WWUTT 2430 Q&A Church Discipline, Removing Pastors, Michael Tait, the Christian Music Industry

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If a pastor was removed for adultery and the church was told about it, is that the right thing to do or should it have been more private?

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What other ways might church discipline be conducted? And how do we respond to immorality in the Christian music industry?

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The answer is when we understand the text. This is

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When We Understand The Text, a daily Bible commentary to help encourage your time in the Word, brought to you by Providence Reformed Baptist Church in Casa Grande, Arizona.

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For more information about our church or our ministry, visit www .wutt .com.

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Here once again is Pastor Gabe. Once again. Once again. I love it.

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Proverbs 11 too we're starting with here. For when pride comes, then comes disgrace, but with the humble there is wisdom.

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Verse three, the integrity of the upright guides them, but the crookedness of the treacherous destroys them.

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Last week, we finished up the episode talking about the Michael Tate scandal. Michael Tate, who had formerly been a singer with DC Talk and then the lead singer of the

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Newsboys. We're going to come back to talk about those things again today. At the time that we recorded that, we only had one source that were making some allegations against Michael Tate.

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And even though the story itself and the persons that they interviewed, all of that appeared to be credible, it's still just one source.

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And Michael Tate had commented back on that. And he had already even issued his apology and everything else.

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I said that we needed to be slow on that because more things were going to come out. And sure enough, that same day that this episode posted,

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The Guardian had done their own investigation, affirmed all the other allegations that have been made by Michael Tate, plus expanded their investigation to include more.

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There have been other stories that have come out, including an article in Christian Post where Christian singer Corey Asbury, the singer behind the song

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Reckless Love, which has been so popular in churches the last few years. He claimed that everyone knew about Michael Tate's history of misconduct and alleged that many other

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Christian artists are also living double lives. Oh my. Which is incredible that if you knew that and you didn't say anything.

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No joke. Corey Asbury's music shouldn't be performed or sung anymore either. But we'll get to that here.

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So we're going to come back to that story. Oh man. Since there were many other things that had happened.

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I mean, it's not totally, you know, unheard of or unexpected, but at the same time,

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I'm appalled. This is Christian music. Yes. There is a standard. This is the kind of stuff that happens.

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Like, you're supposed to be Christian. Yeah, right. There's at least a basic standard. Right? Am I expecting too much?

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Right. There's basic moral decency. Apparently, I'm expecting too much. Even unbelievers know that you have to have.

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And here, among Christian music, we can't even have basic moral standards. So, yeah.

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No, you're right. You're right. Okay. All right. We're going to get to that later. We are going to get to some other questions.

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We're going to shove that. Put a pin in it. Now that I got you worked up.

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Oh my goodness. I got you worked up and we're going to save it. That is the first I'm hearing. Okay. We're going to do that in the second half hour like we did kind of last time and touch on some of those things near the end.

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But in the meantime, if you want to send us a question, you can always email us when we understand the text at gmail .com.

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I got some heavy questions toward the end of the week, stuff that would be kind of in depth.

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So I'm not going to be able to get to those today. I want to spend a little bit more time on those. So if you sent me a pretty serious, heavy question and we don't address it here, then hang on.

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It might be something that we get to next week. But again, you can email us to when we understand the text at gmail .com.

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Don't forget voicemail. So go to www .utt .com and click on the voicemail tab.

04:03

And we'd love to hear a question from you or a comment that you may have like this one from Chris.

04:10

Hey, good afternoon, Pastor Gabe and Becky. And this is Chris from North Carolina.

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And I just wanted to say that it was a really sweet thing to hear your little one come into the studio there.

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And so glad y 'all didn't cut that out. Over the last couple of weeks, I've been out in the California desert experiencing that heat y 'all are talking about and a couple hours away from seeing my own family soon.

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So I definitely cherish those times with the little ones, with the family and just precious every time.

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So I just want to say it. Bless my soul to hear that little voice on the on the podcast. God bless and y 'all have a great rest of the week.

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Oh, thank you, Chris. So if you listen to the full podcast and you got that second half hour, yeah, you heard the toddler come in.

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Yeah. Somebody else had messaged me and said, now, what was he asking about? Yeah, yeah. He wanted blue teas.

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Yeah. Blue teas. Yeah. What was he talking about? I drink mostly sweet tea. Right. That's my beverage of choice.

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He knows that he can't have sweet tea, at least after a certain hour of the day because of how much sugar.

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I mean, I'm from the South. So because of the sugar in the caffeine content. Right. So he knows this is a drink that he can't have.

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So anything else that is a sugary caffeinated drink automatically gets called tea. Mm hmm.

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Well, somebody had given us a pack of those coconut Dr. Peppers. Yes. Which I kind of like.

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I kind of like it too. Not as good as original Dr. Pepper, but they did it right. Yeah. And they've got a blue label on them.

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So he came in here asking. Exactly. Supposed to like, I don't know, enhance it or something. He was up from his nap.

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He knew that after a certain time of the day, he couldn't have caffeine. So he comes to us asking, can I have one of those blue teas?

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It was the coconut Dr. Peppers in the blue cans. That's what it was. So that was his that was his inquiry.

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We did some investigation. That's the translation. That's right. We did some investigation and found out what it was.

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Yeah. We had him go point because we had no idea what he was talking about. Yeah. I know. I had I had to have him show me a blue teas.

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I don't even know. We don't have any blue tea. Kool -Aid. But we don't have

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Kool -Aid. Yeah. Would it be Kool -Aid? And he knows Capri Suns. He doesn't he's not confused about tea and Capri Sun.

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And he's not as forbidden from those as he is from soda or something like that. Yeah. All right.

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Well, we got another question here. And this one is from Janie. Hello, Pastor Gabe and Becky.

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I really love and appreciate you guys. I listen to the podcast faithfully every day. And Friday is my favorite day.

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I hope you and your children are doing well. My question is a sad one.

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My beloved pastor has unfortunately confessed to having a physical relationship with a woman in our congregation.

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Do you have any thoughts on how this very disconcerting sin should be handled within the church? My pastor was immediately terminated and the announcement of his indiscretion was announced to the church body.

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Consequently, this has had a devastating effect on all of us. Do you think that the severe disciplinary measure was warranted?

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Or do you think that a Matthew 18 would apply in this situation? Any thoughts or commentary you could share would be highly appreciated.

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Thank you so much. By the way, my name is Janie. So appreciate you listening,

07:34

Janie. Thank you. And thank you for your prayers, too. Yeah. Just one quick minor correction. But Aria's name is pronounced

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Aria, not area. That's common. Yes. Common mistake. As a matter of fact, when she was born,

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I think you corrected me on that at one point. Yeah, I did. I said area. Yep.

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And I'm the one who named her. Yep. And I had to be corrected on the pronunciation. But yeah, you got our kids' names right.

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And we so appreciate your prayers. That is very kind of you. Okay. This is a difficult and delicate subject as much as it is a public thing.

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I mean, obviously the church knows, but it's still a very sensitive thing to have to deal with.

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It is. Now, it's something that we've had to go through before. Yes. Because we had an elder, which would be in the same position as a pastor, held to the same standards.

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He was a teacher in the church. May not be that main teaching pastor every Sunday. Right. But he's nonetheless considered a pastor in the church.

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This was in our church in Kansas. He was caught in adultery. And he had to be removed from that position as well.

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So the things that we went through, things that I think we did right and stuff I definitely would have done differently, if given the opportunity to do that.

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Over. That's a terrible way to put it. If we had to do it over again.

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There you go. Yeah. If I had to do it over again, I know what I would have done differently. So is this, was this handled the right way?

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Should it have been handled in a more Matthew 18 style, as she said? Becky's shaking her head.

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No. No. Let's look at Matthew 18 first, and then we're going to go to 1 Timothy 5. Yeah. Where these things are talked about, considering elders receiving this kind of correction.

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So in Matthew 18, this is where we have Jesus laying out the guidelines for church discipline.

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And it begins in Matthew 18, 15. If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone.

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If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses.

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If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses even to listen to the church, let him be to you as a

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Gentile and a tax collector. So we have here what is called a four -step process of church discipline.

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Right. The first step being that if your brother sins, and specifically it says if your brother sins against you, you go and tell him his fault.

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This would basically be that you've seen somebody else sin, and so you're calling it out.

