May 27, 2024 Show with Tobias Riemenschneider on “Open Theism: A Dangerous Heresy Examined”

Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Memorial Day on this

Monday, May 27, 2024. I trust those of you listening have had a blessed day of sharing fellowship and fun and feasting with your family, friends, and loved ones and neighbors.

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And also, we hope that you use this opportunity to share the gospel of Jesus Christ with those whom you know and love, with whom you are celebrating today, who do not know

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King of Kings and Lord of Lords to them. Before I introduce our guest today and our topic,

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So send me that email to chrisarnson at gmail .com and register for this wonderful event today.

But today we have the honor for the third time of having my guest

Tobias Riemenschneider return to the program. Tobias Riemenschneider is pastor of the

Evangelical Reform Baptist Church of Frankfurt, Germany, where he is conducting this program live right now from Germany.

He is the co -author of the Frankfurt Declaration of Christian and Civil Liberties.

He is a passionate anti -abortion activist and author of the book

Resisting Tyranny, a Christian Response to Government Overreach. Today we're going to be addressing

Open Theism, A Dangerous Heresy Examined. It's my honor and privilege to welcome you back for the third time to Iron Church on Zion Radio, Tobias Riemenschneider.

Thank you so much, brother, for having me on again. And why don't you, for the sake especially of those listeners who have not yet heard you on the show, tell our listeners about the

Evangelical Reform Baptist Church of Frankfurt, Germany. Yeah, so that's the church.

The planting of the church started 10 years ago in 2014. My now co -pastor,

Peter, came to Frankfurt to plant a Reform Baptist Church. The only one in Frankfurt.

And I met him the first, the very first Bible study he had in his living room.

I was there and I stayed because that was exactly what I was looking for.

Someone who really believed the Bible, preached the Bible as the word of God. So I stayed and about two and a half years later, the church was officially incorporated.

Peter and I both became pastors of the church. And yeah,

God has been good to us. We survived COVID and all the state measures. And we are growing and are blessed and are very grateful.

We are now about 160, 170 people each given Sunday. We started with 12, so I think that's a good development.

Praise God. And you said you're the only Reform Baptist Church in Frankfurt, Germany. How many

Reform Baptist churches in the entirety of Germany are there? Yeah, so a few years ago, it would have been very easy to say we have five or six in all of Germany.

Now the number is growing, also at least partially through our ministry. People are listening to us and some like what we do, and they also become

Reform Baptists. I would guess, but this is only a guess, that there are maybe now probably a dozen of Reform Baptist churches in all of Germany.

Still very small. Well, I urge anybody listening, if you live in or near Frankfurt, Germany, if you are going to be vacationing in or near Frankfurt, Germany, or if you have family, friends, and loved ones who live in or near Frankfurt, Germany, the website of the

Evangelical Reform Baptist Church of Frankfurt, where my guest is the pastor,

Tobias Riemenschneider, the website is erb -frankfurt -de, that's erb -frankfurt .de.

And hopefully, you will look that up and you will visit this congregation, if possible, and even join it if you live in that area, if you do not already have a biblically sound church home.

Also, if you could, since we've already addressed this on the program before, but at least in a summary form, tell our listeners about the

Frankfurt Declaration of Christian and Civil Liberties. Oh yeah, sure. So the

Frankfurt Declaration was a project that was started by a brother from London.

He assembled a few pastors from all over the world, including

Canada, certain countries from Europe, from Africa, and so on.

And his vision was to have a global declaration addressing, especially what was happening during COVID, when states, governments started to outlaw church services and so on and so forth.

And well, after some time, we split up a group consisting of three pastors, including myself.

We continued with the idea we had, how this declaration should look like. And we ended up actually finishing it.

And it's not just about COVID. It really tries to address basically all the main issues we are facing in our time.

So it is government overreach, but it's also secular humanism, it's transgenderism, and so on and so forth.

It's not a huge declaration. I think it consists of five articles. But I think we managed to really melt everything down to what's really important.

And we are very surprised and very grateful that God used our efforts.

And the declaration was signed by men like John MacArthur or James White or Wally Borkum and others.

So it was a success that we never had anticipated. But we are very grateful for that.

Well, praise God. And if anybody wants more details on the Frankfurt Declaration of Civil—of Christian and Civil Liberties, go to frankfurtdeclaration .com,

frankfurtdeclaration .com. I figure I might as well also announce the

October Iron Trapper's Iron Radio Free Pastors Luncheon. I've already mentioned the one that's coming up in just about a week with Dr.

Joel Beeky here in Pennsylvania on June 6th. But on October the 10th, which is a

Thursday, we have the honor and privilege for the first time of having Dr. Joe Boot as our keynote speaker at the full

Iron Trapper's Iron Radio Free Pastors Luncheon. And I mention that now because I know that Dr.

Boot is someone very highly esteemed by guest today, Tobias Riemenschneider.

And in fact, the month after he is speaking at my luncheon, he is speaking in Frankfurt, Germany.

Have anything that you'd like to say about this esteemed keynote speaker that I'm having,

Joe Boot? Yes, sure. So yes, I hold him in high esteem. And he is also a personal friend, someone who is dear to me.

