MSL: April 11, 2024

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The following program is recorded content created by the Truth Network. It's Matt Slick Live.

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Matt is the founder and president of the Christian Apologetics Research Ministry found online at karm .org.

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When you have questions about Bible doctrines, turn to Matt Slick Live for answers. Taking your calls and responding to your questions at 877 -207 -2276.

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Here's Matt Slick. Everybody, welcome to the show. It's me, Matt Slick, and you're listening to Matt Slick Live.

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And if you want, you give me a call on this wonderful, it's the April 11th, 2024 for the podcasters trying to let everybody know that, oh,

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I didn't do the rumble thing. The rumble stream didn't work right. I'll have to see if I can fix that in a little bit here. We had an issue.

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I just saw that, darn, ran out of time. Hey, if you wanna give me a call, all you have to do is dial 877 -207 -2276.

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You can give me a call, and well, then we can talk. It's real easy to do. All right, and also, let's see, if you wanna email me, you can do that at info at karm .org,

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info at karm .org, and just put in the subject line, radio comment, radio question, and we can get to it.

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All right, let's just jump back on the line here. Let's see, Bob from Nebraska. Bob, welcome, you're on the air.

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Hello, Matt. Yeah, good, good to talk to you again. When we talked yesterday, you said call me back tomorrow, and I had my days mixed up, and I didn't think

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I could, but I actually can, so I'd give you a call back. So we were talking about apostolic succession yesterday, and during that call,

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I think you said that if today's bishops and priests of the Catholic Church don't have these charisms that you see in Matthew 10, then it's proof of your claim that apostolic succession or apostolic authority is an invention of the

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Catholic Church. And so, in looking at Matthew 10,

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I see, I think there's five charisms basically laid out in Matthew 10. There's the driving out of impure spirits, healing disease and sickness, proclaiming the kingdom, raising the dead, and cleansing those with leprosy.

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And then there's some parallel sites in the other synoptic gospels. So Luke 9 and Mark 6 refer to the same,

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I think it's the same occasion. And then

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I think it's important to look at Luke 10 as well, where the 72 were sent, and those 72 were sent with the authority to heal the sick and drive out demons and proclaim the kingdom, which are the same three charisms we see at least in the synoptic gospels.

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And then Matthew is the one that has really five of them, raising the dead and healing the lepers.

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So Jesus gave authority to more than just the 12 apostles in scripture. He gave them, he gave 72 individuals apparently authority as well, very similar authority in some cases.

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And so I've got some questions for you. My first question was, were there 72 apostles or were the 72 not apostles because they were not given authority to raise the dead and cleanse lepers as in Matthew 10, do you think?

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Well, it wasn't 72, it was 70, just so you know. And he sent them out in pairs. Different.

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That's all right. Different, yeah. That's okay. 70 or 72. Oh, some manuscripts. Yeah, some manuscripts say 72, that's all right.

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No big deal. Yep, yep. So the harvest is plentiful, the lepers are few.

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Goes out, yeah, whatever said you enter, healed the sick, say to them, can you know God's come near you? Uh -huh.

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So they weren't the 12 obviously, but you guys are talking about apostolic authority.

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So it wouldn't be the 70 authority succession to be apostolic. So when

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Jesus and Matthew 10. 12 apostles at that time. Right, Jesus and Matthew 10 talked about the apostles, that's the authority you're talking about and your church doesn't have it.

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So, I mean, I guess that leads to another question though. Where in scripture does it say that the 72 were not apostles?

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Because it lists the apostles in Matthew 10. It lists them by name.

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Yes, for Simon, who is Peter, Andrew, his brother, James, the son of Zebedee, John, his brother,

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Philip, Bartholomew, Thomas, Matthew, the tax collector, James, the son of Alphaeus of Thaddaeus, Simon the

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Zealot, and Judas Iscariot is the one who betrayed him. Those are the ones listed, yep. Those are the ones listed, but does it say that the apostles have to be listed anywhere in scripture?

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No, it also doesn't say they have to wear green underwear either. That's true, that's a good point. So, okay, we don't argue from what it doesn't say, we argue from what it does say.

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And so it says the names of the 12, because here's Jesus summoned his 12 disciples, verse one, gave them authority.

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So the 12 disciples that had the authority are listed right there. If you guys have so -called apostolic authority, then it has to come out of Matthew 10, and you guys don't do that.

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Your church is a false church. So I see two differences between the 70 or the 72 and the 12, and so there's,

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I guess prior to this call, I saw two differences, now I see three. So in Matthew, there was a reference to raising the dead and cleaning those with leprosy.

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And when he sends out the 70 or 72, those two aren't listed, it's the other three that are listed. And then now we see that they're named in Matthew 10, but the people in the 70 or 72 in Luke 10 are not named.

