Denominational Venn Diagram with Guest Redeemed Zoomer

Hey guys, it's Keith and I am here today with my friend the redeemed zoomer.

Hey, how are you, buddy? I'm doing well.

Thanks for having me on here again It's great to be back on the show and I'm excited to talk about the diagram of different denominations today Absolutely.

And for those of you who don't know I posted this on my Twitter about maybe about three or four days ago There's a diagram that was floating around social media that was actually created by someone else that I know He's known as the Baptist insurrectionist and I didn't know that when I first started looking at this diagram But when I put it out there on Twitter, some people said hey I know who that is and they let me know who it was and I got his permission for the redeemed zoomer and I to come on and talk about it so that we could sort of analyze his arguments analyze what he has put together and Give our thoughts as to whether or not this is even something we as Christians should even be considering and it's based on the idea the question of Who is and who is not? Truly part of the body of Christ.

I'll bring the Venn diagram up now and you'll see on the diagram.

It says in the middle the Catholic and it and by that he puts universal Church or aka the elect and Around that it is a series of circles each one representing a different denomination now Zoomer I know is it okay if I call you zoomer? Is that? Just to make it simple I know that you are part of the PC USA Yes, that is correct.

And you are part of a movement that is trying to bring I don't know if would you say the word is revival or re? What are you trying? What's recon key stick explain that for just like take two minutes and tell people what that's about Sure, so I'm in the PC USA It's one of those little small rainbow circles within the Presbyterian circle And I appreciate that this graph does acknowledge that there are some faithful Christians remaining in the PC USA Although they are a minority I obviously I don't know the percentage of people in my denomination that hold to the essentials of Christianity I think it's higher than most people think but largely my denomination just like all the mainline Protestant denominations is famous for drifting in a Theologically liberal direction and part of the reason why it has been drifting in that direction is Because those who are theologically conservative keep either leaving the denomination or not speaking out about it So the recon key stuff is really just an effort to reverse that process to get people to join the more conservative minority churches in the denomination and To get those who are already in these denominations to start speaking out for the gospel And it's not meant to be like a political battle like the liberals versus the conservatives It's really meant to be a revival of the gospel So I would use that word revival, but it's more like a revival of true biblical theology rather than like most revivals Because most revivals have actually been a move away from traditional established churches but this is trying to be a revival of the traditional established church because American evangelicalism keeps moving away from them Gotcha and before we get to the graph that you just made me think about something because earlier this week I actually interviewed a group of Anglican pastors I don't know if you saw that yet, but it's been it's out there and I they were all members they were all pastors or rectors in the ACNA which is the Anglican Church, North America, which is not part of the larger mainline Anglican body and Your goal as I as I want to be able to make sure I'm explaining it correctly Your goal would be rather than creating these new groups these offshoot groups like like that would be to seek to bring revival from within or Seek to bring back to the fidelity of the gospel from within Yeah, I mean these conservative offshoot denominations.

They they do have a function as like Strongholds of good theology but I see them as they should be temporary things just temporary strongholds with the eventual goal of Retaking the original denominations the ones that have that sort of historical continuity Gotcha.

Gotcha Well as we're looking at this This Venn diagram and I want to say this on behalf of the Baptist insurrections because I did speak to him He was very gracious to give me a very high quality picture because the one I had was kind of blurry He said let me give you a good copy.

So he's all in on this He's he's he's he's a good dude.

I want to say on his behalf part of this He did tell me was intended to sort of be funny He's like me.

He likes to poke fun, you know Baptist insurrectionists He's not he's not trying to make a statement because when I posted this on my Twitter page Some people were very offended by it.

Some people took very big issue by it You know zoomer on your page.

You do a lot of defining and a Sort of describing different denominations.

Do you get a lot of people that give you a hard time saying? Oh, you're not being fair or people pretty pretty pretty nice to you or I mean, I think you're pretty No matter no matter what you say There's always gonna be that one guy who says like no you're misrepresenting us But then if you change what you say, then some other people are gonna be like no you were right the first time now You're misrepresenting us and it's like if I if you criticize any group some groups take criticism better than others I think Baptists take critics criticism pretty well when I explain why I'm not a Baptist Baptists are generally pretty cool with that if I ever say like the slightest criticism of Lutheranism or Eastern Orthodoxy, they just explode so Well, I I have a group of Lutherans that are coming on in a couple of weeks I'm doing these bowtie dialogues where I talk to different groups and I'm looking forward to the Lutherans, but I am a little nervous Because I do know that Strong Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, let's let's get to looking at the the circle here The one the one part of this that really bothers me I want to ask you if you if you feel the same way Maybe I'm just over analyzing is the fact that there's the big part in the middle.

