May 25, 2017 Show with Tas Walker on “The Genesis Flood: Its Lasting Global Impact which Proves the Earth is Young”: Part Two of a Two-day Discussion of the Age of the Earth (Young Earth)

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Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

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Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions.

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Now here's our host Chris Arntzen. Good afternoon

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming.

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This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Thursday on this 25th day of May 2017 and before I do anything

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I have to wish my co -host Reverend Buzz Taylor a happy 33rd anniversary for his ordination in the ministry and it was 33 years ago today that he was ordained as a

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Christian minister and Christendom has been suffering from the consequences ever since. Well so was my ordination council so there's nothing new about that.

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But I do wish you a happy 33rd anniversary. I appreciate that.

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And also if anybody listening cares to contact Reverend Buzz Taylor on Facebook or some other way to wish him a happy 33rd anniversary on his ordination

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I'm sure that he would appreciate that very much. Well today is the final day, day number two of a two -day discussion that we began yesterday on the age of the earth and today representing the old earth,

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I'm sorry, the rustling noise kind of distracted me. Yesterday the scientist representing the old earth position was

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Dr. Greg Davidson and Dr. Greg Davidson is with Solid Rock Lectures and he gave an hour defense of the old earth position on the age of the earth and today we are having the young earth position defended by Dr.

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Taz Walker of Creation Ministries International, CMI and Dr.

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Taz Walker is a developer of a biological of a geological model to connect geological structures in the field with biblical history applied to the great artisan artesian basin in Australia, the basement rocks in Brisbane and or Brisbane I think they pronounce it over there and the

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Banks Peninsula of New Zealand and other areas of the world. He's an author, researcher, speaker and writer of many articles including in Creation Magazine and the

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Journal of Creation and he is going to be discussing the Genesis Flood, its lasting global impact which proves the earth is young and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you the very first time to Iron Sharpens Iron, Dr.

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Taz Walker. Hi there, hi there Chris, it's really good to be here and thank you for inviting me and all the best from Brisbane in Australia, Brisbane in Australia.

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Okay, so it is Brisbane. Brisbane is the way we say it. Yeah, that's what I thought. Sorry about the mispronouncing of that name and also all the other fumbling and bumbling that I did at the beginning of the program and in studio with me today are two co -hosts and one of them is breathing very loudly into the microphone.

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Sorry, I'll move it back. Two of my co -hosts, we have the

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Reverend Buzz Taylor who I just announced in the beginning who's celebrating his 33rd anniversary of his ordination and we have

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Charlie Liebert, founder of sixdaycreation .com and that's spelled with an

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S -I -X and not a number but it's great to have you back in studio Charlie. Thank you Chris, great to be here.

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And if anybody else would like to join us on the air with a question for Dr. Taz Walker, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com,

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chrisarnson at gmail .com and I'm going to ask you Dr. Walker the same thing

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I asked Dr. Greg Davidson yesterday in the outset of our discussion in regard to the religion of your youth if any and what providential experiences did our sovereign

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Lord bring about in your life that drew you to himself and saved you? Well, my mom and dad used to send me along to Sunday school in my youth and I heard about God and learned about things from the

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Bible, learned about Jesus Christ and I just accepted it, believed it, but I didn't really want to follow him because I wanted to do my own thing and it wasn't until I was much in my early teens really that I really made a commitment to Jesus Christ.

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One person who had a big impact on that was Billy Graham, I believe, and amazingly he came...

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Oh, show's over, show's over. I'm only kidding. Continue, I'm sorry brother, I was just kidding. Yeah, so and I was really challenged to respond to Christ, turn from my sins and to follow

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Jesus and I did that and that's it and Jesus made a huge impact on my life and my family and my children and yeah, so that's really what the main purpose of what

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I'm living for is living for him. Amen. And how would you best succinctly describe your theology today as a

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Christian? I find that a very difficult question actually, but well,

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I believe the Bible, the accuracy of the Bible, the inspiration, it's infallible, it's inerrant,

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I believe it's the Word of God, it's living and active and it speaks to our hearts.

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I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and I believe there's a need for each person to respond personally to him, to receive him as a

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Lord and Savior, to receive him and just as it says in John chapter 1 verse 12 and I believe that God is in control of this world.

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So I don't know where you put that, but I believe when the Bible says that God created in six days, it was six literal days and when it talks about a global flood,

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I believe that, Jesus rose from the dead, a miracle, so I basically believe what the

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Bible says and I don't know about categories, I find it difficult putting myself into a particular category, but if people ask me about specifics,

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I can answer, you know, where I am on those things. And you are a developer of a biblical geological model to connect geological structures in the field with biblical history applied to the great artesian basin in Australia, as I mentioned, the basement rocks in Brisbane and the

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Banks Peninsula of New Zealand. Tell us why that kind of a background of yours would make you an adequate defender of a young earth and a spokesperson on behalf of geological study and discovery in general.

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Well, I originally trained as an engineer and I have a

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PhD in engineering, mechanical engineering, and I worked with the electricity industry in Queensland for decades, a couple of decades, more than that, and we're involved, of course, with lots of geological activities, foundations for power stations, hydroelectric schemes, the mining of coal, the quality of coal, burning of it in power stations, so I had an interest in geology from that angle, but it was my interest in creation.

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I started reading creation materials, read the Genesis Flood by Whitcomb and Morris, and I read

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Creation Magazine, the Journal of Creation, as it was then called, it was called the

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Technical Journal, I read those, and whenever I read these creationist material, it always put the geologic column in there, they had pictures of the column, and I couldn't figure out where Noah's Flood or anything fitted on that column, and so I just, for my own interest, one day

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I sat down and said, well, if the Bible's true, what would you expect to find?

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And so I went through and developed, just on the back of an envelope, really, the various important events in Bible history that affected the geology of the earth, and that's when

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I developed this very simple model, and I presented it at the International Conference of Creation in 1994, which was in Pittsburgh, just up the road from you, and that was a very, very influential time in my life, and at that time,

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I'd enrolled in a degree in geology, so I undertook a degree in geology, and I ended up not only getting a degree, but we call it in Australia an honours degree, where I did extra research into radioactive dating, and since that time,

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I've been with Creation Ministries, really, and so I've done a lot of research, a lot of writing, and investigated a lot of areas, and as time has gone on, you know,

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I found that there are more and more answers to the questions that come up, and that the biblical account is actually absolutely true, and the geology, you can understand the geology once you start from the

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Bible and know what to look for. Now, how would you respond to an old earth creationist, or even a secular scientist, who would obviously agree, at least on the age of the earth, if not even make it a greater number than those who are old earth creationists, because they're not creationists at all, but, the secular scientist that is, but how would you respond to any of the critics that you might have, either from the

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Christian realm or secular realm, who would say that your studies in geology and your experience and your education in geology would not make you an adequate spokesperson for something of the task that we are discussing, including the age of the earth?

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How would you respond to that? Well, basically, I've done these studies at the university, the

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University of Queensland, and I passed with flying colours there, and I was engaged with discussions with the various geological staff, so I think it's better, rather than attacking somebody's credentials, which is important, but rather than just attacking their credentials, people need to listen to their arguments and engage with what they're actually saying.

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As a matter of fact, that's the whole reason why I did the geological degree, and I left my profession as an engineer in the industry, because I was presenting this paper at the

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International Conference of Creation, and I showed it to one of my colleagues at work at the engineering office, and he said it's quite an interesting paper, but people won't take any notice of you because you don't have formal geological qualifications, and so that challenged me, and eventually

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I resigned my position and went back to the university and studied geology.

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Basically, you come up to speed with all the latest thinking, you rub shoulders with the lecturers and geologists right across the country, and also when you do your studies, you come to understand how geological research proceeds, the difference between facts and interpretation, and so I think there's no problem with being an adequate defender of it, and let's have a discussion about the issues.

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Amen. Well, what is flood geology, if you could explain that? Well, flood geology, the word flood would refer to Noah's Flood in the

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Bible, and it's basically it is a geology, or looking at geology, or interpreting the geological structures of the earth within the assumption that Noah's Flood was an event that actually happened, so that's basically it.

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As a matter of fact, the very first geologists were flood geologists. One of the earliest geologists was a guy called

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Nicholas Steno, and he lived in the 1600s, and he wrote a very powerful book called the

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Prodromus, which was talking about comments of a solid body within a solid body, and he developed the principles of stratigraphy, not all of them, but the main ones, and he's regarded as being one of the pioneers of modern geology.

