Will Spencer: From the New Age Movement to Christianity

From Jewish Background to New Age Spiritual Seeking

Welcome to the Conversations That Matter podcast. I'm your host, John Harris, for an exciting and interesting discussion today with someone who hasn't been on the program before, and that is Will Spencer.

Hey, Will, how are you doing?

Doing great, John. Thanks for having me on.

So I haven't, I'm gonna be honest, I'm not extremely familiar with you, but you, as Twitter, I mean, there's blessings and curses with Twitter, and one of the blessings was you made a comment on a recent video, which I will not play for people, but if people wanna know the image from the video I'm talking about, it's this one, with this girl who went down to Peru and talked about, I guess, trying, I think, hallucinogenic drugs and being with shamans and all this stuff.

And anyway, you basically said that you've done all this stuff and it's a dead end, right?

Very much so, yes.

And then I found out we had some mutual friends and you have a great podcast. If people wanna check that out, it's called The Renaissance of Men. They can go to renofmen .com. And so I just thought it'd be interesting to talk to you about that, because you sent me a list of all the things that you've done, like as far as, I don't know if you call it New Age.

Or what may be New Age, but Yeah, New Age healing modalities.

You got deep, like you got really, really deep into it. So I'm gonna just kind of let you talk and share your story, and then you're a Christian, so how did you make your way out of that? How did the Lord work in your life so that you rejected the New Age movement stuff and you embraced Christianity?

So why don't we start with this? So you have a public platform, you have a podcast, I know you've talked about masculinity related things, and I know you're talking more now about like this New Age stuff.

And this video becomes viral on Twitter that you decide to comment on. It seemed to me like some people, like the people who would be more positive about what this young lady was saying or singing about, they think that there's this sort of like new perspective they have on life, like this awakening, this understanding that's beyond, that transcends the understanding that we mortals normally have.

And some people were giving testimonies to like, yeah, there's some legitimacy in this. So that's I guess my first question is, did you find when you started down this track that there was something that drew you in that seemed legitimate, that seemed like it gave you some kind of a spiritual perspective?

Eastern Mysticism and Western Occultism as Two Halves of the Same Coin

It seemed that way. And I did receive what I thought was value, but from a Christian perspective, it's valueless. But it doesn't look that way from inside. So people go to the new age world seeking two things, enlightenment or secret knowledge and betterment or healing, right?

And those are the only two things to find in that world. So when you enter into the new age, and different people are interested in different things, it tends to be the men are probably more interested in secret knowledge, mysticism, and the women are more interested in betterment and healing, but it's not necessarily even in that regard.

So the secret knowledge, secret knowledge has two halves. There's Eastern mysticism, which is Hinduism, Buddhism, prana, chi, kundalini, yoga, all these terms that have forced their way into American consciousness in the past 60 or so years, following the 1960s and the Beatles mostly.

So there's Eastern mysticism, but on the flip side of that, there's Western occultism. And Western occultism is things like tarot, right? Kabbalah is a part of that. Astrology, alchemy, right? These are two halves of the same coin.

And so usually what happens is by entering in, Westerners will be attracted by the Eastern mysticism and end up in the Western occultism, which is explicitly Luciferian and satanic, like explicitly anti-Christ.

The Eastern mysticism doesn't come off that way at first, right, because it's just this exotic foreign culture. It's appealing, it's different. There was this wholesale rejection of Western values that began with the boomers in the 1960s, then in the 50s too, and then it propagated through their kids.

So Generation X, millennials, et cetera. And so there's this appeal of the other in Eastern mysticism. Now, just a real quick, when you're looking at that woman, that photo from that video, she is wearing all kinds of indigenous kind of symbols and traditions, dreadlocks and stuff like that.

Yeah, exactly. So like the stage that the new age is at now is that's kind of moved on from Eastern mysticism and now is kind of like fetishizing indigenous traditions, again, as explicit rejection of Western culture.

So that's what you're looking at. You're looking at the rejection of Western culture appealing to Western kids, essentially. So that's Eastern mysticism, then it leads into Western occultism, which is satanic in nature, like explicitly so in many ways.

Like you saw that at the statue in the sculpture in Iowa that got torn down by that man, praise God for him. Like you're starting to see it bubble up to the surface of American consciousness. So that's the secret knowledge.

I mean, we can talk about that first and then we can talk about the betterment if you want, because that shows up in yoga and stuff like that. And it's a whole, that's its own whole conversation.

