May 27, 2024 Show with Tobias Riemenschneider on “Open Theism: A Dangerous Heresy Examined”

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So send me that email to chrisarnson at gmail .com and register for this wonderful event today. But today we have the honor for the third time of having my guest Tobias Riemenschneider return to the program.

Tobias Riemenschneider is pastor of the Evangelical Reformed Baptist Church of Frankfurt, Germany, where he is conducting this program live right now from Germany. He is the co-author of the Frankfurt Declaration of Christian and Civil Liberties.

He is a passionate anti-abortion activist and author of the book, Resisting Tyranny, A Christian Response to Government Overreach. Today we're going to be addressing Open Theism, A Dangerous Heresy Examined.

It's my honor and privilege to welcome you back for the third time to Iron Sharpens Iron.

Radio, Tobias Riemenschneider. Thank you so much brother for having me on again.

And why don't you, for the sake especially of those listeners who have not yet heard you on the show, tell our listeners about the Evangelical Reformed.

Baptist Church of Frankfurt, Germany. Yeah, so that's a church. The planting of the church started ten years ago in 2014. My now co-pastor Peter came to Frankfurt to plant a Reformed Baptist Church, the only one in Frankfurt, and I met him the first, the very first Bible study he had in his living room.

I was there and I stayed because that was exactly what I was looking for, someone who really believed the Bible, preached the Bible as the Word of God. So I stayed and about two and a half years later the church was officially incorporated.

Peter and I both became pastors of the church, and yeah, God has been good to us. We survived COVID and all the state measures, and we are growing and are blessed and are very grateful. We are now about 160, 170 people each given Sunday.

We started with 12, so I think that's a good development. Praise God.

And you said you're the only Reformed Baptist Church in Frankfurt, Germany. How many Reformed Baptist churches in the entirety of Germany are there? Yeah, so a.

Few years ago it would have been very easy to say we have five or six in all of Germany. Now the number is growing, also at least partially through our ministry. People are listening to us, and some like what we do, and they also become Reformed Baptists.

I would guess, but it's only a guess, that there are maybe now probably a dozen of Reformed Baptist churches in all of.

Germany. Still very small. Well, I urge anybody listening, if you live in or near Frankfurt, Germany, if you are going to be vacationing in or near Frankfurt, Germany, or if you have family, friends, and loved ones who live in or near Frankfurt, Germany, the website of the Evangelical Reformed Baptist Church of Frankfurt, where my guest is the pastor Tobias Riemenschneider, the website is erb-frankfurt-de.

That's erb-frankfurt .de. And hopefully you will look that up, and you will visit this congregation if possible, and even join it if you live in that area, if you do not already have a biblically sound church home.

Also, if you could, since we've already addressed this on the program before, but at least in a summary form, tell our listeners about the Frankfurt Declaration of Christian and Civil Liberties. Oh yeah, sure.

So the.

Frankfurt Declaration was a project that was started by a brother from London. He assembled a few pastors from all over the world, including Canada, certain countries from Europe, from Africa, and so on.

And his vision was to have a global declaration addressing especially what was happening during COVID, when states, governments started to outlaw church services, and so on and so forth. And well, after some time, we split up a group consisting of three pastors, including myself.

We continued with the idea we had, how this declaration should look like. And we ended up actually finishing it. And it's not just about COVID. It really tries to address basically all of the main issues we are facing in our time.

So it is government overreach, but it's also secular humanism, it's transgenderism, and so on and so forth. It's not a huge declaration. I think it consists of five articles. But I think we managed to really melt everything down to what's really important.

And we are very surprised and very grateful that God used our efforts. And the declaration was signed by men like John MacArthur, or James White, or Wally Bauckham, and others. So it was a success that we never had anticipated.

But we are very grateful for that.

Praise God. And if anybody wants more details on the Frankfurt Declaration of civil, of Christian and civil liberties, go to Frankfurt declaration .com. Frankfurt declaration .com. I figure I might as well also announce the October Iron Trump and Zion radio free pastors luncheon.

I've already mentioned the one that's coming up in just about a week with Dr. Joel Beeky here in Pennsylvania on June 6. But on October the 10th, which is a Thursday, we have the honor and privilege for the first time of having Dr. Joe boot as our keynote speaker at the full iron sharpens iron radio free pastors luncheon.

And I mentioned that now, because I know that Dr. boot is someone very highly esteemed by my guest today, Tobias Riemenschneider. And in fact, the month after he is speaking at my luncheon, he is speaking in Frankfurt, Germany, have any thing that you'd like to say about this esteemed keynote speaker that I'm having Joe boot?

