Three Subjects on Today's Dividing Line

Alpha & Omega Ministries

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

Comments are disabled.

00:47

And welcome to The Dividing Line, just a couple minutes late today, thanks to technical difficulties, but hopefully they will not reoccur during the course of the program.

00:57

Maybe due to the extreme heat, we're setting records today. Record high temperature has already been reached here in Phoenix today of 91 degrees

01:05

Fahrenheit, and we might get up to as high as 93, it's going to cool off after that. But summer wasn't that long ago, none of us here really care, to be perfectly honest with you.

01:17

But anyways, we are back here. I just saw a tweet. We do not seek truth for the world, but demand its allegiance to Christ.

01:23

Do not seek its approval, but are giving it an ultimatum. That, of course, from Paul Washer, who's well known for that kind of statement.

01:31

But he's right, he's exactly right. Today on the program, probably going to be going jumbo length, 90 minutes in length, because I've got a lot to cover.

01:41

Really three major topics to cover, and if I get through them quickly, maybe we can take some phone calls. Otherwise, we'll be right up against the time barrier.

01:49

I don't know. Depends. I just don't have any idea how long this is going to take. I want to start off with the serious, the really serious, and move to maybe the somewhat absurd here on the program today.

02:06

I have been trying to get hold of a book. It's not available in the United States yet. I would have to order it from England to get it any quicker, and I'm not sure that I want to pay.

02:16

Besides that, I want to get it in e -text, and so that's going to be a while. But I was looking at a review of the book published by Larry Hurtado.

02:28

The book is called Born of a Virgin, Reconceiving Jesus and the Bible, Tradition and Theology. It's published by SPCK 2013 by Andrew Lincoln, a respected

02:38

New Testament scholar. That is, not the actor who plays Rick on The Walking Dead. Same name, different person.

02:47

Most recently serving as Portland Professor of New Testament in the University of Gloucestershire, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

02:56

I want you to hear the following two paragraphs and then speak with you from that point.

03:05

Emphasizing his own Christian faith stance and writing particularly for fellow

03:10

Christians, Lincoln offers some serious and impressive reasons for what will be for many or most a major rethinking of the matter.

03:20

Of course, others, often from critics outside the circle of Christian faith, have urged that a virginal conception is incompatible with modern thinking.

03:28

But Lincoln repeatedly aligns himself as a practicing Christian and offers observations that involve both a careful historical approach to New Testament writings and some serious theological reasons that a virginal conception, if taken literally, could actually pose a serious problem for Christian beliefs about Jesus's role in salvation.

03:47

One of Lincoln's major emphases is that the idea of a virginal conception is actually reflected explicitly in only two

03:54

New Testament writings, the birth narratives of Matthew and Luke. So far as we can tell, he urges Paul did not know the idea, nor did the writers of Hebrews or Gospel of John, for example.

04:04

So Lincoln's first point is that we appear to have a certain variety of views or assumptions about Jesus's birth, these latter texts suggesting a view that he was conceived in the normal manner and emphasizing his

04:14

Davidic lineage. There's first, there's two paragraphs. Now, I can't engage this yet for the simple reason that I can't get the book yet.

04:24

Jason Engler has been, went ahead and ordered it from England, I guess. He got a heads -up on this long before I did, and has been responding to it.

04:35

I can't say anything about the book until I get a chance to read the book. But there's another book, and I think

04:44

I did grab, well, no, it's pre -ordered as well, on historical critical studies and Christian theology.

04:54

And it's supposed to be out, I think, in a few weeks, or maybe in December, I forget when it is, but I already have it pre -ordered on Kindle as well.

05:03

I really think that for serious -thinking Christians, and I assume that the majority of the listeners, to this program,

05:12

I'm not overly entertaining, I'm certainly not fun to look at. So the only reason you would be listening to this program is, well, because you're serious about your faith.

05:23

It seems to me that one of the greatest challenges we face is the overwhelming amount of information that is coming our direction.

05:35

The overwhelming amount of argumentation against our faith. If my eschatology were such that I was constantly looking for signs in what's around us of some type of transition into an end time,

05:53

I think we're always in the end times, but I would actually be tempted to think that God never designed man to encounter the amount of data and information that we can encounter in any one given day.

06:13

I just don't think any of us can really think through it all in a meaningful fashion. We tend to become so scattered, our attention spans have dramatically decreased over the past few generations.

06:31

And I think that's speeding up, it's getting worse. And as I listen to public discourse, as I listen to Christian discourse,

06:39

I see fewer and fewer people who can see big pictures, who can see the interrelatedness of ideas.

06:47

And as a result, a much more shallow Christian theology seems to satisfy many. Seems to satisfy many.

06:58

And in light of that, I think one of the greatest challenges we're going to face is how do we as believing

07:03

Christians deal with this massive rush of unbelief?

07:11

And especially within Christian theology, how do we deal with biblical studies that are done by people who start with fundamentally non -Christian presuppositions?

07:26

Fundamentally non -Christian presuppositions. The impact of naturalistic materialism, the impact of viewing

07:36

Scripture as merely, not just as recognized as Scripture has a history.

07:43

We all have to recognize that. We have to recognize that the Scriptures came to us in a particular fashion.

07:51

I'm so appreciative of Michael Kruger's works on the canon right now, because he deals in that area.

07:58

In fact, he's going to be joining us, we've scheduled a time for Michael to be joining us in January. I listened to a,

08:05

I just happened to catch a call on Catholic Answers Live that really caught my attention.

08:10

They were going after Sola Scriptura with this Lutheran guy. And I sent it to Dr. Kruger, who is the new president of Reformed Theological Seminary in Charlotte.

08:20

And since it's right down his alley, he's dealing with these canon issues regularly. He's agreed to join us, but he's so busy, in January to discuss that very thing.

08:33

Anyway, I recognize that the

08:41

Scriptures have a history. We have to look at them textually, we have to look at textual criticism, we have to look at canon process, all those things.

08:48

I'm not saying that there's anything wrong in any of that, but in recognizing that Scriptures have a history, many people just automatically then leap out of the worldview of the writers of Scripture and the teaching of Scripture into another world, and then try to rescue something of their

09:12

Christian faith in the process, and the result is normally pretty ugly. If you listened to this, you heard

09:23

Dr. Hurtado referring to Dr. Lincoln as a

09:29

Christian, his own Christian faith stance, writing particularly for fellow Christians. But fundamentally, he is asserting, from what

09:40

I have read, that we cannot really view the concept of the virgin birth as either historical or even biblical.

09:53

Now, notice, and even argues, that the virginal conception of taken literally could actually pose a serious problem for Christian beliefs about Jesus' role in salvation, specifically in regards to, was

10:05

Jesus really human? So evidently, if he is not the son of Joseph, in the literal, physical sense, then he's not really human.

10:17

Again, well, I'm only going on second -hand information at that point. But here's my real problem. One of Lincoln's major emphases is that the idea of a virginal conception is actually reflected explicitly in only two

10:32

New Testament writings, the birth narratives of Matthew and Luke. Now, the fundamentalist shuts down the conversation, doesn't read the rest of the book, does not engage the arguments of the book, and says, if it's in those two, it's enough.

10:51

It doesn't have to be anyplace else. Word says it.

10:58

That's enough for me. Move on from there. Okay. But at the same time, there's something very troubling when someone who talks about their own

11:13

Christian faith stance can question a belief that they admit is actually taught two places in Scripture.

11:24

What is all this leading me to? The more I listen to the whole modern approach in the

11:39

Academy to Scripture, the more I'm convinced that what I've said for a long time is absolutely true, and that is, there is very clearly a spiritual aspect to faith in Scripture.

11:57

Jesus himself said, my sheep hear my voice. Now, again, automatically, the graduate of most theological seminaries in the

12:07

United States and Western culture automatically says, Jesus never said that. I have to somehow re -envision what

12:16

John was attempting to communicate when he made these words up and put them in Jesus' mouth type stuff.

12:25

That's the thinking of many people. And that's what has led to the general degradation of authoritative preaching and teaching in the

12:37

Christian church today, is because the vast majority of people are supposed to be doing it. Don't believe we really know what

12:42

Jesus ever said, because they've been taught these things. So what

12:51

I'm saying is, I think each one of us, if you're serious, if you want to engage our culture, you're going to have to read this stuff.

