Should You Go to A Church That Blindly Followed The CDC’s Guidelines?

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Welcome to Bible Bash, where we aim to equip the saints for the works of ministry by answering the questions you're not allowed to ask.

01:38

We're your hosts, Harrison Kerrig and Pastor Tim Mullett, and today we'll seek to answer the age -old question, should you go to a church that blindly followed the

01:46

CDC's guidelines? Now, for those of you who are unaware, the CDC has actually updated their guidelines for COVID -19 and how people should interact with the rest of society, basically, in light of COVID -19 being around for so long.

02:07

This is sort of a strange subject to talk about in this way, just because for me personally,

02:16

I mean, for the last at least two years, my life has basically been normal.

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I haven't really followed the guidelines that the CDC has been putting out, the things that they've been saying that we should do.

02:31

I haven't been wearing a mask. I didn't get a vaccination. I haven't been social distancing.

02:39

So my life has been normal, and I haven't really gotten any sicker than I normally would.

02:48

But apparently, you know, I mean, you think about, like, we're in one part of the country. There's plenty of other parts of the country that still are very much following these guidelines to the

03:01

T, which it's a little, like, it's hard to even, like, think about in some ways the way that one part of the country can be so different from another, because where we are,

03:14

Tim, I mean, I don't know that I really see very many people at all who are actively following the guidelines all the time.

03:23

I mean, are you seeing people who are, like, masking up, and they're always trying to social distance and whatnot?

03:30

Yeah, I mean, you know, if you see someone right now who is masking up, you know, where we're living, it generally does come across as pretty odd at this point.

03:40

So, you know, there are people who are still doing that sort of thing, but then, for the most part, in normal, you know, day -to -day lives, that's a pretty odd kind of phenomenon.

03:50

And, you know, as you said, you know, I think, you know, my family, we wore masks for, you know, begrudgingly for the first couple months maybe, but then, you know, pretty soon you just start to feel like a slave, like you're being forced to wear a

04:06

Star of David or something like that. And so we stopped doing that kind of thing. And I think we were one of the few oddballs, you know, the first few months in who just refused to play ball with that kind of thing for a while.

04:20

Right. And I think it's been a while since – I don't know when the general population at this point – where we're at stopped wearing masks.

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But I think when it came to that second round of, you know, possible stricter measures, people – once they relaxed the requirements at the state level and things like that, people just – by and large, most of them, it was like 50 % for a while weren't wearing masks and that kind of stuff.

04:53

And then, you know, pretty soon it just – no one is doing it really except for a few. And so now it's an odd kind of sight in general.

05:00

Yeah, it's definitely weird for us to see. I mean, I don't think in any single day this month

05:07

I've seen more than two people on that day who were wearing masks. I saw a girl at Walmart wearing a mask, and then her shirt said,

05:18

Trust God and, you know, don't stress. And I just got a kick out of it. So I thought, that's defiant irony, you know.

05:29

That's pretty good. You should have taken a picture of that, man. I did, but, you know,

05:35

I don't know if you end up in jail for doing something like that at this point, you know, in our country. We're so sensitive towards everything.

05:41

That's really funny. Well, like I said, the guidelines for COVID -19, they've been updated again.

05:49

I'm not sure exactly on the date that they were officially updated, but the article that I'm looking at here from CNN is dated

05:58

August 11th, 2022. So a little over a week ago, basically, is when the article came out.

06:07

And I assume that was pretty quickly after the guidelines themselves came out. And so I wanted to take a second and just look at this article that's titled

06:17

CDC Ends Recommendations for Social Distancing and Quarantine for COVID -19

06:23

Control. That's an interesting word, recommendations. I mean, for a long time, they basically weren't recommendations, right?

06:33

Yeah, no one seems to view them as recommendations. I mean, even churches consider them to be absolute, you know, tyrannical orders from on high.

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So much so that if you don't follow their recommendations, you're disobeying Romans 13 and dishonoring

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God. So a lot of people haven't understood that these are simply recommendations and they're not laws that are put into effect by a legitimate government authority at that point.

07:02

Right. Now the article itself, let's see if I can find it. The U .S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention says the nation should move away from restrictive measures such as quarantines and social distancing and focus on reducing severe disease for COVID -19.

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In new guidelines released Thursday, the agency no longer recommends staying at least six feet away from other people to reduce the risk of exposure, a shift from guidance that had been in place since the early days of the pandemic.

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And then I think later on here, they list out. So they're getting rid of the social, the standing six feet away from other people.

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And I think down here, the, okay, here. The new CDC guidelines say contact tracing, another hallmark during the pandemic, should be limited to hospitals and certain high risk group living situations such as nursing homes.

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So we're getting rid of the six feet thing. We're getting rid of contact tracing, barring high risk groups and hospitals.

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And then the new guidance also does not advise quarantining people who've been exposed to COVID -19 but are not infected.

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So now you don't have to quarantine if you've been around someone who had

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COVID but you aren't testing positive. But the guidance does keep some measures the same.

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It encourages testing for people with symptoms and their close contact. So the

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CDC is still recommending people test. And it also says people who test positive should stay home for at least five days and wear a mask around others for 10 days.

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It also continues to recommend that people wear masks indoors in about half the country.

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So they're still recommending people test and they're still recommending masking as long as that person has actually tested, or I'm sorry, they're encouraging testing but then they're encouraging quarantining as well as wearing a mask for 10 days if you did test positive.

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The new guidelines also tailor advice on isolation for people who became very sick from COVID -19.

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People with moderate symptoms such as shortness of breath and those who are hospitalized should stay home for at least 10 days.

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People with compromised immune systems should now talk to their doctor about ending their isolation after an infection.

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And then finally, there's new advice on what to do if your COVID -19 symptoms rebound too.

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If you end isolation and your COVID -19 symptoms get worse, you should start isolation over again and see your doctor.

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So basically you've got changes in terms of social distancing. You've got changes in terms of contact tracing, changes in terms of testing and quarantining where they're basically rolling a lot of that stuff back.

10:17

And then there's a really interesting section here that I wanted to read and Tim just sort of get some of your commentary on and it's the section titled trying to meet people where they are.

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And it says, the changes are an acknowledgement that SARS COVID -19 may be with us for the long haul.

