Brad Isbell Interview

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My name is Mike Abendroth, and as you listeners know, I like to have guests on Wednesday.

Monday is a recorded sermon that I preached at Bethlehem Bible Church. We're in the book of Hebrews now, Hebrews 9, and looking at the high priesthood of the

Lord Jesus Christ. Tuesdays, I talk with my associate pastor, Pastor Steve Cooley, about issues in the church.

Thursdays and Fridays, it's usually me kind of practicing on you as guinea pigs when it comes to my sermons, but we talk about other things as well.

But I especially like Wednesdays because I have authors, theologians, podcasters, ex -Southern

Baptists, all kinds of people, and so I think we can put all those monikers on one person today and welcome

Chortles Weekly back to No Compromise Radio, aka Brad Isbell. Welcome back, Brad.

Well, it's nice to be here, and I can't be called a theologian or a public intellectual or a public theologian, but I prefer to go with private ineffectual.

Okay, good. Well, let's get some of this stuff out of the way first, Brad. If they want to follow you on Twitter, it's at Chortles Weekly, not like every day of the week or month, but weekly as in not strong.

Tell our listeners again why Chortles Weekly. Oh, well, it's all because of social media.

Years ago, I was interacting with a lady in our church on Facebook, and she said,

LOL, and I sort of resolved never to say that, so to respond,

I thought, what's the opposite of LOL? And that would be barely audible chortle, so I replied

BAC, and that didn't catch on, but Chortles Weekly, that became my handle.

And your little icon, little avatar, has a side profile of Calvin, and then there's what looks like a

Bob Marley, Reggae, Peter Tosh kind of hat on top. What is that? Well, that's a

Rosticap, and that's to show how woke I am, and I'm looking left as well, not right.

Oh, see, that's important. I didn't know if it was that original Star Trek series where they had those people that couldn't get along, and some of them had half white faces and half black, but they couldn't get along with the other people that had it reversed.

Remember that show? No, I missed that one. Okay. You also host or co -host

PresbyCast, and it's a podcast, and lots of people ask me, what do you listen to?

And I tell them I listen to Heidelcast, I listen to Chris Gordon, I listen to Credo Podcast, and I listen to PresbyCast.

Could you tell me why I listen? Is there any good reason I should listen to PresbyCast? Total depravity,

I think. We're thoroughly disreputable, but hopefully human in a good way, and we're not trying to sell you anything, and ultimately, we're probably not trying to please or entertain anyone much except ourselves, and some people react to that, some people like that, so we're small time, and we always will be.

Brad, I have to admit that one time I was listening to you guys, and I've listened to every show, and that tells you how my depravity level is.

And I was listening, and you said, well, we have to take a station break, or one of our sponsors are advertisers, and I thought,

I cannot believe they actually have a sponsor. And it was you hawking some kind of funny thing, so I was glad to know that it wasn't really real.

Well, that was probably slope coat. Our imaginary product, it's for the slippery slope that we denominational types find ourselves on.

And some of my, I'll say, my brothers, but my opponents in the

PCA, they hate the slippery slope argument, but I always say, if you don't believe in the slippery slope, ask the guy at the bottom of the ravine covered in gravel and bleeding.

So Brad, that lends us to talk about this very issue. You come from a

Southern Baptist world, and now you're in the PCA, and for the listeners who don't know what the PCA is, it's

Presbyterian Church of America. They probably are familiar with OPC, Orthodox Presbyterian Church, also known as the

Only Perfect Church, and they might not know that there are conservative elements in Presbyterianism.

Maybe they're just used to the Presbyterian Church down the street. Tell our listeners a little bit about the

PCA in general, maybe how it started or anything you want to talk about, and then we'll talk about some specifics and general assembly and motions and stuff like that.

Well, first of all, you alluded to some people don't know anything, but the liberal Presbyterian denomination, that would be what's called the

PCUSA. They've got sort of a funny little red, I think it's red and blue cross, kind of modern with sort of a dove built in.

But if you see that in front of a church or you see the words USA after Presbyterian Church, that's the old what was the old

Northern Liberal Church, which reunited with the Liberal Southern Church, the

PCUS in the right around 1980, late 70s, early 80s.

The conservatives in the Southern Church saw the handwriting on the wall probably as early as the 60s.

And by 1973, they left the PCUS, which is the Southern Mainline Presbyterian Church.

They left the PCUS and formed the PCA in 1973. Now, the

PCA today has about almost 400 ,000 members, which is microscopic in American religion, but much larger than any other conservative

Presbyterian or Reformed denomination in the U .S. The PCA picked up another church called the

RPCES in the in the 80s. That's how it got its college and seminary.