13:01

You're going to have to encounter this stuff. You're going to have to know who the Jimmy Duns and the N .T. Wrights and the Larry Hurtados of the world are, and you're going to have to be able to, as we've said many times before, demythologize scholarship.

13:12

But at the same time, you're going to have to recognize that there are certain presuppositional issues that have to be first and foremost in your thinking.

13:21

And I would say that absolutely presuppositional to a serious examination of the

13:26

Bible and a defense of the Bible and a recognition of where people completely miss the boat in their approach to the

13:36

Bible is right here. That is, Christian truth is pan -canonical.

13:45

Christian truth is pan -canonical. What do I mean by that? It extends, is not to be found in mere isolated texts.

14:03

And so when modern scholarship can chop the New Testament up, and they do so with allegedly wonderful motivations.

14:11

We want Mark to be able to be Mark. We don't want, you know, that diatessaron thing and, you know, tation and stuff, trying to make one gospel out of four.

14:20

That's just not honoring Mark's purposes and things like that. Okay, there's everything good and recognizing we need to read

14:25

Mark and Mark's context. Mark had a purpose, and Mark had an audience, and Mark had authorial control over what he included and did not include.

14:33

Whenever we do synoptic studies, we talk about that. Same with Matthew and Mark and Luke and Paul and so on and so forth.

14:38

But that's not where it ends. They then take that and run with it to where you've got

14:44

Mark by himself and Luke by himself and Matthew by himself, and Paul's way out there, and you can even make

14:51

Paul contradictory to Paul. And then you can cut Paul up into parts because, well, you don't think he wrote the pastorals and blah, blah, blah, blah.

14:58

And so you just chop the New Testament. You shatter, I guess that's the right term to use, you shatter the

15:04

New Testament into all these disjointed parts. And then you start picking one up and go, well, you know,

15:10

I don't see the virgin birth in this one. So that's one different view. And then I don't think it's here either.

15:16

That's another different view. And so you end up with this multivalent view, and hence nobody can have any idea what

15:25

God's truth is. There is no God's truth. That's why systematic theology has become a part of the history department.

15:31

It's no longer the queen of the theological education because no one really believes anymore, at least in most seminaries, that we can even really know anything at all because there isn't one truth.

15:42

There are many quote -unquote Christian truths. And so maybe for Matthew and Luke, the virgin birth story is important, but obviously it's not for John because he doesn't repeat it, as if John doesn't know about the others and as if John's gospel is meant to stand alone, separate from the proclamation of the church, all the rest of that kind of stuff, which is,

16:06

I think, one of the fundamental errors that people make. But all this takes us back to,

16:14

I think, on a presuppositional level, we have to recognize that there is a purpose in God's revelation of His Word and that that truth of God is found pan -canonically all across the canon of Scripture.

16:33

This is not to create the monstrosity that some people have of trying to, you know, for example, many people will look up a word and they'll define it as it's found in John and then cram that meaning into Paul or into Matthew or things like that.

16:55

Inappropriate. That's not what I'm saying. Not even suggesting it. But what I am suggesting is that John and Paul and Peter are part of one woven fabric and the same strands of truth are interwoven through each of them.

17:17

You can trace those strands and you can assume their unity. You do not assume their disunity.

17:24

Remember, I know that one of Dunn's big, well, back then it was only big work when

17:29

I was in seminary, was unity and disunity in the New Testament. That was what he was talking about.

17:38

The problem is, in my experience, sadly, in most seminaries, once you start going there, pretty much all you talk about is the disunity part.

17:49

And the unity just becomes this sort of nebulous spiritual feeling thing,

17:56

I guess. But the point is, I have to ask myself the question, how did the

18:06

New Testament writers look at the Old Testament? Was there a divine truth that could be discerned that had been delivered to God's people that was communicated clearly?

18:23

Did they believe that? And am I really handling the New Testament appropriately when

18:29

I start with assumptions that will automatically require me to reject the worldview and conclusions and teachings of the peoples whose writings

18:38

I am ostensibly studying? So when

18:46

I read this, one of Lincoln's major emphases, the idea of a virginal conception is actually reflected explicitly in only two

18:54

New Testament writings. That means it's divine revelation. And I don't just go, and that's enough for me, and I walk off. I want to ask the question, why do you assume, if it's in Matthew and Luke, that Paul doesn't know about it?

19:07

Especially in light of the fact that, and this thing bugs me so much about liberals who just simply assume things without proving things, or assume things based upon the fact, well, that's what a fundamentalist would believe, or that's what an orthodox person would believe, and so therefore that can't be true.

19:26

When Paul writes to the Corinthians and he talks about what Jesus taught on the subject of marriage, he says, when he's repeating what

19:34

Jesus actually said, in all of the canonical Gospels, he says, this is what the

19:41

Lord said. And then when he goes beyond that, he says, the Lord did not say this, I say this. Paul knew exactly what was in the

19:48

Jesus tradition of the Gospels. Accurately. So he didn't know about the virgin birth?

19:57

John didn't know about what Matthew and Luke said? Really? And Paul meets with these guys and he doesn't know either?

20:08

I'm sorry, that doesn't make a lick of sense to me. And if you're saying, well, but if they knew, they would have repeated it.

20:16

Why? Why? I mean, we've been doing this program now for how long?

20:23

I mean, just on the Wayback Machine, you can listen to all the way back to 1998.

20:32

I've done a lot of talking since 1998. When I hear people say they're listening to the

20:37

Wayback Machine, I go, you've got to be kidding me. Why would you do that? It doesn't make any sense to me. But anyways, people do.

20:44

And I've talked about a lot of things.

20:51

Do I start every program by trying to reiterate everything I've said since 1998? No, I've got to recognize that that's not possible to do.

21:03

And my audience, I've got to assume a certain level of knowledge. Now, if I get a caller and I have to re -teach something, great, fine, wonderful.

21:14

But the idea that, well, if Paul knew about it, he would have written an entire treatise about it. Why? Do you really think when he reiterates the core gospel in 1

21:24

Corinthians 15, that he had no idea what Matthew and Luke had said about that subject? It was just completely new to him?

21:32

Or just completely unknown to him? I don't think so. There is an issue of whether you assume, from a naturalistic perspective, the ignorance and contradiction of the

21:48

New Testament writers, or whether you assume, in light of their very view of the Old Testament scriptures, and in light of the promises of Jesus, and the promises of the

21:57

Holy Spirit, that God is going to guide his church.

22:02

And he's going to give them that which is theanoustos. That really,

22:09

I think, is what it comes down to. And there is such a massive difference, massive difference, between the perspective and the approach of the unbelieving, skeptical scholar and the one who has, you know, this says, his own

22:38

Christian faith stance. Well, you know what? Christian faith stance, that says something to me.

22:44

It says something to me about the nature of scripture. And I don't think a person with a Christian faith stance, that's a real faith stance, approaches the

22:54

New Testament on the basis of saying, well, if it's not repeated over and over again, then it's not to be accepted. These are things we need to think through.

23:05

And I've certainly been thinking about these things since seminary. I mean, you know, most of the classes that I took in seminary were way to my left, and I had to learn how to sift through the bad stuff and hold on to the good stuff.

23:25

Well, I think it's becoming an ever more challenging and difficult thing to do. And we all have to,

23:33

I think, think through those things. So I'm looking forward to reading this book and interacting with this book and hopefully having more to say on that particular subject.

23:43

Okay, put the clutch in and let's catch up on some other things.

23:50

Someone on Twitter asked, when will you wear that Springboks jersey again? Was it a one -time thing?

23:57

Okay, I'm trying to talk about something important here. You know, if I wear it,

24:03

I wear it. I have worn it since then, haven't I? It just didn't happen to be on dividing line days.

24:10

And it might be something that I don't wear again until it warms up.

24:16

I mean, it's pretty warm today, but anyhow. You may recall back a few months ago,

24:26

I went to Texas. And I did a presentation on the many fraudulent claims of Ergon Kanner.

24:39

And we live -streamed it. If any of you are watching on YouTube right now, the only reason you are is because of that.

24:46

Rich went, ooh, this is cool. A new toy, let's go. And that's why you're watching on, yes, yes.

24:54

Shiny thing, let's do it. And so I mentioned at the time that there were other things going on that I could not talk about.

25:08

Well, I'll talk to you about it now. Let you know a little bit about it, just to give you an idea.

25:16

As I was sitting in the airport, which airport was I at?

