Jesus and Politics Conference Preview

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00:13

All right, everyone, welcome once again to another edition of the conversations that matter podcast.

00:18

I'm your host, John Harris, as always, on a cool and I'm going to say fall.

00:23

It's definitely fall morning here in upstate New York.

00:28

And I'm kind of curious where my my guest today, Tim Bushong, you're in Indiana.

00:33

Is it a fall morning there? It is.

00:35

We've we've enjoyed about three weeks of the greatest weather that can possibly be.

00:42

And it just now had a little rain last night.

00:46

And it's one of those classic, darker fall days.

00:50

I might still go out and take a walk and stuff a little windier last man.

00:54

It's just been gorgeous.

00:55

And now everything's just you see in the gold and the red peak through the trees that they call that a blood a blustery day, isn't that what Winnie the Pooh called for a little something Yeah, yeah.

01:06

A little smack girl, honey.

01:09

Well, for those who don't know, you are the pastor of Syracuse Baptist Church here in Syracuse, Indiana.

01:14

Yeah.

01:14

And you're hosting the Jesus and Politics Conference, which I just got done with the truth script men's conference.

01:22

And yeah, man, I'm telling you, like, it's good.

01:26

I had a good time.

01:27

It's fun.

01:28

But you're just like shot at the end if you're the go to guy for everything, which I know you are.

01:33

So, I mean, how how's that coming along? Is it are you organized? Are you ready? Yeah, we've got our church is just awesome because having a conversation with the brother last night, he's a little bigger church, quite a bit bigger.

01:47

But he's like, man, it's just something about that, that smaller group, 100, 120 some people.

01:54

You know, they love each other and they just work together really well.

01:57

And that's I'm blessed to have not only deacons and another elder in the church, but just the folks are great.

02:06

And, you know, sometimes you have a couple of squeaky wheels in a local church.

02:12

That's that's true.

02:13

It's always average church life.

02:16

But, you know, when you got a number of families that just can take the initiative and, you know, you don't have to say, hey, could you possibly they're already in the plans.

02:27

And sometimes I'll text and oh, yeah, we started that great.

02:30

So I don't have to do it.

02:32

There's still a lot, though.

02:33

You're right.

02:34

I mean, it's it's kind of the when you're the guy who's organizing and the point man where everybody wants to, you know, go through you and make sure that they get to know you and everything.

02:45

And then it it is a decompression after a conference.

02:48

Oh, sure.

02:49

Yeah.

02:49

And we were praying for you guys to go well.

02:52

We have.

02:52

Yeah.

02:52

Yeah.

02:53

Everything went pretty well.

02:55

I'd say the only thing and I realized this last night that and this is on me is I think three of the sessions we did, the mic was on mute, the recording mic.

03:07

So which my heart sank.

03:09

But the year before, we didn't record anything.

03:12

And I've always kind of had that philosophy that it's for people who show up.

03:17

And so when people ask and say, do you have a while, you should have showed up, you know? Yeah.

03:21

It but I definitely it's kind of a weird thing in the Internet age.

03:27

I think less people want to go to conferences because they can just hear the recording later if they want to hear the recording.

03:34

But there is something I think uniquely special about being there, not just because there's fellowship, which is should be reason enough to come to a conference.

03:44

That's probably a huge reason.

03:45

But also when you're in the audience, I think the messages hit you different.

03:51

They're meant for you in a more direct way.

03:54

And of course, we do Q and A's and things like that.

03:57

And so you get to interact more with the speaker.

04:00

And anyway, I don't want to talk about my conference.

04:03

I want to talk about your conference.

04:05

Tell everyone.

04:06

Yeah, go ahead.

04:07

This applies to conferences everywhere.

04:09

It really does.

04:10

Yeah.

04:11

So.

04:12

So your conference, give us the dates.

04:13

Give us where it is.

04:14

How do how do people sign up first? Yeah.

04:17

So I'll I'll link you to the Eventbrite URL and you can post it.

04:24

But it's October 21st, 2023.

04:27

It's our fourth annual Jesus in Politics conference.

04:31

And you know, the title is a little off putting to some people, but just consider it the Christian and culture, God and government, state, church and state, Jesus and politics.

04:41

They're all basically encompassing the same ideas and principles and topics that would be discussed.

04:48

So this year we subtitled it Hail to Jesus, and that kind of coincides with the the psalm that we shot the music video for earlier this year in April.

05:00

And it's a rendition of Psalm 110, the most often quoted passage of the Old Testament in the entire New Testament.

05:08

And I just thought we need to come up with a banging version of that.

05:14

And so that kind of is a great jumping off point for all of our speakers.

05:19

You know, given the the cultural climate we're in, our society seems to be just rushing headlong into Romans one territory.

05:29

And that's that's sad to see, because if you if you're a true patriot, if you're a true American, not just a Christian, and let's not try to make this gloss over and well, it needs to apply to every Christian who lives everywhere in the whole entire world.

05:47

No, we all live in different locations.

05:50

We all have certain affinities and connections.

05:53

And so if you're in northern Indiana in 2023, there are certain topics and cultural manifestations of righteousness or evil that you're going to be more in tuned with than, say, the things that are going on in Hungary today or even Uganda.

06:13

Can I say that Uganda? We all have that flag, right? Yeah, yeah.

06:19

But many Christians on Twitter have posted that flag on their profile.

06:24

What's going on? Yeah, I'm not going to read the Christianity Today article, you know, I think.

06:29

Yeah, I did see that a few months ago.

06:31

And that was a hot topic.

06:32

They're anti.

06:34

People are framing it as anti homosexual, but it's really more of a very specific.

06:40

It's if you, I think, contracted certain like venereal diseases and AIDS, you shouldn't be having sexual relationships with virgins, that kind of thing.

06:51

Common sense application of law to a society, you know, it's so common sense.

06:57

But it's of course, you know, you have even Ted Cruz and conservatives thinking this is the worst thing in the world.

07:03

Right, right.

07:04

But but anyway, yeah, I mean, you think you're right there.

07:07

You're in a particular situation in northern Indiana.

07:09

One of the things I've always appreciated about your conferences, and I've been to two of them, is you always have a local rep come in from Indiana, who's who's explains to the people who primarily are from Indiana, what's happening in their state government, and what they can do and what what the issues are.

07:29

And yes, yeah, it always sounds great to me, especially coming from New York, because I'm just like, wow, you know, it's so much better.

07:37

But but, you know, when you hear about the corruption of the Republican Party, it's also kind of discouraging because you're like, it's better than a blue state.

07:44

But it's also like, it's not what it could be.

07:47

It could be so much more.

07:48

And but anyway, I mean, I've always appreciated that.

07:50

Well, the first the first year you came was in twenty one.

07:56

I think that's the year we had Jason Arp show up from Fort Wayne, the councilman.

08:01

Now, we were supposed to have Kurt Knisley as well, who was our in our state representative.

08:07

He had a family emergency last minute.

08:09

We're like, fair enough.

08:10

And I thought, Jason, you know, he's not he's not a public speaker.

08:14

But when it came time for the Q&A, he had the most interesting stories and data to share everyone.

08:21

Yeah, because he's been in the middle of it.

08:23

And and then so then last year we did have Kurt speak.