And I'm also a fellow of the Astra Institute. So there are some connections there.

And he visited us last year already and for our conference in 2023.

And he will do so again in November, November 8th and 9th, 2024. He will be one of the keynote speakers.

Other keynote speakers will be Jeff Durbin and Luke Pearson, both from Apologia Church.

Wow. Yeah. And if anyone wants to hear what

I have to say, I will also try to say something. And the title of the conference is

Dragon Slayer. Wow. So we want to talk about Satan, the old dragon, and how he was already slain by Christ, the great dragon slayer, and how we now have to slay him in our private lives, in our hearts, in our homes, and also in our countries.

I'm assuming that there's going to be a German translator. Yes, everything will be translated into German and into English.

When I speak, I will speak in German, but there will be also translation into English. So everyone who understands either

German or English is invited to come. Yeah, I wonder if our mutual friend,

Dr. James White, would need a German translator. I wonder if he speaks

German fluently enough. I know he speaks it to some level, but I don't know if he's ever shared with you how fluent he is in German.

Well, I don't know. I think he would be fine with normal conversations. I'm not sure if there is something that has some

German theological terms and so on. I'm not sure how he knows all those terms, but he might.

I think I have to test him on that. Well, we are discussing a very important topic today because it is a theological heresy that, although it is currently not all that large as far as its influence, but it is growing, and it is known as open theism.

And by the way, if anybody listening wants to send in a question to Tobias Riemenschneider about this heresy, open theism, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, city and state, and country of residence.

Well, if you could give us a working definition of open theism and tell us about where its origins began, how old is this heresy?

They say there's nothing new under the sun. I don't know if this is something that is a reinvention of an older heresy, but tell us exactly what this heretical system of thought is.

Yeah, so open theism basically denies the omniscience of God, at least the classical definition of omniscience.

They would say, no, we believe in the omniscience of God. We just have another definition. They would say

God knows everything that can be known, that is knowable, if that's a word.

And they would say, well, so God knows everything that ever happened in the past.

He knows everything which is currently happening in the present, but he cannot know everything that will happen in the future because the future does not exist and therefore there's nothing that can be known.

And where the issue comes in is that they say, well,

God has given his creatures, men and angels, libertarian free will, and so he doesn't know how those creatures will make decisions.

He doesn't know what decisions man will actually make in the future because in the moment, in the future, in the very moment they make the decision, they are really completely free, so he can't know what exactly they will choose and so he can't know what the future will look like.

He knows all possible futures, but he doesn't know which of these futures will actually materialize.

I've heard that some of those professing to be open theists actually have called themselves consistent

Arminians. Is that true? Yeah, yes, absolutely. So maybe just one, of course, you know, we are now talking about an entire movement, so there are differences of opinion.

Yeah, so if someone says, well, I'm an open theist and that's not what I believe. Yes, so we are talking generally, right?

So yes, they say they are consistent Arminians and you can understand why they say that and I would probably even agree with them that they are consistent

Arminians because, you know, if you really say that creatures, let's stay with man, that man has libertarian free will, then actually probably

God can't know what decision they will make because if God knew infallible every decision a man will make in the future, how can this man then be free in the exact moment in the future when he actually makes this decision?

Because he can only make the decision that God has already foreknown. If he would make any other decision, then

God's foreknowledge would have been false and that's impossible. So there is actually in Arminianism where God knows what decision everyone will make.

There is actually no real libertarian free will because in the very situation in the future where I have to make my decision,

I can only decide for one thing because that's what God has already foreknown and infallible.

So I understand that there is an issue with the concept of libertarian free will. If God already knows it, how can

I make another decision? Am I really free in that moment in time? Probably not. And that's why they would say we are the consistent

Arminians. We really believe that there is total freedom and I can decide either or and God can't know because I'm really free in that moment.

Now, as I began to tell you in advance that I was going to ask you this, how old is this heresy?

Oh, yeah, yeah. So, I mean, this heresy has been around for some time, but it never really had any traction.

Yeah. So there were you can trace back people who said something like that in the past, but as a movement, it really developed recently, basically in the 1980s and especially in the 1990s.

I think it was 1994, the early 90s, when several open theists came together to publish a book on open theism.

And that was really when this really got some traction, which was on the display.

And actually many reacted to this. Well, James White, John Piper, John MacArthur, Doug Wilson.

So in the 90s and early 2000s, I guess, many actually talked about open theism, published books and articles on this.

So it is as a movement, it is a rather recent movement. And as you said, it is not dead, it is alive and well, alive and kicking.

Just a few years ago, I think two or three years ago, the first book on open theism from a

German speaking author was published. And so now this is also an issue here in Germany.

So, yeah, it is still something that we have to talk about. And that is far from being dead.

Yeah. And the folks that I have heard who have been a part of this movement are the late

Clark Pinnock, who at one time was considered a very sound and highly esteemed reformed theologian.

And he just really threw everything overboard. And Greg Boyd, who, interestingly enough, was a former oneness

Pentecostal who came out of that and was defending the Trinity and was even promoted back in the days when

Hank Hanegraaff was considered a sound evangelical Protestant. He is since apostatized into Eastern Orthodoxy.