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They aim to help people live their lives around COVID -19 with minimal disruptions to work and school.

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They are also more risk -based advising people who are at higher risk for severe illness to take more personal precautions than others.

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And then here's a quote that says, I think they just overall come into alignment with what people are doing anyway, says

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Dr. Peter Chen Hong, an infectious disease specialist at the University of California at San Francisco.

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Chen Hong thinks some states like California will continue to go beyond the CDC's guidelines and their own recommendations.

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But by and large, he thinks these reflect the prevailing attitudes toward the pandemic. He sees it as a move by the

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CDC to try to regain the public's trust. And then here's a really interesting -

11:24

Yeah, good luck with that. Yeah, yeah, I mean, I mean, it's been two years of you, like,

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I mean, that whole recommendations thing even is, like, they're called recommendations, right?

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But then they're treated almost as law, right? And so you have stuff like that that's been going on for two years and then, you know, people are basically starting to say like, hey, maybe this just isn't as crazy as we all thought.

11:56

Well, what's amazing about it is if these are actually recommendations that are being made and they're supposed to be made based on objective science, you know, you're telling us, you know, in your rationale for the new recommendations that you're trying to, you know, bring your recommendations in line with what people are actually doing at the moment.

12:15

And that should tell you that this isn't about anything objective at that point. This is a PR campaign to try to regain public trust and, you know, good luck with that.

12:24

Right, yeah. I mean, it's just, you spent years doing it one way and it's starting to backfire.

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And, you know, I think it's going to take a long, I mean, if they ever get to where most people trust them again,

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I think it's going to take a very long time. But looking back at this article,

12:43

I thought this was really interesting. A recent survey from the Annenberg Public Policy Center shows that most

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Americans, 54%, are no longer masking indoors and about 4 in 10 say they fully returned to their pre -pandemic routines, up from 16%.

13:02

Yeah, it's amazing that it's that. I know. I can't even fathom that because in our location, you know, it's overwhelmingly, it's like 98 % of people, 99 % of people are not wearing masks in regular everyday life.

13:16

Right. I mean, I guess that just tells you a little bit about where we're at because if, you know, it's only 50 % of the country is still not wearing masks.

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It's like, what kind of crazy country are we living in right now? Right. Here's another quote from Chen Hong.

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It says, what the CDC is, in my opinion, trying to do, they're trying to still be relevant and maybe when they say something, people will listen to them instead of being completely 180 degrees away from what behavior is anyway.

13:47

So, the article goes on a little more with a few quotes from some other doctors and specialists that are saying similar things.

13:59

You know, basically, they're providing commentary that says, you know, in their opinion, the

14:07

CDC is basically just trying to regarner trust with the

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American people by changing their guidelines. Basically, what they're saying is, hey, look, everyone's already kind of going back to normal anyways and the

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CDC is trying to change their guidelines to fit within that, right?

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It's sort of like, you know, if you're the kid on the playground and you've been bossing everybody around and then a few of the kids start not listening to you, right?

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And then some other kids start not listening to you as well and then all of a sudden, you say something and no one's really doing it anymore.

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So, then you try and modify what you say into what everyone else is already doing anyways as an attempt to try and regain some of that authority that you had momentarily and that's what it seems like to me.

15:02

That's a common parenting strategy that I use, you know, particularly with our babies when they're infants. You know,

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I'll tell them to do something and they won't do that and then I'll just readjust my instruction to tell them just to do what they're currently doing just so I can feel better about myself.

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But, you know, it's like, you know, come here, son, you know, and they just stare at you. It's like, okay, never mind, just stare at me, you know.

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Good job. Good job, kid, you know. But that, I mean, the whole thing about that is,

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I mean, that's such a joke about it. It's like if this is, if, I thought you were supposed to be giving us objective, you know, recommendations that are based on the science, not just based on public opinion, right?

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So if all that you're doing now is a PR campaign, and if all you're doing is trying to, you know, regain trust by telling us what we want to hear, like that's, you know, that just tells us what we've known about you the whole time, that this is all, you know, this is all a bunch of nonsense as far as that goes.

16:07

And we can't believe anything that's actually coming out of your mouth because you're the kind of person who would literally, you know, how do you believe the kind of person who is just going to tell you what you want to hear?

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You know, if that'll help gain them some popularity points, at some point you just realize it's just a political game.

16:22

Another score for the conspiracy theorist, huh? That's right, man. Now, that's, the point of the episode is not to simply only, you know, bash the

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CDC. The title question, Tim, was to ask, specifically as it relates to churches,

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I think one of the most important things as a Christian is the involvement in the local church.

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I mean, our church right now is going through a short series based on Acts 2 that is essentially laying out what the local church should look like in a lot of ways and how crucial it is that individual

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Christians be involved in the local church, right? And so it's kind of like a foundational aspect of being a

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Christian. You can't, like, I know some, it's popular to say nowadays that, you know,

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I can be a Christian on my own, I don't need the church or whatever, but that's just totally unbiblical and frankly pretty stupid.

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I tried to be that way for a little bit and it was terrible. I hated it. And you miss out on so many blessings.

17:42

Go ahead, what were you going to say? I mean, yeah, Jesus says that, you know, He loved the church and He gave Himself up for it.

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You know, husbands are supposed to love their wives like Christ did and Christ loved the church so much that He died for it and if we, you know, if we say that we have love for Him and we don't love our brother, we're essentially liars and the truth is not in us.

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So there's no such thing as just this, you know, lone ranger Christian out there who, you know, basically it's just Him and God and no one else.

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Like if we're the type of individuals who say we don't need the church and we don't love the church, then we're providing ample evidence to suggest that the

18:18

Spirit of God is actually not residing in us at all. And there's warning passages in Hebrews that would tell us that we are not to forsake the assembly of the saints together as is the habit of some and, you know, those are in the midst of warning passages that, you know, tell us that, you know, the individuals, like even in 1

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John, who go out from us, they go out from us because they're not of us and they leave that it might be shown that they're not of us.

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So there isn't any category for, you know, that kind of Christian who just sits there and worships

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God by himself in nature, you know, that kind of person has just revealed himself to be an apostate essentially.

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And so basically all of that to say being a part, being involved in the local church is crucially important for any

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Christian, right? And so that stands to reason that you have to actually find a good local church.