That's not connected to any denomination And yeah, is it saying that the the majority of the elect are like not part of anything including not even a non-denominational church Yeah, I don't think that's what he's saying.

But I know no Yeah, but but for those who might look at it and say oh, is that the point because you know There's a lot of people out there would say I'm a Christian, but I don't go to church or I'm a Christian But I'm not associated with church you and I both would say being a Christian is part of being a Christian is being Associated with a local body being associated with other believers and not being a lone wolf Yes.

Yeah, we would agree.

All right.

And so when we look at this, that's not yeah, that's not intended to make a statement that's just trying to get everybody in the circle in some way and you got a big mass in the middle that that sort of Fits differently.

Now the the thing that people recognize right away Is that and here's what I heard right away was people said whoever made this was obviously either a Baptist or Presbyterian Because they got the majority They kept the majority and since we know it's the Baptist insurrectionists We know why you know, obviously, you know more than half of the Baptist according to him are in this circle But and then of course non-denominational overlaps with Baptist because we know that a lot of times it's the same thing That's true.

I would I would have maybe put them as almost the same exact circle I would have had even more overlap there or maybe I would have put Non-denominational as like a group with inside Baptist because there there's a lot of Baptist I would say they're not non-denominational, but I've almost never seen a non-denominational church that does not adhere to Baptist theology Now a few things I noticed One thing that was most confusing is why is there such an overlap between Lutheran and Roman Catholic? Those are mutually exclusive things another thing is like I Get some a lot of Baptists think the majority of Catholics aren't real Christians, but why did they do that for Anglicans? Why do they think the majority of Anglicans including the non-liberal ones? Why did they think they're not real Christians? The third thing I don't understand is why did they give Eastern Orthodoxy a greater share of the elect than Roman Catholicism a Lot of Protestants think they would rather be Orthodox than Catholic But there's a lot of things Protestants agree with Catholics on that We don't agree with Eastern Orthodox on like the Eastern Orthodox.

They have a different view of the Trinity than we do They don't believe in original sin and they're much more aggressive about Themselves being the only form of Christianity than the Roman Catholics are so it's like I'm not either but I would much rather be Roman Catholic than Eastern Orthodox.

So I think when Protestants seem to favor Orthodoxy over Catholicism, they just don't really understand either Yeah, and I I agree with you and and and what's interesting about what you just said is I would say if you ask me Why why'd they get more more to Eastern Orthodox than Roman Catholicism is most people don't understand half of what you just said about Eastern Orthodoxy, they don't understand the distinction in the Trinity.

They don't understand the distinction in original sin they don't understand the concept that even even the understanding of justification and salvation is is different in the idea of the the seeking to you know, become united with the divine versus Justification as a forensic declaration Something that we receive as a as a from God as in regard to our guilt, right? So there's there is a ton of of distinctions to be made there and that's a huge observation So thank you for pointing that out.

And Yeah, I don't think it's fair either that they overlap Lutherans again.

I think this shows That a Baptist made this because when a Baptist sees a Lutheran Church, they see Catholic light Right, they see a church, you know, cuz you're your Presbyterian is your church high church Presbyterian ism Where there's the the robes and everything.

How does your church present itself? Is it high liturgy? Is it sort of relaxed? So it would be described by Baptist and non-denominational as high church But during the Reformation like what was low church during the Reformation would be considered high church today Like during the Reformation the the low church churches had like no images of Christ and they had more plain walls But they were still very beautiful churches and very liturgical ceremonies.

There were just certain elements that were removed So Presbyterians today like yes my church.

It looks like a traditional church.

We have a choir.

We have robes We have liturgy all that it would be described as high church bite by evangelicals But Presbyterian ism during the Reformation was seen as as low church I guess Lutherans are more high church than Presbyterians.