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And if you're able to gain your brother, if he's convicted over his sin and he would repent of it, then it doesn't need to go beyond that confrontation.

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Right. It's a one -on -one thing. That's step one. And it's taken care of. And it's taken care of. What you would hope to have happened in that process has occurred.

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You have a person who's been convicted over their sin and repents, and the purity of the body is maintained.

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Amen. Because church discipline is really all about the purity of the church. Even if someone doesn't repent, if you're following the disciplinary process the way that the

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Bible gives it to us, then the goal should be the purity of the church. Right. Whether he repents or whether he is removed, purity has been maintained.

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And that's important. That's an important distinction because a lot of people define a church discipline as the goal is repentance.

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That's certainly what we want to have happen. But if they don't repent, it doesn't mean that we failed.

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Right. That we somehow were unfaithful in this process. That's true. We still need to be obedient to what

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God has said in his word. So step one is this one -on -one confrontation. Step two, if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses.

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So this even goes back to Old Testament law. No charge is to be brought against a person unless it can be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses.

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Now this does not mean that you get one or two people to go along with you to agree with you.

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Right. About whatever you're raising against this brother. So you're not bullying a person.

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Yeah, right. Like I've got two or three others that I've convinced are correct and so therefore you're wrong. It needs to be that they have recognized the wrong that he's guilty of and he won't repent of it.

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That's what it needs to be. And so if he doesn't listen to them, the second step of this process, then verse 17, you tell it to the church.

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Right. That's been interpreted different ways. Do you tell it to the entire body of the church?

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Or the elders of the church? Do you tell it to the elders of the church? Is there a disciplinary committee?

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Oh yeah, there's that too. Depending on how your church's polity is set up or something like that.

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Now something that Becky and I have mentioned in recent weeks is that we had a person in our church once who was making slanderous comments of other people.

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And those comments we knew to be false. We had tested those comments, knew them to be lies.

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And so we were not going to allow this person to continue to spread that in the body. Right. They remained unrepentant, would not acknowledge that what they were saying was wrong, even when they were caught in their lies.

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Right. And so they had to be removed. In taking that before the church, we as elders knew what they had said, but we weren't going to bring it before the body because it was just going to spread gossip.

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Right. So some of those comments remained hidden. And we had brought this up with regard to Josh Bice.

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When he was removed as president of G3 and his websites were scrubbed, like the different social media sites that he was using to make slanderous comments about other people, brothers and sisters in the

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Lord. Those sites were scrubbed and now we don't know what the comments were. So people are going, hey, we deserve to get to know what the comments were.

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No, you don't. No, not if it's slanderous. Right, because it was slanderous comments made about another person.

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It doesn't matter. Otherwise, it keeps going. Yeah, exactly. And that becomes gossip. They achieve what it was that they were out to achieve by making these comments.

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So in cases like that, you want to keep it contained and you want to keep it small. I don't agree with the interpretation that you need to take this before the entire body and let them decide.

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Right. No. Well, no. That could just mean inform the body, not have them vote on it.

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You turn to majority rule and you end up with a golden calf. Right. When you see democracy practiced in the

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Bible in that way, it doesn't go real well. No, not usually. And there's nothing new under the sun.

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That's right. So you know what's going to happen again. They put the Son of God to death. Yes. You know, so there's other stories I can tell about that too, where a decision was given to the congregation that just really was not any of their business.

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Yeah, no. I remember this was. I can recall some too. Yeah. I'm like, oh, goodness, I'm cringing.

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Within the first year or two that I was a pastor, there was a matter that we brought before the body. And I won't go into the details of it because that would be name dropping.

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But it was something that had already been decided among the pastors. Yes. And suddenly we're bringing it to the body and the body shot it down.

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Yep. And I was not involved in. Yeah. It was not my decision to bring it to the body.

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That was somebody else's. But I was still like, that's none of their business. They don't even know all the ins and outs that we know.

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Right. That we had to go through in order to make that decision. And obviously, the congregation didn't trust the pastors in order to lead.

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Right. Well, and shot it down. Anyway. But the senior pastor went with the body's vote and even voted with them.

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Yes. Though we as pastors had already voted the other way. And I was so upset about that. I was like.

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Obviously, you're still hanging on to that a little bit. I wanted to tell him, you lied to me.

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But anyway, yeah, that's another matter. But it all just goes to say there are some things that just the whole church can't handle together.

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It can't be done by the whole body. It's not even practical to do it that way. So understand what is meant by tell it to the church.

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Right. You as a church body, as a polity, need to be able to define that. And then if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a

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Gentile or a tax collector. In other words, he's a false convert. And so he would be removed from the body and not a member of the church any longer.

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You would still want to share the gospel with him and hoping that he would repent. Exactly.

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Yes. Hoping that he repents and comes back in. He can be restored back to the body.

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And then the grace of God would be displayed in your midst. That'd be a wonderful thing for that to happen. But that's the four -step process there.

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So you have one -on -one. You have the establishment of two or three witnesses. Tell it to the church.

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If he refuses even to listen to the church, then he's to be removed and to be treated as if a

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Gentile or a tax collector. Now, there's another process in Titus 3 that is a three -step process.

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Yes. I was going to just touch on the fact that there's more than one way in the

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Bible to confront sin. And everybody goes to Matthew 18. Yeah, right.

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Matthew 18, because that's just a common one where sinning against a brother or a sister in Christ, it's the one that's most common.

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Yes. But there are other ones. Yes, there are. Okay. So anyway, go ahead. So with this one, and this is even given in a different context.

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So Titus 3 .10, as for a person who stirs up division after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him.

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Knowing that such a person is warped and sinful, he is self -condemned. Now, the context of this appears to be false teaching.

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So back to verse 9, avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.

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And Paul had previously told Titus about teachers that would be unqualified because they're teaching these kinds of things.

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Right. So a person who stirs up division is dividing because he's teaching things that are wrong, that are causing division among the body.

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So you warn him once, and hopefully after that warning, he's going to say, you're right. You're right.

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These are tertiary doctrines, or they're out of left field, or whatever else.

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Right. I need to be careful with saying these things. And then if he still persists in that, you warn him a second time.

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I know, it's a habit I need to break. Thank you for confronting me in it. Maybe removing him from the position until he can learn a bit better or something to that effect.

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Or unlearn the habits. Yeah, unlearn bad habits. But then after that, after once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him.

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So that's a three -step process. One warning, two warnings, and then he's removed. Knowing that such a person as he persists in doing things that sow division and teach falsely would be warped and sinful.

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And he's self -condemned. You're not condemning him by removing him from the body. He's shown himself to be self -condemned.

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Because he won't listen to sound judgment and reason. And won't be shaped by the right teaching of the word.

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Now, he could even be introducing doctrines that you wouldn't necessarily call heretical.

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But they are matters that are causing, that are sowing division in the body in such a way.

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That it's not even about the commonality anymore. Or even about the statement of faith that we've agreed upon as a church.

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And now you're sowing these other things that are causing division. So it doesn't have to be a heresy that they're necessarily teaching falsely.

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Just as long as it's like making ripples in the church. Exactly, yeah. It's dividing over non -essential things.

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And this person is not reasoning or they may even be taking doctrines and placing a fundamental importance on them.

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Oh yeah, there's that too. That the body doesn't consider to be fundamental. So that's the three -step process.

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The two -step process is given in 1 Corinthians chapter 5.

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So you identify him, you remove him from the body. And specific sins are given there. Sexual immorality.

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And then also idolatry, reviling, drunkenness, and swindling. Greed is also mentioned there as well.

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So 1 Corinthians 5 .11 where those things are mentioned. That person needs to be removed from the body. And yet, still hoping that such a person would be convicted over their sin.

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Right. And then could therefore be restored to the body. But you have some sins, therefore, that are treated with greater severity than others.

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Right. And even in the same context of this particular sin in the body that Paul is confronting in 1 Corinthians 5.

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It's in chapter 6 where he says that sexual immorality is committed against your own body.

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Every other sin is outside the body. Yeah. But sexual immorality has a uniqueness to it that's different than every other sin.

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And we've talked about pastors that are caught in adultery before. And even citing from Proverbs the uniqueness of that sin and the severity of it.

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That he marks himself when he's committed adultery. And it has a more severe outcome to it than any other sin that we might commit.