19:13

Now the question itself for this episode is should you go to a church that blindly followed the

19:20

CDC's guidelines as it relates to COVID -19? So I'm sure there's plenty of people who are listening right now who, you know, obviously, you know, every church had some kind of response to COVID -19 and so people need to ask them themselves, well, how should

19:35

I view my church? How should I view my church in light of what they did in response to COVID -19?

19:43

And then I'm sure there are plenty of people who are looking for a church home right now and they might have,

19:49

I don't, this probably isn't a popular thing to do, but they might have a list of things that they're looking for in a church that are actually, hopefully they're biblical and not just, you know, do they have, do they have a coffee station and do they play the coolest new songs?

20:10

Most people looking for a church, they probably have that on their list. Right, right. That it has, you know, a coffee shop within it and that kind of things and so, yeah.

20:21

Unfortunately, that's very common, but should they, do you think that they should add something to their list that says, you know, basically, like, how did this church respond to COVID -19?

20:36

I mean, if I were looking for a church, that would be one of the, you know, first things that I would be looking for.

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Now, when I say it's one of the first things I'm looking for, I'm not trying to suggest that that is the chief qualification that I would look for in a church as if it's the most important, but,

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I mean, you know, there's a filter that I would run any church through in attempting to find, you know, what is a biblical or what is a faithful church, but then among, you know, options, you know, once you narrow down your list to, you know, certain kind of denominational preferences and, or, not preferences, certain denominational convictions and certain doctrinal convictions and once you run it through that whole test and when you get to the very end of it, certainly, you know, one of the new kind of things that I would be looking for would be

21:24

I would be looking for the kind of church that, I'd want to know how they handled the pandemic, I'd want to know how they would handle it in the future, you know, and so, it wouldn't be on my list that they would have to have responded to the pandemic perfectly, but I would want to know if they're the kind of people who are able to read the times that they live in, like the men of Issachar, who, you know, essentially had understandings of the times and knew what they ought to do.

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I'd want to know, like are these men who are going to cave and bow down to cultural pressure, are they able to see the obvious, have the discernment necessary to know the current issues of the day and what faithfulness looks like in the midst of, you know, massive cultural pressure.

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I'd want to know if there are individuals who have backbone and who have a spine and who are willing to stand against a culture that seems to be hostile to everything that God requires.

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I'd want to know if they were willing to suffer for the name of Jesus. I mean, I think I saw a quote from Steve Lawson on Twitter at some point that basically said, you know, the problem with preachers nowadays is that no one wants to kill them.

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And so, I'd want to know that, you know, if I were looking for a place to go,

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I'd want to know that whoever these men are that are responsible for my souls, I'd want to know that they, you know, were able to properly understand where we're at and have the courage and conviction necessary to say no to a government which is tyrannical and, you know, is overreaching in their authority.

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You know, I mean, I know for our church personally there was a point where our governor was recommending essentially that, well, you know, basically saying that the time for churches to go back to meeting was not yet, but, you know, she couldn't do without her haircuts and everything else.

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And so it was time for the salons to open up but not yet for the churches. And, you know, for us that was a cue to say that this is nuts.

23:34

Yeah, like, this is clearly too far. This is clearly, like, we have a different set of priorities and we have a different set of values than you have.

23:42

And so, you know, I wouldn't necessarily, you know, I think looking back, like hindsight is 2020 and the very beginning of this, you know, fake pandemic, one of the things that we were told,

23:56

I mean, we were told that millions of people were going to be dead, like, very soon and it was pretty extreme and pretty, you know, nothing like that has ever happened in the history of, like, most of our lives.

24:07

And so this is a new kind of scenario where the NBA is shutting down and, like, what in the world is happening?

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And, you know, a lot of people had to think about what their theology of a pandemic is. But, you know, if you're still at a church that has just been blindly following the

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CDC's guidelines the whole time, I would be very concerned about putting myself under your spiritual authority.

24:31

If you're that kind of person who is unable to mitigate even the slightest amount of risk and who really is not able to think for yourself in any clear way and just basically just blindly follows anything that you're told by anyone who makes an authoritative proclamation,

24:45

I wouldn't, I would certainly not feel safe being under you as an authority as far as that's concerned.

24:53

So, should you go to a church that blindly followed the CDC's guidelines as it relates to COVID -19?

24:59

Your answer would be no, don't go to that church. Well, yeah, I mean, if the question is is that something you should be looking for as you're doing the interview process,

25:08

I would say that's definitely something that I would be looking for. And now, if the question is if you're currently already a member of a church that has blindly followed the

25:17

CDC guidelines the whole time, should you leave that church? And I would say that, you know,

25:23

I mean, if you're, like, if you're still going to a church and, you know, it's in California and they're going above and beyond the

25:29

CDC requirements, they're still doing the masking and the social distancing and everything else, I just,

25:34

I don't know how you can have confidence in those men to, you know, be the kind of men who are going to lead you into faithfulness.

25:42

You know, I don't, I don't understand how you can at that point. Particularly when, with some of the issues that are involved, you know, if, like, there's so many biblical commands in the

25:53

Bible that, you know, you have to work through and sort through and, you know, all these one another commands and you're still just pretending like all of your fellow church members are, you know, plague victims even though they're healthy and, you know, you're following the leadership of individuals who are being held captive by the fear of death and unable to mitigate even the smallest amount of risk.

26:17

I mean, I would be concerned about that. And I would say that, you know, like, taken in isolation, that's probably just symptomatic of the kind of place that you're actually at.

26:27

You know, it's just symptomatic of the kind of people that you're actually probably following at that point.

26:33

Meaning, like, you know, I think we're living in a culture right now that is, obviously, increasingly hostile to everything that Christians are to believe and everything that the

26:46

Bible actually says. And if that's, like, if you have leaders who still haven't taken a stand at any point, you know, this far in, you know, with all the information that we have right now,

26:59

I don't know how you could do that, you know, personally. But, so, I would say you probably should've left a long time ago.

27:09

I mean, you probably should've left a long time ago. And if you're still holding out, you know, a hope or something, I think that whatever hope there is that these guys have any, you know, small measure of courage should've been dashed on the rocks, you know, a year ago or so.