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So those are differences. And so even though scripture doesn't say that the 72 were not apostles, it's reasonable to draw from scripture that they were not apostles.

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They were just followers. And since we know that Matthew 10 tells us that he specifically gave the authority to those specific individuals, we have them by name.

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They're the 12, yeah. But we both agree that Matthias and Paul were later made apostles after Christ's resurrection, right?

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Yes. Okay, so I guess I wanna look at another verse and that would be the verse to discuss where St.

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Paul cleansed a leper. Okay, yeah.

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And is there such a verse anywhere in scripture? No, well, it says he healed on command at Lystra.

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A man was sitting who had no strength in his feet and he goes on and on. It says, stand upright on your feet.

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And he leapt and began to walk. So it demonstrates that he had the ability to do it on command. That doesn't list everything he did.

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He had the ability to heal people, but in Matthew 10, it says that he sent the 12 out with the ability to cleanse those with leprosy.

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But Paul was not ever recorded in scripture as ever having cleansed anyone from leprosy.

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So that might disqualify him under your terms of the ability to be an apostle.

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No, no, no. No, no, no. I'll say it again. Matthew 10 is where it speaks of the apostles.

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Those apostles, right? Now we know that Paul was called specifically by Jesus as an apostle.

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That's right. And who's the one who laid hands on him? It was

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Ananias. I don't know. I mean, I suppose Ananias healed him. So what's really, see, the charismatic gifts are for the church as a whole.

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So if you go to Matthew, excuse me, 1 Corinthians 12, 1 Corinthians 14, Romans chapter 12, you'll see that in those chapters that there are charismatic gifts given to the church.

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There's non -charismatic gifts given to the church. Non -charismatic is helps and administrations and teaching, but charismatic gifts are operated by the power of the

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Holy Spirit. So if you have, if your church, which I absolutely 100 % deny is a true church, if your church has apostolic authority, then let's see it exercise apostolic authority.

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But you've kind of set this Matthew 10 out as your litmus test. And by that litmus test, it would exclude at least one, if not two of the people that you and I both agree were apostles, that'd be

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Matthias and Paul. Well, they said in Acts chapter one, what you brought up yesterday was that in order for them to be an apostle under that condition, they had to have certain conditions met.

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Matthias met it. We don't have any record of what he did miraculously or not.

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We just don't have that. We do have Paul being called by the Lord Jesus himself specifically.

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And he says he saw the risen Lord in 1 Corinthians 9 .1. And so it's consistent with Acts one that the criteria for being an apostle is at least having encountered the

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Lord Jesus, that kind of an apostle. Now, I grant that people today, that's not gonna happen, normally speaking.

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But if they're gonna say that they're gonna have apostolic authority, then they should be able to exercise what we see the apostle were able to do.

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And I guess that is probably where you and I, and actually where you and the church differ on what the church teaches about apostolic succession and apostolic authority.

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But I just, I wanted to start, and we'll get to that. I wanted to start out with the fact that your litmus test of Matthew 10 says

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Paul can't be an apostle. So your analysis, it's flawed from the get -go because Paul was not with them from the beginning.

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And that's what Acts one says. And Paul never is known to have cleansed anybody from leprosy, which is one of the five criteria in Matthew 10 that you have.

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So just technicalities there. I don't need to get hung up on that. But I looked at 1

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Corinthians. Go ahead. Well, hold on, hold on, hold on. Now it's time for me to respond. The Bible says all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

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That means every individual, right? No, it doesn't. Jesus never sinned.

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No, good point. So by your criteria, you just called Jesus a sinner. Look, you have to take the whole of Scripture.

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That's the point I'm trying to make. The whole of Scripture is in Acts chapter one and in Matthew chapter 10, the requirements of being that kind of apostle, those 12.

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Paul was called special. It doesn't mean that he can't be an apostle because we know

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Jesus called him specifically. And he said he saw the risen Lord. So we know that there's an office that Paul the apostle held.

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But if you want apostolic authority and you're gonna say it comes from the apostles, then include

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Paul with it and include the 12 in Matthew chapter 10. But Paul was able on command to heal, as was

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Peter. And he raised the dead. Peter raised the dead on command. He healed on command, just like Jesus did.

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The Bible does not have to list every single miracle they did. We already know they had the authority and what the

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Bible is doing is listing some of the aspects of the authority that's manifested. Let's see it in your so -called apostolate from your so -called true church.

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Well, and that kind of gets to the point I'm making at this point of the discussion is that by your interpretation of scripture, you say these certain characteristics need to be present in the

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Episcopate today. But even your interpretation of scripture is showing itself to be flawed because that would exclude both

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Paul and probably Matthias. All right, but I don't need to get hung up on that.