Yes, sure. So yes, I heard him in high esteem. And he is also a personal friend. Someone who is dear to me. And I am also a fellow of the Astra Institute. So there are some connections there. And he visited us last year already, and for our conference in 2023.

And he will do so again in November, November 8 and 9 2024. He will be one of the keynote speakers. Others keynote speakers will be Jeff Durbin and Luke Pearson, both from apologia church. Wow. Yeah. And if anyone wants to hear what I have to say, I will also try to say something.

And, yeah, and the the title of the conference is dragon slayer. Wow. So we want to we want to talk about Satan, the old dragon, and how he was already slain by Christ, the great dragon slayer, and how we now have to slay him in our private lives and our hearts and our homes, and also in our countries.

I'm.

Assuming that there's going to be a German translator. Yes, everything will.

Be translated into German and into English. If when I speak, I will speak in German, but there will be also translation into English. So everyone who understands either German or English is invited to come.

Yeah. I wonder if our.

Mutual friend, Dr. James White, would need a German translator. I wonder if he speaks German fluently enough. I know he speaks at some level, but I don't know if he's ever shared with you how fluent he is in German.

Well, I don't know. I.

Think he would he would be fine with normal conversations. I'm not sure if there is a something that has some German theological terms and so on. I'm not sure how he knows all those terms, but he might.

I think I have to test him.

On that. Well, we are discussing a very important topic today because it is a theological heresy that although is currently not all that large as far as its influence, but it is growing, and it is known as open theism.

And by the way, if anybody listening wants to send in a question to Tobias Riemenschneider about this heresy, open theism, our email address is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com, C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com.

Give us your first name at least, city and state, and country of residence. Well, if you could give us a working definition of open theism, and tell us about where its origins began. How old is this heresy?

They say there's nothing new under the sun. I don't know if this is something that is a reinvention of an older heresy, but tell us exactly what this.

Heretical system of thought is. Yeah, so open theism basically denies the omniscience of God, at least the classical definition of omniscience. They would say, no, we believe in the omniscience of God, we just have another definition.

They would say God knows everything that can be known, that is knowable, if that's the word. And they would say, well, so God knows everything that ever happened in the past. He knows everything which is currently happening in the present.

But he cannot know everything that will happen in the future, because the future does not exist. And therefore, there's nothing that can be known. And where the issue comes in is that they say, well, God has given his creatures, men and angels, libertarian free will.

And so he doesn't know how those creatures will make decisions. He doesn't know what decisions men will actually make in the future. Because in the moment, in the future, in that very moment, they make the decision, they are really completely free.

So he can't know what exactly they will choose. And so we can't know what the future will look like. He knows all possible futures. But he doesn't know what which of these futures will actually materialize.

I've heard that some of those professing to be open theists actually have called themselves consistent Arminians. Is that true?

Yeah, yes, absolutely. So maybe just one, of course, you know, we are now talking about an entire movement. So there are differences of opinion. Yeah. So if someone says, well, that's that I'm an open theist, and that's not what I believe.

Yes. So we are talking generally. Right. So, yes, they say they are consistent Arminians. And you can understand why they say that. And I would probably even agree with them that they are consistent Arminians.

Because, you know, if you really say that creatures that stay with man, that man has libertarian free will, then actually, probably God can't know what decision they will make. Because if God knew, infallible, every decision a man will make in the future, how can this man then be free in the exact moment in the future when he actually makes this decision?

Because he can only make the decision that God has already foreknown. If he would make any other decision, then God's foreknowledge would have been false. And that's impossible. So there is actually in Arminianism, where God knows what decision everyone will make, there is actually no real libertarian free will, because in the very situation in the future, where I have to make my decision, I can only decide for one thing, because that's what God has already foreknown and infallible.

So I understand that there is an issue with the concept of libertarian free will. If God already knows it, how can I make another decision? Am I really free in that moment in time? Probably not. And that's why they would say we are the consistent Arminians.

We really believe that there is total freedom and I can decide either or. And God can't know, because I'm really free in that moment.

Now, as I began to tell you in advance that I was going to ask you this, how old is this heresy?

Oh, yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, this heresy has been around for some time, but it never really had any traction. So you can trace back people who said something like that in the past. But as a movement, it really developed recently, basically in the 1980s and especially in the 1990s.