27:23

But, that would be me. So, basically, it's an issue of, you know, leadership that is willing to risk, is willing to risk their people, right, in a certain sense.

27:39

Like, basically... You're dating a woman, right? Or you're... Just pretend you're a woman, you know, dating a man.

27:47

Or something like that. And, you know, just don't get too into the analogy there.

27:53

But just... don't worry, man. Just imagine it for a second.

27:59

Like, you're, like, the lady dating the man and, like, there's a couple of street thugs who come by and start waving a gun at you or something.

28:07

And then, the guy, like, pulls you in front of him in order to shield himself from the gun line of sight.

28:13

I mean, if that's not a deal -breaker, you know, if that's not, like, if that's not... doesn't tell you everything that you need to know, then

28:21

I don't know what will. You know, like, that... But that's essentially, like, if you've been following...

28:36

They're not going to take care of you, basically, right? They're not going to fulfill the roles and the responsibilities that have been assigned to them by God through the scriptures.

28:47

Instead, they're going to hold you out in front of the thugs and say, please, don't hurt me.

28:54

I mean, basically, they're just things that leaders can do that can totally destroy all confidence that you have.

29:02

You know, and I would just make the modest, you know, humble, nuanced, you know, wisdom, gracious statement just to say that if they've been finally following it the whole time, you should probably have had a vote of no confidence sent in them a long time ago.

29:18

Go ahead. Even though, like, I mean, we're talking about, you know, this isn't like a, like, hey, people just randomly decided, right?

29:28

It's like a, hey, we're doing what the government told us to do.

29:34

And even, you know, the government's going as far as to say, like, we will punish people who do not follow these guidelines, right?

29:43

So, like, you saw in California. If you're a Jew in the home, you know, and of one of your

29:52

German friends, right? Uh -huh. Yeah. And when the Nazis come along and ask, you know, like, let's say that you're, like, going from house to house, hiding from house to house in Nazi Germany or something like that.

30:06

And, you know, the Nazis come, you know, and you're not at that house in particular, but you rotate and that kind of thing.

30:13

And, you know, the first family that they come upon and they ask, you know, are you harboring

30:19

Jews? They're like, yeah, we have Jews, you know? And they say, and they show you where they are. I mean, I wouldn't want to go back to that place, you know?

30:25

Right. That would tell me what I need to know, you know what I mean? That would tell me that, like, these guys are, you know, they're going to sell me out first chance we got here, you know?

30:35

For a moment of safety. For a moment of safety. So, I mean, the fact that it's being told, like, something, like, immoral is being told to you by a higher authority is neither here nor there.

30:45

I mean, you're, you know, you want to go to a church that is under the authority of God, and you want to have pastors who are willing to say no to a hostile and secular government, and say no to the point where they're willing to die for the sake of their faith.

31:01

I mean, that's what you want, you know? Particularly when you're entering into dark days as a church, you want to know that your elders are not just spineless cowards who are going to, you know, when the government says jump, they're going to say how high, no matter what that is, you want to know that there's something in them that says we must obey

31:20

God rather than men. And if there's, like, if this isn't a test case scenario for more significant things,

31:27

I don't know what actually is. So, if this isn't, go ahead. No, no, finish what you were going to say first.

31:33

Well, I just, it just, if this isn't a test case scenario to show whether or not there are men who are willing to say no,

31:40

I mean, I mean, for as long as I can remember, you know, going to seminary, you know, this kind of question was always brought up.

31:47

It was always brought up in classes that I went to. You know, at what point should Christians disobey the government?

31:54

And the answers that my seminary professors universally gave at that point when it came up, and it came up multiple times, was, you know, if the government tells you to sin, and so, like, well, what would be examples of that?

32:05

Well, you know, like, if they told you you couldn't evangelize, or if you couldn't go to church, right? It's so, we have an entire, you know, country full of people who got to live out that test case scenario, and, you know, they were being told by the government that they couldn't go to church, and, you know, the vast majority of churches, they not only, like, like, caved in a prudential way at first, like, just because, you know, like, if there's a flood coming to your church, you know, everyone has a category for saying, like, we should flee, right?

32:45

Like, you know, like, everyone has that kind of category. We all know what happens when a flood comes.

32:51

Yeah, Jesus gives you that kind of category in the Gospels. I mean, he says, essentially, you know, when you see

32:56

Jerusalem surrounded by armies, you know, and you pray that your flight is not, you know, in winter or on a

33:01

Sabbath and everything else, but, like, you do need to run, you know, you do need to run. So, Jesus does give, like, this category of, if you're faced with certain death, you run.

33:11

And so, we're being told by people at the beginning of the pandemic that we're facing this overwhelming black plague level death, and so, you know, that's different.

33:21

But, that's a different kind of scenario. But then, when you find out that that's not what's actually happening, and then you're looking at a government that is basically just forcing you in an irrational way to, or attempting to force you to close your doors upon threat of litigation, seizing their property and everything else, at some point, you want to know that, like, well, at some point, it should dawn on you, you are in that scenario that the seminary, you know, students are asking, and at some point, you want to know, like, that you're actually going to follow through with it.

33:55

You're not just the type of man who's going to roll over at that point. Yeah. So, basically, there's a category for a certain death, but then, it got to a certain point where it's like, okay, obviously, whatever's going on here is not like a flood coming, right?

34:11

Or armies surrounding our city and they're going to burn it down. Right? I mean, it should have been relatively obvious fairly quickly that that's not exactly what was happening.

34:21

You know, I mean, it was pretty obvious to me, like, fairly quickly that, you know, whatever is being said seems to be lies because I'm just looking around with my eyes and the evidence that my eyes are seeing is very different than what is being communicated.

34:37

And so, I mean, I still don't know anyone who's died of the pandemic, you know, and that's, like, that's mind -boggling that we did everything that we did and yet,

34:47

I know no one who's died of this thing. You know, and so, like, that's just, I don't even have a category for that.

34:54

But even if I did know one person who died of it, like, that wouldn't change anything. Like, we're, when you're talking about, like, black plague level, you know, civilization events, things like that,

35:04

I mean, like, that's, like, half of Europe dying, you know, and that's nothing like this. That's nothing like this.