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I already answered you on both. I already answered you on both. And you refuse.

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I don't think you understand where your flaw is. So that's why I've kind of repeated it a few times, but that's okay. Maybe you don't understand the answer because you're in the

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Roman Catholic church, because you're loyal to the church. You're not loyal to, I don't believe you're loyal to Jesus.

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I believe you're loyal to the church above Christ. I'm okay with that. I'm okay with that. So wait, hold on, hold on, hold on.

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And it's certainly possible that you're biased and that you're committing idolatry. Absolutely.

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Yeah, that's right. Okay, I appreciate that. I could be biased. I could be a little bit forgiving of some issues that don't come very easily.

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But we both live under that same thing. So I always look at this confirmation bias claim that people try to cast on others.

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And I'm like, what makes you so superhuman and impenetrable to that? Yeah, we all do it.

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We all do it, yeah. So it's possible that you're suffering from that. Oh no, yeah, it's possible, but I'm absolutely convinced, this is my opinion, that all who believe in official

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Roman Catholic theology when they die are going to eternal damnation because I believe the

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Roman Catholic church teaches a false gospel and promotes idolatry. I do, well, there's a break.

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Well, we can talk about it when we get back. Hold on, okay, because we've got a break. Okay, bad timing. We can talk about the gospel and we can talk about their idolatry, too.

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Hey, we'll be right back, folks. After these messages, hopefully it'll be a good conversation continuing. We'll be right back.

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It's Matt Slick Live! Taking your calls at 877 -207 -2276.

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Here's Matt Slick. All right, everybody, welcome back to the show. Let's get back on with Bob from Nebraska.

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Bob, welcome here on the air. Yeah, thanks, Matt. So, hey, earlier in our conversation, you said something

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I thought was interesting. You asked who laid hands on Paul. Am I missing something there?

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Is that something you think is significant? What does Ananias says when he laid hands on him and who wasn't an ordained minister or anything were laid hands on him to receive his sight?

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Just a small point. Oh, yeah, yeah. Well, but the laying on of hands is a big part of the handing down of the apostolic succession, we believe, in the church.

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But Ananias wasn't the one that made Paul an apostle. He was healing him, maybe baptizing him, maybe bringing him into the church.

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And you don't need an apostle or a bishop to do that. So a priest can do that.

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And so probably Ananias was probably considered one of the elders, I would think, in that area.

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So he would have had the authority to bring people into the church, baptize them. But yeah, so I don't know.

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I just wondered why you brought that up. Yeah, just a small point. So here's the thing. I asked you a question yesterday.

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You couldn't answer it. Okay, okay. Is it on point? Yeah, well, we're talking about the validity of the

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Roman Catholic Church, right? Not really, no. We're talking about specifically apostolic succession and apostolic authority.

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And I've only gotten through just a fraction of the scriptures and things that support that.

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Kind of paint the picture for you to understand just where we're coming from and why we're, why as Catholics we say that.

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I know, I understand. Let me see if I can paint the picture for you. You guys believe that the apostles themselves were the ones who were granted specific authority by the

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Lord Jesus Christ, and that the apostles themselves, and Peter was the supreme apostle who was ultimately the first pope.

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And so what you teach is that their successors that they chose and laid hands upon, they had that authority passed down to them.

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You go to John 20, 23 and other verses. They said, you've forgiven and been forgiven and lay hands on Timothy and all this stuff.

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And this goes down through the centuries and that your church, whether or not someone holding the office is good or bad is irrelevant because it's the office that is the issue, not the man in it.

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And so that you could have a bad person in the office, but the office is still there. And by the authority that had been granted to the people today through the, so to speak, true church, the apostolic authority is resting inside or on the

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Catholic church. And that therefore the priests who have that touch of authority can administer the sacraments, et cetera, et cetera, forgive sins, do all that stuff, right?

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Kind of, yeah. I mean, that's not a bad. It is it. Well, you varied a little bit because the handing down is to the bishops and the bishops give the priests a certain authority within their diocese.

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Right, their hands laid on them. Yeah, right. It's all laying on of hands, right.

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I got it. Okay. And the authority that's given to them is not necessarily charisms because in first Corinthians 12, like seven through 11, we see

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St. Paul is kind of laying out charisms there. He lays out, I think nine in that part of scripture.

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And he doesn't include things like driving out demons, raising the dead, proclaiming the kingdom, the healing lepers that we see in Matthew 10.

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So there's more than what he says there. Although I think you can say, well, some of these things that he's laying out in first Corinthians 12, you know, if you read them and say, well,

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I think a message of wisdom or knowledge, you know, or prophecy, those things could be teaching and preaching, you know, because those things are related.