I can see why they would be seen as Catholic light But I'm wondering like even if even if you're comparing them like that Why is there overlap between like Catholicism and Lutheranism but not between Catholicism and Orthodoxy? Yeah, no, absolutely yeah, because they're very similar in the and like you that that that certainly the high church in the in the in the all of the accouterments that go with With that style of worship would certainly be as in in Orthodoxy as well as Roman Catholicism.

Yeah that that one that And I'm sure he's gonna see this and he may he may send an email He may make his own video and explain it, but I would be very interested I would I would not put Lutheran in the same circle as Roman Catholicism and I would probably I Would probably be more gracious to the Lutherans in In regard to salvation, I guess he's got half the circle in so I guess maybe that's that's fair That's about what he did for Baptists.

I and I and I and having met you I would be more I would be more gracious to the PC USA because you give me hope that there are that there are brothers and sisters in the PC USA who are who are trying to Trying to effect change and and and and and and believe the gospel so those are so those are positives there And real quick before before we move on I want to say something that I don't think I've ever said this on air before I actually think and this is this may get me hate hate emails and stuff I actually think denominationalism is not the worst thing a lot of people think that the denominations are terrible and that you know Because of the split off from from Roman Catholicism and the creation of denominations it has split Christianity into a terrible broken mess that's never going to be repaired, but I see I See believers in each of these denominations that are expressing their faith in a way that is in accordance with their conscience And I'm I'm fine with that to it to a certain degree.

I think we all have to Stand before God, you know that Romans 14 says before his master each one of us stands or falls and so I can't I Couldn't go worship in a Roman Catholic Church I don't think because I think there would there be a lot that I would have to overcome with my conscience But I could go worship in a Lutheran Church.

I could go worship in a Presbyterian Church.

I have We may have differences on the Lord's table We may have differences on how we understand these things but but I still see these as brothers and sisters in Christ and and and and I know you and I may have a little different understanding of how much of Rome we see as part of brothers and Sisters in Christ.

I know we've talked about that on the previous show and and I'm fine to have that difference, you know To understand that differently, but I but I don't hate the concept of denominations as much as some people do I think that they serve a purpose in the body of Christ.

What are your thoughts on that? I Fully agree with that.

A lot of what I do is try to show the beauty of different denominations I think when people try to pursue unity, there's two ways to do it wrong The one type of unity is the non-denominational way where it's like let's completely forget all our traditions and just have the most Dumbed down lowest common denominator Christianity we can and the other wrong way to do unity is like the Eastern Orthodox way where it's like Let's have unity by you all joining us and you all abandoning your traditions and joining our traditions So one of them causes everyone to lose our tradition One of them is not going to happen because if it was possible it would have happened by now If it was possible for one denomination to convert all the others, it would have happened I think the best way to pursue Christian unity is a sort of e pluribus unum of the denominations like a United States of denominations I know there's not quite the same thing So I'm not saying it was the same thing.

But you know, they had 12 tribes of Israel.

Yeah, they had 12 Apostles There's approximately 12, you know major Christian traditions.

So I don't know maybe there's maybe there's something to that I've always I've always appreciated the beauty of different denominations Hey, I want to I want to just for a second That's a brilliant thought and and I have said this so many times and I'm glad to hear that we agree On this because you often hear the argument that there's 30,000 denominations 40,000 denominations It really is there may be a lot of splinter groups But in general, there's only a handful of traditions and that's a word you just use Christian traditions Whether they be Baptist whether they be Anglican whether they be Presbyterian these are traditions that have splinter groups underneath them I mean you could talk about I could name four different types of Baptists right off the top of my head and You could do the same with Presbyterians, but in in essence, those are all on the same branch of a tree They're just different small twigs off of that same branch and you're saying you think there's about 12 branches, which is interesting I never I never counted them to come up to that number But that's a that's an interesting thought of course Rome would think they were the trunk Think they're the trunk and then the Oriental Orthodox think they're the trunk I think if you're Protestant, you can appreciate every denomination where if you're a Catholic Orthodox or Oriental You can only really appreciate yours.

So that's why people like Gavin Ortlund.