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Remember that adultery in the Old Testament in theocratic Israel. If you committed adultery, you got stoned to death.

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You got stoned to death. Right. You got put to death for that. That was a capital punishment. Yeah. So a capital crime, capital punishment.

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Therefore, we need to treat it severely even though we're not dragging our pastors out to the parking lot and stoning them.

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Praise the Lord. But it's still a serious sin that needs to be taken seriously and dealt with seriously.

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Definitely. So consider again, as I mentioned, the instructions that are given in 1

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Timothy 5. It says in verse 19, So there you have that again.

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Just like church discipline is given in Matthew chapter 18. But this with regards to an elder or a pastor in the church.

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Do not admit a charge against him. He's in a public position. He's in a position in which he's in front of other people.

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There are probably people even outside the church that recognize him as a man of God.

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That's what the people in his church think of him as. He's a man of God. So therefore, he's like the leader of all of them.

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This is what unbelievers are going to perceive him as. Right. And so he's expected to have a certain kind of reputation.

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Right. Hence why in the qualifications for an overseer that you have in 1 Timothy 3, he must be above reproach.

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That's what I was going to say. Yeah. And he must even have a good reputation among outsiders, it says.

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So if he has a bad reputation, like is anybody going to be interested in what that church stands for? Right.

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And the gospel that they share and things like that. So he must even have a good reputation among outsiders.

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But because he's in that public position, that position that's seen more so than any other people in the body, then it's likely he's going to take some shots other people in the congregation won't receive.

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Like people are going to be delivering blows against him. Yeah. That most any other lay person is not going to experience.

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And so therefore, the church needs to give grace in those matters. When charges are raised against a pastor, don't admit a charge, except on the evidence of two or three witnesses.

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And we've seen situations before too of like a pastor having to confront somebody in the body. Well, then that person's response is to fire back.

22:54

Right. To get revenge. I'm going to say all these things about my pastor and get people on my side.

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So discord. So we discord. As much as possible. Yeah. And we've seen that before too. Yes. So hence why this is important for the whole body to recognize.

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Don't accept a charge against an elder, except on the evidence of two or three witnesses. Even when you have a friend that comes to you and said, do you know what the pastor said to me?

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Not to say you shouldn't take that into consideration, whatever he may have said, but take with a grain of salt.

23:21

If somebody has some bitterness against the pastor, I still need other evidence when you're making this kind of charge against his character.

23:29

Yeah. Well, I mean, I've always talked about that filter of, you know, like whenever you're listening to someone, you're going to either take it as, oh, wow, they were very helpful.

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Or you're going to take it as, oh, well, the huh, you know, kind of attitude. And so whenever you're being corrected, if you're being corrected by a pastor, especially, it's like being called into the principal's office when you were a kid, you know, kind of thing where you just automatically feel like you're being humbled.

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And I don't know too many people who like being humbled. So, you know, at least at first.

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It's humbling. It is. It's very, very hard to do and to be put in that position of, but it's good for us.

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You know, so eventually you come back around. They may have taken what the pastor was saying in such a way that the pastor was not trying to communicate that to.

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Even though the words come out the same, the intent might be different. If that makes sense.

24:31

Yeah, right. So anyway, going on in first Timothy five and verse 20, as for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all so that the rest may stand in fear.

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So you do have a charge that's made against an elder. You are able to establish it by the evidence of two or three witnesses.

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They won't come to repentance. And so, therefore, he needs to be rebuked in the presence of all.

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It needs to be known to the church. Here is what he did. And that way the rest may stand in fear.

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They may recognize none of my sins are kept secret either. God knows what my sins are.

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And so that they would stand in fear and desire holiness and would understand too that this man is disqualified.

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It's not good when a church removes a pastor and tries to conceal what it is that he's being removed for.

25:26

Right. I can give you an example of this. This was either a year or two ago. But when Tony Evans stepped down at his church in Dallas because of some unspoken sin, he didn't say what it was.

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And the rest of the church didn't say what it was. Now, my dad has loved Tony Evans for years. And he called me up and was asking me questions about that.

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And I remember one of his questions too being something like, what can we learn from the Tony Evans situation? And I said to him, nothing.

25:50

Yeah. We have no idea what he did. And so there's nothing, therefore, from that situation to even learn from it except to learn that's not the way you handle this situation.

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Right. Whatever it was. And I'm not persisting in this because I want some bit of gossip.

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It's what the Bible says. If he's guilty of a sin for which he needs to be removed, then he needs to be rebuked in the presence of all so that the rest may stand in fear.

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Now, just because he has to be removed doesn't mean that's a permanent removal.

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It could be that he's guilty of something for which a temporary removal may be necessary. Whether it's teaching something he shouldn't have been teaching.

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It could be anger issues that he was not handling well. True. It could be that, you know, it might not be like a serious substance abuse issue, but something like that.

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Was drinking and he shouldn't have been. Handle this problem first and then you can come back. Or try to think of another example.

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There was something else I had right on the tip of my mind and suddenly it's not there. Fixable issues. Yeah, it's fixable issues.

26:52

That's a good way to put it. But with sexual immorality or adultery in particular, this is a serious sin and one that permanently mars his reputation.

27:03

Right. So that he is no longer above reproach. He has brought this sin upon himself. He has not held the marriage bed in honor.

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The instruction in Hebrews 13, 4. Let the marriage bed be undefiled for God will judge the sexually immoral and adulterous.

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He can be forgiven of his sin and he can be restored to the body, but he should not ever be a pastor again.

27:25

Yeah. And I won't continue to elaborate on that because we've touched on that subject before. But that is a permanently disqualifying sin to catch him in adultery.

27:34

Right. And I would say, Janie, that your church did handle that the right way.

27:39

Sounds like it. So it was publicly known. He was removed from the position. Heartbreaking and I'm sorry you guys have to go through this.

27:46

Yeah. But we'll certainly be praying for you and the rest of your body that as you're healing from this process, you're able to look for another pastor that can help to shepherd and lead you well.

27:56

Yeah. And I mean, as you guys as a congregation are mourning, I'm hoping that your elders or whoever it was that made that decision and told you guys would be able to give you counseling through that.

28:10

Yeah. And biblical counseling at that. Even walking you guys through it at the pulpit.

28:16

Right. Not like on a personal level, but like this is what the Bible says and this is what we're going to go through and that sort of thing.

28:24

And shepherding them through that. Yes. And don't forget the family that he hurt as well, especially if he's walked out on that family.

28:30

Yes, definitely. It's good for the church to continue to rally around them and continue to lift them up. Yes. Amen.

28:36

And encourage them. Well, thank you, folks. Thanks for listening to this first half hour. If you're listening to the podcast, hang on. We got another half hour to go.

28:44

You can find the podcast by looking for WWUTT on whatever podcasting app you like to use.

28:51

God bless. There's a popular

29:02

Christian song entitled Reckless Love, sung by Corey Asbury of Bethel Church in Redding, California.

29:08

The first verse goes like this. Before I spoke a word, you were singing over me. You have been so, so good to me.

29:15

Before I took a breath, you breathed your life in me. You have been so, so kind to me. So far, or should

29:21

I say so, so far, the song is all right. Psalm 139 .4 says that before a word is on my tongue, oh

29:27

Lord, you know it all together. Romans 2 .4 says that God shows his kindness toward us to lead us to repentance.

29:33

But then we get to the chorus where he sings, what?

29:44

The love of God is reckless? A word that means without thinking or caring about the consequences of an action?

29:50

Not only is that an unbiblical description of God's love, the artist contradicted himself. In the first verse, he's saying before I spoke a word and before I took a breath, you were good and kind to me.

30:00

But then he sings that God's love is thoughtless and careless. The Bible says that God chose his elect before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.

30:11

In love, he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace.

30:21

That's not reckless. That's foreordained. Don't sing this reckless fluff. Praise God for who the

30:27

Bible says he is when we understand the text. Okay, so back to the Michael Tate story.

30:34

Oh my goodness, I'm cringing. I know, I know. Already. So like I said last week, there were things about this that we did not know because the main break in the story had not come at the time that we had recorded the episode that we did.

30:50

We only knew from one source about these allegations that had been made from Michael Tate. I wouldn't even consider it the most credible source.

30:58

Yeah. But then it was known after The Guardian, which is a much larger and more reputable paper, and they're still liberal, but have a little bit better reputation for solid reporting.