I think it was 1994, the early 90s, when several open theists came together to publish a book on open theism. And that was really when this really got some traction, which was on the display. And actually many reacted to this.

Well, James White, John Piper, Dominic Arthur, Doug Wilson. So in the 90s and early 2000s, I guess, many actually talked about open theism, published books and articles on this. So it is as a movement, it is a rather recent movement.

And as you said, it is it is not dead. It is alive and well, alive and kicking. Just a few years ago, I think two or three years ago, the first book on open theism from a German speaking author was published.

And so now this is also an issue here in Germany. So, yeah, it is still something that we have to talk about. And that is that is far from being dead.

Yeah. And the the folks that I have heard who have been a part of this movement are the late Clark Pinnock, who at one time was considered a very sound and highly esteemed reformed theologian. And he just really threw everything overboard.

And Greg Boyd, who, interestingly enough, was a former oneness Pentecostal who came out of that and was defending the Trinity and was even promoted back in the days when Hank Hanegraaff was considered a sound evangelical Protestant.

He is since apostatized into Eastern Orthodoxy. And John Sanders and Dallas Willard are the names that I have heard. Anybody else that that you care to mention who our listeners should be warned about who are in the forefront of this?

Well, there have been a few others. One is Sandlin. I forgot his first name now. Another was Bob Enyart. But he also died a few years ago, rather recently. There are a few others, but the one you named are the most well known one.

And in history that you are aware of, I'm talking about, you know, dating back centuries or even ancient history. Have there been any professing Christian theologians of note that denied that God knew all things that would occur in the future?

Not to my knowledge. So I know that this became an issue two or three hundred years ago. So what I can say, I'm not completely sure with regard to the early church. But I think it pretty much became generally accepted with Augustine, the latest.

So I'm not completely sure whether there was maybe someone before that who taught that. But it was never a position that had really any meaning, any importance in the church. So if there was someone, I am not aware of it.

Well, we're going to go to our first commercial break. And if you'd like to join us once again, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com. Give us your first name, at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence.

If you live outside the USA, only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. Let's say you are in a church that teaches this heresy and you are realizing that this is not biblical and you don't want to draw attention to your identity publicly right now.

Or perhaps you're even a pastor and your fellow elders are believing in this, or what have you. Those kinds of things we could understand. You'd want to remain anonymous. But if it's just a general question, please give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence.

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So go to royaldiadem .com today and mention Iron Sherpa and Zion Radio. We're now back with Tobias Riemenschneider, pastor of the Evangelical Reformed Baptist Church of Frankfurt, Germany, and we are discussing open theism, a dangerous heresy examined, and if you have a question of your own, send it to chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

Chrisarnsen at gmail .com. Give us first name at least, city and state, and country of residence. Now, Pastor Tobias, as you already mentioned, the adherents of open theism would claim that they believe in the omniscience of God because they say that he does know all things except those things that would defy the freedom of his creatures, and that is why they refer to them, or at least some of them, refer to themselves as consistent Arminians, because the Arminian actually, in practical terms, functions as if the future is not known as to whether somebody is going to embrace or reject Christ, and that final determiner is that person.

That sinner is the one that determines his eternal destiny, really, because it is he who is the final arbiter, the final one to throw the switch on or off, as it were, as to whether to embrace or reject Christ.

So they are just claiming that that is a consistent outflowing of Arminian theology, and we, although we reject this open theism as absolute heresy, we see the logic in their statement, that it is a natural result, a logical, consistent result of believing in an Arminian understanding of the nature of man and man's ability to please God by offering him as faith that saves before he is even regenerate.

Am I making sense here?

Yes, absolutely. And, you know, so I was asked to write an article about open theism for a German magazine, and I thought, well, do I really want to go so deep into open theism? I mean, who believes that?

Well, I found out there are some who do believe it. But what really intrigued me was exactly that consistency there. So this is also, to some extent at least, a discussion between this old discussion between Calvinism and Arminianism.

Of course, Arminians are not open theists, even though, to quote James White, some of them might really want to be open theists, because that would be consistent. But yeah, but it has something, it plays into that as well, this discussion between Calvinism and Arminianism.

Oh, one of the things that I was going to ask you when I just gave that opening to the discussion when we came back from the break is that how serious, in your opinion, is this heresy? Because, as we've already stated, it's not as if open theists believe God does not know anything that will occur in the future.

It's only those specific things that involve the free choices of his creatures. And can we rightly consider it serious enough to be damnable heresy?