25:22

Because I flew to Texas from Atlanta.

25:29

So I was in the Atlanta airport when I get a phone call.

25:36

And I am informed that a young man had passed out flyers at Arlington Baptist College about the presentation.

25:47

Now, he's a former student. He had said, hey, would you like the students there to know about this? And I was like, of course.

25:54

They're the ones who, of anyone. I mean, if Ergon Kanner has any integrity at all, the people he would want to know the most about this would be his own students.

26:08

I mean, if he's being truthful, if he's never lying, then this should be right up front.

26:16

If he's an honest man. Right up front. Let the students hear. Let the students judge.

26:22

Let them hear both sides. That's why I've offered, hey, I'll come to Arlington. I'll debate Kanner on his claims.

26:28

Right in his own classes. And he knows it. And he knows it will never happen because he could never do it. He knows it in his own heart.

26:35

That's what drives him mad. Is he knows it. So, I get a phone call.

26:43

And he had passed out the flyers. I guess the church had,

26:51

I think the church had printed them off, if I recall correctly. I don't recall. I remember some discussion about, you know, we need to make sure that the information on it is right and stuff like that.

27:02

I get a phone call. And the college and Ergon Kanner had filed a criminal complaint.

27:11

A criminal complaint against the individual who is a former student.

27:18

Taking classes there. And they decided to include the pastor of the church and yours truly in a criminal complaint for criminal trespass.

27:31

Now, realize, I'm not in the state of Texas. I was either,

27:37

I forget when he passed him out. I was either in Arizona. Or in Atlanta. One of the two places.

27:42

But I was nowhere near Texas. When this happened. The idea being, in fact, the information that was communicated to the police is that I was on staff at the church in Texas.

27:55

Which, of course, I'm not. Little falsehood there. But anyway. So, I'm like, you're kidding me.

28:04

I'm being charged with criminal trespass and I'm not even in the state of Texas. It's based on a conspiracy that somehow

28:11

I, ooh, you go and go break the law and all this kind of stuff? Really?

28:17

Seriously? Then I heard the line that made it all make sense.

28:24

Because, you see, the police said, as I recall, to the pastor.

28:31

All they're asking, well, first of all, I said, Now, Dr. Cantor and the school say that James White has libeled and slandered

28:43

Dr. Cantor over and over again. And they will be suing him. But right now, all they want him to do is leave him alone.

28:52

So, in other words, if you all will just cancel your presentation, this will all go away.

29:02

If you just cancel the presentation, this will all go away. So they got the police involved to try to stop the presentation.

29:14

Which, if you've watched it, is pretty much just letting Ergon Cantor speak for Ergon Cantor.

29:22

Just letting his own words speak for themselves. Because when you lie, as often as Ergon Cantor has lied, all you've got to do is let him talk.

29:35

Now, my hope has always been that if Ergon Cantor and his attorneys actually are seriously thinking about suing us, that they would realize what this would involve.

29:47

It would involve depositions from everyone who would have knowledge of the issues.

29:53

Which would include the Cantor's mother, who has been a part of his stories.

29:59

Did she take off her burka as she got into the baptistry? We'd like to find out. And, of course, we would be showing up at Ymir Cantor's office.

30:07

Because Ymir Cantor knows the truth of this, too. And he would need to swear under oath. Dr. Cantor, where was this picture that Ergon says was taken in Turkey?

30:15

Where was it taken and when? Where was Ergon Cantor actually born in light of his own claims?

30:25

How many times did he go to Turkey? Could you explain the divorce decrees and the legal going back and forth in regards to not being able to leave the

30:35

United States? There are many times, Dr. Ymir Cantor, you sat on television stages with Ergon Cantor while he was claiming to be able to speak

30:46

Arabic and do debates in mosques and all the rest of these things. And over and over and over and over again,

30:54

Ergon Cantor says that he had always lived in a majority Muslim nation. Dr. Ymir Cantor, could you tell us which majority

31:01

Muslim nation Ergon Cantor ever lived in prior to coming to the United States? Could you name it, please?

31:07

Sir. Under oath. Sir. Could you explain?

31:14

We'd have to go to the folks at Liberty. Oh, yeah, we'd be going to the folks at Liberty.

31:20

And we would be filing subpoenas for them to testify under oath. Could you explain why it was that your website lied about Ergon Cantor?

31:30

Say he said he came here in 1979. I have screenshots of the Liberty University website.

31:37

Who told you that he came here in 1979? Liberty University?

31:43

And upon which basis people enrolled in your programs?

31:49

And I think the reason it hasn't happened is that those folks know that's exactly what would happen.

31:58

And maybe they're going, don't you dare. Don't you dare drag us into this. Because we will tell the truth.

32:06

We'll have to tell the truth. It may be the only thing that would force them to tell the truth. They should have told the truth from the start if they were

32:12

Christians. The whole idea of suing people, of course, is a demonstration that the person doing it doesn't know the

32:19

New Testament or does not care to be subject thereto. Because that's what he's doing right now in suing

32:26

Christian pastors in trying to suppress the truth about his own lies. But that's what was said.

32:35

And the whole reason was to try to stop a presentation. A presentation that, even as it was,

32:42

I had to leave stuff out. I could do another presentation. Add the stuff that I didn't include. But to stop a presentation where, basically,

32:52

Eric Encantor spoke about Eric Encantor. Well, that's what was going on.

33:03

Recently, those charges were dropped. I think any district attorney with a semblance of commitment to justice looked at that and went, seriously?

33:16

Really? But here's the freaky thing. This is the weird thing. This is the thing that makes me go, huh?

33:25

Because when the young man contacted, the Arlington Police Department kept asking, well, what's going on here?

33:32

When the charges were dropped, the officer said, well, the college is satisfied with your and Dr.

33:43

White's responses. And has, hence, not chosen to pursue the matter.

33:52

And I'm like, eh? Our responses? You mean,

33:58

I went ahead and did the presentation and we've put it on YouTube? That's the response?

34:06

And as was properly said by another who was viewing all this, that's exactly how bullies act.

34:14

When they're called out, when their lies are exposed, they save face.

34:20

Oh, well, if they did, we want them to. Yeah, we showed them. Wow. Folks, I'm telling you,

34:34

I've been trying to say for a long time, the great evangelical cover -up is not only sinful, it not only demonstrates that people don't care about what takes place behind the pulpit of the

34:49

Christian church, but when you enable someone like this to behave in this way, you are encouraging them in further sin.

34:59

It is sinful for Ergin Kanner to be suing people who posted the

35:04

Marine videos. It is sinful for Ergin Kanner to think he can copyright lies and claim to be a

35:12

Christian. And when Ergin Kanner was invited to speak at Southern Evangelical Seminary as an apologist on Islam, when

35:24

Ergin Kanner was invited to sit on the dais as a scholar at the installation of Richard Land as the president of Southern Evangelical Seminary, that was sinful.

35:34

You have an unrepentant man who is suing Christian pastors, who has lied about his past and claims to be completely exonerated, and you are enabling him, and you are encouraging him in his sinful behavior.

35:52

That's all there is to it. It has consequences, folks. It has consequences.

35:58

There you go. There you go. Amazing. Amazing stuff.

36:09

Amazing stuff. Well, we move on. We shift gears.

36:17

I'm going to play a few things for you. Yesterday, when I got back from my ride, a bunch of tweets showed up about a new trailer for the new

36:28

World Order Bible Versions movie. I didn't know that was going to be the title. Sometime before,

36:35

I think it was before I went to South Africa, Stephen Anderson, the pastor of a

36:45

King James -only Baptist church here in the Valley of the Sun, evidently wrote in and asked if I would be willing to be interviewed on camera for a documentary that they were doing.

37:02

And if I recall correctly, when you write to our ministry, the messages go through Rich Pierce, which means that many of them

37:20

I never see. Because Rich has to go, I wonder if he'd even want to be bothered with that.

37:31

And most of the time, it's a little tough to get through the firewall there. Let's just put it that way.

37:37

And my recollection is that sort of off the cuff, while chatting in the break room or something like that,

37:44

I said, oh, by the way, that crazy Stephen Anderson guy wrote in wanting to know if you wanted to do this interview.

37:50

And I was just going to trash that. And I said, well, I'd be willing to do that.

37:57

He was sort of like, you would? Yeah, I'd be willing to do that. Now, a lot of people are going to question the wisdom of doing that.