31:11

I mean, we went with it as a story because number one, it was a question, and number two, it was

31:17

Michael Tate himself responded to it. He did, right, and he responded and apologized.

31:22

He acknowledged that he had an addiction to alcohol and cocaine. He acknowledged that he had been in sexual settings with young men.

31:31

He didn't elaborate on what that meant, but he did say that he was sinful in these regards.

31:37

He was attempting to clean his life up, getting, you know, what would you say, unaddicted to these substances.

31:46

He was seeking God for forgiveness. He quoted Psalm 51 in his apology. All of it looked really good, and like I said,

31:53

I even liked the apology when I first saw it. And he said he was stepping back to do all of this. Was not going to be in the spotlight at all anymore.

32:00

Right. Which is great, and we could, at least for what we knew at the time and what was presented in that apology, we could appreciate the genuineness of that apology.

32:10

Right. And it looked humble, but it also still looked enough like there were some -

32:17

Something's going on. There were some details there that were not - Because he said not everything was true in the article.

32:23

Yeah, right. That kind of left a lot, I mean, that didn't kind of, it left a lot open. Yeah. Of, okay, what wasn't true?

32:31

What is true? Is it, like, more? Is it less? Like, that was too ambiguous for me. He said there were details that he didn't agree with, but the substance of it -

32:39

Yes, that's what it was. The substance of the accusations and allegations were at least true. So because he had acknowledged that much, we at least mentioned the story.

32:46

But I did say, let's be slow on accepting that apology, because we've been down this road before.

32:52

Many times. So what was going to happen next where there were going to be other people that were going to come out and were going to say, this is what

32:58

Michael Tate did to me. And we were going to find out that, at least according to that apology, that things were not as they may have looked.

33:07

Yeah. Like Tate was kind of making it look like these situations that he was in with young men were consensual.

33:14

Mm -hmm. He made it appear that way. Right. But, of course, we're finding out now that they were not.

33:19

And even in some situations, he drugged these young men. And were doing things to them in a drunken or inebriated state that they did not want to do.

33:30

And still managed to fight him off. Like they actually had to fight him off and get out of there. Oh, my goodness. In order to escape this guy.

33:36

Young men that admired him because of who he was with DC Talk. It looks like a lot of the worst stuff that The Guardian reported on.

33:44

If I remember right, the story said that many of these things happened between 2002 and 2009.

33:49

So this would have been during. That's a long time. That's a long period. But it would have been during his solo career. Oh. DC Talk was done.

33:56

Right. Okay. And he was not yet the lead singer of the Newsboys. Which I think was in 2010 when that happened.

34:02

It was 2010 or 2011. So the accountability wasn't there. Yeah. No accountability because he's solo.

34:07

He doesn't have the band. Yeah. You know, to keep camaraderie and what do you call it? Just people around you to keep you accountable.

34:14

Yeah. Accountability. But even then after that, we still have allegations of things that had happened even while he was the lead singer of the

34:21

Newsboys. Oh, okay. So it doesn't mean that those things are contained there. But most of the witnesses that they had interviewed for The Guardian were in that particular period of time.

34:31

Oh, that's so sad. Now, a correction. A correction on my timeline from last week. I think I said that near the end of my radio career,

34:38

Michael Tate became the lead singer of the Newsboys. And I didn't remember that correctly. So the whole time

34:43

I was in radio, it was always the Australian band. Oh, okay. It was always an

34:49

Australian was the frontrunner of the Newsboys. Okay. He became the lead singer I think in 2010 or 2011.

34:55

So that was after I left radio. Oh, okay. Yeah. And I mentioned that there were like rumors that would float around about Michael Tate regarding his sexuality.

35:05

But like I said, I think that some of those rumors kind of came about because he wasn't married. Or at least that's the way that I heard them.

35:12

Okay. Because he's not married. Why? Yeah. Is Michael Tate a fruit? You know, something like, is he kind of on the fruity side of things?

35:20

That was why. So it didn't ever seem to me, at least on the stuff that I heard when

35:26

I was in radio, it didn't ever seem to me anything more than gossip. But apparently these things were happening during that period of time and were known.

35:33

I just was not in those circles to know them. Yeah. Now, this was known to such extent that here's the article now that we have from the

35:41

Christian Post, which just came out on Thursday. Thursday, June 19th. Christian singer

35:47

Corey Asbury. He claimed that everyone knew about Michael Tate's history of misconduct and alleged that many other

35:56

Christian artists are also living quote unquote double lives following bombshell reports accusing the former

36:01

Newsboys and DC Talk frontman of grooming, drugging, and sexually assaulting young men.

36:07

Asbury, who's 39, best known for his chart -topping worship hit Reckless Love, made the remarks on social media in the wake of two separate investigations that detailed graphic allegations against Tate, who's 59.

36:22

By the way, a few years ago when I started talking on this program about the things that Ravi Zacharias was accused of and what had been confirmed that he had been doing even while he was a

36:34

Christian minister and traveling all over the world. The young women that he was sleeping with, women that he was grooming and was probably not successful in trying to seduce them.

36:45

But he did have relationships with other women all over the place and having people text him photos and all these other kinds of graphic things that he was keeping secret.

36:55

Had multiple phones in order to have these relationships with women that he had.

37:01

I did not start talking about that until it was confirmed by two sources. So you had

37:06

Christianity Today, that was the first big one that posted it. But I didn't receive it all as this must be true until World Magazine did their own independent investigation.

37:17

Apart from what Christianity Today did, even interviewed different sources and still came up with the same results.

37:23

And were able to affirm this double life that Ravi Zacharias was living. And so I came on and said the allegations are true and we need to have nothing to do with Ravi Zacharias.

37:36

Don't be using his materials and passing it on as credible teaching. There were some problems with his teaching anyway.

37:41

Right. Even before all of this came out. But this man was a fraud. He was an absolute fraud.

37:47

Living a satanic life that we did not see. Something that was like the life of a

37:54

Hollywood celebrity that you see on eHollywood true stories or something like that. It's not something that a

38:00

Christian should be even entertaining a little bit. And Ravi Zacharias' life was completely immersed in this.

38:08

So for me it was not even coming out and saying these things about Ravi Zacharias until we had those two sources.

38:14

And I think enough has been reported on now concerning Michael Tate that these things are true. You don't have to wait for an internal investigation to come in and authenticate that.

38:25

So even when I was saying those things about Zacharias, there were people that were upset at my saying and immediately dismissing

38:33

Zacharias. And I was getting emails that were going, look, they're doing an internal investigation at Ravi Zacharias International Ministries, at RZIM.

38:42

So shouldn't we wait for the results of that first until we completely write off the guy like this?

38:48

And I said that investigation is going to do one of two things. If it's an honest investigation, it's not only going to affirm everything that's already being said about Zacharias, but it's going to uncover that there were way worse things than we've already been told.

39:03

That's number one. Number two, if it's not an honest investigation, then they're just going to cover it up.

39:11

So that's the two potential results. Either we're going to find out more stuff, or they're just going to try to downplay it and try to sweep it under the rug.

39:20

What has been reported on is credible enough from outside sources that they can verify that these things have definitely been true of Ravi Zacharias.

39:30

And I mean, I fear for what happened to him when he died, as painful a death as it was for him when he died, and have to appear before the

39:38

Lord next. And he has to answer for everything that he did. The utter hypocrisy of his life.

39:46

I shudder to think about him standing before the Lord and having to answer for all of that.

39:52

And may that be the sort of thing, like as we were just talking about from 1 Timothy 5, it makes the rest of us stand in fear.

39:58

Yeah, definitely. When we hear about that kind of thing. And this is going to be the case with Michael Tate. But at least with Tate, who's not dead yet, all of these things can come out and convict him.

40:08

And I pray that he would indeed be repentant of the things that he's done. And maybe we'll hear another apology from him later.

40:15

Because didn't most of that stuff about Ravi Zacharias come after he was? After he died. Yeah, that's why you said who's not dead yet.

40:23

Right. Just putting that out there. So all of those things had come out after Zacharias had passed away.

40:29

So we're hearing now about this stuff from Tate. There doesn't need to be an internal investigation or anything else. We have it confirmed by the multiple sources that have now investigated this.