08:26

Now it was his his last kind of I think within the last week of his holding that position.

08:34

And he's he had done a lot of work, especially with with trying to get bills of abolition passed.

08:40

And what's what's really been disconcerting to a lot of Christians when they find this out, that one of the greatest bastions of opposition to abolishing abortion, even putting it out there, has been institutional right to life groups.

09:00

And my kids didn't know that they were like, why can't we just do it all? I said, oh, hey, I'm I'm all about that smash mouth incrementalism.

09:07

You know, I get it.

09:09

Yeah.

09:09

But but with on the same you're on the same team, you've got a whole faction of people saying, well, you guys, you know, you're hitting too hard.

09:17

Don't hit because, you know, they they won't like it, whatever.

09:21

I know it's deeper than that.

09:22

I'm just.

09:23

Yeah, yeah.

09:23

Characterizing it.

09:24

Well, it reminds me of the meme, you know, us younger guys, I guess.

09:28

Am I still a younger guy? I think so.

09:30

We are.

09:31

We think in memes.

09:32

That's that's part of the problem with with the millennials and the Gen Z is, you know, memes just come to mind.

09:38

And there's just one meme where it's a it's a format that you could put a lot of things in.

09:44

But it's the child who asks his mom, you know, why can't we have that at home? And the mom says, we already have that at home.

09:50

And then it's a picture of some pathetic, you know, rendition.

09:53

You know, it's like I want a super soaker.

09:55

We already have squirt guns at home.

09:56

And it's like some pathetic.

09:58

Right.

09:58

I feel that way about the pro life.

10:00

Like, it's like, hey, why can't we have anti-abortion organizations and legislatures? And it's like the Republican Party is like, we have that already.

10:09

And then you look at what you have and you're like, this is a joke, right? And it's regulated baby dismemberment.

10:16

Oh, great.

10:17

Way to go.

10:18

Yeah.

10:19

My eyes have been open to that more, I would say, recently, I think.

10:23

I mean, I've I've always known that the Republican Party is corrupt, that there's corruption surrounding them and all the organizations.

10:30

But I think that Lizzie Marbock thing really it was in Ohio, not Indiana.

10:36

Neighboring state, though.

10:38

Yeah, yeah.

10:39

That really just boy.

10:42

Yeah.

10:42

And I talked to her a little off camera, too.

10:44

And I'm just like, we're in a bad way, man.

10:48

Yeah, that was that was a that was an eye opening interview.

10:51

I really appreciated that one.

10:54

You know, one of the so one of the things about about our conference in particular is that although it has this kind of scandalizing title to it, what I've tried to do and like, you know, I've told people the first one was kind of last minute is 2020.

11:13

Hey, let's have a conference.

11:14

It's the middle of September.

11:15

Who needs months and months of planning? Let's just throw it out there and see what happens, you know.

11:21

But I try to bring people that are going to either, like you say, have some skin in the game locally, have some experience in the political realm, because we're not Anabaptists.

11:33

We don't believe that turn the other cheek means you can't be a police officer, you know, or a public official or county commissioner or chief of police.

11:43

And so also bringing in that other perspective, it's like a like a multifaceted diamond.

11:50

You got a lot of different lights showing that make up the one thing is a pastoral perspective as well.

11:57

You know, we got people in the pews that are, frankly, just shell shocked, if that's a good way to put it.

12:06

And thinking in memes, go back to that for just a second.

12:12

That's actually not that new.

12:15

If you think about the Reformation and some of the memes that Martin Luther had drawn up with the pope and flatulence, I mean, it says an awful lot.

12:27

You can you can get a good point across.

12:30

And that's why I'm not I'm not a huge fan of, you know, our hour and 15 sermons.

12:35

You've got to be pretty, pretty on point to make those, you know, stick and be able to walk away going, yes, now that's something right.

12:45

And so in the conference, you know, leading up to it, we're going to be, you know, pushing some not not sloganeering, but meme type of truths that can be communicated that are going to make some people angry and some people are going to go, yeah, yeah.

13:03

And, you know, the whole time we've we've had it, there have been people that are like more from my generation, a little older, you know, they're the traditional Reagan conservatives.

13:15

You also have the the the far end of the other spectrum, not from the left.

13:20

We haven't had people.

13:22

I don't know why they don't want to come to our conference.

13:24

I don't get it.

13:25

You know, you could just you could ask questions, interact.

13:29

First time I came, you had a local newspaper guy there.

13:32

Yeah.

13:33

Trying to ask me questions.

13:34

And it's funny because I was super skeptical.

13:37

I was trying I did.

13:38

I wanted to ignore the guy.

13:39

I just my own experiences with the media have always been negative.

13:44

Yeah, there's three major events in my life.

13:47

I was there and I saw what they reported and it wasn't what I saw.

13:50

And I exactly.

13:51

And but this he's but you still have that Norman Rockwell kind of feel to Syracuse, where, you know, the local newspaper man is, you know, if he doesn't get it right, he's going to hear from you.

14:03

You know, it's like it's just interesting to me that small town dynamic is still alive and well in many parts of this country.

14:11

By the way, that man's name is Ray Below, and he passed away a month ago.

14:17

Oh, really? I'm so sorry to hear that.

14:19

I was, too.

14:20

I'd reached out to him and, you know, because it's every year he's been very, very positive.

14:25

I mean, he took flack on Facebook for even reporting that we're going to have this conference.

14:33

You know, all the crazies came out, even even fellow Christians came out of the woodwork and were like, oh, any church that does this should lose their tax exempt status.

14:42

And he stuck with it.

14:44

Well, so when I reached out to the new person, oh, I'm so sorry he passed away.

14:49

I didn't even know.

14:50

It was it was a great guy.

14:51

So are they going to cover it or? Yeah, actually, today paper comes out.

14:58

They said they're going to run a run a feature today and then next week as well.

15:01

So nice.

15:02

We'll see.

15:03

We'll see how it's reported.

15:04

My experience with the media has been exactly like yours.

15:07

Only I'll ask you one question, you give an answer.

15:11

And then in the interview you see on television, that same answer is to a completely different question and changes everything.

15:19

Yeah, yeah.

15:20

It's pretty amazing the things they there is this one I still remember I was asked to do an interview and I didn't do it.

15:26

Someone else took my place, but it was on these Confederate memorials or monuments in Raleigh, North Carolina.

15:32

They were taking them down, you know, state capital.

15:34

They want to take them down.

15:35

And the whole thing was hysterical to me because, you know, they did the zoom in with the scary music.

15:40

I think it was on this memorial that was the mother's memorial literally to moms who, you know, their sons went to war.

15:47

And it was like, you know, the shadows of white supremacy are still with us.

15:51

And anyway, the guy they got to, they had originally asked me, but the guy they ended up filling in with, he said one thing the entire segment was like a 20 minute segment or something out of 15 minutes, maybe.

16:06

But it was the opposition.

16:09

So they, you know, they interviewed their expert who's, of course, you know, has the same view as the interviewer, a liberal who has.

16:15

And then they get, you know, their neutral citizen, who's also a hack, you know, for the left.

16:21

And then they have their one guy who's like, you know, give the conservative response.

16:26

And this is all he said the entire segment.