So is that what attracted you first? And then like, when were you attracted? How did that movement from whatever you were before to Eastern and mystical stuff start?

Well, I grew up Jewish, liberal atheist Jewish. And so Christianity, of course, was far outside of my realm, like any world that I grew up in. Bar Mitzvah, we celebrated Hanukkah. We didn't celebrate Christmas.

We went to high holiday services. I did my birthright Israel trip and we can talk about what that is. But I always had this interest in God. Like I've always been, I guess, innately curious. It's a gift.

And the story that I've told is when I was 12 years old, getting ready for my Bar Mitzvah, I was with the rabbi and my Torah portion was the 10 commandments. And so this was assigned providentially. Like I didn't pick that.

You don't get to pick your Torah portion. It's just, this is what's being read this week. And so what was being read the week of my Bar Mitzvah was the 10 commandments, so score. So I was talking with the rabbi at age 12 and the rabbi said something along the lines of the second half of the 10 commandments are there so you don't violate the first half of the 10 commandments.

And I remember being 12 years old and I was like, that's interesting. Like I wouldn't have thought that there was that logic to them in a way. And so I would say I identify that as the beginning of my interest in spirituality.

So a religion broadly. So then I went to college in the Bay Area and this is in 1999, 2000, 2001. You had this big, you know, they have the rave scene at the time. There's this exploding Eastern mysticism kind of world.

And so that was how I got involved in Eastern mysticism. And then it wasn't until 2013, 2014 that I made a viral post on Facebook and someone reached out to me and said, are you interested in learning about Kabbalah?

I'm like, sure, I've never explored that before. And so I trained with an online, they call themselves a mystery school. It was a correspondence course where I would get a series of lessons in the mail at the start of every month and I would work through one lesson per week.

And so it was, I got two years into a 15 year program. I passed a couple different exams. So this was like a daily practice for me. So that's how I got introduced to Western occultism and God prevented me, I believe, from going any further with that because the later lessons were explicitly about making contact with higher beings is what they said.

And so naturally we can imagine what those higher beings would have been and wouldn't have been.

Twenty Years in New Age Practices and the Illusion of Manifesting Reality

So did you, you went down to the Andes though. That's what I think you had said. And you like spent time with shamans and, so like your understanding of mystical religion is pretty broad. Like you tried a lot of different things from a lot of different traditions.

How long were you in that world?

So I would say that I was actively engaged in kind of new age practices for about 20 years at different levels of intensity. So from Jungian psychology, which I took in college, Carl Jung is really bad, by the way.

I recommend the book, The Other Worldview by Dr. Peter Jones. He has a whole section on Carl Jung and he's like way worse than even I knew. And so then I would be just living in the Bay Area in San Francisco.

It's just what you do. Right, you go to a yoga class or you go see a transpersonal psychotherapist or you do sound healing. It's just part of the culture. And so that I spent a bunch of time overseas between 2016 and 2020.

And that was a big part of my travels was to go experience different religions and cultures and spiritualities of the world. And so again, from my own individual search for God, I was going the directions that I knew about.

Because again, Christianity was not, it wasn't really part of my worldview. I didn't understand it. That came later.

Yeah, what were some of the experiences that you had? And I'm sure you don't want to share all of them, but like some things that stand out to you as like, I don't know, something happened that made you think this is legitimate and kept you, because I think you had mentioned, it's like trying to chase the rainbow.

It's always in front of you, but you never quite reach it.

Yeah, yeah, that's correct. So we'll talk about the secret knowledge first. So the secret knowledge of that world is all about being able to manifest like reality with your mind. Like you, by embodying the secret knowledge and mastering it, you have the ability to master reality and bend reality to your will.

This is what the movie, The Matrix is essentially about. Like Neo becomes this master who can bend reality to his will. That's literally what the secret knowledge allegedly teaches. So along the way, there are various tests to try and do that.

And then things happen and it's like, oh wow, I was successful. It's like the secret, you know what I mean? Like maybe there's no reality to it, or maybe there's some supernatural reality, infernal supernatural reality to it, but it seems like it's working and it becomes very seductive, right?

So there's that. And then the inner healing component is all about healing from trauma, right? How to work through trauma, how to release it, how to go through things in your childhood and feel relief about them, right?

How to grieve. And there's value in that, but it doesn't actually make you a better person because it doesn't include the component of sin. It's just, this happened to me. I feel sad and mad about it.

And now I feel less sad and bad about it. So like, congratulations, I got past this little bit of victimhood. Like, no, it's like, it doesn't teach people to become better people because it doesn't force them to confront their flaws.

