A Bit More on James 2, Molinism, More Augustine Actual

Alpha & Omega Ministries

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

Comments are disabled.

00:33

Greetings welcome to the dividing line James white along with you and of course in the control room

00:38

The if you notice that the the rich cams been getting a little more use recently and I have no control over that by the way and so I was recently informed that Rich was out and about and and someone recognized him and said he watches the dividing lines, so I predict that the

01:01

The number of appearances of the rich cam will increase exponentially as rich attempts to Maintain that ever -growing legion of adoring fans a shout -out to Andrew Let's shout out to Andrew is that that who it was that's who it was.

01:19

I got his name There you go see what I mean. He was he was really surprised to learn that I live up in his area

01:26

I wasn't really trying to Make the point, but now the point has one fan

01:33

Thank you very much told you not to get a word edgewise for for any anymore. It's pretty much done

01:38

So there you go That's but we you all wanted it when we mentioned the rich cam you were all like we want the rich cam

01:45

We want their choosing. Okay. So anyways, welcome to the program today, of course Unless you're living under a rock your

01:54

Twitter feed your Facebook feed is Just one story. Well, there's two stories today actually the major story that Is all over the place producing a huge number of memes

02:09

Is the passing of Robbie Zacharias? I was somewhat taken aback In light of the fact that the the announcement of stopping treatment was

02:19

I thought just a matter of days ago But RZ I am has has taken two difficult

02:29

Hits over the past a number of years obviously with Robbie's passing today and then the bill

02:35

Qureshi Had really wasn't with RZ. I am for a long period of time

02:41

But had become one of the primary speakers for at least a a number of months

02:47

Maybe a couple of years. I don't remember exactly how long it was but Obviously Our condolences go out to the family and to the the ministry as well because RZ I am is very large and in my experience has

03:07

Sought to establish a rather large network globally and That means there's you know, a lot of people are impacted by something like this

03:20

Far more than than us. We're weren't weren't we we may have a large outreach

03:26

Globally, but it's not because we have boots on the ground Globally, the only boots we have on the ground globally is me and right now they ain't happen either so But a lot of folks especially working in Context of universities and that type of outreach and so For those who knew him

03:49

I did not know rabbi Zacharias who never met never spoke never corresponded I was benefited about 15 years ago or so For a period of time in my

04:03

Islamic studies by RZ I am helped in my studying of Arabic and so very appreciative of that and so we are

04:13

Regularly reminded if we will but lessen of the passage of time and the the shortness of Life as we think about many who have gone over the past few years

04:24

What we would call big names Norman Geisler and Robbie Zacharias and RC Sproul and The reality is that's going to continue.

04:35

That's that's how life here in a in a fallen world is but in the midst of that It is interesting that At the same time you say goodbye to one we say hello to Gareth Quabena, I think

04:50

I don't know who's supposed to know if you're saying something like that we us Scottish people aren't expected to be able to figure things like this out, but Kofi Kofi is a dad now.

05:02

I'm sure it's going to have some very interesting results as far as Kofi's posts go in the future, but Sounded like there was a little bit of stress and anxiety

05:16

Toward the end and there was with my firstborn too. He was in neonatal intensive care for three days.

05:23

So yeah, there was Stuff like that going on. I know how that is that that'll freak you out for a while, but Believe it believe it not

05:32

Kofi, you know after after the first one, you know, you've seen all the memes the first kid

05:38

You know, you're sanitizing everything and you've read all the books about children and you know

05:44

You're just doing all this stuff and by a second or third one, you know, you know, it's just like They'll live

05:52

Yeah, they're rough tough little things. They'll they'll be fine. Don't worry about it and I know with with summer, you know 44 hours laboring with Clementine Because it was all the natural birth stuff and you know

06:06

All the all the girlfriends talking about what an incredible experience all rest of stuff and then

06:11

Jenny comes along and it's like just get this Kid out of me Just give me drugs and get this over with you know

06:20

Yep, yep, yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. I know how that works. So anyway, congratulations and I Given where you live.

06:29

I wasn't certain that they were going to allow births Maybe just put it off till it's just shut it down.

06:35

You know, we can't get there right now. Just hold on Not allowed. No stop That's I'm wondering about some governor's that they might not think that that would not be a bad idea

06:49

Let's just let's just hold off on that stuff for a while. Yeah, there you go so Congratulations on on that.

06:58

I was thinking this morning It's funny I do does everyone's mind work this way

07:07

Don't answer that question, I'm not sure that I want to answer that question actually, but My mind goes back over stuff that I've said, you know like 24 for like 24 48 hours and it seems to do it unconsciously and I Was thinking about James chapter 2 and I I wanted to make sure that I had communicated something with clarity.

07:38

I did not want to anyone to be confused about something Because I I think that the key issue in James chapter 2 is in verse 14 and And what you have there is what benefit what use is it my brethren if a certain one says

08:00

I have faith But does not have works then you have the last

08:10

Portion of the verse may do not I hey pistis so sigh out on Now you'll notice

08:18

I read that as a question And Punctuation is a

08:26

Editorial thing, but when you begin a phrase may

08:32

One of the Negation particles in the in the

08:39

Greek language when you begin that way, that's What it is a question that's being asked but somewhat of a rhetorical question

08:49

May Dunat I not able. Hey pistis the faith so sigh to save out on him.

08:56

So is the faith and I did mention that pistis has the article and that the majority of commentators that I have read recognize the importance of Seeing the fact that this is a particular kind of faith it is a said faith leg a and It is a may a kairga faith.

09:29

It is a faith that has no works So it is a faithless work it is a sorry it is a workless faith.

09:38

There you go and The question is asked is is

09:43

That faith is Such a faith is this

09:49

Able to save the one who claims to have it and We heard one of Individual it was

10:01

I don't have the video up any longer, but we heard the individual that was interviewing. Dr Wilson say that well

10:07

James never suggests that If you don't have works and have faith, well, yes, he does

10:13

He says he says that those very words right here when he says a workless faith cannot save but what

10:23

I may not have communicated as clearly as I or didn't emphasize maybe as clear as I should is

10:29

Some people if if you ask Those who deny

10:37

That repentance is a part of the gospel if you ask those who deny the lordship of Christ Is central to an understanding of the gospel?

10:47

So submission to his his his will That repentance means not just a turning away from sin, but it turning toward Obedience to Christ if you if you take faith as as mere intellectual assent

11:08

Then you struggle with this particular statement Because as I understood what was being said

11:18

They were saying that a dead faith does save That a workless faith does save But you should just try to energize the dead faith

11:29

By works as if a dead faith could ever produce works in the first place I don't you know, I don't know how that works to be honest with you but It would seem that the answer

11:40

From that very small group When I say very small,

11:46

I don't mean well see by numbers their own in church history This is an exceptionally small group

11:57

I Would honestly argue that if you remove repentance from the gospel you have lost the gospel

12:05

You you it is it is such a decrepit misunderstanding That it's it's incredibly

12:13

Damaging and dangerous But it does seem that the answer from their side to this question is yes

12:23

Any faith saves any and all faith save even a

12:31

Non -functional faith as they would put it a faith. It doesn't work. That's why I loved about that one meme that was posted yesterday on Twitter It was bones dr.

12:43

McCoy from the original Star Trek series He's not working Jim He's busted yeah instead of saying he's dead

12:53

Jim and so Evidently their answer to this question would be yes.

