November 10, 2015 Show with Sam Frost on “Hyper-Preterism: One Man’s Journey In & Out!

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This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this 10th day of

November 2015, and I'm very honored to have another first

-time guest on Iron Sharpens Iron on a very important issue.

This issue is hyperpreterism.

It's also known as full preterism.

Obviously those who adhere to it simply call it preterism.

They also call it realized eschatology, covenant eschatology, and I'm sure there are a number of other names for

it.

We are calling it hyperpreterism because we want to make sure you are aware we are identifying it

as an aberrant teaching, even a heresy, a very dangerous heresy at that,

and there is no one better to speak on that issue than someone who he

himself was involved very heavily in this movement.

In fact, he was one of the leaders in this movement and had a book published

while still in the movement by Don Preston, who is readily recognized

worldwide as probably the preeminent full preterist, and since

his exodus out of hyperpreterism, our guest Sam Frost has

written a book, Why I Left Full Preterism, and it's currently out of print, but we're waiting with

bated breath for it to be back out hot off the press again, God

willing, in the near future, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time to

Iron Sharpens Iron,.

Sam Frost.

Chris, thank you for having me.

It's a pleasure.

Well, I think it would be.

A good idea for our listeners to understand the basic tenets of preterism

and then you can also define what would be considered hyperpreterism and then

obviously partial preterism, which is something that many orthodox Bible -believing Christians

adhere to.

Well,

preterism

as a

term has been around for,

figured

into a

new view for many centuries and even in

the

reformed

circle.

So

basically

you're

saying

that

the

hyperpreterists

who call

themselves.

Simply preterists or realized eschatology advocates or covenant

eschatology advocates, they say that there is nothing left in

the scriptures from beginning to end, from Genesis to Revelation, there is nothing that has been prophesied in

that massive book we call the Bible that is not

already fulfilled and that has not already occurred.

By A .D. 70 at the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem.

Yeah, correct.

We were

trying

that all possible today,

presently, nothing to be fulfilled and, you know, that just,

you know, I was in it for years and as you stated before, I mean, I was one of the main leaders in

it with Don Preston, Ed Stephens, John Noe, I mean,

you know, I go way back into 2002, 2003.

I pastored a church for four years and had several conferences with Don Preston hosted there

and that was

evangelical hearings,

then the

whole thing goes up.

When you say that the full preterists or hyperpreterists believe that there is nothing left to be

fulfilled, would that include the scriptures that commonly orthodox

believers.

View as depicting heaven and hell?

Well, go

ahead.

Well, do

the main figures like

Don Preston believe there is

a heaven

awaiting?

They do.

Yeah, he does.

He sees

it and basically we don't have anything really going for us

and that's it.

The nation Israel is

fulfilled by A .D. 70 and.

That's that.

I'm going to give our email address if anybody would like to join us on the air with a

question of your own regarding this topic.

My email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z

-e -n at gmail .com and please give us your first name, your city and state of residence

and your country of residence if you live outside the USA and we eagerly urge you to

email us with a question whether you agree with Sam, whether you are radically opposed to what

Sam is saying or whether you just don't know.

A lot of people may be totally unaware of anything called preterism and so you may

ask questions as well.

Again, it's chrisarnsen at gmail .com c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at

gmail .com.

So, tell us something about your upbringing, how you became a Christian

and eventually how you discovered and entered into hyper -preterism.

Yeah,

these

men

that

you

just

listed

are

all

within

the

camp

of

post

-millennial

partial.

Preterists which is considered by most Christians to be orthodox.

Obviously, there are dispensationalists and even amillennialists who would not consider it orthodox

but most Christians who understand that

eschatology is not something that we should necessarily start a war over or divide

over as long as it contains the main tenets of the faith

which some of those things are denied by the hyper -preterists.

Some of the very important tenets which we could get into in a moment but these are post -millennial

partial preterists who first started to get you thinking about the early date of the writing of the

bible and other things, right?

Yeah, definitely.

It was

in a

footnote

in his commentary, Days of Vengeance,

ex -king in Warren, Ohio.

He found his book and read it.

I read it again.

That's the 700 page cross in the parisian and I read it again and I thought,

there's something going on here.