16:28

They said, well, what would you do if someone says I'm offended by these statues? And he says, well, I'd ask him if they want to have a cup of coffee with me.

16:35

Cut.

16:36

That was it.

16:37

That's all he said.

16:38

The only pushback in the entire thing for the left's agenda was, you know, a conservative wants to have a cup of coffee with you.

16:45

Well, it's kind of fitting, I suppose.

16:48

Well, for the entire Starbucks advertising plan that they had come up with, that's pretty helpful.

16:53

But not for the rest of us.

16:56

Well, we need a white pill here.

16:58

We need, you know, you're always happy, which probably makes some people mad, I would imagine.

17:04

But you do these these conferences in, you know, during Biden's presidency.

17:10

And, you know, a lot of things look kind of bleak.

17:13

What, you know, what gives you hope? What what do you see on the horizon that you're excited about? Why do you keep even doing this? What's the point? Yeah, those are those are good questions.

17:26

I think what first of all, they're hail to Jesus.

17:31

If Jesus is truly king and he has a kingdom and that kingdom has manifestations in the world in which we live.

17:41

And Christians look around and we don't see, you know, like Hebrews says, we do not yet see this, but we see Jesus.

17:49

And I know that's a bit of an exegetical stretch, but I'm a pastor.

17:52

In closing, in three hours later, so it's like since that's true and that means that the antithesis is a lie.

18:03

Satan's not the god of this world in the sense of physical universe.

18:08

He's the he's the god of the worldly world, you know, where backdoor deals and backstabbings and lying and grand armies with banners waving.

18:19

That's the only thing he's got.

18:20

And we have the Lord Jesus Christ who overcame death itself.

18:25

And Jesus is interested in the political systems that we have because Jesus loves his creation.

18:32

God so loved his creation that he did what he gave his son as a propitiation for all his people.

18:40

And it's not in order to instantly translate us into glory.

18:45

It's so that we grow in maturity in Christ.

18:48

And part of that growing in maturity in Christ is growing in maturity of your understanding of the world around you.

18:55

So I want to bring in people that are going to help the local Christians here.

19:00

And this year we've got people coming from a lot farther away than just a couple hours, which I'm just so excited about.

19:08

But we want to equip them so that they can think, first of all, outside of the the box that the pagans want to put you in.

19:18

The assumptions of, say, post-World War II, Enlightenment-based Eisenhower.

19:27

We shouldn't say that because Eisenhower was a pretty decent man, but we tend to associate the Eisenhower presidency with that lull in the spiritual battle action.

19:39

Our enemies have been defeated, except for Russia, and the baby boom is going on.

19:45

Unions can negotiate contracts that are completely unsustainable in reality, which is what has happened.

19:53

And so all that to say, that's not the world we live in.

19:57

We live in 2023.

19:59

In fact, wouldn't it be nice to go back to the early 80s? Well, no, because that's not the time we live in.

20:06

And that had its own problems.

20:08

I was there, I remember.

20:10

I remember Clarence Thomas getting thrown under the bus.

20:13

There's always been this Machiavellian top-down, at-all-costs winning.

20:22

Well, now it's gotten to the point where people are genuinely distressed about not just their pocketbook, but about a war looming in the East.

20:35

This sounds like Tolkien or something.

20:38

A great power, I've seen the eye.

20:40

And we have supposedly Christian conservative Republican leaders saying, well, we might have to send troops over to you know where.

20:55

I'm like, you guys have lost your minds.

20:58

What possible priority would an alliance with a group of nations take over your own country? My stars.

21:10

The Southern border is, it's collapsed.

21:13

A state governor tries to do something and the feds come in and break it up.

21:17

Okay, that sounds familiar.

21:21

Yeah, I mean, it's kind of like the stuff that makes for civil wars, really.

21:25

And I think maybe the national or the general government is too strong now, and the states are too weak to do much of that.

21:34

You know, not that anyone wants a war, but even just trying to nullify or saying we don't care, which, you know, we're going to arrest any federal officer that comes in here and tries to stop us from securing our border, that kind of thing.

21:47

Which inevitably, you know, the general government wants their control, so it would probably lead to conflict.

21:53

There's a real gauntlet being thrown down there on that level.

21:58

And all the while, you know, the people in the boroughs of New York City that are being overrun with those same supposedly refugees, they're not refugees.

22:08

There's no war, right? Right.

22:10

And they can't take it, so there's unrest there.

22:14

And this is all playing into the hands of the future Napoleon, you know, if you want to say it that way.

22:20

It's interesting because I'm an hour and a half, two hours north of New York City, and they desperately, they've always done this.

22:27

There's a battle between upstate and New York City where, you know, upstate every once in a while, the talk of splitting the state up and seceding and letting the city do their own thing comes up.

22:36

And of course, it'll never happen.

22:38

But well, I shouldn't say never, but in the current political paradigm, it won't happen.

22:43

And New York City keeps trying to kind of take their problems and, you know, shift them to other parts of the state.

22:53

So they'll take their homeless problem and shift their homeless people up to some small town in the middle of the Catskill Mountains, right? More like Roscoe, New York.

23:01

Or in this recent thing, what they did was they tried to send some of the illegal migrants up to displace veterans who are living in hotels in Newburgh, New York.

23:12

And the mayor or the, I should say, the county supervisor got so mad and I guess put an end to it.

23:20

And so it's contained now a little more, as I understand it, in New York.

23:25

I'm sure the problem is reaching us.

23:27

I know it is because I see it.

23:29

But it's just interesting.

23:32

Like they're having to live with the consequence of their terrible decisions and policies, whereas in years prior, they never did.

23:39

It was always border states, you know, that got the brunt of it.

23:43

And part of me is happy to see that.

23:46

So maybe they'll think through, but I don't think they will.

23:49

Well, so it sounds like we're painting a dire picture.

23:55

And yeah.

23:55

Yeah.

23:55

I was trying to get away from that.

23:57

Might be.

23:57

Exactly.

23:59

What happened? Okay.

24:00

So there's a principle of subsidiary.

24:06

Am I saying that right? It's that Chesterton local is better than bigger, whatever you can solve on a local level.

24:14

Yeah, yeah.

24:15

I think it's a Roman Catholic sort of- Political philosophy.

24:20

But yeah, that's right.

24:21

Yeah.

24:22

It's a good one.

24:22

Yeah.

24:23

Yeah.

24:23

It's one of those.

24:24

I mean, we can look at the representative republic we have as a result of Northern European Protestantism.

24:32

Well, okay.

24:34

If the Roman Catholics come up with something that's- Well, like, you know, sphere sovereignty is pretty similar to subsidiary.

24:40

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

24:41

I can't say that either.

24:43

Exactly.

24:44

Subsidiary.

24:46

Something.

24:47

Yeah, it was Chesterton and his buddy who were embracing that.

24:53

So anyway, that said, there is a principle in which you want to strengthen what remains and be able to prioritize that which you have direct contact with and even authority over.

25:09

So for example, every man, every father listening to us today can be scratching his head and worried about Ukraine, but the main priority is his household, getting his finances in order, making sure his children are being led well, that his wife is fulfilled spiritually and emotionally and all the things that a man has to do in his household.

25:37

And start there.

25:38

We always talk about this in relation to missions and evangelism.

25:42

And somebody said, well, I think I'm called to be a missionary.