And John Sanders and Dallas Willard are the names that I have heard.

Anybody else that you care to mention who our listeners should be warned about who are in the forefront of this?

Well, there have been a few others. One is Sandlin, I forgot his first name now.

Another was Bob Enyart, but he also died a few years ago, rather recently.

There are a few others, but the one you named are the most well -known one.

And in history that you are aware of, I'm talking about, you know, dating back centuries or even ancient history, have there been any professing

Christian theologians of note that denied that God knew all things that would occur in the future?

Not to my knowledge. So I know that this became an issue two or three hundred years ago.

So what I can say, I'm not completely sure with regard to the early church, but I think it pretty much became generally accepted with Augustine the latest.

So I'm not completely sure whether there was maybe someone before that who taught that, but it was never a position that had really any meaning, any importance in the church.

So if there was someone, I am not aware of it. Well, we're going to go to our first commercial break.

And if you'd like to join us once again, our email address is chrisorenson at gmail .com. Give us your first name, at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence.

If you live outside the USA, only remain anonymous. If your question involves a personal and private matter, let's say you are in a church that teaches this heresy and you are realizing that this is not biblical and you don't want to draw attention to your identity publicly right now.

Or perhaps you're even a pastor and your fellow elders are believing in this or what have you.

Those kinds of things we could understand. You'd want to remain anonymous. But if it's just a general question, please give us your first name, at least city and state and country of residence.

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So go to royaldiadem .com today and mention Iron Triple Zion Radio. We're now back with Tobias Riemenschneider, pastor of the

Evangelical Reformed Baptist Church of Frankfurt, Germany, and we are discussing open theism, a dangerous heresy examined.

And if you have a question of your own, send it to chrisarnsen at gmail .com, chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

Give us first name at least, city and state and country of residence. Now, Pastor Tobias, as you already mentioned, the adherents of open theism would claim that they believe in the omniscience of God because they say that he does know all things except those things that would defy the freedom of his creatures.

And that is why they refer to them, or at least some of them refer to themselves as consistent

Arminians, because the Arminian actually in practical terms functions as if the future is not known as to whether somebody is going to embrace or reject

Christ. And that final determiner is that person.

That sinner is the one that determines his eternal destiny, really, because it is he who is the final arbiter, the final one to throw the switch on or off, as it were, as to whether to embrace or reject

Christ. So they are just claiming that that is a consistent outflowing of Arminian theology.

And we, although we reject this open theism as absolute heresy, we see the logic in their statement that it is a natural result, a logical, consistent result of believing in an

Arminian understanding of the nature of man and man's ability to please

God by offering him his faith that saves before he is even regenerate. Am I making sense here?

Yes, absolutely. And so I was asked to write an article about open theism for a

German magazine. And I thought, well, do I really want to go so deep into open theism?

I mean, who believes that? Well, I found out there are some who do believe it. But what really intrigued me was exactly that consistency there.

So this is also, to some extent at least, a discussion between this old discussion between Calvinism and Arminianism.

Of course, Arminians are not open theists, even though, to quote

James White, some of them might really want to be open theists, because that would be consistent.

Yeah. But yeah, but it has something it has. Yeah, it plays into that as well.

This discussion between Calvinism and Arminianism. Oh, one of the things that I was going to ask you when

I just gave that opening to the discussion when we came back from the break is that how serious, in your opinion, is this heresy?

Because, as we've already stated, it's not as if open theists believe

God does not know anything that will occur in the future.

It's only those specific things that involve the free choices of his creatures.

And can we rightly consider it serious enough to be damnable heresy?

Yes, I would say so, which does not mean that everyone who holds to it is necessarily damned, because I believe there is a difference between those who maybe just don't really understand it, have been taught it, but maybe are still saved.

But if you really buy into this, yes, I believe it is a damnable heresy for several reasons.

One is this really concerns the being of God. And, you know,

God takes this very seriously. So, his omniscience God takes very seriously.

There is this passage in Isaiah, which actually covers several chapters, beginning,

I think, in Isaiah 40 or 41 and stretching to Isaiah 46.

It is basically the judgment on the false gods. And it is precisely

God's omniscience that God himself uses here to distinguish himself from all false gods.

Let me just quote this. So, it is in Isaiah 41 and I am quoting verses 21 to 23.

So, here God speaks. Set forth your case, says the Lord. Bring your proofs, says the

King of Jacob. Let them bring them and tell us what is to happen. Tell us the form of things, what they are, that we may consider them, that we may know the outcome, or declare us the things to come.

Tell us what is to come hereafter, that we may know that you are gods.

So, this is God speaking with a challenge to all those false gods and telling, okay, you want to prove that you are gods?

Okay, tell us the future. Maybe tell us also the past and why it happened, but also tell us the future.

Then we will believe that you are gods. So, God himself says this is really important.

This distinguishes me, the one true God, from all false gods. So, God believes it's very important.

So, we should believe it's very important. We don't want to make God a false god who doesn't know the future.

