November 10, 2015 Show with Sam Frost on “Hyper-Preterism: One Man’s Journey In & Out!

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What Hyper-Preterism Claims About Prophecy and Eschatology

This issue is hyperpreterism. It's also known as full preterism. Obviously those who adhere to it simply call it preterism. They also call it realized eschatology, covenant eschatology, and I'm sure there are a number of other names for it.

We are calling it hyperpreterism because we want to make sure you are aware we are identifying it as an aberrant teaching, even a heresy, a very dangerous heresy at that, and there is no one better to speak on that issue than someone who he himself was involved very heavily in this movement.

In fact, he was one of the leaders in this movement and had a book published while still in the movement by Don Preston, who is readily recognized worldwide as probably the preeminent full preterist, and since his exodus out of hyperpreterism, our guest Sam Frost has written a book, Why I Left Full Preterism, and it's currently out of print, but we're waiting with bated breath for it to be back out hot off the press again, God willing, in the near future, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time to Iron Sharpens Iron,.

Sam Frost. Chris, thank you for having me. It's a pleasure. Well, I think it would be.

A good idea for our listeners to understand the basic tenets of preterism and then you can also define what would be considered hyperpreterism and then obviously partial preterism, which is something that many orthodox Bible-believing Christians adhere to.

Well, preterism as a term has been around for, figured into a new view for many centuries and even in the reformed circle. So basically you're saying that the hyperpreterists who call themselves.

Simply preterists or realized eschatology advocates or covenant eschatology advocates, they say that there is nothing left in the scriptures from beginning to end, from Genesis to Revelation, there is nothing that has been prophesied in that massive book we call the Bible that is not already fulfilled and that has not already occurred.

By A .D. 70 at the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem. Yeah, correct. We were trying that all possible today, presently, nothing to be fulfilled and, you know, that just, you know, I was in it for years and as you stated before, I mean, I was one of the main leaders in it with Don Preston, Ed Stephens, John Noe, I mean, you know, I go way back into 2002, 2003.

I pastored a church for four years and had several conferences with Don Preston hosted there and that was evangelical hearings, then the whole thing goes up.

When you say that the full preterists or hyperpreterists believe that there is nothing left to be fulfilled, would that include the scriptures that commonly orthodox believers.

View as depicting heaven and hell? Well, go ahead. Well, do the main figures like Don Preston believe there is a heaven awaiting? They do. Yeah, he does. He sees it and basically we don't have anything really going for us and that's it.

The nation Israel is fulfilled by A .D. 70 and.

That's that. I'm going to give our email address if anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own regarding this topic. My email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com c-h-r-i-s-a-r-n-z-e-n at gmail .com and please give us your first name, your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside the USA and we eagerly urge you to email us with a question whether you agree with Sam, whether you are radically opposed to what Sam is saying or whether you just don't know.

A lot of people may be totally unaware of anything called preterism and so you may ask questions as well. Again, it's chrisarnsen at gmail .com c-h-r-i-s-a-r-n-z-e-n at gmail .com. So, tell us something about your upbringing, how you became a Christian and eventually how you discovered and entered into hyper-preterism.

Early Influences and the Move Into Full Preterism

Yeah, these men that you just listed are all within the camp of post-millennial partial.

Preterists which is considered by most Christians to be orthodox. Obviously, there are dispensationalists and even amillennialists who would not consider it orthodox but most Christians who understand that eschatology is not something that we should necessarily start a war over or divide over as long as it contains the main tenets of the faith which some of those things are denied by the hyper-preterists.

Some of the very important tenets which we could get into in a moment but these are post-millennial partial preterists who first started to get you thinking about the early date of the writing of the bible and other things, right?

Yeah, definitely. It was in a footnote in his commentary, Days of Vengeance, ex-king in Warren, Ohio. He found his book and read it. I read it again. That's the 700 page cross in the parisian and I read it again and I thought, there's something going on here.

There in the school where I myself, I'm a full preterist. I knew what that meant in the faith, you know, as a child and growing up and having a groundwork already laid. I was wanting to make full preterism something that would be the next theology, that this is a break, this is going to help the Christian orthodox puzzle together.

This is what the church needs to be saying and here and there, going back to Irenaeus and Justin Marger, they say it in both bits and pieces but now we're going to say it fully. But we're not taking anything away from the church, the power of the church, the power of Jesus Christ.

No, when you are saying this in your mind, you're still... In my mind, yeah.

Is this when you are still at this point a partial preterist?

Well, this is when I didn't see all of the ramifications of the faith. So that... It's exciting.