So on one hand, I had this perception that I was making, I was manifesting reality in various ways. Like nothing serious, but like it seemed like it was working and I'm feeling a sense of subjective relief in terms of my own inner relationship with my past.

So it seems like something's happening, but really nothing's happening at all. And it's hard for me to imagine the world, the mindset that I was in at the time because I'm in such a different place now.

It's actually strange to go back to that, that I believe that stuff, but I'm absolutely not alone.

Astrology, Demons, and the Search for Meaning in the Stars

Yeah, I mean, the list you sent me, I don't even know how to pronounce some of these words. Like ayahuasca.

Ayahuasca, that's a very popular one right now, actually.

Yeah, it shows how much I know about this stuff.

You're blessed.

I think there's like a bunch of drugs here. And then you also talk about like, like what's family constellation therapy? I saw that one. I was like, what is that?

So family constellation therapy is, it's a way of understanding your family and how the different hangups and flaws of your family influenced you as a person. So who was your mother? Who was your father?

Who are your grandparents? Who are your cousins? And how do you orient yourself in the constellation of these individuals and how did they impact you and essentially like cause you pain and generate the circumstances of your life that you were out of control of?

Okay, all right. So some of this stuff is like semi-psychological and these would be tools, I guess, used by some psychologists in the West.

Yes.

And maybe more so. I mean, it shows how much I know. I still kind of associate psychologists with more of like a hard science. Like they're trying to figure out what's going on with someone using certain models and theories that have been tested and that kind of thing.

But I could be wrong. Maybe it is more just Eastern now.

Yeah, that's Carl Jung's influence. So the image, yeah, the image that most people have of psychology today is Freudian, right? Maybe Adler, right? Or cognitive behavioral therapy, things like that. That's a more, we'll call it mechanistic kind of version of, yeah, exactly.

Versus Carl Jung and Stanislav Grof who started transpersonal psychology, which is purely mystical. You can read Jung's Red Book or you can read Stanislav Grof and you can see just how driven by Eastern mysticism and mystical all is one concepts their psychology is.

And that's a lot of psychology today.

Not to get on the rabbit show, but isn't Jordan Peterson a Jungian?

Yep.

He is, okay.

That's kind of a problem, right?

It is.

Yeah, I just saw his live show here in Phoenix two weeks ago. And so I was on Cultish with Jeremiah Roberts and we talked about it, but he has some good personal growth stuff to say for men and for women too.

But his interpretations of the Bible are viewed through a Jungian lens. And so in 2017, when he was not a no-name professor, but not of high profile, it was fun to watch his Genesis lectures and to see him shine a new light for a small audience on Cain and Abel.

But now as he's this global leading public intellectual, to hear him do it, it hits very different.

Gotcha. Okay, so, I mean, there's a bunch of stuff here that I could probably ask you about, but yeah, and I don't even know. I do wanna ask you about some of it.

Please.

The astrology. So explain that aspect of this whole thing to me, because some of these seem like they're, like taking drugs is like looking into yourself, right? Like you're, I think you're trying to figure out like the truth is within you somewhere and you need to figure it out and you need these drugs to like look in.

Yes.

But something like astrology is looking out, like you're not looking into yourself, you're looking at the cosmos and trying to figure out, I guess, where you fit in, which I think for Christians, that's probably more attractive in a way that like there at least is a sense of like, there's a plan, there's transcendence.

I mean, we even have Bible verses about, that I think are taken out of context, but about how God gave us signs for seasons and the stars, the moon, the sun. And so what's the significance of that in the new age world when they look at the stars?

Are they seeing like a deterministic plan of some kind by God or like what is it they're doing?

What Astrology Promises and Why It Becomes Spiritism

Yeah, so astrology at the highest level is, and this is not often talked about, it's an intuitive art. So you give someone your birth time and your birthplace, right? And then they get a chart, which is a circle that shows the position of all the planets and stuff like that.

And so they look at that and then supposedly they're able to look at various other times in the past when planets and stars, right? Planets lined up in a particular way. Oh, and this must have happened on like April 31st, 2019, because if you run it back, they lined up in this particular way.

Did something big happen around that time?

Okay.

And so then they run it forward and they can see other alignments, right? And they can say, well, something big will probably happen in the future, that it's all foreordained written in the stars, right?

Which are unique at your time and place and moment of birth. Like there's no two people that are born in precisely the same moment at the same time except for twins. And I'd be very interested to know how that works with twins, but that's a whole other conversation.