I'm not sure if you know He's like a Baptist you and he says that Protestantism is the most lowercase e Catholic because we can appreciate saints from all traditions Whereas if you're in one of these one true church denomination, you can sort of respect other others But you can only really appreciate your own as as the kingdom of God So that's that's why I like being Protestant because I can I can still appreciate the Saints in in the other traditions That is absolutely true and a good observation all right, so Let's start.

Let's start making our way around one thing other thing I want to point out is that the the ones with the rainbow colors are Episcopalian United Methodist PC USA all of those obviously were an attempt to sort of point out that there's quite a bit of liberalism that Has made its way into those but the IFB and King James only He did that on purpose.

I know he did to poke fun at them.

I just noticed that at first I didn't look so closely.

I thought that was like another mainline, but it's like wait, hold on a second That was a that was a shot across the bow because within Baptist circles the the the Stranger ones tend to be the ones who are either completely fundamental Baptist independent fundamental Baptist Or and they tend to be King James only as well.

So and they can be very very You want to talk about folks who think they're the only ones Oftentimes and again, I'm probably gonna get hate mail for saying that but but the guys I talked to you know If you're Calvinist, you're going to hell if you're if you're a Lutheran you're going to hell if you're anything, but a King James believing Fundamental, you know suit wearing him singing No beard having Baptist you better You better repent so Well, we go around the circle and we get to the and I'm keeping this within the believers now because eventually we're gonna talk about Jehovah Witness and Mormons and Hebrew roots, but within the circle there's one more that we haven't really discussed and that's the Pentecostal and You'll notice he puts Pentecostals and charismatics in the circle Along with some word of faith and and it bothers me that he put that much because I have such a hard time with word of Faith, but but I'm sure there are word of faith that are true believers that are just confused So I'll give grace on that but he did put oneness outside of that and I would as well I would say oneness demonstrates a rejection of Historic Orthodox Christianity because we still have some I mean you and I would agree there are things that are non-negotiable Well, yeah, it's oneness isn't just a rejection of Historically, it's a rejection of God.

It's Making a different God now, I would say yes, there are a few word of faith people who are true believers Why is there a bigger slice of word of faith than Roman Catholicism? That is what it's That doesn't make sense Well again, I think it's because you're dealing with a Baptist who made it Yeah, and if I know one thing I grew up in a context where Roman Catholicism was not considered Christianity I mean, I remember hearing people say well, I'm a Catholic and they'll say, you know, well, I'm a Christian That was the that was the opposite right like like, you know, cuz that's the way Baptist saw it We're Christians.

You're not and so as a as a That's why I think that the slice is bigger not that it's a right ratio, but I think the way it's being seen That makes sense and it really depends on where you are in the world Like in Latin America Catholicism does seem a lot more sketchy than it does in the u.s For example, that's why a lot of the most like vicious anti Catholics I've met are from Latin America where Pentecostal ism is growing rapidly as sort of a reaction against Catholicism Oh, wow So yeah, so when we look at that Word of Faith circle We notice an overlap with two other big circles and that's the NAR which for those who don't know that's the new apostolic Reformation and That didn't make it into the real believer circle that that's only overlapping with Pentecostals and Charismatics and Word of Faith And that does represent a subset of Pentecostal ism.

That is relatively recent within the last generation that Seeks to argue that they are a new a well a new apostolic Reformation This is a new work of God that he's bringing about Among among God's people.

Do you think that they're that it's fair to put them completely outside? Do you think that's? Now the things I study are more of like the historic Christian traditions So all these like a new charismatic move, I can't keep track of them So I know really nothing about the NAR other than that.

They claim to be modern-day Apostles Yeah, now is it fair to say that it's all outside? It just it seems very sketchy.

Also, why is it so much of a bigger circle than even Catholicism? Yeah, I don't know that I I don't know that he thought far enough ahead But it's certainly not bigger as far as people than Roman Catholicism Perhaps Pentecostal ism may be reaching that because Pentecostal ism I do believe is one of the fastest growing around the world like you just said in Latin American countries and things like that But I don't think the NAR is bigger than Pentecostal ism as a whole.

