Is It Irreverent to Drink Coffee During the Church Service?

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01:26

Alright Tim, the question for today's episode is, is it irreverent to drink coffee during the service?

01:33

Frankly, I saw this tweet by John Piper, and I didn't necessarily understand the line of thinking that he was taking on it, but then

01:42

I thought it was really interesting, like the responses that were given from so many people on this topic in general.

01:49

Yeah. So, meaning, when I hear a question like that, can we reassess whether Sunday coffee sipping in the sanctuary fits this

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Bible verse, Hebrews 12, 28, let us offer to God acceptable worship with reverence and awe.

02:05

My initial impulse in even thinking about that is to say that I think most of our services have gone a long way from reverence and awe in general, and John Piper, maybe we should think about what he's saying and try to understand if maybe perhaps we're over the line in this area too.

02:26

Meaning, it's just not the kind of question I instantaneously dismiss. I think we're probably as irreverent and less filled with awe in our services as you could possibly imagine at this point.

02:37

And then if someone wants to come along and pick at some areas that we need to still go,

02:44

I'm open to the conversation for sure. Yeah, I saw it as well.

02:50

And, you know, I just kind of didn't really think that much of it. But then I saw a lot of other people, you know, quote tweeting it or reposting it or whatever it's called now.

03:03

And I was reading a lot of the comments that people were posting about this.

03:09

And I was just kind of shocked. Maybe I shouldn't have been, but I was just kind of shocked at the aggressiveness of a lot of the responses and seemingly like the defensiveness of a lot of it in a way that, you know, at first I read

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John Piper's thing and I was like, you know, okay, whatever. Yeah, like maybe there's something there, but I just didn't really give it a ton of thought there in the moment.

03:36

Maybe I should have. But then seeing it a few more times and reading the comments, you know,

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I started thinking to myself, man, why are people so aggressive about this one specific thing?

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You know, me personally, I'm not a coffee drinker. I don't like coffee. And, you know, so I don't really have a dog in the fight in terms of, well, you know, at least in terms of, you know,

04:05

I'm not biased towards coffee, basically, you know, I'm not bought into the whole culture of coffee or whatever you want to call it.

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And so I just don't think anything about coffee normally. And to just see so many people responding the way they have, you know, to be fair,

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I saw plenty of people who are like, hey, you know, thanks, John Piper. This is good to think about. I haven't really thought about this before.

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And that was encouraging to see some people take the question and say, hey, maybe there is some legitimacy to this.

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Maybe we should actually think this way and at least ask the question, at least be okay with asking the question.

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But then I saw a lot of other people who were just like, you know, is this really the hill you want to die on, basically?

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You know, or even like this one, this one really bothers me. This is the one that made me be like, man,

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I really feel like we should talk about this personally. But, you know, this is what put me over the edge on it. But someone said in response to John Piper, do you want people to come to service or not?

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Don't make them choose between church and coffee. You aren't going to win. And it's just like, man, we're talking about, you know,

05:27

I mean, you would think we're talking about like, I can't even, you would think we're talking about like, hey, don't bring your

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Bibles into the church with these kinds of responses. But we're talking about coffee right now.

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And I just, I guess I just don't understand. I need you, Tim, to help me understand because I just don't right now why someone would be so rabidly opposed to, rabidly opposed to coffee not being allowed in the service that they would say, you know what,

06:00

I am no longer going to attend this church. Yeah, well,

06:07

I mean, obviously people are made to worship. So we're creatures who instead of worshiping and serving

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God, you know, the basic condemnation that individuals have is that we worship and serve the creature rather than the creator who is blessed forever.

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Amen. So our heart, you know, our hearts, as I think John Piper, or John, Calvin said, are idol factories.

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We make idols out of pretty much everything. And we obviously, when you think about an issue like caffeine and coffee in general, we have an unhealthy dependency on these drugs to a great degree.

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You know, so I think part of this is like, you're just getting a reaction out of people that you're touching an idol.

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So whenever you, you know, if you want a good indication you touch someone, like an idol that someone has, idol they've taken into their heart, just look at how they respond when you try to take it away from them or something along those lines.