Yes, I would say so. Which does not mean that everyone who holds to it is necessarily damned, because I believe there is a difference between those who maybe just don't really understand it, have been taught it, but so maybe are still saved.

But if you really buy into this, yes, I believe it is a damnable heresy for several reasons. One is this really concerns the being of God. And, you know, God takes this very seriously. So his omniscience, God takes very seriously.

There is this passage in Isaiah, which actually covers several chapters, beginning, I think, in Isaiah 40 or 41 and stretching to Isaiah 46. It is basically the judgment on the false gods. And it is precisely God's omniscience that God himself uses here to distinguish himself from all false gods.

Let me just quote this. So it's in Isaiah 40, 41. And I'm quoting verses 21 to 23. So here God speaks, set forth your case, says the Lord, bring your proofs, says the King of Jacob. Let them bring them and tell us what is to happen.

Tell us the form of things, what they are, that we may consider them, that we may know the outcome or declare us the things to come. Tell us what is to come hereafter, that we may know that you are gods.

So this is God speaking with a challenge to all those false gods and telling, OK, you want to prove that you are gods? OK, tell us the future. Maybe tell us also the past and why it happened, but also tell us the future.

Then we will believe that you are gods. So God himself says this is really important. This distinguishes me, the one true God, from all false gods. So God believes it's very important. So we should believe it's very important.

We don't want to make God a false god who doesn't know the future. That would be one aspect. You want to talk about that.

More or should I go to the next? Sure, sure. I mean, that's up to you.

Yeah, so maybe let me mention one other aspect that I believe is very important, and it has to do with salvation. You know, everyone, even Arminians, believe that Jesus knew for whom he died. So Calvinists would say, yes, he knew for whom he died.

And those were only the elect. And Arminians would say, well, he died for maybe everyone, but he still knew for whom he died. It was a personal thing Jesus did on the cross. So Jesus knew whose sin he took on him.

And in open theism, Jesus did not know, because God doesn't even know whether someone will exist in the future. He knows it is possible that Christ might exist, but he can't say for sure, because even your very existence is a whole chain of free choices, free libertarian choices of free beings.

So again, I'm not sure if all open theists would claim that God doesn't know who would actually live and who would not, would exist and would not, but at least some do. And so if that's what you believe, then Jesus couldn't even know who he was dying for, whether it's only the elect or all men.

It makes the entire cross, it makes the salvation completely impersonal. And that also has an effect. How can Christ actually do this for someone? So stand there, hang on the cross for someone if he doesn't even know if this someone would ever exist or not.

So it also has something to do with salvation. And I believe those are very, very dangerous implications of open theism, which therefore I believe makes open theism a damnable heresy. At least if you really believe it, really understand it, are really consistent, I think it's damnable, yes.

Yes, and it really waters down, and that's to put it mildly, it denigrates what Christ accomplished on the cross. Those, those that reject limited atonement, particular redemption, and definite atonement, which are all the same thing, and for those of our listeners who don't know that, those that reject those things already diminish the power of the cross, the power of what Christ actually accomplished on the cross, because in reality they don't believe that Christ's death literally redeemed anyone on the cross.

It made men, it made men redeemable, made men atonable, it made men savable, but it did not accomplish that in finality and with certainty for anybody. But at least they, in some sense, believe that Christ died for literal people, and that those people have to embrace what he did in order to activate or receive the benefits from that death, whereas the open theist, you have Christ dying for just theoretical existence of humans.

He's actually dying for people he doesn't even know.

Whether or not they'll ever come to be. Yeah, right, right, and of course this is this is not really a logical position, I would say. I would even say, maybe, yeah, because you mentioned that, I would even say that a minionism, so if you don't believe in definite atonement, limited atonement, whatever you want to call it, I believe that's already very illogical.

Right, right. Because, you know, yeah, then Christ would only have bought you the opportunity to get saved. So you are potentially saved. But how does that work? Christ did not hang on the cross potentially.

He didn't suffer potentially. He didn't bear sins potentially. He actually did it. So if he bore your sins, if he was really smitten for your sins, if he really died for your sins, how can there be a second punishment?

So God says, okay, I punished my son for your sins. He hung there in your place. He actually did that. He really hung there. But actually, if you don't accept it, well, then I will punish you also for your sins.

So that doesn't.

Really make sense. In fact, Charles Spurgeon said that that concept was made God more monstrous than the gods of the pagans. Yeah, yes, yeah. He is punishing.