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No, it's not, but I get it, I get to say that. Giving of knowledge. Okay, all right.

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So are your priests speaking in tongues and interpreting tongues and giving words of knowledge, words of wisdom?

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Are they doing these things? Now, see, the thing is those things were given to the church as a whole, as a whole.

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Paul in first Corinthians 12, you know, he says that these things were given to some, but not all.

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So one is given to one, but not the other. To one there is given the spirit of a message of wisdom.

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To another, there's a message of knowledge by means of the same spirit. So he's saying, you know, everybody, you know, every

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Christian is going to have certain gifts, but not all the gifts. We're gonna go over and over the same thing.

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Yeah, the priest might have the gift of distinguishing between spirits, but not, you know, interpretation of tongues and same with the livers.

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So let's test, let's test what your church says. Let's test to see if it's legit.

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Okay. Well, about apostolic succession. About its authority to preach and teach the truth.

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Let's test it. Well, I mean. Let's test it. That seems to be getting a little bit off base because we have a definition of what, you know.

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Look, look, I'm getting tired. No, you don't understand. I'm getting tired of the same topic. We're going circles around it. I'm basically done with it.

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Okay. Well, I haven't finished it yet though because there's so much more. That's my radio show. Okay, this is my radio show.

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It is. It is. And so here's the thing. Look, I want to go on to show. That you can interrogate me about anything and everything you want to interrogate me about.

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Of course it doesn't. You can, you don't have to listen, but I want to go in and test to see if your church is preaching the true gospel.

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Isn't that critical? Well. It has the authority, right? So is it preaching the true gospel? Yes. It is?

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Okay. So let's test it. And one thing that you said in your definition of apostolic secession, that brings that up.

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You said that it doesn't matter, you know, the apostolic secession depends on the office, not necessarily whether the person in that office is good or bad.

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There's a slight distinction there that I think is important. It is the seal of ordination that matters, not necessarily the office, right?

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And so by the sacrament of ordination, there is a certain indelible seal placed on the person.

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So just like in baptism, it's the same concept. I gotcha. That's what makes that difference.

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So just a little misspeak there, but I just wanted to clarify that since I remembered it. So let's get on to it, to where the rubber meets the road.

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So if you're to die right now, where would you go, heaven or hell? I would say probably right now it'd be purgatory.

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Okay. So do you have to do good works to keep yourself right with God?

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Isn't that true? Well, I mean, I suppose you could interpret it that way if you didn't understand what the

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Catholic Church actually teaches about sanctification and the life of faith.

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Well, it does say in paragraph 2068 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, it says that you attain salvation through faith, baptism, and the observance of the commandments.

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So observing the commandments is necessary for you to attain salvation, along with your faith and your baptism, right?

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Yes, because that's what Christ taught. No, it's not. And so in paragraph 2036, it says that keeping the precepts of the natural law are necessary for salvation.

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And then paragraph 2070, it says the precepts of the natural law reflected the 10 commandments. So keeping the 10 commandments then is necessary for salvation, right?

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That is, yeah, I mean, that's what the Council of Trent said. Yeah, that's what the Council of Trent said.

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Yep. Okay, so what I would like to do is read from the Bible, what the

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Bible teaches. Well, you did this, I think, last week. We went through this same stuff last week. Good. And you're probably gonna turn to verses which refer to the law.

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Let's go to, let's go, let's go. You know, the Christians interpret New Testament references to the law.

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Bob, Bob, Bob, hold on, man, hold on, hold on. Let's see what God's word says before you start interpreting it.

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Hey, folks, we'll be right back after these messages, please. Stay tuned. It's Matt Slick Live!

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Taking your calls at 877 -207 -2276. Here's Matt Slick.

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All right, welcome back to the show. Let's get back on with Bob. If you're still there, are you still there? I am,

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Matt. Okay. So the Roman Catholic Church says you have to do good works to be saved, right?

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No, you cannot be saved by good works. You have to have grace received through baptism first.

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It says you have to do good works to be saved, not just good works. But it believes in faith and baptism and you have to do good works, keep commandments, right?

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Well, St. James says, you know, show me faith who's not works and I'll show you a faith that's dead, right?

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Yeah, because true faith comes from God. In Philippians 1 .29, God grants that we have faith.

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And Jesus says in John 6 .29 that the faith that God grants to us is in Him. So let me ask you, is the faith that God grants to us that's in Christ, is that true faith?

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Well, I suppose, yeah. I think that's probably a fair statement. And since the Bible says we're justified by faith, obviously it's the faith that God grants to us.

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So is the faith that God grants to us that's in Christ, is it sufficient to justify us when we have faith? Well, James says where man is justified by works and not faith alone though, right?