25:45

He says, well, are you reaching out to anyone where you live now? And if you're not, then you might not have a missionary evangelist calling.

25:56

You just don't know.

25:57

And so this is why it's been helpful.

25:59

Guys like Michael Foster with the County Before Country Conference.

26:04

And not just a conference, but actually putting these things into practice.

26:07

There's a town that they've intentionally moved in the proximity of.

26:14

They have business set up.

26:15

They have jobs.

26:17

There's a manufacturing base.

26:19

So what's interesting about this area of the country is that, yeah, we've got our loony lefty contingency.

26:28

Every community does.

26:30

But by and large, this is a prosperous area because of basic fundamental Protestant work ethic going on.

26:39

So when people recognize that, they go, okay, if I'm unemployed in Syracuse, it's because I don't want to work.

26:47

Which is different than maybe being unemployed somewhere else where it's a real desperation to have some kind of employment and income.

27:00

And the other thing is that since the church is God's fundamental ordained organization on earth, the local church, I'm a Baptist, so I don't think there's anything greater than the local church.

27:14

Thank you.

27:16

Then it's really imperative that local churches, pastors train their people to think outside the box.

27:24

Within the box of biblical orthodoxy, our circle, again, presuppositions, unproven assertions, a network.

27:36

Once you get that and you're grounding in the word of God, then you need a spine to be able to stand on those principles and act those things, whether it's at the job or at school.

27:50

I know we have a church full of homeschoolers in Christian school.

27:54

I don't think there's one public school family.

27:57

At the same time, I know there are situations in which, okay, that's the option.

28:03

You have to take it.

28:04

Any of those things has to be considered an outpost of the kingdom of God where, okay, this is my sphere.

28:11

As for me and my house, we're going to serve the Lord.

28:14

I don't know about you guys.

28:15

And just in those small little steps like that, then you can get to organizing abolition movements.

28:24

You can get towards actually running a candidate that is going to govern in such a way as not to bankrupt the whole entire system or bring in some of the weirder aspects of our society today.

28:40

So, since I've always been a big fan of the bigger picture, worldview, Schaefer, foundations and all that, that's generally where I come from.

28:52

Then a Joe Spurgeon is going to come along and give it that challenging pastoral oomph.

28:58

Remember his talk, the time? He's always convicting, and I just have to leave.

29:03

I can't take this one.

29:05

I came here to pass the government.

29:08

What are you doing? Exactly, right.

29:10

And see, that's where some of the people that have brought these irrational critiques against us, they don't have any leg to stand on because they don't know what they're talking about.

29:20

We're not about what you just said.

29:22

Wait, hold on, hold on.

29:23

People online saying things that they don't know about? Hold on.

29:28

It reminds me of the old Steve Martin bit where he says, my grandmother used to sing this song to me.

29:33

It's all gentle.

29:34

And then the next line, criticize things you don't know about.

29:39

That you're dating yourself a little bit.

29:41

I know.

29:41

Okay, boomer.

29:42

Yeah, he's got whiter hair than I.

29:45

Well, then I bring somebody like you who is, at the time, the big issue was social justice in the church.

29:54

By the way, it's still there.

29:56

It's just percolating.

29:59

This year, I don't think I'm going to talk about it.

30:01

That's right, right.

30:02

I'm going to talk about classical liberalism and really, I should say it's a particular strain that's manifested itself in the post-war consensus.

30:14

It's just funny to me online right now how guys who have never, it's obvious to me, they've never been exposed to this kind of language.

30:23

They probably knew what post-war consensus meant about two seconds ago and now the cartoon version, and now they're bandying it about all over the place.

30:35

But of course, this has been, I mean, I read Roger Scruton, right? I love Roger Scruton.

30:40

He talks about this.

30:42

This is something that's been in political philosophy for years, and it's a particular thing.

30:47

And so, I know you're post-Mill, right? Even though you're a Baptist, but you're a post-Mill Baptist.

30:55

Well, it's the only consistent way to be, and it's fun, let me tell you.

30:59

Well, yeah.

31:00

Are you a theonomist? Do you take that label or you're- I'm with Askel and Bockham on this.

31:08

General equity has to be in there.

31:10

Okay.

31:10

Because then you'll confuse people.

31:13

But yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

31:14

Sure, sure.

31:15

Okay.

31:16

Because even when you were saying outposts of the kingdom, I'm sensing that's the kind of language in that world.

31:21

And I don't know where I was going with this.

31:23

I had a question for you, and now I've just totally lost it, which should be happening at my age.

31:29

That's right, that's right.

31:30

Just wait.

31:32

Well, here's the other, you were talking about your topic, the post-war consensus, which in a nutshell is, hey, let's not make such a big deal about this stuff.

31:42

We'll just tolerate each other.

31:44

I had a talk that was very foundational in helping me flesh some of this out.

31:51

Man, back in the late 80s, I think it was, I had it on cassette tape.

31:55

It was pluralism, relativism, and tolerance, and the overlap, but also the distinctions between those three things.

32:04

And in normal life, you could tolerate certain things, certain behaviors.

32:13

As Doug Wilson says, not every sin is a crime.

32:16

Okay.

32:17

You have to grant that because coveting is a sin, but how can you enforce that, right? You only enforce that which you see, and observe, and watch people do.

32:29

So with pluralism, in one sense, it's just a fact of cultural cohesion.

32:40

It's the opposite of cohesion, but it happens to be the reality of the situation.

32:45

In other words, you could say something very strong, very convictionally based, biblical, and what's the average pew sitter who doesn't know better? They're going to say, well, you know, there are people that disagree with you on that.

32:58

I had that after I preached through 1 Timothy 2 and 3.

33:03

Well, you know, there are some Christians that don't agree with that.

33:06

I said, well, yeah, that's why I'm talking about it, because we want to correct those misconceptions, you know? Yeah, yeah.

33:16

I think I remembered where I was going with that question that I asked earlier.

33:19

So I was going to say, this will be interesting.

33:22

So you went through kind of the speakers, and I know there's more speakers.

33:25

We should probably finish that, and then I'll ask you the question.

33:28

So William Wolfe is coming, right? Yes, yes.

33:32

And thanks for recommending him, John.

33:35

Yeah, you're going to be in big trouble for having him.

33:37

Oh, I know.

33:38

Now I realize that, and it's just too late.

33:41

You know, the tickets have been purchased.

33:43

Everything's in place.

33:44

No, no, no.

33:46

So here we have our requisite conference speaker who has some experience in the realm of, yes, politics.

33:59

He actually has- He worked for the Trump administration.

34:01

That's right.

34:02

That's right.

34:03

Now I guarantee you, if I had somebody coming in who had worked in the Obama administration, there'd be more people signing up.

34:12

You think so? In Syracuse, Indiana, it's pretty red there.

34:15

It is.

34:16

It is.

34:17

I'm talking from the church.

34:19

Oh, from the church universal or the church? Yes, yes, yes.

34:25

Yeah, that could be.

34:27

That could be.

34:27

But obviously, the point isn't to just bring in numbers or whatever.

34:32

I want to hear what this young fellow has to say, and I think some of his perspectives, especially when I just started following him on X on Twitter.

34:44

Right, he's X.