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The principles of stratigraphy give relative dating, which is what was discussed yesterday, you know, about taking out your cousin and that sort of thing, but relative dating is determining the actual what came first, what came second, what came third, as far as the rocks were concerned.

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So Nicholas Steno did that, and in his book, he actually interprets the area around Tuscany from within a flood perspective, and there's an article on creation .com

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where I discuss, go through what he said step by step by step, and so his model that he used is actually basically the same as what

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I developed so many hundred years later, and so the early geologists were flood geologists, and it was the secular geologists who came in in the late 1700s, early 1800s, that's when the change of philosophy took place, and it was a political change in that there were people who were reacting against the church, wanting to get away from the influence of the church, and they developed this new geological philosophy, which basically, they really won the day politically, and that's what basically geologists follow today, this new philosophy.

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Now, you listened to yesterday's broadcast that we had with Dr.

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Greg Davidson. Could you give an overview of your response to that interview?

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Okay, well, some of the material, whenever we're discussing as geologists, there are many things that we have in common, and so the evidence, the geological evidence we have in common, and so we can come to agreement on that.

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The difference is our interpretation of the evidence, that's the first thing, and the other difference is interpretation of the

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Bible. Now, Greg, when he accepts the old age position that geologists push forward, he then has to come up with a new way of interpreting the

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Bible, because the Bible is so plain that God created in six days, about 6 ,000 years ago, and anybody that reads that, that's the impression that you get.

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The only reason you would think otherwise is because outside pressures, and that's geological pressures.

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So, I thought his biblical response was not a good approach to the

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Bible, and the key issue or the key event that really was not discussed yesterday was the flood.

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So, when you're talking about flood geology, you really need to talk about the flood and Noah's flood, and it's quite an amazing account that's given in the

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Bible about it, and so once you start with that, it makes a big difference. Yeah, and I definitely intend to discuss that a lot with you today,

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God willing. Now, just out of curiosity, how would you respond to an old earth creationist, or even a geologist, a secular geologist, who would say that the plain reading of the data that we discover through geological studies is so plain that the only reason that you would come to a different conclusion than the old earth is because of your biblical presuppositions?

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Kind of what you said about the secular or old earth geologist in reverse, you know, where the presupposition of the scripture is guiding the geologist, the young earth geologist, in such a way where he is disregarding data or twisting data in order to fit his biblical paradigm.

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If how would you respond to somebody making that accusation? Well, I'd say, first of all, that geology is one of those sciences which, it's different from many of the operational sciences in that we need to understand things that happened in the past.

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So in geology, you come and you look at rocks in, say, a road cut, there may be minerals that you look at, and so geologists look at things under microscopes, and it doesn't matter who you are, you can come to agreement on what you can actually observe.

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So that's the part of geology which is observable, which is experimental, which is, there's no argument over what you actually observe.

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Then the geologist wants to know what happened in the past.

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How did this get here? And so he does not have access to the past because he can't go back in time.

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So he has to invent a story, and it's the invention of that story that is the subjective area, and it depends on what you believe as to what story you invent.

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And so a geologist who believes the Bible and believes in Noah's flood would develop a story around Noah's flood and around those events.

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A geologist who doesn't believe in Noah's flood, and that's really the philosophy that came in in the 1800s, it was a very strong decision that the geologists made that must not discuss any process that we can't observe today, so you don't see global floods happening today.

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And so it was a willful dismissal of the event of the flood in the Bible. So they then look for ways of explaining things not using

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Noah's flood, and they use processes which we can observe today. And that really doesn't work.

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It's been tried for, since the person who really popularized this view was a lawyer, so he was not qualified as a geologist.

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Nobody could be qualified as a geologist back in the early 1800s. His name was

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Charles Lyell, and he wrote a book called Principles of Geology, and the subtitle of that book was

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Principles of Geology. It said an attempt to explain the past history of our planet, so what happened in the past, by reference to causes now in operation, by just looking at what we see happening today.

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And at least his subtitle was humble in that he said it was an attempt to explain, and so he had the same issue as to, he was trying to shoehorn the geology into his belief that there never was a global flood, and that everything can be explained by things we see happening today.

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So no matter who you are, you have to start with a story, start with a narrative, and you either start with a naturalistic narrative that nothing ever happened different in the past, or you say, well,

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I believe the Bible records true history of the world. You start with that. So it's not fair to sort of accuse one side of one thing and not realize that you're doing the same yourself.

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Before Reverend Buzz Taylor gives his question or comment, I just wanted to say something in regard to something that you just mentioned, which

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I found profound. It seems to me that, ironically, aren't those that are young earth creationist scientists, those who are opposed to evolution, or at least to Darwinian evolution, aren't they the ones that are typically using observable science, things that we can even approve through experimentation and so on, whereas the old earth folk and especially the secular scientists and the

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Darwinian evolutionists in particular, when it comes to evolution, they're doing a lot of guessing, and they're doing a lot of story inventing from the past that they have no observable proof that it occurs today, and specifically involving the evolution of man from lower life forms and so on.

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I mean, aren't they the ones denying observable science? Well, certainly they hit a problem.

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Whenever they hit a problem or something that contradicts doesn't work, it won't make them change their view.

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They will say, oh, okay, there must be some other way that this works, so they will look for another way of trying to shoehorn the evidence into their philosophy.

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When they talk about what happened in the past, that's absolutely true, what you say, that they didn't observe it happen.

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Nobody was there. They're just making it up. The evidence exists in the present.

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We can all observe that, but the story is about the past. Now, for a person who's a creationist, they too use the evidence in the present, but we use a story about the past, which we believe, and which there's a good basis for saying this is an actual story, which there were people present, and it's been written down, and so there's a very strong basis for saying we think the story is that the biblical account is accurate.

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It's a good basis for being able to understand the past. Okay, Rev. Buzz Taylor had... Yes, you did mention already that we're all presented with the same facts, the same evidence.

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The question is, how are we going to view the evidence? And I think that it should at least, we should be aware that, for example,

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Peter told us to sanctify the Lord Jesus Christ in our hearts and always be ready to give an answer for the reason of the hope that lies within us.

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We have to start from the point that God cannot lie, and we want to look...

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There's this idea that you can just kind of, everybody go neutral now. Now let's all look at the facts and let them tell us what actually happened, but nobody approaches it neutral.

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They don't. We don't. It has... You're talking about presuppositionalism. Yes, exactly.

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That's what I'm talking about, but I'm talking as it relates to creation here, because yes, as Taz just said, some look at the facts and say, well, this is what

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I see. Others look at the facts, this is what I see. But we are commanded to sanctify the

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Lord Jesus in our hearts first, and then look at the evidence. And I believe that to try to let any other science dictate our theology is not sanctifying the

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Lord Jesus Christ in our hearts. And do you have any response, Taz? Yes, I agree with that.

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You have to start with something. Everybody has to start with something. And so basically, when you talk about geology, you start with what the

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Word of God says. It talks about creation. It talks about people that lived before the flood.

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It talks about the flood and the Torah Bible. So it's all documented there.

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And so you start with that. Now, geologists, you know, I've had people say, you know, if you went to the rocks, you'd never get that story out of the rocks.

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And I say, absolutely, you would not get it out the rocks. But when you start with that, it makes sense.

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And there's so many amazing insights that come out, because you start with what really happened, with what's really true.

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And Charlie Liebert has a question or a comment, but I'm going to let him get to that after we return from the break, because I don't want to cut you off in mid -sentence.

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And even before I get to Charlie's question, I'm just going to email you a listener question and have you respond to it after the break, and then

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Charlie can follow up after that. I have Ted in Tuscaloosa, Alabama, who says, following up on Chris's earlier question,

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I want to ask if there are any non -believing scientists who have bought into your model.

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If so, what can you tell us about those points of agreement?

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If not, how do you deal with the logical implication that only Christian believers can really understand geology and study it properly?

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The same would also have to be true for oceanography and seismology and dendrology and plate tectonics, astronomy, paleontology, and genetics.

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Can you see how both old Earth creationists and non -believers could be skeptical about the level of conspiracy over hundreds of years that would be necessary according to the young Earth creationist account?

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And I'm going to be emailing this, because obviously a very long question slash comment that Ted from Tuscaloosa gave us.

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I'm going to be emailing this to you, so over the break, you can mull it over, okay? Dr. Walker? Yes, that sounds good.