So what people are turned to astrology for is they want to know that the events of their lives have meaning. They want to know that this thing that happened in the past is tied to this thing that happened in the future and that there's a narrative to my life and that I'm going somewhere.

Like that's the comfort, right? And that these things have significance, again, in a godless world, in a God of the Bible-less kind of world. It's reassuring. But what they don't tell you is that it's not a mathematical calculation.

The astrologer is not looking at it and running numbers and just spitting out a result. Skilled astrologers are intuitives, and I believe that they're called friendly spirits, right, not so friendly, that are giving them information from a higher plane of reality that makes the astrologer appear like, or a lower plane of reality, that makes the astrology appear like they have wisdom that they're deriving from the chart.

When in fact, they're just hearing messages from these spirits. It's not different from other forms of spiritism, like I'm gonna communicate with the dead and all that you're doing is communicating with a demon that was able to look back at something and pull some information out.

And so it's like, oh, I'm talking to my mom or my dad or whatever. It's the same thing, but they leave out the part that there's an intuitive component to it. And so what you're being given, you may be given something true, but the truth is wrapped around a very poisonous lie.

And the lie is both, you can imagine that if someone tells you something true about your past, like that there's no way they could know, you may listen to what they have to say about what you should do for your future.

And if it's being guided by a demon on some level, they're probably not gonna send you to do something that's ultimately in your interest. And that's the danger of astrology.

So give me like an example for maybe from your life, like what was something when you got into astrology that you saw maybe like a date correlated and what does it mean for you significantly?

Yeah, so there was an astrologer I talked to, I'm gonna guess on dates, maybe it was like 2017, 2018. And he was looking back at my chart and he was like, well, was the dates of like January 21, 2016 significant to you somewhere around there?

I'm like, you know, I was like, yeah. I was like, were you looking into travel or something at the time? And I was like, yeah, actually, that's the day that I bought my plane ticket to fly down to South America.

You know, we could break up with a girlfriend and like, you know, that was when I finally bought the ticket. And so I heard that, it was like, oh my gosh, travel, how did he know? Like I had the recording of it.

So it seemed very credible, like of all things to say and of the date in particular, it seemed very, very credible. How did he get that information? I don't know. But I wouldn't say that like the advice that he gave me following it was, I mean, I could go back and listen, probably wasn't awesome.

But it certainly lent him credibility in various ways.

Okay.

Yeah, no, that's interesting. You just said something I think you hadn't said before, which is that demons were behind this.

Yeah.

I try to avoid that word. It tends to turn people, it tends to switch off people's brains.

Well, you're, this is a Christian podcast. So, you know, the audience still, yeah, hopefully believes in demons. But, you know, I would assume that this applies to a lot of the things that you were doing, like the past life regression, hypnotherapy and EMDR and all this stuff.

Do you think that it's all essentially demonic?

Probably.

Yeah.

I mean, EMDR is a bit different. EMDR is like, it's a form of hypnosis almost. It's probably not doing it justice, but it's just, it's someone asking you questions about an experience that's difficult.

So there's no, there doesn't need to be any supernatural component to it. It felt very mechanical, but certainly of the list that I sent you, a great majority of those probably are demonic. Like ayahuasca is a classic example.

In their own literature, and everyone listening who will hear about ayahuasca very soon who has heard about it, what you're doing when you drink this psychedelic brew is you are consenting to commune with a spirit, they call it the plant spirit, grandmother ayahuasca, who then, you know, works on your quote, energy body to heal you and give you secret knowledge.

And so they refer to this as a conscious entity, you know, a plant spirit, multiple plant spirits. And by drinking this brew, you're able, and that's the consent to do that. And what is that? That I guarantee you that grandmother ayahuasca, whoever she or it is, isn't preaching the gospel, right?

So, yeah, so, and that's how you know.

Yoga, the Sexual Revolution, and the Rejection of Western Christianity

So, okay, so this reminds me of like the whole, you know, like first John, or is it first John test the spirit, see if they were from God, right? So this is kind of like, as Christians interact with these ideas, what they have to do to figure out whether it's legitimate or not.

So like, I don't know, I'll just pick one out of the hat. I'll pick what I don't know any about, Philip Shepard embodiment. I don't know who Philip Shepard is, but, so if some, let's say a Christian is confronted with whatever this is, so you'll have to explain it.

How would they test the spirits?

Right, so then the question with Philip Shepard embodiment, embodiment is one of those things that there's a way in which we can get in touch. This is the argument, the same argument as yoga. All I'm doing is just stretching, right?