38:07

Well, I figure if they're going to put a film out, you might as well have someone who tries to speak the truth.

38:18

Now you say, oh, but they're never going to let you say enough to, I mean, they're going to twist your words. Well, so,

38:23

I mean, the first thing I said was, well, obviously, if we were going to do it, we would have to record it as well.

38:29

I mean, we need to record the audio and maybe have a camera running and stuff like that.

38:36

Because King James Only folks are that way. I mean, the nastiest people that I've ever encountered in ministry have been

38:43

King James Only Fundamentalist Baptists. Let's be honest. We've never had Muslims outside of our church holding signs.

38:51

We've never had Roman Catholics outside of our church, but we've had King James Only Fundamentalist Baptists. I mean, let's face it.

39:01

They just tend to be a pretty odd group. And so I said, yeah, let them know as long as we can record it too and have that available.

39:15

Then, sure, no problem. I think I surprised them. And so, especially because I said, well, you know,

39:23

I'm going to be in South Africa. I don't have time to do it beforehand. I'll squeeze it in between South Africa and Texas.

39:33

And so I think it was a Tuesday, Monday, Tuesday, something like that, right after I got back. We got together in my office.

39:40

If you want to see what my office looks like, it's nothing special. Now, I did not expect this to go as long as it did, okay?

39:50

I expected just sort of a little camera, a few questions. I was, I don't know,

39:55

I was thinking half an hour, maybe 45 minutes, something like that. Today, just today,

40:02

I pulled the audio. Now, I knew who Steven Harrison was.

40:07

I've seen the clips. I've seen the thing about urinating against the wall. I've seen the anti -Calvinism stuff.

40:14

I didn't know a lot about him. Obviously, he's most famous for getting tased by the cops at the border of Arizona and California.

40:23

That one went viral. I wish

40:29

I had known one more thing about Steven Harrison that I didn't know when we got together. And it wasn't about his eschatology.

40:36

He's into this. He and Sam Gipp are going at it about some things, and so he's sort of off on his own on that stuff.

40:45

But he's into a different view of eschatology than a lot of these others.

40:50

He's not a dispensationalist and stuff like that. Okay, I didn't know about that. Someone on the channel just said,

40:57

Harrison's most famous quote. That's probably true.

41:04

That's probably true. But anyway, what

41:09

I wish I had known and I've been thinking, if I had known this, would

41:14

I have done this? And I don't know. I've been thinking about it. And I can't even answer my own question.

41:23

If I had known this beforehand, would I have agreed to do this? I just don't know.

41:28

But he is rabidly, I know he's rabidly anti -Calvinist.

41:34

There are a lot of rabid anti -Calvinists out there. Most of them don't have a clue what Calvinism is. And he's not a stupid man, by the way.

41:42

I'll talk about that in a moment. He's a sharp guy. But he is not only opposed to the

41:50

Lordship of Christ, he preaches a repentanceless gospel, which is not a gospel at all.

41:55

It's a false gospel. So I consider him heretical on the gospel. So I just don't even know.

42:02

I don't think I would have been nearly as cordial at the start if I had known that.

42:08

It started coming out during the interview because he raised 1 Corinthians 1 and the

42:16

New American Standards rendering of those who are being saved and those who are perishing, which is a much more accurate rendering of the original language and those who are saved and those who perish, which is what's found in the

42:30

King James. And he raised that, then he raised John 3 .36, and so on and so forth.

42:37

And eventually, as we got toward the end of the conversation, I started realizing, well, this guy's got some major, major theological problems on a very, very important level.

42:48

But like I said, he's a smart guy. Check this out.

42:55

Now, if you look at the trailer, I'm looking at the trailer freeze frame thing right now.

43:03

You can see my hand and my old CDs. And in fact, you can see an old radio.

43:11

There's actually a turntable up there. You can see my William Wallace sword right behind him and my

43:18

Maximus sword around my desk. And my computer's in the background.

43:25

That's where I sit. And we're sitting in these two sofas that I have over there. And you can see a picture of me and my wife.

43:33

It's one of those cruise pictures where it's formal night. And they always come around the tables and take pictures of the couples on formal night on the cruises.

43:44

And that's the picture that's right above my hand in the freeze frame there. Well, right behind that is a pretty high -quality

43:51

MP3 recorder. And that's where I put it. So the quality turned out really nice. I mean, there's no straining to understand what's being said during any of this at all.

44:00

It turned out really, really nicely. But, for example, let's give you just an example.

44:09

Let's listen to this. At one point, well, here, listen to this. I'm not going to lie to you.

44:14

I am not someone who's fluent in Koine Greek. I'm the two semesters guy.

44:19

That's why I don't go back to it because I'm not qualified to. Okay, but let me say this. I do speak several languages.

44:25

So I understand the principles of the differences between foreign languages. I understand translation.

44:32

I've actually worked as a professional translator from German into English. So we started talking

44:48

German, you know, and we didn't provide translation. So maybe, but it wasn't a church service, so it's okay.

44:55

So please do not call Michael Brown about that one. But anyhow, or Sam Waldron, either one. I don't want to get in trouble with anybody.

45:00

But the point is he's not a stupid man. You know, I mean, no one is saying that.

45:09

In fact, it makes him all the more dangerous, to be honest with you, because he's not. So anyhow, it was a very, very, very.

45:20

Oh, and here's another one. Check this little clip out. The real areas where the, you know, the only places where the

45:29

New World Translation mistranslates stuff is that the very issues with Watchtower Bible and Tract Society happens to disagree with the Bible of Christianity.

45:34

You must not have read Job 6, verse 6 in the New World Translation. Because in Job 6, 6, in the

45:40

King James Bible, it says, Can that which is unsavory be eaten without salt? And is there any taste in the white of an egg?

45:46

And in the New World Translation, it says, Is there any taste in the slimy juice of the marshmallow? So that's something that they changed that has nothing to do with the

45:58

Watchtower, all right? So what I'm saying, what I'm saying there is that, you know.

46:04

You memorized that? Could there be? You memorized that? It was a good tool. Oh, my goodness.

46:10

Well, you know, when children would have the New World Translation, it was a good way to show children that they needed to get on the

46:16

King James. So I looked him up. Now, the interesting thing is, the new 2013 has changed it.

46:25

The new 2013 NWT now reads exactly like the ESV. It no longer has the slimy juice of marshmallow.

46:34

But he was right. He was correct. I checked the older, the ones that he would have had access to before 2013.

46:41

So again, not a stupid person in any way, shape, or form. He's well aware of this.

46:47

But they put out the first trailer for the new movie.

46:54

The first trailer. And a lot of people were immediately commenting on it.

47:01

In fact, one thing I forgot to do is I wanted to re -review the questions and answers.

47:12

I'm sorry. The comments on this thing. Because how many comments are we up to now?

47:19

Let me see here. 175 comments. The first comment.

47:27

Great job. James White has led many young believers away from the true word of God. His Catholic handlers are pleased.

47:38

Oh, wow, wow, wow. I am so, so happy. I can't wait to watch this movie.

47:45

I watched a debate with James White and some other weak guy that defended the KJV Bible. Has to have been

47:50

Jack Moorman. Because that's the only other one that's on YouTube. And James White was making this old guy look stupid.

47:56

All I kept thinking was if only Pastor Anderson was here, or was the one that defended the KJV Bible, he would destroy

48:02

James White. Only a month ago. And here it is. I am so freaking happy. And there's all this.

48:09

I tweeted last night. Go look at this thing. In fact, no, I didn't just tweet it. I blogged it.

48:15

I blogged the trailer and said, read the comments. They are absolutely incoherent.

48:25

I mean, this man's followers. Wow. Brian Sweeney.

48:33

You got James White to appear? Ha ha, way to grab the bull by the horns. This should be great. I'm definitely going to get a copy of this just to see

48:39

James' false accusations look dumb. Now remember, they haven't seen anything yet.

48:47

It's absolutely, absolutely amazing. Jude 134.

48:54

I almost lost my faith years ago as a baby Christian because of James White and the confusion he brings with his Bible perversions.

49:01

James White needs to get saved. And I pray the Lord will open his heart and eyes to the truth. And this is the same nonsense

49:06

Muslims use to discredit the Bible. Can you believe this? This is the same nonsense Muslims use to discredit the

49:12

Bible. Who's out there debating Muslims on this? It ain't Pastor Anderson. Satan is using

49:19

James to confuse people more and more. Getting saved is so easy. Praise the Lord Jesus Christ. I'm just reading this stuff going, wow.