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All right, and we're going to a break right now. If anybody would like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

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And of course, Charlie Lieber, don't forget what you are going to bring up. We'll get to you and we'll get to you when we return.

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Again, as I said, the email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com,

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C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

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Please give us your first name, your city and state of residence, your country of residence if you live outside of the

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USA, and don't go away. We are going to be right back with Dr.

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Taz Walker as he continues to present his Young Earth creationist position. Iron Sharpens Iron welcomes

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Pastor's Study from Chris Arnsen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio if you happen to call into his program.

35:27

We are now back with our guest, Dr. Taz Walker of Creation Ministries International, CMI, in our defense of a young earth.

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This is the second and last day of a two -day discussion on the age of the earth, and when I say last day, that doesn't mean

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I'll never have a discussion on it again. That just means the last of the two days that we had scheduled with a young earth defender, which is being followed by yesterday's defense of an old earth by an old earth creationist,

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Dr. Greg Davidson. If you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

36:08

chrisarnsen at gmail .com. And before I have you answer our listener's question, and before I actually reread it, which

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I am going to do for the sake of our listeners, since you now have it in front of you, can you tell our listeners something about, this is something

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I should have asked you at the beginning of the program, can you tell our listeners something about Creation Ministries International, CMI?

36:30

Yes, Creation Ministries International, it's an organization, there's a number of sister organizations in countries around the world.

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In the U .S. there's one at Atlanta, Georgia. The website is creation .com, a very simple website, creation .com.

36:48

There's a ministry in Canada, they're in Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, U .K.

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and Singapore. So there's, Creation Ministries publish a lot of books on this.

37:00

There's a network with scientists, PhD scientists all around the world, and we have a family magazine, it's called

37:08

Creation. And it's a very, it's an amazing magazine, and we, so many people write to us and say how much that's helped them.

37:16

We have a journal, which is a technical discussion where creationists discuss issues backwards and forwards called

37:25

Journal of Creation. And a lot of people really find that helpful, but the magazine is by far the biggest help to people.

37:35

And Creation Ministries, we have speakers who go to churches all around the world, and anybody if they would like to have a speaker in their church, basically to answer these questions, provide information, just go to creation .com

37:50

and you could be able to connect in and get a speaker to your church, somebody to speak there.

37:56

Great, and we'll be repeating that contact information later. And I'm going to read you a question now, and another guest that I had on my program recently,

38:05

Pastor Jeremy Walker, is probably wondering why on earth I emailed him this question, because I did by accident before I emailed it to you, because of the last name being the same.

38:16

But as our listener in Tuscaloosa, Alabama wrote in, Ted, he says, following up on Chris's earlier question,

38:23

I wanted to ask if there are any non -believing scientists who have bought into your model?

38:29

If so, what can you tell us about those points of agreement? If not, how do you deal with the logical implication that only

38:36

Christian believers can really understand geology and study it properly? The same would also have to be true with oceanography, seismology, dendrology, plate tectonics, astronomy, paleontology, and genetics.

38:51

Can you see how both old earth creationists and non -believers could be skeptical about the level of conspiracy over hundreds of years that would be necessary according to the young earth creationist account?

39:09

Yeah, well that's an interesting question, and I can understand why people would think that.

39:17

I'll just make a couple of points about it. Basically, the first point is, it's not just my model, it's really, we're talking about Bible history.

39:29

The God created, it's about the global flood, so it's a biblical history. And so the question is, did that happen as the

39:37

Bible says or not? And the Bible reveals a lot of things in it.

39:43

And basically, a lot of people who are non -believers can adopt biblical philosophy in various areas of their life.

39:53

So even for science to work, for example, even for science to work, and it's only really arisen in the

39:59

West, it didn't arise in any other countries, and it arose after the Reformation, where there were various philosophical principles which were widely believed, which allowed science to arise.

40:14

And those things were like the fact that there is a God who is logical, who created, and that we are created in his image.

40:21

We have the ability to be able to think and reason, because God has given us that ability.

40:28

The world is rational. The world is not capricious. And so these philosophical assumptions need to be there before people can practice science.

40:42

So a non -believer can have those assumptions and can be quite successful in it, because they've actually taken the principles from a biblical worldview.

40:52

Now, there are other principles that are very important for science. One is that you report the truth, that you make observations carefully, and you are honest and truthful in the things that you report in your papers.

41:06

And these days, there's a major issue in science in that there are people who are corrupt, who are reporting things which are incorrect, who are wanting to get grants, who are fudging things and evidence.

41:20

And that's a major issue in science to do with peer review, and you can sort of find stuff discussed on the web.

41:29

So these principles are universal principles to do with reality. And everybody, whether you are a believer in Christ or not, if you follow these principles, it will have an effect on your life.

41:43

So that's the first thing. And the thing is, the global flood, did that happen or did it not?

41:50

And if people are studying geology and they don't believe the flood occurred when in fact it did, there's no way that they can get the right answer.

41:58

And so they have to deal with what actually happened. And the interesting thing is, I hope

42:05

I don't go on too long on this. No, you can go on as long as you'd like. Okay. When this philosophy came in, pioneered by this guy, principles of geology, and this idea that we just look at natural processes, the idea that it was that catastrophes, any idea of a catastrophe was taboo.

42:30

It was basically ruled out of court and geologists were not basically allowed to talk about it.

42:37

It was just culturally inappropriate to talk about catastrophe. Whereas people who believed in Noah's flood said that there must have been catastrophe.

42:46

You'd expect to find it. And it wasn't until really the 1960s, that geologists started to openly acknowledge that the evidence pointed to catastrophe.

42:59

And so there's been a return to catastrophe called neocatastrophism. And a fellow in the

43:05

UK, a geologist, Derek Ager, has written about that, the nature of the stratigraphical record, and he wrote a book called

43:13

The New Catastrophism. And so there's now been a return to that, something which flood geologists all along have said that catastrophe, the evidence for catastrophe is plain and it's about time geologists acknowledge it.

43:31

And so every area of study, if you get the basics wrong, you can't really come to proper conclusions.

43:38

And we could go into many areas of geology where the uniformitarian philosophy leads to incorrect conclusions.

43:49

As a matter of fact, one of them is to do with dinosaur fossils.

43:57

And it was only in the 1990s that a lady by the name of Mary Schweitzer discovered that dinosaur bones, fossils, actually contained tissues and blood cells in them, which was an absolutely astounding idea.

44:14

And she was mocked. She was working in a normal secular geological environment.

44:22

And so she was mocked for a decade until she found other evidence. Now, for a person who believes the dinosaurs are millions of years old, 70 million years old, they find this astounding.

44:36

But for a person who believes in Noah's flood and that it happened four and a half thousand years ago, they say, well,

44:43

I'm not surprised. And so that's just an example of how, you know, flood geology has various predictions, various expectations, which are unfolding as more information is found.

44:59

But the point is, it's not a conspiracy. It's a philosophy. He talks about the level of conspiracy.

45:06

Everybody is thinking the same way. And there is a certain level of conspiracy.

45:12

And that's documented in a DVD called Expelled. That's a very powerful

45:17

DVD. Yeah, I've seen that. Excellent. And there's also a level of conspiracy.

45:23

It's documented in a book by Jerry Bergman called to do with,

45:28

I can't think of the name, but it documents people who have been tossed out of their jobs in science because they believed in creation.

45:39

Yeah, in fact, I plan on having Jerry back on the program to discuss that. Very powerful. So there's definitely a level of conspiracy, which will throw people out who express different views.

45:52

But, of course, you can get a lot of things right. You know, in geology, geologists are very good observers.

46:00

They're good at documenting things because they're careful, methodical. But then when they come to the interpretations, there's the interpretations.

46:10

Some are reasonable and some are quite plainly wrong. And they acknowledge that there's a problem.

46:17

They can't understand how these things, you know, the processes behind it, because they have ruled out the one event which would explain it, which is

46:27

Noah's Flood. By the way, with the book you were talking about by Jerry Bergman, is that Slaughter of the

46:34

Dissidents? That's it. Slaughter of the Dissidents. Yeah, I'm hoping to get him back on the show to talk about that.

46:41

And by the way, I happen to know, I have proof, actually, that the dinosaurs are not that ancient because I have a black and white, an old black and white photo of the

46:50

Reverend Buzz Taylor riding one at a birthday party. There you go. But anyway...