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James 2 .14. I asked you a question. You just ignored the question and you tried to contradict scripture.

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Now look, I asked you, the faith that God grants us, that's Philippians 1 .29 to you, has been granted, aorist passive indicative.

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It's granted to you to believe. Jesus says, this is the work of God that you believe on him whom he has sent,

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John 6 .29. Romans 5 .1 says, having therefore been justified by faith.

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Therefore, the question I have is, according to the scriptures, are we justified by faith, the faith that God grants us?

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Well, you just kind of restated it and you said, according to the scriptures, are we justified by faith?

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And I know of a scripture that says we are justified by works and not faith alone. So maybe we're both right.

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We're just looking at different verses, right? No, you are looking at James incorrectly.

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You're making a mistake. Because you're giving us your private interpretation. You're giving us what the

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Roman Catholic Church tells you it means. Let's look at James and we'll show you that James is not talking about what you think it is.

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Because he starts off in verse two. What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works, can that faith save him?

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That faith is faith that's dead. It's nothing. Is that the faith that God grants to us?

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Would that be the faith God grants to us? Is it? Well, it's the faith that the person thinks that maybe

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God has granted to them, right? I didn't ask if it was. But it's, you know, there's no evidence of the faith because there's no good coming from it, right?

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Bob, you didn't answer my question. Is that the kind of faith that God grants to us? That's the question.

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Well, I don't know. I mean, what do you think? No, it's not. The faith that God grants to us is real.

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It's in Christ Jesus. It's true. It's not faith. That's fake. How do you know that?

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Because it comes from God. And how do you know that the faith? It comes from God. Circular reasoning,

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Matt. How do you know that it's come from God? When God says, what

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Paul says in Philippians 1 through 9, to you it has been granted to believe. That God who's doing the granting that we have faith.

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Jesus says, this is the work of God that you believe on him whom he has sent.

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That's John 6, 29. That's the faith we're talking about. The faith that comes from God that is real.

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Whoever it's given to, that's not the issue. The faith that God grants to somebody is that real faith because it's in Christ and it comes from God.

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Is that real faith or not? The faith that God grants is real faith.

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And the way that you know that God has granted it is by the fruit that you see from that faith.

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There you go. There you go. That's what James is talking about. That's what James is talking about. And he says, if we don't see any fruit from what you're doing, if we don't see any evidence of that faith through the way that you're living your life, your faith's dead.

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That's what the Catholic Church teaches. And so that's what James 2 is saying. So notice what James 2, 18 says.

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But someone may well say, you have faith, I have works. Show me your faith. Without the works,

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I will show you my faith by my works. This is not talking about between God and man, but between people.

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You show me your faith, I'll show you mine. That's what he's talking about, right? Right? That's what, right there.

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And in verse 19, it says, do you believe, excuse me, you believe that God is one? You do well.

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The demons also believe. Now that the kind of faith that James is ridiculing, obviously is not the faith that comes from God.

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It's the faith that's fake. It's from ourselves or from demonic sources. We didn't want to call it, but it certainly is not from God.

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I don't know if it's necessarily that, because it could be just somebody's intellectual assent that, you know,

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I believe that God exists. That's what the demons have. They're aware of God's existence. They don't deny

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God. And a human being can do the same thing. Yeah. A human being can do the same thing.

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I just said that. Self -generated or it's demonic. It's not the faith that comes from God because the faith that God grants to us is real.

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It's true. Well, but - It's in Christ. But the intellectual recognition of God's existence as real is just as real as the grace that you get from the faith in God.

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We're talking about faith right now. The faith that God grants to us comes along with regeneration and we're going to be doing good works.

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That's how I know someone is a Christian or not. They can say one thing, but let's see it. That's what

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James is talking about. That's why he says, he says verse 23, and Abraham believed

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God and was credited him as righteousness. What was credited to Abraham as righteousness according to James 2 .23?

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What was credited as righteousness? Yeah. According to that, it would be the faith, yeah.

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The faith, great. Then Abraham acted on - Can you hold on, hold on.

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It says, and then he says, you see the man is justified by works, not by faith alone. Justified before who?

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Before who? Before God or before man? Yeah, it'd be before God. No, it's not because Romans, excuse me, because James 2 .18

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says you show me your faith and I'll show you mine. He's talking about a false faith. Let's see what you've got.

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That's how you know he's justified by works, not by faith alone, not by the mere profession of it.

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Because the Bible clearly tells us in James 2 .23, Abraham believed God and it was credited as righteousness because that faith is granted to him by God because true faith comes from God.

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It was given to Abraham and Abraham was justified by the faith that he had because it comes from God.