49:27

Absolutely amazing. Well, what's got them all woohoo is something in the trailer.

49:34

And that's a shame. Let's listen to the trailer, shall we? Here's the trailer.

49:41

New World Order Bible Versions. I'm sure that Pastor Anderson should be very happy that we are promoting the trailer for his film.

49:49

So here's the trailer for the film. And of course you can find it on YouTube if you want to watch it as well.

49:57

Check that. I love the music too. Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

50:05

He didn't say the thoughts, he didn't say the ideas, he didn't say the doctrine. He said my words shall not pass away.

50:14

You know, to touch this book and to study it is one thing. To appreciate it from a distance about what men, women, children had to go through so that you and I could read a book today called

50:25

A Bible Without Fear of Persecution. It's easy to say this number. 10 ,000 people were burned, stoned, deboweled for reading this book.

50:38

But you use the term conspiracy theorist probably 20 times in your book. Do you believe that there's no conspiracy to change

50:45

God's word? No, I think entire Bible translations exist today to change God's word. The reason

50:52

I used conspiracy theory is that you have to have evidence to back these things up.

50:57

Not just, well, it looks like that to me. What about all the people out there that tell you, oh, the

51:02

Bible is filled with contradictions? I hear it all the time. Couldn't there be an agenda to create contradictions? You know, here's what they say.

51:10

They're against the King James Bible, but you can't pin them down on which one they like. Oh, do you like the

51:15

NIV? Well, the NIV's it. Well, do you like the Living Translation? Well, the Living Translation. Well, do you like the New American Standard? Well, the New American Standard.

51:21

And then, you know, here's the answer they'll give you. Well, I go back and I read it in the Hebrew. Try to impress you, make you feel like you're dumb or something.

51:28

I, you know, I read it in the Hebrew. And here's what they think. They want to make you feel like you need them. Like you can't read the

51:34

Bible on your own with the Holy Spirit, with God helping you. You can't understand the Bible. I need the preacher, man.

51:39

I need the priest. They're trying to take us back into the dark ages. But what is my final authority?

51:45

The King James. Your tradition. Hold on. This is my final authority. Your tradition that those English words are more important than the

51:52

Greek words from which they were translated. But hold on. We're no longer, we're no longer, we're no longer doing anything.

51:57

Hold on a second. I think we've, I think we've. Okay, all right. I think we're done. We got it. We've, we've done it all. The Bible has told us that Luther...

52:05

Now, right there, I'm going to let it continue on, but right there was the very end of the interview.

52:12

And I'm turning off my microphone. And the whole idea is, ah, man, you got him.

52:21

He ran off. He couldn't handle you. One little thing that they didn't include.

52:29

Okay. I'll play that section. I have it queued up in the audio file here.

52:35

In that audio file, that particular statement,

52:43

I think we are done. Since their arrival in my office was three hours and two minutes.

52:53

Three hours and two minutes later. And from the time where we rolled cameras and say, okay, we're starting now.

52:59

Okay, let's start. Two hours and 31 minutes into the interview. Two and a half hours into the interview.

53:10

That's why I called for Pastor Anderson last evening on Twitter. And I'll do it again right now.

53:18

Why don't you just provide? I mean, we can do it.

53:23

We can put the audio out. Anybody can listen to it. But you've got the high quality stuff.

53:29

You've got the HD stuff going. Okay. We just had some little cameras going and the MP3 player. Put it all out.

53:37

I think it was a very interesting conversation. Put the whole thing out. Two hours and 31 minutes, however long it would be, from start to finish.

53:46

Let everybody listen to our entire conversation. All the stuff that's not going to end up in the film. Why don't you just put the whole thing out?

53:54

Because I think your followers, from what they're saying, would like to hear you trashing me.

54:00

Right? If that's really what happened. Maybe they'd like to hear what happened in the two hours and 31 minutes before I said,

54:09

I think we're done. Don't you think? Was there something you wanted to add? Two hours and 30 minutes.

54:14

You've done entire debates in less time than that. So, I mean, that speaks volumes.

54:20

Oh, sure. Yeah. Game all the time in the world. And there was a particular context to why

54:25

I said, okay, I think we're done. And I'm going to play you the entire context. The whole thing.

54:31

16 minutes worth. But let's finish listening to the trailer.

54:39

Satan was cast out of heaven for wanting to be like the Most High. Wanting to be like God.

54:45

Look, the NIV, after attacking Christ's deity, after attacking his preexistence, after attacking the fact that he was born of a virgin, that he had no beginning, that he had no ending, that he was

54:57

God in the flesh, it's now accusing him of wanting to be like the Most High. He is the

55:03

Most High. And yet the NIV has not only attacked him by removing all these scriptures that prove that he is the

55:13

Most High, now they've just flat out said, you're going to be cast out of heaven because you're trying to be like the

55:19

Most High and you're not. I mean, this is an assault on Jesus. This should show you how satanic these new versions are.

55:25

From the Garden of Eden, there's been an attack on the Word of God. Even before the Bible was completely written down, there was an attack on the

55:32

Word of God. And you think it's different today? These are the heroes, but this is the evidence. So who's the villain?

55:38

The villain is anyone that wants to take the place of God. That says,

55:43

New World Order Bible Versions. And it's got some nice graphic stuff going on.

55:50

Weird music there at the end. Not sure where that was coming from, but sort of sound like somebody who didn't really know how to play an organ was playing an organ.

55:59

But anyways, what happened was, as I said,

56:05

I started figuring out after the 1 Corinthians chapter 1 conversation that this guy has some odd viewpoints.

56:12

And then we went to John 3, 36, which in the

56:19

ESV says, Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life. Whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

56:25

And the King James, it just simply has believe and believe, does not believe and does not believe. The problem is, it's

56:32

HaPistuon Aistonhwion, the one believing in the Son, has eternal life. HaDeapithon Tohwio, but the one, and again, how do you translate that term?

56:45

For him, at the beginning of the interview, he was quite clear. King James is my final authority. We never got around to which

56:54

King James. He said we would discuss that, but we went too long discussing other stuff. And he says, that's my presupposition.

57:01

It's the words of this text are my final authority. Not the Greek, not the Hebrew. The words of this text are my authority.

57:07

And so, what's behind those words, he knows what's behind those words, but the final authority is that final translation that he has.

57:16

That 1769 Blaney revision of the King James version of the text. That's it for him.

57:22

And so, he has a real problem with the fact that the basic meaning of apitheo in Koine Greek was to disobey or be disobedient.

57:39

And that's what was written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. That's irrelevant to him now, and that's what's so dangerous about his perspective, is that what was written originally is irrelevant to him.

57:54

But that's the way it is. And so, I started getting a good idea at that point.

58:00

Well, people could understand this, and I could play you the whole section. But we were getting toward the end, and let me play a few little clips here for you.

58:12

In order to make their doctrinal point, in so much that they're even altering the text away from something that was the usage of the common man.

58:20

You know, for example, in this William Tyndale... Now, the reason I had that one outlined is, it's going to be very, very interesting.

58:26

When I play you the section that I'm going to play you, on hell, he's going to abandon what he just said.

58:35

Very clearly, there is a double standard going on, and I expressed that to him.

58:40

In much of King James -only -ism, there is a, in the thought of those who propose it, such as yourself, there is a coalescence of your understanding of Christian theology with the

58:52

Word of God itself. So that you interpret your understanding of the

58:59

Bible with the Bible itself. And that's why I don't think you see the fact that you're doing the double standard thing.

59:06

And the real concern I have is, it doesn't allow you to be challenged as to your perspectives.

59:17

And that leads to damage to the person who holds that view, and especially if that person's in a position of authority.

59:25

That's my concern. Now, that's two hours. Right there, we're two hours and five minutes into the conversation at that point.

59:39

And so we discussed a few other things, and then, listen to this. ESV... Okay, we're running out of time, so let's skip.

59:47

Now, did you catch? Who said that? Steven Anderson said... ESV...

59:52

Okay, we're running out of time, so let's skip some stuff. And let's just get to two important points.

59:58

Okay, so he recognizes we're running out of time. We've been at this for a long period of time.

01:00:05

This has been a long one, alright? So, we get into a discussion of the doctrine of hell.

01:00:16

The doctrine of hell. And I'm going to play you the whole thing. It's about 16 minutes long.