And, you know, it started as a kind of a big tent, although generally conservative, not everyone equally confessional.

We could talk about what that means, but probably has always been a mixed multitude and a tent.

And in the last, oh, 20 years or so, it's gotten broader yet.

But lots of good churches in the PCA, lots of good ministers and a generally very high standard of theological education and theological sophistication, although, you know, practice varies, varies kind of widely.

Brad, I think I'd be interested in knowing this, and if our listeners aren't interested, it doesn't really matter, right?

Because it's my show and I'm talking to you. And tell me why you left the

Southern Baptist Convention. Was it they did a lot of dopey things as an

SBC denomination or local church, or was it you were more, you know what,

I think doctrinally, I see paedo -baptism and some other things, and I'm sure it was both, but can you give me some percentages?

I mean, did one thing lead you to then study the other? How did you make the transition from going from a

Baptist to a Presbyterian? Well, I grew up Southern Baptist in smaller churches, you know, small town church of a hundred and then a larger kind of average

Southern city church of, oh, let's say three, four hundred that I grew up in.

And for a few years I was, as I moved away from my hometown, I attended some

Methodist churches for a while. And then I was actually a member of a very conservative for the

PCUSA church in the right around 1990, early 90s.

Then moved back sort of into the hills and rejoined the

Southern Baptist convention by way of a local church. So from about 1994 to 2004,

I was in a small rural Southern Baptist church. And of course, I started keeping up with the wider issues.

I knew that the conservatives had sort of regained control in the SBC in 1980.

At an organizational or top level, it had become a liberal church in the 60s and 70s.

But that was reversed by cultural and biblical conservatives. So I was keeping an eye on what was happening.

You know, I remember in the 90s, Russell Moore wrote for Baptist Press and was, you know, one of the better voices at that time.

And I would read his articles and the weekly Baptist newspaper in Tennessee, which

I guess they still have. So I kept up with the nominational issues, but I learned that, you know, that the founders of the

Southern Baptist convention back in the 1800s were Calvinists, had a reformed soteriology and learned that helped me to understand a lot of the weird things

I saw in what we would call the invitation system, revivalism, very pragmatic worship.

So I learned I became, you know, a Calvinistic Southern Founders Conference type

Baptist. And then I think, as you should do, if you become a

Calvinist, you begin to be concerned for the order of the church and the worship of the church.

And at some point in the early 2000s, I came to believe that the worship and the ministry, let's say, for instance, wacky youth ministry in the

Southern Baptist churches I knew just wasn't going to be reformed and wasn't going to be something

I could ultimately tolerate. Worship of the church is so important and how it's done.

And so it was really worship issues that drove me to a very conservative, very confessional

PCA church, which has had a history of good ministers for 25, 30 years.

And that's how I ended up there. So it was over worship issues, sacraments, you know, we call them sacraments.

So, you know, baptism, baptism of infants and small children, and then covenant theology, which is really tied to that.

That came later, but I really joined for reasons of worship and order.

Well, for our listeners today, we're talking to Brad Isabel at Chortles Weekly regarding his Twitter handle, and he is a co -host of PresbyCast.

As you were talking about Southern Baptist, Brad, I was thinking about Broadman, Holman, or just Broadman.

And of course, that came from the name from Broadus and Manley. I think that was John Broadus and Basil Manley, some of the founders of the, at least the reformed

Calvinistic type of Southern Baptist. Let's talk a little bit about Presbyterianism. When I used to look at PCA as an outsider, as kind of a no -co -Baptist guy,

I would look at PCA and say, you know, in my mind, there's two general kind of drifts, our factions or our philosophies, our ministries.

It was the kind of the Tim Keller approach or the Ligon Duncan approach. And the

Tim Keller was, you know, redeeming the city, and here's what we have to do methodologically and an exegete culture type of things.

And then the Duncan approach in my mind back in those days, it was exegesis, exposition, we just teach the

Bible verse by verse or the high view of Christ, etc. Correct me if I'm wrong, when

I think of the PCA now, I don't really see those kind of two poles with those two figures, because it seems to me

Duncan has gotten closer to where Keller is, and therefore I don't have those two poles.

Am I reading PCA correctly as an outsider? Well, I don't, I don't think, when you're talking about Ligon Duncan, former pastor of mine is a good, good friend of his going way back when they were in early college and seminary days.

Um, I don't think his theological convictions would have changed, but it was a series of, um, uh, it was at least one.