35:10

And so, we should have known very quickly that that's not what we're talking about. Right, yeah, especially when they started, you know, putting numbers out about, like, the survivability rate being, like, 99 point, what was it?

35:24

99 .98%. Yeah, 98%. That's with exaggerated statistics, even, you know, and, like, that's, like, you take those numbers, and those are numbers with, like, statistics that literally make no sense.

35:37

And, I mean, you know it's a joke when, you know, everyone can go to a BLM rally during that time. Yeah. Like, you can go to a

35:44

BLM. You're immune, then. You didn't know that, Tim? That's just, I'm, Tim, that's just science. Come on.

35:49

Well, the COVID stays away from, you know, the BLM rallies. You have a magical protection at that point.

35:56

But, I mean, like, you know, if you didn't know during the Summer of Love when all these riots are happening, that this was not real, like,

36:04

I mean, you had, you know, famous church pastors who, you know, were, I mean, I think like Jonathan Lehman, Nine Marks, who are going to BLM rallies and, you know, shaming people for meeting at church.

36:16

And you, like, at that point, you should realize that this is not what they're saying. If you couldn't figure it out before, when you see the media's reaction to, like, all the

36:24

BLM rallies and the George Floyd and all that, like, and you see them reacting to churches and trying to shut churches down and, like, prevent churches from being able to sing, you know, without, go to churches without their mask, you should have realized that this is not, like, that something fishy has happened.

36:43

And if, and for the kind of shepherd who couldn't figure that out and still can't figure that out and still is just, you know, following the

36:51

CDC, whatever they said. I mean, I know that you read that article and you took the time to read it, read it before Harrison, but, you know, as you're reading the new recommendations of the

36:59

CDC, my experience of listening to it was kind of like, like a Charlie Brown episode, you know, where it's just like, you know, like I just,

37:08

I'm just, you know, it's just like, no, don't care. Don't, you know, I could literally care less.

37:15

I am so disinterested in those recommendations to the point where, you know, they, it's almost impossible for me to even process what they're saying at this point.

37:22

Well, that's what, that's what I was trying to, you know, say at the beginning is it's just so strange to even read based on where we live because it's like,

37:31

I mean, we're basically the embodiment of what that article, of what the, you know, the, the people they quoted that I read towards the end were saying, right?

37:42

We were, I mean, we're the people who are like, yeah, we're already doing that. We don't care that you say mask up, right?

37:49

We don't, we don't care that you say stand six feet. I, I, I see the, you know, I'll go into a store and see the stickers on the, on the floor.

37:56

They're like stand here. You know, this is six feet away from the next person in line or whatever. And I just kind of roll my eyes at them and then stand wherever I want to stand, you know, like wherever the line is, is like,

38:06

I'll just stand right behind that person and then they don't like, you know, look behind me and give me some mean look like I'm, you know, threatening their safety.

38:14

It's just like, that's what you do, right? You just, yeah. I mean, at the beginning of the pandemic, you know, at the beginning of it when,

38:23

I mean, I remember I had to go to Lowe's and there's a bunch of people standing outside of Lowe's in a line and they're waiting to be let into Lowe's.

38:33

Okay. they're, because there's always so many people who could go in at a time, you know, in order to keep the place safe but they're all standing there outside and I, and you know,

38:45

I, I didn't know why they were standing outside. I just started walking towards the door and then everyone's just panicking and waving at me and saying, you know, what are you doing?

38:54

What are you doing? I'm like, I'm trying to get a lawnmower blade or something like that, you know, like what, what, what, you know, we're not allowed to do that, you know, it's like, what do you mean?

39:04

You know, we all have to stand in line and I mean, it's just strains like the imagination, like how crazy that actually was and then, you know, it made my brain hurt to the thought of you walking into a restaurant and you're told that you have to wear a mask as you walk into a restaurant and then you're allowed to sit down and once you sit down, you can take that mask off.

39:25

I mean, this is just crazy town. that's, well, that's just science, Tim. I mean, it's just science.

39:32

I don't know what else to tell you other than it's just science, Tim. Yeah, well, if you have a baby and your baby, you know, uses the restroom in his diaper, you can put that mask on and you can tell that, you know, those airborne particles, they don't care too much about that mask.

39:53

But, no, I mean, it's crazy, man. I just, I don't know how you follow the kind of person who is just, like,

40:01

I just don't know how you do that. Personally, I don't know how you follow the kind of person that has arranged their life in such a way that it makes sense to comprehensively and pervasively lie to people in order to make them feel better.

40:16

You know, and like, the problem is that this is just not, this is not just about, like, some response to the pandemic.

40:21

This is about, like, the kind of character needed to, like, interact with the world in a helpful way.

40:30

I mean, these same pastors, you know, they're the same kind of pastors who essentially will counsel you week in and week out to lie to your wife in order to keep her happy.

40:38

You know, that's, they're the same kind of people, like, who will do that if they're willing to, like, encourage you to lie to everyone around you.

40:45

And it's just like, I don't, I just don't know how you follow someone like that. I don't, like, who is just going to sit there and say, yeah, you know, you can put a piece of cloth over your face and that's going to help to reduce the spread of some sort of airborne virus.

41:01

Like, we're just playing crazy town at that point and I don't know what to say to you. And I would like to follow someone who actually has a little bit of courage and who has some sort of ability to say, no,

41:13

I'm not going to deceive everyone around me and play pretend in order to make everyone feel better by making, you know, useless gestures and destroying people's lives and destroying their ability to work and everything else.

41:27

you know, and particularly as it relates to the church, we're given certain commands, you know, greet one another with a holy kiss, right?

41:33

Unless you're, you know, except for in times of COVID in which case, you know, you can't even give a handshake, you know?

41:41

You can't even sing songs. Can't even sing songs, but, yeah, no, I mean, there was a time during the pandemic where I saw, you know,

41:50

I encountered a denominational leader of some sort and I won't say anything more than that, but, you know,

41:56

I saw him and I went to shake his hand and, you know, he just kind of looked at me and said, I'm not going to shake your hand, you know, because he was too afraid to shake my hand.

42:05

I just thought, yeah, all right, you know, like I, okay, all right, like,

42:13

I guess I've learned a good bit about you in that. right. that's, we've had greetings that you've done for hundreds of years and you're just, you know, that's the kind of person you are, but.