13:02

Yes that that faith can save him Now it would be easy for me to say it's just obvious Given the context that that's not what

13:12

James is saying, but it's actually Necessary given the context and that's what

13:18

I want to emphasize when you study the Greek language early on In any beginning grammar

13:28

You will be introduced and I just want to read it from somebody else So it's not just me saying it but you'll find this in a beginning grammar

13:37

So I happen to have mounts in my in my accordion set up here and Under section 31 dot 20, this is page 362 of the fourth edition

13:50

There are three ways to ask a question along with the deliberative subjunctive No indication is given as to the answer expected by the speakers.

13:59

That's the first way The speaker is just asking a question and there's the the text does not tell you

14:06

What answer they are expecting to receive? So if you just say suah basileus ton yudayon,

14:16

Matthew 27 11, are you the king of the Jews? There is nothing in that particular

14:24

Form that tells you what the expected answer is to be But then if the question begins with ooh

14:32

One of the two negation particles ooh and may Sometimes used together in the aorist of junk of a strong denial, but we're not talking about that right here

14:40

If the question begins with ooh, the speaker expects an affirmative answer

14:47

So didoskale ooh melai soi hati apalumitha Mark 438 teacher.

14:53

Do you not care that we are perishing and It would be really embarrassing or Actually insulting if it had been placed in the other form, which we'll look at in a moment

15:07

You don't care that we're perishing but the assumed The assumed answer is yes.

15:14

He cares that we're that we were perishing there was not an there was not an implicit accusation of carelessness and Then the third if the question begins with may the speaker expects a negative answer so now

15:31

Here's where you get some people who get a little bit on the Controversial side

15:39

Because this is an important element May Pontus glossis la lucen

15:46

First Corinthians 1230 not all speak in tongues. Do they? Not all our

15:53

Apostles. Are they? and Paul uses the construction that has may as a part of its form and Therefore the expected answer is no not all speak in tongues

16:08

Even though their entire denominations that are based on the idea that yes all speak in tongues Paul's Assumed response is no not all speak in tongues.

16:18

So if the question begins with may the speaker expects a negative answer, and so we go back to James 2 14 that last

16:30

Phrase is may do not I hey pistis. Oh sigh out on It starts with May and so the expected answer given the form that James uses is

16:43

That kind of faith cannot save him That's the kind of faith cannot save him

16:49

So a workless faith is not a saving faith That's what

16:55

James 2 14 says and that's what is then Explicated and then once you get to verse 18

17:01

Dykes on show me your faith by your works fits is where the connection is to Ephesians 2 8 through 10 for we are his workmanship creating

17:14

Christ Jesus unto good works Which God hath before day that we should walk in them. I Said yesterday that The reformed understanding of the gospel maintains

17:30

The proper and necessary balance in this matter and not just apologetically but overall in Its theology which is so important because the the the cliffs on both sides are our steep cliffs and Not only is it theologically vitally important to see what the relationship is here

17:57

But the human I don't the human tendency And I don't

18:04

I don't fully understand it, but the human tendency is to Fall off the balance point

18:15

When it comes not only to the the glory of God in salvation where we want to appropriate in some fashion control

18:28

Over Salvation. I mean that's that's the very essence of the sacramental system of Old Rome is a mechanism whereby mankind's will and Mankind's will as expressed in the leadership of the church

18:49

Becomes absolutely determinative And so even though you talk about grace and even though you talk about the necessity of grace

18:57

You can't talk about the sufficiency of grace because that has been replaced with the sufficiency of the human will

19:06

Mankind wants to insert himself and Yet on the other side then is

19:17

If it's all of God all of grace then There is

19:24

Nothing that mankind can do yes to bring yourself into maintain and finish

19:32

The work of salvation. It's it's all of God. No question about it But where does

19:37

God's purpose get to fit in here? Can God have a purpose? I mean if Why couldn't

19:45

God just simply save us and then take us out of the earth? He could use ministering angels to come down say this is the gospel.

19:51

That would be a pretty effective mechanism, wouldn't it? But he's chosen not to do that he leaves us he he is

19:58

Reproducing his son in us Christ in us the hope of glory

20:06

We are the body and As is expressed so clearly in Ephesians 2 10 we are his workmanship, we are the result of his divine expression of power and So there's no place even in the discussion of good works given to any type of alien merit there is no place for saying that in at the end

20:40

We're gonna see that it was all of God that got us into it. But then Because God has worked in us there is going to be some additional

20:49

Standing or level of merit that we're gonna have by having obeyed Christ or anything like that.

20:56

No But it's plain that it's God's purpose that we be sanctified

21:04

It's plain that it's God's purpose that we be made like Christ and There should be no one who hears

21:20

Commandments like or statements and scriptures such as No one will see

21:26

God apart from holiness and Run from them and try to explain them away

21:36

The balance is we are his workmanship Created in Christ Jesus in union with him unto good works

21:48

Which God has before ordained now if you don't believe God conform for it anything if you're you know if you don't have a

21:57

If you don't have a divine decree that is being worked out the glory of God I I don't know how you make head to tails of any of this stuff to be honest with you but God has

22:10

Decreed he has before ordained. That's what it's what the decree is That we are to walk in good works so this is an expression of his sovereignty and it has reality in time and so That's in perfect harmony with James 2 14.

22:32

That's in perfect harmony with James 2 18 and 220 and 224 if you will allow the context to speak for themselves

22:40

So I think it's very very important and it helps us to maintain a balance That a lot of people do lose hold of and when you've if you've been in pastoral ministry you you encounter folks who just Really struggle with the issue of assurance.

22:59

They really struggle with Knowing whether they have You know real peace with God and So you've had to deal with these things and you can't

23:14

There are some people that have decided that to avoid any of that type of a trouble

23:21

I'm just gonna I'm just gonna pass right over all of the texts That say examine yourself

23:29

To see whether you're in the faith That exhort us to provide warnings

23:38

So people just don't even I mean you've seen people just dismiss the warnings in Hebrews for on various sundry grounds try to try to get around them, but God uses those warnings to prick our conscience to provide guidance and light and so the

23:59

Balance of Scripture is a beautiful thing to observe to see and to see the consistency of James 2 with Ephesians 2 and Philippians 3 and Romans 4 through well all of Romans and and everything else.

24:16

So if like I said if you expose yourself to the

24:24

Commentaries of the world You will find lots and lots of people who will want to try to Assert that there is a fundamental contradiction between James and Paul it is and Luther struggled with it.

24:38

There's no question that Luther struggled with it and for all his great insights, this is one he missed and Augustine missed stuff and Luther missed stuff and Calvin missed stuff and we all missed stuff and that's one of the real

24:56

Advantages of reading church history is God always uses very very imperfect vessels and There you go

25:07

Okay Someone in a Facebook group that I am a part of which

25:12

I will not mention because If I if I ever join a Facebook group then there are certain people that descend upon those

25:21

Facebook groups and Make my life miserable Made a provide a link to a question from Reasonable faith and Our our good friend, dr.

25:39

Craig William Lane Craig Question number 326 is I I don't remember this one.

25:46

That doesn't mean anything The sad thing is I may have already responded to this one sometime in the distant past But I don't remember doing it so we're gonna do it again because if I don't remember it then you probably don't either and we're all

26:02

Just perfectly fine here now but July of 2013

26:09

A Person writes in and says I had a question regarding God's foreknowledge, which is a topic that consistently eats away at my heart.