40:38

And the witnesses that have come forward and have shared the same stories. Yeah. Independent of one another. There are some that knew each other, but then others that didn't know one another.

40:46

But what else comes out through this Christian Post story is that not only did a whole bunch of people know about it and didn't say anything, but apparently there are also many other

40:57

Christian artists also living double lives. Exact quote from the story. According to Corey Asbury.

41:05

So why are they not getting called out? No joke. What in the world is going on here? That's what I'm wondering. Do they need to be all screened and be like,

41:12

OK, you can't call yourself a Christian artist unless you pass this screening. Yeah, right. Do you believe in the basics of Christianity?

41:20

You know, like what needs to be done? I know. I've got some recommendations on an overhaul on CCM that I'm going to make here in just a moment.

41:30

But in the meantime, let's kind of continue on with what we've got here. So the reports published in early June include accusations from multiple men, including some who were minors at the time, alleging that Tate used drugs and alcohol to facilitate sexual assault.

41:44

And I'm going to leave the details out of this. Sometimes the details are just way too much. And I've read these stories and I've seen the details.

41:52

And to me, it kind of seems like, you know, ever since the Clinton Lewinsky scandal of the 90s, it's almost like we need to know way too much about the details of these things.

42:02

We need to know way too much? Yeah, we need to know way too much. It's like now we have this idea that we need to know more.

42:09

The details. Give me every nitty gritty thing. Exactly. Give me the saucy stuff. Oh my goodness.

42:14

No. We don't need to know. Please no. So I'm not going to use some of the words that are used in this article.

42:20

But anyway, one survivor told The Guardian he was 13 years old. Oh my goodness. When he was approached by Tate in a public restroom in a very sexual manner.

42:30

Oh, wow. That's our son's age right now. Yeah. That's scary. He turns 14 tomorrow.

42:36

He does. Yeah. In response to the reports, Tate released a statement on Instagram titled, My Confession, June 10th, 2025, acknowledging his years of substance abuse and confirming much of the reported behavior.

42:47

And this is a quote from Tate. Recent reports of my reckless and destructive behavior, including drug and alcohol abuse and sexual activity, are sadly largely true.

42:56

For some two decades I used and abused cocaine, consumed far too much alcohol, and at times touched men in an unwanted, sensual way.

43:04

Well, I guess he does say in an unwanted way. Mm -hmm. So maybe he does acknowledge that he was going after men in a way they didn't want him to, and he did it anyway.

43:17

We'll see. We'll wait and see how much he's going to acknowledge the details of this. But, I mean, he said cocaine.

43:23

Doesn't that mess with your brain as far as, like— Well, it all messes with your brain. Well, I mean, like in such a way that you can't remember things accurately.

43:31

I mean, drinking does that. He knows what he was doing. I'm just saying that he won't remember everything.

43:38

I think with the way at least the reports have come out regarding his alcohol and cocaine use, he was using cocaine with the young men, but he was also using it to get them to an inebriated state that he could take advantage of them.

43:51

Oh, check. Okay, yeah, yeah. So he added, I want to say I'm sorry to everyone I have hurt. I am truly sorry.

43:57

Tate's statement did not directly address allegations involving minors or specific incidents of sexual assault, but he confirmed that he had left the

44:04

Newsboys in January and had recently completed six weeks of rehab at a rehab facility in Utah.

44:11

So following Tate's admission and the mounting public reaction, Asbury responded to questions from fans on social media.

44:18

When asked if he knew about the allegations before they were made public, Asbury wrote, everyone knew.

44:24

This is an exact quote. Yeah. Everyone knew, maybe not the specific details, but everyone knew, unquote.

44:31

That is awful. In another comment, a user asked how many Christian bands slash artists are living a double life like Michael Tate and NTB, which stands for need to breathe.

44:43

Asbury, who frequently addresses what he sees as issues in the CCM industry on TikTok, responded simply a lot.

44:50

Now need to breathe. The reason they mentioned need to breathe is because one of the members of need to breathe came out and accused his brother, who was also a member of need to breathe of sexually assaulting him when they were younger.

45:04

Oh, wow. And so anyway, this, this was, he was also caught up in drug and alcohol abuse and things like that.

45:11

So because that story had come out, that was one of the reasons why that band had been mentioned also when this question was given to Corey Asbury.

45:19

So the comments quickly gained traction after Christian apologist, Mike Winger reposted them on X.

45:24

Winger criticized the culture of silence within the CCM industry. Maybe the reason Michael Tate got away with it for so long is because a whole lot of other people in his industry are also getting away with it.

45:34

Winger wrote, and this results in a culture where exposing anyone is seen as a threat to everyone.

45:41

I mean, doesn't it make everybody accomplices in a way, right? That's what I'm saying.

45:46

Because you're just watching it happen. You're not doing anything about it. I don't think anybody should be playing

45:52

Corey Asbury's music anyway, because he's he's from Bethel music, but this should be enough to make you go,

45:59

I'm not going to play Corey Asbury's music at all. It sounds like you went along to get along. Yeah, no joke.

46:04

So that you could totally ignored. Exactly. Obviously happening in front of you, and make a ton of money and, and not upset the apple cart too much so that you can continue to profit off of the contemporary

46:14

Christian music industry. And we've seen that, but like we talked about it with the angry, the lead singer of Hawk Nelson, not

46:22

Jason Dunn, but Jonathan Steingard, who came out as not a Christian and had resigned from the band.

46:29

And, and for years he knew that he was not a Christian, but it continued as the lead singer of the band so that he could make money.

46:36

Right. And I confronted him about that online. He even responded to what I said, but like you lied to people.

46:43

You try to paint yourself as being holier than thou. Like I know better than these

46:48

Christians do. You lied to them and you manipulated them so that you could take their money. Yeah. You're just as bad as any prosperity preacher out there.

46:56

No joke. Any charlatan who's lying to people in order to get money from them. He did the same thing.

47:01

So continued to make a profit off of the contemporary Christian music industry, even though he, he believed that God wasn't even real.

47:08

So, so anyway, where was I? I don't know. This story still. Yeah. Oh yeah.

47:13

I was saying Corey Asbury's music. You shouldn't even play his either. So there's radio stations now that are taking

47:19

DC talks, old stuff, and they're taking Newsboy stuff where Michael Tate's the lead singer and taking all that stuff off the air because of the, the horrible things that Michael Tate was doing in the midst of all of that.

47:31

Well, Corey Asbury knew that it was going on and didn't say anything. Yep. Just so he could profit. So maybe you need to be taking his music off the air.

47:39

Anyway, going on to this one or this paragraph here, other prominent voices, including

47:46

Paramore lead singer, Haley Williams. So this is a secular band. Okay. Have condemned the Christian music industry for what they describe as systemic coverups and enabling behavior.

47:57

The amounts of things I have to say, and the amount of people I know who were likely changed forever by this man and by the industry that empowered slash enabled him.

48:05

She wrote on Instagram, I grew up around this. Williams continued. I am not afraid of any of these people.

48:11

Most of them have written me off anyway, by now, how many stories like this from the very small corner of the music industry will we hear before we realize that capitalizing on people's faith and vulnerability is the sin.

48:24

The singer said, she hopes that the CCM industry crumbles. She used a foul word.

48:30

I won't repeat that. And to all of you who knew and didn't do a thing, she said, I bet

48:35

I've got your number. And by the way, if you're not angry too, then maybe it's time to question why.

48:41

Well, the industry that makes a point. Yeah. The industry that she's a part of is just as bad.

48:47

If not worse, it is, but at least they're not trying to make them look holy.

48:53

Well, I think they kind of are trying to be a God like, yes. Yeah. Right. They're idols, you know,

48:59

American idol. Yeah. So, yeah. I mean, to hear this from her, it's like,

49:05

Oh, save it. Don't even, don't even bother. You know, you know, the people that are being talked about in your industry that you won't raise any public issue about.

49:15

And you know, they're there. I just, my saying that, you know, what names are popping into your head that you are afraid to stand up and be public about as much as she wants to say,

49:24

I'm not afraid of these people. Yeah, you are. She's not afraid of the Christian people. Maybe. Yeah. Right. Because that industry is not going to give her anything anyway.