There in the school where I myself, I'm a full

preterist.

I knew what that meant in the faith,

you know, as a child and growing up and having a groundwork already laid.

I was wanting to make full preterism something that would be the

next theology, that this is a break, this is

going to help

the Christian orthodox puzzle together.

This is what the church needs to be saying and here and there, going back to

Irenaeus and Justin Marger, they say it in both bits and pieces but now we're going to say it fully.

But we're not taking anything away from the church, the power of the church, the

power of Jesus Christ.

No, when you are saying this in your mind, you're still...

In my mind, yeah.

Is this when you are still at this point a partial preterist?

Well, this is when I didn't

see all

of

the

ramifications

of the

faith.

So that...

It's exciting.

The thing that's interesting is you say this is exciting and is it really

just exciting because you believe you have discovered secret knowledge of some kind that nobody

else has discovered?

Because there's nothing really exciting innately about hyper -preterism.

It's a very depressing eschatology and that's why it's amazing that some people go from...

They leap from a very optimistic eschatology like post -millennialism, which is the

most optimistic eschatology, then you leap immediately into

the most pessimistic eschatology there could possibly be.

Yeah.

The

more

years I got into

it, the

more

I saw

that, man,

this is...

I'm having to leave.

I'm starting to go into all kinds of stuff.

That's where...

Before we even go into your leaving the hyper -preterism, while you

just joined it and are getting immersed into it, in fact, becoming a rising star

in the group, what happened with those who were your Christian brothers and sisters and friends

who were not full preterists when this occurred?

Did you get alienated or shunned or what was happening?

Yeah, a few of them did in.

This senior year.

Just keep

in mind, I'm...

Were you

affiliated with the

Orthodox Baptist Church in Pensacola at all?

Oh, I know who you're talking about, Mark.

They, at least at one time...

Many times.

Yeah, they were at one time hyper -preterists, correct?

I don't

know.

Well, I'm speaking of actually a church.

Years ago when I first started to discover hyper -preterism.

There was a church called the Orthodox Baptist Church in Pensacola and they were

hyper -preterists.

Obviously, they didn't call themselves hyper -preterists, but they were full preterists.

Oh, no.

No, I'm not of them.

Okay.

Well, and my apologies to any other church called the Orthodox Baptist Church that is not full preterist

in Pensacola, but I distinctly remember there was one there, and I don't know if

it still is full preterist or not.

So, who were the people that really got you

moving up the ladder there?

Like, for instance, how did Don Preston discover who you are and why would he be so excited about you

that he published your work?

Well, again, reading Max

King, and then

I

contacted

Max out,

and then

they had

their Max King and Tim King were, and we met, talked, and there I met Ed Stevens, John Bowie,

Randall Otto, I think was there.

There was a few others that had a full preterist conference after R .C. Spoole's conference.

So, I went to that and started talking with them, and

their work at

Hebrew at Reformed Theological Seminary in Orlando under Bruce Waltke,

and he was doing them.

And so, putting this all together, I'm like, wow, Max King's really making some

getting into these guys.

But there was something about Soraya's book about sola scriptura and the way that he handled the argument of

sola scriptura that I still disagree with, and that's why I wrote

a manuscript called Misplaced.

Yeah, we're starting to break up a little bit with your cell phone, hopefully.

Hopefully, we could remain in one place where it remains a strong signal.

Is this better now?

Yes, it is.

Well, first of all, obviously, we have to distinguish between R .C. Spoole and the

hyperpreterist.

When you say he mentioned Max King, was he doing that?

Not endorsing him.

Right, right.

Because I know R .C. Spoole had become a partial preterist, but he was never

one to endorse the full preterism.

In fact, someone on staff there at Ligonier edited a book

very critical of hyperpreterism, co -authored by a

number of different people who are not in that camp and

who believe it is a dangerous heresy.

I believe the book is titled When Shall These Things Be?

Is that the title?

That was Keith

Matheson, and he

mentioned me.

When I wrote that book, Tim King picked it up, and

I had no idea.

I just wrote this thing, they took it, published it, and the next thing I know, I'm being invited to speak at these conferences.

And then a year after that, I'm

being asked to pastor a

church at

his conferences,

Max King's and Tim King's version of hyperpreterism.