26:19

I Was looking at article dr. Craig wrote on middle knowledge and I was wondering how does middle knowledge take us away from the idea of determinism

26:27

If God picks which world is created and in that world someone I know is not saved and cannot be saved is

26:37

Suggesting that in no such world would that person ever be saved? Now if you are a relatively new listener to the program you may not

26:51

Be familiar with the tenets of middle knowledge and what's called Molinism We obviously have talked about it a lot in the past and gone over it in various venues and there's a

27:08

Two evening two -part YouTube series from back somewhere before 2008 2009 somewhere in there,

27:18

I think I Did a response to William Lane Craig's views on Molinism at a

27:26

Reformed Baptist Church right next to Biola That's the closest we're gonna get to a debate anyway

27:34

So we've Just just to remind everyone or to bring up speed

27:40

Dr. Craig is a proponent of Molinism probably the most popular proponent of Molinism and The idea of Molinism is the concept of middle knowledge that between the two moments

27:59

Aspects of God's knowledge, which is God's perfect knowledge of himself and then

28:04

God's perfect knowledge of what he himself Has done will do can do

28:13

So it's natural and free knowledge in between these Concepts is something called middle knowledge and Middle knowledge is of what any free creature would do

28:27

Given any circumstances that free creature would be put into so it's the idea that God knows

28:36

Sort of this Archetypal John Smith and Somehow God knows without Having chosen to create

28:50

John Smith. This is this is to me where the whole system completely Falls apart where it's just utterly untenable is

28:59

That this knowledge is not found is not grounded in God's creative decree

29:06

Um, it is not found. It's not grounded in any Action of God.

29:13

It's not it does not flow from his will He does not say I am going to make

29:18

John Smith in such -and -such a way I'm going to make him this tall with these characteristics with this amount of mental power

29:26

And he's gonna be this kind of person because he speaks this language and he's more at this time in history No, none of that stuff is

29:33

A part of middle knowledge because if you if you put that in then it's no longer relevant The whole reason this system was created was to find a way to get around the sovereignty of God to get around the idea of a divine decree and so from some other source

29:52

You get this middle knowledge now

29:57

God may possess it fully internally to himself, but the specifics of it

30:04

Who John Smith would be and what John Smith would do? does not flow from the action of God in defining and decreeing who

30:18

John Smith would be or anyone else. So that said that's Where this system is a philosophical system and it is not a biblical system by any stretch of the imagination

30:29

The idea is that Having this middle knowledge

30:37

God can then envision possible worlds and He's the the greatest

30:47

Supercomputer ever made he he makes quantum computing, you know, that's the new thing now.

30:53

I don't understand it I've read a little about and this went beyond me but quantum computing

31:03

These new super duper computers That people are hoping to Basically make artificially intelligent and Then you obviously end up having

31:19

Terminators coming back to get us. So that's All the movies are just they're all coming true

31:24

I am legend and Terminator all the same time and it'll happen in 2020, too

31:32

Yeah Yeah, yeah, we remember 2020 mmm didn't didn't really think the beginning of the year is gonna be as bad but anyway, so God's a supercomputer and he can

31:46

Take from this middle knowledge Literally billions and billions of people goes billions of people on the planet right now they're always

31:52

I haven't always been but that's still billions of people and He can

32:01

Plug them in at different places. Now. I'm not sure how you do this because Obviously whoever

32:07

John Smith is John Smith's mommy and daddy were important to what

32:12

John Smith is So it it's not like every

32:18

John Smith and Mary Brown is A Member though none of you remember this but those of you are old like me remember light bright when you were a kid

32:30

I never got one of those. So I really that's it's one thing. I've sort of felt sort of sad about in my life

32:36

But I was able to buy a Clementine one years ago. So that was sort of fulfilling just a childhood sadness of mine anyway, but What Okay explains a lot, oh, thanks

32:52

So well, it's bright lights. I could make a Coogee out of out of out of a light, right? I really could That would be that'd be awesome.

32:58

Anyway yeah, you've got these different colored pegs and it's not like people are just a

33:04

Different colored peg you can just I'm gonna plug it in over here. I'll plug it into a different center over here It's all always gonna do the same thing so somehow this middle knowledge is expansive enough to know that John Smith would

33:19

Respond to given circumstances as a Puritan and as a hippie in the 1960s okay, and so God's so big that he can put together these possible worlds and these worlds can have different mountains and rivers and lakes and streams and different natural things going on and different histories and And and all the rest of this stuff and then he can just draw from I guess there's there'd have to be a finite number of These light bright widgets to play with there have to be a finite number of possible individuals

33:56

But maybe there's an infinite number. That doesn't make any sense. But Anyways, he can pull these individuals out and pop him in and see how a world would turn out now.

34:06

He is micromanaging all of the circumstances So you put

34:12

John Smith in a particular world and then you micromanage everything that happens in John Smith's life

34:19

Everything To the clothes he wears, to the economic situation he finds himself in, to the weather everything and You get him to do what you need him to do to accomplish your purposes

34:31

Because you know what he's gonna do in any given situation. So you put him in the situations to get the result you want

34:40

But the whole point of the idea is

34:46

He's still doing it freely. There's no decree. I mean, there's sort of a decree

34:55

But it's a decree that is based on and Determined by the content of mental knowledge, which does not come forth from God It exists some other way where it comes from they never have an answer.

35:12

So They think that they are in essence saving autonomy and free will and You can say well if someone doesn't accept

35:22

Christ and they're lost, it's their own free will, there's their own choice They were given the opportunities and they they didn't take them

35:29

Well, this raises all sorts of questions. I mean it raises questions about well, how many people can you put into a world?

35:36

what if you put fewer people in the world and Mullinism as Since Mullinism is not constrained by being divine revelation.

35:45

It's just a philosophical system. It doesn't come from the Bible It's being forced onto the Bible. It's it's a means of getting rid of problems that actually reading the

35:53

Bible brings about So what we're gonna see in this in this this thing here is that Mullinism can just skip over certain questions because it's not a divine revelation anyways and And so the questions that come up is well

36:16

Is God able to save everyone? Well, you could

36:22

I suppose You know theorize That no he can't and in fact

36:33

William Lane Craig has theorized that the world we are in is the best possible world with the maximum Number of people being saved but Mullinism has to go well

36:45

What about the existence of sin because there's a whole lot of sin and so is the

36:50

Mullinist idea that God is getting the maximum number of people saved with the minimum amount of sin

36:57

Could God have saved could God have had much less evil but then as a result had much fewer people saved and so God runs all these calculations and Like I said the big quantum computer

37:13

And he comes up with the best world and that's where we are. That's that.

37:19

This is the best world and You're free But not really because middle knowledge

37:28

See see remember the illustration I used a couple weeks ago when I said does God know what

37:35

I'm going to have for dinner and Christmas Eve in 2021 and If God does know am

37:42

I free to have something else for dinner on Christmas Eve in 2021 Because if God's foreknowledge is perfect Then it could not be falsified because if I have something other than what

37:56

God has eternally known I was gonna have then he was operating on false knowledge and his knowledge has been forced falsified and that Has all sorts of implications for things regarding prophecy and stuff like that Well in the

38:11

Molinist perspective God knows what you're gonna have Even though you freely chose to have it

38:20

For dinner on Christmas Eve in 2021 and you can't have anything else, but you have it freely except That what determined that you were gonna have it freely was this middle knowledge thing that God didn't create

38:34

We're not sure who did How is that actually a better system than having a

38:40

God who works both in eternity and time and Has assured us that events in time are meaningful

38:46

It doesn't That's that's why I find Molinism to be just an empty philosophical waste of time but it's popular among certain people and So that's what this guy's asking about and he's asking if God picks which world is created and in that world someone

39:07

I know is not saved and Cannot be saved. Is this suggesting that in no such world would that person ever be saved?