And I think there was a couple of, um, sort of meeting of the minds at our general assembly, which is our national meeting of, you know, it has about,

I don't know, 3000 people there or something like that with Tim Keller. And, um, Ligon Duncan sat down together and they would talk about things and each would give their perspective and they'd kind of hug at the end and, you know, they sort of legitimized one another and they're both legitimate because they're elders of the church.

But, um, I think because of, um, and I respect Ligon Duncan, but because of his involvement with, um, with the gospel coalition and as head now of, uh, reformed theological seminary system, which has, you know, 10 campuses or so.

He's, um, he's probably not viewed as being, um, as strict a confessionalist and, and churchmen as he used to be.

Although he would, I'm not saying that he's not, but he's, he's, uh, he's playing in a pretty big, uh, you know, pond these days.

And, you know, I think in the old days, when you look back to the PCA in the nineties, it was sort of the

RC scroll, uh, denomination. He was associated with it. Um, but you don't really have, except for Duncan, you don't have any names that come to mind when you think of, um, the, the old line conservative confessionalist, uh, leaders.

I don't, we don't really have any notable leaders on that side. Whereas Tim Keller sort of looms over everything in the

PCA. I thought, I thought it was Kathy. I thought it was Kathy Keller looming over the PCA.

I don't, I don't think I ever said that most, most, most wives have influence over their husbands and she's been very involved in, uh, in the

Redeemer church in New York, and you can read articles to that effect, but, um, yeah,

I couldn't, uh, I don't think, you know, she was on the women's study committee a couple of years ago and, um, but no,

I don't think, uh, I don't think, uh, Kathy Keller is pulling any, pulling our strings. Okay, good.

Well, I guess that was just my kind of like Twitter snark there. Uh, I think it was, I think so. How about, uh, helping me as an outsider think through, uh,

PCA direction. And I guess my question to you, Brad is if things really go well, uh, from the confessional standpoint, conservative standpoint, what's going to happen to the

PCA and if things don't go well, uh, the liberals, the moderates, whatever we want to call them, what will the

PCA look like in 10 years under each of those, uh, scenarios, things go really well or things go

South and, uh, then I have a followup question after that. Well, you know, it seems that the tendency is, is these days is to, to splintering and segregation and people not relating to each other.

And there's certainly a lot of that in the PCA. Uh, I don't think it's, there are theological elements, but there aren't the same theological elements that were at work in the early 20th century.

Uh, we don't have any theological liberals in the PCA. Um, everyone, um, agrees that the

Bible is the authority, but how that plays out is the different, you know, it's, it's the practice more than the doctrine where, um, where we see a lot of variance.

And like I said, we've always been a big tent, uh, sort of a mixed multitude denomination.

So I think the, uh, the best case would be that we would see, um, uh, maybe, uh, some, some pushback against some, uh, some of the perceived, um, deviations in the

PCA today that's got to do with the, uh, same sex attracted Christians.

Um, with, um, yeah, it's just, it's hard. It's such a hard thing to explain, but the differences seem to be more cultural.

And, um, the other six days of the week than they are on what we do on Sunday, although there's a lot of variation in worship, there always has been.

That's nothing new. So if I, as a old school or confessionalist or whatever,

I want to call myself, none of which is completely accurate, if I want to complain that everyone doesn't worship like my church does, that's disingenuous or uninformed or unrealistic.

Um, but, uh, consensus on some of these, you know, big ticket items,

I think, um, you know, we're under a lot of pressure from the culture, uh, to accommodate various things and, uh, on most issues, the

PCA is pretty good, but, you know, because of the revoice conference and things like that, um, there, there are tensions there.

And over the role of, of women in the office of deacon, not, um, there is no push to have women become ruling elders, um, on the local session or pastors at all, but, um, we, we are having these cultural things over, um, you know, broader roles for women in actual offices.

Um, and, and, you know, a deacon is one of our two offices, elder and deacon. And then among the elders, you have elders who preach and elders who rule and shepherd.

So, um, you know, we've got the same issues, you know, we've got 30 overtures, I think so far, which are, you know, requests for the general assembly to do something or vote on something.

And at least half of them have to do with gender and sex, sex issues.

Um, and so we mirror the culture in that way. Um, that's as a connected church, uh, you're affected by all those things.