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The works that he does, he does because he's a believer and he's a believer in a true living God and he will then go out and do those works, but it's not those works that get him justified as paragraph 20 .68

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says, that you attain salvation through faith, baptism and the observance of the commandments.

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But Abraham, it just says, and he believed God and it was credited in his righteousness.

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It doesn't say and his works. This is why the Roman Catholic Church is teaching a false gospel. It's not

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Christian. The Roman Catholic Church is not Christian. It's apostate.

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I think you're misinterpreting what the catechism says. And so you're looking at chapter 20 .68.

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20 .68. Okay, 20 .68. It doesn't say that you have to do good works to be saved.

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It says, I'm looking at it right now. Okay, online. S -B -S -C -B,

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I'll put the thing in the chat for people who wanna look at it. You can type in, it's a - Charles Borromeo.

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Yeah, cool. That's a pretty popular one, yeah. Okay, that's what I'm using. So it says the Council of Trent teaches that the 10 commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them.

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So once justified, you're still bound to live by the moral law of Christ, which is the 10 commandments.

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Keep going, keep reading. Yeah. The Second Vatican Council confirms the bishops, successors of apostles receive from the

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Lord the mission of teaching all peoples and preaching the gospel to every creature so that all men may attain salvation through faith, baptism, and the observance of the commandments.

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So you're going to obtain it through faith and baptism and the observance of the commandments because the commandments are moral law, which are written on our heart with the grace of Christian baptism.

32:30

Okay, so it's teaching then that you have to keep the 10 commandments among other things to be saved, right?

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Are you keeping the 10 commandments? Yeah, because if you're violating the 10 commandments, you lose your salvation.

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Okay, so are you keeping the 10 commandments? The 10 commandments are extremely serious.

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So yes, I'm currently keeping all 10 commandments, but I still wouldn't go to heaven today if I died,

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I don't think, because I'm sure I've got plenty of venial sin on my soul. So nothing impure enters heaven.

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So would you agree with me that Jesus is the standard of keeping the law? Not you, not me, right?

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Yeah, I would say, yeah, we've got to follow Jesus. Right, now are you keeping the commandments on the same level as Jesus?

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No, Jesus in his divine nature was far beyond any human.

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So no, so you go to confession and you confess that you break any of the 10 commandments, you lust, you lie, you covet, you're prideful, whatever it might be, right?

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Then you're not keeping the 10 commandments. Hold on a sec, we've got a break coming up. I'm gonna show you something why you're in a lot of trouble, okay, hold on.

33:47

Hey folks, we'll be right back after these messages. We'll be talking with the Roman Catholic, Bob. I enjoy talking to him, he's a very nice guy.

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We'll be right back after these messages. Please stay tuned. It's Matt Slick Live!

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Taking your calls at 877 -207 -2276. Here's Matt Slick.

34:17

All right, everybody, welcome back to the show. We're in an impromptu debate here. I like this, this is fun. Are you still there, Bob? I am,

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Matt. Yeah, it is kind of fun. So it's good to talk to you. Yeah, you too. But I can't remember where we were.

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I do. So you're not keeping the 10 commandments because you have to go confess them and the standard of keeping the commandments is

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Jesus. You're not meeting that standard, okay. But here's the thing, what Jesus says.

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John 20, 21 through 23, 21, 19 through 23, specifically granted that authority to the apostles.

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And again, because it wasn't only the authority to forgive sins, it was the authority to retain sins.

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Okay, hold on. So the point I'm trying to make with you. No, I don't struggle with it.

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I know what it says, it's not what you say. So Matthew 9, 29. No, you do.

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Matthew 9, 29, Jesus says, it shall be done to you according to your faith.

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When Jesus gave a parable in Luke 19 about the usage of money, what he did there was he told about the king, you know, gave money to people, comes back and the people, one guy just put buried in the ground.

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He goes, don't you know, I'm an exacting person. He says, he said, by your own words, I will judge you.

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This is a principle that Jesus inserted into that parable. In Luke 18, the rich young ruler says, good teacher.

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What shall I do to inherit internal life? Jesus answers him according to what he wants. See, you're gonna be judged by your own standard.

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Your standard is that you obtain salvation through faith, baptism, and your ability to observe the commandments.

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So I have begun to study. Let's go back to, yeah. I've begun to study. Let's go back to your reference to Matthew 9, 28.

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If you wanna read things in context, right? Or actually, I think you said Matthew 9, 29, right?

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He said, let it be done to you according to your faith. Right? But he was doing that in the context of healing people.

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Yes, that's right. Who could not be healed unless they believed in him. Yep. And so, the context certainly is.

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Jesus was capable of healing them. And they had a certain level of faith, appreciation and knowledge of God.

