Episode 90: Life After Postmillennialism (An Interview with Jon Speed)

Welcome to the Ruled Church Podcast. This is my beloved son, with whom

I am well pleased. He is honored, and I get the glory. And by the way, it's even better, because you see that building in Perryville, Arkansas?

You see that one in Pechote, Mexico? Do you see that one in Tuxla, Guterres, down there in Chiapas? That building has my son's name on it.

The church is not a democracy. It's a monarchy. Christ is king. You can't be

Christian without a local church. You can't do anything better than to bend your knee and bow your heart, turn from your sin and repentance, believe on the

Lord Jesus Christ, and join up with a good Bible -believing church, and spend your life serving

Jesus in a local, visible congregation. Last week on the Ruled Church Podcast, we had a pretty distinguished guest with Dr.

Sam Waldron. Now we're even upping that. We're going even higher than Dr.

Sam Waldron with these brothers, Jonathan Murdock and Jon Speed. How are you guys doing today?

Dude, you were scraping the bottom of the barrel. I think he's under a piece of barrel.

Underneath it, yeah. We're the dirt on the bottom of it, like on the outside of the bottom.

Jon, you run in circles at like— I'm like, hey, do you know Jon Speed? And people are like, oh,

I know Jon Speed. And I'm like, that's crazy. How do you know so many people? I've done a lot of different stuff.

So I got started in ministry, well, after I got saved. Pastoring a church, got saved.

That helps a lot when you get saved and you're pastoring. I got involved in street evangelism.

I ended up doing a lot of work with Living Waters, Great Comforts Ministry. And so I helped out with their evangelism boot camps and stuff.

So I got to just know a lot of people face -to -face that way. And then through the abolition side of things, you know, babies are murdered here.

Babies are still murdered here and all that, done with that. Then I got to know a bunch of people that way. So I've been in ministry now for 32 years.

And some of it is just longevity, you know. You just don't need a lot. He posted a little post -it note on a door one time that got some fame.

Oh, yeah, that too. I forgot about that. Yeah, we shut our bookstore down for a day back in 2019 to protest

New York State's Reproductive Health Act. That went viral and ended up on Fox & Friends and Hannity and Glenn Beck and all that.

So, yeah, that would do it too. Well, we're without our normal co -host,

Eddie Ragsdale. Miss him. I'm Allen Nelson, one of the pastors at Providence Baptist Church in Perryville, Arkansas.

You heard a little bit about John Speed. I guess if you're a longtime listener of the podcast, you remember

Jonathan Murdock. He's been on a few different times. This may be like your fourth or fifth time,

Jonathan. But Jonathan is one of the pastors at Trinity Baptist Church in Port Arthur, Texas.

And we've been talking the last few weeks. This is not like turning into an eschatology podcast, but that's kind of been the theme.

And so we've walked through some different things about eschatology. And what

I wanted to do today is really just have a conversation with these brothers and talk. Focus on John.

And, John, I'll kind of turn over to you in just a second. But focus on John.

You're kind of moving away or, I mean, you wouldn't call yourself all meal at this point, but you're kind of moving away from post -meal.

Is that a fair description? Yeah, that's very accurate. And, Jonathan, anything

I should have asked you? Anything you want to jump in here at the beginning? So, John, a question that I have is just for clarity.

I mean, people are going to probably react to this and say, you know, all kinds of accusations, whatever, you know.

That's what they normally do. You know, like if you question a camp or whatever. So you're in a transition period, maybe revisiting some things that you looked at years ago, coming out of not only post -millennialism, but Reconstruction theonomy.

And I wouldn't say I'm completely coming. I never really was a full blown Reconstructionist, but I still would not have issues with theonomy.

So let me just pause. I should have told you guys this before the show. So we really, so I know that there's some members of Eddie's church that listen.

There's some members of my church that listen. And there's some kind of a wide variety of people that listen.

So can we, as we begin here, can we just throw out, because we throw out theonomy,

Reconstructionist. I'm just nervous. Some people are like, whoa, you've lost me.

What in the world are you talking about? So one of your brothers, you guys want to just jump in, just give like the basic lay level definitions of what we're talking about with Reconstructionism, theonomy.

Well, I would just say theonomy, I mean, literally just breaks down the law of God. So when you're talking about man's law, the way that I look at it, and this is why

I may not really be a Reconstructionist per se, is that when we're advising lawmakers as to laws that they're writing, we refer to the law of God as a standard and say, you need to consider what

God's law says about these things. And that's, you know, and I think pretty much every theogonist holds to general equity.

And what that means is you take the principles of the law, not necessarily the letter of the law, but the principles of the law, and apply those principles to whatever situation you're dealing with.

You see the Apostle Paul do that when he talks about paying ministers, paying pastors, elders, paying them because it's, you know, you...

Don't muscle an ox, yeah. Don't muscle the ox, right? And so this doesn't have to do with ox. Like he says, it doesn't have to do with oxen.

You know, he's applying it there in a general sense, not specifically.

And so, like, that's pretty much what I see being a reasonable approach to how why we have all scriptures given by inspiration is profitable.

What purpose does the law of God have in regards to civil law? It has a good advisory role to the government is supposed to be bearing the sword against the evildoer.

And so, from Romans 13, so I think that's, they have to know the difference between good and evil and the law of God defines that.

So when it comes to theonomy, I do hold to that view of it. Reconstruction goes a bit further, a bit further, it goes a lot further.

And I mean, like, they're expecting, I think, to have a complete and total law of God situation within the culture.

And maybe that's where my postmill starts breaking down anyway. Like, I don't know that we're ever going to see that.

And almost to me, the way I've been thinking about it is it's almost like postmillennial cosplay or something.

Like when we talk about her fan fiction or something, when we think like that, it's just not a reality,

I don't think. But that's sort of... It's kind of interesting on the general equity theonomy.

Tom Hicks is doing some really great stuff. He's actually about to come out with a book with Sam Waldron on theonomy and defining general equity.