And, um, you know, we have those issues to deal with. Um, I think if it didn't go well, the

PCA might look a lot more like the EPC, which is sort of a middle position between the conservative

Presbyterian church and a liberal one, um, that, you know, they're very conservative

EPC churches and their, their EPC churches with women pastors, I don't think you would, you would see the push for any kind of women in the elder role in the next 10, 15 years in the

PCA, but I think, I think, um, sort of methodologically and culturally, there are parts of the

PCA that have more in common with the, with the EPC and might see that as a, uh, a future partnership rather than, you know, the more conservative, smaller, uh,

Presbyterian and reformed churches. So, um, it's, again, it's more about practice and it's more about how we view, uh, interaction with culture.

Uh, it has to do with, uh, views of the kingdoms, um, things like, um, Copperianism, um, and what we do on those other six days, um, we're fairly united on Sundays, I think.

Hmm, Brad, that's interesting. Thank you for that, uh, analysis. Uh, if I was at a, on vacation and it was the

Lord's day and I was going to go worship and something we always taught our children, it's not, uh, will we go on Sunday, the

Lord's day to worship the Lord, but, um, where will we go? Right. If we're out of town, we'll go somewhere.

And if I thought, uh, here's a Southern Baptist church or PCA, I'd probably go to a

PCA church to worship if I was out of town, if I had those two choices only. Uh, but I'm afraid sometimes

I probably walk into those PCA churches and I got the blue lights and the praise band and all the other things that I would normally get in a

Baptist church. So it almost looked the same. And then I probably would go to a place where you're at.

What's the name of your church again? Can you tell me online or is that all right? Oh, yeah. It's it's covenant Presbyterian church in Oak Ridge, Tennessee.

Okay. Uh, I'm just kind of jumping around randomly.

I listened to a Joey Piper interview and he was talking about staying in the PCA. If things don't go well in the

PCA, I mean, my kind of mentality, of course, as, as an outsider and, and just kind of a different person,

I guess, but I'm thinking, you know, I was surprised to hear Piper talk about staying almost like no matter what, because we have to hold the line at what point do you think people leave the

PCH or churches rather leave the PCA and go to OPC? What would be the final last straw that would break the back of a, of a church to say, we've got to leave

PCA and go somewhere else? Well, there, there are different opinions on that.

Um, probably the view that, um, that Dr. Papa was espousing was as long as I'm not required to sin, as long as there's not something that's required of me, uh, that's where, where my church has to do something on biblical, uh, to remain in fellowship, uh, we're not going anywhere.

Uh, but there are others who, who are so concerned about the direction that they're already talking about, um, forming a new denomination.

Or in every year, there are just a very few churches leave the PCA, not many, nothing like a flood, not even a trickle.

And, um, so there, there's a variety of views on that. Some people, I mean, in, in my

Presbytery, um, I think the church has just left. Although I don't know that it's completely official, they've gone to a very small denomination in the

Presbytery, just North of me. A couple of churches went to the Bible Presbyterian church, which is very small and, um, uh, you'd have to understand the history of Presbyterianism in the

U S to understand where it came from and why it was formed. So there are a few churches leaving all the time.

There are, there are some PCA churches that have gone to the EPC or even ECO. And those are the more liberal denominations.

So it goes, it goes, you know, they're, they're on the, on the edges of the margins on both sides.

There are people, um, coming and going all the time, but very few.

Um, so for some people it would be, you know, we've got an overture at this general assembly in June that would, um, give churches the option to actually ordain female deacons and have one office of deacon, which would have male and female serving together with the same title, that would be enough for some people to leave the

PCA. Some would not think of leaving unless there was, um, um, you know, a serious move to ordain women as elders.

And again, we don't have anything against women. It's just that we think those of us who think that the simple teaching of scripture is that men should be elders and men should be deacons.

We're just going to have, you know, that's, that's just an issue for us.

It's not a, it's not a quality of the sexes. It's, it's the biblical roles of the sexes.

So, um, those are the, that's the range. Some people that until you tell me

I've got to ordain females, I'm here. And some people are ready to go now over just, um, the things that a few churches have done or kind of the general drift and vibe of the more progressive elements of the denomination.

So it's a, it's a, it's a extremely broad continuum and there's no consensus on it.

Brad, I don't know if you realize this or not, but I was talking to one fairly well -known and respected

Christian leader. And he was talking about really the, he didn't call you the heartbeat of the

PCA, but it was almost like you were the, the leveler. Uh, if there was a balance, uh, um, to some of the liberal tendencies in the

PCA, the, the, the voice for the opposite side, the confessional side, conservative side was presbycast.

Do you think that's no, I don't think that's true. We don't have that many.

We don't have that many listeners, but I mean, we do put a lot of information out. And of course we have a point of view.