That would be one aspect. You want to talk about that more or should I go to the next? Sure, sure.

I mean, that's up to you. Yeah, so maybe let me mention one other aspect that I believe is very important, and it has to do with salvation.

You know, everyone, even Arminians, believe that Jesus knew for whom he died.

So, Calvinists would say, yes, he knew for whom he died, and those were only the elect. And Arminians would say, well, he died for maybe everyone, but he still knew for whom he died.

It was a personal thing Jesus did on the cross. So, Jesus knew whose sin he took on him.

And in open theism, Jesus did not know, because God doesn't even know whether someone will exist in the future.

He knows it is possible that Chris Anson might exist, but he can't say for sure, because even your very existence is a whole chain of free choices, free libertarian choices of free beings.

So, again, I'm not sure if all open theists would claim that God doesn't know who would actually live and who would not, would exist and would not, but at least some do.

And so, if that's what you believe, then Jesus couldn't even know who he was dying for, whether it's only the elect or all men.

It makes the entire cross, it makes the salvation completely impersonal, and that also has an effect.

How can Christ actually do this for someone? So, stand there, hang on the cross for someone if he doesn't even know if there's someone would ever exist or not.

So, it also has something to do with salvation. And I believe those are very dangerous implications of open theism, therefore,

I believe, makes open theism a damnable heresy. At least if you really believe it, really understand it, are really consistent,

I think it's damnable, yes. Yes, and it really waters down, and that's to put it mildly, it denigrates what

Christ accomplished on the cross. Those that reject limited atonement, particular redemption, and definite atonement, which are all the same thing, for those of our listeners who don't know that, those that reject those things already diminish the power of the cross, the power of what

Christ actually accomplished on the cross, because in reality, they don't believe that Christ's death literally redeemed anyone on the cross.

It made men redeemable, made men atonable, it made men savable, but it did not accomplish that in finality and with certainty for anybody.

But at least they, in some sense, believe that Christ died for literal people and that those people have to embrace what he did in order to activate or receive the benefits from that death.

Whereas the open theist, you have Christ dying for just theoretical existence of humans.

He's actually dying for people he doesn't even know whether or not they'll ever come to be.

Yeah, right, right. And of course, this is not really a logical position,

I would say. I would even say, because you mentioned that, I would even say that Arminianism, so if you don't believe in definite atonement, limited atonement, whatever you want to call it,

I believe that's already very illogical. Because then Christ would only have bought you the opportunity to get saved.

So you are potentially saved. But how does that work? Christ did not hang on the cross potentially.

He didn't suffer potentially. He didn't bear sins potentially. He actually did it.

So if he bore your sins, if he was really smitten for your sins, if he really died for your sins, how can there be a second punishment?

So God says, okay, I punished my son for your sins. He hung there in your place.

He actually did that. He really hung there. But actually, if you don't accept it, well, then

I will punish you also for your sins. So that doesn't really make sense. In fact,

Charles Spurgeon said that that concept was made God more monstrous than the gods of the pagans.

Yeah, yes. Yeah, he is punishing evil twice. And that's our hope, because Christ has been punished, was punished for our sins.

Now there is no punishment left. God will not punish the same sin twice.

So, but Arminianism basically has to believe that that's what God does. He actually punished

Christ for the sins of the world, meaning for everyone. But he probably will punish most of the people again for the same sins.

So that's right. So, and of course, it gets even more strange in open theism, where I really don't know what

Christ actually really did on the cross. It's not just potential.

It's not just theoretical. It gets more and more strange, I guess. Now, most evangelical

Arminians today, if you were to ask them, did

Christ die as your substitute? They would say, absolutely. But that concept of the substitutionary atonement was at one time solely a concept of reformed or Calvinistic Christians.

Because we believe if he died literally as a substitute for anybody, then that person with certainty is not going to be penalized by the father because Christ already received the wrath of the father poured upon him and it propitiated that wrath on behalf of his people.

So there's no way that substitutionary or substitute means anything if a person is going to be punished in hell anyway.

Yeah, exactly, exactly. And of course, there are other difficulties, you know, even if God in Arminianism, God knows for sure who will make the right decision and believe in Christ and be saved.

But why did Christ still die for everyone? So God knew for whom this would be effective in the future, but Christ still bore all the other sins and was punished for all these other sins, even though God knew for a fact that those would not believe, would not make the right decision.

So why would there be this inconsistency in the

Trinity? So why would the son die for people the father knows will not be saved?

I think there's complete perfect unity in the Trinity. It doesn't make much sense that the son would die for those the father knows for certain will not be saved.

But yeah, anyways. So I'm assuming that the open theists who seem to be more keenly aware than their

Arminian counterparts, they seem to be more keenly aware of the logical conclusions that must be drawn from believing in unfettered free will of men.

I'm assuming therefore they don't use terms like substitutionary atonement and so on.

Am I correct on that? I don't think so. I haven't read that anywhere.

Again, couldn't say for sure whether someone is doing it, but I haven't seen that. Now, I know that just for the sake of our listeners being more equipped to be on the lookout, to be aware of this heresy that may come in different names.