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And this is just a classic situation where you have people who have an unhealthy attachment to coffee, caffeine, and the moment you try to call that into question, their, you know, defense mechanisms are kicking in.

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So you see people do the same kind of thing with their phone. So if you have an individual who just, like, you're not allowed to touch their phone, like that phone has become way too important to them and there's something probably that they're doing that they shouldn't be doing related to the phone kind of thing.

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And so that's something that's just obvious, like in terms of just the psychology of what's going on that coffee is just way too serious.

07:44

But then, you know, obviously, like, you're looking through a lot of the responses that you see. You do see a lot of responses about individuals who have that second kind of response too, which is just the, like, hey, if you want unbelievers to come to church, then you're going to have to make it good for them, right?

08:02

Right. And I do think, I think if I'm trying to speculate as to what Piper means by the comment in general,

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I think it probably, a lot of it does relate to this consumer kind of culture that we're bringing into the church where we're making the church be about this experience that's tailored for individuals that's all about them and making them comfortable and putting them at ease and putting the focus on them and their creature comforts in that way.

08:31

And so then, I mean, that's just in line with everything that big churches are doing in order to attract people is to make the music to be the kind of music that they like, to make the environment be an environment that's tailored towards their individual expression in that way, to make it comfortable for them, to make them feel welcome, like as if they're the center of attention and to provide them with amenities and services and everything else.

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And so, I mean, you can imagine like in big church culture where you have the coffee shops that are present within the whole church structure in that way where everyone's standing in line to get their coffee in order to go and to watch this event that's all about their own personal taste and everything that they're going to find enjoyable.

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And I think when you pile up things like that, I mean, there's obviously, I think he's talking about a lot more than just individuals bringing their own coffee into the service in order to drink it, in order to keep them awake while they're watching the service or something along those lines.

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But yeah, I think there's a lot of things going on for sure. But I think the one that you mentioned about is this really the hill to die on, that's probably one of the most comical ones that I hear people say on a regular basis.

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It's funny because it seems like those are always the responses where the most people are coming after you.

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Right, right. You know, so it's like, I don't know. I mean, judging by the response alone, maybe

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I am. If this is a response I'm going to get. Yeah, I mean, I think that's the bizarre thing about it.

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It's like, hey, you know what? The Bible says this X, right? And it's like, do you really want to die on that hill? It's like, die on that hill?

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What are we talking about? I just made a… I mean,

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I just read the tweet, and as a non -coffee drinker,

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I didn't feel attacked. I didn't feel anything, actually.

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I didn't even think anything about it much one way or the other. And then I see all of these responses, and I think it's just really concerning.

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You know, essentially, like someone… I mean, think about the view you must have of God if you are the kind of person who says, you know, how else are we going to get people to come to church unless we let them drink their coffee in the service?

11:06

I don't know. I mean, maybe like the Holy Spirit? You know, it's the same kind of issue as with people who believe that the sign gifts are still around.

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It's like their view of cessationists is that we believe that God never works miracles now, and He's not really doing much of anything, honestly.

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And I remember seeing someone the other day saying, you know, if cessationists believe that God still performs miracles even today, then give us just one example of what you think

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God's doing that's a miracle. And it's like, have you ever heard of salvation? I mean, like someone who's putting their faith and trust in Christ?

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God is bringing something dead back to life. That's an obvious miracle. This just exposes how little and how low your view of God actually is.

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And I think with this coffee thing, you know, if you're thinking, hey, the only way our church is going to survive is if we let people bring their coffee into the service, or even just thinking, hey, the only way people are going to want to hear the message, you know, that we have to give them is if we let them bring their coffee into the service and, you know, sip on it or whatever, that's the only way, then

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I think you're just exposing how low your view of God actually is.

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And I think that's probably, at the end of the day, that's probably what's, you know, hitting a nerve for me.

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That and the fact that it just kind of comes across like a threat, you know, like, hey, you need those unbelievers to come to your church.

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And it's like, that sounds very strange to me. So I guess, I don't know, I just have a lot of issues with that in general.