39:16

That's a valid question so When God does the quantum computer is running the numbers?

39:24

Is there did he get down to ten final worlds ten finalists? And Your friend the person being referred to here was saved in four out of the ten

39:41

But none of those four ended up giving the maximum total number and So they will not be saved

39:49

How is that not a choice on God's part? That's why I just look at Molinism.

39:55

It does not Answer anything it raises more questions and it's just and it makes every single prophet and Apostle go, huh?

40:04

What what are you talking about? Where did you come up with that? So you end up with more questions bad answers and the most important thing is in a biblical

40:16

Good reason not to believe it. So anyway Interesting question because it's saying

40:23

Is that is this suggesting that in no such world with that person ever be saved now I have heard

40:28

Craig say that there are certain people who would not be saved in any possible world That there are people

40:36

God cannot save now Does God get to actuate worlds where there are fewer of those people?

40:44

He actually ends up creating because again Does he just have this massive pile of light bright things?

40:49

He can just plug in to create these worlds on Hmm Do we then just assume that God has created a world in which everyone who can be saved in any world?

41:01

Will be saved and any who can't be saved won't be and if that's the case what good is human prayer in this situation?

41:10

Doesn't it kind of just make it so that anyone who prays for what God has already done is Going to have his her prayer answered and that the others won't

41:17

I? Would have thought the answer would be that God would have factored human prayer into his decision -making and Plan for the world not that we change

41:26

God's mind per se But it seems like if God's creation decree already established salvation damnation.

41:33

Does it matter? When I try and ponder God's foreknowledge of my life,

41:38

I have horrible doubts I feel incredibly depressed and guilty because my mind cannot reconcile at all now I don't know why would you would feel depressed and guilty?

41:47

By not being able to reconcile God's timelessness, that's that concerns me. I'll be perfectly honest with you

41:53

I feel like Calvinism suggests that God predetermines everything and we are all following a script which makes everything seem meaningless to me and to Dr.

42:01

Craig as he says in his answer, but middle knowledge seems to suggest that God predetermines us by choosing which world we exist in So it seems like it's not too different from Calvinism.

42:10

It's just a step higher. I would love clarification here I don't think it's a step higher and then

42:16

Arminianism It's supposed to be Arminianism Suggests that God draws all to him but not all are saved yet God does things in the world that bring people salvation yet to salvation yet does not do them to some other people which suggests either

42:28

Arbitrary behavior or some form of higher knowledge. I generally hate it because I have always been a relatively strong Christian But I've opened this

42:35

Pandora's box that I cannot figure out how to shut I know this question was a bit rambly and I know that someone other than dr

42:43

Craig is probably going to answer which is cool. But I guess my final question is how do you live life with joy?

42:49

How do you not fear that someday that maybe someday something might happen that brings doubt into your heart and then you start to wonder

42:55

Like what if I'm one of those people who could never be saved and just thought I was I know it sounds ridiculous

43:01

But I worry myself about this kind of thing and genuinely seeking the advice of fellow Christians on this matter I never thought about this kind of stuff until I got into the whole for knowledge debate

43:09

Unfortunately, this kind of discussion goes way beyond the current level of understanding of the members of my church

43:14

And I can't really have this kind of discourse. Thanks very much for all input Mike in the

43:20

United States. Well, I Would hope that Mike in the

43:26

United States six years ago seven years ago Would find a church with elders who have thought through these things and would be able to provide a thoroughly biblical and balanced response

43:41

This is a question that Obviously Reformed elders deal with fairly regularly.

43:49

I mean this this comes up in Fellowship meetings and and Bible studies and and everything else on a fairly regular basis and There is really that When people say, you know all that stuff

44:07

I just don't know that it's all that meaningful Here's a situation where you have a real pastoral application

44:14

Because there are people who really do struggle with these things and the answer is not to say well just don't worry about it the answer that an

44:24

Arminian The answer that a Molinist and the answer that a Reformed theologian are going to give are going to be different They are going to be functionally different from one another and obviously we would say that one of them's could be considerably more consistent and biblical than the others

44:45

But you can't just simply go, you know, we just shouldn't talk about things like that. Remember about two weeks ago now

44:51

I read from the Institutes and read from one of the sections where Calvin was saying We are literally questioning the wisdom of the

44:59

Holy Spirit of God When we say and he said I respect these people I understand their concerns

45:05

He said we're questioning God's wisdom when we are unwilling to talk about that which the Holy Spirit himself has given to us in Scripture if the triune

45:15

God has chosen to reveal to us in Scripture his eternal nature and his eternal decree then these are things that we are

45:26

To have to struggle with and they may be it may be a struggle it may be difficult for us

45:33

But these are things we we have to do now Craig's response runs along these lines

45:42

To begin with it is inaccurate to say that a Molinism God picks which world is created and in that world

45:49

Someone I know is not saved and cannot be saved that person who is unsaved can be saved

45:55

And is being lost as a result of his free rejection of God's saving grace and is contrary to God's will for his life on Molinism his destiny lies in his own hands not

46:09

God's not that's my comment there It's not clear what you mean when you say in no such world would that person ever be saved obviously in No world in which the person is not saved is he saved but there are possible worlds in Which that person is saved

46:30

Perhaps you're asking whether there are feasible worlds in which that person is saved Molinism is neutral on that question.

46:39

So he starts off with a great Autonomous will of man is in charge of everything

46:48

But then when he really gets down to what's actually being said he says yeah, we don't know

46:54

Molinism is neutral on that question. What's that question? Perhaps you're asking whether there are feasible worlds in which that person is saved

47:02

So could there could God have? Actuated a feasible world in which that person could have been saved

47:10

And it says Molinism is neutral on that question. The Molinist could hold that that person is unsaved in Every feasible world in which he exists

47:20

But that is not inherent to Molinism. Oh, okay

47:29

The more you push on this system I Watched recently,

47:36

I watched because I've always enjoyed both of them the 1960 version of the time machine remember that one and then early 2000s.

47:46

They did a remake. It was really good Changed the plot just a little bit but it was it was really well done

47:52

And of course things have advanced a little bit in CGI and things like that since 1960

48:00

Yeah, I mean the Morlocks were a whole lot uglier scarier in the modern version but they were pretty ugly and scary in the in the original version to almost on a

48:12

Cooler level because they didn't have all the CGI that was actually actors going all glowing eyes and stuff like that.

48:19

Anyway And that I like time stuff You know, my favorite

48:24

Star Trek stuff is time things like that and and things like that. Anyway So you you've got we have this idea

48:39

And in in that one one of the big in the in the second one what they introduced was the idea of paradox

48:45

It's the the time travel is trying to save this woman's life his fiancee he's he's once he's just given her the ring and she's robbed they're robbed and she's shot and killed and So he builds a time machine to go back and to save her

49:00

Well when he goes back and they run from where she had been killed she gets run over by a horse No matter what he does

49:06

She dies Can't save it. Can't stop it. This was the big question that he's struggling with all along.

49:14

Sorry if I just ruined it for you I didn't didn't mean to do that. But the movies like 2003 or something.

49:20

I forget when it was but just So it raises issues of what what what is the purpose of God in creation and And so When it says here the

49:35

Molinist could hold that that person is unsaved in every feasible world in which he exists But that is not inherent to Molinism.