34:45

Yeah, the unknown, right? You know, he'll say things like, again, I've said this in the last month a couple of times, but my heartbeat is not with my Boomer Con friends.

35:01

There are a few older guys that I really respect and love and admire.

35:07

Again, you know, Tom Askell, Votie, Doug Wilson, that list goes on.

35:12

But there's a bunch of these guys that are just scrambling to try to throw their fellow Christians under the bus.

35:19

And so when I read the things that a guy like you, you were very helpful to me.

35:26

I'm an older guy.

35:27

I've been around the block a few times.

35:29

But during that social justice kerfuffle in 19 and 20, very helpful.

35:34

AD was helpful.

35:36

And now I'm seeing William Wolfe has a lot to bring to the table.

35:43

He's no dummy, and he understands how the political machinations move on, grinding like a great wheel, crushing everything in his path.

35:54

Or can it be tamed and used for good? Well, obviously, we wouldn't be talking about it if we thought it was only the former.

36:03

So yeah, I'm looking forward to that.

36:05

Fun trivia here.

36:07

If AD would have responded to his text messages in time, he would probably be having this conversation with you.

36:14

Because the first time, I think you said you invited both of us.

36:16

And I'm the only, I responded.

36:18

So I was the only one.

36:20

Whoever replies first, I can only afford one of you.

36:23

Yeah.

36:24

Yeah.

36:25

So this is what I wanted to ask you.

36:28

I was asking you about kind of your eschatology and your political, or I don't even know if I want to, where I fit theonomy, your theological, public theology, put it that way.

36:39

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

36:40

And so you have, you know, there's a certain kind of hopefulness.

36:44

Now, not every Postmill guy has it, but some do.

36:47

And there's Premill guys, actually, and Amill guys who seem to have an optimism that the Postmill guys don't quite understand.

36:53

How can you have that? So it, but generally speaking, correct me if I'm wrong, Postmill guys known to be a little more optimistic, right? Yeah, yeah.

37:02

Yeah.

37:03

And you're an optimistic guy.

37:06

So I thought it'd be fun to do predictions a little bit.

37:10

And we can talk about the church, the state, and where we see America in 10 years, 30 years.

37:17

I want to read for you a quote first, though.

37:19

So this is, I'm gonna get in trouble for this because it's Sam Francis, which people now say, you know, is a white supremacist.

37:25

And so, you know, I don't really, I don't think he is.

37:27

I don't know that.

37:28

But, you know, so is everyone before, you know, 2010.

37:31

So, yeah, exactly.

37:33

I just want, I'm only interested in this one quote.

37:36

So he said this in, I think this is 1994.

37:38

Someone sent this to me this morning.

37:40

And this is just, this is brutal, okay? He says, whatever primitive Christianity or true Christianity or historical Christianity may or may not have believed and taught.

37:51

What is indisputably happening today is the deliberate extirpation from Christianity of the European heritage by its enemies within the church.

38:01

Within churches, sorry, the institutional Christianity that flourishes today is no longer the same religion as practiced by Charlemagne and his successors.

38:10

And it no longer supports the civilization they formed.

38:15

Indeed, organized Christianity today is the enemy of Europe and the race that created it.

38:20

Which, of course, now everyone's scared because, you know, he said race.

38:23

He said the word.

38:24

So anyway, the only reason I read that is because someone sent it to me this morning and just was kind of like, man, you know, evangelicalism in the United States.

38:35

But this could apply to almost any denomination, really.

38:38

Or you could broaden it to Christendom in general.

38:40

The Catholic church fits into this.

38:43

It is not designed by and large, or I shouldn't even say designed.

38:49

It does not function by and large to reinforce things that Christianity used to assume or reinforce, right? We were just talking about the border issue, right? Roman Catholic Church is one of the biggest advocates for, and I don't think that there's any papal, you know, decree that comes out and says we're for illegal migration.

39:09

But the way the whole issue is couched is that Christians ought to, they shouldn't really be in opposition to the poor and the sojourner coming here.

39:21

Russell Moore says the same kind of stuff.

39:24

There is this kind of notion that lineage doesn't really matter at all.

39:29

Living for generations in the same area, building trust within the community doesn't matter.

39:34

You can become an American immediately through, you don't even necessarily have to go through an assimilation process.

39:41

It's just, do you believe in freedom? Do you want opportunity? That somehow is enough to make you American.

39:48

This is just assumed.

39:50

Principal pluralism, I learned that in seminary.

39:52

George Marsden is pushing this.

39:56

That's post-war consensus talk.

39:58

We want a neutral public square.

40:00

We want atheists and Christians and gays to all get along.

40:03

Somehow that's possible because we're all committed to neutrality, which is what being an American again is.

40:09

And it's all universal.

40:11

The whole world needs to just adopt this model of secularism and we'll be okay.

40:16

We won't have another war.

40:18

It's insane.

40:19

The whole thing is insane.

40:20

What it does, and I think Sam Francis is having this in mind, I would assume.

40:24

I don't know the context of the quote, but there's a created order that God set up.

40:31

And then there is, and this is where I want to get your thoughts, there's what Jesus Christ came and implemented.

40:39

This kingdom of God, this new paradigm, if you will, where of course, every tongue, tribe, and nation is part of the church.

40:47

Of course, there is neither Jew, nor Greek, nor slave, nor free, male, nor female.

40:53

Of course, we're all, the ground is level, as Robert E.

40:56

Lee said, at the foot of the cross, of course.

40:59

And I quoted Robert E.

41:00

Lee, so that's even more scary.

41:02

Oh, you're making friends fast here.

41:04

Everyone is going to kill me.

41:05

So the thing is though, there's these two kinds of things.

41:09

And maybe Sam Francis didn't have the theological acumen to pick up on this.

41:13

I don't know.

41:14

But I think what he might be detecting is this kind of flattening of the natural order of things, that God actually made different peoples.

41:24

Yeah, he made Adam and Eve, but from them, the Tower of Babel, and he made different languages.

41:29

God, that's part of the creation, actually.

41:32

In a sense, creation was six days, but on the seventh day, he rested.

41:38

But there's actually, I mean, he's done miracles since then.

41:40

He created languages.

41:42

There's other, God's active.

41:43

And so, you have a created order with hierarchy, a natural aristocracy, as Jefferson said, kind of embedded within it.

41:54

And because it doesn't exist that way in the kingdom of God paradigm, or the spiritual kingdom that Jesus was implementing, the church almost sees it, it seems to me, as an enemy.

42:05

And this jives so much with the post-war thinking and this sort of classical liberal neutrality that we can split our minds in two, and we can have kind of, on the one hand, we can have the truth of Christianity, which is this kind of higher truth.

42:21

And then on the other hand, this kind of this order that exists in the world, which we don't really, we're not in favor of, but what's happening is we're progressively emancipating ourselves from it.

42:32

And we're realizing the kingdom of God over time.

42:35

And things are becoming more equal.

42:37

And there's more freedom.

42:38

And everything's just kind of getting better.

42:40

And I look around and I say, no, it's not.

42:42

Things are collapsing.

42:43

So here's my prediction.

42:44

I know that was a sermon.

42:45

Thank you for listening, Tim Bushong.

42:47

I appreciate that.

42:49

Now I don't even need to give a talk.