I think it's a subset So that's that's just that's just bad fact-checking maybe But the funniest one and this one is the one that made me giggle was when it says actual witchcraft Yeah, because there is What do you have you've done anything on Bethel and and all those all those Folks again, I can't keep track of all these new non-denominational movements So whenever someone asks like what do you think of this famous non-denominational mega church pastor? I'm like I don't think of those people that much because I I try to focus on historic Christianity and and that's not it So I've heard people don't like Bethel I don't know enough about them to make like a wise criticism of them myself You've probably researched it.

So I'll take your word for it well, it's just funny seeing the phrase witchcraft because I have I have In my studies on different things I have come across some of their teachings and some of it does come across very much like witchcraft chanting and things like that the way that they sing very much seems like a post-hypnotic style of meditation or Transcendental meditation.

There's all kinds of things that really just come across very much as And I'm not even sure we call that witchcraft.

Maybe that's like a some kind of Eastern form of mysticism But it would I just saw actual witchcraft and it made me laugh because I was like, yeah I think I think there's some fair to that You know, so that was pretty funny well, what is your familiarity with the The non-christian Completely non-christian cults like the hobo witnesses and Mormons and things like that.

I mean, have you have you done anything on your page with those? Yes, I've made one video explaining why all those groups aren't Christian and like going over where they contradict Christianity and it's very easy to explain why they're not Christian all of them have some heretical doctrine of God or of Christ So it's like if you don't believe Jesus is God you don't believe in the Trinity.

You're worshiping a different God You have a different religion even atheists can understand why these groups aren't Christian I'm curious why Mormons are given the weird shape and not the other ones, but maybe that was just like a joke in the moment well, I Since you mentioned it We'll go ahead and talk about that one first because I do want to talk about Aryans and Jehovah Witness But but I I asked him specifically I said, why did you make the Mormons? It looks like a deflated balloon and he said he just he said it's not intended to look like anything it's just weirder than all the other circles because Mormonism is just strange and I and I yeah, yeah it is The history of it the the claims that are made, you know, I remember years ago our church Was handing out tracts at a parade.

It was a Christmas parade and in the parade some churches had had Floats and one of the floats was a Mormon float Because the local Mormon Church had paid the money got into the parade had the float and the float on the side of the float It said you can be married in heaven That was that was the the big letters down the side and I was like, is that the selling point? Is that? That's the evangelistic cry of the Mormons is Your marriage can last into heaven, which I mean, I love my wife, you know I'm glad we're gonna spend eternity together, you know in heaven because we both believe in Christ But the just that is that the selling point? It just seemed weird to me.

So Yeah What I found is that like the more easy to digest for the like general public a type of Christianity makes the religion seem the more likely it is to be a false teaching like every heretical group tries to make the Trinity simpler to understand if you've noticed because they don't like Orthodoxy in in Trinitarian theology is always more confusing than all the heresies Yeah, no, that that's that's There's a lot of truth to that.

Well moving over to the other side because I'm gonna I'm gonna save Hebrew roots for last moving to the other side we see the Aryans the Jehovah Witnesses and the Jehovah Witnesses are in the circle now just for a minute and I didn't I didn't ask you this beforehand.

So I hope it's okay to ask you now Can you give a quick overview of who the Aryans were? Do you know that and and who the Jehovah why the Jehovah Witnesses will be in that circle? Yeah, I mean, I mean you're the pastor.

You're more qualified.

I'll go for it Aryans were a early church heresy that said Jesus the person of Jesus was created by God He did not exist forever And the reason Jehovah's Witnesses would be in that circle is that's basically what they believe they believe Jesus is kind of a high angel created by God, but they do not believe Jesus is God now The Jehovah's Witnesses appeared like less than 200 years ago So they weren't there when the Aryans were doing their thing at Nicaea, which is why not all Aryans are Jehovah's Witnesses But all Jehovah's Witnesses are Aryan in that sense.

Although I would say there are a lot more heretical than even the Aryans.

Yeah Absolutely.

Yeah, and and and you know, I I appreciate how much study you put in and how much information you put out in your videos So even though I'm the I'm the pastor, I love to hear your thoughts.

So so thank you for that for sure Now the the last one and I do have a couple of final things to talk about But before we finish it, I want to make sure we've touched every circle here.