Well, what is that?

Explain that.

What is the difference?

Well, we've got two hours, so that's fine.

Okay, you can continue, but we have to go to a break.

How

seriously

do the

hyperpreterists

take

these

differences amongst themselves?

Do they.

No longer cooperate on events, and do they call each other

brothers?

I mean, what is the extent of this difference on eschatology with them?

Let's take a break right now, and if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own for Sam Frost,

our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

Chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

That's C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

Please include your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Orrins and if you just tuned us in for the last half hour, we've had as our guest Sam Frost, who is a

former hyper -preterist and he has written a book, Why I Left Full Preterism.

He's also written other books while he was a hyper -preterist, but obviously I have no interest in promoting

those books.

And we are discussing what this eschatology is and

why Sam believed he needed to leave it.

And if you would like to join the conversation with a question, whether you agree with

Sam's departure of hyper -preterism, whether you yourself are a full preterist

or a defender of realized eschatology or covenant eschatology or whatever you

choose to call it, our email address is ChrisOrrinsen at gmail .com.

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

And of course, even if you don't know what we're talking about, feel free to ask a question so you can

have things better clarified in your mind.

ChrisOrrinsen at gmail .com.

So basically, this full preterism that we are calling hyper -preterism,

it is a denial of a future visible return of Christ because

Christ already finally returned once and for all in AD 70.

That's the primary thing.

But along with that, there will be no future bodily resurrection

of the dead.

And what else would be denied as a future event according to the full

preterists or hyper -preterists?

Yeah.

Sam, what else would be denied by the hyper -preterists other than the future return of Christ?

You know, obviously, you

know,

new

heavens

and new

earth.

This is called covenant creationism.

Okay.

Well,

that's

a

good

sign,

actually,

because

there's

a

little

likelihood

that

it

will

thrive.

For much longer into the future if it's so fragmented and that small.

I mean, let me ask you, do you believe that it will have some kind of upswing and become a

real dominant thing for people to have more concern over?

I think its upswing

occurred in 1999.

In the early 2000s, you know, it did.

It had an upswing.

You had Jay Adams.

You had a lot of people talking about it, but normally wouldn't talk about it.

People mentioning it, even N .T. Wright mentioned, there were

Christians that fulfilled what he calls the view bizarre.

He says that's rather bizarre.

We haven't seen anything recently that says that it's on any kind of, I think it enjoyed,

and I think more people have heard the message of hyper -preterism and have

rejected it.

It has been heard.

It's been around for a couple of decades as far as being on the internet in full force in your face.

People have heard it, and I'm running across more people who have heard it, Christian brothers and sisters who have heard of it, even

some of the names that teach it, and think it's just,

I can understand 80 -70.

Sure, I get that sentiment.

Well, it's interesting also that this eschatology comes out

of two unlikely bedfellows.

You have those who are adherents of Campbellism, and then you have Calvinists.

They seem to be very, and it seems to be interesting that they

have a weightier importance placed upon the eschatology

than they do on anything else that they disagree over.

Am I wrong on that?

It just seems that way.

No, you're right.

I mean, I was made a punch.

Now, I recall in a previous conversation, you had mentioned that some of

those who were believers in baptismal regeneration and other things like that,

they've abandoned baptism altogether.

Now, some of them.

I've heard some of them have abandoned it altogether, saying that was purely a Jewish

ritual.

Would

this

group also deny the existence of the church, much like Harold Camping did?

I'm not saying that Harold Camping was a hyper -preterist, but he believed that Christ was

through with the church.

Some, many of them.

Yeah, how can you possibly maintain discipline

if the world, as many of them believe, will go on

forever and ever and ever, and there'll be more and more

millions and billions and trillions of people born?

How on earth is any semblance of

godliness going to be maintained throughout all future history without a church to

discipline individuals?

You're breaking up now, brother.

Ramification.

Yeah, I mean, do they have any answer to that?

I don't.

That's one of the reasons.

I guess their favorite hymn would be the famous Fleetwood Mac song, You Can Go Your Own Way.

Yeah, You Can Go Your Own Way.