42:27

So, I mean, all right, so you're saying we should, so you should not go to a church that, you know, has followed the

42:37

CDC's guidelines with COVID -19. Is that like, I wouldn't say should,

42:43

I would, I would just say I don't, like, should as if you're in sin. I wouldn't say you're in sin for doing that.

42:48

I would just say, I just, it's unwise. Yeah, it's like, I mean, if the girl wanted, if the guy, you know, the thugs came up, pointed the guns and the guy, you know, who's dating her held her out in front of them, you know, and then she was a little bit shaken by that and she were to ask me, you know, do you,

43:05

I think you should, I should break up with him and it's just like, I don't see why you'd want to date him anymore, right?

43:12

Right, yeah. You know, if she were to say, is it wrong for me to still date him? It's like, well, I just think you're burying your head in the sand and pretending that you didn't see what you just saw.

43:21

You know, if you want to engage in like exercise of like willful delusion, go for it.

43:26

You know, I don't know that it's wrong to just hope for the best, but I don't think it's a reasonable hope, you know, so it's that kind of thing.

43:34

I don't know that it's wrong to go to a church. It's just lies. it depends.

43:41

I suppose part of it depends on what we're even talking about at this point, you know, so like if you're still at a church that is refusing to meet, you know, because they're going above and beyond the

43:52

CDC recommendations, that would be a clear sin, you know, if you're still, if you're at a church that right now is like providing space for those people who are held captive by the fear of death by providing them their own social distance and mass space or something like that,

44:06

I would say, you know, these men are cowards and I don't understand why you'd want to put yourself under that, you know, so I kind of,

44:14

I think some of it depends on what is actually happening in real life, but if they are the kind of men who just have been blindly following whatever has been recommending the whole time in a very strict sense, some of that could be very sinful and some of that could be just like a vote of no confidence, but do you have a follow -up with that?

44:34

Yeah, I just wanted to ask, you know, so when it, when we're saying, you know, churches that blindly followed the

44:41

CDC's guidelines, are we talking about, I mean, just like shutdown at all or, you know, shutdown for three months?

44:52

Are we talking about churches that shut down for six months? I mean, you know, because I think like, I mean,

44:57

I'm pretty sure most churches, I mean, I know, like for example, you know, John MacArthur's church,

45:06

Grace Church, Grace Community Church, I can't remember, yeah, Grace Community Church, they shut down for a little while and they had to, they had to address why they shut down for a little while, so are we saying that, you know, they're no longer a church that you can really trust in?

45:23

I mean, just kind of clarify that part of it for us.

45:29

Yeah, I wouldn't issue some sort of universal condemnation against all churches who followed the

45:35

CDC guidelines for any degree. I mean, I think the question is more along the lines of who are still actively following the

45:43

CDC guidelines at this point, you know, but I do think you know, most people entered into the pandemic with a fairly high level of trust in the

45:55

CDC and the government in general, you know, and maybe we should have been more suspicious, maybe we should have been more suspicious of the medical community.

46:07

I don't know that I am suspicious of some of the things that they are doing in other categories, particularly as it relates to psychotropic drugs and things along those lines, but I think most people entered into this scenario with a high degree of trust in the

46:21

CDC and in the government and, I mean, I wouldn't say, you know, a lot of people have suspicion as it relates to the government, but I don't think most people suspected that the entire world would have been in, you know, cahoots together, so to speak, to shut down the entire world and so I think, you know, with some of the things that were going on at that time, the extreme level of some of the things that were unprecedented and unheard of,

46:51

I don't really begrudge a church who, you know, are being told at the very beginning that millions of people are going to die and that this is, you know, and had some sort of category,

47:05

I mean, I think the Bible does have some sort of category for that kind of thing, you know, like with the, if you see

47:10

Jerusalem surrounded by armies flee to the mountains, you know, I think there is some, even if it's on the

47:17

Sabbath, you know, I think there is some category within the Bible to say if imminent, you know, disaster, natural disaster, quote unquote, to use a loaded term, is on the way then you flee and you run, you know, and so I think, you know, churches had to work through the theology of the thing, what is a quarantine, does a government have a, like a right to quarantine its people, you know, what does

47:45

Romans 13 say, and I think, you know, I think

47:50

Grace Community Church, myself, I think that they took a little bit too long to come to the kind of conclusion that they came to, but I'm glad that they did, but then even my judgment on that matter is coming from me being in a situation totally unlike the situation that they're actually in, in that, you know, when we defied government, you know, executive orders by our governor when we did, you know, we didn't end up facing any financial repercussions, we weren't sued or anything like that, and so, like, you know, so, that being the case,

48:28

I'm glad they came out on the other side, and, you know, the fact that they suffered in the way that they did, and they were willing to have courage and take a stand is very encouraging, you know, even if it was, like, a little bit later, maybe than what might have seemed reasonable to people on the outside, but, you know, like, we, you know,

48:52

I don't know that, you know, I want to be the kind of person who's basically just taking my current understanding of a situation like that and just imposing upon it and say, you better get where I'm at at exactly where I'm at it, exactly when

49:08

I get there, I think we all need to have a little bit of grace as it relates to that, but then there is a real sense in which, you know, with all the evidence that we've had and all the contradictions that you've been able to observe, you know, if you're still a church that's just, like, you know, blind trust in the

49:25

CDC today, that's, that's just crazy. I don't even know what to make of that, and I don't know how you can trust that, you know, today, so, like, the most modest statement

49:34

I can make is, if they still haven't figured it out, you, like, this is, these are not people who understand the times they live in.

49:43

Yeah, like, like, hey, look, even the CDC is, is, you know, the CDC is basically saying, and, and,

49:51

I mean, they're not, you know, they didn't put out a statement that says, like, the pandemic, quote unquote, is over or anything, but then they're basically treating it like it's over, right?

