming from a pulpit, I personally would go and have a conversation with the pastor and just ask the pastor in a gentle way why he is using that term.

01:55:38

Is he trying to express what the actual physical action, sexual action is of those engaging in this type of sexual behavior, or is he trying to be a bee in a bonnet and get people buzzed up and bit over this particular verse or verses in the

01:56:02

Bible? I guess in a nutshell, I'm saying I would talk to the pastor and ask to hear his heart on the situation and then go from there.

01:56:10

One thing to add, my own two cents, but isn't it also dangerous to use candy -coated terms that make a sin more palatable?

01:56:24

For instance, I was a drunkard. I don't tell people I used to be a wine connoisseur. We have to be equally careful because, for instance, in the

01:56:35

Greek, in the New Testament, I believe the term that Paul used was male penetrator.

01:56:41

It wasn't intended to be a flowery compliment. You know what I'm saying? We have to be somewhat careful not to go the other way.

01:56:49

Yes, I hear what you're saying, but I'm curious if what Ted is talking about is people using it to really pack a punch in what is being said because I don't think a homosexual is a soft term.

01:57:10

I still think the word homosexual or synechoidi and these different words that we see in the

01:57:16

Bible speak at the severity of the sin in and of themselves.

01:57:24

So, I don't believe it's lessening the sinfulness by using homosexuals.

01:57:32

Right. Well, I want you in about two minutes time to please summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today.

01:57:40

And I definitely know I want you back if you're able to and desirous of coming back because I think there's a lot more we could talk about with the side

01:57:47

A, side B, fallacy, and so on. But if you could just summarize what you want to say today.

01:57:56

I believe that we have an opportunity as Christians to really show the heart of God, the compassion of God, and the truth of God by the way we speak and act around those inside the church and outside the church and realize that by the grace of God, there go

01:58:16

I. Ephesians 2 says,

01:58:22

And you he made alive who were dead in trespasses and sin, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, in verse 3, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lust of our flesh, fulfilling the desire of the flesh and of mine, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others in verse 4.

01:58:51

But God, who is rich in mercy because of his great love, which which he loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ.

01:59:01

By grace, you've been saved. And it continues on because I could read forever. But I think what

01:59:06

I want to leave everyone with is we have to remember that we were once dead in our trespasses and sins.

01:59:13

Amen. And we are only made alive in Christ Jesus. And it is God who calls us unto himself.

01:59:19

And so please look at people not as gay or straight or this or that or the other.

01:59:26

It's either dead in our sins or alive in Christ. And if we see people dead in their sins, we pray for them and we point them to the only one that can bring them life.

01:59:37

And that is Christ Jesus. And we do that with grace and truth. Hallelujah. Amen. Well, I want to remind our listeners that for more details about Patty Height's ministry, go to outofegypministries .org,

01:59:50

outofegypministries .org. Don't forget about Tree of Life Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, that is hosting

01:59:57

Patty's upcoming conference in Carlisle, Pennsylvania on October 6th and the 7th, which is a

02:00:04

Friday and Saturday. For more details, go to tlccarlisle .church,

02:00:09

t -l -c -c -a -r -l -i -s -l -e .church.

02:00:15

I want to thank you so much, Patty, for being such a superb guest. I look forward to having you back in the program. I want to thank you too,

02:00:21

Pastor Eric Mosman, for acting as a co -host today. I look forward to having you back in the program as well.

02:00:27

I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.