47:01

Sinclair signed behind me, wasn't there? But Charlie Liebert of sixdaycreation .com

47:07

had either a question or a comment. Two things, Chris, I wanted to mention. The first thing is that last question that Taz Walker implied that old

47:18

Earth was around geologically for a long time. That's not true. Old Earth is relatively new in the terms of the science.

47:26

No. I should have said young Earth's been around a long time. That's exactly right.

47:33

Now, the other comment I wanted to make was on the presuppositions, and this is real important, okay?

47:38

Because the set of presuppositions you start with dictates how you interpret the scientific evidence.

47:45

And our old Earth people appear to take equal value with the presuppositions of biblical truth and the presuppositions of scientific truth.

47:54

And I would say as young Earth creationists, we take the Bible as the truth and then interpret science in light of it.

48:00

That's two very different approaches. That's correct. It's two very different starting points, absolutely.

48:08

But it's basically the same approach, is that you start with your presuppositions. We start with the

48:14

Bible, and then we use that as our interpretation. Exactly right.

48:21

And it's a very powerful way of looking at the world. If you look at that, for example, an atheist could never accept any form of creation because it applies to God.

48:32

So the presuppositions, in a sense, dictate how you interpret the evidence itself.

48:38

We could both go stand on the rim of Grand Canyon, and I'd say, wow, look at that, what Noah's Flood did.

48:43

And the old Earth guy would say, look at that, millions of years. But the canyon doesn't tell you.

48:49

It's the interpretation. Yes, there are no labels. Well, there are now. People have put labels on it.

48:55

But when it was originally there, there were no labels saying how old different layers were. And exactly right, the presuppositions lead to different conclusions.

49:05

And the idea of an old Earth comes from naturalistic presupposition. That is, if things are going to make themselves, you need lots of time.

49:16

And so back in the 1800s, at the time of Darwin and another guy by the name of Lord Kelvin, they're talking about the age of the

49:27

Earth. And Lord Kelvin, a physicist, was saying, well, it can't be older than 20 million years. And Darwin said, that is

49:35

Lord Kelvin, is really a problem to me because I need a vast amount of time before the

49:40

Cambrian for my theory. So to have things evolve by natural processes, you need long ages.

49:49

And so the old Earth is absolutely essential to evolution and atheism and naturalism.

49:55

A young Earth, well, we go with the young Earth because that's what the Bible says.

50:01

And after the Reformation, everybody believed that the Earth was young. They just read the

50:06

Bible and it's as plain as day that the Earth got created in six days. And as a matter of fact, all the scientists believed it.

50:15

Encyclopedia Britannica, the first edition at the age of the

50:20

Earth, it wasn't even 6 ,000 years old, some 4 ,000 BC was the date of creation of the

50:28

Earth. They had a picture of Noah's Ark, a drawing of it, a sketch. And so it was widely accepted, even in academic circles, not just in the churches, that the world was young and that the biblical history was true.

50:44

And that changed. And it was geology. It was this new geological philosophy which drove that change.

50:51

And people wanted it that way because they didn't really want to sort of start with the Bible. And Reverend Buzz Taylor has a question or comment.

50:57

Well, you had just mentioned about the, it was recently that the various rock strata were given titles and names and dates.

51:09

It was brought up on the program yesterday about the geological timetable. And I'm going to butcher this,

51:17

I'm sure, but years ago, I read a short paper put out by the

51:22

Institute for Creation Research about that calendar, the rock strata, the geological timetable, that it was only in a few places in the world where you could actually find it in the order that they claim and that it's been reversed and missing and just totally different everywhere else.

51:40

And this was brought up yesterday and somewhat explained. But I was wondering if you could address that issue as well.

51:48

Since you have taken geology, how do you interpret the geological timetable?

51:54

In fact, we're going to have you repeat your question when we return from the break because I don't want to cut Dr. Taz Walker off in mid -sentence.

52:02

So if anybody else would like to join us on the air as well with a question, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

52:09

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, city and state and country of residence if you live outside of the

52:16

USA. And by the way, I forgot to mention that our listener in Tuscaloosa, Alabama, Ted, has won a

52:23

DVD from Creation Ministries International called Evolution's Achilles Heel.

52:29

Fifteen PhD scientists explain evolution's fatal flaws in areas claimed to be its greatest strength.

52:36

So keep an eye out for that, Ted, in Tuscaloosa, Alabama. And we'll be right back after these messages, so do not go away.

52:49

Charles Hedden Spurgeon once said, Give yourself unto reading. The man who never reads will never be read.

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You need to read. Solid Ground Christian Books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the

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Iron Sharpens Iron Radio is sponsored by Harvey Cedars, a year -round Bible conference and retreat center nestled on the

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U .S. Ministers' Conference of the Banner of Truth is going to be held at Elizabethtown College in Elizabethtown, Pennsylvania, and the theme of the conference is

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And then, following that, on June 22nd through the 23rd, Sermon Audio is having their

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Fellowship Conference New England is being held, and the speakers at that event include

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Don Curran, who is the Eastern European Coordinator with HeartCry Ministries Society—Missionary Society, I'm sorry—in

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Pastor of Providence Chapel in Denton, Texas, Jesse Barrington, Pastor of Grace Life Church in Dallas, Texas, and Nate Pickowitz, Pastor of Harvest Bible Church in Gilmanton Ironworks, New Hampshire.

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Speakers include Ian Hamilton, Kent Hughes, Peter Jones, and Scott Oliphant. If you would like more details on that conference in Quakertown, Pennsylvania, which is going to be held at the

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alliancenet .org, click on Events, and then click on For Still Our Ancient Foe, the

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Quakertown Conference on Reform Theology. And then finally, last but not least, next year in January, the

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G3 Conference is returning to Atlanta, Georgia from the 18th through the 20th of January.

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Speakers include Paul Washer, Stephen Lawson, Votie Baucom, H .B. Charles, Jr., the new president of the

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Believe it or not, many more. If you'd like to join us at the G3 Conference in Atlanta, Georgia in January of next year, go to g3conference .com,

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01:08:18

chrisarnson at gmail .com. Now we return to our discussion with Dr. Taz Walker of Creation Ministries International, also known as CMI.

01:08:27

We are talking about the Genesis Flood, its lasting global impact, which proves the earth is young.

01:08:34

He is defending a young earth creation position. And before the break, Reverend Buzz Taylor, if you could summarize your question so Dr.

01:08:42

Walker can now answer it. Yes, I would like you to respond. You heard the discussion yesterday concerning the geological calendar and his explanation of knowing the age of the layers and all that.

01:08:57

And I do remember reading an article years ago that that whole model is kind of amiss because of missing strata and reverse strata and that the order of strata that we have been accustomed to hearing through the various eras and periods is actually only found in like two different places on earth.

01:09:20

Could you respond to that? Yeah, that's quite an interesting question and a lot of people are confused about the geologic column.

01:09:33

The geologic column was developed in the early 1800s as the new geological academics got going with some of the early geologists and as they mapped things in the field and looked at things, they started putting the rocks in different places.

01:09:56

So there's a good article on creation .com called the geologic column is a general order of the flood process, but with many exceptions.

01:10:10

So you can use the geologic column to get an idea for where things sit in a reasonable way, but you always have to be very careful for exceptions, for things which are anomalies, things which are in the wrong place.

01:10:27

And geologists do this all the time. So basically the column is like a table that's drawn on a piece of paper.

01:10:37

Can I illustrate it like that? It's like a box with little things written on a piece of paper.

01:10:43

It's a theoretical construct. It's like a filing cabinet. If you've got a filing cabinet which has got all these different files in it, which have all got names, somebody's written names on these files.

01:10:57

And so when you get a document, you look at the document and you have to decide which category it fits in.

01:11:04

And so you then put it into the filing cabinet and that's what the geologic column is. It's a theoretical construct with all these names on it, which is reasonably logical.

01:11:14

And then when geologists go into the field, they look at the rocks and then they have to decide where do these rocks belong in the field.

01:11:21

So the rocks in the field don't have the label on them, as I've said, and geologists decide. So one geologist, you know, young guys out in South America looking at various rocks, he might put these rocks into a block called the

01:11:38

Permian in South America. And then somebody comes along, you know, five years later and says, that doesn't fit there.

01:11:45

It doesn't make sense at all. And he might shift those and relabel them on his map down into the

01:11:51

Cambrian. And so, you know, they shuffle the rocks around to get them to where they sort of can make sense.

01:11:59

So it's not the rocks in the field. It's a theoretical construct of the rocks in the field.

