Christians and Depression: Exploring Biblical Counseling with Gary Knapp DMW#207

Exploring theology, doctrine, and all of the fascinating subjects in between, broadcasting from an undisclosed location. Dead Men Walking starts now. Hello everyone, welcome back to another episode of Dead Men Walking podcast.

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Love those guys for what they do for the show and being able for us to go to conferences and bring you content all to bring glory to God. So we want to get right into it. We have someone in studio. I love in-studio interviews and conversations because it's just harder to do it over Zoom, you know, when you have someone next to you.

Gary Knapp’s Background and Call to Ministry

But he's been a pastor for a long, long time. We're gonna get into it. I say long, long, but he'll tell us. It's Pastor Gary Knapp. How are you? I'm doing well, Greg. I'm good to be with you. I'm gonna give you the chance to give us your intro and your bio.

How about that since you're in studio. It's a little easier when you're across from someone. So give us the origin story of Gary Knapp.

Give us a little background, you know. The Reader's Digest version. Sure. Yes. Do they.

Still have that? The Reader's Digest? I loved that growing up. I used that.

Phrase all the time, Reader's Digest. And I've often thought, is the Reader's.

Digest even still there? I think the younger generation wouldn't know what that is, but I would go over to Grandma and Grandpa's. They had a subscription and I loved the.

Little humor sections. Humor in uniform. Yeah, there was the word thing at the.

Back. Yeah, it had like the word thing and the daily laughter. Yeah, very good. We're dating ourselves a little bit, right? Yeah, and it's also showing my ADD. You're supposed to be introducing yourself and now we're talking about the Reader's Digest.

So go.

Ahead. Give us the info. I hate questions like this. I give a sure. You know, what I'd want to say most of all is I am someone that God has been very kind to. God brought me to know him. I was around 20 or 21, raised in a Roman Catholic home.

I knew there was a God, believed in one God, the Trinity. I knew Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary and died and rose again, but I didn't know God. And God very graciously brought me to himself and immediately had a sense of call to the ministry.

I didn't know what that was gonna mean. I just knew I was supposed to serve God. My pastor at the time put me on a track to go to Bible College and came out and started serving as the assistant pastor at the church where I was saved, a church called Springfield United Brethren Church, which became later Christ the Word Church here in our area.

And married, we've got six children. In the midst of my early married life, I had a very real experience with depression. And God taught me a lot about him, about himself through that and me. And you know, so I'm a pastor, but my main work now is as the director of a biblical counseling ministry here in Northwest Ohio.

And I really know that God used my time, I tend to say, in the abyss to bring me to know him more closely. And I trust to make me more useful to people who need God's help through our biblical counseling.

Ministry. Yeah, and that's kind of what we wanted to talk about a little bit today was biblical counseling. I don't think in almost the four years that I've been doing this podcast, it's really ever come up as a subject, although we've danced around it with some terms and things like that.

And I thought it would be interesting to have someone like you in that profession with your pastoral experience, being a friend, going to church with you, both of us at Christ the Word, to talk about that.

Because I kind of want to know, and maybe you can tell the listeners too, what's your definition of biblical counseling? Because I feel like, I'm just going to preface this, I feel like just like many things, there's a large spectrum, a wide spectrum on one side and the other of what some believers think that is.

But how do you define it? And how do you.

Practice it? And let me just say, I think the term biblical, so our ministry is called Stillwater's Biblical Counseling Ministry, and even being determined to say biblical counseling, because you might assume, well, can't you just say Christian counseling?

And the truth is that there is much that is called Christian counseling that isn't necessarily biblical counseling. We have a number of people who come to our ministry having gone to a Christian counseling ministry and didn't continue because they were concerned about how little of God's Word they were hearing through the counseling that they received.

So just even that determination to say it's biblical, which means we are taking as our foundation the fact that there is a God, we were made by Him, we must know Him and walk with Him and do His will if we are to fulfill the purpose for which we were made.

And it's not that we deny certain realities of our, we are biological creatures, right? So we know we have a brain and we have all these things that psychology and psychiatry will often, that's where they're going to go first primarily.

We don't deny that those things exist and can't even play a role in what's happening with us, but we believe we're spiritual creatures and we need to begin there and that we believe that God's Word addresses life in this world.

And it's just as true now as it was when God spoke to us through His servants and His Son. He wasn't caught off guard by 2023 and the marriage problems in 2023 or what people are facing, that God's Word has something to say to us always.