49:30

Exactly. Yeah. The quote unquote Christian people. Right. So, so how many of these, how many of these people in this industry are actually

49:38

Christian? So frustrating. James asked this question. So here's a question to go along with everything that we've been reading here concerning this question,

49:46

Gabe, I heard on your show a while ago that if you listen to a band, if someone does something or deconstructs later on, but what if the band or one of the main guys was doing bad stuff while making the music that you liked instead of after the band was over?

50:02

So like, for example, bringing up Kevin Max, because Kevin Max, when he was with DC talk, he was still a believer as far as we knew.

50:11

Okay. And it wasn't until after he left DC talk, even had a stint with, he had his own solo career.

50:18

Then he had a stint as the lead singer of audio adrenaline. And then after that, he quote unquote, deconstructed.

50:25

and so Kevin Max, not a believer, never was a believer. And so James's question is, okay, it makes sense why we would now write that artist off after all that said and done, but what if we knew he was doing bad stuff while he was making the music that you liked?

50:41

I don't think really there's much of a difference. So let me, let me use another example here.

50:47

Ray bolts, Ray bolts, who is most people probably don't know who he is, but a phenomenal songwriter.

50:54

I pledge allegiance to the lamb, watch the lamb. Thank you.

50:59

Was the song that he won a double word for, I think in 1980, I think that's how far back that song goes.

51:05

Okay. But no, I take that back. Dallas home one in 1980 for rise again.

51:10

Oh yeah, that's right. I don't know how I remember this stuff, but then it was, it was sometime after that, that Ray bolts one for thank you.

51:19

So it doesn't go quite that far. I guess I know it has a zero in it, so it must be 1990.

51:25

So 80 or is 78 or 80 was when

51:30

Dallas home one for rise again. And then Ray bolts had the double word song of the year for thank you in 1990.

51:37

Anyway, so most people probably don't remember Ray bolts, but he's since come out as a homosexual claims to be married to a man.

51:44

Okay. Is attending like a unification church or whatever down in Florida somewhere, but he still has his music career.

51:52

His songs are very gay. He, he was a friend of my dad's. He was, he was a friend of our family.

51:58

He listened to my debut album. I remember him even making a comment about the first song. And the comment that he made was so specific.

52:04

I was like, well, I know we listened to it. And anyway, he but had left his wife and kids.

52:11

Most of his kids were grown and gone, I think by this time, but he ends up coming out as a homosexual, marrying a man, even his wife, whom he left became pro

52:20

LGBTQ and advocated for pride and all this other kind of stuff. Very, very sad story.

52:26

Yeah. But since he's come out, no matter how great his songs were and watch the lamb is in my opinion, one of the best contemporary

52:34

Christian music songs ever written. And nonetheless, I would never sing it in front of a body or whatever, because of who

52:42

Ray bolts is and what he's doing now. It, it, the whole thing, someone is straight.

52:47

Exactly. It may. Oh, well, he can be gay and write these great songs like this. Then I can be too.

52:53

Right. There is too much danger there as to what could potentially happen there. So I'm really on the side of when an artist comes out like that.

53:01

And it turns out that they were never truly genuinely Christian. It's those who endure to the end, who will be saved as the

53:08

Lord says, and those who are genuinely his sheep, John 10, no one will snatch them out of my hand.

53:13

Amen. If a person has fallen away from the Lord, I quoted on the podcast, I guess it was yesterday or the day before Hebrews chapter three, take care brothers, lest there be found in you an evil and unbelieving heart that causes you to fall away from the

53:27

Lord. But such a person we know from the parable of the sower in Matthew 13 was never genuinely a believer, right?

53:34

They may show themselves to be a believer for a time, but when the plant that comes up out of that withers away and dies, then they never really were a genuine believer in the first place, right?

53:45

They didn't bear fruit. Right. And so it may have been that they said that they believed, but when persecution came about as, as a result of the word, then they abandoned it or the thorns that represent the cares and concerns of the world that choke out the word.

54:01

And it proves to be unfruitful. First John two 19, where John says they went out from us because they were not of us, right?

54:09

If they were of us, they would have continued with us, but they went out so that it may be plainly seen that they were not of us.

54:16

And that's the case with these who end up going astray like this. They never were genuine believers, right?

54:22

There was a period of time where it was, it was literally profitable for them to be a

54:27

Christian musician. Yes. And be able to make some sort of business or livelihood or, or even amount, some kind of fame as a result of that.

54:38

That's what I was going to say. Make a name for themselves. Exactly. Yeah. But it was not because of Christ. Right.

54:43

And so because of these kinds of situations, I mean, when it comes to radio and radio doesn't quite have the influences it used to because, you know, we're listening to so many things streaming or on our iPhones or, or our smartphones anymore that, you know, who's listening to Caleb all that much.

54:59

But still, I think it's right that a Christian radio station would pull their songs off the air and not continue playing them. Right.

55:05

Even when I was in Christian radio, I stopped playing Phillips, Craig, and Dean because it came about that those men were not

55:13

Christians. They denied the Trinity. Right. So they denied a fundamental doctrine of the Christian faith.

55:18

And so therefore I, I stopped playing Phillips, Craig, and Dean. There was another artist that was like that too.

55:24

I can't remember who it was, but Oh, Oh yeah. It was Matt Marr. Oh yeah. So I was playing

55:29

Matt Marr at first, but then I found out he's Roman Catholic. I said, Nope, not going to be on my station. Yeah.

55:34

And even though people would say, can you play the new Matt Marr song? I would tell them the reason why we don't play Matt Marr is because he's

55:40

Roman Catholic and, and would lead you astray into all kinds of false doctrine. Now, Bethel was not that big yet when

55:48

I was still in Christian radio. So I didn't have to fight that fight of we're not playing

55:53

Bethel. We're not playing elevation. Barely anybody knew who Stephen Furtick was at that particular time. Yeah. But, but that certainly

56:00

I would have had to cross that bridge when I came to it. Yeah. And there's even a big Christian artists and Christian music right now.

56:06

That was a band started by my cousin. Yeah. And I wouldn't play them either.

56:14

Even though it's my cousin's band. So, you know, folks that Grammy awards actually run in my family.

56:21

Yeah. And yeah, there's actually a personal connection to this, even though I'm not, even though I'm not connected with this industry anymore, but I had written down a few things here.

56:33

Cause you mentioned something about these guys need to be Christian. Yeah. At least we need to test and see that they're

56:39

Christian. Right. Like is, is there, I mean, obviously you kind of take them at their word at some point, but, but if it's found by two or more witnesses.

56:51

Yeah. Right. So we talked about two or three witnesses. They're not pastor positions. However, they are leaders.

56:56

It's like as if they're in front of your church, leading you in your worship. And so they do need to be held accountable and held to a certain standard of morality.

57:10

Right. You know, like, well, even when I was in Christian radio, decent human being.

57:15

Yes. I don't know. This is just driving me nuts. Well, even when I was in Christian radio, we still had

57:20

Amy grant who divorced and married another man committed adultery in that way. Sandy Patty committed adultery,

57:27

Michael English, Susan Ashton, so this, this stuff happened. Yes.

57:32

And it was always a conversation. I remember even we had Charles Stanley on the air. And so when his wife left him, there was the conversation about, do we take

57:39

Charles Stanley off the air? Now I was pretty young at that period of time, but looking back on it, I wish we would have taken him off and we didn't.

57:46

Anyway, that's another conversation for another time. There was a, a double wards that I attended.

57:51

Well, that wasn't a double wards. I did attend the double wards, but, but the week surrounding the double wards at that time was called

57:58

GMA week, gospel music association. So there's all kinds of stuff happening there in Nashville, leading up to the double wards where radio

58:07

Christian radio, it was like con it was the conference, the kind of conference that I was attending before there were the

58:12

Christian conferences like there are today. Right? So I would go to GMA week and be rubbing shoulders with other

58:17

Christian radio station guys. There would be artists who would be there. Wouldn't sometimes some of the biggest guys wouldn't be there.

58:24

Like you may not run into a Michael W. Smith or a Stephen Curtis Chapman, but mercy me before they were real big.

58:30

I remember having a conversation with Chris Tomlin when nobody knew who Chris Tomlin was like he was there, but nobody knew who he was.

58:38

Yeah. And he was a songwriter on a lot of other artists songs, but he himself had not become the name that he is now.

58:47

But, but anyway, I remember attending a, there was a session that was in this closed room and it was going to be a session with certain record label executives.