01:12:06

It gives a general order, but there's many exceptions. And the basis in which they put the rocks into the column is different from where you would put the rocks based on flood geology.

01:12:18

So in the geological model, which I developed, it looked at what you would expect to find.

01:12:26

And so what we do is we go and look at the information which the geologists report in the literature, you know, from South America, from China, and we search through that.

01:12:37

And then we can decide that really belongs, that's as the floodwaters were rising, that's as it's reaching towards its peak, or this is as the floodwaters were receding.

01:12:48

And so we can look at that. And generally, in rough figures, most of the geologic column, this is really sort of just round figures, but it gives people a picture, most of the geologic column, as you come up from the bottom, as you come up the page, represents the waters of Noah's flood rising.

01:13:10

So when you reach what they call the Cretaceous, the Jurassic and the Cretaceous, which is dinosaurs, that's as the floodwaters are reaching their peak, dinosaurs were trying to escape the flood, they were being overwhelmed.

01:13:24

And then finally, they're all buried. And then the floodwaters covering the whole earth, and then the waters flow off the earth.

01:13:32

So things after the Cretaceous, basically, as the floodwaters were receding, and that was a period of erosion on the continents.

01:13:41

And it was only after the floodwaters had mostly receded that there was sort of stuff deposited on the continents.

01:13:49

And then there's a little bit that's post -flood. So I don't know if that's of any help, but there's some articles on creation .com.

01:13:58

If you think of the Hawaiian island Maui, M -A -U -I, there was a reader wrote in and asked about how does this explain from the flood?

01:14:10

And so I've got a table in there as to how to reinterpret the geologic column to within a biblical worldview.

01:14:18

And people find that very, very helpful. And we have a listener in Massapequa, Long Island, James, who asks, is there any area of the earth that is not showing evidence that they were affected negatively by a global flood?

01:14:44

Not really. The Bible says that the whole earth was destroyed. And so when people look at the earth, you might see a beautiful landscape, beautiful mountains, snow in the mountains.

01:14:55

People are moved by that and think about God's creation. But in actual fact, those mountains are what emerged from the waters of Noah's flood.

01:15:05

So the landscape, everything that we see is basically a Noah's flood. There are parts of it.

01:15:11

There are some small parts of the earth's surface which formed after the flood.

01:15:18

Some creationists think that there are some parts which are the remnant of the creation rocks and others think that they were all destroyed.

01:15:28

So there's a bit of discussion, debate, ongoing research amongst creationists about just where everything fits.

01:15:37

But no, the whole of the earth was affected by the flood. Well, thank you,

01:15:43

James, in Massapequa. And you have won a free DVD titled

01:15:48

Evolution's Achilles Heels. Thanks to our friends at Creation Ministries International.

01:15:55

This DVD provides 15 PhD scientists who explain evolution's fatal flaws in areas claimed to be its greatest strengths.

01:16:05

So thank you for listening and providing your question. Now, why is it that it seems that old earth creationists and secular scientists dismiss the idea of a global flood?

01:16:17

Why is it that they dismiss it? Well, there's probably various reasons.

01:16:23

We already discussed something of the persecution that occurs at universities for anybody that has a view that God created.

01:16:35

And so if there's any evidence of design or any reference to design, people can be, they can have their careers affected, they can lose grants.

01:16:46

And so part of it then is the peer pressure that the people do not want to rock the boat, do not want to be seen as being odd, they want to be seen as being academic.

01:16:57

And it's because there's so much, the academic, the general culture within the geological society is that millions of years and that sort of thing, that people just don't want to go against that.

01:17:14

There are many geologists who do believe in the flood, who do work in academia and also professionally in industry who believe in the flood.

01:17:25

And I've met quite a number who have read about my model.

01:17:32

They apply the model in their work, but they don't come out publicly because they would be discriminated against.

01:17:42

So that's the case. So I think that's one of the factors. I think one of the factors is that I know there was a very prominent church man in Australia who sort of held to an old earth position, and he hadn't really thought it through, and he didn't really want to discuss it.

01:18:02

But his main justification for holding that position is he says, well,

01:18:08

I have good friends who tell me that evolution and long ages are true.

01:18:14

So it was based on what his friends told him, and he hadn't really looked at it himself.

01:18:21

So that can be the case. And I think the resurgence of the modern creationist movement really came about with the publication of the book by Whitcomb and Morris in 1961 called

01:18:37

The Genesis Flood. Now, there'd been a lot of people who, there was in the

01:18:43

United Kingdom a thing called the evolution protest movement, and people were putting up examples of design, showing that God, they know that there is a

01:18:53

God who created. But that didn't really have an effect on people's thinking because it didn't provide a narrative.

01:19:02

What The Genesis Flood does is it provides the narrative by which scientists can interpret the world.

01:19:11

And so if you're an astronomer, it provides information for that. If you're a geologist, provides information for that.

01:19:18

If you are interested in humans and, you know, where people and where people, the cultures like, like Egypt and Australian Aboriginals, American Indians, if you're interested in that, well, the flood provides a framework for thinking about that.

01:19:36

So that's the power of The Genesis Flood is that it provides this way of thinking.

01:19:43

It provides a whole narrative. So that was very successful.

01:19:49

From 1961 onwards, you had the development of the various creationist organizations, Institute for Creationist Research, the

01:19:57

Creation Research Society quarterly came out. There were the various creationist organizations arose in Australia, and they've been very successful in influencing people.

01:20:11

And so in the last decade, you've had the, you've had a number of long earth groups have come up in the evangelical church to,

01:20:22

I think it's been to counter the effects of the creationist movement that's been going on.

01:20:30

So you've had Bio Logos, then you have the gentleman that we spoke to yesterday, that group that he started, and there's a number of other groups which have got long age teachings.

01:20:44

And I think it's partly in reaction to try to hold to the long ages within evangelical circles without having to take that untenable, sort of unpopular, you know, position of a young earth six days.

01:21:01

We have Sue in Dauphin County, Pennsylvania, who wants to know, I know that you are not an old earth creationist, but a young earth creationist, but I was wondering if you knew why old earth creationists insist that dinosaurs died off millions of years before the arrival of mankind, then old earth, in my opinion, would not seem to require that the dinosaurs disappeared, so I'm puzzled by this.

01:21:32

Yeah, that's an interesting one. Well, see, the old earth, basically, when you think about it, people who hold to an old earth, where is their authority?

01:21:45

Where do they get their information? How do they understand things? The only thing they can do is just take what the old earth geologists, the secular geologists, say.

01:21:56

So they really can't, they don't have a way of critically evaluating what is being presented in academic circles and saying, well, that's right, and that's wrong.

01:22:08

So that's what's said in the academic circles, that's what's said in geological circles, the long age circles, is that dinosaurs died out 65 million years ago, and there were no dinosaurs because humans evolved, you know, supposedly started 7 million years ago, something like that.

01:22:29

So that's why the old ages, they would just, the old age people, they would just take what the prevailing secular scientific view is, they'd just accept that without question, because they don't have a basis for critically questioning it.

01:22:46

And thank you, Sue in Dauphin County, you have also won a DVD titled,

01:22:52

Evolution's Achilles Heels, 15 PhD Scientists Explain Evolution's Fatal Flaws in Areas Claimed to Be Its Greatest Strengths.

01:23:00

Thanks to our friends at Creation Ministries International, and of course our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com,

01:23:08

cv for Cumberland Valley, bbs for BibleBookService .com, are shipping out all of our winners, their

01:23:14

DVDs, books, Bibles, and anything else they win on Iron Chirp and Zion Radio. And we thank

01:23:19

Todd and Patty Jennings, owners of cvbbs .com, for being faithful supporters of Iron Chirp and Zion Radio.

01:23:26

And Charlie Liebert of sixdaycreation .com has a comment or question. Yeah, I wanted to comment on Sue's question just now.

01:23:33

One of the things that's most important about that is the fact that all that secular geology is based on the presupposition of evolutionary time frame.

01:23:42

That's where they're beginning. Okay, they're beginning with that. So as a result of that, the dinosaurs have to fit in that in that time frame.

01:23:49

So the evolutionists are going to interpret it. That's the way to interpret the geology. Yeah, it seemed it would seem odd to me, since globally, there are stories of written by people from nearly every area of the globe about dragons.

01:24:09

And if dinosaurs existed, along with men at those periods of time, the descriptions of dragons they give make sense as being real.

01:24:19

Not that they have every aspect of the folklore that that arose out of dragons.