Psychology, Secular Counseling, and the Search for Self

Yeah, yeah, no that's good. I think it is.

Good to to highlight biblical because like you said, I mean even the word Christian and anything now has so many meanings. We even have to dig down and kind of define, well what do you mean by Christian, right?

Of course. What do you mean by love? What do you mean by these words that we just kind of throw around in our culture now? Very many different definitions depending on who you're talking to. I guess I would say too, which has always piqued my interest, is when I was in high school and a couple years of college, my psychology courses were always the most interesting.

I mean you'd get me into an accounting class, I might not show up. You know, I'm overslept that day or I'm out doing something I shouldn't be doing. But a psychology class, I didn't care who the teacher was, I just really loved the material.

Very interesting to me how God designed the brain, how personalities work, how all those things, and how medicine can and can't affect that, sleep patterns, all those things, birth order, just find it very interesting.

But then as I was in my mid to late 20s reading through the Bible too, and then even looking at some of, you know, you look at Freud and some of these other guys, Jung, and psychology always seems to point back towards you.

You're kind of the center of everything in that, and how do we fix self and all these things. And then you read the Bible, and the Bible is very selfless. It's very die to self, you're a slave to Christ, it's his will not my will.

And I always found, because even in the 90s and the early 2000s, Christian psychology became a very popular term even within the church. And as a youngster I went, well they kind of seem like an oxymoron to me.

Like when I, in my head growing up, when I heard of like a Christian counselor, I was thinking of like a Christian psychologist or something like that, and it didn't make sense to me. And probably because I didn't have a really good experience of actual biblical counseling, maybe from pastors or elders or things like that, which I believe we have that at Christ the Word as members of that church, and what you do too.

So maybe comment on that, like what's your thoughts on psychology as a whole? You touched on it a little bit, but psychology is, like secular psychology as a whole, does that play a part at all in biblical counseling?

Do you look at that and say, there's things we can glean from that? Or hey look at God created the psyche, so he's Lord over that, and we can, you know, there's so many questions. So that's five questions, you can answer any one you want.

God's graciousness even to fallen man has resulted in man coming to discover and know things, even as unbelievers, that are true, say in science or with medicines or whatever. And so it's not that psychology or psychiatry is devoid of truth entirely.

The problem is when I'm going to look at whatever discoveries that psychology and psychiatry has made through the lens, and it is a set of lenses. First of all, I think we need to say in most cases there is no God.

And if secular psychology and psychiatry is going to give any credence to the notion of God, it's very minimal. And so we just got to say we're not looking through the lens of there is a creator. Man isn't viewed as a spiritual being, we're animals, highly developed.

And so that whole view, we're looking at the creature, and we're not beginning with the creator. And we're looking at the creature, primarily biologically, including the brain and its chemistry. And then of course, you know, those fields would highlight significantly our past, the influences on us and our upbringing, society.

And so I'm thinking of something, you know, that Jay Adams once said, that those fields of help tend to be archaeological expeditions, by which we're we're digging through the past, to find justifications for our present behavior.

And I know that might sound oversimplified. But I think at the essence of that view of secular counseling, man is often excused, let off the hook. Or I think the Bible, even when we're wronged, and we are wronged at times, right?

Sure. It's going to call me to recognize the truth that I do wrong myself against my creator first. And that even when I'm wrong, God expects things of me. Being wrong doesn't give me justification to be ungodly.

Sure. And so I, you know, those would be some of my.

Immediate, yeah, no, that's really good to read. I like the term where he said off the hook, because I feel like we've been seeing that even within the Christian church in a lot of these personality tests and things.

That's been a hot button issue on my podcast for last year and a half people writing in going, what do you think about the Enneagram? What do you think about the what is it Briggs and Briggs-Myers? Almost said Briggs and Stratton.

That's a lawnmower. And you know, look, we've talked, I've talked about in the past about, you know, where like Enneagram is rooted in and things like that. But what I found the biggest harm is, is people will use it as an excuse or crutch of well, that's just who I am.

Because here's what I struggle with is that that crutch, but also realizing those things have some validity to them. I worked in sales for eight years, I saw probably 50 to 60 ,000 people between my 18 stores per year, I interacted with that many people probably by the end of year three, I could either tell a joke or within the first two minutes I knew what personality type they was and I would shift my sales approach to that.

If they're type A or B, if they're phlegmatic, if they're more melancholy, maybe they're a little more extrovert, introvert. And so that's a real thing. People kind of fall into these weird personality buckets.