58:59

And you had to be in the room by a certain time because once the thing started, they were going to shut the doors and not let anybody else in knowing how they played this game.

59:08

I knew there's actually going to be some big artists in there. That's why they're going to shut the room off because once they find out who the artists are, then people are going to rush in there.

59:18

Sure. So I went ahead and got like an early seat. I was on the front row. Nice. And, and sure enough, they, they brought four record executives out and they were going to interview.

59:27

They were going to be interviewed about how they vet artists, who they add to their labels.

59:32

Well, two of those executives on the stage were Michael W. Smith and Peter Furler.

59:38

Oh, because Michael W. Smith had started rocket town records. Right. And Peter Furler was in charge of, was it?

59:44

I know it wasn't forefront, but it was something like that. Okay. So he had his own, it was the record label that super chick was signed to.

59:54

Oh yeah. Okay. Man, it's bugging me that I don't remember off the top of my head. Cause they, I think super chick was their first artist.

01:00:00

That was like their first album that they came out with on that label. Yeah. So they were two of the guys. And I remember one of the questions they asked them was, was how do you know, how do you know an artist is going to work out on your label?

01:00:11

What if they're not attending church? You know, they say that they're a Christian, but any of these other things.

01:00:17

And I remember Peter Furler and Michael W. Smith in particular, looking at each other. And then one of them looked at the, at the

01:00:23

MC and said, we don't sign them. If they're not a church going

01:00:28

Christian, then they're not going to work on our Christian label. And they wouldn't say, even if they're passing up.

01:00:35

Praise the Lord for that. Even if they're passing up on a big deal or something like that, they won't sign them because there's no accountability.

01:00:41

There's no credibility there. Right. To verify that their faith is genuine. There are certain artists that I've heard about were not signed for reasons like that.

01:00:50

For example, Destiny's Child from which Beyonce Knowles comes from. They were trying to make it into the

01:01:00

Christian music industry. They were trying to make it in his gospel artists. There's some reason why they weren't signed.

01:01:06

And I think the reason was there was something that was being picked up about this group that just did not seem genuinely

01:01:11

Christian. And sure enough, you look at Beyonce today. Went in a different direction.

01:01:17

Yeah. Dresses up like a pagan goddess whenever she performs on stage, not to mention all the sexuality and everything else.

01:01:23

I didn't need the mental picture. That's what she does. It's a different goddess just about every tour or show or whatever else.

01:01:30

But yeah, I mean, things like that. You will hear stories about artists that didn't get signed in Christian music. You know,

01:01:37

Katy Perry. Yeah, that's what I was going to say. Was formerly a Christian artist, but she didn't make it very far.

01:01:42

And then you see what happened with her today. So anyway, reflecting upon that and looking at what's going on and even these accusations that have come from Corey Asbury, I wrote down these three things that just about every person who gets signed as a

01:01:56

Christian artist needs to be able to pass these three tests. Okay. Okay.

01:02:01

First of all, they need to sign or affirm in some way, a biblical confessional statement.

01:02:08

It would be great if that confessional statement could be something historic, you know, whether it's the

01:02:13

London Baptist confession of faith, I see, or the Westminster confession of faith. Sure. Or I adhere to this catechism.

01:02:22

I love the Heidelberg catechism, something, whatever statement of faith that they, that they align with something that would even include like the

01:02:31

Nicene Creed or the Athanasian Creed. Oh yeah, but it can't just be that because we need to know where they stand on certain social issues.

01:02:38

True. That includes sexuality where sex is between just a man and a woman and marriage.

01:02:45

Yeah. And, and a man cannot be married to a man or woman cannot be married to a woman, you know, things like that.

01:02:52

What sort of things do they believe? What is their confessional biblical statement? That's number one.

01:02:58

Secondly, they need to be able to prove that they have membership in a church that holds to the same standard that they signed.

01:03:08

Ah, yes. So it could be that the confessional statement that they are affixed to is their own church's confessional statement.

01:03:15

That's fine. So then you kill two birds with one stone. Right. They are in a biblical church, biblically

01:03:20

Orthodox church, Orthodox, meaning they have right belief. And then they also have a confess, a biblical confession or statement of faith.

01:03:30

And then finally, they also need to have a pastoral recommendation. Ooh, that's a good one.

01:03:36

So their pastor needs to be able to verify that this young man or woman, usually young man or woman, you don't see a lot of old people making it in the, that's true.

01:03:45

All of a sudden breaking out and making it in the music industry. But anyway, this person is, uh, has, has pastoral accountability that is able to verify that this person is a man or a woman of God.

01:03:58

And, uh, and that they are going to be able to maintain good ethical, biblical standards, even while they are out on the road or in public view of other people.

01:04:07

And bring glory to God. Exactly. Right. They are all about Christ and bringing glory to him. Yes. They are not about trying to make a name for themselves, which there was a time.

01:04:16

And some of these artists in my past that I had history and experience with, I know genuine people that, that genuinely were part of this industry to make much of Christ.

01:04:27

That really was their goal. And, uh, and I think that there are still people in the industry that are like that now.

01:04:33

I just think there are, they are few and far between. Yeah. The standard apparently has gone way down.

01:04:40

Fame messes up a lot of people. Oh, no joke. So true. So what about, what about the, the, this might be off topic, but I'm curious.

01:04:49

So what about the parable about the, the, or no, it's not a parable, but leaving the 99 sheep to go rescue the one.

01:04:57

That one's, that one comes to mind a lot. I'm about to do that one on the podcast just next week.

01:05:02

Awesome. Chapter 15. Yeah. So you want a warmer, like a, a primer.

01:05:09

Yeah. Primer. There we go. Uh, sure. What am I answering regarding that? Okay. So does that apply to any of these situations?

01:05:17

Because I see it on the shirts a lot of, you know, he left the 99 to come rescue me and that sort of thing.

01:05:23

But does that apply to this? Well, it would, if you're talking about a person who had gone astray and now they're convicted over their sin and now they come back into the fold, the

01:05:37

Lord brings them back into the fold. And so therefore, yeah, he, he left the 99 that were safe in the fold to go bring the one back.

01:05:44

That would be kind of the example there. Okay. Is that what you're saying? Yeah, I guess so. So that's the case with a person who has fallen away and has been brought back.

01:05:52

Okay. But if they aren't brought back, then they were just not of us. They were a goat. Yeah. Yeah. A goat or a wolf.

01:05:58

Okay. They weren't really of his sheep. Just making sure I had the right mindset of this, you know?

01:06:04

Yeah. Yeah. I think so. Proverbs 16, 18 pride goes before destruction and a haughty spirit before a fall.

01:06:10

And we're seeing that happen over and over again in the contemporary Christian music industry. I'm not one to say that we should completely write off the

01:06:18

Christian music industry. Oh, I hope not. I hope not. I still think it's a case by case basis. Yeah. It's unfortunate that the industry has the problems that it has, but you still.

01:06:28

A purge might be needed. Which could certainly happen in the Lord's timing. But I still think, you know, you look at an artist that you like because an artist can make independently.

01:06:38

They can be making with a label and labels aren't really doing a whole lot to follow their own artist behavior and stuff like that.

01:06:45

Yeah. If an artist gets real bad, they'll certainly cut them in this particular case. If all this had come out while Tate was still part of the newsboys.

01:06:53

Yeah. He certainly would have been removed. Yeah. So I think there was part of him. I said this before. I think part of him knew that this was coming and that was part of the reason why he came, why he got out.

01:07:02

I still hope that his repentance is genuine and we leave that between him and the

01:07:07

Lord. But nonetheless, what he did was deeply wicked. Oh yeah. And so I wouldn't play, if I was still on the radio, wouldn't be playing the newsboys or DC talk in light of this.

01:07:16

You now have two thirds of the band DC talk that are outright godless.

01:07:21

Tate is Tate might be the sheep that comes back. Right. Let's hope and pray. Exactly. Right. It sounds like he's repentant and he wants to, he wants to do the right thing.

01:07:31

We can hope that can be the case. And even when it comes to these allegations of things that he did to force men into these situations that they didn't want to be in,

01:07:39

I pray that he's admitted to all of that and that he's genuinely going to be repented before the Lord.

01:07:44

And that's going to be between him and God. But with Kevin Max, Max is not even walking with God at all.