01:24:27

But the fact that they were written as reports as though they were actually beats that existed.

01:24:33

Wasn't it even the legend of St. George? Didn't he? Yes, slew the dragon and all that.

01:24:40

Now, I'm not trying to justify and turn into reality and fact, historical fact, every depiction of a dragon from the past.

01:24:50

But doesn't it make sense that if a human being saw dinosaurs were shocked out of their minds about what these beasts were, that a dragon legend could arise out of that.

01:25:01

There are there are carvings and cave paintings in both France and in the western US that show pictures of dinosaurs as if the people had seen them.

01:25:10

And there's also the Ica carvings from South America. And Dr. Walker, you have anything to say about that?

01:25:16

That's right. So once again, we come back to the different ways of starting the different starting points.

01:25:23

So when you start with evolution, they come up with the idea that dinosaurs died out 65 million years ago.

01:25:29

And so basically, humans never saw a dinosaur. So that's that's the idea.

01:25:35

When you start with the Bible, and you think, well, we have the dinosaurs fit into this. That's the question that comes up.

01:25:41

Where did dinosaurs fit into this? How can the Bible be true? Because it doesn't mention dinosaurs. The Leviathan and the behemoth.

01:25:49

Yes, but it does. You have to think of dinosaur like any other animal. So when God made all the animals that lived on the land that was on day six, that would have included the dinosaurs, the elephants, the kangaroos.

01:26:00

So dinosaurs were made on day six. Then the question is, well, did dinosaurs not go on the ark?

01:26:06

No, they would have gone on the ark, because Noah was commanded to take two of every kind of air breathing land dwelling animal that included the dinosaurs.

01:26:14

He would have taken little ones on the ark and not the great big ones, the young ones, and even the biggest dinosaurs were once little.

01:26:23

So that would have gone on the ark. And then the question comes up, well, why don't we hear about dinosaurs? And that's just exactly what

01:26:30

Charlie said. There was a Charlie that, well, we do, but they're called dragons. And when you look at the descriptions of dragons, you can actually identify in many cases, the actual dinosaur that they're talking about from those descriptions.

01:26:45

And it's quite remarkable. And so that just shows, that's an example of how starting with a biblical worldview, you then lead to the idea that, well, maybe people saw dinosaurs, and maybe where did they see them?

01:26:59

Oh, maybe these dragons. And then when you look at that, that gives you research insights to actually start exploring and analyzing these stories about dragons.

01:27:09

And so that's just something of the power of the biblical worldview. And in fact, as I was saying,

01:27:15

I don't know if you heard me, the leviathan and the behemoth right in the scriptures are really vivid examples or descriptions of what could be dinosaurs.

01:27:24

Yes, because behemoth, it talks about, you know, actually many Bibles where they have little comments and notes in the

01:27:31

Bible that says about behemoth, you know, they don't know what it is. And they say, well, maybe it's an elephant.

01:27:37

Maybe it's a hippopotamus. That's right. But the description of behemoth, it talks about its tail, tail like a cedar.

01:27:49

Right. It's got this big, big tail. And a hippopotamus doesn't have a big tail, nor does an elephant.

01:27:55

But it fits with a brachiosaur, something like that. A sauropod dinosaur, big legs, big tail, big, big long neck.

01:28:03

And so there's a very good case that behemoth was actually a dinosaur.

01:28:08

And we're going to a final break right now. And I'm going to email you a question from our listener

01:28:15

Seth in Greensboro, North Carolina, so that you have it right in front of you.

01:28:20

And you could answer it when we come back. But Seth in Greensboro, North Carolina says, could the guest explain how they reconcile starlight and the age of the earth?

01:28:32

Most old earth creationists use this all the time as a strong point for their case, advocating for an old earth due to the time it takes for star rays to reach the earth.

01:28:44

And Seth's question will be answered by Dr. Walker when we return. So don't go away.

01:28:51

God willing, we're going to be right back with our conclusion of our interview with Taz Walker on the young earth that we live in.

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01:32:36

Welcome back. This is Chris Sorensen, if you just tuned us in. Our guest today has been for the full two hours with a little less than a half hour to go,

01:32:42

Dr. Taz Walker of Creation Ministries International, known as CMI. We are talking about the

01:32:48

Genesis Flood, its lasting global impact, which proves the earth is young, and our guest is defending a young earth creationist position.

01:32:57

And before the break, we had a question that I am looking for right now, as a matter of fact.

01:33:04

The question which I emailed you just moments ago, Dr. Walker, was, could the guest explain how they reconcile, and I guess he's assuming or he's speaking about the old earth creationists, how they reconcile, or perhaps he's talking about you as well, they reconcile star light and the age of the earth.

01:33:29

Most old earth creationists use this all the time as a strong point for their case, advocating for an old earth due to the time it takes for star rays to reach the earth.

01:33:40

Dr. Walker? Yeah. Yeah, well, I don't know why old earth creationists think that it's an argument that supports old earth creation, because the

01:33:52

Big Bang, the old earth, billion year Big Bang model has got a star light problem.

01:33:58

Most people don't know this, but the Big Bang supposedly, supposedly took place about 14 billion years ago, and yet the universe is much larger, some, you know, 200, 300 billion years across.

01:34:14

And so there's not enough time for light to travel across the universe within the Big Bang model, so they got this problem.

01:34:21

And yet there's the background radiation, which indicates that the temperature of the universe is very even, highly even across across the universe.

01:34:31

And so they recognize they have a problem, and they don't call it the starlight travel time problem.

01:34:37

They call it the horizon problem. And so they've devised various ways to try to overcome this problem, which they have, and they realize that nobody else does.

01:34:48

So the old earth model has got this problem in it. And they say, well, maybe the light traveled faster in the past.

01:34:55

That's one suggestion that's been made. Another one is they've introduced a thing called the, an inflation into the

01:35:03

Big Bang in which the universe expands many, many, many times faster than the speed of light early in its, in the

01:35:12

Big Bang. So they got, they invoke things which, uh, which, uh, they looking for supernatural miracles where they don't have a supernatural miracle worker.

01:35:22

So that's the issue is that they have a problem about starlight. Now creationists, young earth creationists, there's a number of cosmologists who've done work on this.

01:35:34

And there's, there's a number of very, very promising models, but one very promising one is called time dilation models, which are based on the fact that, you know, we read in the

01:35:46

Bible that God stretched out the heavens, he, he created the expanse and he stretched out space.

01:35:53

And so, and it was done supernaturally, you know, we, we can't avoid the fact that God created supernaturally in those six days.

01:36:01

And, uh, that's what the, the Bible is very clear on that. God spoke and it was so, so if you, but if you take a stretching of space, you can end up with time actually running at different rates at different parts of the universe.

01:36:16

So you could have, you could have time on the earth, just advancing a day or two.

01:36:21

And yet in the distant parts of the universe, advancing hundreds, thousands of millions of years, uh, just because of the effect of, uh, it's to do with gravity and it's to do with, uh, the, uh, the idea of relativity.

01:36:37

Our time is relative to, uh, to where you are in space and the, and the speed at which things travel.

01:36:43

So that's, that's one very promising model. There's a book called starlight and time and the new physics, which explains this in more detail.

01:36:51

There's articles on creation .com, which explain this, but basically it's to do with stretching out of space.

01:36:59

And, uh, that's a, a good way of, um, it's, it's a good model for explaining how distant starlight could have been part of, uh, the original creation and reach the earth during those first six days.

01:37:14

Well, thank you, Seth. And you have a one, we were all out of the DVDs, but you have one, a copy of the book, the creation answers book.

01:37:22

And that's, uh, that was provided also by our friends at creation ministries international.

01:37:28

So make sure that we have your full mailing address. So CVBBS .com can ship that out to you.

01:37:34

CV for Cumberland Valley, BBS for Bible book service .com. Look for that on the return address of the shipping label in the mail.

01:37:41

And hopefully you'll get that in about a week. And Charlie Lieber of six day creation, I think that you wanted to follow up with that question.

01:37:49

Yes, I wanted, well, one other possibility. And that is when God creates, when he creates something, created

01:37:54

Adam in a, in a moment, but Adam had an appearance of being probably an 18 year old, uh, male.

01:38:00

So as a result of that, when God creates things are often fully formed and that's other than the third creation argument for, uh, the starlight question, if God formed it fully formed and he put that light in place from the star to here, then the time dilation doesn't matter at all.