I know that it's also known as openness theology and the openness of God and free will theism.

Is there any other labels that they have used for themselves to identify this? Those you named are all those

I also know of. I don't know if they have any other label, but those are the ones, yes.

Okay, we have to go to our midway break right now. And please be patient with us, folks, because the midway break is always a little longer than the other breaks in the show because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1

FM in Lake City, Florida, requires of us to have a longer break in the middle of the show because the

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chrisarnson at gmail .com. And we have a listener in Papillon, Nebraska, or unless they pronounce it an

American way, Papillion. So it's either Papillon or Papillion, Nebraska.

Ruben wants to know, doesn't this Open Theism understanding of God also really destroy any confidence and peace one can receive through prayer?

Well, yes, that is a good question. So because actually that is one of the reasons

Open Theists would give for their position. That God created us as free beings with a libertarian free will because he wanted to have a dynamic relationship with us.

Which means what they mean by this is basically a relationship like we have between different men.

So that God really doesn't know what is going to happen, but he will be with you.

So he's really on your level and he's experiencing your life together with you.

And he's surprised with you. Something happens and sometimes he is just saddened.

And so he basically has the same reactions to things happening as you do.

That is not a comfort to me. That is not a comfort to me. No, no, I know, I know, I know. But somehow that's how they want to see

God basically as a human being, right? So being on the same level with you.

And, you know, the book I mentioned, the book in German, the title is God has no plan for your life.

And somehow this is viewed as something good. But it's like the difference between you being in a burning building and a fireman is climbing a ladder saying,

I'm going to save you. Don't worry. Just reach out your arms. I've got you. You don't have to worry. I'm saving you.

Other than I hope I can save you. I really want to, but I don't know if I can. You know what

I'm saying? I really didn't know. Yeah, I really didn't know that this fire would happen. What can

I do now to help you? More like that, right? But regarding the prayer issue, that's part of this dynamic relationship, open theist would say, that you can really influence and change

God's mind through prayer. So God isn't fixed.

He's opened. He's open. He isn't fixed on what he's going to do. So actually through your prayer, you can actually change

God's mind. That well, that's probably that's good. Yeah, I think I want to try to do that. Yeah, so.

But as long as I'm assuming, according to their own theology, as long as it doesn't violate the free will of the creature.

Exactly. God can't make sure to grant you your prayer.

Yeah, you can't grant you your request. At least not if it involves other free creatures and their decisions.

So it is a very low, very poor view of God, where God is basically rendered.

Well, maybe not impotent, but at least much, much less omnipotent than he actually is.

So he's trying. He's really trying his best. He's trying to answer your prayers.

But yeah, you can't know that he will succeed. Maybe to give you one other example,

I think that is important. It also has something to do with the question, well, about evil and suffering in the world.

Open theists would say, well, we have a solution for that. So remember, because, you know, some are struggling. Well, how can

God be good? How can he be righteous if he allows for suffering or maybe even worse, the

Calvinistic God, yeah, who even ordained suffering and evil? Of course, without sinning himself or anything like that.

But people have an issue with that. How can God remain holy when he allows evil to happen?

And the open theists would say, well, we have a solution. God just didn't know. You know, when he created

Hitler, he knew it was a possibility what Hitler would do, but he really had no chance of knowing whether this possible future would really come to pass.

He hoped for the best. You know, he created Hitler. He knew the Holocaust could happen. World War II could happen.

But, well, I hope for the best. I hope that's not the future that will actually come to pass. No, you just go ahead.

I'm sorry. Continue. Yeah. What I wanted to say, because this has something to do also with prayer.

So this pastoral aspect, you know, one of those open theists,

I think it was Steve Gregg, is that his name? No, no, sorry.

Not Steve Gregg. That's someone else. Gregg Boyd, I'm sorry. Right, right. The former one that's been accosted.

Exactly, exactly. He said what was important for him on his way, on his journey to become an open theist was a talk he had, a pastoral talk with a lady he called

Suzanne. Suzanne had married a Christian man and she really thought, well, this is the man

God wants me to marry. There were some signs, at least she interpreted as signs. And well, it is the will of God for me to marry this man.

And then, well, this man actually, you know, he had other women.

He was an adulterer. He betrayed her and they got divorced. And now

Suzanne was asking Gregg Boyd for help, for pastoral care.

And he said, you know, God just didn't know. He is as surprised and as disappointed as you are.

It's like when he made Saul king of Israel. He really thought, he really hoped it would work out well.

And I'm wondering where's, really, where's the hope and where's any kind of comfort in that?

Well, OK, now you have a friend who just is as impotent as you are. And he also didn't know.

And he also doesn't know what to do now. He will really try to help you now. But, well, it happened.

So that's really surprising. I'm not sure. It seems some people believe that is actually a good view of God.

I don't think there's any comfort in that. Before I go on to a listener question that is actually specifically on what we are now talking about,

I had to have something clarified because you said something interesting. Not that everything you say is interesting, but this is one specific thing that had to do with a statement you made earlier.

You just said that when God created Hitler, he had no idea what

Hitler would become, the monster that he would become. Now, you said before that God is not completely aware of everyone who will become into existence.