01:00:22

That's going to burn up most of our time. But I just think you need to hear, what was the context of where I finally said, okay,

01:00:30

I think we're done here. I think we've gone around this...

01:00:37

We've run around the gum stump enough times now. We're done. Are Pastor Anderson's followers right to go, oh, he's been vanquished, he ran off, he couldn't answer the questions, or was it just simply, you know, after a while you've said everything you need to say.

01:00:53

Now I realize they're probably not going to take the time to listen to this. They don't care. They don't care. They're not truthful people.

01:00:59

They're not people who care about truth. They just care about their ra -ra -ra type thing. I understand that. I'm not trying to reach those folks.

01:01:08

I am trying to reach the folks who actually might fall into the prey of this type of teaching and then are still really believers.

01:01:14

I can't tell you how many people come up to me, yeah, I used to be King James only, I hope you don't hold that against me. But I figured it out eventually, thanks, you know, and now

01:01:22

I understand how to do theology and stuff like that. There's been lots of folks like that. And so that's why

01:01:27

I even engage with the Stephen Andersons of the world and was willing to spend the three hours that I did in this particular situation.

01:01:35

But listen, he knows what the original languages are, but fundamentally he comes up with a belief.

01:01:44

At the end of this he's going to be saying, you know what? Jesus roasted in hell. Jesus was a burnt offering in hell.

01:01:53

Why? Because the King James says so. Not because the original Greek says so, but because the

01:01:59

King James says so. It, well, I'll just let you listen for yourself.

01:02:06

You'll see how many times I tried to respond. Eventually he just started talking over everything I was saying.

01:02:12

And that's why eventually I said, you know, I think we're done. I think we've done what we need to do.

01:02:18

So here is the entire conversation. What I'm going to do to speed up a little bit,

01:02:24

I'm going to kick it up to 1 .2, okay? Those of you who listen to High Speed, stop complaining, all right?

01:02:30

I'm going to kick it up to 1 .2 so we can get through it a little bit faster. But here is our conversation.

01:02:36

The question he asks me in our discussion of Gehenna, Hades, Tartarus, what's the nature of hell, what's the nature of Hades, life after death, his whole point is to say, see, if you follow the

01:02:52

King James as your final authority, you'll have a different belief than if you follow the original

01:02:58

Greek. What the apostles themselves taught is what I would like to point out to him, but he can't see that.

01:03:03

So here it is. This is the last thing I want to talk about, but I do want to go a little bit in depth on this because it's an important subject, and that is the doctrine of hell.

01:03:12

Basically, the word hell as it appears in the King James Bible. So the word hell in the

01:03:17

King James Bible occurs 54 times, okay? 31 of those times are in the Old Testament. 23 of those times are in the

01:03:24

New Testament. In the NIV, for example, also in the New American Standard, the word hell occurs 13 times.

01:03:32

Only in the New Testament. So basically, if you're reading in NIV the word hell never occurs in the

01:03:37

Old Testament. If you're reading in the New American Standard, the word hell never occurs. And in the New Testament, it only occurs a total of 13 times.

01:03:44

As a person who defends the doctrine of everlasting eternal punishment, the King James is one of the greatest barriers to defense of that doctrine.

01:03:51

Okay, so let me ask you this. Can I explain why that is? Absolutely.

01:03:57

Because it does not recognize the distinction between the realm of the dead and the place of eternal punishment. It translates hades as hell when that is not what the functional meaning is.

01:04:10

And so by doing that, it gives those who oppose the doctrine of eternal conscious punishment ammunition to say, see, your

01:04:18

Bible's been wrong here all along and now the modern translations have figured it out. Okay, so let's start by just talking about the

01:04:23

New Testament for a moment. Let's just only look at the New Testament. Three words for hell. One of them is not really relevant to the discussion.

01:04:29

Tartarus. I don't think we're really disputing that. So let's just talk about, I'm going to pronounce it. Hades and Gehenna. I'm just going to pronounce it like an

01:04:35

American. Hades and Gehenna. So that's how pastors all over America are reading it from their pulpit from the

01:04:41

NIV or whatever version. Hades, Gehenna. Okay. That's the English pronunciation of Hades. Okay. So, Hades is used 10 times in the

01:04:51

New Testament. Gehenna is used 12 times. Now, when I looked up in the

01:04:58

Greek text, which times, because, you know, the King James just says hell. There's no differentiation made between Gehenna and Hades and the

01:05:04

King James. Notice, he knows that. in the Greek New Testament to see, okay, which word is being used in which verse, it was very apparent to me that every time the word

01:05:12

Gehenna was being used, we were talking about the final place of eternal torment, meaning the lake of fire.

01:05:17

The place in outer darkness where, you know, both soul and body of the unsaved will spend an eternity in literal torment.

01:05:25

And every time the word Hades was being used, it was always referring to the current place of fire and torment.

01:05:32

Intermediate state before the final judgment. For example, perfect example is Luke 16. You know, the rich man is in Hades.

01:05:39

He lifts up his eyes being in torment. Whenever you see the word Hades, there's often a reference to being down to Hades.

01:05:45

And where is death and Hades put in Revelation? Right. Exactly. So, basically, what we have here is that every time

01:05:51

Hades is being used, we are referring to where a person who is not saved will go the moment that they breathe their last breath.

01:05:59

Right? For example, the rich man died. He lifted up his eyes. He's in Hades. He's in hell. In the King James.

01:06:05

Okay. Are you saying that that place in Luke 16 where the rich man is burning is not hell?

01:06:12

No. There's nobody in hell yet. That's final judgment. Death and Hades are cast into the lake of fire.

01:06:18

Hell is the final... You're exactly right. The New Testament writers were exactly, differentiating between the fact between the current place of torment and that final place of torment where judgment has been pronounced over them.

01:06:32

And these are two completely different locations because, for example, Hades, or what

01:06:37

I would call hell, but the place a person dies when they're not saved and they just breathe their last breath. Okay. That place, according to the

01:06:45

Bible, is always referred to as being down. It's referred to as being, you know, descending into hell, being down into hell, whereas when we talk about Gehenna, we're talking about outer darkness.

01:06:56

So there's a big difference between in the heart of the earth, down into Hades, and being in outer darkness, right?

01:07:02

You're confusing me. Okay, I don't... What have I said that's confusing? I thought you were agreeing with everything I'm saying. You're making a point for me.

01:07:08

But I'm not because I'm not done. I mean, we're on the same page. I'm just making sure we're on the same page. I'm not trying to argue with you yet.

01:07:15

It sounds to me like what you're recognizing is that the New Testament original language makes a distinction.

01:07:21

Yes, it does. That the King James does not make. Does not make the distinction. Yes, exactly. I fully understand that. How can that then not be?

01:07:28

Well, aren't there many other places where the King James does not make a distinction? Like, for example, between agape and phileo?

01:07:33

They're both love in the King James or parody? But the point is that very lack of accuracy in the translation has been used to argue against the meaning of an eternal consciousness.

01:07:45

So you're saying that the place that a person goes when they're not saved and they die could not be accurately described as hell?

01:07:53

Because the New Testament writers make a distinction, yes. But the English word hell, okay, cannot refer to the place where a person dies?

01:08:01

Not if you want to. what do you want a translation to do? You've just told everybody that the

01:08:08

New Testament writers made a purposeful distinction between the two that you can't make because of your position.

01:08:14

I can. But here's the thing. Every time I looked up Hades and Ghena, it's obvious which one is being referred to by the context, which is why

01:08:21

I was even able to ascertain the difference. So why do the King James translators not make a distinction? For example, when the

01:08:26

King James Bible says he's going to destroy both soul and body in hell, that cannot be the place in the center of the earth because no body has gone to that place because it's only after the bodily resurrection of the unsaved after the millennium that you don't believe in.

01:08:40

I'll let the listeners see. Okay, but here, I haven't made my point yet. I'm just trying to make the point.

01:08:45

I'm just trying to make sure that we're on the same page before I can make the point. And I wanted to make sure that you, being someone who is fluent in Koine Greek, could verify that I've correctly understood the distinction between Hades and Ghena.

01:08:56

Have I correctly understood it? Okay. That's what I wanted to make sure. Okay. So what I'm saying is that when a person dies that's not saved, they're going to Hades, okay, according to, if we were to be using the

01:09:10

Greek word, they're going to the current abode of where people are in torment, they're in flames, right?