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And Jesus says, I would do this according to you, what you're asking, according to the level of your faith.

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And so, he healed it. It would apply to all kinds of stuff. Yeah. And he couldn't heal people back in Nazareth because they didn't believe in him.

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He hardly worked any miracles in Nazareth when he was there. Yeah, I'm familiar with that. When he returned there during his public ministry.

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So, that's what that's talking about. It's not talking about eternal salvation. I'm gonna focus.

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The principle is that you're judged by your faith, your understanding, your knowledge, what you ask of God.

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And he says this in Luke 18, in the parable, when the exacting master says,

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I'm gonna judge you by your own words. By your own words, I will judge you. That's what he says.

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And what's the word there? Luke 19, 22. Luke 18, what? Luke 19, 22.

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You should study that parable. We don't have time to go through all of it right now. And then in Luke 18, the rich man comes up and says, what do

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I have to do to eternal life? You gotta understand something. We're made in the image of God and we are going to relate to God.

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If you think you're gonna go to God and say, look, I obtained my salvation this way. My faith, my baptism, and my keeping commandments.

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That means you're under the law. And I'm actually working on a study. Yes, it does.

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I'm working on a study where Jesus and Paul and the rest of them talk. Would you let me finish

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Paul, man? Come on. Sure. Where Paul, in the New Testament, talks about those who add a little bit of works.

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He automatically says you're under the law. You're seeking to be justified by law, by one thing. One thing you do, he says you're under the law.

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Let's turn to that and look at it. So I'm just trying to tell you that you, well, you can go to Galatians 5 for that.

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They wanna be circumcised. I'm not done with the whole study. I said I'm working on a study that shows that. But here's the thing.

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You wanna be justified. That's where the Judaizers were coming in and saying that if you want to be a

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Christian and you're a Gentile, first you have to be circumcised and then become a Christian.

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And Paul's telling them, no, that's not the case. No, but you say you have to be baptized.

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Look, you're adding a ceremony to salvation. Paul says that in Colossians 2, 11 and 12, he says you've been circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, having been buried with him in baptism.

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Paul relates circumcision and baptism. So the baptism is the circumcision without hands. Well, he relates circumcision and baptism.

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Both are ceremonies. Both are ordinances and are instituted by God.

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So what you're saying is that your salvation is dependent in part on your ceremony that you undergo in order to be made right with God.

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Not only in the baptism ceremony, but also in your continued maintaining your position with God by your keeping the commandments.

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So here's the question. Are you keeping yourself right with the infant holy

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God by your keeping the commandments? There's two ways to look at that.

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If you're keeping the commandments, yes. And if you're breaking the commandments, no. So if you're breaking the commandments, and this is where you get hung up because you believe that you can't lose your salvation, which is completely contrary to scripture.

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So we've got multiple verses. Look, I know all that stuff, we're on a different topic.

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Are you keeping yourself right with the infinitely holy God by your goodness, by you keeping the commandments?

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That's the question. We've got thousands and thousands of people listening right now. Are you keeping yourself right?

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I know that this is your radio show, Matt. If you get to vary a little bit from, and you're varying a lot from the points that we're talking about, then

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I can take what you say and say, well, you're saying you can't lose your salvation and that's why you believe what you believe.

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But I know a scripture like Romans 11, 22, 1 Corinthians 9, 27, 1

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Corinthians 10, 12, that all talk about the fact that you can lose your salvation. No, they don't.

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So you can't simply say, well, you can't say that because I don't wanna talk about that. No, no, no, no, no. No, it's not that I don't wanna talk about it.

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I'm suggesting you call me back another day, we'll talk about it. I'll go through why you can't lose your salvation, why God doesn't make mistakes.

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But I debate this a lot. I know the topics well. I could take your position and argue it just as well. I know it well, okay.

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But the thing I'm trying to get you to face - I'd probably win the debate then if you argue my position, but yeah.

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No, because I know the whole topic. Baptism is necessary for salvation. So you're saying you just wanna talk about the 10 commandments, but the church teaches baptism is necessary.

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Bob, I'm asking you a question. Do you, by your goodness in keeping the commandments, do you in your effort, your goodness, keeping the commandments, do you keep yourself in right standing with the infinitely holy

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God of the universe? Do you? Only by the grace of God, Matt. Only by the grace of God.

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So the answer is yes. And that's what the Catholic church teaches. I know. And that's the heresy and the demonic doctrine that it is.

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So you are saying you keep yourself right with God by how good you are.

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Man, pat yourself on the back. Yes, you just said it. You just said it.