Birth order is a fun one too that I like to toy around with. Firstborn versus baby of the family. There's tendencies there. So we do understand that, you know, now I know I'm getting kind of into psychology,.

But I have a concern even in the biblical counseling world where there there are people who don't want to acknowledge some of these truths because they think it's being unfaithful to God and his truth.

It's a nod towards psychology and psychiatry and we must never. And it is simply true that God, being the creator, he has made us. We're distinct from each other, certainly we have our similarities, but it is not wrong to acknowledge, say for example, that someone is more extroverted and outward and someone's more an introvert as long as we're not going to define ourselves by these things and say this is what I am, primarily what I am, or it becomes excusatory for me to not do the things God commands me to do, whether I'm an extrovert or an introvert.

I think for example, you know, the Psalms tell us to shout to the Lord and clap our hands and it doesn't say if you're an extrovert do those things and if you're an introvert, you know, skip to verse 7.

Right, don't go journal by yourself. Right, so we can acknowledge there are things that are true in the way that God made us, but we have to understand and define ourselves in the terms and with the understanding that Scripture gives us, and we want to go other places because we're all looking for a way off the hook, Greg.

Yeah, we got that from our first father, right? Yeah. So we're conniving, we know how to do that, and you know sometimes psychology, psychiatry, and even Christian counseling will leave us a door cracked that far open that we can think we can get through, but then there's the Word of God that's, there it is, always true, saying what is always said, and telling me who God is, and you know I think that often the troubles we're dealing with is because we are so focused on ourselves that many of our issues are because God is not large enough in our eyes, and we're not contemplating who he, we're wanting to know who we are all the time.

Yeah. In this way that I think is, it's very, you know, self-discovery, and who am I, and what I'm, and Scriptures don't, the Scriptures don't call you and me to discover ourselves, really. Yeah. They call us to discover God, and the, I think the declaration of Scripture is that the more you and I pursue knowledge of God, the more, the better, if we want to use the term health, we are in spiritually and mentally, and in our relationships.

Culture, Identity, and the Church’s Response to Depression

Yeah, so you've been doing this quite a.

While, and I thought this was, would be an interesting question, because I thought this. Have you seen a difference, or a propensity towards, or even more difficulty in the way that you approach sessions with people due to the reflection of the culture?

And what I mean is, in the last 10 years, I feel like it's been a, me first, find your own truth, which, right, your truth, no, there's the truth, right? Right. Kind of self-fulfill. We see this a lot in Western Christianity, too, and big evangelists, you know, big Eva, as they say, very, God wants you to be fulfilled, wants you to feel a certain way, wants to take you a certain way.

I'm wondering if in biblical counseling, and just probably pastoring in general, if that's been harder to kind of combat, because I truly believe many of us as Christians do, even if we don't want to admit it, we do reflect our culture far too much.

Even if it's minimal, you know, I don't like to admit it, but there's things where I'm reflecting the culture around me when it's not Christ, it's just the secular culture. So is there, you know, over the years, has it become more difficult to kind of remove that everything's me, or fulfill my desires, or has it always been that way in counseling?

It just shows.

Us a way different ways. There's nothing new under the sun. So this has been true of us, but certainly in certain eras of time, you know, we can point to certain periods where God has been at work, and the effect of that is always that God becomes great in our sight, and we become less in our sight, and God has been gracious to make that happen at certain points in history.

You know, we certainly seem to be, you know, we're more than, I say more than ever at least, that's the danger, right? I'm gauging off the lifetime I've lived. I don't know if it's more than ever. I can't speak to 1300 or whatever, but this creating our own truth and reality, I mean, it has been embraced in a wholesale way, in the world in a way it couldn't have in the 1300s now, right?

Because there wasn't the way to broadcast this and make it known in a worldwide way, like it is now. So, you know, you and I are very much up against this battle of people increasingly thinking truth begins within them.

Truth is whatever is true to them, that they can define what they are. I can proclaim my gender is different than what my Creator made me with. So, and you know, even as we come more into the church, as you were talking, I was thinking that, you know, I think much of modern Christian music, if you were to boil it down, its message is I'm important to God, and I know it.

Yeah. You know, when you listen to.

Yeah, Jesus is my boyfriend. Music. That's what we called on the podcast.

Yes. And listen, I'm, I thank God that I'm important to him. Yeah. But there's a real danger in me becoming the focus over and above God. And you know, the great thing is that God, God has spoken to us about the realities of daily life.