It's fine, right? The problem with yoga is that the spectrum of practices of yoga, because this is, yoga will be the easiest one for people to kind of tie on rather than Philip Shepard's kind of, yeah.

Because everyone kind of knows, like there are 35 million yoga practitioners in America, I read. So with yoga, there's a spectrum. Like you, okay, sure. You can do, you can go to like the local YMCA or 24 Hour Fitness and just do a bunch of poses and there's not a single religious component.

You don't chant Aum, nothing. They never even tell you that these poses have Hindu names. So it's completely stripped away of all possible religious connotations. And so like, is that okay? Well, I mean, you can go to yogabasics .com and you can see that these poses do have names of Hindu deities, but you may not know that at the moment.

But then the spectrum, that's just the very tail end of it. All forms of yoga go in stages of gray to what we would consider explicitly religious practice, meaning like Bikram yoga, with all these contortionistic practices in a hot room with a Shiva statue chanting Aum.

You are there, therefore now participating in a religious ritual, right? And so the vast majority of yoga lives on the spectrum between there. Is there a Shiva statue? Are you doing corpse pose at the end?

Are you chanting Aum, right? As you start introducing these elements that work their way in, you begin moving away from the purely, we'll call it mechanical versions of yoga. There's very little bits of that.

And so yoga, the word itself means union or yoke with the divine, become one with the divine. That is the meaning of the word. And so even there, you can't separate it from the religious practice. Sorry, I just had some, yeah.

You're good. So wait, would you tell Christians like, because there's Christian yoga, I've seen this, right?

I've heard of it.

You've heard, yeah, okay. So I've seen at least advertisements. I've never been in a room doing it, but where they're, I would assume just stretching, I hope, like, would you say Christians stay away from that?

Like, it's just opening the door to a world you don't want to enter? Or, I mean, are people just slapping the label yoga on things that really aren't fully yoga?

Yeah, so, I mean, how uncomfortable do you want me to make your listeners?

No, you could say no yoga. I'm fine with that.

Well, I mean, like, I can explain to you who yoga is designed to appeal to, right, and why.

It's like, it's middle-class moms, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And so the movie, excuse me, the movie Eat, Pray, Love was very popular in the United States. Now, that doesn't mean that middle-class Christian moms were watching that movie, but it portrayed yoga as this very sensual, you know, kind of liberating, freeing thing from all the strictures of being a wife and a mother and all the responsibilities, and I just want to be free.

That's what that movie was about. And so yoga as a practice has been playing that role in American culture since the 1960s when it was introduced. It was part of the sexual revolution. A big part of the sexual revolution was progressive New Age Eastern spirituality, right?

It was woven right in there, right, as a rejection of Western Christian values. And so you can't just take that and you can't, you know, well, we're just gonna scrape off all the Hindu stuff and we're gonna slap some Christian labels on it and, you know, Bob's your uncle.

Like, that's not how that works. Like, there's a heart posture component to like, why are you engaging in these practices? What is it you're hoping to get from them? And the Christian yoga sites that I've seen are targeted to exactly the same people.

That doesn't mean you can't stretch and reach down and touch your toes. Doesn't mean you can't reach up and, you know, try and touch the ceiling and stretch your arms out to the side. Stretching was around long before yoga was, right?

Like, we can just do that, but you can't just take this Eastern mystical practice, which is what it is, and strip away any trappings of spirituality and call it Christian. Like, people say meet sacrifice to idols, and I roll my eyes at that because it's not that simple.

Yeah, I mean, I guess, so moda would play a part in this. Like, are you trying to release or develop a kundalini force? But then

That's part of it. Also the Yeah, at the extreme end.

Oh, yeah, I mean, I obviously, I don't know. I remember in gym class, you know, there was one day that they wanted to do a yoga thing, and I think I just, like, tried to take a nap. It was, it wasn't much.

They just played some alms, and you laid there and were supposed to, like, I guess, do different poses, but, you know, I didn't really participate in that. I guess I was there, and I'm wondering, I don't know if I should have been, like, should I have been there?

Like, now you have me second-guessing it a bit.

Like

You're probably okay being in the room because you're in school. Like, you don't have much of a choice, but, you know, it's not the end of the world, you know what I mean? Like, but this is the, go ahead.

I'm sorry, I don't mean to cut you off.

No, I really wasn't saying anything other than that, just spitballing about, like, where the line is. Is it the motivation? Is it because of the labels that are on these things? Is it the actual movements themselves?