And he makes the point, a lot of people define general equity wrongly, like in the

Second Lenten Baptist Confession when it says only the general equity, right? And he makes the point, what their intent there was, was the standard of general equity would be the

Ten Commandments. And so you take, don't muzzle an ox.

We take that and apply that, as Paul does, because you're not to steal from the one who labors in the text.

And so this filter for the general equity would be the moral law. It's interesting. He has some really great stuff on that.

I don't want to occupy that. But that's exactly kind of what you were saying, is that the reconstruction side is going to say, no, you have an ox, don't muzzle it.

Yeah, some of them. Although I do think, like you read Bonson, Theonomy and Christian Ethics, and I guess he would be considered a reconstructionist, but he's pretty heavy on that view on general equity.

And so, yeah, I don't know. I mean, I just know, the thing that I know just reading the old reconstructionists and stuff, they had a much more maybe aggressive slash expectancy or something that we were going to get, like everything.

And that does tie in with post -militarism. Well, I'm just going to make one more connection, just as we're walking through, just kind of beginning people's listening, some people trying to wrap their minds around this.

So what is the connection between this and, if you want to call it, the resurgence of Christian nationalism or even just the beginning?

What's the connection between these things? From my view, from where I'm sitting, even though I'm open to Theonomy, and I hold to Theonomy, and I still like the post -millennial view of the kingdom,

I don't see the Christian nationalism thing as directly related. And I know that there is a relation, because there's guys in that world, the post -millennial reconstruction slash

Theonomy world that like the Christian nationalism stuff. The stuff that you hear from Christian nationalism isn't really much based completely on the law of God, not rightly applied for sure, not with that sort of filter that Jonathan was talking about.

And so a lot of their stuff is just, I just say it's just nationalism. Yeah. It's like Christless conservatism.

A lot of it is Christless conservatism. Now they'll use, they'll talk about Christ, they'll talk about Christian things, but I think when you get down to the meat of what they're saying, there's no

Christ in that. Some of the stuff that they're saying is just so off the charts that I've never saw myself as a

Christian nationalist, even though I hold to Theonomy. Maybe I'm an oddball.

I don't know. Yeah, well, you are the oddball for sure. No, we're just kind of trying to lay out some definitions as we kind of get into this.

I'm trying to be pastoral here. I'm thinking about people listening to this, that they're not on Twitter, they're not on, they don't even know if you said

Stephen Wolf, they don't know that name. Even if you said Doug Wilson, they don't know that name.

So they're just kind of in the dark and we're trying to walk through and try to help.

And like I said, and this would be like two episodes ago, but I do wish, and I hope

I can model this, I do want to see more charitable discussions in these things. I think these things matter.

I think they actually really matter. And they really affect the way that we view the church and like you even have talked about the kingdom.

So these are very important, but we should be able to sit down as brothers. So that's why I'm really grateful that you're on here with us,

John. I think maybe I cut you off, Jonathan. Was there something that you're going to say there? No, no.

Just maybe the question, what would you say as you're reconsidering all this, what was it that caused you to start reconsidering?

Yeah. I've always had issues with sort of the problem passages that honestly post -millennialism has.

So some of them are very simple concepts. You've brought it up before,

I think. It's either me or maybe it was Cody and Cody told me about it. But the idea that Jesus says very clearly, broad is the way that leads to destruction.

Many go down that road. Narrow is the way that leads to light. Is that true or not?

And so there's that. And then for me, the book of Revelation has not made much sense to me.

Other than the early chapters, I would say, I could say, okay, at 70 AD, Jerusalem was destroyed.

You can make the argument that Revelation is talking about that.

But the further I get into it, the book of Revelation, I'm not seeing that.

I wasn't satisfied. I'll say it that way. I wasn't satisfied with that interpretation.

Now, this is where some people are going to say, well, have you read Gentry's commentary yet? Well, no,

I don't have it yet. It's in the mail. Actually, we just found out it's in the mail. So I'm going to be looking at it.

But I'm reading William Hendrickson's book on Revelation. And that makes more sense to me in the sense that he's looking at it like you've got these cycles through the book of Revelation that are going through like the church advance and then persecution and judgment.

Right. And so you've got that cycle going and just repeating through the book. What do you see in 2000 years of church history?

You see in various places the church advanced, the post -millennialists in those places go nuts. It's about Jonathan Edwards went a little bit crazy when he heard about a bunch of Jewish people come into Christ during his lifetime.

Even Ian Murray wrote a book called The Puritan Hope that talks about the advancement, but he doesn't deal with the destruction of the advancement.

Right. And so how do they have the advances? Well, they often have them through persecution.

And that's what you see in Revelation. And so I'm seeing that cycle and I see it in church history.

I've seen it in my life. You get to a place where you get old enough. You've lived through some things. You see these periods.

And I am very attracted to that. So that's been the main thing.

And I do think, look what Jesus says. He says, if any man comes after me, let him take up his cross and come follow me.

That means be willing to die. That's the gold standard. Right. That's like what saving faith looks like when it's played out in your life.

You're willing to die. Why is that necessary? Why was that so important for Jesus to say that if it wasn't necessary?

Right. That the way it's going to be for the church is you're going to have to lay down your life.

And I think a lot of this stuff that's being, whether it's Christian nationalism or you want to put it like a neo post -millennial label, they're not talking like that.

They're not talking about sacrifice. They're not talking about laying your life down.

They're talking about advancements that they expect right now in their life now that totally flies in the face of sacrifice.

Well, it's even worse than that. Just correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm not only hearing not talking about sacrifice, but I'm hearing if you do sacrifice, you're a pietist.

And that's what I'm hearing. The warning that they're giving to these young men, and you guys can correct me if I'm wrong, but you don't have to make a sacrifice for missions because you need whatever you're going to sacrifice.

So you don't have to make a sacrifice to send money to a guy in Latin America because you might need new tires for your car.

I mean, that's what they're telling these guys. Yeah.