01:38:17

That's right. So that's a, that's a, there are a number of, uh, ways that have been proposed just as the old earth is, uh, you know, people, the big bangers have proposed a number of ways to try to solve the problem.

01:38:31

Uh, there's a number of ways that creationists have suggested. And one is that is that light created in transit and, uh, there's various advantages to that and there's various sort of things that people think not keen on, but that's, there's, there's even other, other models, uh, um, that, uh, that, um, that have been proposed as well.

01:38:53

And I think that some of those are covered in the creation answers book and they're also online. Some of the other models that have been put forward.

01:39:01

The problem with the one recreation of appearance of age is it's not testable. Well, that's right.

01:39:08

It's not testable, but a lot of things are not testable. The big bang is, is not testable.

01:39:14

Exactly. And, uh, so basically it's not falsifiable. Uh, basically any problem is solved by adding extra unknowns into the mix.

01:39:24

And you have things like dark matter can't be observed. It's included to, to solve problems with the big bang.

01:39:32

And then there's another problem to do with, uh, travel time and that's introduced with a dark energy.

01:39:40

And so these, these, uh, very mysterious things are introduced into the model and, uh, there's the people have been looking for them.

01:39:50

Scientists have been looking for this stuff and you read about every now and then about this dark matter and dark energy, but it's just simply a fudge fact to put into soul to salvage the model.

01:40:02

And, uh, and when you think about it, the universe is monstrous. It's absolutely big.

01:40:07

How much do we know about it? Not very much at all. We, uh, and so it's not surprising that there would be some questions which we do not have definitive answers for.

01:40:19

Nobody has definitive answers for them. You said something, you said something very important there that the big bang is not falsifiable because that then takes it out of the realm of science and puts it into a philosophy or a model.

01:40:32

It can't be really rightly called science. That's true. That's correct. And most people don't realize that.

01:40:38

And that's what happens when you, uh, we, they start with a certain position and no matter what you put up, they'll come up with and say, oh yes, that's because, and they'll introduce some extra other thing in there to try to, to, uh, overcome the problem.

01:40:55

We're back to presuppositions again, aren't we? Yeah, that's right. You can't avoid them. Yeah, I know you can't avoid them.

01:41:02

Uh, that's because we are limited. We're finite. We don't know everything.

01:41:08

And so starting from our finite place, we, you know, our limited mind, our limited experience, our limited, uh, you know, how far we can travel and move and what we've seen, we can't understand the universe, but the

01:41:22

God who created it, who is everywhere, who knows everything he can, and then he's revealed the, the things to us in his word, which we would never know otherwise.

01:41:33

And so that it's actually a position where we can have confidence, which is really wonderful.

01:41:39

Uh, we have, uh, Joe in Slovenia who says, please ask

01:41:45

Dr. Walker to address a line of reasoning that I've heard here in Europe. Some atheistic naturalists have said to me that the

01:41:54

Alps are much younger than the Rockies. The reasoning is that the much more jagged and steep

01:42:01

Alps compared to the much more rounded Rockies show far less effect of wearing down over time.

01:42:08

And therefore they must be, must be much younger. They cite this as proof of millions of years, claiming that millions of years would be required to have different mountain ranges across the earth displaying vastly, uh, let's see, displaying vastly different stages of erosion.

01:42:25

Is there any factual basis to this claim? How does the biblical account address this, if at all?

01:42:33

Okay, that's, that's a good question. And that illustrates something that we're coming back to flood geology again.

01:42:40

So within the secular geology, all I think about for erosion is rainfall, precipitation, um, you know, thawing, freezing, thawing, and, and rivers eroding things.

01:42:54

So that's why they come up with this idea that these mountain ranges are young and these mountain ranges are old, but the landscape was not carved that way because the, we read in the

01:43:05

Bible that the whole earth was covered with water. So the Alps in Europe and the, the

01:43:10

Rockies in, uh, they, and the Appalachians in the other side of America on the

01:43:19

East coast over there, these areas were covered by water. The Bible says the whole earth was covered by water.

01:43:26

And so then we read how the water flowed off. It receded off the earth while Noah and every, everybody are on the ark.

01:43:33

And so that's a totally different process for how the landscape was carved.

01:43:39

It's very, very amazing actually. And so the, the Alps of Europe certainly could have emerged late in the flood.

01:43:46

The Rocky mountains, uh, were eroded, uh, were eroded as the floodwaters receded.

01:43:53

The Appalachians had a lot more erosion as the floodwaters were flowing in that direction. So the movement of floodwaters explains the landscapes.

01:44:03

Now there's some very interesting things to do with the, the landscapes.

01:44:09

And there's a book that Michael Ord has published called Flood by Design. And the landscapes have got certain features which are so characteristic point to Noah's flood.

01:44:19

One is flat plateaus where the, where the surfaces are cut incredibly flat. That was when the floodwaters covered the whole of the area.

01:44:28

Uh, and, uh, the, the waters cut the surface flat. Then you have wide valleys with rivers going through them where the river is smaller than the valley.

01:44:39

And that as a valley was carved by floodwaters flowing in large channels.

01:44:45

And you find some of these rivers that flow straight through mountains that they're all over the world where rivers, they actually flow through mountain ranges rather than above around them.

01:44:59

And this is because they were, these, uh, these, uh, water gaps, they call them were carved as the floodwaters were receding.

01:45:08

And as the floodwaters were going down, the water continued to cut these mountain ranges, these water gaps.

01:45:13

So there's a, and you find, uh, uh, lots of rounded boulders on the mountains, on the tops of plateaus, which look like they've been rounded by water as they've been carried along by water.

01:45:27

And this is also another evidence of, um, these, these, uh, gravels, courtside gravels, which have been deposited.

01:45:35

You see them all over North America and to the, um, and around the Rockies to the

01:45:41

West of the Rockies, to the East of the Rockies, you find them in, in Asia, in China, they find these gravels also in Australia.

01:45:49

So these are features of Noah's flood, the retreating waters of Noah's flood, very, very powerful, amazing, um, um, research opportunities for young, young people who've got this sort of, who can understand how to look at the world through biblical eyes.

01:46:07

They've got amazing opportunities to be able to do good geology by looking at the world differently.

01:46:14

Uh, we have, uh, oh, by the way, thank you, uh, Joe in Slovenia, uh, for your question and thank you for giving us an

01:46:22

American address where we are shipping, or should I say CVBBS .com

01:46:28

is shipping your daughter in Georgia, in Georgia, uh, a copy of the book, the creation answers book, which was provided to us by creation ministries international, uh, and we will be, or CVBBS .com

01:46:45

will be shipping that to her in about a week. Thank you for providing that American address, which saves CVBBS .com

01:46:51

a lot of money in shipping costs and keep listening to the program. Uh, we have, uh,

01:46:58

Pastor Sterling Vander Worker of Shepherd's Fellowship in Greensboro, North Carolina, who says, thanks for the show, brother

01:47:06

Chris, and say hi to Charlie and Pastor Buzz for me. And, uh, well,

01:47:12

Reverend Buzz, I should say, he's not pastoring yet. Uh, but, um, the question from Seth is certainly the early readers of the scriptures in 150 to 200

01:47:25

AD would understand Genesis one through three in a literal way.

01:47:31

Would the old earth proponents have any rational foundation for the, the second century readers hold an old earth position?

01:47:44

Uh, would they have any, would the second century readers hold an old earth position?

01:47:50

No, no. It says, would the old earth proponents have any rational foundation for the second century readers holding,

01:47:57

I guess he is using a little bit poor grammar here, uh, the foundation for the second century readers holding an old earth position as I think what he actually meant to type.

01:48:08

Well, it's certainly second century readers. Uh, I'm not quite sure just all the details there, but I do know that after the reformation, that the idea that the earth was, uh, not even 6 ,000 years old, it was just widely believed, but it was not like that in places where the people didn't have the

01:48:27

Bible, uh, in places like in India, where there was the Hindu philosophy and Egypt, where they, you know, they were not

01:48:34

Christian. They didn't have the scriptures as they thought about, you know, endless cycles that went on and on and on forever.

01:48:43

And so, you know, the idea of an older, uh, it, it really, it, it comes for without a knowledge, uh, of what's been revealed to us, uh, in the

01:48:54

Bible and without a knowledge that God created. See, God is able to do that. It's not as if he's not able to create in six days, like he said, and you would never think that he did unless he told us.