Yeah, I can still remember vividly, when I first discovered hyper -preterism, it was actually when John

Noe was invited on the Larry King show to debate Harold

Camping, when he first came out with his book 1994, predicting that the

end of the world would come in 1994, and John Noe kept repeating ad

nauseum infinitum, Ephesians 321, world without end, amen, world without end, amen, world without end, amen,

and he obviously believed that the planet earth will continue forever and

ever and ever, so that's a frightening thought.

I don't know how anybody can get enthusiastic about that at all.

Right.

Uh, we do have a listener from Winter Haven,

Florida, Ricky.

Oh, I know him.

Okay, Ricky asks, how did you feel when the orthodox light came back on,

and you realized how erroneous full -preterism was?

Oh, it was me and my brother.

We weren't talking about this, but he was coming to many of the conclusions I was, in that

sense.

Brother, you're breaking up.

I can't hear you.

I cannot hear you.

Are you able to hear me now?

Yeah, I would suggest trying not to move at all when I can hear you, because you break up quite frequently.

Yeah, you're really breaking up, brother.

I'm going to go to a station break, and hopefully you can get to a place where you can,

well, your signal seems to be good now.

You want to continue your thought?

Oh, yeah.

Okay.

Um,

it

began

to

undermine,

which is

accomplishing,

and it doesn't have any shall accomplished to it.

There's no shall accomplished.

Well, especially since those things are the most important reason why we should even be

discussing this.

Tell us more in depth about that.

Why does it deny those things?

Yes, yes.

Yeah, well, there's

no, you know, the

great Saint

Augustine didn't

have any

talos or aim, and it was Christianity that introduced that history

is linear.

It's heading towards some place, and the goal is glorious.

It's wonderful.

It's a new heaven and a new earth.

So history then has meaning to it.

Every event of history is God's eternal purpose that is

unfolding, that is heading towards its accomplishment.

And in full preterism, you don't have that.

It's already been accomplished.

To which

you

end

that purpose.

Yeah, it seems to rob the very notion

of a final consummated victorious and triumphant

conclusion of all things on earth by Christ.

It seems to rip that right out of our hearts

that we who are Christians are looking forward to with great anticipation.

And of course, you

know, the

hyper

-preteristic

people,

well,

that's which according to you is fulfilled in 80 -70.

So if that's fulfilled in 80 -70, then what you're doing right now is not, you're not a

man of God because that's already been fulfilled.

You can talk about it all you want to and how happy you are, but you're not fulfilling anything.

You're not involved in plan ended in 80 -70, according to you.

And that's where you begin to get the double speak.

Right.

And when I was speaking of the victorious,

triumphant consummation of all things by Christ, I was

speaking about more than just a feeling that we have looking forward to it.

Those actual things are ripped out of history

by the hyper -preterist.

Well, what was the nail in the coffin lid for you regarding hyper

-preterism?

You spoke in general terms about very important, orthodox, biblical things

that you knew were being taken out of your theological makeup

by being a hyper -preterist.

What was the final nail in the coffin lid for you?

Well, this is an

infinite universe in

times of

evil.

What do you

do with this problem?

The answer is I began to get back.

That's what, no, we

don't.

We're like, well, I can't accept that.

That's not a good Lord and Clark to accept anything like that.

So that's not going to, you know, what do you do with this problem if we

have infinite procreation and God knows the number of his all, and here's that word in John

6.

So I started, I went back to John 6 and at the

last day, yeah, yeah, it was

John

6.

Jesus saying, you know, all that the Father has given to me, none

shall

reflect.

Okay,

we're

going

to

pick

up

right

where

you

left

off

there

when

we

return.

From the station break, and I repeat our email address if you'd like to join us on the air, whether you agree with Sam

Frost, whether you vehemently disagree with what he is saying, or whether you just don't know,

our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name, at least your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back with Sam Frost and our conversation on hyper -preterism.

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Chris Arns is a

former hyper -preterist.

In fact, he was one of the movers, shakers, and leaders in that group.

By God's grace, he was enlightened to the fact that this was indeed dangerous heresy that he

had entered into and began to heavily promote.

Thankfully, he is back on solid ground and has

returned to a solid understanding of eschatology and the Bible itself.

Sam, would you call yourself today a partial preterist?

Yeah, I'm a preterist.