50:03

Well, I mean, if you, if you can't right now with the CDC saying, like, that they're trying to regain trust, you know, and trying to give you guidelines that more reflect what people are actually doing right now, if that doesn't tell you everything that you need to know about following, blindly following their guidelines,

50:23

I simply don't know what will, you know? Right, yeah, and if you can't, if you can't figure that out, then

50:29

I don't know how to trust you when it comes to any sort of practical application of, yeah, of anything that the

50:35

Bible, or that you're, that you're responsible for teaching me or, and my family about the

50:40

Bible, right? So, so when the, so, so, like, you know, all right, the

50:46

COVID -19 thing is over, you waited till the very end to, you know, stop encouraging people to mask up or social distance or, you know, not sing songs or whatever, or, you know, do online church as if that was a thing.

51:04

If you're only just now kind of getting there with, with COVID -19, then what happens like when, when the next thing comes around, right?

51:14

When it's, you know, monkey pox or, or it's global warming, right?

51:20

Yeah, I mean, so, and I would say, you know, if you couldn't figure it out in the first year, I would be very suspicious of you too, you know?

51:26

If you couldn't figure it out in the first year, I would, I would say, you know, honestly, if you couldn't figure it out in the first six months or so,

51:32

I'm pretty suspicious of your ability to figure out, like, to even, like, think logically or rationally and non -emotionally and, you know, very specifically, but, you know, like,

51:45

I, you know, I, you know, the kind of person, you know, the kind of church that just, you know, went along with it and went along with it the whole entire time,

51:56

I just, I don't know how you respect a church like that, honestly. Right, right, yeah. But, you know, where, at what point, how long, you know,

52:04

I don't, I don't know. It's hard, it's hard to, it's probably not smart to put, like, a hard, you know, three month line on it or something like that.

52:12

I would want to know, I mean, I really would want to know, though, from a church leader, you know, regardless of how they handled it, you know, how are you going to handle it in the future and that would be something

52:22

I would be asking a church I was going to, if that happens again, what are you going, what are you committed to doing and I want to know, like, what are you committed, how will you handle that again next time, you know, if it is monkey box, right?

52:34

If, like, you know, are you going to, you know, are you going to be like, you know,

52:42

I mean, are you going to be that category of Christians, you know, who are writing the articles saying, you know, love your neighbor, get the monkey box vaccine, you know, is that your approach?

52:53

Like, I want to know how you're going to respond to it. I want to know clearly, black and white, what are you going to do next time at the very least, you know, tell me how you're going to respond next time and then, you know, so that if you, if you cave,

53:05

I'm gone, you know what I mean? Like, I want to see how you're, you respond and I want you to commit to, commit to that.

53:13

Yeah. So, so I can, at the very least, and if you still, like, if you're still talking to a person who's just like, follow the science, you know, it's like, yeah, yeah, we're out of here, man, you know, like, that's all

53:27

I need to know. Like, you told me everything I need to know. You're going to respond just like, nine marks responded. You're going to respond just like,

53:33

TGC responded. I don't want anything to do with that, you know? Right. So, regardless of how much evidence you need, that there's some sort of resistance they had to the original go around,

53:42

I at least want to know how you're going to respond next time. So, I guess, in closing, what are, you know, so basically, you should ask about how they handled

53:58

COVID -19. You should ask about how they're going to handle other things in the future because they are, they're going to come up.

54:05

They're going to, they're definitely going to come up with the way things are going. I mean, it seems more likely than not that, especially with global warming, which

54:12

I think we definitely, I think we definitely need to do an episode on at some point because it seems like that's probably going to be, if it's not, the monkey pox thing is kind of like a meme more than anything.

54:26

I mean, I hope so, you know, I mean, at this point, you can't rule anything out, you know, I mean, you can't, you're right, you're right.

54:33

I don't have a high expectation that we're going to have a monkey pox pandemic, but like, but I mean, there are still people, man, who have gotten four, they've gotten vaccine, they got four, you know, shots and, you know, their boosters and everything else and they still like are living in paranoid fear and blaming, you know,

54:54

COVID on the people who didn't get vaccinated. So, like, there are still people who have that level of, like, ability to think and reason.

55:02

So, you know, I don't know, I don't put anything beyond this. I mean, I, like, you know, for some reason, I think my perspective is that I hope it's all over, like all the pandemic joke is over.

55:15

I hope that this was just, you know, one of those, you know, like the woman gives birth and then she immediately forgets all the trouble that, that she went through and I hope that we could just turn a corner and regain our sanity and move on.

55:29

Back to normal world. You know, but part of me just wonders, you know, after these midterm elections are over, what's going to happen?

55:36

Right? And like, what are we, like, you know, so what's going to happen at that point? You know, what kind of government are we actually living in?

55:43

Will there be a significant government turnaround at that point? What's going to happen with the next election?

55:49

Like, I don't think we're done with, you know, World Health Organization and all that trying to fundamentally re, you know, great reset and all that.

56:00

Yeah, World Economic Forum. Yeah, yeah. I don't think, I don't think we're done.

56:05

Like, I don't think we're out of the woodworks, but I do think for the current election season, they're trying to bring things as normal as they can to try to not lose as many votes as they can.

56:16

Now, I don't know. I mean, I don't know. It seems like they have a great capacity to, you know, make up ballots, too.

56:23

You know, so, but I don't know. I don't, I don't suspect there will be a monkey pox shutdowns.

56:32

But, hey, you can't take it off the table. Can't take it off the table. Can't take it off the table. Yeah, for sure. Well, you know, okay, so, so we've talked about that at length.

56:41

Maybe just to close us out, could you just give us a list of, you know, we, we joked at the beginning talking about like, hey, look,

56:49

I'm looking for the church that has the, you know, the coffee shop and they've got the, they've got the kids area where I can, where I can drop my, my kid off and not have to think about them for two hours while I go do whatever.

57:04

We kind of made a joke about that. Can you give us a little bit of a, of a better list in terms of what people should be looking for in their church in general?

57:16

Yeah, I mean, some of that's related to the type of, you know, denomination you actually find yourself in.

57:22

So some of that's, you know, I could, I could tell you what, you know, all of my doctrinal distinctives and then that, that could, you know, be the decisive, decisive for you across the board without necessarily going that route.

57:37

I would say that, you know, I, I, I would want to, without necessarily talking through, you know, you know, ruling out good, you know, without addressing the

57:53

Presbyterian kind of Baptist kind of issues related to those sorts of things and, you know, leaving aside that other kind of denominational things along those lines,

58:03

I would certainly want to go to a church that believed in the sovereignty of God. I don't, I don't know how you can, you know,

58:10

I don't know how you could go to a church that didn't have some sort of strong commitment to sovereignty of God.