So the problem is, and this opened up a can of worms, and I don't even know your guys' position on this, but the problem is a book like Radical comes out, and that's like 15 years ago now or something, and it has its problems.

And obviously I don't mind publicly saying I hope David Platt will never listen to this, but I hope if he does that he would repent and come back.

He's gone in a very dangerous and terrible direction. But the problem is looking at his life now, and then look at some of the problems in the book, and then just completely throwing away everything about that, when actually there's some helpful,

I think, exhortations to the church for the advancement of the kingdom. It's kind of funny.

In our church here, there's a discussion of Radical. I was living in Mexico, in the ghetto of Mexico City.

I just had over $15 ,000 stolen from me. All I had to live on had 50 pesos and was basically being supported minimally.

I was living very minimally. I made some sacrifices to live there when

I read Radical, and I really enjoyed Radical. And some guys at the church were like, yeah, because you were the example.

It was easy for you to like it because you were what he was talking about, right? But I enjoyed aspects of Radical because I felt like this is what we're called to.

Like John said, take up your cross and follow me. But now you mentioned Radical, and it's like, that was pietistic living.

And I'm like, you're right. And we're trying to be pietists, right? I've seen a few posts where people say, it's the most damaging book ever written or something like that.

And I'm like, God, that's hyperbole. Yes, it's got some issues, of course. More so than Good Morning Holy Spirit by Benny Hinn or whatever it is.

Or their Late Great Planet Earth or whatever. So anyway,

I kind of cut you off there getting some clarification, but go on, John. Sorry. No, I don't remember what

I was doing. Where were we at? Well, you used a phrase, and I've used this phrase too, but you used a phrase, neo -post -mill.

And I'm not trying to be pejorative. I'm not trying to punch people with that. But I'm trying to give a distinction that I think is warranted.

So you want to talk about that? Sure. It's true if you look at most of the

Puritans, not all of them, but most of the Puritans were post -millennial. And a lot of the guys that were founders of the missionary movement were as well.

And so there was a post -millennialism that, obviously, in the early missionary movement, those guys were sacrificing.

They were laying their lives down, watching their kids and their wives die on a mission field.

And the Puritans lost everything in the Great Ejection or whatever they call it.

And so all of that does not come to bear on what the new version of post -millennialism seems to be, the popular.

And I mean, there are people that are still like that. There are post -millennial people that are very godly people, and they're pursuing godliness, and they're pursuing the word.

But there's a thing now that's really more carnal that is focusing on trying to advance now.

They talk like they're doing the long -term game, but everything that they talk about in the long -term game means that they have to have success now and no sacrifice now, as Jonathan was getting at.

I'll just say it, and I say it carefully because I do have friends in that world, but I do think a lot of what's coming out of Moscow is that way.

At least that's the PR, that's the marketing on what they're doing in Moscow is that we're having these great advances physically.

We've bought this percentage of the town or whatever, and we've got this many people here and all these things that we're building in Moscow.

And I'm using that just as an example to say that that's kind of what

I'm talking about with neo -post -mill. And it wouldn't just be limited to that, but that kind of mindset,

I guess, is what I mean. One of the things that I think is very interesting is

I read a book this past year, The Puritan Millennium by Crawford Gribben.

I don't know if there's a more scholarly guy doing work on millennialism right now than Crawford Gribben.

You read one of his books, and over half the book is his sightings, just the notes that he writes.

But he wrote one called The Puritan Millennium. And what he does is he examines the idea, were the

Puritans post -millennial? And he talks about how they reached the height of society where they were post -millennial, and then they just saw it all be taken away.

Like you said, they lost everything. You look at the Covenanters. They signed this church covenant, and they're all take up our swords and this and that.

And then they start fleeing to the United States and escaping for their life because they lost their farms and everything.

And he just re -examines some of the writings at the end of their lives. And he cautions in the book, and he says, it's maybe dangerous to say these guys were this.

And one of the examples that he gives is John Bunyan in Holy War.

And the book Holy War is John Bunyan trying to work out his millennialism. And he really brings that out.

And so I think some of these guys, the newer guys, they're like, well,

I'm in the step with the Puritans, but they're really not. And I think that's what you're trying to bring out.

It's like, I'm acting like the Puritans. Well, you're actually not. I mean, you're not.

Yeah, sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt you. Go ahead. No, no, go ahead. I mean, you're right. You can't imagine some of these guys doing some of the things, like the

Puritans doing some of the things that are being done right now. They never advocated for it. They were very much, you would call them pietists.

And they would be called pietists today, even though they held on to a post -millennial view.

That's why they were called Puritans. Am I correct? What's that? That's why they were called Puritans. Yeah, they're purifying the church.

I mean, there was a derogatory term then. Yeah, yeah, right, right, right.

And so now it's become a derogatory term. It's ironic, isn't it? I mean, now the worst thing to be called on social media at the moment is a pietist who's in the, what do they say, a death spiral, a purity spiral.

I would like to see some of these guys care about purity and care about sacrifice and live the lives that the people are claiming as forerunners.

And that's another thing, honestly. I mean, as far as the neo -postmillennialism, that really is the thing that kind of got my attention, woke me up.

I'm like, whoa, what happened here to holiness?

When did that not matter anymore? And it becomes dangerous in your own thinking, because if you start to swallow this stuff and you start heading down that road, you start making justifications for things that you would never justify before that.

You know what I'm saying? We talk a lot in abolition about incrementalism and how that's bad in legislation.

How about incremental steps away from the truth of the gospel and away from purity and sanctification?

What do you say about sanctification if purity is a death spiral, right?

Just to be clear, you just said you're woke. Yeah, that's as woke as I get, bro.

So here's charitable. So a few weeks ago,

I said that what I appreciate about the dispensational camp, like I'm talking about John MacArthur, not

John Hagee or whatever, but what I appreciate about that camp is they really want to, at the best of the best, they want to take seriously the

Bible. No one's going to look at John MacArthur and be like, you don't take the Bible seriously. He wants to take the

Bible seriously. And so I'm appreciative of that, and I'm grateful. I mean, he's wrong on his eschatology, but I'm grateful for that.