49:43

It's so purely theoretical Maybe but we don't know

49:50

But we'll criticize the Calvinists for having an answer because they keep going to those same old texts

49:57

Like Acts 4 or Isaiah 10 or whatever else His answer goes on You ask do we then just assume that God has created a world in which everyone who can be saved in any world?

50:11

Will be saved and any who can't be saved won't be Obviously not.

50:16

Otherwise, there would be an infinite number of people in the world Really your question seems so confused.

50:22

It's hard for me to make sense of it Maybe you're asking whether anyone who is unsaved in the actual world is unsaved in every feasible world

50:31

And the answer is that Molinism is neutral in that regard Answer is we don't have an answer

50:40

Maybe you're asking whether someone who is saved in the actual world is unsaved in some other feasible world again

50:50

Molinism doesn't pronounce on this but why not as for the efficacy of prayer

50:58

I agree with you that God would have factored human prayer into his decision -making and plan for the world Not that we change

51:04

God's mind per se God's choice of a world May take into account the prayers people would offer in those worlds

51:14

So that prayer really does make a difference to think that Just stop for a second everybody

51:25

Arminian Everybody in Classical theism

51:33

Has to deal with the issue of prayer. We've talked about numerous times on the program

51:41

We've talked about how prayer is meant to change us not change God We have talked about the

51:47

Insuperable difficulties that arise if you limit God's knowledge of the future. So open theism is a heresy

51:56

It is not representative of the God of Scripture in any way shape or form open theist Do not believe that God has perfect knowledge of what free creatures will do in the future.

52:06

So When God created he had no idea that 9 -11 would happen. He knew he did not have any idea

52:12

We developed atomic weapons and dropped them on cities or anything like that at all And he and he's stunned that we've done these things but classical theism has always rejected that Kind of a

52:26

God is learning and growing and getting better as he goes along type of idea and so Outside of that the

52:33

Molinist has to deal with prayer. The Reformed person has to do with prayer. The Arminian has to do with prayer The Arminian is stuck with the idea that that prayer is changing

52:42

God that you're basically Trying to convince God to be better than he actually is to do more than he's actually doing

52:49

The Reformed person says that prayer is how God changes me That he is already perfect and always has been perfect and that prayer is is a

53:01

Supernatural activity where I am conformed to his will The Molinist here is saying something really strange

53:12

God's choice of a world may take into account the prayers people would offer in those worlds

53:19

So that prayer really does make a difference so instead of the intimate communion of The redeemed soul with God whereby through the ministration of Holy Spirit.

53:28

We are changed into the image of Christ and His will is made known to us and our will is made conformable to his will

53:38

The last thing a true believer wants to be is autonomous That's the last thing of true believer wants to be we want our will to be in full harmony with God's Not the other way around but in Molinism God may take into consideration the prayers that may be said based upon middle knowledge in determining whether to bring a world into existence now

54:04

I Never heard anybody. I'll be honest with you. I've never heard anybody in any situation pray

54:14

God Bring the world where I'm saved into existence I'm praying this

54:24

Molinistically in case in case you're looking down through the corridors of time as you are as You're playing with your light bright set and seeing which world to to actuate

54:39

I want to pray that you make this world where I exist and I'm a believer come into existence so I can be saying

54:45

I I've heard some interesting prayers. That's not one of them.

54:51

I have ever heard. I will I will confess You hear that in a

54:57

Monty rich. Here is that in a Monty Python voice? That's that tells a little bit like the hand grenade of Antioch.

55:06

Yes Thanks a lot rich appreciate that I'm glad you didn't turn the camera on for that because that would have that would have been used against you in a court of law

55:16

So We continue on but then oddly You turn around and ask if it doesn't matter because God's create creation decree already established salvation damnation

55:26

But Mike you already said that God's creation decree factored in those prayers. So obviously it does matter

55:33

So the creation decree for William Lane Craig is Secondary secondary to human action.

55:41

No question about it. I mean that's it's stated right there It's David there But Anyways It goes on from there it like I said if you want to see the rest of it

55:53

It's question number 326. You can go to reasonable faith to take a look at it but it's always good to remind ourselves of Why Molin ism is a really really really bad choice

56:08

Doesn't I I can't tell you how many people I have encountered Who have said oh, yeah,

56:14

I I think the best way around I think Molin ism and then then you start pressing just just a little bit and well, you know,

56:23

I haven't read much about it, but I You know, it seems to just sort of answer all the questions and and it's like no it doesn't really answer any questions actually

56:36

It leaves the big questions out there. All right Got a few minutes to get back to What we have committed to doing

56:46

Looking we got some some more Augustin to read if you like church history. This is where you tune in oh,

56:51

I just realized I Saw a request. I'm sorry Someone requested something in slack and I I haven't

56:58

I was gonna do it when I got in and I forgot apologies. I'll get to it Remind me after the program to check slack and someone needs a reference from me and I'll Yeah, you got it there.

57:10

Yeah Yeah, I'll try to do that after program I apologize didn't mean to put anybody off just Slip my mind that happens a lot these days

57:21

Yep, I'll get to it So we have been

57:28

Doing what we have been challenged to do and we're seeking to do a thorough job and I've been looking at particular section.

57:40

I'm gonna be looking at a few sections over time In the dissertation by Kenneth Wilson We took a little bit of a break yesterday by looking at what

57:49

Kenneth Wilson said about James 2 Because that allowed us to go in a completely different area of discussion the whole

57:57

Lordship salvation issue Whole biblical gospel issue really when you think about it but back to the dissertation and this will allow us again to be doing more reading in Augustin and Those of you who are church history fans, even if you're not these are important theological issues

58:13

I hope you'll stick with me. I think I've had a number of people mentioned that You know,

58:18

I I'm not necessarily overly excited about the Ken Wilson dissertation itself, but man the stuff you're talking about Does have wide application

58:29

Manichaeism Gnosticism Church history and the various things that Augustin was dealing with so it is important.

58:36

So from from dissertation page 184 quote

58:44

Speaking of Augustin he correctly cites 30 scriptures demonstrating free choice

58:50

But then he repeats Fortunatis's Manichaean divine unilateral predetermination of individuals eternal destinies interpretation of John 665 now

59:05

We've already started looking at this because this is something I've been chasing through the citations to Establish the thesis that is being promoted by Ken Wilson and the provisionists

59:20

That those of us who are reformed are nothing but deceived Manichaeans who believe we believe because Augustin Told us to believe it and we've just simply that's all we read

59:34

We don't read the Bible we don't study Greek we don't study church history We don't know anything about any of these things and no one ever knew anything about this

59:40

Augustin about Augustin until Ken Wilson revealed these things to us That's where Calvin got everything and and we saw yesterday just yesterday

59:50

Why do we have problems James you it's Augustin Augustin is the biggest problem in all of church history from Ken Wilson's perspective

01:00:00

I really don't think Augustin has diddly to do with the issue in James chapter 2, but there you go

01:00:08

So here what I've been What you'd have to do to establish this thesis is to have an extensively in -depth section

01:00:19

Establishing the parameters and norms with examples From Manichaean writings from Gnostic writings from Stoic writings from Neoplatonic writings

01:00:32

And from Qumran since those are the five things that he likes to refer to when he talks about duped this divine unilateral predetermination of individuals eternal destinies

01:00:46

When when he says that Interpretation of John 665 then there needs to be an understanding of What that hermeneutical system is

01:00:59

What is this hermeneutical system that can provide you with a duped interpretation of John 665

01:01:07

What what does that look like? so if you open your

01:01:12

Bible and You turn to John 665 and he does say compare

01:01:19

John 664 did it again select all thank you

01:01:27

John 665 He also says look at 666 44 and he was saying this is

01:01:34

Jesus Conclusion at the end of the discourse in the synagogue in Capernaum For this reason

01:01:42

I have said to you that no one can come to me unless it has been granted him from the father

01:01:50

Udice dunat I alfine prosim a no one is able to come to me

01:01:58

Aeon unless young may a Dead of men on Alto act to Patras it has been granted to him

01:02:07

By the father and so John 644 no one comes me unless the father draws him Now do these words have a meaning prior to the birth of month of many

01:02:20

Before Manichaeism was developed did did they have a meaning before the first Gnostic ever encountered the gospel of John?