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But then, you know, the question, but then I guess there's like a question about, well, where is the line? I mean, okay, okay, fine.

13:19

They can bring their coffee to the service. We've searched the scriptures and we've determined, you know, that it is not irreverent to bring coffee into the service and drink it during the service.

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You know, whether that be during the middle of, hey, I can't sing right now because I've got to sip on my coffee, you know, or I'm going to drink it right before we take communion together.

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Or I'm going to drink it in the middle of the message so that I can try and stay awake because the pastor, you know, he's talking about the

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Bible, man, and it just gets, he just goes on and on and it gets boring and I just got to drink something to help me stay awake.

14:00

Let's just assume all of that is not irreverent. Where is the line then, Tim? I mean, like, can

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I, you know, can I bring my popcorn into the service and eat my popcorn during the service?

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Or can I bring my ice cream into the service and eat my ice cream?

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Can I bring my three -course breakfast into the service and eat my three -course breakfast?

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I mean, you know, obviously no one's doing that. But then where, I mean, legitimately, is there a line with this stuff?

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And if there is, you know, where is that line? Is it before or after coffee? Before or after coffee.

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I mean, I think the issue more related to these topics in general is, I mean, there's a couple issues.

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There's like the what is, like, where is the line between how much, like, am I allowed to turn this service that's supposed to be about God into other things or whatever?

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Like, so there's a question along those lines to where, yeah,

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I mean, if you have some kind of diabetic and he brings a snack in order to, so that he doesn't pass out, I mean, that's obviously not him turning this into a movie theater with popcorn experience or something along those lines.

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That's just him trying to keep from passing out because he has a medical condition or something along those lines.

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So part of it is, like, related to the motive thing. And I think part of it, though, is related to the, like, we've normalized a lot of weirdness as it comes to these services in general.

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So we've normalized a lot of weird practices because we've turned the service into something that it's fundamentally not designed to do.

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And now when you push back on it, and then people are looking at you and saying, hey, do you really want to die on this hill? And I think, you know, related to that kind of thing, it's like, well, my impulse in general is to say if you're going to – you're the one turning it into the hill to die on kind of moment, not me.

16:04

Yeah, yeah. But if that's what we're going to do and you're going to say we can't be a church unless we have coffee or no one's going to want to go to your church unless your church has coffee, my general impulse is the same impulse that Paul has in those kind of moments where when the

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Jews are demanding you must circumcise Titus or else, Paul says, well, you can emasculate yourself.

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You know, I'm not going to have Titus circumcised kind of thing because I'm not going to deny the exclusive sufficiency of the gospel.

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I'm not going to deny what we're actually doing here. So, I mean, these aren't eating services. They aren't obviously drinking services.

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They're not these kind of things. And so, like, if you're going to turn it into a let me have my coffee or else moment, then you're the one in the wrong, not me, right?

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So you need to – like, our church isn't like a coffee shop, you know, too.

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So, you know, part of it's that, and, you know, I think there's, depending on a person's, like,

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Lord's Day kind of convictions, you know, these issues would be very different in other ways too.

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So, you know, John Piper is not in a church service in the context of, like, this is the

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Lord's Day and we don't do any work on the Lord's Day and then you're doing work on the Lord's Day and providing coffee.

17:20

I mean, that may be an element of this discussion as well. But yeah, I mean, I think in general, you look at this verse, the verse that we're talking about in Hebrews or whatever, let us draw near to God in worship with reverence and awe.

17:38

I mean, I do think that we've turned this into a circus and we've turned this into a lot of other things. And fundamentally, the church service really isn't meant to be about entertaining nonbelievers, providing them amenities, providing them, you know, services in order to persuade them that, you know, possibly they need to come.

17:56

I mean, this is really fundamentally, this is a worship service. It's about worshiping God. It's about feeding the saints.

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And they are generally outsiders in this context. They're not the guest of honor or something like that, that everything needs to cater towards.

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And so I think a lot of this discussion is just a man -centered discussion about, you know, a church that is so man -centered at this point that now we're at a point where you can't even take their coffee away without them revolting.

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It's like, well, let them revolt, man. I don't care. I would rather them revolt, you know?