So about these guys, I would say this. I think at the best of the best, there is a righteous frustration with the state of our culture.

It's like our culture today is terrible, and the ungodliness and the wickedness.

And so like the best of the best, I'm saying, and I see this as pushback on this, but I see this primarily as a younger man's game.

And so the best of the best, that's what I'm saying. Okay, you have a righteous frustration at the state of our culture today.

But what I see it turn into, and I know I've talked with Jonathan about this, maybe with you too,

John, but I've used the analogy of Rehoboam's friends.

Like Rehoboam, the son of Solomon, he's going to ascend the throne, and the people come to him and they're just like, hey, can you slack up a little bit?

And his young friends are like, I mean, it's not just like, no, but it's like, my pinky's thicker than my father's thigh.

My father disciplined you with whip, I'll discipline you with scorpions. It's just this arrogant, young refusal to listen to wisdom.

And brothers, I'm seeing that a lot in this sort of movement. If you listen to the podcast that the guys in Ogden did about their latest conference, which their latest conference really brought tremendous controversy.

I mean, if you go listen to the messages, Stephen Wolfe really promotes, in my opinion, a hard kinism in that conference, and they're defending it big time right now.

But when they talk about the conference, they said, we wanted to have a conference where you're not coming to get biblical conviction.

So they state this. We don't want you to be convicted biblically. That is for your church.

We want you to come and be encouraged, to leave encouraged.

We don't want the old men to come in and take our zeal. So that's the point of their conference.

And I'm sitting there listening, like, that's the story of Rehoboam. Like, old men, look, you can come and sit if you're going to cheer us on.

But if you're going to come and try to put restraint on us, you just stay at home. I want to say this, too, because I know, just to be clear,

I know people are going to accuse us of category errors, because I know Stephen Wolfe's eschatology is all millennial.

Right. So I'm just like, we know that. We get it. I understand. But there is kind of an overlap there, especially when you talk about Ogden.

Anyway, John, you were going to say something. Yeah. And that's the kind of thing

I'm talking about. If you watch what's going on right now, or recently, I guess not right now, a couple weeks ago, with all the blow up about the

Crusades stuff and James White coming out and trying to really get these guys to simmer down a little bit and realize what the

Crusades were really about. Yeah. The attacks that he's taken from the

Christian nationalism guys. And he's said it, and other people have said it.

I think Andrew Sandlin has said it as well. I believe he was Post Mill.

Sandlin has said the same thing. Like, you young guys need to learn to listen to older men.

And don't assume you know everything because you've looked it up on the internet or you saw it on social media.

And there's a blatant disrespect to that. Try to find that in the scripture.

I mean, Rehoboam's a great example of it, but read the book of Proverbs. I've said this recently.

Read the book of Proverbs. Do you want to get wisdom? Even in this group, you go back and listen to podcasts that they're doing two years ago.

And in one podcast, I heard Doug Wilson quoted 15 times. You listen now, and they don't mention

Wilson. It's because he's called them racist. You know,

Doug Wilson's calling them racist. The same guy who on the Syphus, I can't say the word,

Syphusinitian woman said that if Jesus was speaking to her today, he would call her the N -word, which we would disagree.

Like, that's not what Jesus was doing. But Wilson said that, making the point that this is a cultural battle.

And he's calling these guys racist. That's something. I mean, like, you have an issue, right?

Considering the fact, you know, I mean, yeah, considering some of the stuff you said about, I mean, honestly, biblical slavery versus 19th century

American slavery is a big difference. But he catches a lot of flack for saying that slavery, there's biblical versions of that.

Well, I would agree with that. But like, the fact is that to have him saying that is really something and really good for him for calling it out.

And I think that should be a pause for anybody. If you happen to be in that camp, that should be a serious pause for you.

No one's saying, by the way, later in that narrative, you have the old prophet, you remember the young prophet goes and calls out

King Jeroboam in Israel, and the old prophet comes and what does he do?

He gives him bad advice. And he listens to the old prophet and it cost him his life.

So no one's saying, like, old automatically equals right. That's not what we're saying. Right.

But there is a difference, isn't there? Between just the decorum, the demeanor,

I should say, of how you interact with these brothers who've been there, who've done the battles. It's very much like our culture.

So like people my age and younger, I'm 38, people my age and younger, there's a sense of entitlement.

OK, so you spend all this time working and now you get a company truck. I just started.

I want a company truck today. And you're like, wait a second. But this spills over into our theology camps as well.

So another thing I was going to ask you, so earlier you talked about you like the postmillennial view of the kingdom.

Am I quoting that right? Yeah. That's kind of what I want to get to as well. Like, let's flesh this kingdom.

Yeah. I think that's where the real problem lies. You know, my pushback against these guys has been on their definition of the kingdom.

John, what do you like about the postmillennial view of the kingdom? Well, if I'm reading the text on the kingdom, they're pretty clearly stating that Christ has dominion over all of it, everything, including nations.

And I'm talking, you know, back in the book of Daniel, I think it's chapter 7, the

Ancient of Days gives to the Son of Man all the kingdoms of the world. So when we were talking earlier,

Isaiah 9, 6 and 7, how does that kingdom advance? It advances in increments, slowly across time, but it advances.

And that's, you know, Psalm chapter 2, Christ's dominion over everything is evident in many of these texts.

And so, and just about all of them. And so that's what I like in terms of, because that's what the texts say.

The thing I say to my Presbyterian brothers is if I can't exegete it, I don't believe it.

And so that when I exegete the text related to the kingdom, I just can't see another way of interpreting that.

I do know the interpretations, but I can't make it line up consistently with what

I think is a solid hermeneutic to make it out to be anything else.

And so that's pretty much where I'm at. There's certainly a lot of that that I'm in agreement with.

I'm thinking about Ephesians 1. We talked about this, so we're doing an eschatology class on Wednesday nights, and we talked about verse 21 of 1, that Jesus seated far above all rule and authority and power and dominion and above every name that is named, not only in this age, but also in the one to come.