So you haven't thrown it all out?

No, I've

read about

it, and he

told

a few

parables

about it,

obviously,

as the prophets

did.

In fact, a lot

of the language

doesn't

say that, and I think

that's where I'm at.

It's like, yeah, I still see that, and

that's significant.

How this all plays out in terms of an overall similar

haze, but the

language

of

eschatology,

I think it's more

broad.

It is

interesting that the

generations of the church, up to our own present generation, you need generations thinking

that they're the last.

He calls that language, and the events going on, the wars going on around them, the

dictatorships, the just bloodshed and

carnage.

It looks like these are

the last

days, and

I see those in more general, broader terms, that it should be still part of the Christian.

How that is, I'm working on all of that, but

I don't think that

can apply to it, but that's

my.

Opinion.

We have Ricky again from Winter Haven, Florida, asking,.

Sam, a full preterist, Mike Sullivan, claims to have successfully refuted your

infinity argument.

Any thoughts?

I wrote

a

book

with

Mike

Sullivan.

If you

could, even

if it

means

repeating

yourself,

lay

out.

The key primary texts that full preterists use to dismiss

any sort of futurism, and then you could get into those texts that you

think that are the death knell to hyper -preterism.

One of them is, you

know, all these

things, and that's it.

There's an infinite number to which you can always add one.

So they play around with this word, all, depending on how they want to use it.

But anyway, that was one of the, you know, when you hear all these things should be fulfilled,

this generation

toys

with that.

Sam, you're breaking up

there for a

minute.

Yeah, I'm sorry about that.

I'm, like I said, moving in a house.

Ultimately,

where Paul says he's

a fan,

when I began to find out that hyper -preterists believe that Jesus...

His resurrected body, you're saying.

He doesn't have the resurrected body.

It's denied by all of them?

It's denied by all the major speakers within the hyper -preterist.

Movement?

Yeah, Don Preston was

at a

conference.

Right, right.

Yeah,

Preston

says

human nature, that right there, he's like, that right

there, just that.

Right.

If we have one mediator between us.

And God.

Exactly.

And it's the man Christ Jesus.

Exactly.

What happens to that mediator?

Right.

And

when

you

dig

into

that,

you

don't

even

call

it sin

anymore.

It's been

done

away

with,

right?

Wow.

It

just, see, ask a

child...

What does the

hyper -preterist, how does the hyper -preterist.

Respond to 2 Peter 3, 9, we who are

believers in the doctrines of sovereign grace, as you know, when we read, the Lord

is not slow about his promise, as some count slowness, but is patient towards you,

not wishing for any to perish, but for all to come to repentance.

Obviously, the Arminian, I believe, mangles that text to believe that

God wants every single person to be saved.

And if that was true, then his desire is going to end in

crushed hopes, because most will not.

But the Calvinist, as you and I are, we believe that the Lord is patient in

his return because he wants all of his elect to come to repentance first.

Now, what is the hyper -preterist view as the patience of God in

this text?

What do they believe is being spoken of here about the Lord being slow,

or not being slow about his promise?

There...

You have to

repeat

that because

you're

breaking

up again.

God

is not

concerned

about what?

There are some...

Is not concerned with us at all?

Yeah.

Wow.

So it's kind of like, almost like a deist kind of a view?

Yeah, pretty much.

In fact, there's a few of them that I've called.

They said, yeah.

Wow.

Talk about...

Talk about pessimism.

Now, are you familiar with open theism?

Yeah. Yes. Yeah, they believe that God.

Is limited in his knowledge of the future.

Interestingly, well, interestingly enough, Tim King...

Okay, that's what I was going to ask you.

Yeah, Tim got into that open theism.

He saw that, and that just fit right nicely in with his hyper -preterism, and he took that.

Yeah, because if you believe in a world without end, and an infinite

existence of the earth, you know, you would wonder if how that fits in with their...

This is like a domino, a game of dominoes hitting against each other,

like one heresy after another seems to manifest.

But when you begin to go into the other categories of

theology, yeah, it's in all

of

this.

Wow.

AD 70 was when the atonement was...

AD 70 becomes the event.

Yeah, that becomes the event.

Past time for Christians today, that's when we will...