The thing that's interesting is you say this is exciting and is it really just exciting because you believe you have discovered secret knowledge of some kind that nobody else has discovered? Because there's nothing really exciting innately about hyper-preterism.

It's a very depressing eschatology and that's why it's amazing that some people go from... They leap from a very optimistic eschatology like post-millennialism, which is the most optimistic eschatology, then you leap immediately into the most pessimistic eschatology there could possibly be.

Yeah. The more years I got into it, the more I saw that, man, this is... I'm having to leave. I'm starting to go into all kinds of stuff. That's where...

Alienation, Conferences, and Internal Divisions

Before we even go into your leaving the hyper-preterism, while you just joined it and are getting immersed into it, in fact, becoming a rising star in the group, what happened with those who were your Christian brothers and sisters and friends who were not full preterists when this occurred?

Did you get alienated or shunned or what was happening? Yeah, a few of them did in.

This senior year. Just keep in mind, I'm... Were you affiliated with the Orthodox Baptist Church in Pensacola at all? Oh, I know who you're talking about, Mark.

They, at least at one time... Many times. Yeah, they were at one time hyper-preterists, correct?

I don't know. Well, I'm speaking of actually a church.

Years ago when I first started to discover hyper-preterism. There was a church called the Orthodox Baptist Church in Pensacola and they were hyper-preterists. Obviously, they didn't call themselves hyper-preterists, but they were full preterists.

Oh, no. No, I'm not of them. Okay.

Well, and my apologies to any other church called the Orthodox Baptist Church that is not full preterist in Pensacola, but I distinctly remember there was one there, and I don't know if it still is full preterist or not.

So, who were the people that really got you moving up the ladder there? Like, for instance, how did Don Preston discover who you are and why would he be so excited about you that he published your work?

Well, again, reading Max King, and then I contacted Max out, and then they had their Max King and Tim King were, and we met, talked, and there I met Ed Stevens, John Bowie, Randall Otto, I think was there.

There was a few others that had a full preterist conference after R .C. Spoole's conference. So, I went to that and started talking with them, and their work at Hebrew at Reformed Theological Seminary in Orlando under Bruce Waltke, and he was doing them.

And so, putting this all together, I'm like, wow, Max King's really making some getting into these guys. But there was something about Soraya's book about sola scriptura and the way that he handled the argument of sola scriptura that I still disagree with, and that's why I wrote a manuscript called Misplaced.

Yeah, we're starting to break up a little bit with your cell phone, hopefully. Hopefully, we could remain in one place where it remains a strong signal.

Is this better now?

Yes, it is. Well, first of all, obviously, we have to distinguish between R .C. Spoole and the hyperpreterist. When you say he mentioned Max King, was he doing that?

Not endorsing him.

Right, right. Because I know R .C. Spoole had become a partial preterist, but he was never one to endorse the full preterism. In fact, someone on staff there at Ligonier edited a book very critical of hyperpreterism, co-authored by a number of different people who are not in that camp and who believe it is a dangerous heresy.

I believe the book is titled When Shall These Things Be? Is that the title?

That was Keith Matheson, and he mentioned me. When I wrote that book, Tim King picked it up, and I had no idea. I just wrote this thing, they took it, published it, and the next thing I know, I'm being invited to speak at these conferences.

And then a year after that, I'm being asked to pastor a church at his conferences, Max King's and Tim King's version of hyperpreterism.

Well, what is that? Explain that. What is the difference? Well, we've got two hours, so that's fine. Okay, you can continue, but we have to go to a break.

How seriously do the hyperpreterists take these differences amongst themselves? Do they.

No longer cooperate on events, and do they call each other brothers? I mean, what is the extent of this difference on eschatology with them? Let's take a break right now, and if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own for Sam Frost, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

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The Return of Christ, Resurrection, and the Future Hope

Welcome back. This is Chris Orrins and if you just tuned us in for the last half hour, we've had as our guest Sam Frost, who is a former hyper-preterist and he has written a book, Why I Left Full Preterism.

He's also written other books while he was a hyper-preterist, but obviously I have no interest in promoting those books. And we are discussing what this eschatology is and why Sam believed he needed to leave it.

And if you would like to join the conversation with a question, whether you agree with Sam's departure of hyper-preterism, whether you yourself are a full preterist or a defender of realized eschatology or covenant eschatology or whatever you choose to call it, our email address is ChrisOrrinsen at gmail .com.

C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com. And of course, even if you don't know what we're talking about, feel free to ask a question so you can have things better clarified in your mind. ChrisOrrinsen at gmail .com.