And, um, if you want to follow the issues in PCA with, with our slant on it, we certainly, um, follow the overtures, follow the personalities, um, and, uh, the movements, um, uh, you know, the, the more the progressives in the, and again, progressive, that doesn't mean political progressive that that's a, that's a term that, um, a

PCA leader who was not, you know, a right winger, uh, coined, um, it's not terribly helpful, but, uh, um, if you, if you want to know,

I mean, we, we, we follow all those, all those actors and, and people and, uh, and just try to share information and we talk about stuff pretty frankly, which makes us some enemies, um, but I think we,

I hope we're, we're fair, even though we may have a little edge and, and we may go overboard sometimes, but, um, uh,

I do know, I know a lot of people, but, and there's just not a, you know, I don't, I've just found that, uh, that most, uh, most of the more moderate progressive

PCA people just don't use, um, uh, social media that much and aren't, aren't comfortable with it.

And for some reason or other, we are, um, but, um, we don't, we don't want to be divisive and, you know,

I'll be sitting with these guys at general assembly, um, voting with them in the, uh, this

June and, uh, I'm not there. There were a couple of closed Facebook groups for PCA elders.

One of them has over 2 ,400 people on it. So there are ways for us to, to talk about these things and, and, you know, certainly private and, um, actually think it made last year's general assembly more harmonious because we had, you know, we'd sort of, uh, we've had knocked down drag outs online before we got there and, uh, you know,

I think it actually, uh, diffused some, uh, suspicion, um, but we'll see every year is different.

And, um, you know, the, uh, again, there are some, you just don't ever know, but with a connected church, you really are connected.

So you have to be careful what you say and, um, and, uh, you've got to be realistic, but, um, try to try to get along.

I think one of the reasons why we get along is because I think we have that similar kind of edge and, uh, pushing some things on social media.

So that's at least how I explain it. I don't know how you explain it, but, uh, probably, uh, cut from the same cloth.

Um, what does it say about evangelicalism when NoCo was more Presbyterian than some of the Presbyterian churches in the

PCA? What does that mean? Well, that brings up something when this is not just PCA, but the difference in practice that I was talking about earlier in the

PCA, that's where we differ on practice more than on doctrine. Um, it's, it's just, there are a lot of PCA churches that resemble fairly generic evangelical churches.

Uh, you could walk in, like, as you alluded to, you could walk into some PCA churches and you might not, if you didn't know it was a

PCA church, you might not, it might not be obvious that this was a Presbyterian church.

Um, usually it's going to be the liturgy in a PCA churches is pretty good, but the way it's presented music, um, informality, that sort of thing makes it may seem, may seem pretty, pretty standard, generic evangelical, and we don't mean evangelical in the sense that, um, in the good sense that, um, uh, you know, we're, we're proponents of the good news and we're concerned with its spread, we're talking about something more, you know, distinctly

American, middle of the road, um, uh, heritage and revivalism and pragmatism.

And, um, and a certain, I don't know, a certain, uh, type of technique to appeal to people, reach people, meet their felt needs.

Um, that's what I mean when I say evangelical. And I think most of us know, understand that no one knows what that means.

So, um, uh, but the difference in the, in, in the PCA is, um, some, some, like some of the guys in the

PCA can happily be somewhere else. I think they think the PCA is best and the reform theology is best, but, um, and I would say it's a good thing that they're not all hung up on being

Presbyterian, they want to be more evangelical or, uh, they wouldn't use the label, but I don't see a lot of difference between some of the tactics of the city churches and the cool churches and, you know, evangelicalism more broadly, because that's one thing coming from the

Southern Baptist convention, I saw a lot of this stuff. And it was usually all in theory, but, uh, even after the

SBC went, went conservative, there were some very. Pragmatic revivalistic, uh, uh, very pro programmed programmatic, uh, efforts to, um, that were, they were very broad and, um, you know, a lot of guys would be happy that they're broad.

You know, they said we should be broad. We're not, we're not reaching out if we're not broad, but, um, so it's really, um,

I'll tell you view ministry, whether we talk about in my circles, ordinary means of grace ministry, which means we rely on the preaching of the word, uh, the singing of the word, the praying of the word and the reading of the word and the services.

Um, and we try to, that's what we think makes the difference when it makes disciples and converts people, whereas other people are going to lean, um, they're going to, they're going to have high regard for the

Bible, but they may, um, it may rely on techniques and cultural things that we're not, um, not sold on.

Talking to Brad Isbell, we shouldn't probably go too much longer, Brad. Thank you for taking time out of your workday, uh, to talk to me here at no compromise radio.