Like, it's not just stretching, but it's also, like, with these added elements, because I don't really know all the yoga poses, but that are, you know, there's really not a health benefit, but it's a spiritual thing, like, or all of the above.

The question itself is what conceals the problem. Like, because it's almost, and you don't mean it this way, but the question

No, go for it.

Yeah, the question is a little bit like, well, can I just drink just a little bit of watered-down poison? How much poison is enough, right? And this is the thing, is that the world is very much with us, right?

These are not, like, these practices, go to Google, and you can, Google's graph, where you can see the usage of words over time, right? And you can search for the word yoga, and what you will see is that there is no use in Google's records of language going back 100 years until the 1960s.

And then it starts escalating in the 1960s, and it explodes in the 70s. These are not, you know, these are not harmless practices that just showed up one day. These were forced onto American Western consciousness explicitly to undermine the Christian faith, right?

And you can go back, and you can look at the Theosophical Society, Madame Blavatsky, the World Parliament, Chicago World Parliament of Religions in 1893, and you can see every religion represented there except biblical Orthodox Christianity.

This was an active attempt to subvert Christianity in the West. And so when people ask me, like, well, and I don't mean you, how much yoga can I do? Like, can I just check a little bit of astrology? Can I do just a little bit?

There you go, yeah, see? Right, so, like, this is not a coincidence. This is not an accident. This is orchestrated. And you can look at the UN, and you can see the UN Project for Oneness by Robert Mueller, and you can see that all of these things, you know, they've been forced onto American public consciousness exactly in line with the decline of Western Christianity, of biblical Christianity inside the United States.

This is the transition, as Aaron Wren says, from positive world to neutral world to negative world. And so when Christians are asking, but I like my yoga, I'm sorry. Like, go like it, but don't call it Christian.

The Top-Down Spread of New Age Spirituality in Modern America

Yeah, no, no, that's, I'm totally in agreement with you there. So for people who are wondering, it took me a minute to try to figure out how to get this on the screen, but I do have it on the screen. This is the list you sent me of all the different things that you've participated in before becoming a Christian.

And I wanna get to that soon, to your conversion. But you opened another can of worms I have to ask you about now, so.

Let's go.

I don't know if you would apply it to all of these practices, but the New Age stuff in general, you just stated that, or at least you alluded to the idea that this was like a top-down kind of move. Like you said, there was a theosophy society, and I think King Charles is, that's his philosophy, right?

Yep.

And so these guys, these powerful people essentially planned to subvert Christianity through introducing this stuff. Do you think, like, I'd be curious about the mechanism that, how that happened, if you think that's how it happened, or do you think that was in tandem with just, I don't know, globalization and just people from different ethnic backgrounds interacting and traveling and figuring stuff out?

I mean, or the Beatles, you know? Like, how do you think this actually became popularized?

Yeah, so there are a number of outstanding books about it. I'm working on one right now. So this is the book, Game of Gods by Karl Teichrib. And so I'm reading this right now. This is a big doorstop size book, 550 pages, extensively footnoted.

Yeah, so he's been an on-the-ground researcher for about 30 years, attending festivals and attending UN meetings and political gatherings, where an agenda of oneness, is the word that's used, is explicitly promoted.

We are all one, the earth is all one, you know, Mother Earth, like these kind of ideas. He's been on the ground doing this work for 30 years. He picked it up in the 90s. But this goes all the way back to the 1960s, and in fact, also the 1950s, right?

And so there's another book I have in the back called Libido Dominandi by E. Michael Jones. He's a controversial professor, but this is one of his first works that he wrote in the mid 90s. And this is the history of the sexual revolution.

And so you can see the seeds of that going all the way back to the French Revolution, essentially, right? So there have been consistent themes working for centuries to try and undermine Western biblical Christianity.

There's a book American, sorry about my voice. There's a book American Veda by, I can't remember the author's name, Philip something. He talks about the Hinduization of American religion. And then there's a couple others that I have in mind.

There have been a lot of books that have been written about this phenomenon as being orchestrated. You can look at Timothy Leary, funded by the CIA, right? You can look at Operation Midnight Climax, which were some of the first LSD experiments done on the population.

So this has been as uncomfortable as it is to say, this has been orchestrated. Yes, immigration, of course, is a part of that. Like people moving, traveling across the country, but you look at the Beatles and you look at the influence that they had, and there are all sorts of channels about what was actually going on behind the scenes with the Beatles.