So basically, this full preterism that we are calling hyper-preterism, it is a denial of a future visible return of Christ because Christ already finally returned once and for all in AD 70. That's the primary thing.

But along with that, there will be no future bodily resurrection of the dead. And what else would be denied as a future event according to the full preterists or hyper-preterists? Yeah. Sam, what else would be denied by the hyper-preterists other than the future return of Christ?

You know, obviously, you know, new heavens and new earth. This is called covenant creationism. Okay. Well, that's a good sign, actually, because there's a little likelihood that it will thrive.

For much longer into the future if it's so fragmented and that small. I mean, let me ask you, do you believe that it will have some kind of upswing and become a real dominant thing for people to have more concern over?

I think its upswing occurred in 1999. In the early 2000s, you know, it did. It had an upswing. You had Jay Adams. You had a lot of people talking about it, but normally wouldn't talk about it. People mentioning it, even N .T. Wright mentioned, there were Christians that fulfilled what he calls the view bizarre.

He says that's rather bizarre. We haven't seen anything recently that says that it's on any kind of, I think it enjoyed, and I think more people have heard the message of hyper-preterism and have rejected it.

It has been heard. It's been around for a couple of decades as far as being on the internet in full force in your face. People have heard it, and I'm running across more people who have heard it, Christian brothers and sisters who have heard of it, even some of the names that teach it, and think it's just, I can understand 80 -70.

Sure, I get that sentiment.

Well, it's interesting also that this eschatology comes out of two unlikely bedfellows. You have those who are adherents of Campbellism, and then you have Calvinists. They seem to be very, and it seems to be interesting that they have a weightier importance placed upon the eschatology than they do on anything else that they disagree over.

Am I wrong on that? It just seems that way.

No, you're right. I mean, I was made a punch.

Now, I recall in a previous conversation, you had mentioned that some of those who were believers in baptismal regeneration and other things like that, they've abandoned baptism altogether. Now, some of them.

I've heard some of them have abandoned it altogether, saying that was purely a Jewish ritual. Would this group also deny the existence of the church, much like Harold Camping did?

I'm not saying that Harold Camping was a hyper-preterist, but he believed that Christ was through with the church.

Some, many of them.

Yeah, how can you possibly maintain discipline if the world, as many of them believe, will go on forever and ever and ever, and there'll be more and more millions and billions and trillions of people born?

How on earth is any semblance of godliness going to be maintained throughout all future history without a church to discipline individuals? You're breaking up now, brother.

Ramification.

Yeah, I mean, do they have any answer to that?

I don't. That's one of the reasons.

I guess their favorite hymn would be the famous Fleetwood Mac song, You Can Go Your Own Way.

Yeah, You Can Go Your Own Way.

Yeah, I can still remember vividly, when I first discovered hyper-preterism, it was actually when John Noe was invited on the Larry King show to debate Harold Camping, when he first came out with his book 1994, predicting that the end of the world would come in 1994, and John Noe kept repeating ad nauseum infinitum, Ephesians 321, world without end, amen, world without end, amen, world without end, amen, and he obviously believed that the planet earth will continue forever and ever and ever, so that's a frightening thought.

I don't know how anybody can get enthusiastic about that at all.

Right.

Uh, we do have a listener from Winter Haven, Florida, Ricky.

Oh, I know him.

Okay, Ricky asks, how did you feel when the orthodox light came back on, and you realized how erroneous full-preterism was?

Oh, it was me and my brother. We weren't talking about this, but he was coming to many of the conclusions I was, in that sense.

Brother, you're breaking up. I can't hear you. I cannot hear you.

Are you able to hear me now?

Yeah, I would suggest trying not to move at all when I can hear you, because you break up quite frequently. Yeah, you're really breaking up, brother. I'm going to go to a station break, and hopefully you can get to a place where you can, well, your signal seems to be good now.

You want to continue your thought?

Oh, yeah.

Okay.

Um, it began to undermine, which is accomplishing, and it doesn't have any shall accomplished to it. There's no shall accomplished.

Well, especially since those things are the most important reason why we should even be discussing this. Tell us more in depth about that. Why does it deny those things? Yes, yes.

Yeah, well, there's no, you know, the great Saint Augustine didn't have any talos or aim, and it was Christianity that introduced that history is linear. It's heading towards some place, and the goal is glorious.

It's wonderful. It's a new heaven and a new earth. So history then has meaning to it. Every event of history is God's eternal purpose that is unfolding, that is heading towards its accomplishment. And in full preterism, you don't have that.