42:51

So my prediction is this.

42:55

We'll loop that.

42:56

That's right.

42:57

Things will break down in the next, I think they're breaking down right in front of our eyes.

43:02

But I think in the next five to 10 years, we're going to have serious violence.

43:07

I think the left keeps predicting white nationalists are going to.

43:10

I think there's some truth to that.

43:12

I think you push someone too far.

43:13

You displace them.

43:14

You go into areas and you shut them out because the prices are too high for them and stuff.

43:20

You are going to get violence.

43:22

You're going to have a lot of violence between these illegal migrants.

43:25

See, just noticing that as a trend and as a portent of things to come is not the same as fomenting it.

43:35

They're not.

43:35

Oh, yeah, I have to say that.

43:36

You have to say that.

43:39

The problem is that this has always been, if you're going to speak in the right sense of the word, in the Old Testament sense, prophetically to a culture, even if you're, again, not a prophet, not the son of a prophet, neither are you, wonderful.

43:56

But Schaefer would see these trends in society and say, he's the one that predicted they were going to put stuff in the water.

44:05

Now it's, oh, you can't be conspiratorial.

44:07

Well, until it's true.

44:09

And then you go, well, okay, I guess- They were turning the frogs gay.

44:12

They were.

44:13

It's just because the guy said, very wrong.

44:16

Yeah, yeah, we didn't take him seriously.

44:18

When Alex Jones was on Glenn Beck, I was like, whoa, this is rich.

44:22

Now we're saying, no, he was right about some things.

44:25

Well, and here's the thing.

44:27

So the mainstream, they're good at being right until they're wrong.

44:36

And I wish guys like Glenn Beck would have been a little more prescient back in the late 2000, 2007, 2008.

44:43

I mean, they just threw Ron Paul under the bus.

44:45

And whatever you think about that guy, most of the stuff he's been saying economically has come to pass, right? Money's just water.

44:53

It just flows and they print more of it.

44:55

And it's ridiculous.

44:57

So the prediction of some kind of inter-scene conflict that is less than civil, right? I don't know.

45:08

We already have conflict.

45:09

So I'm not, I just think it'll escalate.

45:11

And I think you'll have migrant communities clashing with other minority communities in urban areas.

45:16

That's happening in Chicago right now.

45:18

Already, yes.

45:18

And you're not far from there.

45:21

So I'm sure you go there all the time because you love Chicago.

45:25

Oh, absolutely.

45:26

It's a joy.

45:27

Yeah.

45:27

We just had a conversation, whether you want to fly out of Fort Wayne, which is an hour away, or fly out of Chicago.

45:34

And it's like, I will pay $200 extra to fly out of Fort Wayne.

45:38

Yeah, no kidding.

45:39

I don't want to drive to O'Hare.

45:42

So I'll finish my prediction and then you can have the floor talk as long as you want.

45:45

So my prediction is this.

45:46

In the next five to 10 years, we'll have major conflict.

45:49

Things will not work.

45:51

Things that used to work.

45:52

I'm talking about, we could have problems with the power going out more.

45:58

That's what's happening in places like South Africa right now.

46:01

We could have problems with supply lines.

46:03

We had that in 2020.

46:05

Or the things that are being produced.

46:08

The things that we actually need, we don't get.

46:11

But we get a bunch of stuff we don't need.

46:13

And there's too much interference with the government into the market and regulating so that we don't have enough people actually paying for the rest of us.

46:26

The jobs are decreasing.

46:27

I read that when food stamps started in 1975, when that's when the program really got underway, it was like 5% or 6% of the population.

46:35

Now, I think it's like something like 16%.

46:39

Don't point to that.

46:40

See, it's working.

46:41

Yeah, they will.

46:42

And the thing is that all of this stuff spells disaster.

46:46

Large groups of migrants come here.

46:47

It spells everything as disaster.

46:49

So what does that mean for us? This is my prediction.

46:52

I think that this is an opportunity, right? Every time something bad happens, there's always an opportunity.

46:58

I think there was some leftists who said that, right? But he's right.

47:02

For Christian men, I think this is an opportunity to take back a position in society.

47:09

They used to call it the gentlemen.

47:11

Gentlemen, they had a special privilege with being a gentleman.

47:14

You were respected.

47:16

You were a leader in your community.

47:18

And it existed on a local level.

47:21

We're going to go back to it in some form, I think.

47:23

Because people don't trust any of these big institutions.

47:26

They're distant.

47:27

You're a number to them.

47:29

They're looking for people in their own community.

47:31

And the Christian industry is so slow to recognize this.

47:37

They just don't see, I think, that that is the need of the hour.

47:41

So they're still trying to cater to leftists and, I guess, moderate Republicans.

47:48

But you got to go what will be considered hard right, to be honest with you.

47:53

You got to go strong localists, strong community center.

47:56

We're going to protect this community.

47:59

Be a man, not just in your home, but also publicly in your community.

48:04

And I think people will notice.

48:06

And that will be the thing, the glue that binds communities together when all hell is happening around them, so to speak.

48:13

So that's my prediction.

48:15

Is that there will be, in certain areas, Christian men who stand up.

48:18

Or just men in general, but Christian men in particular.

48:22

And this will be the formation of a new social strata.

48:27

Now, a lot of things could get in the way of this.

48:30

But that's actually my hope, in a way.

48:33

I'm talking politically.

48:34

Obviously, my hope is in Jesus Christ for salvation.

48:37

But politically for our country, for our communities, I think there's an opportunity here to think local.

48:45

I said something similar last year, but it's become more apparent to me.

48:51

So what's your prediction, postmill theonomy guy? Is Jesus going to come back next year? Is that what you're thinking, or what? Yes, as a postmillennialist, I'm willing to modify my eschatology in the middle of the air.

49:06

That's right.

49:08

Somebody else said that.

49:09

I can't remember.

49:11

So a couple of things.

49:12

Back up to the flattening of all things.

49:18

In fact, I was just having this conversation with another local man.

49:24

I said, as soon as you use words like heritage, land, family, I mean, all those words are trigger words for antebellum south or blood and soil.

49:39

Apparently, they are.

49:40

But in the real world, this is what you ask about the hope.

49:45

Well, frankly, reality can only be bent until it breaks.

49:51

This is God's world.

49:53

He made it.

49:54

He designed it.

49:55

He took man and created him and put him in the garden, and now it's fallen.

50:00

But man still is to exercise dominion, just as a rock will fall off the cliff every single time it's attempted.

50:09

Certain societal trends can only take place up to a certain point, and they break.

50:15

In the 20th century, it was the bloodiest century that mankind has ever gone through, and it's because people turned their back on God, and they thought, oh, we're going to create this Eden, this new society.

50:28

So, yeah, that's on that big global scale.

50:32

However, we keep coming back to your primary responsibility, the home, local governance.

50:41

That matters incredibly more in a local area than what's going on, say, in the halls of Congress, right? It's going to touch you at a deeper level, and this is one of the reasons I wanted to bring John Moody, because he is also thinking in terms of getting your own house in order, especially when dealing with the most fundamental of human needs.

51:08

We need to eat.

51:08

You know, we have some food, you know.

51:12

So, we're in an area here that's very agricultural.