Let's, let's do a little kind of round Robin, kind of faster paced. I, I say something to you and then you just kind of give me your gut knee jerk responses, whatever comes to your head.

Uh, can, are you willing to do that? Yeah. Well, you know, one of the answers might be

Taco Bell. Okay. Uh, let's start with don't be an

Erdman. Oh, well that's, um, you know, we love Machen and I know you do too.

Um, Jay Gresham Machen was an important figure in the Presbyterian controversy of the twenties.

And, uh, his, uh, one of his, uh, nemeses at Princeton theological seminary was, was not a liberal.

He was a moderate, um, named Charles Erdman and one of the, um, officers in the seminary and a leader.

So, uh, it's really, um, uh, it, when we say don't be an Erdman, we say, don't be the kind of moderate that, um, it's going to be, it's going to allow bad things to happen or a desire for moderation and, uh, being evangelical ultimately does you in as it did in, you know, the real moderates and evangelicals in the

PCUSA. Okay. That's good. I have something for you. That's the

Machen horn. When we mentioned Machen, everyone, you don't know Machen, M -A -C -H -E -N. Just, uh, look him up and read

Christianity and liberalism. Uh, all right. Next topic here, uh, the gospel coalition.

What comes to your mind? Well, I guess, you know,

I guess the founders, Tim Keller and Don Carson come to mind, um, change comes to mind because in some ways they, they made some of the, um, again, people don't like this word, but the more progressive directions in conservative reformed and evangelicalism, uh, movements possible by sort of mainstreaming some social justice ideas.

And even, even some of the SSA Christian ideas with Sam Albury and people like that, but I think

I noted at the most recent convention, which was just a conference, which was two weeks ago, they sort of pulled back on that.

Um, they, they walked back and, and kind of presented us more, more, uh, cautious on some of these, uh, social and cultural issues, but, uh, you know,

I used to have sheep and, uh, the best thing with sheep is not to have much change. Um, but always say that evangelicalism is predicated on constant change.

So there's a lot of change and fluidity with the gospel coalition, lots of good stuff, lots of good people, but ultimately

I think not helpful or necessary for, um, for conservative confessional churches.

Okay. Excellent. Uh, how about worship dancers? What comes to your mind? Oh, um, yeah, the, uh, the worship dancers, be they, uh, uh, offertory performers or, or whatever.

Um, just don't find any support for that in scripture. We, uh, we hold to something that's called the regulative principle of worship, which means we only include things in worship that we find in, in scripture, uh, just because we can find

King David dancing or, um, an old Testament prophet, uh, dancing, that's not, that's not normative.

We look at the general principles of scripture, but we also look at the New Testament narrative and, um, could not allow dancing, uh, for that reason.

Some people would use the same principles to say, well, we shouldn't have any, uh, instruments, we shouldn't have, um, uh, any goofiness or skits or anything like that.

Um, I would agree with some of those things, but, uh, uh, it's the application of the regulative principle of worship.

That's another good thing to look up if you don't know what it is. Well, Brad, it's interesting as you talk about that with King David, of course, we can look at descriptions in the

Bible and narratives, and they're not prescriptions for the New Testament church. Uh, I guess if we use the philosophy that David danced, why don't we have a 12 loaves of showbread and, and, uh, we could have some show showbread in the sanctuary.

And, and, and I think people, you know, like the bread of the presence and maybe they like the, the, the moniker showbread better.

I guess we could do that. You just sent me something on Twitter and it was from a website in a church in New England here.

And it said, uh, the quote you sent me was a church that can distinguish the word based elements in worship from the socio cultural based forms that the elements must assume in order to transact

God's living presence. And then the webpage you said had a picture of a worship dancer. Yeah, that's a very strange, strange.

Um, I don't hear that a lot to transact God's living presence. Yeah. How has that done?

I maybe Nadab and Abihu, I think they tried that. Yeah. We, we don't think we have any tool, anything to offer except, except the scripture.

Uh, and that's what the Holy spirit uses and everything else is, is static and noise at best and possibly, you know, a positive evil at worst.

That's what we saw with Nadab and Abihu for instance. So the safest thing is to, um, is to stick with the word and to, uh, and, and we do believe that that's what, that's what

God uses. That's what the Holy spirit uses. Uh, and, uh, that's where, that's where, that's just where we have to, that's where we have to rest and, um, it takes courage and patience to do that sometimes is it, it's a slow work sometimes it's, it's always an invisible work, but just like the evangelicals of the past and the revivalists of the past, like Charles Finney, everybody wants to see something and they want to short circuit that process and as Americans, even in the 1800s, we wanted, uh, we wanted something we could package and, uh, and replicate.