58:16

I'd want to go to a church that is certainly practicing church discipline. Like, I, I know that there are very few churches out there that are legitimately practicing church discipline and who, like, are willing to clear their roles out and get, you know, you know, the vast majority of,

58:37

I think, Southern Baptist churches have roles that have about three times the amount of people that, or more, that actually ever attend.

58:43

I'd want to go to a church that practices meaningful membership, that, you know, is going to do church discipline.

58:50

I mean, when you're in, like, when you have difficult relational conflicts that are happening in the course of marriage, if you don't have some church discipline message, mechanism, that really is going to, you know, be very destructive to your church.

59:03

So I'd want something like that. I'd want a church that has some sort of clear, kind of statement of faith that they're operating by that's just not some vague statement of faith that's more robust and more comprehensive to at least tell you where they're coming from.

59:18

I'd want to look at their statement of faith and understand what it's saying and, you know, communicate with the leaders about, you know, their doctrinal distinctives along those lines.

59:29

I mean, personally, I wouldn't want to go to a church that is charismatic in any way. So that's just, I mean,

59:34

I just, I want to go to a church that has a firm belief in the sufficiency of Scripture, you know, that it's going to shepherd my soul, you know, that it's going to take care of me, that it's going to give me

59:48

Biblical counseling that I can go and they're not going to be, like, they have a, they really, it's not just that they teach the

59:56

Bible week in and week out, like, faithfully, but they have some sort of mechanism to answer my questions that I might have from the

01:00:05

Bible. I mean, I know that there's a lot of churches out there that really have dropped the ball as it relates to shepherding in general, and they don't, they may be good, like, orators and faithful, you know, at exposition, but they really don't have any kind of mechanism for personal one -on -one counseling, discipleship, and I'd want to go to a church that is committed to, you know, like, really just, they're going to address my problems, whatever my problems happen to be in a biblical way and be able to give me biblical counsel and biblical wisdom.

01:00:38

So, those are some of the things that I would look for. Not a comprehensive list of things by any means, but I want to know that they're trusting in the sufficiency of Scripture, you know, have some sort of meaningful membership, they're resting in the sovereignty of God, and I want to know that they're individuals who are not just pulling the audience to figure out, you know, what they're allowed to say.

01:00:59

You know, I'd be very nervous of going to the kind of church where, like, the pastor just makes endless qualifications, you know, when he gets to a controversial area of the

01:01:08

Scripture, he's just going to spend the whole time apologizing and, you know, that nervous kind of laughter and nervous kind of chuckling.

01:01:16

I'd want to go to the kind of church where a guy is willing to, you know, basically talk about, like, some of the angular passages of Scripture in a natural and a normal and a comfortable way, as if it's just, like, never going to apologize for the

01:01:34

Bible, but believes the Bible, and there's some, you know, sense that you have that your leaders are going to do whatever the

01:01:39

Bible says, even when it's hard, you know, and that would be something that I would be looking for, like,

01:01:45

I want to know that these guys are, and they have to be guys, right? I want to know that these guys are willing.

01:01:52

You'd think that'd go without saying, but... Yeah, not considering the current state of affairs, but I want to know that these guys are willing to do whatever the

01:02:00

Bible says, no matter what. And, so, I mean, those are just some of the things that would be higher on my list in general, and, you know,

01:02:12

I'd be, you know, I'd want to go to a church that has more of a family feel, that you get the feeling that, you know, everyone is practicing the 38, one another's, and, you know, actively involved in each other's lives, and, you know, it's a church where you're not just going to get lost in the crowd, and, you know, just, you know, do your check mark and be done, but there are people who are going to love you enough to be involved in your life and asking you real questions and iron sharpening iron and everything else, but, you know, there's a lot more you can say about that, and I don't know that I can pretend to give an exhaustive list, but beyond that, yeah,

01:02:51

I mean, one of the things I would want to know just as a test is, of what kind of men these are, is, you know, how did you handle the

01:02:59

COVID stuff, and how are you going to handle it in the future? Right. Okay, well, hopefully that's given you guys who are listening a lot of stuff to think about as it pertains to, you know, evaluating the church that you're at right now, or evaluating churches that you're considering joining as a member.

01:03:21

I really do think, like you said, Tim, I really do think that I had the same experience while I was in school, and while I was in church when

01:03:31

I was younger. The consensus was, I mean, it was just like a, you know, whenever you ask someone, at what point do you disobey the government?

01:03:41

It's almost like when someone answered, they were kind of like, oh, well, of course, if they, you know, if they tell you to sin, obviously, right?

01:03:50

But then, but then, you know, we kind of had a test run of that, and, you know,

01:03:57

I think, I think for a lot of people, they kind of, they didn't, they didn't follow through with what they said, and so when you, so I really do think that trying to consider how churches responded to the

01:04:10

CDC's, you know, we'll call them recommendations. The divine right of the

01:04:18

CDC, right? Yeah. That's probably a lot more accurate. How did, how did churches respond, and how did church leaders respond to those things?

01:04:27

Because that is going to tell you a lot about how they respond in the future, especially, which I think is, is really important considering all of the things that are going on right now, like you mentioned.

01:04:38

So, so our hope is that this has been encouraging for you, and it has given you a lot to think through or maybe you've already thought through a lot of these things, and if you have, let us know.

01:04:48

That'd be really encouraging to know that there, that those of you who are supporting us have been thinking about these things and are taking it pretty seriously.

01:05:01

and we want to, too, we just want to thank you guys for supporting us so much and listening week in and week out and, you know, giving us the opportunity to get to equip you guys through our conversations and through the things that we talk about while we go to all the places that no one else really wants to go right now.

01:05:21

And so, we thank you guys for all your support and we look forward to having you guys on the next one. This has been another episode of Bible Bashed.

01:05:34

We hope you've been encouraged and blessed through our discussion. We thank you for all your support and ask you to continue to like and subscribe to Bible Bashed and share our podcast with your friends and on social media.

01:05:45

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01:05:55

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01:06:06

Now, go boldly and obey the truth in the midst of a biblically illiterate world who will be perpetually offended by your every move.