The the Hebrew roots movement Is outside of the circle and I'm not sure I a hundred percent agree I want to hear your thoughts and If you even if you're even familiar with Hebrew roots and and what your thoughts are and I'll tell you why I think you put Them outside the circle and why I'm not sure I would but go ahead Sure, like because um, I have Jewish heritage I for a while I was somewhat not looking into seriously as an I would convert but I was just looking into Messianic Judaism and I think it's it's very sketchy and some people ask me.

Okay, if you're ethnically Jewish Why are you not a Messianic Jew? It's because it's really not rooted in the church So even though a lot of Messianic Jews what they believe is they believe Jesus is the Messiah that doesn't mean they're Christian That doesn't mean they believe Jesus is God or that doesn't mean they believe in the Trinity and I heard some Hebrew roots people on The internet they did agree with the Trinity and the other Christian teachings But they were lamenting how rare it was to find a Hebrew roots teacher that agrees with those things and I was just thinking Okay, maybe there's something wrong with your movement then Yeah, if it's if it's really rare to find someone in that movement who is a an Orthodox Christian so Messianic Judaism, I mean, I think it's possible that some of them could be could be saved I'm not sure if Hebrew roots and Messianic Judaism are the same thing, but I I would say not in this regard typically Messianic Judaism.

Well Hebrew roots is is the Is is is not even really a denomination It's more of a system of understanding the scriptures where the the seeking to bring the Old Covenant Standards into the New Covenant Church and and not all Messianic Jews Attempt to do that a Messianic Jew is simply a person who is Jewish who has received Christ as Savior and Messiah So so it there those don't have to overlap there I'm sure there is overlap but but they they're not necessarily the same So but I get where you I get where you're coming from on that.

Okay One last circle.

I don't think we talked about the Seventh-day Adventists I would kind of agree with their placement like there's a little bit of a certain sliver of Seventh-day Adventist That's true Christian, but it's not they're not quite as radical as Mormons But I still wouldn't consider them one of the legitimate mainstream Christian denominations Sure and I would say they If I were the guy doing this I would have put them inside of Hebrew roots because what they do is essentially the same thing They're taking the Old Testament Standards and or Old Testament ceremonies and making them the standard and so I think they would have fit and that's why I say if You're gonna put a little bit of Seventh-day Adventist in there I would think that a little bit of Hebrew roots Would have been like sort of like the way they did with the others where you had a circle in a circle So yeah, but maybe he's got a different understanding Maybe the guy who made this is thinking like you said The people he's heard teach have denied the Trinity and if they've denied the Trinity, they're obviously outside of the outside of the whole well, brother I've enjoyed talking and I guess the the last thing is we're as we're sort of drawing this to a close and I appreciate your Time is as we're looking at this as a whole which one which one of these do you think is the most egregiously incorrect? The part where Lutheranism overlaps with Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy and Yeah that that part makes like that part makes no sense at all by definition Lutherans are not Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox Yeah, and I think I would agree with that even though he did put a circle in for elevation and saddleback and that bothers me but that they are not denominations, but they are micro denominations within Baptists in the non denominational So I get where he put the circle and why put it there But but when I when I looked at it and I saw a man saddleback gets their own circle That was a little bit of a little bit of a stretch for me.

Well, brother I want to thank you again for being a part of the show And if you would take just a moment Tell everyone about your channel and if you want to if you have things you're working on right now share with us What you got coming up? Sure, thanks, so I have a channel I'm Radim Zumar on Instagram and YouTube.

I'm not a pastor or a seminary person I have zero credentials.

I'm just like a theology nerd on the Internet I make videos explaining just things about Christianity what I believe theologically and I also try and Try and get people to go to church because there's a lot of people who are exploring Christianity But don't know where to start in terms of church So that's why I run a Minecraft server where people like make churches and stuff And I'm also trying to revive the mainline Protestant churches So hopefully those little rainbow circles that are just barely in the ones your church can start moving a bit back back into it Well, that's wonderful.

And I'm thankful for our friendship I'm thankful that we we have an opportunity to talk every now and then and and look forward to doing more in the future with you and I pray that God continues to bless you as you continue to serve him and In your church Thank you.

Likewise and again listener.

I want to thank you for being a part of the show today If you like what you see here Please take the opportunity to subscribe and if you like this video hit the thumbs up If you didn't like this video, make sure you hit the thumbs down button twice again Thank you for being a part of the show today.