And we wanted results and we, we liked excitement. All those things were true then. And they're much more true now.

Brad, as you were talking, it reminded me of a story, uh, here at the church. Uh, somebody came to the church and they had a very, uh, semi -Pelagian at best background when it comes to theology.

Uh, and they didn't believe in the doctrine of election, unconditional election. And they said, are we welcome to, to attend, even though we don't believe that?

I said, of course. And we're going to be teaching through the Bible verse by verse. Here's what I mean when I say that here's what

I don't mean. And we're glad you're here. And, uh, I've been here 22 years now.

And I said to him a while ago, uh, how you, how you doing with the doctrines of grace and five points of Calvinism or unconditional election, or are you believing in those now?

And, uh, he said, I am. And I said, how long did it take you to submit to or get over or whatever words we want to use the doctrine of unconditional election?

He said, Oh, probably five to seven years. And to me,

Brad, that made me think, okay, week in and week out preaching the word of God, uh, these are the ordained means and how the spirit of God changes people and, uh, changes their minds and grants them repentance.

So they're conformed to the word of God and what it teaches. And don't you think that the society today, uh, has so influenced the church, everything has to be fast and quick, and we've got to go for the big score versus just, you know what, we might not see a lot of fruit, but that's not our responsibility is to even see the fruit or try to get the fruit.

We're to be faithful to the ordained means and the Lord will take care of the rest, whether that is, uh, under damnation, under salvation, under slow sanctification, under fast sanctification, uh, et cetera.

Isn't, isn't that the right paradigm? Oh, yeah. You know, I hate to bring in a sociological concept since I oppose so many for using social sociological concepts, but it's the old saw the medium is the message.

Um, and I think that what that means is if our, if our worship is, um, it's done with reverence and awe and seriousness that sends a message about who

God is, um, and who we are, uh, if we are, you know, we're, we're responding in worship, but we're, we're there to receive and hear

God's word and not to, um, not to be the stars of the show, not to be entertained, um, not to be catered to all of them, you know, you want nice restrooms and a, and a nursery that's, uh, safe and orderly and things like that.

And you don't want it to be too hot or too cold in the building, but, um, we're not catering to people's, um, uh, preferences in any number of ways.

And, uh, you know, that scares people off. We, uh, I'm told we had some visitors last Sunday and they, you know, they admitted to someone that they were just absolutely shocked by our worship service.

It was so different than anything I'd ever known. And we said, they, they sort of liked it and they, they thought it was probably the way it should be done, but they just, you know, they use the word shock, um, but, and, and that would horrify a lot of, um, church growth people or evangelicals, but shocking, uh, is the last thing they want.

They want it to be, um, uh, comfortable and familiar. Um, but I don't know,

I don't see anywhere in the Bible that the worship of God and encounters with him in the old Testament, especially, or with Saul, um, that those were ever comforting and, uh, entertaining and, um, safe spaces.

Um, they, they were, they're different. It's a different, it's a different thing and it should be different.

So that's, uh, that's a huge difference. And, uh, that's one of the, you know, divides the

PCA, a big, a big, uh, big variation and how, how we worship and how we, how we structure things.

Brad, my old pastor used to say, when unbelievers visit the local church service for worship on the

Lord's day, they should say to themselves, I've never seen anything like this in the world.

And I thought that was very insightful because we're not trying to cater to the world. We're not trying to mimic the world.

And when we do, when we evangelicalism caters to the world and imitates it, we're usually really bad at it.

Right? The music isn't as good and the drama isn't as good and the musicals aren't as good. And, uh, there's nothing like this in the world.

And of course, then first Corinthians 14 talks about these people then falling down on their faces saying, surely God is in this place.

And I don't know if anybody did that this last weekend with Ed Young Jr. and the basketball

March Madness skit. Did you see many people falling down for that? Um, you know,

I don't understand how adults can actually tolerate that. Um, some of the things that happen in worship and that people enjoy and that people drive across town for,

I don't understand it. I'll just, I just don't understand. Um, how

Christians can, um, can, um, people have a high tolerance. Apparently that Christians can, can, can, um, can put up with some of the hijinks that we see, uh, in churches.

And, uh, you know, think about it. We don't expect a wedding or a funeral, uh, to be like, um, an

SEC football game. Uh, we, but church now looks a lot more like a concert or sporting event or a comedy show than it does like a wedding or a funeral or college graduation or something serious, something that you dress up for.