01:49:07

So he's told us that he did it. And some people say, uh, some people say, look, when

01:49:14

I get to heaven, I'll ask God and he can tell me what he did. Well, he's already told us in Exodus 20, and this was raised yesterday in Exodus 20, he says that he tells

01:49:24

Moses, he wrote with his own finger in six days, the Lord God made the heavens and the earth and the sea and everything in them and rested on the seventh.

01:49:32

So that ties into our week. And yesterday, uh, I think it's, uh, it was, uh,

01:49:39

Greg, Greg Davidson mentioned about Exodus, uh, the, uh, the other reference later on in Exodus and said that God rested and was refreshed.

01:49:49

Well, it tells us that in Genesis one, that God rested on the seventh day and he enjoyed what he saw.

01:49:58

He was refreshed by what he saw. He looked at all that he'd made and behold, it was very good.

01:50:04

And then he rested from his work and which means there's no more supernatural creation.

01:50:09

You know, he has put in place everything that's needed for us. And he certainly still works miracles, amazing miracles, but generally he works according to his, he works according to natural processes is the way he relates in the world is, uh, according to his, uh, no man and no respecter of persons.

01:50:31

He treats everyone the same and that's where our natural laws come from. We're all treated the same way. Well, thank you,

01:50:38

Pastor Sterling Vanderwerker of Shepard's Fellowship in Greenboro, North Carolina.

01:50:45

You have won the last copy of the Creation Answers book, compliments of our friends at Creation Ministries International and compliments of Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com,

01:50:59

cvbbs .com. And, uh, I'm going to ask one more question and then

01:51:04

I have to ask a question of my own because it's an important one, but a brand new questioner or, and perhaps listener,

01:51:12

Brian from Toronto, Ontario, Canada says, can you explain catastrophic plate tectonic theory?

01:51:21

Shall I do that or should you? I'm only kidding. Okay. That's a good one.

01:51:27

I've been to Toronto. It's a nice place, beautiful city. And so, uh, it's, I've not been there in winter, but in summer.

01:51:34

So basically the idea of plate tectonics is that the earth is consists of a number of plates and you can see those on various maps, uh, that are delineated around the world and on the, on the web.

01:51:48

And, but the idea is that these plates move, they rub past each other. Some go to get pushed under the others.

01:51:55

Some just collide. So these plates are moving and the, and, um, the plate tectonics, uh, the, the idea of, uh, in mainstream geology is these things have moved slowly over millions of years.

01:52:08

Uh, these plates and continents have drifted. Well, catastrophic plate tectonics was developed by a guy called

01:52:16

John Baumgardner, who did some amazing, uh, computer technology. And, uh, he modeled the structure of the earth and he discovered that the, the plates are actually unstable and under certain conditions, they can move very quickly meters per second.

01:52:35

It's to do with the strength of the mantle, the, uh, the rocks deep inside the earth and, uh, under certain conditions, these can lose their strength.

01:52:45

And so the oceanic crust and other crustal materials can, can plunge into the mantle quite rapidly.

01:52:52

And, uh, his model for how the crust moved, these plates move has been dubbed catastrophic plate tectonics.

01:53:00

So it's very similar to, uh, it's similar in many ways to the conventional plate tectonics, but it happened during Noah's flood.

01:53:09

Uh, it provides an explanation for how the plates moved.

01:53:15

And, uh, whereas the conventional plate tectonics, part of the re the problem with people accepting that was they couldn't think how in the world do these plates move, but this catastrophic plate tectonics provides a, a dry, a mechanism for how these plates moved in creation of circles.

01:53:35

There's a little bit of debate goes on about this. And as there is a little bit in secular circles as well, but that's the general idea.

01:53:43

And the answers book, I think you still got an answers book. I'm not sure we could get some more to you. The answers book has got a whole chapter on this and creation .com.

01:53:52

You can actually, um, get chapters of the answers book. You can access them as PDF files if people would like to see them.

01:54:00

Yeah. Well, I would love it if you shipped us out some more answers books and creation answers book. Uh, well, thank you, uh,

01:54:07

Brian in Toronto, Ontario, Canada, please keep listening to Iron Sharp and Zion radio and spreading the word in Toronto in and beyond.

01:54:16

And my question is that a very crucial point yesterday, uh, which is really a pivotal issue in regard to the divide between young and old earth creationists is death coming before the fall.

01:54:32

And the guest that we had on yesterday, Dr. Greg Davidson said that the scriptures only tell us that the death of man came about, uh, after the fall and that it says nothing about the death of animals before the fall.

01:54:49

So if you could comment on that, yes, well, that's part of the whole redemption that Jesus Christ paid for is that he redeemed the world.

01:54:58

And we read there that this, the world was placed under a curse and that there were thorns and thistles that came about as a consequence of the fall.

01:55:07

And we read about the new heaven and the new earth, there will be no more death and there will be nothing that causes hurt or harm.

01:55:15

The wolf will lie down with the lamb, a child will play with some snakes and they'll not be anything that's harmful.

01:55:23

And we read there how the whole of creation is groaning and travailing. And so it's a consequence of mankind's sin that the world is under a curse.

01:55:33

And, uh, it's so animal death is part of that. And I don't think any, anybody thinks the death of animals, you know, if you've got a pet and they die, you don't think, oh, that's a good thing.

01:55:45

It's not a nice thing. It's like a relative who dies. It's not a pleasant thing.

01:55:51

And so death came in as a consequence of sin. The wages of sin is death. The Bible says, but the resurrection of the dead, it was a physical resurrection that Jesus physically rose.

01:56:03

It was a physical death. He physically died. And so it points to the fact that there was no death before Adam and Eve sinned.

01:56:13

And so all the fossils, which point to death, where do they belong? They explained by Noah's flood before that there was no death.

01:56:21

And so, and that's a way as, as flood geologists, we can identify what sediments would belong to flood rocks and what sediments would, uh, would belong to creation rocks.

01:56:33

If we were to see any of them on the earth, which I don't think we do. I think they're very deep, very, very deep.

01:56:39

So yes, that is the big issue death before sin. And it undermines as soon as you take long ages, you basically, uh, you're starting to unravel the whole of the gospel and make no sense of it.

01:56:52

Death becomes where the death come from. Well, that's what God did. He's the one that caused it.

01:56:58

That's the way he, that's the way he created the world using death and suffering. And so it actually impinges on the nature of God, the character of God, his goodness and that.

01:57:07

So that is the big issue. And that's why it's such an important thing. Amen. And by the way, a

01:57:14

Brian in Toronto, Canada, uh, please say hello. If you know him, the Dr. Tony Costa of Toronto Baptist seminary out there, who was a dear friend of mine, uh,

01:57:23

Brian in, I'm sorry, not Brian Scott in Brian, Ohio says,

01:57:28

I have what might be a foolish question. Is it possible? The earth is young, but the universe is old.

01:57:36

Um, well, it does say in Exodus 20, you know, this is a question that you made the, the, the, the heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything that talks about the heavens and the earth, everything is young.

01:57:48

Uh, and it does say that God created the stars on day four, he created the earth on day one, the stars on day four.

01:57:55

So if you just take it the way it reads, you know, you clearly the stars, he made the, the sun, the moon, he created the stars also.

01:58:02

And that was on day four. So, uh, it is some of these time dilation models do indicate that as far as earth days are concerned, they seem to be old time goes differently in these places, but the, the, um, the light for them appeared in the very first days of creation.

01:58:25

So, uh, the whole, the heavens and the earth were created in six days. The earth was created, uh, in, in those six days.

01:58:34

And, uh, uh, the issue to do with the starlight and that is a really interesting one for developing interesting models.

01:58:41

And we are out of time, Dr. Walker. And if anybody would like to get in touch with Dr. Walker, they can go to creation .com

01:58:48

creation .com. Any other contact information you care to give? Yes, that's right.

01:58:53

And they people, if you'd like somebody to visit your church, do a presentation, there's no set fee to come.

01:59:01

And, uh, you can find that by going to creation .com and looking up, uh, events or, or, or looking for church church events.

01:59:08

Well, that sounds great. I might even take you up on that for something at the local theater or something, but anyway, but, uh, it was great to having you on.

01:59:15

I look forward to you returning to the program often. I want to thank everybody who wrote questions for Dr.

01:59:20

Walker and everybody in general who listened. I want to thank my cohost, the Reverend Buzz Taylor and Charlie Liebert for being in studio with me.

01:59:29

And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater savior than you are a sinner.