01:07:50

Right. Like he's completely renounced the faith, but you still had, you still have Michael Tate having done wicked things, though he was a reputable

01:07:57

Christian artist. And you have Kevin Max, who's not even a Christian anymore. And so yeah,

01:08:02

DC talk. What do you say and do with that band? One of the greatest Christian bands of all time.

01:08:09

Yeah. And now when I see the phrase, Jesus freak, it just makes me shake my head.

01:08:15

Instead of having that confidence that I had back when I was a teenager in the nineties, listening to that song. Yeah, I'm a

01:08:20

Jesus freak. And now you're looking at that going, but what could that potentially mean? Yeah.

01:08:26

Oh, man. I just, I'm overwhelmed. What, so what can we do at home with, with this information?

01:08:34

Like what, what can we do anything besides pray? I mean, praying is huge.

01:08:39

Don't get me wrong, but, but can we like actively do something aside from praying?

01:08:45

Well, like I said, with the entertainment choices that you make, I mean, it really comes down to making wise choices and the music that you let your kids listen to.

01:08:54

I think that who that artist is, who the artist is needs to be taken into consideration to a certain degree.

01:09:01

Yeah. Not like you're just constantly vetting these people's lives and finding out, you know, what's genuine about them or whatever.

01:09:06

But if there's some sort of publicly outstanding sin that exists there, then you want to protect your kids from stuff that may expose them to behavior that they would later deem as being okay, because this person did it.

01:09:20

I mean, with Bethel music, they have outright said that they make the music that they make to draw people into what they're teaching.

01:09:27

That's a, that's like a gateway. Yeah. And I don't think anybody should have anything to do with Bethel on those grounds alone, though, you know, you shouldn't be giving money to them either because it's helping to further their ministry and their cause.

01:09:40

There's different things to weigh and consider, and it's going to be different for every person. This is why I've said regarding our entertainment choices, that some of these things are matters of opinion.

01:09:51

It's a Christian liberty. It's going to be different for every person, but I bring you back once again to what is said in Philippians chapter four, where Paul says, finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable.

01:10:10

If there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things.

01:10:17

Amen. All right. Well, let's finish there. We thank you so much for listening. And if you want to ask a question, send it to when we understand the text at gmail .com.

01:10:26

If you've got a voicemail to share, then don't forget, you can go to www .utt .com.

01:10:32

Click on that voicemail button and then record it from your phone or your computer.

01:10:37

And we'd love to get a question from you that way as well. All right. Let's take a moment here as we're finishing up.

01:10:44

I want to lift up Janie. Yes. And pray for her church with what's going on there. Definitely. And then we'll close out here.

01:10:51

So Heavenly Father, we thank you for the time that we have together. We pray for the Christian music industry.

01:10:57

I pray there would be like a major overhaul in this industry. They recognize their wickedness. The changes that need to be made.

01:11:04

That those who are disingenuous would be removed. Those who do not have a credible confession of faith, that they would be convicted of heart.

01:11:14

They would recognize, I need to be more solid in my faith. I need to know what it is that I believe. I need to be teaching accurately, whether it's in my music or from stage or anything else.

01:11:24

And that those who are behaving in ways that are contrary to godliness, that they would be called out and removed.

01:11:31

And Lord, that your church would be purified even in this way. Even when it comes to what gets called the contemporary

01:11:37

Christian music industry. I pray that you would protect us and guard our minds and keep us steadfast on Christ.

01:11:43

That we make wise choices when it comes to what we listen to and what we watch. And we desire that our hearts and minds would be affixed to Christ Jesus.

01:11:52

Lord, I want to lift up Janie and her church. And no doubt the difficult thing that they are going through right now.

01:11:58

I pray that there will be healing in this church that will come through the word of God. That people will continue to hold fast to the truth of the gospel.

01:12:06

And that this horrible ordeal that has happened with this unfaithful pastor will not put anybody off from the gospel.

01:12:14

But instead will bring people to a further, a deeper understanding of your word.

01:12:20

And a love for Christ and his holiness. We pray also for Chris and thank you for the message that he sent.

01:12:26

And may he be able to get back to his family again soon. Thank you for the love that you have shown to us through Christ our

01:12:32

Savior. That by faith in him we have the forgiveness of sins and everlasting life. With God forever in glory.

01:12:39

It's in Jesus name we pray. Amen. Amen. He's a chaplain.

01:12:52

Yeah. So sort of the same thing. But I don't know how that would work.

01:13:01

Obviously I'm not going to be able to give that answer to anybody. But I was like that would be nice to have something of the sort.

01:13:08

Yeah. Well you know when I was, I remember doing a show with Todd Agnew, Barlow Girl, and oh man what was that other guy's name?

01:13:19

He was a solo artist. Warren Barfield. So anyway when they invited me to come backstage and they were going to do devotions before the show.

01:13:31

And so they had a pastor that traveled with them. Yeah, see? Yeah. That would be great. So something like that.

01:13:37

In fact I know that when you have like the Winter Jam tour for example, who was the guy?

01:13:44

I can't remember his name now. But they would have a pastor that at some point during the tour would stand up and address the crowd and share the gospel and things like that.

01:13:52

So there would be teaching in the midst of it as well as the music that you're listening to. So he would serve as kind of like a tour pastor as well.

01:14:00

So checking on the members of the band and holding everybody accountable. I mean that's good and bad at the same time because he doesn't have elders to hold him accountable.

01:14:09

It's not an elder, right. It wouldn't be the same as like being in a church under eldership. Right. Where somebody's shepherding your soul.

01:14:16

I mean it's somebody keeping you accountable as long as they're able to be accountable.

01:14:22

You know. Right. I don't know. There's no good answer other than they have to be home on Sundays.

01:14:30

Well, there's one band that I know of that would do that. So they would not do concerts on Sundays.

01:14:37

So they would do shows on Thursday, Friday, and Saturday, and then they would be home in time for church on Sunday.

01:14:43

I want to say it was them, but maybe not. I know it was that one that you had already mentioned because they were the worship team.

01:14:57

They were the music. And so they were there on Sundays. With Cloverton that was the case. Yeah, Cloverton, yes.

01:15:03

But I was talking about the one that you had to pull because they were Unitarian or something like that. Oh, yeah, the pastors.

01:15:09

Well, those three guys were pastors. Oh, they were pastors. Phil Schrag and Dean were pastors. Yeah, them, them, them. Yes. Yeah. So you're right.

01:15:15

I think they were back in time for church on Sunday. Yeah. But, yeah, in that case they were heretical anyway.

01:15:24

You know, red flags or orange. No, pretty much red first.

01:15:30

Red flags start going up if they say, Oh, I love church. I love going to church. I'm like,

01:15:35

Hmm, which church do you go to? I know. So it's kind of like whenever.

01:15:41

Let me vet your church first. Before I say, Oh, great. Whenever an atheist tells you,

01:15:46

I'm an atheist, you're like, Okay, you know exactly what to expect. I know where you stand. Yes. You know, I know that you need the gospel.

01:15:52

There's no red flags with that. It's just, Okay, I know where we're going to start this conversation. But when somebody tells you,

01:15:57

Well, I'm a Christian, you go, What kind of Christian? Isn't that awful?

01:16:06

Oh, it's so bad. Yeah. It's so bad that it's come down to that. Here, I just got a comment on here.

01:16:15

It said, So on X, I had made the comment, If Corey Asbury knew Michael Tate was a sick homosexual pervert, as Asbury said, he and many people in the industry knew, and he didn't tell or warn anyone, no one should be playing

01:16:29

Asbury's music either. And then somebody commented, I had to Google these people. I mean,

01:16:35

Hey, God bless you. If it's not a drama that you are even aware of, that is perfectly fine.

01:16:42

But nonetheless, they've had a huge influence on a lot of people. So. Well, they play

01:16:49

Reckless Love. They sing it at. All over the place. I know that most churches in town are singing that song.

01:16:59

No question about it. And. It's going to be on the top 10 of CCLI, surely.

01:17:05

The girls have tried. I think it was Aria was talking to me about it. And she's like,

01:17:10

I don't sing it. But my friends tell me that it means about how, I forgot how she worded it, but her friends and her have talked about it, about how she doesn't think that it's a good song to sing.

01:17:24

Good girl. I know. She's so outspoken. I love it. And we're going to be that weird family.

01:17:30

I know. Really quickly. The users that don't like anything. All right.