18:27

Like, if you're going to turn it into that kind of thing, then yeah, I'll die on the hill, I guess, if that's what you call it, you know?

18:34

Yeah, I guess, you know, it is funny, like, sometimes you'll come out and say these kinds of things and, you know, you're not necessarily thinking like, man, this is the hill

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I'm going to die on. But then people start getting angry and it sounds, you know,

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I didn't necessarily want to die on this hill, but it sounds like you're willing to kill me on this hill. So, go ahead, you know?

18:57

So, I mean, I guess so. If that's what this is going to end up being, then I guess, you know?

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It is one of those things where, yeah, when you observe that kind of dynamic, what's interesting about that kind of dynamic in general is that,

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I mean, fundamentally, the Christian should be willing to die on any hill. Like, if that's what it takes.

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Especially as it pertains to, you know, worshiping and reverence and awe of God.

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That seems like probably the most important thing. So, what's happening is there's like a

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Balaam dynamic here where, you know, Balak summons Balaam and is trying to get Balaam to curse the

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Israelites. And, you know, he takes him to a certain location and Balaam warns him.

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He says, hey, all I can say is what God has said, right? So, this isn't like magic or something. I can't,

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I've got to stay where God says. So, he takes him to this location and instead of cursing the Israelites, he blesses them or whatever.

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And Balak, you know, he gets mad about it and then he takes him to another location and he's like, all right, well, perhaps you can curse them from over here.

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And then he blesses them again. And, you know, then he gets mad and he's like, I'm paying you to curse them, not to bless them, right?

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He's like, didn't I tell you that all I can say is what God says? And so, you know, part of this discussion is a bit like that to where you have pastors who are attempting to say, thus saith the

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Lord in this issue. And so, you know, often if I'm taking a stand on a biblical issue, the goal isn't to like say, hey, you better agree with me or else you're anathema, you're going to hell or something like that.

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That would be making this a hill to die on. You know, technically that would be to say, if you don't believe what

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I believe in this issue, you cannot be a Christian. You're damned to hell forever and ever and ever. But that's not generally what's happening.

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You're just saying the Bible says this is a sin. And then everyone loses their mind and say, do you really want to die on this hill?

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It's like, well, I don't know what you expect me to do, you know? Do you want me to say that? Oh, I guess

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I was wrong. The Bible doesn't say this now. Like I wasn't like I wasn't have this. It wasn't like a Custard's Last Stand moment or something.

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This was just a moment of saying, thus says the Lord. And you don't seem to like it now. And you seem to want to kill me now.

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And then you like, what is the alternative? You want me to just back down so that you won't kill me? If you're going to kill me, kill me.

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Do what you're going to do, you know, like whatever, you know, like that's not how this works.

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And so, you know, it's a funny kind of response to people. It's like, I don't understand what you expect to happen in this moment.

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You know, Piper, you know, in this situation, Piper is asking the question is, you know, church coffee culture.

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Is that reflective of worship and all? And I think, oh, that's a valid question. We need to think about that. But then you do have a certain kind of person that says, hey, don't touch my coffee.

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You know, you ready to die on this hill? It's like, well, I guess, are you ready to kill me? I guess if you're going to kill me over it, then

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I don't know. Do you want me to withdraw the question? Like, what is the answer? What is the alternative? I just thought it was a fair question to ask, you know.

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So, you know, a lot of the responses were mentioning like the early church culture and the fact that, you know, oftentimes they would meet in homes originally.

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And, you know, the communion that they were sharing was a full -on meal, you know, not necessarily bread and wine.

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It was a full -on meal. And so they would bring that up as a justification for being able to have coffee in the service.

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So what is your response to that kind of, you know, to that stance on the early church culture?

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Or even just, you know, there's also like, hey, Jesus, you know, he fed the 5 ,000, right?

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And he did that a few different times. And this is in the middle of him or this is, you know, while he's teaching people.

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So they're obviously probably eating while he's teaching, at least at some point.

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So, you know, if Jesus is allowing it, then should we allow it as well?