01:09:16

So let me ask you this. Should I, if I'm going out and evangelizing and giving the gospel, am I expected to warn someone that if they don't get saved they're going to go to Hades?

01:09:25

And will anyone in America, will the average person in America have any idea what

01:09:30

I'm talking about when I use a foreign word and tell them, if you don't get saved you could wake up tomorrow in Hades?

01:09:37

Wouldn't it be more appropriate for me to say, if you don't get saved you could wake up tomorrow morning in hell?

01:09:43

And then they would actually understand English instead of me using a word in a foreign language that they don't understand. I mean, if we don't speak in words that are easy to be understood, we speak into the air.

01:09:51

So if I'm trying to evangelize and I say, hey, beware of ending up in Hades, that's not, nobody understands,

01:09:56

I'm speaking into the air. An advocate for translation in a language that went out of style 300 years ago is now arguing that we should not make the proper distinctions between Hades and hell so that people can understand us better because we need to use modern language.

01:10:09

I'm sorry, but you just... Who determines what the word hell means? But you just... If I ask...

01:10:14

But in answer to your question, in answer to your question, anyone who ends up in Hades is going to go to hell. Eventually, right.

01:10:20

So you could very easily say your eternal destiny is going to be hell and not even have to explain the intermediate state unless they brought it up.

01:10:26

But I couldn't really take them to Luke 16 without confusing them with a foreign word. A person presenting

01:10:32

King James only -ism would actually say you cannot explain what words mean. How many times do you have to explain what fetch a compass means?

01:10:38

How many times do you have to explain let not the little children? You mean...

01:10:43

Suffer. Let not the little children. You mean... Suffer the little children. Suffer the little children to come to me and forbid them. Ever explain that? Ever explain what suffer means?

01:10:49

Of course, we're not supposed to just read the Bible to people. We should also expound what the word means. I think you just answered the question. But if I'm talking to people and I'm using a foreign word that 99 % of people don't understand, am

01:11:01

I even speaking English? If I use the word Hades, am I even speaking English? Because if I take a dictionary off the shelf, Hades is going to be the underworld of Greek mythology.

01:11:08

That's going to be definition number one. Well, I'll be happy to explain them in the context of any Bible verse that I use. But the New Testament writers that used

01:11:15

Gehenna, which by the way was a garbage dump outside of Jerusalem and I'm sure everybody had explained where that was too.

01:11:22

So let me ask you this. The NIV uses the term Hades eight times because the term

01:11:29

Hades is used ten times in the Greek New Testament. Eight times they transliterate it as Hades. They leave it untranslated as Hades.

01:11:36

Okay. Two times they change it to something completely different. The grave. Okay. And that is in Acts chapter two about Jesus Christ because in Jesus Christ it says he was not abandoned to the grave neither did his flesh see corruption.

01:11:49

In the King James in Acts 2 .31 the Bible says this spake he of the resurrection of Christ that his soul was not left in hell neither did his flesh see corruption.

01:11:57

So in the King James, if I'm going to be King James only, if I'm going to believe that the King James is my final authority then I believe that Jesus Christ's soul was in hell for three days and three nights.

01:12:06

Now, if I'm reading the NIV I'm not going to get that. I'm just going to think we're talking about only the bodily aspect of his body coming out of the grave not the fact that his soul came out of hell.

01:12:15

Let me ask this. Do you believe that Jesus' soul went to hell? Hades. Not hell. There's nobody in hell.

01:12:20

But a minute ago Okay. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Okay. Let me say it in a way Okay. Let me ask you this.

01:12:26

Do you believe that Jesus' soul went to the same place Paradise.

01:12:31

that the guy was burning in Luke 16? No, of course not because Hades had two compartments. Everybody knew that. I don't believe that.

01:12:37

Oh, really? I don't believe that. Where's the poor man in Luke 16? Where's the poor man in Luke 16? He's not in heaven?

01:12:43

He's in Hades. He's in heaven. No, no. See, this is You would never survive a debate with a conditionalist on this because I don't know what a conditionalist is so I'm probably not going to The people who deny eternal conscious punishment

01:12:54

It's a huge movement today. It's Rob Bell or whatever Oh, please. Someone serious. That's not what

01:13:00

I've heard of. Okay. No. Hades had two compartments. Yeah, I don't believe that. It's a fact.

01:13:05

Okay, what if I show you What if I show you Old Testament scriptures of the saved being in heaven? Read the Jewish scriptures.

01:13:12

Read the I'm sorry. Read what the Jews themselves understood at the time of Jesus. When Jesus The ones who crucified him?

01:13:18

No, no. Read what they understood? Yeah. What? You don't think that's relevant to understanding the background of the Old Testament? They didn't understand

01:13:24

Christ's message. So? So why do I expect them to understand anything else? Any meaningful Any Wow So because they rejected

01:13:31

Jesus means that everything Jesus said to them about the core bound rule Okay, how many of you would have given up by now already?

01:13:38

Okay, seriously Would have just thrown your hands up in the air and said, that's enough. Okay, been through here. I mean, seriously

01:13:44

How do you know what the core bound rule is? Huh? How do you know? I can tell you what the core bound rule is From the context in the King James Bible because it explains it in Matthew 15.

01:13:51

Okay, where'd they get it from? You don't know because you won't look at those sources. The core bound rule He's bringing up something that we shouldn't even care about because he's saying this is your stupid tradition

01:13:59

Oh, oh, we shouldn't even He's saying, he's telling hold on, he's rebuking them for their core bound rule. Stephen, this is why Stephen, this is why

01:14:06

I hope and pray that you will think about this because of the fact that when I debate Roman Catholics I can demonstrate to them the core bound rule according to the missionite

01:14:15

Do you know what the missionite was? Do you know what the missionite was? Jewish fables? The missionite was the traditions that Jesus was specifically talking about Rebuking He was rebuking them

01:14:25

And it's good to know what they were so we have a background I'm not interested in what they were to be honest Well, then you can't argue against Roman Catholics like I can because I'm going to take the time to find out what was going on back then and the point is

01:14:34

To be honest with you I'm not interested in arguing with Roman Catholics because I would rather preach the gospel to Roman Catholics I am interested in convincing them and explain the

01:14:42

You hearing this? I hope you're hearing this if you have an apologetic bone in your body Listen to what he's saying The gospel to them in a way that they can understand not simply preaching at them but preaching in a way they can understand

01:14:52

Let me just make this clear real quick We have a fundamental difference in doctrine here I believe that Jesus Christ was in a place

01:14:58

His soul was in a place of fiery torment for three days and three nights before the resurrection I think that's serious So we have a fundamental difference in doctrine here and it is based upon which

01:15:06

Bible we're reading Hold on My King James Bible says Hold on a second My King James Bible says that his soul was in hell

01:15:13

But you know that the Greek word is hades And you know that consistently that does not refer to a place of punishment

01:15:18

What's my final authority? It should be what was written by What is my final authority? Your tradition

01:15:24

This is my final authority Your tradition that those English words are more important than the

01:15:29

Greek words from which they were translated But hold on My final authority is the King James Bible Therefore if I open my

01:15:34

English King James Bible and in Acts 2 -31 it says that Jesus' soul was in hell and in all 54 mentions of hell it's always a bad place it's always fire and torment then that I cannot believe anything other than that So when

01:15:47

Jesus said to the thief Today you will be with me in paradise Right That was hell No because the thief is going to be with the

01:15:53

Father in heaven and that speaks to the Today you will be with me in paradise

01:15:59

That speaks to the Trinity Jesus was dead for three days and three nights And here's the thing Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob I didn't even caught that one

01:16:04

He said that they were not dead but living He said God's not the God of the dead but of the living So if Jesus Christ went to the same place of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob then that would mean that he wasn't even dead

01:16:12

He would be living Wow Hell is the place of the dead So you think Jesus So Jesus went to the place of the dead Okay So Abraham Okay How many of you would have given up by now?

01:16:23

I'm still plugging along He gave his life He didn't have to go to hell I believe that he went to hell for three days and three nights

01:16:28

He was a burnt sacrifice Every sacrifice is a burnt sacrifice I consider that Okay, why Hold on Why is every sacrifice a burnt sacrifice?