So you know, you're gonna, you're gonna have people who are gonna say, Okay, I'm a Christian, I believe in the Bible, but I'm having troubles, whether I'm struggling with depression, or I need to go to those who don't know God, because the church doesn't really get real life.

I come here on Sunday, and I hear sermons. Yeah. And, and I do think there's something for the church to consider about this. Why is it that our people are running to those who don't know God when they're depressed or anxious, their marriage is struggling?

You can certainly lay it at their door ultimately, but is it the case that the church is kind of unwilling and unable to bring the Word of God to bear in people's real life? So, you know, our ministry, we get a lot of people who are just sent to us by churches, their, their church to just say, you need to go to a counselor, you need to go to a counselor, and our ministry is gonna listen to churches, you can shepherd your people.

You know, we're not saying there's not ever time to reach out for some help. But by default, almost for churches to say to their people. Yeah, I've had a few couples more than a couple in the last year come to me from a church looking to their pastor for help with their marriage and being told, we don't, we don't do that.

Go see these people. What.

Do you think that is? Do you think that's maybe just an inexperience maybe.

On the part of leadership or maybe the not wanting to? It's probably a combination of things. So the degree to which the church has brought, bought into the mantra that you need us, you need a specialist, you know, these aren't so much spiritual issues, they're more mental issues.

And I'm not even saying that it isn't true that there are such thing as mental issues. But sure, the large rug we're sweeping everything under is this is a, this is a mental thing. It's probably a brain chemistry thing, right?

Church, this is out of some of it. Some of it, I'm sure is feeling intimidated. I mean, working with people intently about their lives is time consuming. So you have the fair question, how much counseling can a pastor do?

Yeah, that's true. But this is where churches, there's a great opportunity to to put to work people in your church who are godly. And you have that couple that's been married 40 years. And can they not sit down with this younger couple who's struggling?

Certainly they can. Maybe do they need some help and can we give them some resources? So some of it, I think, is intimidation. And then I'm sure some of it's just laziness, too. Yeah. It's nasty business to spend a lot of time and at length talking to people about their troubles.

You know, and this.

Isn't, let's bash on the American pastor episode. But what really irritates me is that we kind of just, a lot of, and I say we, but I'm saying Western Christianity as a whole, probably evangelicalism as a whole, we kind of just ignore some of the qualifications for shepherds.

And then we wonder why we get ourselves into trouble. We have a local church here that'll stay nameless. But, you know, a large congregation, probably five, six hundred people. And he's been married for, the gentleman they just named their new pastor, married for a year and 26.

Okay, well that's fine. You got some youth there. But what is a 26 year old that's one year into marriage with no kids really going to tell someone with some life experience and really be, now I'm not saying he can't, I'm not saying the Lord does, the truth is the truth and he can point you to the word of God.

But I'm saying, I think there's a reason why, you know, Paul was saying, maybe be a little older, show that your children have served, you can, your head in your household, a man in your household. Like these things are kind of common sense things where he's saying with time and experience does come a measure of wisdom automatically, which I believe is a common grace of God.

Right. You know, when I was 15 years old, I thought my dad was the smartest guy in the world. And then I turned 40, I went, oh, no, he just said, don't do that because he had done that three times. You know, don't twist that.

Don't touch that. Through experience, you gain some knowledge and some wisdom and some life experiences. Right. So it's tough because I feel like that has a little bit to do about it too, because a lot of our pastors in some of these churches are better CFOs and CEOs than they are shepherds of taking care of the sheep.

It's a tough job. And I hold pastors in a very, very high regard. Right. I might talk a lot about some of the things we don't like that they're doing, but a pastor that understands Ezekiel 34 understands, you know, shepherding.

Oh, what a calling. I mean, I've seen families ruined because the pastor wasn't able to balance home life and shepherding. And it's just such a strenuous call on your life and a high calling. So I'm always wondering if that's a little bit why maybe they're sending, let's send them to Gary, because I don't have that experience and nor would I want to dip my foot in that.

Pond, you know, just to, you know, share with your listeners. I, there's a part of me that really recoils against the whole label of counselor. And the only reason I'm willing to embrace it at all is because I do think it's there in the scriptures.

Jesus is the wonderful counselor. And just as we know, he has under shepherds. I, I do think, you know, if I could stretch it, that there are under counselors, if I can say it that way, that, but when I'm working with people, I'm a pastor.