23:11

Well, I think you have just equivocation that's happening along these lines. So when the early church met in houses, like these are not houses like you think of houses.

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This isn't like house church houses. Okay. So the typical

23:27

Roman house had a large centralized court called an atrium, or it had a large centralized court called an atrium, which is basically just a big open space within the home.

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So, I mean, you understand what these houses look like. Like they're just houses, you know, picture a big square kind of thing with the big square in the middle and that's your large centralized kind of court there, right?

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And so in these kinds of houses, like this isn't like everyone meeting in someone's living room in a small cramped, you know, 700 foot apartment or something like that in order to have an intimate, you know, close, you know, worship experience or something, you know, that's family feel or anything like that.

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I mean, these are just like, this is a time where Christianity is in its infancy.

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They just got kicked out of the temple. What are they going to do? Where they're going to find a rich person with a big house and they're going to meet in this centralized courtyard in their house because they're not really allowed to buy property and this is what they're going to do.

24:30

This is the only place they have to meet. If they meet out in public, they may get crucified or something along those lines, right?

24:36

Jared So this isn't like a, hey, everyone come over and we'll have refreshments and Bible teaching kind of moment.

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It's not like that, you know? Pete Pizza and Jesus. Jared Pizza and Jesus. So that's not what's going on.

24:50

This is not that kind of thing. Like inviting people over for hospitality and, you know, hospitality and worship

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God combo or something. Like that's not really the kind of thing that we're talking about in that kind of way.

25:05

So what you're talking about is like get the rich person to host everyone in the centralized area of the home because that's the only available place you have to meet for gathering.

25:15

Now, I mean, at the same time, I mean, Jesus, you know, he did feed the 5 ,000. But then like that wasn't like a sermon meal combo or something like that.

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He'd been teaching them for days at that point. And he was concerned that they're going to be walking home empty and hungry and everything else.

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So like at that point, it's like, well, I better he performs a miracle to feed them. So like the idea, though, is just to say that, yes,

25:41

Christians should be given to hospitality. Christians should extend hospitality. You know, in the early church, they certainly had the

25:50

Lord's service as part of meals and everything else. So, I mean, there's nothing. I mean, a lot of churches

25:56

I've been at, you have your service and then afterwards you have a family meal together. I don't think that there's anything wrong with that.

26:05

I don't even think that's the kind of thing that Piper is even addressing in this talk in general.

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It's just, I think what he's addressing is this consumeristic culture, essentially, where you have these demands for all these creature comforts in the midst of the worship performance kind of thing, right?

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So you can have a church service that is devoted to people gathering together to worship

26:37

God. That's what you're doing in the primary first instance. And the more demands that the unbelievers are making upon the believers at that point to make the environment comfortable to them, suited to their taste, provide them with food and drink and beverages so that they're going to be okay.

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At a certain point, you just lose the sense of what this is supposed to be about, particularly once these things become demands in that way.

26:58

So, you know, like pretty soon, I mean, are you going to want requitable chairs like they have in the movie theaters with, you know, like your own personalized menus, you know?

27:09

Is that what you're demanding? Petey Do you want a waiter to come by during the service to take your order?

27:15

Jared I mean, obviously, the more that you have those kind of things happening, the more that you have people who are performing work on the

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Lord's Day in order to do all these things that you're talking about. And then the more that you have these kind of things, the more you have people who are taken away from worshiping

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God and focus on providing you services in the midst of your like sermon entertainment and your singing entertainment kind of thing, right?

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So, I mean, this isn't like a concert. This isn't like a rock concert. This isn't like a play that you're going to see where you have your refreshments.

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This is about worshiping God and reverence and all. This is meant to be all about Him, and you're making it into an entertainment event for you.

27:56

And I think to the extent to which we're doing that, that's definitely a negative for sure. Okay, fair enough.

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This has been another episode of Bible Bashed. We hope you have been encouraged and blessed through our discussion. We thank you for all your support and ask you to continue to like and subscribe to Bible Bashed and share our podcast with your friends and on social media.

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Now, go boldly and obey the truth in the midst of a biblically illiterate world who will be perpetually offended by your every move.