51:16

Most people know how to keep chickens and have eggs and hunt in the fall and venison and all that, and I know not everybody can.

51:25

This is, again, one of these rural, urban, cautionary tales that I still want someone to write the definitive 21st century country mouse, city mouse fable and make it funny with drawings so I can enjoy it.

51:41

But, so, yeah, just because after World War II, this is what the United States looked like after, you know, we finally acquired Hawaii when we had the 50 states on the flag.

51:54

In Alaska.

51:55

Don't forget about them.

51:56

That's right.

51:57

That's right.

51:58

Seward's Folly.

51:59

That's right.

52:02

So, yeah, just because that has been our reality for the last 70 years or so doesn't mean it's going to be the reality for the next 100.

52:13

The kind of ideological fracas that you see on college campuses, in city, anytime there's a public debate or anything like that, you realize that there's one side that looks at reality and says, yes, this is the world God has made.

52:36

And I'm saying very general terms.

52:38

This is reality.

52:39

We need to work with this.

52:40

There's another side that's saying, no, none of that matters.

52:44

What's important is in my head.

52:46

So, I think that's the impetus for, you know, green energy, supposedly.

52:50

We're going to just make this stuff work and it doesn't work.

52:53

My goodness, the amount of effort and labor.

52:57

It's kind of akin to our space program.

52:59

You know, we don't have the technology yet to get from here to above the atmosphere.

53:03

And it just expends enormous energy trying to save energy.

53:07

It's ridiculous.

53:09

We see this.

53:09

In Maine, little tangent in Maine right now.

53:11

I mean, they have this problem with, we're going to put up all these wind farms in the ocean and ruin the fishing industry, right? Yeah.

53:19

Not thinking through that one.

53:21

Yeah, right, right.

53:22

Or the debacle, was it in Scotland or Ireland, where they cut down a forest to make room for a wind farm? That was Scotland.

53:31

They're literally trees making oxygen out of carbon dioxide.

53:36

And you're going to go, hey, here's an idea.

53:39

Let's cut them down, you know? So, yeah, all of these kind of plans.

53:45

And another related tangent is the old Thatcher quote that socialism works until you run out of other people's money.

53:56

So, my prediction is similar, only I think that in these Christian gentlemen, statesmen, men with character, understanding the times, know what to do, even in your localized situation.

54:16

The people that would like to see everything flattened out, multicultural to the point of one monoculture, which, of course, that means Christianity's out.

54:28

You can't have Christians in that.

54:30

They don't like that.

54:32

The one bulwark against that is going to be the church.

54:35

It's going to be healthy churches that aren't giving in to the zeitgeist, that understand that the kingdom of God is the rule of God, and that God put people in families, and families are good things.

54:50

You don't just negate all of the physical reality.

54:55

What you were describing earlier just reminded me of some of the two kingdom guys.

54:59

You know, we got the church, and then we got this world over here, and yeah, it's like, man.

55:07

Well, I mean, I'm a two kingdom guy, but you're talking about the Escondido type.

55:11

Yes, yes.

55:12

Radical, the two shall not come together ever.

55:16

Yeah, well, the idea that the Bible doesn't inform public policy.

55:23

Yeah, we all know the quotes that the Bible alone, right, because it doesn't give us what the right speed limit should be at Wallace Middle School.

55:31

Okay, but it gives us principles.

55:33

We want to protect life.

55:35

We want to encourage people to not drive in such a way as to endanger human life.

55:40

All of those are ethical concerns, and they all come from the Bible.

55:44

So this idea that the radical separation of church and state, there are some pretty big hurdles that we have to get over before we're really helping Christians think about their relationship to the world around them, to the physicality of the world, and the reality of the political system in which they live.

56:08

So why wouldn't we want Christ to be king of that and have his reign more manifest, starting in your home, local, county, state, and on and on.

56:21

So if they're not going to do it at whatever level it is, okay, take dominion where you are.

56:28

I think the classical two kingdoms paradigm is you have temporal world, and then you have the spiritual realm, right? And Christ is Lord of both.

56:39

It's not like Christ is only Lord of one of them.

56:42

I get the impression from the R2K guys, the radical two kingdom guys, if you will, or I don't know, reform two kingdom, whatever they want to call themselves, that Christ is kind of more Lord of one of them, I guess.

56:59

The church does the church thing.

57:02

The state does the state thing.

57:04

And the state does their state thing via natural law.

57:09

You have nothing to glean from the Bible.

57:11

The Bible is only for the church.

57:13

Special Revelation is only for Christians.

57:15

And you have to argue on different premises, if you ever...

57:18

And it's kind of like, we can argue on...

57:20

That's the funny thing to me, too, is because God gave us natural revelation, actually, you can make some pretty good arguments.

57:28

You want to argue for gay marriage? Well, let's start with creation, right? But the thing is, eventually, you do have to...

57:39

And this was across the board for every Protestant country initially after the Reformation.

57:45

And I would say even the Catholic church before that.

57:47

I mean, you had to have biblical support for at least some of...

57:53

At least you would take the principles.

57:54

You'd glean the principles from the Bible.

57:57

And the idea was, though, that that complemented the natural order, that there wasn't any conflict there.

58:04

So if the Bible said it, it wasn't...

58:07

That was also inbred or integrated into creation itself.

58:11

If the Bible assumes marriage is between a man and a woman, guess what? God designed it to be between a man and a woman.

58:17

So it's just...

58:19

To separate those things, it seems like it's a very particular strain of theology that only could exist in this secular state kind of enlightenment liberalism that we...

58:34

That's right.

58:34

It's meant...

58:35

It's literally theology to complement a particular political order that is about three seconds old and isn't really working that well if you look around you.

58:43

That's right.

58:44

The R in front of the 2K, and it's not working now.

58:50

That's the thing.

58:52

Even on a pragmatic level.

58:54

But you can't apply that to any other nation, state, or country that's not already firmly based upon Christianity.

59:05

Because try that in Dubai or Kuwait.

59:09

It wouldn't work for us for a second.

59:12

And that's kind of our, I guess, blindness is that we actually do have a religion that's kind of a monoculture or an anti-culture that we all are meant...

59:22

We have to pinch our incense to it.

59:25

And we don't realize that's what we're doing.

59:27

But I think the jab in 2020 kind of got people out of this mindset a little because they thought, wait a minute, how come this is almost like a religious sacrament that everyone must go through? And as they cry out to the gods of government to save them from the disease or the hurricane or whatever ailment affects us.

59:46

And I think we realize there's a statism going on.

59:50

But we've been doing this, I think, for years.

59:54

As government increases, we've been giving them more and more of our allegiance.

59:58

Think of the wacky idea that a yellow bus without seatbelts comes down the road and takes your children from you.

01:00:07

Like this is just normal to everyone.

01:00:10

But this was not normal for most of human history.

01:00:13

And for eight hours or whatever time it is, sometimes longer if they have sports and stuff, they're in a building, a government building with people that aren't their parents and aren't even necessarily now, I would say, trusted members of the community in many cases, teaching them, filling their heads with it.

01:00:33

Like that's bonkers if you think about it.

01:00:35

I realize there's people in situations, economically, whatever, that they kind of have to try to disciple their children even through that.

01:00:44

But that's insane, right? To set up a system like that and think that's normal.