01:02:29

How do we determine that meaning? Well, we determine that meaning by the historical grammatical method of interpretation.

01:02:38

We look at the author We look at the author's words. We look at the meaning of the words.

01:02:43

We look at the grammar the syntax the lexicography and We look at to whom he's writing and we do our best to place that data in the context of John chapter 6 in the context of the book of John in The context of who

01:03:03

John was and what John wrote and in the context the entirety of the New Testament so the question that would have to Have pages and pages of meaningful argumentation and as you can tell there are no pages of meaningful argumentation on this pages and pages of meaningful argumentation is the establishment of This hermeneutical form what is a

01:03:33

Manichaean? Interpretation of John 665 what what methodology did they use?

01:03:42

What did they do with grammar what did they do with the meanings of words? What was their ultimate interpretive lens?

01:03:51

There should be chapters on this if the thesis has any merit at all

01:03:59

Without it there is no reason To give any credence whatsoever to the thesis

01:04:11

Okay, so that's why I've been looking at these particular things because here's a great example

01:04:18

Here's a great example. He correctly cites 30 scriptures demonstrating free choice. And again, I just I need to point something out

01:04:24

This is a the language in the dissertation is exceptionally biased it clearly shows

01:04:33

Wilson's theology determining what he's going to see in Augustine So when

01:04:39

Augustine says something he doesn't like this is a game that he's playing he's changing meanings he's doing all this this type of stuff

01:04:46

Here, he correctly cites 30 scriptures demonstrating free choice because that's of course true because that's what we believe

01:04:53

But then he repeats Fortunatus's Manichaean duped Interpretation of John 665.

01:05:00

So as soon as I saw it, I'm like, ah, okay. Well Haven't found the part yet where we have all that in -depth discussion

01:05:08

But maybe this will maybe if I go to Augustine because this is you know,

01:05:13

I'm giving a reference here We'll be able to figure this out. We'll be able to see how Manichaeism how does how does a fully

01:05:23

Dualistic system That has an eternal realm of light and eternal realm of darkness

01:05:30

That they're equal with one another that one does not give rise to the other pure full -on

01:05:37

Dualism even more so than Gnostics were because at least in Gnosticism the the the divine origin of all things

01:05:47

You know that the the fallen order the material order comes from emanations down and Is not equal to or eternal so it's not as dualistic as Manichaeism.

01:06:01

Manichaeism is fully dualistic All right. How does dualism? Deal with John 665 what

01:06:12

What is it about being a Manichae? That will give an interpretation of John 665 that you and I would not see or as Reformed people will this turn the light on so we can see.

01:06:29

Oh, I Just thought I was reading the text. I I just thought I was following the grammar, but actually

01:06:36

I'm this is flowing from an emanation from the king of the kingdom of light and The light spark that is trapped within me testifies this

01:06:48

I'm sorry, it's just Okay, here's the Augustine actual here's what Augustine actually said

01:06:56

When God says Turn ye unto me and I will turn unto you One of these clauses that which invites our return to God evidently belongs to our will

01:07:07

While the other which promises his return to us belongs to his grace Here possibly the

01:07:14

Pelagians think they have a justification for their opinion Which they so prominently advance that God's grace is given according to our merits in the east

01:07:24

Indeed that is to say in the province of Palestine in the city of Jerusalem Pelagius when examined in person by the bishop did not venture to affirm this

01:07:34

For it happened that among the objections which were brought up against him this in particular was objected

01:07:41

That he maintained that the grace of God was given according to our merits an opinion

01:07:47

Which was so diverse from Catholic doctrine and so hostile to the grace of Christ Then unless he had anathematized it as laid to his charge.

01:07:55

He himself must have been anathematized on its account He pronounced indeed the required anathema upon the dogma, but how insincerely his later books plainly show

01:08:07

For in them he maintains absolutely no other opinion than that the grace of God is given according to our merits

01:08:14

Such passages do they collect out of the scriptures like the one which I just now quoted turn ye unto me and I will turn unto you as If it were owing to the merit of our turning to God That his grace were given to us

01:08:30

Wherein he himself even turns unto us Now the persons who hold this opinion fail to observe that unless our turning to God were itself

01:08:40

God's gift it would not be said to him in prayer turn us again

01:08:46

Oh God of hosts and Thou Oh God will turn and quicken us and again turn us

01:08:52

Oh God of our salvation With other passages of similar import too numerous to mention here for with respect to our coming unto

01:09:03

Christ What else does it mean then are being turned to him by believing and yet he says?

01:09:11

No, man can come unto me except it were given unto him of my father Did did did you miss the

01:09:23

Manichean stuff? Did did you miss the citation of Fortunato's you see?

01:09:31

That was a understandable meaningful discussion of the priority of grace in conversion

01:09:43

There was nothing about Manichaeism There was nothing about Gnosticism. There was nothing about Stoicism.

01:09:49

There is nothing from the command community. There's nothing about neoplatonism This was a meaningful discussion

01:09:57

Concerning What Pelagius is saying about the relationship of grace and merit the citation of John 665 is at the end of the paragraph

01:10:08

No interpretation is given in the sense of and as Fortunato said

01:10:16

No, and so how do we understand this sentence?

01:10:22

He correctly cites 30 scriptures demonstrating free choice, but then he repeats Fortunato's Manichaean duped interpretation of John 665 the only way this can make any sense is that He believes that Fortunato's Interpreted John 665 in such a way that it speaks of a sovereign action of God and Therefore that makes it

01:10:55

Manichaean So not so and no one else before that would ever believe that so that therefore it must have come from Manichaeism So we forget about Clement and we forget about the epistle of Diognetus and then even amongst

01:11:10

The many people that I would agree were strongly synergist. There are still strong statements of utter

01:11:18

Divine sovereignty in many of the early church fathers were they consistent about that? No, they were not but it's still there and so the only way this can make any sense is that basically what he's saying is well a heretic once interpreted this verse

01:11:34

You cited it and therefore you must agree with the heretic. You must have gotten your understanding from the heretic

01:11:42

But there is no effort even expended To try to make the connection.

01:11:48

Oh But it's enough that well, he was a Manichaean here for nine years And so therefore it just must be that no one's ever changed their views

01:11:57

No one's no one's ever actually converted to the Christian faith You you don't read scripture yet.