And what they

try to tie into that is believers being raised with Christ.

When Christ was raised, we were raised with him.

So when Christ

from the dead, now

they kind

of get into...

Yeah, they

are very much like,.

From what you are describing, hyper -Calvinists, like you and I are Calvinists, but there are

hyper -Calvinists that try to mold everything in the

scripture according to one side of the coin in regard to

the doctrines of grace.

They want to totally remove anything from the scriptures involving man's responsibility, which

historic and biblically orthodox Calvinists uphold.

And just like Arminians also want to twist and remove things involved

with God's sovereignty and control over the salvation of men.

You know, they want to rip that out of there.

These hyper -Preterists seem to just want to, in order for them to have

a peace of mind that they are consistent in some way, they really are jamming things.

They are jamming square pegs and round.

Holes all over the place in the Bible.

Yeah, you know, when you run across them,

even at the conferences and stuff, you know, these are issues I had already had a

theological before I became a hyper -Preterist.

There was already, you know, my years in Christian college and being a student,

a serious student of that, having, you know, a couple of good professors that took me under their wings and I just

basically burned the midnight oil with them.

So, prove the point

fulfilled in AD 70 and this text was fulfilled in AD 70 and that's pretty much, and

they use the time text, you know, the end of this hand and all of that, but they don't, when they start getting into these other

areas, that's where it starts unraveling.

That's where it starts, it's like I said, there's a hook there

that lures you in and that would be the only danger of

hyper -Preterism.

Once you get in it and you start pushing these other issues and you start talking,

you stop in all of that first century stuff and you start talking about

today, that's where hyper -Preterism really begins to fragment and divide among

themselves.

They just want

to talk about AD 70.

I mean, it's more AD 70 than the cross, they just want to talk about AD 70.

Yes, this seems to be the gospel of these people, is their realized eschatology,

that is the gospel, isn't it?

There are...

Oh yeah.

Now, if

you're

taking an eschatology

that roughly wasn't around until 1969 onwards, no one prior to that time can you

document the saying what hyper -Preterism was the

last...

Let me pick up with you where we left off when we return from our final break now.

Sure.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question for our guest, Sam Frost on hyper

-Preterism, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com, and please give us your first

name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the USA.

Don't go away, we'll be right back with Sam Frost in our last half hour of discussion on hyper

-Preterism.

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Hyper -Praetorism in History.

He wrote The Spirit

of Prophecy, Israel and the Spirit of Amen.

So they don't even arrive on the scene until the later part of the 20th century

then.

The full Praetorist.

Yeah, the full Praetorist.

And here you'll hear another phrase.

You were mentioning before an individual who is a rising star in that movement who

says that the full Praetorist view is the gospel.

Is that a commonly held view among the leaders?

Do they actually view us as heretics or even as damned?

Now, obviously, you've already said some of them are universalists.

So there is nobody that's damned.

But those who are not universalists, do they view us as total heretics?

Yeah, and again,

because there

is no way.

Christian from Cumberland County, Pennsylvania wants to know, do you believe this is

serious enough to be labeled as damning heresy?

I think the

doctor,

like Paul Dilver, to be loved.

You're going to have to repeat your last sentence, Sam.

Yeah, I can't call those brothers.

We have Harrison in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania, who perhaps you've already answered his

question, but he wants to know, do you believe this is a

heresy where those who adhere to it without repentance should be excommunicated?

Yeah, interestingly, my

book has

people there that are strongly hyper -Praetorist.

They're going to end up disrupting the church.

They're going to push their views to continue to do this.

They're not going to be silenced.

And that's community.

I don't know that.

I'm not God.

Do keep calm.

We do have another question from Ricky in Winter Haven, Florida, who asked something that I actually have asked

before on this program.

In fact, Jeff Durbin, a friend of mine, also shares your

journey out of hyper -Praetorism.

He was once immersed.

Oh, yes.

He was once immersed in it and considers it one of the darkest periods in his life.

But I asked him the same question that Ricky is now asking.

Would it be fair and accurate to say that hyper -Praetorism is just all sorts

of repackaged Gnosticism?

Probably had a lot of it right, and that the power of the authority church, which more and more

became centralized in Rome, ousted them because that would take

authority away from the church, which did not succeed.