Now, how could he create anybody like he did with Hitler if he didn't know every person that comes into existence?

I'm talking about according to their theology, of course. Right, right. So to my understanding, open theist would say that God creates men, but he probably doesn't know who he will create, who he will end up creating.

Because he couldn't know that actually Hitler's mom and Hitler's dad would really marry and have children and so on, and even go further back.

They have their grandparents and great -grandparents and so on. So he probably couldn't know for sure that he would end up creating

Hitler, but he's still the one who creates. And of course, it is a really strange thinking.

I agree. But I think from my understanding, that's how they would believe this happens.

Okay, this seems to be a desperate and flawed and miserably bad attempt of humans to defend the goodness and love of God, but going about it in a way that ignores and defies and militates against much of what

God has already taught us in his word. And that always ends in failure when we think that we puny humans have to somehow defend

God from what he has said about himself in order to defend his goodness and kindness and love and compassion.

It just turns out to be a horrible, horrible consequence that we develop, right?

Absolutely, exactly. It is horrible, and I can't really understand how someone thinks, well, that's actually some comfort, or I don't know.

And of course, you're right. Open theism is very often so clearly against the clear teaching of Scripture.

What about Romans 8, 28? God is working all things for the good of those who love him, right?

So what about those verses? Well, in open theism, he might try to work all things to the good, but he actually can't really do it, right?

Because someone comes along and says, well, let's start World War II, okay? Well, I really tried to work all things to good, but now what can

I do now? Well, I have to try to somehow make things good again. But yeah, it is really interesting and really difficult to understand how people could, yeah, in light of those clear

Scripture passages, really believe open theism. Now, you're a younger man than me.

I don't know how younger, but you're probably 20 years younger than me. I'm 62. I'm 40.

Okay, so you're even younger than I thought. Okay, I don't know if you had ever heard of Rabbi Kushner, who—

Yes. Oh, you have heard of him. He wrote a book that became very popular either in the 80s or 90s.

I can't remember what decade it first came out. But it was Why Bad Things Happen to Good People.

And it seems that open theists are doing the same thing that Rabbi Kushner attempted to do.

Yeah. He was defending the kindness and goodness and love and compassion and concern of God for humans.

And he wound up, in order to defend those attributes of God in his mind, he wound up denying the omnipotence of God.

In other words, God wants to save you from your cancer. He just can't.

God did not want those thousands of people to perish in the flood or in the tornado or the earthquake or the fire.

He just couldn't. These things were beyond his ability. So even though I'm not saying that the open theists believe that, but it's just a different route with the same purpose.

Absolutely. So this idea, this open theism idea, is not something that's limited to Christianity.

In fact, I think it's more prevalent in Judaism, or I think even

Islam. So I'm not sure if the

Christian open theists were somehow influenced by that. I think that's possible. But this is a concept you find also in those other religions.

That's right. Okay, we have Morton. Love your steakhouses, by the way,

Morton. I'm just kidding. There is a chain of steakhouses here in America called Morton Steakhouse that are excellent, but I'm sure there's no connection.

Morton in Carroll, Iowa. The thing that I have a hard time explaining to anti -Calvinists is why we, as Calvinists, pray if there is a determined, fixed outcome before the world even began, and how this coincides with James chapter 5, verse 16, the effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

Excellent question. Yes. Yeah, very good question. So I would try to go about it two ways.

First, that is a concept Calvinists have to think about quite often.

Well, God determines the outcomes, but he also determines the means.

So he determines who will and will not be saved. But he also determines that someone has to hear the gospel in order to be saved.

So we have to evangelize. We have to preach. God could, but will not save someone who hasn't heard the gospel preached to him.

So there is a distinction between the ends and the means. And that also applies to other cases as well, and also to the issue of prayer.

God has ordained everything that will come to pass. But he has also ordained that I have to pray so that it will come to pass, which doesn't mean that I could just decide, well,

I'm not going to pray. And so now God's plan is ruined. No, he also has ordained that I will pray or will not pray.

Yeah. So a perfect example is Jesus praying in the garden. You know, if it were possible to have this cup passed before me.

But this was something that was ordained before the foundation of the world, the death of Christ.

So obviously, Jesus was not attempting to change his father's mind or something.

Right. And even trying to change God's mind would be really,

I know, that would be really proud to think that I know better than God. I'm probably more loving or more gracious or that's not possible.

I cannot change God's mind to the better. He is the best. You know, he is holy and good, and I can't change him to be better.

But the other thing that happens in prayer is not so much that I change

God's mind, but God uses prayer to change me. And I don't know how often

I have experienced that myself, that when I pray, it's not just me talking to God.

It's like God talking to me. So I'm not hearing God's voice or anything like that.

But God is really working through my prayer on my heart. He is actually giving me answers.

When I ponder something in prayer, bring before him in prayer, I have some really good thoughts on how to think on this matter in a godly, in a biblical way.

So actually, I am changed by prayer. I'm made more holy by prayer because in prayer, talking really before God, that has a sanctifying effect on your thoughts.