01:12:06

The scripture has never changed anyone's actual interpretation I don't know about you, but at least we get to read some great stuff from a guest

01:12:18

While going oh Well what we needed to find there wasn't there that's because it's not there

01:12:25

That's because it's not there Wilson same page more Augusta coming same page

01:12:34

Ignoring both the Greek and Latin He again proof text

01:12:40

Ephesians 2 8 for faith is God's gift This heralds an alarming repetition of an a priori theology driving an impossible exegesis of a crucial text

01:12:50

Now we already looked at Wilson Saying that what

01:12:56

Ephesians 2 is talking about and that now recels refers to the entirety of the preceding clause which includes faith

01:13:06

He's right. That's a proceeding, but we've also pointed out from other sources numerous quotations from people before Augustine Who believed that faith was specifically?

01:13:19

the antecedent not Just one of three but the antecedent

01:13:25

Augustine didn't invent that and those other people weren't Manichaeans before they were

01:13:31

Christians, so but But did you catch the prejudicial language every single time

01:13:39

I read there's prejudicial ignoring the Greek and Latin He again proof texts it

01:13:50

What I'm seeing is Is someone who reads

01:13:57

Augustine takes notes about stuff that he can take shots at and Then compiles it into this dissertation

01:14:06

Into a lot of the argumentation not all of it, but a lot of it Then that sound like then that sound like something you would write down as you're reading

01:14:13

You give a reference and ignoring both the Greek and Latin He again proof text Ephesians 2 8 for faith is

01:14:18

God's gift This heralds an alarming repetition of an a priori theology driving an impossible exegesis of a crucial text

01:14:26

What did Augustine actually say Augustine actual? Here's what he says his last clause runs thus.

01:14:34

I have kept the faith But he who says this is the same who declares in another passage.

01:14:41

I have obtained mercy that I might be faithful He does not say I obtained mercy because I was faithful But in order that I might be faithful thus showing that even faith itself cannot be had without God's mercy and That it is the gift of God This he very expressly teaches us when he says for by grace are you saved through faith and that not of yourselves is the gift?

01:15:04

of God they might possibly say we received grace because we believed as If they would attribute the faith to themselves and the grace to God therefore the

01:15:15

Apostle having said you are saved through faith added and that not of yourselves, but it is the gift of God and Again, lest they should say they deserve so great a gift by their works.

01:15:25

He immediately added not of works lest any man should boast Not that he denied good works or emptied them of their value when he says that God renders to every man according to his works

01:15:35

But because works proceed from faith and not faith from works Therefore it is from him that we have works of righteousness

01:15:43

From whom comes also faith itself concerning which it is written. The just shall live by faith

01:15:51

How about you? But it may be dr.

01:15:57

Wilson's intention to Provide reasons to dislike

01:16:03

Augustine But the more I get to read of Augustine He sounds a whole lot more focused and on target than dr.

01:16:12

Wilson does a whole lot more I hope you're appreciating it. These are important issues and These are issues we have conversations about to this very day

01:16:23

We really do because the relationship of grace faith works merit vitally important Can't can't avoid it can't avoid it

01:16:34

Um continue on page 100 Augustine Augustine exposed as absurd the radical manichaean doctrine of divine unilateral predetermination of individual's eternal destinies devoid of personal accountability

01:16:51

Fortunatus here. He is again Cited John 14 6 no one can come to the father except through me since quote he chose

01:17:00

Souls worthy of himself for his own. Holy will and were imbued with a faith

01:17:05

Fortunatus three night. This is important Because remember we've talked about manichaean cosmology and we have come to understand that salvation is by digestion and That the elect are not chosen

01:17:32

The elect in manichaeism does not mean elect in the Bible and That there really isn't that you trying to create a parallel is trying to create something that simply doesn't exist but in the

01:17:50

West once manichaeism began interacting with the church debates took place

01:17:57

Arguments took place. Here's one of them Fortunatus is quoted as saying he chose souls worthy of himself for his own will and were imbued with the faith

01:18:06

What did Augustine? Actually say in that reference. This is interesting

01:18:13

Fortunatus said and our profession is this very thing that God is incorruptible lucid unapproachable

01:18:19

Intentable impassable that he inhabits his own eternal lights and that nothing corruptible proceeds from him neither darkness demon

01:18:25

Satan or anything adverse Can be found in his kingdom. So in other words That's all the kingdom of light all the rest that stuff's in the kingdom of darkness

01:18:33

But that he sent forth a savior like himself member of manichaeism. That's not the historical Jesus.

01:18:39

There are a couple of different Jesus's that the word born from the foundation of the world when he had formed the world after the formation of the world came among men when he had formed the world so that's weird because many

01:18:52

There was no formation from the kingdom of light After the formation of the world came among men that he has chosen souls worthy of himself according to his own holy will sanctified by celestial command

01:19:04

Imbued with the faith and reason of celestial things that under his leadership those souls will return Hence again to the kingdom of God according to the holy promise of him who said

01:19:12

I am the way the truth and the door They always say the door for some reason. I'm not sure and No one could come unto me except through me

01:19:21

That's not a direct quotation either These things we believe because otherwise that is through another mediator souls cannot return to the kingdom of God unless they find him as the way the truth and the door remember the door is the

01:19:37

Releasing of the light Milky Way moon Sun back in the kingdom of light isn't amazing how you can clothe

01:19:46

Such a utterly unbiblical and untenable perspective in biblical biblical language

01:19:56

This would have been extremely I Don't know if I would have been able to follow this as well

01:20:07

If I had first been introduced manichaeism if I hadn't already had decades of knowledge of Mormonism Because Mormonism takes our language and clothes a wildly different understanding of God and Who he is and the universe and everything else in Christian language?

01:20:36

But you gotta admit the Mormon story Isn't as weird as a manichaean story.

01:20:43

I mean at least you still have personal gods and And you don't have exaltation by digestion

01:20:52

Better than riches making faces and everything

01:21:00

Mmm Wilson page 172 Oh Is this the one

01:21:09

I thought there was somewhere in here There it is.

01:21:15

Good. Good. Good. Good. Good. This is what I wanted to get to and we're running out of time Wilson page 172 Augustin misses the context

01:21:22

I'm not I'm just quoting this stuff and Every single quote is a shot at Augustin at house

01:21:28

How what a false teacher he was and how badly he manhandled scripture and all the rest of those is

01:21:36

Augustin misses the context those having already believed in Christ John 8 31 to 32 of setting

01:21:42

Christians free from the experiential slavery of sin now I marked that and I want to make sure you catch that because This I think is a situation where his theology comes in Because in John 8 31 so Jesus was saying to those

01:22:04

Jews who believed in him if You continue in my word, then you are truly disciples of mine.

01:22:09

You will know the truth and truth will make you free Now remember by the end of the chapter, these are the people picking up stones to stone

01:22:16

Jesus These are not true believers, but remember in his theology everybody's true believer Everybody believes the true believers.

01:22:22

No such thing as false faith. So I think that's what this comment is that Augustin misses the context those having already believed in Christ of Setting Christians free from the experiential slavery of sin.

01:22:38

So yeah, this is what he's arguing He's actually arguing that what you have in John 8 It's one sentence.

01:22:44

But what you have in John 8 is that what's going on here is they've already been saved and What Jesus is now saying is if you continue my word, then you are true my disciples, you know truth truth make you free

01:22:58

Free from the slavery to sin See, this is what happens when you will not recognize that Jesus's parables about the soil the warnings

01:23:08

Jesus gives there are False believers. There are people who say they have faith that do not have faith and see this is when you get when you become

01:23:18

So over emphasized on the autonomy of the human will that as long as there's faith, that's faith

01:23:24

You're safe. Boom, then you're looking at John chapter 8 and the guys that pick up stones to stone. Jesus are going to heaven

01:23:31

Bing bing bing bing Wow He teaches

01:23:38

I'm going back to Wilson He teaches human will is free only to sin by nature since free choice has not been set free by the

01:23:46

Savior He assumes Philippians 1 28 to 29 means initial faith is given by God Although absent in the text

01:23:59

Although absent in the text. Let me come back to that one.