Now we have, we have a fair, well, not for the modern church, but we have a fairly, we have people that wear jeans to church and we have people that wear suits and we have everything in between.

Um, but I think how you dress is indicative of how seriously you take something.

So I think if you're going to go to church, you probably ought to dress more like a wedding or funeral or college graduation than, um, than, uh,

Guns and Roses show. Um, but you know, that's a, that's a, that's an indicator.

Um, we want to be comfortable and entertained all the time now, apparently, and that's a hard place for the church to be,

I think. Reminded me of that Neil Postman's book, Amusing Ourselves to Death.

Brad, thank you for being on No Compromise Radio today. You did say something earlier and I want to have you have a last comment if you have the time for it.

We normally don't allow, you know, C .S. Lewis, Chesterton kind of quotes on the show, but for you,

I'm going to make an exception. What'd you say to me just before the show about Chesterton? Because I think the, uh, the quote was pretty good and you had some good insight there.

Tell me what you were going to tell me. Well, he was, you know, one of the things that, that, that we talk about a lot on our show and on Twitter are the, what we would call the social justice warriors in the church.

And, um, and there's a lot of, a lot of that in the, in the

PCA and then, and of course in the SBC and in other places. And, um, it's talking about, uh, uh,

Chesterton was talking about, um, someone who was insane. And he said that they weren't illogical.

Uh, they just worked with a very narrow set of facts. They had tunnel vision and, um, and that you couldn't, you couldn't assail the logic of some of these things, but you could, you could, you could question the basis that they, they were coming to these conclusions on.

So I think in the church, a lot of times today, I fear the tendency is toward segregation and fragmentation, uh, as we talk about, uh, reconciliation and, and, and, uh, broadening in certain ways.

I really think that, um, you know, there was, there was the, um, the controversy with, uh,

Kim and he, who won the truth table speaking at a, at a conference for women.

And she said some very strong and, you know, she talked about, uh, uh, whiteness and white supremacy and some things like that.

And that may, that may be well and good in a social and sociology class or, or even in a, uh, a political platform.

But one of, one of our distinctives is we would say that, um, those things don't have, um, you've got to be very, very careful with issues like that in the church.

Um, cause you know, we are a, a heavenly, um, we are about heavenly things. Um, we're, we're, we're concerned with people's bodies and, and wellbeing.

But, um, if you read the Christianity and liberalism by Machen, you read that fourth chapter on the church, especially the last few pages, uh, you get our position on the spirituality of the church and the church's ultimate goal.

And, um, uh, I actually can't read the last couple of pages of Christianity and liberalism without, uh, without breaking down usually.

And, um, but the picture that Machen paints of the church as a refuge from the world and not something, you know, totally embroiled in it, uh, is very moving.

So, uh, we would be those who are, are for the spiritual nature of the church. Um, because, uh, you know, spiritual things are eternal things and that's what we should be concerned about.

Brad, thank you for being on No Compromise Radio. Uh, if you want to follow Brad on Twitter, it's at Chortles Weekly.

Uh, he also has, I think at PresbyCast, or you can go to iTunes or those other places you can get your podcast,

PresbyCast. I think you'll be encouraged. Brad talked, uh, today a lot about, uh, topics that were very important and serious, but there's a side of Brad that's got the kind of funny, snarky, uh, no -co type of humor.

And even if you look at his pinned tweet on Twitter, you've got napark in jeans.

And so you've got the skinny jeans for the PCA, you've got the, uh, OPC kind of short, what do they call short jeans again?

Short city jeans? Brad - George. Chris - George. The UN, uh,

URCNA is Von Dutch, et cetera. So, uh, I think that's very, there's a lot of fun.

There's a lot of humor, uh, but there's some serious things as well. So, Brad, thank you again for being on No Compromise Radio.

I appreciate you and your ministry. Brad - Well, thank you. Well, we don't, we don't consider it a ministry. Uh, my partner and I, a

Resbiterian, uh, but he said to say hello. Chris - Oh, you know what? I think he and I have some musical tastes that are along the same lines same lanes

I don't think you like that about him No, no, I tolerate him like a little brother

Well in this particular case, I'm your older brother because I'm 59 and you're what 55

For 54. Yeah. Okay, perfect Well, thanks again for being on no compromise radio at tortles weekly and at presby cast

No compromise radio with pastor Mike Abendroth is a production of Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston Bethlehem Bible Church is a

Bible teaching church firmly committed to unleashing the life Transforming power of God's Word through verse by verse exposition of the sacred text

Please come and join us our service times are Sunday morning at 1015 and in the evening at 6 We're right on route 110 in West Boylston.