And, you know, you will see for yourself, well, actually, I can't really say that to God.

Maybe that's not a good thought. Maybe I shouldn't think like that. So I think both is true.

Yes, we have to pray to receive, but God has already ordained what he will give us and that we will or will not pray.

So the answer means and the other important thing, I am changed. I am sanctified by my prayer.

You know, no matter how they try to defend their understanding of love as it is an attribute of God, they're always going to be missing something that makes them inconsistent.

Like, for instance, they may believe that God doesn't know the future.

He doesn't know that somebody is going to stab their next door neighbor and kill that person.

But obviously, even in their understanding of God, God is seeing the person about to do it, and he's got the power to stop that person's hand.

You know, so why didn't he stop that person from stabbing his neighbor, even if he didn't know it was going to happen?

God could have still right. He could have given that that murderer a heart attack a second before that knife came down.

I mean, you could go on and on with the scenarios of how they're not even consistent as they say they're trying to defend the love of God, even even when it comes to healing people with Rabbi Kushner's dilemma.

God can't heal people of cancer or anything. So why does

God allow people to die of cancer in the open theist's understanding of trying to preserve the love of God as an attribute?

Exactly. That's also an issue Arminianism has, right, where they say, well,

God can and ordain those things. Yeah, but he's still infallible knows that they will happen, right?

So why not? So God cannot ordain anyone to hell. OK, but he creates someone infallibly knowing he will end up in hell.

OK, I understand there is some difference, maybe, but it's not a big difference. Right. In other words, he could since God, even in the

Arminian concept, is omnipotent, all powerful. He could stop that person, you know, or do something to prevent that person from going to hell.

Yes. Right. And so back to the open theist, they would say they would.

So I believe that it was Pinnock who said God would never violate the free will, the libertarian free will of a creature, because that would be dehumanizing or depersonalizing.

So God would never do that. I think others are a little bit more open to the idea that God could actually and sometimes actually does interfere and stop someone from doing something.

But he would normally not do so because he really values very highly the free will of his creatures.

But you're right. How is God not? I mean, how does it make God any better that he sees what

Hitler is doing and he doesn't stop him from doing it? But now, you know, in Calvinism, God at least has a purpose in it.

Yes. He is working all things for the good. He's not a weak, passive observer.

Yeah, right. So, yeah, in open theism, he doesn't have any real, even any real reason for evil happening.

It's not part of his plan. It's just happening because creatures are doing it.

And now God has to try to work with this. It's almost deist, isn't it? Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, it is. Well, they would, of course. Yeah, it is a concept of God that is not really the

God of the Bible. That's right. And so I don't. Yeah, I think it's very difficult to see how

God would even be morally better if he still lets things happen, but without a purpose, a higher purpose in this.

I think that makes him even worse. OK, we are going to our final break. And if you have a question, please submit it immediately because we're rapidly running out of time.

Chris Arnson at Gmail dot com. We'll be right back. Don't go away. James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.

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and put pastor's luncheon in the subject line. We're now back with Tobias Riemenschneider. We have been discussing open theism, a dangerous heresy examined, and if you have your own questions, send it in now to ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

And I'd like you to point out some of the primary attributes of this heresy that we must know about to be fully aware of it.

Yeah, so I think it's important to understand that this comes in very nice words.

It's actually a good thing that God doesn't know everything because He really loves you and He wants you to be free and He wants to have this real dynamic relationship with you, but He will be with you.

He will also be surprised. He will also maybe not really know what to do now, but He will be with you.

He really has the same feelings as you do. So it seems this is for some really appealing as a

God that is probably more like we are, right? So more relatable maybe to some, but it actually really destroys the biblical view of God.

We said that in the beginning, God Himself says that His omniscience of all future things is what distinguishes

Him from all false gods. So whenever you have an extreme emphasis on libertarian free will of creatures or an emphasis of, well,

God really having this relationship with you that actually, well, it really looks like a relationship between two humans.

Or if, of course, what we haven't even really touched on yet, just a little bit maybe, is prophecy.

So if God can't really know the future, what about prophecy? When theists would say, well, prophecy that God can make and has made false prophecies, which of course is a real problem because God has something to say about false prophets.

So every real, you know, where we have this extreme emphasis of the libertarian free will and this dynamic human -like relationship of God.

I mean, maybe one more thing, you know, of course, they also use some Bible verses. We haven't really talked about that.

And there's not too much to talk about, to be honest. It's more a philosophical system than a biblical, exegetical system.

But they do have some Bible verses. They especially use those verses where God really speaks in human terms.

That, you know, when he tests Abraham, he says, well, now I know. Well, see,

God didn't know before. Now God knows that Abraham really believes in him and really trusts him and really obeys him.

And there are a few other passages like that when God repents of something or so.

And I can understand that someone is a little confused by those passages because it really seems like God changing his mind, learning new things, being surprised by things.

But those passages are, well, they are few. And this has always been understood by the church to be anthropomorphisms.

That's a difficult word. But it just means that God is talking to us, speaking to us in a way that we can understand.

He speaks in human terms to make us understand what is going on.