And he put all things under his feet and gave him his head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who feels all in all.

So Christ is king and Christ is king now. And just like we're not waiting on him to be head of the church, we're not waiting on him to be king.

He is king. All things are under his feet. But where I would disagree maybe is the kingdom recognized.

I see a difference between the authority of Christ over everything and then where that authority is,

I'll say, recognized and rejoiced in, and that's in the church.

Let me finish this. I want to make sure

I say this is that I recognize as well that where it's recognized is in the church.

And I would agree with that, but I do think you will see, and I think this actually squares with what

I'm saying about Millennialism and Revelation, right? So you have these periods where in various nations, and you've had it in church history, you've had it in England for a period under Cromwell, right?

You had it in Scotland for a period where you had the actual lived out expression of Christ's authority in that place, in those different places.

So that's where you see it. Every now and then you'll see it manifested over actual nations.

But where it is right, the church isn't, I always had this distinction and I'm not sure where it comes from, but the church is not the whole sum of the kingdom, but it is sort of the, what's the word?

It's not the right word, but guardian maybe, or it's entrusted with the keys to the kingdom, whatever you want to say.

And the church is the one that is primarily advancing the kingdom. But I do think that the reign of Christ over governments will be seen throughout church history at different points and in different places.

Even now there's a few places, not many, where there's efforts like that.

So yeah, that's kind of what I'm getting at. That's all I'll say about it. Yeah, thank you.

In my personal journey to Amillennialism, there was a time

I think I would consider myself, looking back now, I don't know if I would have known the term then, maybe post -millennial.

And the reason was because I left dispensationalism and I believe

Christ is King. I mean, He is King now. That's what led me out of what would, you know,

I read Ryrie's book and no, this can't be.

Christ is King now, right? Preaching through Ephesians, but before I get to the end of Ephesians 1,

Christ is King now, but I don't think He's in the fullness of His reign because He can't see it.

Right. That was my struggle. However, when I get to the passage that Alan just quoted, it says that He's given as the head of the church

His body. So He's given to rule over all things and that the extension of His rule and the flex of His power is given to the church.

And so how does that look? And that's when I begin to ask and you know, like Luke 17 20 says, the kingdom of God is not coming in ways that can be observed.

And so how can I reconcile Christ is King and in Hebrews 2, nothing is left outside of His control presently.

So there's not an advancement in the control of Christ over things because everything is subjected to Him now.

So in my mind, I'm working this all out. So how does that, how can we see that?

How can we see what? Yeah, how can we reconcile Christ is

King and yet there's a church that exists in North Korea that's being persecuted, right?

Yeah, I don't see that as, I actually see that as part of it. In the sense that because we say the blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church.

And so when I tie it back into revelation, that cycle that we're talking about, obviously in Korea, North Korea, they're in that stage of the cycle of intense persecution.

But at the same time, you know, the church thrives under that. And so we don't see it now, but in the way that I reconcile it anyway, this is how

I reconcile the yes to that question. So the way that I do it is I look at it and say, well, eventually that won't always be that way.

And that is what you see in Revelation. It's not always that way. Now, it might not, it might be that way right up until Christ returns.

That could be. And there will be places, as I look at it from a more amillennial standpoint,

I do believe now that when Christ returns, there will be people in that cycle of persecution.

So I'm not denying that. So on the return of Christ, you believe that part of the church will still be being persecuted?

Yeah. Yeah, because like I say, I am leaving post -millennialism. But it's the thing.

But how do I see it? When I look at the kingdom aspect, I see it that that's just the way the kingdom works.

You know, it seems to be that's what Jesus was saying regarding persecution and what you see in Revelation.

But in the end, Christ is victorious. He is king. He will take it all back. And we agree, you know, no matter where you fall on this, we all agree on that.

When He comes back on Revelation 19, He's slaying the nations. Yeah, yeah.

A sword coming to slay. We would agree with that. You know, you're reading

Hendrickson. I love the idea where Hendrickson shows these different scenes, right? The church is in the middle of being persecuted the whole time fighting against society.

Yeah. And then you get to the next scene. It's like, but the whole time, He's been seated on the right horse, groaning.

Yeah. And so that's where I see it. I mean, and so I don't know how far apart like we would really even be.

Other than I just tend to be more, I don't know if it's just the way

I'm wired or if it's just latent holding on in my DNA or something. But like,

I just see, I do see that Christ is victorious over the other thing

I'm preaching through Micah right now. And in Micah, you've got this idea of the remnant.

So the remnant, the residue of the people of God are just like, they're getting trashed.

I'm looking at Micah 7 last night, preaching it. And it's saying in Micah 7, you know, like the best of us are nothing more than briars.

And the upright are just basically a hedge. The upright being a hedge, you don't advance any kingdom being a hedge, right?

A hedge just as a defense of protecting structure. It's the best of us are basically not doing anything.

And you've got this whole thing with Steve Lawson. I mean, like that kind of the best of us are like worthless and like doing evil things.

Would you say that simultaneously you have, yes, the best of us are hedge. I mean, like we're sitting here.

I mean, the poorest guys on the planet. Yeah. And yet we just, our churches are involved in what's going on in South America.

It's absolutely insane what our churches are involved with. Like you can't, I'm telling somebody this, you can't figure.

Somebody asked me when I was up in Canada, how big is your church? They thought, when I'm talking about Mexico, talking about what we're doing in Canada.

Cody just gets back from Scotland. He's like, how big is your church? He's thinking like we got a thousand people.

I'm like, I don't know, we have 80 on Sunday morning. We're counting our pennies, how we're going to pay for the hotels down in Mexico.

And yet we're just no name nobodies. And these guys are saying, you know, one conference we did three years ago has completely radically transformed five churches.

Simultaneously, you have us being beat and walking in victory. And that's the remnant.

That's the residue. Because in Micah, by the time you get to chapter seven, that residue has, and this is where, again,

I come back to the kingdom thing. It's like basically it's taking over everything. And so, but it will happen through weakness.

And that's where this whole Christian nationalism, a lot of post -millennialism, neo -post -mill has got it wrong.

You and I had some pushback a while back. Like I define the kingdom as the church.

And I think you just said earlier, you think the kingdom is extended a little bit more. Yeah, right.

So has your view of the kingdom changed since you started on this journey to transition out?

I don't want to call you transitioning, but. Wow. I didn't mean that offensive.

Did you do pronouns? What's your pronouns now? What's your pronouns? Your Aunt Puba is my pronoun.

Yeah, the question is my view on the change. It has in the sense that I do see this, like what

I'm saying right now is that like he works through residue. The scum on the bottom of the pot or the barrel or under the barrel, right?

He works through the residue, not through our strength. That's different than what the neo -post -mill guys are saying.

And I think I did have that view as a co -founder at lore .tv,

right? So that was part of that, you know, thinking that we're going to cancel Hollywood.

And so, but it doesn't happen through strength. I don't think it happens through weakness.

And that is also something Jesus says about the kingdom. You know, it's small and that's residue.

And then it grows. Well, these are things that they're not really addressing. And I've said things like make sacrifice great again.

You know, make that great again, because that's how that residue is going to conquer.

Look, and I'll come back to this too. Think about this for a second, because in the post -mill world, this is pointed to.

Well, babies are murdered here. Babies are still murdered here. All of that did not come through a position of strength.

Like babies are murdered here was filmed with less than $3 ,000. And like God has raised up people all around the world to go out and stand in front of abortion clinics.

At the time it was First Baptist Church of Brier, but By the Word Baptist Church be going viral.

I was able to do all that because of the support of By the Word Baptist Church.

This tiny little church, like we're talking about, it's got nothing. And next thing you know,

I'm sitting on Fox News live telling the whole world the gospel. Right. So, like,

I didn't have any money to do that. God is pleased to take weakness and foolishness and advance the kingdom.

He's not looking out for us to build our little personal fiefdoms or something with castles and fine arts.

This is a good time to ask this question. What would you see the tools of the kingdom are?

Tools of the kingdom? Primarily, it's the gospel and primarily it's the church. It's the church taking the spread.

I mean, if you're going to say the kingdom advances, what are you advancing? It's got to be the gospel.

It's got to be local churches being planted. Even if you're going to take a post -mortem position, that should matter.

But you're listening a lot of post -mortem guys getting away from that. Getting away from church planting and local church related stuff.

The word of God. This is all very basic.

We're indebted, in a sense, to Rush Dooney for Christian education. Any guy today that would say we're not is in error.

I mean, he really brought back Christian education. I would disagree with his position on Christian education for the reason.

He presented we need Christian education to build the kingdom.

We need Christian schools. I would disagree with his position.

I'm thankful that my kids go to a classical Christian school. That's a fruit from Dooney to even

Douglas Wilson. I can't believe I'm saying that. My kid's school is part of the thing that he started.

But it's a great school. I'm glad for that. However, I want to rightly train my kids up so that they know

Christ. That's different from I'm trying to build the kingdom through a school.

You do it because it's the right thing to do. It's the right thing to do. When it comes to educating your children, that's biblical.

Deuteronomy 6 territory. We would agree with that.

We want to educate, but we're not saying I need to start another

Chick -fil -A. Here's something interesting to me. All these guys want to start these businesses to build the kingdom.

And yet they warn you not to shop at Hobby Lobby. I'm like, isn't that the

Christian business? They're the successful Christian business. Or don't eat

Chick -fil -A because they have hormones in their chickens. They're going to make you effeminate in the hormones. Do they say that?

Yeah. They will say that. The funny thing is, don't shop at the

Christian businesses, but wait for the Lord's Mark to start. You shop at the Lord's Mark because it's going to be more

Christian. And the reality is, we have the keys of the kingdom.

Jesus said that. That is the gospel. And through the gospel, we let people in.

And with the discipline of the gospel, we kick them out. In discipline.

This is from Calvin's Institute. It's a quote

I've used before. But Calvin says, In short, since the church is the kingdom of Christ, and he reigns only by his word, can there be any doubt as to the falsehood of those statements by which the kingdom of Christ is represented without his scepter?

In other words, without his sacred word. So the idea, what you asked earlier about the tools of the kingdom, or in that sense, you might say the weapons of the kingdom.

And that's Calvin. Then in our own confession, 1689, chapter 26, paragraph 3, you guys know the purest churches under heaven are subject to mixture and error.

And some have so degenerated as to become no churches of Christ, but synagogues of Satan.

Nevertheless, Christ always has had and ever shall have a kingdom in this world to the end thereof, of such as believe in him and make profession of his name.

So just a little bit of historical context there.

And I think what I wanted to say in all this discussion, what we really have to believe,

I think, and John, you helped me with this too, a few weeks ago, but I do think that this election is important.

I do think that what happens in the presidential election,

I think it matters. I think it's important. But we really got to ask ourselves this, what about that little bitty place?

So Jonathan and Pastor Randall, myself, we were going to meet with the leaders of the church.

What was like three men? That's it, right? It was like the pastor and three men. That's the half of the church membership, by the way.

Yeah. Yeah. And I'm like, okay. And so there's a little bitty church down there in Villa Hermosa, Tabasco, Mexico.

And the question that we have to ask ourselves is, okay, what's more, what's really, what's more important?

Maybe we could debate all that, but the point is that we're really tempted to say, what's going on?

The big news headlines, China election, all that, that's the most important thing that's going on in the world today.

But actually, we have this perspective, it's not. The most important things going on in the world today are going on in a little,

Briar's not even an incorporated community, right? A little unincorporated community, 30 miles west of Fort Worth, Texas, in, by the word,

Baptist Church. In a little bilingual assembly of believers in Trinity Baptist Church in Port Arthur.

A little handful of believers in Villa Hermosa, Tabasco, Mexico.

It's really, if we understand the kingdom, in my opinion, if we understand this rightly, then we're going to say, man,

I'm going to invest my life in these things, because these things are what

God is doing. So I'm very optimistic, actually. I know we can throw that term around, but I'm very optimistic about the success of the church.

I'm not optimistic about governments becoming Christian, or society.

So that's a distinction I think we need to make, because we get, as all

Millennialists, we get tagged with being pessimistic. But that's not true. We're presently optimistic.

That's just because of your general demeanor, Jonathan. Well, Brother Randall, you're not a pastor.

So we get tagged with being pessimistic. However, we are presently optimistic because we see the glory of the church.

Amen. So when I say, and I get in fights, I say

I get in fights. I don't get in fights, but I try to bring this up. This is what makes me madder than anyone. When these

Neo -Post -Millennialists are saying the church is losing. The church is not losing.

She cannot lose. That's right. That makes me get into another point. This is probably a whole other thing, but I believe that part of these guys' problem is that they came to Post -Millennialism as a doctrine in itself, and it's not built on the atonement of Christ, and the doctrine of God.

And so for me, I spent 10 years in Mexico only reading on the work of Christ.

Like all my personal reading, I focused on just the work of Christ and mostly in the

Puritans. Amen. So when somebody comes and says, well, the kingdom is something other than what was paid for by the blood of Christ, I'm saying

I can't accept it because Christ accomplished something by entering in by His own blood, and that's securing eternal redemption.

That's what He paid for. That's what He bought. So I can't say that the kingdom is something other than the church because I'm looking at the eternal election of God, the payment of the

Son, and the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit, and that can only be applied to souls whom

Christ entered for. And I'll tell you the thing that I appreciate the most about what you're saying here is that, and I think this is something

I've noticed in the last year, you don't hear much from the neo -post -mill world about the atonement.

You don't hear much at all about, and isn't that what this is all about? I mean, you talk about the tools.

What are the tools? If that's not the primary tool, if the all -sufficient sacrifice of Christ is not the thing that we are pushing, primary.

And this is where I even get in trouble, like in some camps, because I will always say,

I think they didn't really call me out on this at the conference I spoke at recently, not the one in East Texas, but a different one.

They wanted me to talk about being a pastor and being an abolitionist, and so I did. But I don't think

I gave them what they expected. What I said was like, the gospel is primary in this thing.

So wherever you see me out there, whether it's in a committee hearing, or if it's out in front of an abortion clinic or an

IVF clinic or wherever, I'm finding a way to get the gospel in there. I don't see that with a lot of this.

And so that's why, I might disagree with you on this scope of the kingdom, but I totally agree with you that it's all got to be gospel -centered.

And one thing I've appreciated about your ministry over the years is your, and Pastor Randall especially, unrelenting focus on that.

And I don't see that in that world. So I'm preaching through Hebrews, and the whole point of Hebrews is to let the people know what they have, so they'll worship rightly.

See that in chapter 12. Something's promised in chapter 6, a promise and an oath.

You have this verse I'm preaching actually this week, two unchangeable things. The two unchangeable things is a promise and an oath, and they're unchangeable because God cannot lie.

You have something promised, and you have an oath made, and those are the unchangeable things. And then you have this brought out in chapter 9, chapter 8 being, it's the new covenant, promised and oath.

And chapter 9, this is how the new covenant is sealed by the blood of Christ. And then you have this verse in the end of chapter 11, that we have received what was promised to them because something better was given to us.

And chapter 12 comes back and says, therefore receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken. So you have this line of what was promised is the kingdom, and what the kingdom was bought with his blood of Christ.

And that's what we've received that they didn't receive, that apart from us, they can't be made perfect.

And so you have this whole structure of what the kingdom is in the book of Hebrews, and it's directly tied to the atonement.

And it can't be outside of the atonement. And the call for having received it is that we would worship.

So maybe this is another aspect that I want to talk to you about, the spiritual and the physical aspect.

In some circles, and especially in Neo -Post -Millennialism, this idea of two kingdoms is a cuss word.

It's a bad, bad thing. Bad, bad, bad, bad. But would you see yourself more sympathetic to the idea of two kingdom theology?

I would probably be more sympathetic. I probably am more sympathetic to it. I see, like we were just talking about,

I think that you're looking at who's got the keys to the kingdom.

The church is exercising that. I can see that. I'm sympathetic, but I can't quite yet buy it.

Yeah, sure. There's a guy named Meredith Klein. He pushed back against Bonson.

Matter of fact, him and Bonson had a couple of debates. But Meredith Klein brings out something, and I read something from him not long ago that really brought this out.

I thought it was interesting. Take Adam and Eve in the garden, and they're given a mandate.

Be fruitful, multiply, fill the earth. And do not eat of this tree. And he makes the point, if they don't eat of the tree, they still don't receive glorification until their work is done.

Therefore, the reality of their reward is not earthly, but eternally. So when they fill the earth, then their work is done, and then they'll receive the eternal reward.

And I just thought that was interesting. We're speaking in hypothetical situations. They did eat the fruit.

They did fall. And now we live in this fallen world. But he brings out the point that even the nature of their reward in the garden wasn't here.

But it was eternally. And I think that's a good point that he brings out there.

And I think that that idea fights against the nature of these guys, where they say the keys of the kingdom are wealth and prosperity.

So just turn the conversation here. It's been a long conversation, and I appreciate you, brothers.

What practical, maybe we'll just kind of try to find a place to land here, but what are some practical implications here for the church?

Because the focus of our podcast is the Rural Church Podcast, and we like to think about things that are going on.

But how does this matter to the people in Perryville, Arkansas?

What is our view on these things? Why does it matter? What relevance and impact does it have to the way

I view and live and serve the local church? Well, I think you have to think about how you invest your life.

I think if you are investing your life in order to make the most money that you can make and become as successful as you can become in a business or something like that, and you're thinking,

I'm going to invest my life into this business so that I can give something to my kids, and they can pass it down to their kids, and we can do this thing where we hold on to our money and build the biggest mini -kingdom that we can, or are you going to invest your life in the church?

Are you going to invest your life in your local church and serving that church? Are you going to invest your life in missions and planting churches so that people that don't have a local church can have a local church

I mean, that's the big question, I think, when it comes to how does it flesh out in life? And wherever you land on your eschatology,

I think you have to weigh that out. And I don't know how you can honestly read the

New Testament and the calls to discipleship and the epistles, the pastoral epistles and the rest of it, and come away from it going, yeah,

I think I'm just going to build my own little dynasty. You know what I mean? You're selling your whole life out short.

I know I'll face criticism for that, I don't even care. And I've tried it.

Maybe that'll still work at some point. I still own a big chunk of this company. But the fact is that what really matters is the advancement of the gospel, and if you're going to even say it's the kingdom, that matters.

And so you need to invest in the church and not let the thinking that's out there get you off target with that.

And not just the church, it's ultimately Christ that Jonathan's bringing out. It's all about him.

It's about the atonement. Invest your life in what he paid for, wherever you land.

Invest your life in what he paid for with his own life's blood. He paid for the church. And so I think that's what really matters.

This is a good lead -in to two questions I had just at the end here. One, what is a clear -cut warning that you would give to young guys that are getting into this neo -post -millennialism,

Reconstruction theonomy? Like, you know, that kin. That would say, you know who

I'm talking about. A great warning, just, man, I love you guys, and I want to warn you.

Here it is. All of it.

I think all this whole thing's been a warning in a way. But I think that the attraction,

I'll deal with the attraction side of it. The attraction to this is that it gives you the idea that you can get what you want, have what you want, in sort of like a fleshly way.

You know what I'm saying? You could have money. You could have influence. You could have all these things.

And my warning is, like, compare that with what you know

Jesus said. He said it's easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man out of the kingdom of heaven.

And that's actually not a gate. Okay, that's a bunch of baloney. That camel gate doesn't exist.

It's never been found by archaeologists. No. He meant you need to be willing to give up everything.

He said you should be willing to die, you know, take up your cross. So, like, that's my warning.

Don't find yourself pursuing something that sounds so appealing to the flesh when Jesus was saying something very different about the kingdom.

So, yeah, that would be my... And then the second, this is a very controversial subject,

John. So if you decide you don't want the answer, I get it. Is the pursuit of personal piety a good thing?

Yeah, I want to pursue that. What does the scripture say? Be holy as I am holy.

So what are you going to do with that? Old Testament and New Testament. It gets quoted in the first Peter.

So, like, be holy as I am holy. So what are you going to say? You're going to say purity spirals or whatever.

What is a purity spiral with a God who is holy? You know what I mean?

Like, how does that even exist with a God who is holy? He's calling you to be holy. How can you be in a purity spiral is what they say.

Because you're so committed to holiness, you won't do certain things that these people will tell you to do.

I don't care about your assessment of my commitment to the word of God.

I'm not here to please you. I'm here to please God. And if that means that I alienate you or I alienate people, or they don't like what you're saying, well, too bad.

Because you have the word of God on this, that we are supposed to pursue holiness, without which no one will see the

Lord. So that has to be happening. Sanctification is a big part of the

Christian life. And if suddenly sanctification doesn't matter anymore, you've lost the plot.

You've lost an essential part of the gospel. That's justification, then sanctification.

And what in the world? I don't even believe we have to say this.

Why do we even have to say that? Why are we even talking about it? It's so patently obvious.

I don't know. It's sad to me. I don't see the irony of mocking someone for being a pietist.

I just don't get it. If somebody said on my gravestone, here lies the pietist, there's not a greater compliment.

To me, I mean, this guy pursued piety with all his life. Amen. That's the opposite of Amazigh.

He pursued the Lord. He served the Lord, but not with his whole heart. But this guy is a pietist, so he served the

Lord with his whole heart. Amen. Well, thank you, brothers.

Thank you, John, for coming on. I just kind of thought it was pretty fitting as we've kind of had these eschatology discussions.

Any final word that you want to say? You know, in the end, wherever you land on your eschatology,

I think that how we honor Christ, you know, how we...

I think there are... You know, you look through history, you see godly men who are on all sides of these things.

And you look at their lives, no matter whether it's dispensational, post -millennial, amillennial, historic, pre -millennial, all of them, the ones that you know about are the ones that honor

Christ. You know, who's the historic pre -millennial guy you know? Spurgeon.

Who's the dispensational guy you know? MacArthur. Put, like, 50 years in one church. Who's the post -mill guy you know?

You got Edwards. Jonathan Edwards, right? I mean, the amill guy that you know.

You know, who are the amill guys that you know? Jonathan Murdock. Jonathan Murdock, Randall Eastwood, right?

Joe Binky. Joe Binky. I'm just messing around to a degree here.

But, like, these are all godly men. By the way, the all -amill guy that we know is

John Owen. John Owen, okay. He came there eventually. Read the glory of Christ, you'll see it.

My favorite, probably the Apostle Paul, but anyways, go ahead. Who wrote

Hebrews? Who wrote Hebrews? Uh -oh. Now it's a whole different discussion.

You gotta have somebody else on for that one. Yeah, godliness with contentment is great, gang.

So, there it is. Jonathan, you got anything final thoughts you want to say?

Every time I have you on, Jonathan, it's a long podcast. Jon, you're not far from defining the kingdom rightly, right?

Joking. I'm joking. I rejoice in what the

Lord is doing in your life. You know, in God's providence, it was probably some of this neo -post -millennialism that really pushed you.

And so, in a sense, I'm thankful in that sense. But it's a blessing to see.

Well, thank you guys for joining us on this week of The Real Church podcast. I have no idea what's planned for next week, but I hope you'll tune in.

If you really believe the church is the building, the church is the house, the church is what

God's doing. This is His work. If we really believe what Ephesians says, we are the poemas, the masterpiece of God.