01:16:34

I'm not even going to bother anymore with that Why was Passover roast with fire? You won't even listen to the fact that Abraham is in a place with the leper

01:16:45

In heaven In Hades I believe that he was in heaven There's nowhere that says that Abraham is in Hades So because Here is a perfect example of where your commitment to an

01:16:56

English rendering that you've recognized is inaccurate to the original text No, I did not say that it's inaccurate

01:17:01

You said that you saw a difference between Hades and Gehenna I'm saying I don't believe that in the English language the distinction between Hades and Gehenna is necessary I believe that the word hell

01:17:10

Hold on Aren't there two words in Greek that could be translated as the same word in English or German or Spanish? I'm saying that the word hell is an accurate translation of Hades and an accurate translation of Gehenna That's what

01:17:19

I'm saying So before the English language Someone in channel just said And there is a sword nearby? Which if all you read was the

01:17:25

New Testament in Greek you would have been misled here No, I don't believe so Because why would it come to your conclusion? No, because if you were reading the

01:17:31

Greek New Testament you'd read Luke chapter 16 that Hades is a place of fiery torment and then you'd read the same author

01:17:38

Luke tell you in Acts 2 .31 that that's where Christ's soul was Why do you think Christ's only hope Christ wants to get out of there

01:17:43

He says his soul fleshed in hope because he's not going to be left there If it's a good place why does he not want to be left there?

01:17:49

He wants to get out of there Why was the Passover roast with fire? Why is every sacrifice a burnt sacrifice?

01:17:54

So you know what I've just proven though? Okay, now here I'm trying to I'm trying I'm trying to shut this down There's Nothing's happening here

01:18:02

He's just He's just preaching along I've proven Circularity? No, I've proven I've proven that a person who has the

01:18:09

King James Bible as their authority is going to have a difference in doctrine from someone who has the NIV as their authority

01:18:14

Only because of your traditions You do not have to interpret it that way The word hell is used 54 times You do not In other words all sorts of people using the

01:18:21

King James version come to the very same conclusions I did It's just his abject unwillingness to allow anything to even interfere with his traditional interpretations that is driving his

01:18:34

We're almost done Believe it or not Those of you who are pulling your hair You have to interpret it that way According to your doctrine the

01:18:41

King James is wrong to put the word hell in Acts 2 31 That's not even a doctrinal issue That's just a simple translation

01:18:48

Okay, according to your opinion you believe that the King James Bible is wrong to use the word hell Although 99 % of people would disagree with you

01:18:56

Because 99 % of people outside these doors if I ask them if an unsaved person dies and goes instantly to a place of fiery torment down in the depths of the earth what is that place called?

01:19:07

99 % of people will say that place is hell That's what the English word means When you start using all the folks out there to determine what's right and wrong

01:19:13

I'm not saying what's right and wrong We're no longer doing anything Hold on a second I'm using that to determine what the word hell means in 2013

01:19:19

What does the word hell mean? Those people out there don't determine those things I think we've

01:19:24

Okay, alright I think we've got it We've done it Okay, so there's where you get the little clip in the trailer that says

01:19:35

I think we're done and I'm taking my microphone off Okay, that is two hours and 31 minutes into the interview

01:19:45

Okay, so And 16 minutes of that on that subject

01:19:50

And that's what ends up in the trailer Now, the sad thing is he went on from there

01:19:58

I could play another five minutes He wouldn't stop Even once I've stood up I've left that area and I've walked over to my desk

01:20:07

He just He won't stop He just goes on And finally I just have to say to him Look, stop This is

01:20:13

This is You know This is ridiculous But I won't I won't even bother to cause any of you any further stress

01:20:20

But that was the context that isn't in the trailer Now, I know you can't put all that into a trailer

01:20:25

But my question is why did you put that into the trailer at all? There is only one reason why you put that in the trailer

01:20:34

And that is to get your base all revved up Oh, man You got him

01:20:39

I mean, this is This is politics This is NBC ABC CNN 101

01:20:46

It's dishonest politics But that's what it is And I really have I really wonder how many

01:20:51

I'm sure some of these guys on this list that I'm looking at here Even if they took the time to listen to that which

01:20:59

I doubt very many of them will do You know this Brian Sweeney and Jude 134 and, you know stuff like that Even if they took the time to listen to that would they really care that what the actual context was was well, you know if you just interpret the according to King James version of the

01:21:27

Bible because it does not differentiate between Hades and Gehenna Even though I recognize there's

01:21:33

Even though the apostles differentiate The King James does not And so I follow that And as a result

01:21:39

I think that Jesus was a burnt sacrifice for three days in hell Hmm I think he might want to put that out there as the context

01:21:49

What do you think? But he didn't And that says everything doesn't it?

01:21:56

Yeah It does say everything doesn't it? So Here's my thinking

01:22:02

Here's my thinking To Stephen Anderson I would challenge you

01:22:10

I would strongly invite you It would obviously not be difficult for you at all to take that that master file

01:22:23

You only had a couple cameras running It would not It would not be difficult I mean even if you just took one wide angle

01:22:31

I don't care as long as all the audio is there Doesn't matter to me Put it out

01:22:37

Put the whole thing out there The two hours That would be what? Two hours and 31 minutes according to my audio recording

01:22:45

Two and a half hours of you and I discussing this stuff I think that would be very interesting

01:22:56

Put it out there I'd be happy for you to do that Now if more trailers come out and there's more of this a little bit of here a little bit of there no context and a specific desire to be trying to communicate something then we're going to have to put it out and I'm going to have to look and see what we got on the cameras and it's not going to look very pretty and I think you would be doing yourself no good if you didn't put it out there

01:23:28

Be on your channel We'll just link to it and let people join

01:23:33

Look I recognize for your followers it wouldn't matter what

01:23:39

I do I mean there's people in here that think because I have a goatee it's demonstration of Satanism I mean look

01:23:48

I can't I cannot reason with people like that because they're not reasonable and so they're never going to like what

01:23:58

I have to say I understand that no problem not an issue but I think for this just simple honesty that you just need to put it out there and then put what you want into your film and then anybody can just go and look at that and see what the context was

01:24:13

I think that would be the way to do it Don't you think? I found it interesting when I first in fact I shot him off an email immediately when

01:24:19

I saw the little bug when your picture first showed up and it had author

01:24:25

King James Bible controversy and that we know and for a guy who can't stand

01:24:31

Gale Ripplinger that's the kind of thing Gale Ripplinger would do so you know

01:24:37

I just I just found that really suspect the little tiny things you got to sneak into the trailer to impress your people yeah well

01:24:47

I just I just saw one Robert Warren puts makes me want to run out to my front yard and shout at Parbar Westward forward the causeway into it

01:24:57

Parbar which is one of my favorite quotations of the King James Version of the Bible yes and Prince Asbel 45 minutes ago said the dividing line is live right now let's watch and see

01:25:10

James White's comments on this whole fiasco I don't think it's a fiasco I think you know

01:25:15

I was more than happy to answer whatever questions these folks asked of me and I did it without asking them to send them to me beforehand by the way

01:25:32

Stephen Anderson pointed out a typo in the second edition the King James only controversy which

01:25:37

I had no idea of and it was it wasn't a typo it was a typesetting error we had to change all the

01:25:45

Greek and Hebrew I had to personally re -enter all the Greek and Hebrew in the second edition because we changed fonts we went from using the mounts font in the original to Unicode and somehow a space or something got interpreted by the software as an aleph and so there is

01:26:04

Sinaiticus is actually cited for a reading and it's not there and I'm glad I'm glad he read it closely enough to find that I really appreciate the guy is not stupid and that's why

01:26:14

I have to hold him account for putting this in the trailer because he's not stupid he did this on purpose there was something obviously on purpose in it so now you know what the context was some of you are now hairless as a result of listening to that but hey um there is there is there is even more of that kind of conversation actually that was

01:26:34

I think that was the toughest part it really was I think most the rest of the conversation is much more interesting uh on uh and much more relevant to the subject actually so I'm really hoping that the folks over there uh with uh

01:26:48

Steven Harrison's folks will uh will say you know what we'll go ahead and do that we'll go ahead and put put that out otherwise we'll have to put the audio out and that's sort of boring it'd be more fun to watch it uh because at one point we high -fived each other

01:26:59

I mean there's all sorts of things like that so anyways thanks for listening to Dividing Line today um probably gonna try for Friday can't do it

01:27:08

Thursday but probably gonna try for Friday if I don't have net issues where I'm going to be we'll try to work it out then thanks for listening see you then