But that doesn't mean that it's exactly the same as with us. So don't make

God a mere man or maybe some exalted man, but basically very, very similar to us.

Because God says, I am not like you. He is so much exalted. He is so much different.

He is really holy. And all of those attributes, knowing the future, maybe even determining the future, making true prophecies and so on and so forth.

This is part of the being of God, of the very character of God. And taking away from that is actually changing

God and making a God in your own image. We have Ralph in Uniondale, Long Island, New York, who asks,

What do the open theists say about the foreordination of the death of Christ?

If this was entirely in the hands of the libertarian free will of humans surrounding

Christ, how could it be certain that Pilate would give over Christ to be executed?

How could it be certain that the Jews would cry out for his death? How could it be certain that the

Romans would nail him to that tree? And we could go on and on, even with Judas.

How could it be certain that Judas would betray him? Yes, that is a perfect question.

I'm very grateful for that, because that is the last point I also wanted to address. So that's perfect.

And, you know, to make it even worse, open theists would say, well, even Jesus could have made another decision.

He could have said in the garden, well, I'm not doing it. That would have been another possibility, which, of course, becomes very heretical again.

And also it also contradicts what Jesus said. He said his father's will must be taken.

Yeah, right. Scriptures must be fulfilled. And yeah, so that's totally right.

How could God have known that all those different people, you know, the elders, the high priests, the people of Israel, the

Romans, Herod and Pontius Pilate and Judas and even

Jesus and maybe even the disciples and how they reacted. How could God have known that all those hundreds, if not thousands of different free will decisions of free human beings would end up with Jesus hanging on that cross?

And the answer is he couldn't. He didn't know that it would happen. So he really tried his best.

It worked out, but he couldn't know for sure unless he would have violated the free will of those creatures.

But that's not what open theists normally would argue. So and that, of course, is in stark contrast to what the first Christians believed.

We have that. I think it's Acts 4, right, where this is addressed, where the church prays to God and they say the same opposite.

They say, well, here in this city that they're quoting from the Psalms, they're saying here in the city, all those different people,

Herod, Pontius Pilate, the nations and so on, they all came together to do what?

What your hand has foreordained that it has to come to pass. I'm not sure exactly how the English translation is, but that's my rendering of it.

So the first church in Jerusalem, they knew that the cross didn't just happen, but that all those different people with their alleged free will decisions actually only came together in this city to do one thing.

What God sent had preordained that it has to happen to crucify Christ. So exactly, that is a major issue.

And I haven't heard a good explanation of any open theists. Yeah, how this could really have happened.

It's more like, well, yeah, great it worked out, but God couldn't really have known.

And the crucifixion of Christ is the most prevalent example probably, but you could multiply that, right?

So Christ making Paul an apostle.

Well, Paul could have said, no, no, well, okay, great. Okay, you came to me, you spoke to me, you blinded me.

Well, that's really a great show, but no, I don't want to. I, okay, and now Christ would have been frustrated and, well, okay,

I have to go to plan B. Maybe Paul was plan B, who knows? That is not what the

Bible teaches. Paul can say, well, it's really from my mother's womb, yeah, that I was really ordained to do this.

So it is unbiblical, and it poses many, many problems that open theists don't really have an answer to.

Angelina in Kew Gardens, Queens, New York, wants to know, what do open theists believe about the will of the demonic realm?

After all, it appears from the descriptions in Scripture, they have feelings too.

They have fears and terrors. Why doesn't their feelings become a matter of consideration by the open theists as well as humans?

Yes, so I don't think I have heard any open theist talks specifically about demons, but I know they talk about angels, and since demons are fallen angels,

I think that they would probably say the same about demons. It's really that they also have free will.

So they can repent? Well, I don't know if they would go so far as to say that.

It would be consistent. Right. But their concept of libertarian free will is not limited to men, but at least also extends to angels.

And I don't really know how they would argue, well, it's not for demons. So I'm not sure.

I've never heard a discussion of that. I'm not sure what the answer would be. But consistently, if angels, if demons have also free will, and that's what they argue for, in the case of angels at least,

I guess they could repent. And if you could summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners about this topic today.

Yes, yes, gladly. I want really our listeners to trust in the omniscience and omnipotence and even more in the counsel of God, that he really works all things according to his will, and it's for the good of those who love him, of those he elected.

So we can actually have comfort and hope and security in knowing that God is not surprised by anything that happens to us.

And even if it's the most sad and terrible thing that we could imagine, even if that were to happen to us, and it might, we know that this is not something that takes

God by surprise. He knew it, he ordained it, and he didn't do so because he means you any harm, but because he loves you and he actually works all things together for your good, that even through all suffering, you will in the end be with him in eternal glory.

And that is something only the true God of the Bible can do. Amen. And to remind our listeners of your websites for the

Evangelical Reformed Baptist Church in Frankfurt, Germany, go to erb -frankfurt .de.

That's erb -frankfurt .de. And for the

Frankfurt Declaration, go to frankfurtdeclaration .com, frankfurtdeclaration .com.

Tobias, you always do a superb job. I look forward to many frequent returns to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio from you.

I want to thank everybody who listened. I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater