Why Aren't Depressed People Joyful?

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when you think about people who are getting this label, like if you train yourself in worthlessness, then you're gonna be more worthless, right?

00:08

Like that's the way it's gonna work. Like if you give yourself over to worthlessness, you're gonna feel it, right? Like imagine yourself being like 33 years old or something like that, living in your parents' basement.

00:18

You play video games all day long and you have no marriage prospects. I mean, imagine what you're gonna feel when you do that, right?

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It may be fun to get to play your video games or whatever, but there's gonna be that excessive guilt and that shame and that condemnation and that despair because you know that you're made to do certain things.

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And it's like, no woman's gonna, your right mind is gonna wanna marry you. You don't have a job. You don't have a plan. Your prospects are rapidly leaving, right?

00:44

Like they're all getting married. They're all leaving you behind. Like you haven't done anything with your life and you're so far behind at this point that what are you gonna do?

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Warning, the following message may be offensive to some audiences. These audiences may include, but are not limited to, professing Christians who never read their Bible, sissies, sodomites, men with man buns, those who approve of men with man buns, man bun enablers, white knights for men with man buns, homemakers who have finished

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Netflix but don't know how to meal plan, and people who refer to their pets as fur babies. Viewer discretion is advised. People are tired of hearing nothing but doom and despair on the radio.

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The message of Christianity is that salvation is found in Christ alone. Hope of salvation, any hope of heaven.

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The issue is that humanity is in sin and the wrath of almighty

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God is hanging over our head. They will hear his words, they will not act upon them, and when the floods of divine judgment, when the fires of wrath come, they will be consumed and they will perish.

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Jesus is saying there is a group of people who will hear his words, they will act upon them, and when the floods of divine judgment come in that final day, their house will stand.

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Welcome to Bible Bashed, where we aim to equip the saints for the works of ministry by answering the questions you're not allowed to ask.

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We're your host, Harrison Kerrigg and Pastor Tim Mullett, and today we'll answer the age -old question, why aren't depressed people joyful?

02:40

Now, Tim, as we kick this episode off, what Bible verse do you have for us that relates to depression and joy?

02:47

Yeah, sure, so 1 Thessalonians 5 .18 says, give thanks in all circumstances for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.

02:56

Okay, so a pretty simple command, right? Give thanks all the time in all circumstances, right?

03:02

Yeah, easy. No matter what's going on. Yeah, easy, right? It's so simple.

03:09

Yeah, it probably one of the, you know, there's plenty of times in my life where I should have obeyed this command and I certainly failed.

03:19

So probably an easier said than done command for me all the time, but nonetheless, a command that is given anyway, right?

03:29

Sure, yeah, I mean, that's obviously one of those verses that God has written in the

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Bible in order to demonstrate the exceedingly sinful nature of man there.

03:42

So yeah, this is one of those verses that establish the fact that we are certainly not perfect.

03:53

Yeah, I mean, when you read a verse like this, you really do just, you think about all of the times that, you know, all the things that you've gone through in your life up to this point and all the times that you should have been thankful and you weren't, you know, and you were filled with bitterness or envy.

04:13

You're just complaining all the time. And then you read the verse and it just says, give thanks at all times, you know, in all circumstances, give thanks.

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And you obviously, you know, probably one of the first things you think of is either, you know, the book of Job or Jesus himself.

04:36

You know, so Job is, he's tested by Satan and brought through just awful circumstance, worse than most of us will probably ever face in our lifetime.

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And, you know, his initial response was to praise the Lord. And so then Satan had to go back and do even more to him because he refused to, you know, forsake

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God there initially. And then obviously with Jesus, you know, he's without sin, he's perfect.

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And, you know, he's perfectly in line with the will of the Father. So much so that it's his joy to even go die and be crushed by the

05:20

Father. And that's a pretty profound thing to think about and then compare yourself to and all of the, you know, middling circumstances and comparison where you fold under this kind of command, right?

05:37

Yeah, I mean, it's amazing. Yeah, there's no sense in which complaining is ever morally justified by, you know, in a

05:44

Christian worldview ever. I mean, even though that's basically the language we speak where you can't, you know, many of us can't go a few minutes without complaining.

05:53

Complaining is the language that we speak. It's the currency that we bring to social interactions.

05:59

I mean, it's characteristic of unbelievers in their conversations. I mean, just listen to work conversations in,

06:05

I guess, secular field. And what you'll realize is it's just complaint after complaint after complaint. I mean, it's interesting if you listen to comedians ever.

06:15

Sometimes I have a hard time listening to comedians because all they do is complain the whole time. And once you kind of notice it, it's one of those things where it just gets harder and harder to laugh because it's just, it's like I, and I think not just noticing it.

06:31

I mean, the more that you are trying to fight this sin of complaining on your own, and it's one of those things where you find it repelling.

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And then, you know, the idea of just like spending an hour laughing at someone complain nonstop, it just, it loses its charm, you know?

06:46

That kind of thing. But the Bible, certainly like in the minds of many people, complaining is one of those things that is natural, it's normal, it's reasonable, in some ways it's understandable.

06:58

But then from a biblical worldview, there's never any reason to ever complain, like to ever like not be filled with thanksgiving and joy.

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And that's just because, I mean, if you understand who God is, you understand that he upholds the universe by the word of his power.

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If you understand his sovereignty, that there's nothing that can happen on this earth that is happening contrary to his will, that everything that happens is for his glory and for your good as a believer, meaning that every situation that he puts you in, he's putting you in in order to test your faith, in order that it may produce steadfastness in you.

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And it's an opportunity for you to grow in Christlikeness, that there's really, there's no maverick molecule, there's just nothing that can happen apart from him.

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So the more that you understand that, the more you realize that like complaining really is a loathsome thing to God.

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And it's one of those things that as you read the Bible, you see over and over and over again that like God responds very like angrily to complaining.

08:06

I mean, people die, the ground will swallow up and will open up and swallow people.

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There'll be fire that comes and consumes people, there's snakes that will bite people.

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God will send all sorts of plagues on people for their lack of thanksgiving. And it really is a story of the

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Israelites from start to finish, they don't see God's sovereignty in the midst of their circumstances, like everything

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God is doing, he's doing it for their good and they only see it as evil. And that's what's happening, like when you fuss and you complain, you're just looking at God and saying, hey, you're an incompetent ruler of the world, you don't know what you're doing.

08:43

If I was in charge, I would do much better than you. And then we just all laugh about it. Ha, ha, ha, you know, but that's what we're saying.

08:51

And so, yeah, certainly there's no place for a lack of gratitude in a biblical worldview, for sure.

08:58

You know, the irony is after everything you just said, we might get some complaints that you've ruined comedians for people listening.

09:08

Well, good. Good. Ha, ha, ha. A bunch of whiner fussers, you know.

09:13

Ha, ha, ha. So, turning the conversation towards, you know, the topic of depression, you know, the title question of the episode is why aren't depressed people joyful?

09:27

So obviously this is one of those areas where I don't know that I've ever met anyone who hasn't, you know, everyone that I've ever met for longer, and had a conversation with for longer than a few minutes has complained to me.

09:42

And I've done the same to other people, right? But then when we're having a discussion about, you know, the person who is just totally characterized by despair all the time, it seems like they're on a completely different level when it comes to their lack of joy.

10:03

At least that's the, when you're asking a question like why aren't depressed people joyful, that's sort of the presupposition that you've got underneath the question is, you know, the presupposition would be depressed people are not joyful.

10:19

They're not characterized by consistent joy. So I guess first, why don't we just talk a little bit about, you know, how are we coming to that conclusion?

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Is there anything to back that up? What does scripture have to say about the idea that the person wallowing in despair is not characterized by joy generally?

10:45

Yeah. So, I mean, you look at the DSM diagnosis for depression, you'll realize that the

10:51

DSM diagnosis for depression is two weeks of, you know, sudden unexplained hopelessness or despair for a two week period nearly all day long every day.

11:02

You know, and then you're gonna have things like this characteristic by, you know, excessive guilt and, you know, significant weight gain or weight loss, like inability to sleep or sleep too much, you know, that kind of thing.

11:15

So it's right there in the diagnosis. And if you've ever talked to a depressed person in your life, you'll realize that they're just like, all that comes out of their mouth is bitterness and cursing and everything else.

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They don't have anything good to say. They don't have anything positive to say. Like their whole mood is, like their mood on the outside is showing what's happening on the inside.

11:36

So, I mean, I've literally never met a depressed person who's been filled with joy and thanksgiving and, you know, peace and everything else.

11:46

Like these are just, you wouldn't get the label if that was what was characteristic of you, right?

11:53

So like, yeah, there's, I mean, there's some kind of hypothetical scenario where a person could have a depressed mood, you know, period, like they just feel down and there's some biological explanation for it.

12:06

But I mean, with MDD, major depressive disorder, like that's all ruled out in diagnostic criteria, meaning like if there was some kind of biological explanation for why a person would have no energy and be lethargic or something along those lines, then they would get that medical diagnosis there.

12:24

But like the reality is, this is the label that happens when all the medical tests run up empty. And so this is just sudden, unexplained hopelessness despair for a two week period, nearly all day, every day, on and on it goes.

12:36

So, I mean, that's just what it is. They're just describing the normal depressed person that you've met, that you know.

12:44

You know, so the stereotypical depressed person is the person who's just laying around in bed. They not getting up anymore.

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They're not really taking care of the basic issues of life. I mean, in fact, like when you're counseled, like a person who's, you know, quote unquote, clinically depressed, you know, that's a euphemism.

12:59

But when you counsel someone like that, I mean, one of the first things that you'll tell them is to go take a shower, you know, and change their clothes, that kind of thing.

13:07

So in general, like the classic person who fits this diagnosis is, quote unquote, diagnosis.

13:14

The classic person that fits that bill is gonna be the kind of person who really is not taking care of their responsibilities anymore.

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They feel sad all the time. They're hopelessness despair. They don't know what to do with it. That's what their life is, you know.

13:26

So there's no joy there. There's no gratitude there. There's no Thanksgiving there. It doesn't come out of their mouth. All that comes out of their mouth is their list of complaints.

13:34

Yeah, you know, I think about some people that I've met in my lifetime who have just, they've claimed to me to be depressed.

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And I have met some who outwardly, initially, they seem like they're joyful.

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They like, meaning like they try to put on a front and pretend like they are.

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But then the more you talk to them, the more the mask kind of slips because it seems like they're typically pretty desperate to share all their woes with you, essentially.

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And so the more you talk to them, the more you start to realize like, it doesn't seem like this person's as happy as I initially thought they were based off the things they're saying, you know?

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And so I imagine there's probably some people out there who are listening to your explanation and saying,

14:31

I know tons of people who are depressed and they're more joyful than I am, you know?

14:37

And I think - What an indictment. I don't, yeah, yeah. I think my response to that is just, yeah, they're probably faking it and you either don't realize or you haven't, you know, you haven't talked to them long enough for the mask to slip because everyone

14:57

I've ever talked to that was like that event, you know, eventually, and it didn't take a long time, but eventually you kind of start realizing, hey, it seems like this is all fake.

15:10

Like this isn't actually what you think. This isn't actually what you feel, you know?

15:17

So is that your experience as well? Well, I mean, part of this is just the nature of like what these words actually mean,

15:26

I guess. So when you think about what these words actually mean, like walking through the criteria, like in order to,

15:33

I mean, you have like depression in the common sense and you have a lot of people who are like self, you know, quote, unquote, diagnosing themselves in that way.

15:41

So, I mean, that's something that can happen, but when you look at the criteria here, like the

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DSM -5, it outlines the following criteria to make a diagnosis of depression. The individual must be experiencing five or more symptoms during the same two week period.

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And at least one of the symptoms should be a depressed mood or loss of interest or in pleasure, basically.

16:01

So one of them has to be a depressed mood and like the depressed mood needs to be most of the day, nearly every day.

16:08

So like already, like the kind of person you're describing isn't going to be the kind of person who is depressed most of the day, nearly every day, right?

16:15

There's going to be marked, you need five, what's it called? Five or more of these, eight or whatever.

16:22

So markedly diminished interest and pleasure in almost all activities, most of the day, nearly every day.

16:29

So you're talking about a person who's like depressed mood, loss of interest and, you know, pleasure almost all day long, right?

16:36

Nearly every day. Significant weight loss when not dieting or weight gain.

16:43

Decrease or increase in appetite nearly every day. A slowing down of thought, reduction of physical movement observable by others, not merely subjective feelings of restlessness or being slowed down.

16:52

So, I mean, that's like the psychomotor agitation. That's like when you're looking at them, they're going to look like they're moving slow and they're sluggish and they're lethargic, right?

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And then like fatigue or loss of energy nearly every day. Then you're going to have the feelings of worthlessness or excessive or inappropriate guilt nearly every day.

17:09

The diminished ability to think or concentrate indecisiveness nearly every day. And then the reoccurring thoughts of death, reoccurring suicidal ideation without a specific plan or a suicide attempt or a specific plan for committing suicide.

17:22

So like you're talking about something with this word that's much more significant than just a person who says, yeah,

17:32

I feel depressed sometimes, right? Like, so like with people who really have, I don't even want to say the word have.

17:40

With people who really fit that description, like they're going to be the kind of person who just, they look like a zombie.

17:47

They look like they're out of it. They're just, you can look at them and you can observe there's something wrong with them.

17:53

They're down, right? And they're not going to be able to fake it because this is nearly all day long every day kind of thing, right?

18:01

So, I mean, I think like depression in the common sense of the word, like feeling sad or feel like, a lot of it's just related to this idea of feeling worth, like feelings of worthlessness or excessive or inappropriate guilt.

18:16

There's a lot of people that can have like that worthlessness or guilt that's underneath the surface that doesn't show up in every situation, you know?

18:25

And a lot of the people you might be describing are the kind of people who maybe just have like, they're weighed down by guilt and shame and condemnation.

18:31

They're doing everything they can to mask it, right? But then they don't have all the rest of it. These descriptions applying to them at that point, if that makes sense.

18:39

Sure, yeah. So, but they may, I think, I mean, guilt is the human condition. Feelings of worthlessness, shame, guilt, shame, condemnation, man, that's life in a fallen world apart from God.

18:49

So everyone fits that bill, you know? Yeah. It's just a matter of like, a lot of people hide it better than others, but I mean, the person who's like really thankful, like that,

19:02

I met very few people in my life who were just like, man, they're really thankful.

19:08

And it's like, it's not just like, it's not like a bragging contest or something like that.

19:15

It's like, God is good and He is sovereign and He's in control. And I'm so thankful for everything that He's doing in my life kind of person, you know?

19:24

That kind of person, I've never, like that's what I would describe as like true joy is the kind of person who has like a

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God -centered thankfulness that is unshakable no matter what happens in their life, they're praising the

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Lord. And you know, that kind of thing, you can't fake it, you know? And you can't really even fake it for short periods of time, that kind of thing.

19:49

But you know, I've never done that. Go ahead. And that was the next thing I was gonna ask you is that, you know, if we're defining things,

19:56

I guess it'd probably be helpful to define what joy actually is biblically as well.

20:04

So, you kind of gave an example there, but then can you flesh that out a little bit more in terms of, because some people will sit there and say, they'll confuse, you know, and I even did this earlier, people will confuse happiness with joy.

20:20

And then sometimes people will use them as those two words as synonyms, which is what

20:28

I was doing, but not necessarily thinking they're the same exact thing, but, you know, we just speak a certain way about happiness related to joy.

20:39

And then there are plenty of Christians who just straight up think happiness and joy are the same thing.

20:45

And so it might be helpful just to define what is joy? How is it distinct from happiness?

20:54

As you know, so that maybe we're a little more clear on that with this conversation. Yeah, it's pretty interesting.

21:00

This is an interesting topic for me personally, because I used to really make a hard disjunction between happiness and joy.

21:09

So I would set them in opposition to each other. And a lot of what was happening was I was a young person who wasn't married at that point in my life, and I wanna be married.

21:18

And so I wanted to assert, you know, with the strongest language possible. And I think

21:24

I was a little bit imbalanced in this way, but I wanted to assert that happiness and joy weren't synonyms. It is possible to have like joy, the fruit of the spirit kind of joy without necessarily being characterized by happiness.

21:36

And there's a lot of Bible verses to back that up. I mean, Jesus was a man of sorrow as well, acquainted with grief and everything else, you know.

21:42

But I think I wanted to set happiness and joy almost as if they're enemies or something.

21:49

And, you know, I think maybe some of that was just compensating for certain aspects of my character that needed to change, you know.

21:57

I'm willing to admit that. But, you know, as you think about it, I think there is a, as I thought about it over the years,

22:05

I really don't think that joy and happiness are so far off.

22:11

It's more about like what they're attached to. So, I mean, you can read through the Bible and you can see like rejoice and be exceedingly glad for great is your reward in heaven.

22:22

And I don't know how to characterize that. Like, I don't know how to describe that with like your standard emotionless hipster or something like that, right?

22:33

Who is secretly joyful, but no one would ever know, right? Yeah, you can't tell, but I'm super joyful.

22:41

Yeah, and I think a lot of the people who just don't seem very happy ever, you know, they may be the kind of people who are doing the kind of game that I was doing where you're saying, hey, well, you know, happiness and joy are not the same thing.

22:55

And what's actually happening though is in their heart, there's just, there's a lack of contentment there that's just showing up, you know?

23:02

So, but I mean, I think the kind of thing you're talking about would be, there is a kind of person who just like is giddy with excitement over the next

23:10

Marvel movie that came out or something like that, or puts on an act of happiness that, you know, seems to be like a

23:18

Robin Williams type where they're always acting happy. And then, you know, who knew he suffered secretly from depression, no one would have known, you know?

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Kind of thing, and then ends up committing suicide or whatever. It was all like masking some deep guilt and shame that was lurking underneath the surface that he can never resolve, you know, kind of thing.

23:38

You know, certainly those kinds of things can happen. So I think a lot of times like the happy, like biblical happiness needs to be attached to the right kind of things.

23:48

And, you know, for people who are more worldly, their happiness and their joy seems to be much more tied to like trivial entertainment and, you know, positive circumstances.

24:01

And, oh man, I just ate a cheeseburger and it was amazing, you know, and I can't think of anything else.

24:08

You know, my taste buds are like enraptured right now with, you know, so you can imagine the kind of person who's just like so in love with, you know, the world at that point where their happiness is so wrapped up in it.

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And, you know, that kind of can come and go, like where when life is going well, then they're like on cloud nine, you know?

24:31

And then when trial comes, then they're in the pits of despair and despondency and don't know how to handle life.

24:38

And so obviously like happiness isn't really all that stable, but then there is, I mean, like biblical happiness, like when it's tied to joy and thanksgiving for what

24:48

God has done, I mean, that makes you stable. And I think certainly the Christian life is meant to be a happy life.

24:54

Like I don't, like that's what the Beatitudes mean, you know, blessed means happy.

25:00

So I think the Christian life is meant to be a stable kind of happiness that maybe isn't so prone to, you know, ups and downs and everything else, but it's tied to ultimate things.

25:10

It's tied to the knowledge of what Jesus did when he died on the cross and forgave us a debt that we can never pay.

25:16

And there's a joy in the knowledge that God has forgiven us. He's working our life to good.

25:21

He's making us more like him. And there's a hope that we can see him one day that's building in our hearts that, you know, one day is gonna be fully realized.

25:30

So yeah, I mean, I think that the Christian life should be the happy life and it should be a stable, like an emotionally stable life.

25:37

But then certainly, yeah, I mean, I don't think that joy and sorrow are enemies. I think they just need to be attached to the right things.

25:44

And if you see the world the way it is, then there's a substantial amount of the Christian life that should be sorrowful because you see the damaging effects of sin.

25:55

But it's not like a self -pitying kind of sorrow that like, woe is me. I'm filled with covetousness and envy.

26:00

And, you know, it's way too painful for me to go to Mother's Day because I am not able to have a child kind of, you know, despair and hopelessness and everything else.

26:10

It's not that kind of stuff. So I think, so yeah,

26:16

I mean, joy and sadness, they don't have to be enemies, but yeah, I think the Christian life should be a happy life for sure.

26:23

So in answering that question, why aren't depressed people joyful? Now that we have those definitions, it seems like your response to that title question is just to say, well, the quote unquote depressed person is, they're -

26:44

They got a chemical imbalance in their brain. They're suffering from an illness, man. They've got the diagnosis, they got the label.

26:53

I mean, what are you supposed to do against that? You know, but - What part of clinical depression do you not understand

26:59

Harrison? This is a medical disease. I got this label from the guy with the

27:04

PhD, Tim. Come on. No, but so essentially your response is to say, hey, the reason that the depressed person isn't characterized by joy is because what they've given themselves over to is fundamentally opposite.

27:24

The opposite of joy, right? Right. I mean, if you train yourself in self -pitying sadness, like you'll get better at it.

27:35

Whatever you give yourself over to, a lot of people have given themselves over to despair and hopelessness, and they're filled with guilt and they're filled with shame.

27:44

I mean, that's what the label says. I mean, failings of worthlessness are excessive or inappropriate guilt nearly every day, all day long.

27:53

I mean, if that's your life, if you don't know how to deal with your guilt and your shame and your condemnation, if you don't know how to take that to the cross and find forgiveness, if you don't understand justification, if you don't understand sanctification, if you're, like the issue is the individuals who get this label, they've quit dealing with their life, right?

28:21

That's the way it works. So it has to result in significant impairment in their life, right?

28:30

So the kind of people who get this labeled are the kind of people who just stop doing anything productive.

28:36

So when you think about that, Solomon says, I've observed there's nothing better than a man rejoicing in the toil with which he toils under the sun.

28:45

So, I mean, you can imagine the depressed homemaker who just gives up and her house is a mess. It's one of those hoarder houses.

28:52

It's like the pictures that we posted a while back where we got everyone mad at us.

28:58

I mean, imagine if that's you, you're that homemaker and that's your house. Your house looks like a mess.

29:03

It's a nightmare, you know, it's filthy. I mean, like the Sims would tell us what happens with that, right?

29:09

Like the Sims who just die because they don't have any artwork in their house and not enough movement and sunshine.

29:15

The what? The Sims. The what? The Sims. Oh, the Sims. Oh, the

29:22

Sims. Like, we know this. Like, we know this. The video game. You know how this works, man. Like, you know how this works. Like, you know, if your house is a nightmare, it's a mess, like, and then you're not doing anything about it, right?

29:34

You're not doing anything about it. You're not cleaning it up. Like, you've given up on your work, you know?

29:39

So, I mean, I remember, so, analogy, like, you know, the Nazis, what they would do to the

29:45

Jews is they would make them build walls and then they would tear them down. And then when they get done, just to demoralize them, right?

29:51

Because work is such a profound part of our experience and there's this sense of accomplishment that you get when you do something profitable.

29:59

You go out and do a hard day's work and it's like, yeah, there's something about that that you realize that I'm here for a reason, right?

30:08

I have a reason for existence. I've done something useful. But then, yeah,

30:13

I worked at one job one time and I was delivering appliances and they made us take all the appliances from one side of the warehouse to the other because they were teaching us how to use a dolly or whatever.

30:26

And so we moved them all from one side to the other and when we got to the other side, then they said, okay, go ahead and move them back. I remember, man, that was demoralizing.

30:35

I thought there was some - Well, we can't just leave all the appliances over here. They go over there. I mean, so it was like a completely pointless exercise.

30:44

You know, like you didn't, there was no point in you doing all that work to get them over here other than to learn or whatever.

30:50

But I mean, I remember that I was like, man, this is like Nazi kind of stuff here. You know, like. But, you know, you think about it though, a person like that, they give up on life.

31:02

You know, a man who's a provider for his household, he just curls up in a ball for a two -week period of time, loses his job.

31:08

His wife is stressed out, doesn't know what to do. You know, she's going out and getting employment in order to take care of the family because he can't deal with it.

31:16

He can't, you know, he's got his PTSD, he's got his depression, whatever. He's curling in a ball.

31:21

There's nothing more demoralizing than that. And these feelings of worthlessness, excessive or inappropriate guilt, it's like, yeah, that makes sense.

31:30

I understand why you would feel that way because you've rejected your reason for existence here. So the thing is, when you think about people who are getting this label, like if you train yourself in worthlessness, then you're gonna be more worthless.

31:45

Right? Like that's the way it's gonna work. If you give yourself over to worthlessness, you're gonna feel it, right? I mean, if you are, imagine yourself being like 33 years old or something like that, living in your parents' basement, you play video games all day long and you have no marriage prospects.

32:01

I mean, imagine what you're gonna feel when you do that, right? It may be fun to get to play your video games or whatever, but there's gonna be that excessive guilt and that shame and that condemnation and that despair because you know that you're made to do certain things.

32:14

And it's like, no woman's gonna, right, mine is gonna wanna marry you. You don't have a job, you don't have a plan. Your prospects are rapidly leaving, right?

32:23

Like they're all getting married, they're all leaving you behind. Like you haven't done anything with your life and you're so far behind at this point that what are you gonna do, right?

32:33

Like how are you gonna catch up because you've wasted so much of your life at this point and it's hard at this point to get it back.

32:41

You know, there's not the same opportunities for you anymore. And so like the idea is you're just, you're digging a pit and you're digging a pit.

32:48

So one irresponsible action after another irresponsible action after another irresponsible action.

32:54

Now you get a point where it's like, man, this isn't like a turn this around in two weeks kind of deal.

33:00

This is one of those things, it's like a turn it around in three years kind of thing, you know, four years kind of thing with 10 years kind of thing and then maybe not even then, right?

33:11

So you think about that, you think about people in these kinds of situations, they're just weighed down with guilt and shame and condemnation and then they have their list of excuses that, you know, it's like my parents didn't love me like they should and, you know, all this stuff and, you know, everyone was out to get me and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

33:30

You know, but everything that comes out of their mouth is just, it's the complaints. And, you know, what's amazing is, whenever I've said comments like this,

33:38

I'll have people who will basically say, yeah, I know a lot of people like that.

33:43

And, you know, I'm like that, I suffer from depression. It's like, no, you're not being, you're not the joyful person that I'm talking about.

33:53

All that comes out of your mouth is complaints. You just, you're not able to see it. You know, you don't see how much you complain, you know, and how much you fuss and how much you whine and all the entitlement is there present.

34:05

You don't, you don't see it, but people around you can see it. But, so yeah, when you think about what's actually happening in these kinds of situations, you have people who just, they've given themselves over to hopelessness and despair.

34:18

And, you know, some of it may not be their fault, like meaning, like, you know, people can be dealt a bad hand.

34:24

Sure, you know, like reality is God gives some people like worse providence than others, you know.

34:31

I mean, there's no sense in which a Christian can say, yeah, God did me wrong or something like that.

34:36

Whatever he's given you, it's for your good. You know, it may seem like a bad hand.

34:42

Job may seem like a bad hand for him, you know, but then in comparison to other people, yeah, it's a bad hand, but it's not a bad, in God's eyes, he has planned for it.

34:51

But, so yeah, yeah, it's one of those things where you look at what's actually happening in these kinds of scenarios.

35:01

And yeah, you don't have individuals who are seeing the world the way God sees it. They're not individuals who are giving thanks.

35:08

They're people who are digging their own holes, you know, with one irresponsible choice after another irresponsible choice that's culminating in just catastrophic give up, you know, mode.

35:20

Yeah, so, okay, so with all that being said, then let's say you've got the person, the person who's given themselves over to despair.

35:33

You've told them everything that you just told me and their response is to say, okay, fine,

35:40

I admit it. I'm not joyful. I'm not joyful the way that the

35:46

Bible says I need to be. I've given myself over to despair. What do

35:51

I do? I mean, how do I become joyful? And so what would your response be to that kind of person?

36:01

Yeah, so you think about the downward spiral to depression and I've described it as a series of irresponsible choices, basically.

36:11

And so at a certain point, you're like, you know, what's happening is it's like a spiral, right?

36:19

So you make an irresponsible choice. You feel the guilt, shame and condemnation and the despair and the hopelessness.

36:25

And then you make another irresponsible choice because it's like, why bother, right? Why bother?

36:30

And then you feel the guilt and shame and condemnation and worthlessness and hopelessness that comes from that.

36:36

It's like, well, why bother, right? And so pretty soon you're like 10 irresponsible choices down this spiral.

36:44

And so the idea then is what generally happens is once a person's like 10, 15, 20 irresponsible choices down their spiral of depression, the same cycle is happening, right?

36:56

So they feel all this guilt and shame and condemnation. But then the issue is at some point what they'll do is they'll try to make a responsible decision, right?

37:05

But and so then they'll try to do the right thing, but then they still feel all the guilt and the shame and condemnation because the issue is there are 20 bad choices in at this point, right?

37:16

And so they make an effort, like a brief effort to do the right thing in one area, right?

37:23

But then all that's happening is it's like, but then they're feeling all the guilt and shame and condemnation from the other 19 areas, right?

37:30

And then so then the conclusion is, well, why bother, why try, right? I tried that once. So it's like, yeah,

37:36

I tried to read my Bible once. I didn't help, you know, I still feel terrible. It's like, yeah, well, your house is a mess, you stink.

37:42

You haven't taken a shower in months. You haven't done anything, right? You're living - Your hair is all the way down to your shoulders.

37:48

Right, like you can't even see, you have to move. You smell like, you know, you're living in your parents' basement.

37:55

You know, you're 33 years old. You've wasted your college education. You're $20 ,000 in debt here.

38:01

And it's like, I tried to, the answer is, well, I tried to read my Bible once and it didn't fix anything. I prayed,

38:08

I prayed, and it didn't work. So it's like, I tried to pray it away. I tried to pray to the question away.

38:14

It's like, well, yeah, no, I understand you tried to pray, God, take all the bad feelings away and nothing happened.

38:20

Well, it's because you're still playing video games all day long and you're still living in your parents' basement and you're still too afraid to go to church, right?

38:27

Because you're too embarrassed and ashamed to go to church. And, you know, you're still like, you still have no career path. You still have no marriage prospects.

38:34

You still like, yeah, no, I get it, I get it, I get it. And it seems like there's probably, and it's probably safe to say that, you know, the request being made is one of those being made from, you know, like selfish desires, you know?

38:51

Well, it's like, hey, take it all away. Take all the bad feelings away. And I don't have to change anything that I'm doing.

38:57

And it's like, well, that isn't the way it works. So the issue is how do you dig yourself out of it? Well, you're gonna dig yourself out of it, one responsible choice after another responsible choice made in faith and repentance.

39:09

Like that's how you're gonna dig yourself out of it, trusting in the promises of God on your behalf. So like what you do at that point is you say, hey,

39:15

I'm gonna take my first responsible step and I'm gonna take that first responsible step and I'm gonna make a habit of it, right?

39:23

And I'm gonna confess, like, so, you know, for instance, you haven't been to church in four years because you're, whatever, you know, maybe start there.

39:30

Just say, hey, I'm gonna go to church. I'm gonna be faithful to go to church and I'm gonna ask God to forgive me for not going to church.

39:35

And I'm gonna trust in what Jesus did, dying on the cross for me, is the, you know, there's no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

39:41

I made a mess of my life. I can't fix it all overnight. You know, if it took me 10 years getting in this mess, it may take me 10 years to get out of this mess.

39:48

You know, I can't fix everything instantaneously, but you can take, you can make one step of faithfulness, right?

39:55

So you can say, hey, I'm gonna start reading my Bible and, you know, I'm gonna be faithful to that. And then you can say,

40:00

I'm gonna start going to church, right? And then you're gonna say, I'm gonna start looking for a job. You know, and pretty soon what's gonna happen is you make one step of faithfulness after another step of faithfulness after another step of faithfulness.

40:11

And every time that guilt and shame and condemnation comes, you deal with it the way the Bible describes you, you confess your sins to God, you trust that God's faithful just to forgive you your sins, but you're not making your peace with it.

40:23

You know, pretty soon you're out of it. Do you see what I'm saying? You've, by God's help with the power of the spirit, you've reversed that spiral, right?

40:35

You're repenting. You're repenting one step at a time, right? And you can't repent to everything all at once.

40:41

You know, it's not like, it doesn't work like that. You know, you can't just like, hey, I'm gonna be perfect now, you know?

40:47

Yeah, if I'm gonna be perfect, that's gonna be the whole solution. No, you trust in what Jesus has done, but you take one responsible step after another responsible step, and you learn to put off these bad habits and put on these new habits, and pretty soon your life is different.

41:00

But like in every single situation, you know, the Bible says rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven.

41:07

Like there's, I'm gonna thank God for the little stuff, right? So as you're taking these responsible steps, you're thanking

41:14

God for all of his blessings, for not giving up on you, for sending Jesus to die on you. You're training your heart in thankfulness instead of in hopelessness and despair.

41:22

Like there's an answer to this. Like it may not be, you know, and what most people want is they just want their life to be fixed, right?

41:29

CBT Right. JG Like they're not thinking about like, I want to fix my relationship with God. That what they want is like all the problems, like the presenting problems to be resolved, right?

41:41

So now like you have a good job, you know, you reversed all the damage. You may not reverse it all, but you can be faithful, and there's nothing that can stop you in the moment from honoring the

41:52

Lord now, right? CBT Right. JG And so God's a forgiving God who delights to forgive people, and there's a path out of this for sure.

41:58

CBT Yeah, and it really is amazing. I mean, how much easier it becomes to deal with everything when you really focus on trying to give thanks all the time and everything, you know?

42:16

And I think, you know, I think I've shared the story before, but I know I've shared it with you, but I don't know.

42:23

I feel like I've shared it on the podcast before, but, you know, there was a time where I was spending time with a bunch of people from our church, and, you know, it was,

42:39

I think my wife was going through our first pregnancy, and it was extremely hard on her physically.

42:48

And so I was going to a lot of the extra things the church was doing by myself while she rested so that she could be there for the main things.

42:59

And, you know, all of the people in our church, I mean, some of them were just getting married, and some of them were moving into new homes, and they just had all this stuff going on.

43:11

It was great. It was all great news. I mean, there was almost like nothing bad happening at all.

43:18

It was pretty amazing. And, you know, my first response was to, I remember sitting there vividly.

43:25

I remember where I was sitting and thinking to myself, this is so unfair.

43:32

And being, like, angry that everyone else was having all these good things happen to them.

43:40

And then, you know, I was in the situation where my wife is suffering, and, you know,

43:46

I can't have her with me the same way everyone else has their spouse with them.

43:53

And so I was just thinking about myself and all the ways in which I wasn't getting everything that I wanted.

43:59

And then there was a moment where when I was sitting there, I'm thinking all that in my head, and there's this moment where I was just like, what am

44:09

I doing? What's the matter with me? You know, like, listen to all of this.

44:15

I mean, people are getting married. People are moving into homes. They're, you know, they're having all these awesome blessings that they're receiving from God.

44:26

And my response is not to praise God for his generosity, for his provision, for the gifts that he has bestowed on the people in our church.

44:37

My response was to focus on myself and be angry and be bitter and be envious.

44:43

But here's the thing, the moment that I realized that, and I repented of that, and I asked

44:49

God to forgive me and help me to be thankful, it was just like a switch flipped in me.

44:56

And all of a sudden, I was thinking more rightly about it, you know, giving thanks to God, realizing that this was truly, you know, grace from God, it was mercy, it was provision, all these things.

45:10

And it was that fast. Now, does that mean it'll be that fast for everyone, especially if they've been training themselves to be envious and lack gratitude and all of that for 10, 20 years?

45:23

Not necessarily, but I mean, I think that's just an example of God's mercy towards us, you know, when we repent of these things and we start thinking, how do

45:35

I give thanks in this situation? There's something, there's plenty to give thanks for in this situation.

45:42

What is it? And let me do it, you know? And that really does change the way that you look at life.

45:49

And honestly, it just makes it so much easier. It's way easier when you think that way, as opposed to the envy route, the anger route, the bitterness route, all of that.

46:03

And so, that lines up exactly with what you're saying.

46:08

JARED I mean, there's always going to be someone who has more than you. So, it's amazing yet to see all the generational stuff here.

46:16

I mean, I think a lot of, there's a lot of this directed towards boomers at this point where, you know, millennials and down are looking at the economy and saying, hey, we can't even afford a home and all this kind of stuff.

46:30

And it's like, yeah, I mean, you know, I don't really know what to tell you because my parents didn't buy their first home until, my parents didn't buy their first home until we were all almost grad, like where we were all graduated basically, except for like the last sibling or so.

46:50

So, their life at the very beginning was hard. It was very different. And so, I mean, I think a lot of what's happening with these kinds of discussions is that you have people who are looking at their parents' life now and they're saying, hey,

47:01

I want everything that they had right now, right? I want the same standard of living, same kind of house filled with the same kind of stuff.

47:09

And it's just like, yeah, but my parents didn't get that until they were about to grow up.

47:14

I mean, until all the kids were basically grown up at that point. So, I don't know.

47:19

I mean, life is hard, man. And I think that there's some unique problems that are happening right now that are making things kind of crazy, out of control, inflation, everything else.

47:30

I'm not denying those things, but I also have a brain. I do remember past generations. I do remember what their lives were like.

47:37

And you can look at the best case scenario with people who've made the best decisions and compare them to people who aren't making wonderful decisions right now and say, hey, yeah, it's so different.

47:49

But I mean, life is life and there's always gonna be trials. And you just take them as they go, just allow

47:56

God to, just not that you allow God to do anything, but just look at what

48:03

God's doing and trust Him, trust Him. He knows what He's doing. So, there's always calls for thanksgiving if you want to be more like Him, for sure.

48:13

Well, I think that's a good place for us to wrap up the conversation on. So, thank you, Tim, for answering all my questions related to that topic.

48:22

And hopefully this has been an episode that leads people to an understanding that there is hope when it comes to dealing with this subject.

48:35

And it's not just meant to be despair like the rest of the world will try and lie to you and deceive you and into thinking it is like, hey, this is just who you are.

48:44

You've got the label, there's no way out of it. Take the medication for 30 years, even though it doesn't work.

48:52

And just, sorry about it. This is just who you are and this is how you'll always be.

48:58

It doesn't have to be that way. The Bible gives answers to these kinds of things. We just have to humble ourselves, recognize that we're sinful, repent of that sin, and trust in God, giving thanks to Him.

49:10

And He really can deliver you from it. He truly can. If you believe that,

49:16

He can. And so, hopefully that is a message of hope for you guys.

49:23

And it certainly is a message of hope, but we hope that you see that and you trust that and you follow that through the power of the

49:35

Spirit, obviously. So, we thank you guys for listening to us, for supporting us week in and week out and interacting with us online through the polls that we're running.

49:45

We kind of took a break there for a minute while Tim was out of town. And now we're getting back into the swing of things.

49:51

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49:58

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50:05

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50:12

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50:23

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50:28

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50:46

We certainly appreciate that support. And until the next episode, we'll see. This has been another episode of Bible Bashed.

50:55

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51:07

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51:15

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