And really what I'm doing with people, when I talk with them is I'm pastoring them, even though I'm not a church. And I'm very aware that I want to know, are you in a church? If they're not in a biblical church, the first thing I'm saying to them is you need to be in a biblical church.

You're coming to me for counsel. Well, here's what I'm telling you, right? Get into a biblical church, because this is the primary way God's going to help you in this life. But, um, I'm, that's my approach really is more, I'm thinking of it as shepherd far more than I am counselor.

Understanding Depression as a Christian

Yeah. And, um, so it's, I think it's, I think it's very.

So you, you said something briefly at the top and I hope we're okay to touch on it a little bit. You talked about depression. Okay. And growing up, I always wondered what is it? Because I had very conflicting views there.

I mean, there's people out there right now in certain denominations that will tell you depression is brought on by Satan himself. It's a sin. If you accept it, a believer should never be depressed. Right.

And then I look at my own experience and go, I've probably been through bouts of some type of depression. I think there's different types. I look at the scriptures. I definitely see people that seemed like they had were going through seasons of.

Depression. I downcast stole my soul. You know? Yeah. David's a great one in me, right? You read.

The Puritans. Boy, they sure had a lot to say about those kinds of things. What, how do you.

Define that? And what do you think, what do you think that is? Yeah, well, that's the 45 minute question. We would need episode three because I think it's a very hard thing to define. Okay. Certainly it can be defined in terms of if we want to say it's symptoms or what is it?

What does it feel like? I'm saying as a believer, I'm a believer, you're a believer. A believer is.

In a season of dark depression. I've always wondered what is exactly going on there?

What is that? Well, this is where we got to be careful. I think in this way, what we say to someone when they're, we're going to say depressed, we have to be very careful about what we say. Okay. Because if I tell someone they're sinning and they're not, I have done them a great disservice and I've harmed them.

So I'll be brief with this, but my experience, and I don't mind talking about it because God ordained for me to face it and it is to serve his purposes. But I would often have breakfast with a man from our church at the time.

And he would share him with me as an adult, all struggled with depression and medication. And I remember saying to him, and I really don't think I was like castigating him, but I, his name was Chuck. And I said, Chuck, I got to be honest with you.

I really don't, I don't understand. Cause I just thought if you're a Christian, you have faith, you know, the Bible, you, and with about three months later, and I don't, some people will hear this and it probably sounds very mystical.

And I guess it was, I can tell you the day it was almost like a hand passed in front of my face. And immediately I could not sense the presence of God. We had just had our twins. My wife had just gone to, we were cleaning some offices at the time.

Something was wrong. I threw my two little babies in a wagon. I'm out walking, praying. And it started this descent where for this went on for the whole thing from beginning then was about four years, but over the next five months, utter darkness.

And not just mentally, it certainly was that I couldn't concentrate, you know, I couldn't do what we were doing right now. I couldn't look at someone in the eye very long. It was like, if your mind was like a circuit breaker, the breaker would trip, you know, I couldn't handle that.

Couldn't eat. I had about three weeks where in keeping with Psalm 107, they abhorred their food. Food was like wood to me. I lost about 30 pounds. Horrific dreams. And then for an extended period after that, just, you know, sometimes you struggle with it, just gray.

The only way I would know how to say it is gray in my, it was like a, over my whole thinking and my spirit. And so, I mean, were there really high highs during that time or low lows? It was just, there was no, there were no high, there were no high highs.

Okay. And you know, the, when I said to that man, I don't understand. You know, and some people, their theology may not allow for this, but that's okay. I, I know. Yeah. I am convinced that God said, well, you're going to know.

Wow. Knowing what he had in mind. And I've always done quite a bit of pastoring even, or counseling as a pastor. And, you know, even before I was a Christian in high school, people would come and talk to me about their, I'd get calls at night from these girls with boyfriends who were jerks.

And I'd literally spend hours on the phone. Of course, my advice was dump that jerk. Yeah. I'll take you out next Friday. No, I'm just kidding. That was, that's funny. I was like, I wouldn't treat you that way.

They never were interested in me though. I was just, so, I'm saying that to say that I can see God's hand even before I was saved. Okay. Then I'm, you know, I'm a pastor and I'm working with people and I've got this, I got this view.

If you have faith, you'll never be depressed. And certainly depression can be sinful. Okay. Yeah. I, and I see my sin. Wait, do you mean, do you mean there could be sinful acts in depression or the depression itself or is it, I tend to think depression is caused by it.