They

had

things in common, one of

them

being the

view of...

We were

asked

before

how far back in history you can trace hyper -Praetorism.

How about Hymenaeus and Philetus?

I mean, they were denying the resurrection.

How is their denial of the resurrection different?

Other than the obvious timing of it, they were before the destruction of the temple,

saying that the resurrection had already occurred.

But do we even really know what their version of this...

I don't, you know, we don't.

I mean, most scholars of that passage, and as a hyper -Praetorist, we were...

They use it for their benefit, that text?

Oh, yeah.

Yeah, they use it.

You know, how could anyone in that time say that?

How would anyone, you know, they

had

to have been

Praetorists.

And what...

The Apostle Paul, when he is giving comfort to the church in

Thessalonica...

I'm really tongue -tied today.

About the, you know, the future resurrection of the dead, and those being caught up in the air, and all that.

How is that some kind of huge comfort to the

Thessalonicans, if this is just something that was spiritual, that happened in AD 70?

I'm lost at that.

Yeah, right.

It's written for us, but very little of it has to do with us, or none of it.

And you're really taking historic, you know, what I call historical exegesis, which, again, is important.

You

have

seen Paul

directly

do.

Also, if you deny the

resurrection of the dead, you must

also logically deny the resurrection of Jesus, because they go hand -in -hand.

Right.

They cannot be separated.

So has anybody on record in that movement, has anybody of note in that movement done that?

Denied the bodily, physical resurrection of Christ?

But you're just saying that if they're being logically consistent, that would be the case?

I think that's what Paul's saying.

I think among Corinthians, you had some of them that were saying that they affirmed that Jesus was raised from the dead,

but that's not going to translate into our physical.

Right.

And

Paul's

saying Eucharist three

days, he was

raised.

So in that respect, they are modern

-day Sadducees, aren't they, in that respect?

To that extent, yeah.

If he created Adam out of the dust of the ground, why is it some kind of difficult task for

him to bring the dead out of the sea and the earth, as the book of Revelation tells us?

And wherever men have died, if they've been burned alive, or...

I mean, even when we die and are buried in coffins, our bodies

deteriorate anyway, eventually.

So...

I think, you know, Paul's power

of the dead, right?

You know, someone asked, how are the dead, right?

Paul's response to that is an immediacy.

You have to repeat Paul's response, because your phone broke up.

Yeah.

Single word,

and it's talking

you down, how he

talks

about the dead.

I know.

Amen.

Well, thank you so much, Sam, for being our guest today on Iron Sharpens Iron.

Let me know when the book is available.

And I know that our listeners will eventually be able to get the book through Covenant Valley Bible Book

Service, which is one of our sponsors.

And their website is cvbbs .com.

C -V for Covenant...

Cumberland Valley.

B -B -S for Bible Book Service dot com.

C -V -B -B -S dot com.

And I want to thank also Providence Baptist Church in Norfolk, Massachusetts, for being a

sponsor of our program today.

Their website is Providence Baptist Church M -A for Massachusetts dot O -R

-G.

Providence Baptist Church M -A dot O -R -G.

Any final words that you'd like to share with our listeners, Sam, that you want most etched in their hearts and minds before they leave the program?

I, with this idea,

or maybe you've read some books or saw somebody on Facebook or on the

internet, I just, I issue you a word of caution.

And, you know, asking yourself, did the Holy Spirit get the message that the church has

learned in the

last 40 years?

It does, doesn't it?

And I want to repeat the Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service address

because the book by Keith Matheson, edited by Keith Matheson,

When Shall These Things Be, is a book that refutes hyper -preterism,

written by a number of authors, and Keith Matheson being the main editor.

That's C -V -B -B -S dot com.

C -V, Cumberland Valley, B -B -S, Bible Book Service dot com.

You can order that through there.

And there's a book, I'm getting an email from Safety Harbor, Florida.

Theo Benitez wants to know, what's the best book other than that to get?

Well, I'm assuming your book when it's in print.

Yeah, to your listeners, too.

Great.

And I want everybody listening to always remember that Jesus Christ is a far greater savior than you are a sinner.

God bless, and we look forward to you joining us again tomorrow on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.