01:24:05

Let me read the rest of it After using Ephesians 4 23, he applies John 6 44 catch this

01:24:11

Exactly as Fortunatus the Manichaean had done. Are you starting to get this type of argumentation now?

01:24:18

It's it's all guilt by association so I Can find many places where Ken Wilson?

01:24:25

Will give the same interpretation of Jehovah's Witness gives therefore Ken Wilson is actually a Jehovah's Witness right

01:24:33

Why not? He doesn't do Augustine on every page Well, you have to establish a connection.

01:24:40

Well, let's say let's say Ken Wilson was was converted from Jehovah's Witnesses Would that be enough or is no one ever really truly converted really the question?

01:24:51

Um after Yet Augustine had objected to the Manichaeans misusing John 6 44 for divine unilateral predetermination of eventual eternal destinies

01:24:59

Did Fortunatus or Augustine write the following? There's a long quotation Augustine synthesizes Christian free choice with Gnostic Manichaean and Neoplatonic divine unilateral predetermination

01:25:10

Individuals eternal destinies by adopting stoic freedom into a non free free will it is damned at birth only free to sin until free

01:25:18

Are you seeing that? This is just simply the repetition the same thing over and over again without any meaningful argumentation actually accompanying it

01:25:25

Yeah, I mean just just look at Gnostic Manichaean Neoplatonic Justin oh and and Stoic there we go.

01:25:34

Almost at all. I'm only miss come Ron all thrown into a single sentence Even though each one of them has very different cosmologies backgrounds understanding of God understanding of man understanding of the will understanding of everything

01:25:48

But as long as you can find one thing to just stick them all together. Oh, and it happens to be the same thing those

01:25:54

Calvinists believe For completely different reasons, but that's my bat and I'm gonna swing it.

01:25:59

I'm gonna keep swinging it hard It keeps swinging it hard. That's what this is That's what this is

01:26:11

There is by the way, no citation of John 6 44 in that section Fortunatus 16 to 22 let alone any doobie

01:26:18

This is not there I'm not gonna I'm not gonna read six sections to you, but I read it and there's nothing there.

01:26:24

There's nothing there But I want to go back to Philippians 128 29 specifically 129 and I Want to do something here

01:26:41

Oops Now are you able to get this?

01:26:49

Oh Look at that In that pretty ah Good. This is what I wanted to get to we'll close off the show with with this

01:26:58

Even though I'm starting to get a little bit Sensitive to saying things like that because I've been picking on Jeff and how many times

01:27:03

Jeff will say in a sermon We'll close with this and it'll say then we'll close this and then our last point is and and and in one sermon

01:27:11

He did it six times. And so now I'm starting to get a little paranoid when I say stuff like that, too I need to be careful

01:27:17

Love you, Jeff. Anyway Here is Philippians 129 And I I've broken it into the phrases so you can see

01:27:28

What it is. The Apostle Paul says because to you

01:27:33

It has been granted. See see the term here Echarist a You see the root same root as chorus grace.

01:27:42

It has been granted has been given to you Tahu per Christu in behalf of Christ So who mean is plural so he's talking to the church at Philippi So to the

01:27:56

Church of Philippi it has been granted you in behalf of Christ. So the

01:28:02

Spirit of God Accomplishing the glorification of Jesus Christ in the will of the Father It has been granted to the believers at Philippi in the church umana not only

01:28:13

Ta ice out on piste wine Allah Kai, but also

01:28:21

Tahu pair out to paschine. So please notice you have what's called an infinitive here if you see the

01:28:28

I'm ending piste wine the infinitive piste wine and then paschine to suffer to believe to suffer infinitival forms so What has been granted to the church in behalf of Christ not only

01:28:47

So the umana is paired with Allah Kai. So that's that's Umana on Allah kite.

01:28:53

Not only this but also that that's a standard Phraseology in in Greek. So there's two things that have been granted

01:29:01

Not only ta ice out on piste wine Not only to believe in him

01:29:09

But also on behalf of him to suffer now

01:29:16

Let me just ask a simple question Can you minimize that down because it should be big enough to see if it's in a small box.

01:29:24

There we go is it a part of God's sovereign will

01:29:36

That his people suffer in behalf of the name of Jesus If you have to even think about the answer to that one, you've never read the book of Acts because it is

01:29:49

In fact Paul talks about he talks to the Colossians about our filling up the sufferings of Christ because we're in the body and It's a mysterious thing

01:30:03

It's a very spiritual thing, but it is God's intention that our sufferings

01:30:10

Bring glory to Christ and that they are a part of his sufferings through us. It's an amazing thing It has been granted to believers in behalf of Christ that they suffer for him

01:30:21

If that if the middle for section wasn't there No one would really have any objections to what is said here could be very clear

01:30:34

It has been granted you in behalf of Christ to suffer For his sake

01:30:42

But that's not all it says not only to believe in him

01:30:49

But also to suffer for his sake So if This Infinitive, this is an infinitival phrase.

01:30:59

So you have an article to front see top top is to you on Todd's phone is is Making this a

01:31:08

Infinitival phrase so you put the ice out on in between the article and the infinitive make this

01:31:14

Again, this is how Greek paints with colors Can do it with parables here.

01:31:20

You're doing with infinitives, but notice the parallel if ta with Pascrine here is

01:31:31

What is granted up here? Then ta with Pistewine is what is granted here as well.

01:31:42

It is granted for you to believe in him Pistewo, I believe that's faith pistis faith.

01:31:54

That's what it says It's been granted you to believe in him Now what did?

01:32:02

Dr. Wilson say I'll bring that down now. There we go

01:32:10

What did dr. Wilson say? At the end of that section

01:32:18

That it was absent from the text ignoring

01:32:23

Greek and Latin absent from the text It's not absent from the text at all.

01:32:29

It's right there. It's right in front of us It's right in front of us. So I appreciate the opportunity once again to have been able to explain

01:32:40

Where that is coming from what scriptures are saying and Provide correction to the errors found in dr.

01:32:49

Wilson's dissertation at Oxford There's more to come there's more to come and Chris on our team has been posting materials to our blog.

01:33:05

It's really nice to have somebody other than me as I mentioned there are

01:33:10

Two gentlemen who are actually working on a book we're gonna find a time when they are closer to the completion of that work to have them on as well and You know,

01:33:24

I would think that this would be invited by the other side Because I mean

01:33:29

I know I Know my dr. Votter For my

01:33:35

PhD work if it can get past him and get past anybody I don't have to worry about my my doctor advisor did his

01:33:43

PhD under Metzger. I Can't do this kind of stuff. I can't get away with it.

01:33:48

Now the subject matter is completely different. There's no question about that But I can't I can't get away with unsubstantiated

01:33:56

Biased prejudiced statements, but not even gonna try I would be embarrassed to do it

01:34:04

So and once again They started calling us, right?

01:34:11

Rich, I just just want to make sure for those of you people are good. I just can't believe I'll be in terrible nasty

01:34:18

We're doing we're doing what we've been challenged to do and hopefully edifying in the process so Lord willing on Thursday.

01:34:29

Oh Yeah, Lord willing we'll be back together again on Thursday and I appreciate the attention that you give the support you've been giving to us.