Depression is a, is a many faceted thing and I'm not willing to paint it with one brush stroke, you know, where it's all brain chemistry or it's all sin. And I almost, I don't even know that you and I have the capacity to, you know, we can't put it under a x-ray thing.

Yeah. There it is. But I, I certainly think, and I think sin is often revealed when we're in depression too. Yeah. The degree to which we're not trusting in God. And so, you know, in the midst of all that, I, I found some very wonderful friends.

The Psalms became my food. Charles Spurgeon, who many of your listeners, I think will know that Spurgeon knew what depression was. He was so helpful to me and the Puritans and, you know, they, they were talking about something called desertion, which they maintain was a season in which God removed his sensed presence from one of his children.

Not, didn't forsake them, but for reasons of discipline and greater purposes, didn't allow them, wouldn't allow them to know his felt presence as they've been accustomed to. Wow. You've got to go to the Puritans to get, right?

You are not, I was going to say your local Christian bookstore, but we don't have a local Christian bookstore. What are those? You can't go to Amazon and find a book about what the Puritans call. And the truth is modern Christians don't have any room.

No, God would never do this. Never leave me or forsake me. Well, not utterly forsake us, but the removal of the presence. Yeah. And I, I can remember sitting on my bed one evening with my wife and sobbing and saying, God has left me.

And I, my theology, I didn't believe God leaves us. And anyway, so I say all that to say that, you know, through that got to be about four years before. I would say God brought me out of that slowly. It wasn't some instantaneous, you know, I kept praying, I'm going to wake up one day and the light's going to break through.

And it didn't, it was more like a fog that burned off over time. I'd have to Wow. But that experience has defined me. There's not a day in which that period in my life doesn't affect me. My understanding of who God is and sovereignty.

Yeah. And I've learned, I have to be careful with sovereignty. Sovereignty is true, but we've got to watch it with people. I think sometimes we think we know. We throw around that word real loosely, don't we?

And without charity or understanding and, you know, and then I counseled a lot as a pastor. I never had the idea that sometime in the future, God would have me counseling, you know, primarily. Right. And I know that that experience was his will to, so that I wouldn't be counseling people theoretically and say, well, I've read a book about, I don't have any qualms saying to people if getting to know them, it seems that their depression is born of significant choices they're making and refuse a little belief.

I don't have any qualms saying, Hey, this is unbelief. You know, look at these areas where you're disobeying, you know, are you going to really be surprised that you're miserable? But I also know that we can't always understand and explain everything someone else is going through.

Right. We need to be careful in those moments about what.

We say. Yeah. So looking back on that experience, there's a lot of, some of these questions you're saying, was any of those questions coming up in your mind during that time? Was it a why me? Was it a why, what are you trying to show me God?

Or is it get me out of this? Like, what are your thoughts in that first year or two, if you don't mind me pressing that point, because I'm always interested, you know, we can look back on it. And I have things in my life where it marked me and changed me, you know, and it was 20, 18 years ago.

And I still believe and act a certain way because of the way the Lord, what he did to me, you know, then, but I can, I look back on it kind of with rose colored glasses too and go, well, look, look at the things I learned and the things that came up, but in that time, boy, did it feel the very first thing was get me out of it.

You know, then you start to go, okay, well, what can I learn from this? What are you trying to teach me? Was there any of that or.

Was it just, well, certainly there was the get me out of this. And then there was, am I ever going to be out of this? Yeah. And you know, it was strange because I didn't want to, I didn't want to commit suicide.

There was this grace. I feared God too much for that option. I am not ushering myself into God's presence. Yeah. But the thought of living like this, without it ending was unthinkable, you know, and here I'm a married, I got twins.

I'm a, I had every reason to be happy. So it didn't make sense. And here I'm, I'm always talking about sovereignty, sovereignty, sovereignty, but somehow my situation didn't fit into. So I thought, how could this be God's will?

Yeah. And, and I really do think that one of the things God wanted me to understand is that sovereignty often means that your life gets set on its ear. Sovereignty for Job. Yeah. And it's easy to, I can preach Job and teach Job and, and someone as great as Job can struggle the way he did in the middle.

Am I going to think I'm going to be honest and just, Oh, I've got my answer. And I'm, you know, I'm just going to, no, I, ranging from God, you know, where are you? Have you left me? Will this ever end?

Yeah. A lot easier to talk about God's sovereignty when it's someone else's life.

And situation, isn't it? And I don't think God wants people doing that. And we'll go to some links. Wow. Curious of that. Not only sovereignty, but you, you, I hear your story.