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And if I turn my back on God with sin, then

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I lose all of that grace. I give it back. I give it away. And so that's why

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Christ came to the upper room on the first Easter Sunday. And he said, you know, as the father has sent me, so I send you, which is a really important phrase,

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Matt. You shouldn't overlook that. Focus, focus, focus. I want you to understand. I want people to understand what you're teaching.

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You keep yourself right in good standing with God by how good you are. That's what you're saying.

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No, I'm totally incapable of doing that. Totally incapable. Then why does the catechism say you attain salvation through faith, baptism, and the observers of the commandments?

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And I know that grace is a substance or like a substance. In paragraph 1999, it's infused into the soul.

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And through venial sins, you lose part of it. So you have to go back to the church, which is in control of the sacraments, in control of the merit of grace, the treasury of grace, and that by the sacramental procedures, you get grace re -infused into your soul.

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So the Catholic church is in charge of your salvation. And you have to keep the commandments in order to be saved.

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You told me that. You said you have to keep them to be saved. And you're not keeping them because you go to confession and you confess when you mess up.

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And I'm not accusing you of being a big sinner. I mean, hey, you're just like me. You're not perfect. So you're not keeping them on the level of Jesus.

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You are not keeping the level of Jesus. He's the standard, not the humanist philosophy of the

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Roman Catholic church, that if you're sincere and you're good enough. A lot of Protestant churches teach that heresy.

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Matt, you believe that you can break the commandments and you're still saved. I break them all the time.

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I'm not perfect. But look, you gotta understand something. With faith comes regeneration. With a commandment, can you, yeah.

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No, you don't understand. With a commandment, could you. You don't understand. You don't understand. Let me explain. This is. You don't understand.

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I got a question for you. Just let me ask you this question. Is there a commandment that you could break today and not be saved because of that?

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No, I can't lose my salvation. That's another topic. I'm gonna try to tell you.

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You could go over to your neighbor's house tonight and you could just take everything he owns and say, this is mine.

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No. And you would go to bed tonight thinking, what good thing I'm saved.

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Bob. Is that possible? Bob, you're not listening. You don't understand the biblical doctrine of salvation.

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We don't teach that. Well, I'm giving you a scenario. Bob, I'm trying to explain it to you. It's totally illogical for you to think you're still saved if you do that.

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Bob, I'm trying to explain it to you, but you don't wanna hear it. The Catholics in the Eastern Orthodox do the same thing.

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They ask questions like this. That's not our position. You don't understand our position. Let me explain what it is.

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Well, I do. Because what you'll say is you weren't saved if you're doing something like that. Let me explain it to you.

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And stop interrupting so much. You don't want me to explain it. I'm gonna do it. Look. With faith comes regeneration.

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We're made new creatures. Second Corinthians 517. The Lord God is indwelling us.

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John 14, 23. We're born again. We have God in us.

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We then war against our sin, just like Paul said in Romans 7, 18 through 25.

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He says, the things I don't wanna do, I do. And the things I wanna do, I don't. It talks about his struggle.

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It's not meaning that Paul's losing his salvation every other minute because he fails here and keeps it there. That's not what's going on.

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I don't go to my neighbor and do something like that because I'm regenerate. Because along with my faith is the regenerative work of God in me.

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He lives in me. He convicts me. I live for Jesus. I don't go do that. When you guys ask the questions, what you're demonstrating is you don't understand that faith and regeneration come together.

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And with that, we wanna live for our Savior, Jesus Christ. When you ask the question that you do, you ask the question you do, it demonstrates that you're separating faith and regeneration, saying faith is all we teach and we don't have to do anything right or good.

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That's not what we're teaching. And that regeneration isn't part of it, which is not what we're teaching. And we can go out and sin all we want.

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That's not our position. You don't know our position. No, I don't think that's your position.

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But I think you have a question that is very troubling. It's not troubling. I'm not gonna go do it because I can't.

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I can't. You say we want to do what's right. You don't want to do those things.

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But like Paul, sometimes you do things that do separate from God. Did Paul lose his salvation? Did Paul, was

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Paul in and out of salvation? I don't know. Well, wait a minute. You said, you said if you do the bad things, you said to do the bad things and you lose your salvation.

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You're telling me that Paul, he did bad things. He's even saying it. You must've lost his salvation a whole bunch of times. Hopscotch, put the check board on the sidewalk, go out there and hop.

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And you better hope that when the clock stops, you're in the save square. Because if you're out by your own words, you're gonna be judged.

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You're gonna be lost. Hey, we're out of time, man, we're out of time. So we'll go to Hebrews six, we'll go to Hebrews nine.

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I know all these verses. I'd love it if you called back next week and we talk about it. May the Lord bless you all. We're out of time.

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It was a good conversation. God bless. We'll talk to you tomorrow. Another program powered by the