01:00:50

That's not normal.

01:00:51

Well, and it's not reality.

01:00:53

When in your life are you going to be in proximity with people that are almost exactly your age? Yeah, well, there's that too.

01:01:02

Yeah, pulling of ignorance.

01:01:03

That whole thing.

01:01:04

You're talking to an inveterate old homeschooler here.

01:01:07

But hey, Tim, I got a good idea.

01:01:09

Let's get a bunch of kids who are at the height of their hormones.

01:01:12

Let's put them all and trip it over themselves.

01:01:17

Let's get some pagans in the world who ate God to train them about sexuality.

01:01:24

Then let's put them in the same room for, give them all the, let's give them free condoms.

01:01:29

Let's force bus them to areas that there's even less accountability because no one knows them there.

01:01:36

And that's for diversity sake, because that's a higher good.

01:01:40

And let's just see what happens.

01:01:42

You don't think anything could go wrong with this? Right.

01:01:45

I mean, even Chris Rock joked about this, living in a neighborhood saying, when I got in trouble, I wasn't just going to get spanked when I get home.

01:01:54

The whole neighborhood is going to give me a squat on the way home because they know me and they know my parents and they know what I did.

01:02:00

Right.

01:02:01

So there's, yeah, the thing about living in an actual community, in other words, a physical location.

01:02:11

First of all, it's inescapable.

01:02:13

You got it.

01:02:13

You have a physical body going to live somewhere, going to work somewhere, going to raise your kids somewhere.

01:02:18

So how about the Christians stop thinking in these secular neutral ways, because they're not real.

01:02:27

That is not reality.

01:02:29

And start taking dominion over those little local municipalities in ways that honor Christ, that will get opposition from the pagans.

01:02:39

And yet keep trucking.

01:02:41

Be anti-fragile.

01:02:43

Try your best, man.

01:02:44

Well, what did Jesus say? If they hate me, they're going to hate you.

01:02:48

Hate you.

01:02:48

Right.

01:02:49

They hate me first.

01:02:51

And they're going to think about the reasons that Jesus was crucified from the human perspective.

01:02:59

He was slandered, lied about, false testimony was given.

01:03:03

Of course, even that didn't quite carry the day.

01:03:06

You know, it was ultimately, well, we're just done.

01:03:09

We're not going to deal with this guy anymore.

01:03:11

Well, the same Christians are going to get that.

01:03:12

And that's one of the myths about post-millennialists is that everything's rosy.

01:03:17

No, this is going to be a battle.

01:03:21

And that's why we call it battle hymns.

01:03:23

Because the Christian life is a battle.

01:03:26

But it's not just in here, as important as that is, personal sanctification.

01:03:31

But it's a battle for taking dominion, godly dominion in a world that still hates King Jesus.

01:03:38

And yet Jesus says, that's mine, that's mine, that's mine.

01:03:42

Now go get it, you guys.

01:03:43

So if you want to be inspired, if you want to be around like-minded believers, if you want to have a great time, if you want to have...

01:03:49

Do I understand pulled pork is going to be there? You understand correctly.

01:03:54

Pulled pork.

01:03:55

Then you need to come to the Jesus in Politics Conference in Syracuse, Indiana.

01:03:59

Link is in the info section.

01:04:01

What are the dates again? It's October 21st.

01:04:04

And let me just throw this out there.

01:04:07

Next year is 2024.

01:04:09

There won't be anything going on.

01:04:11

So we're going to...

01:04:15

So I'm thinking...

01:04:16

You don't think so, huh? Not in October, no? And what's cool about it...

01:04:21

You know, Joe Spurgeon has come every year.

01:04:24

You've come two out of the three.

01:04:26

It's becoming kind of a cool family event of sorts.

01:04:30

And I've got a couple guys on the line for next year.

01:04:34

We'll see, but they've already committed.

01:04:36

Are they big names? Is that what you're getting at? They're in our circles.

01:04:44

One of them had an Amazon bestseller.

01:04:47

Something about an ax to the root of a tree.

01:04:50

Ah, yes.

01:04:51

I think I know who you're talking about.

01:04:53

The other one had a little something to do with a thing called PayPal.

01:04:57

Oh, wow.

01:04:58

Yeah, I know exactly who you're talking about.

01:05:00

So I'm thinking, let's make it a two-day event.

01:05:06

If people are going to be traveling here, there's plenty of lodging all over the place within 10 minutes of the event center.

01:05:15

And maybe expand it out, because next year is going to be...

01:05:21

You're already talking about next year, Tim.

01:05:22

You've got to stop, because you've got to get past this year first.

01:05:25

I mean, you never know.

01:05:28

I could say something politically incorrect and train wreck the whole brand of Jesus and politics.

01:05:33

That could happen.

01:05:34

Well, we edited that out in post.

01:05:37

Okay, all right.

01:05:37

Well, the good thing you have the editors.

01:05:40

All right, so in all seriousness, though, sign up, come.

01:05:44

It is very reasonably priced.

01:05:45

There's even a family rate.

01:05:48

I think the advantage to these things primarily isn't even the speakers, though, that the speeches are great.

01:05:53

It's being around people, and it's having a meal together, and networking, and getting to know each other.

01:06:03

You're in kind of in the middle of a very, I would say, monolithic area in Syracuse.

01:06:07

People are generally...

01:06:09

They look the same.

01:06:11

I hope you're not insulted by this.

01:06:13

But they live in very similar fashion.

01:06:16

But you come to the conference, and you've got people coming in from Chicago, and all kinds of places.

01:06:21

There's all different people there, but they're all brothers in Christ, sisters in Christ, love the Lord, love each other.

01:06:27

And Tim, I can't believe we just did this whole entire podcast.

01:06:30

We've been going over an hour, which is amazing.

01:06:33

It feels like 20 minutes.

01:06:34

But we never once mentioned these terms.

01:06:37

And this was not intentional.

01:06:38

We never once mentioned Christian nationalism.

01:06:40

We never once mentioned G3.

01:06:43

We never once...

01:06:45

We did not...

01:06:46

Well, I guess you mentioned Doug Wilson in passing.

01:06:48

But some of the hot topics out there...

01:06:51

No enemies to the right.

01:06:52

I thought we were going to talk about that.

01:06:53

We didn't even mention it.

01:06:55

And we filled up more than an hour.

01:06:57

It's amazing to me.

01:06:58

There we go.

01:06:59

We could have our own show, and just let us go, and talk about, I don't know, toothpicks or pizza, and just, you know, one hour on the subject.

01:07:07

The relationship to that uncooked bit of meat.

01:07:11

So anyway, well...

01:07:13

Folks, this conference is going to be very encouraging.

01:07:17

At the very least, as John just said, you come and you network.

01:07:22

You get to know people that are like-minded, that have a vision of Christianity that's beyond the four walls of the church, and beyond just personal salvation.

01:07:37

As important, and central, and foundational as that is, Jesus takes dominion over his entire world.

01:07:44

Don't let your eschatology get in the way.

01:07:47

You know, come on.

01:07:48

Join us, the Via Media.

01:07:51

All right.

01:07:51

That's a good pitch.

01:07:52

All right, Tim.

01:07:53

God bless.

01:07:53

Hope you enjoy the rest of your day, and we'll see you in October.