It's already been accomplished. To which you end that purpose.

Yeah, it seems to rob the very notion of a final consummated victorious and triumphant conclusion of all things on earth by Christ. It seems to rip that right out of our hearts that we who are Christians are looking forward to with great anticipation.

And of course, you know, the hyper-preteristic people, well, that's which according to you is fulfilled in 80 -70. So if that's fulfilled in 80 -70, then what you're doing right now is not, you're not a man of God because that's already been fulfilled.

You can talk about it all you want to and how happy you are, but you're not fulfilling anything. You're not involved in plan ended in 80 -70, according to you. And that's where you begin to get the double speak.

Right. And when I was speaking of the victorious, triumphant consummation of all things by Christ, I was speaking about more than just a feeling that we have looking forward to it. Those actual things are ripped out of history by the hyper-preterist.

Well, what was the nail in the coffin lid for you regarding hyper-preterism? You spoke in general terms about very important, orthodox, biblical things that you knew were being taken out of your theological makeup by being a hyper-preterist.

What was the final nail in the coffin lid for you?

Well, this is an infinite universe in times of evil. What do you do with this problem? The answer is I began to get back. That's what, no, we don't. We're like, well, I can't accept that. That's not a good Lord and Clark to accept anything like that.

So that's not going to, you know, what do you do with this problem if we have infinite procreation and God knows the number of his all, and here's that word in John 6. So I started, I went back to John 6 and at the last day, yeah, yeah, it was John 6.

Jesus saying, you know, all that the Father has given to me, none shall reflect. Okay, we're going to pick up right where you left off there when we return.

From the station break, and I repeat our email address if you'd like to join us on the air, whether you agree with Sam Frost, whether you vehemently disagree with what he is saying, or whether you just don't know, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, at least your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside the USA. Don't go away. We'll be right back with Sam Frost and our conversation on hyper-preterism.

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Hyper-Preterism in History and Its Modern Origins

Chris Arns is a former hyper-preterist. In fact, he was one of the movers, shakers, and leaders in that group. By God's grace, he was enlightened to the fact that this was indeed dangerous heresy that he had entered into and began to heavily promote.

Thankfully, he is back on solid ground and has returned to a solid understanding of eschatology and the Bible itself. Sam, would you call yourself today a partial preterist?

Yeah, I'm a preterist.

So you haven't thrown it all out?

No, I've read about it, and he told a few parables about it, obviously, as the prophets did. In fact, a lot of the language doesn't say that, and I think that's where I'm at. It's like, yeah, I still see that, and that's significant.

How this all plays out in terms of an overall similar haze, but the language of eschatology, I think it's more broad. It is interesting that the generations of the church, up to our own present generation, you need generations thinking that they're the last.

He calls that language, and the events going on, the wars going on around them, the dictatorships, the just bloodshed and carnage. It looks like these are the last days, and I see those in more general, broader terms, that it should be still part of the Christian.

How that is, I'm working on all of that, but I don't think that can apply to it, but that's my.

Opinion. We have Ricky again from Winter Haven, Florida, asking,. Sam, a full preterist, Mike Sullivan, claims to have successfully refuted your infinity argument. Any thoughts?

I wrote a book with Mike Sullivan. If you could, even if it means repeating yourself, lay out.

The key primary texts that full preterists use to dismiss any sort of futurism, and then you could get into those texts that you think that are the death knell to hyper-preterism.

One of them is, you know, all these things, and that's it. There's an infinite number to which you can always add one. So they play around with this word, all, depending on how they want to use it. But anyway, that was one of the, you know, when you hear all these things should be fulfilled, this generation toys with that.

Sam, you're breaking up there for a minute. Yeah, I'm sorry about that. I'm, like I said, moving in a house. Ultimately, where Paul says he's a fan, when I began to find out that hyper-preterists believe that Jesus...

His resurrected body, you're saying. He doesn't have the resurrected body. It's denied by all of them? It's denied by all the major speakers within the hyper-preterist.

Movement? Yeah, Don Preston was at a conference. Right, right. Yeah, Preston says human nature, that right there, he's like, that right there, just that. Right. If we have one mediator between us.

And God. Exactly. And it's the man Christ Jesus. Exactly. What happens to that mediator?

Right. And when you dig into that, you don't even call it sin anymore. It's been done away with, right? Wow. It just, see, ask a child... What does the hyper-preterist, how does the hyper-preterist.

Respond to 2 Peter 3, 9, we who are believers in the doctrines of sovereign grace, as you know, when we read, the Lord is not slow about his promise, as some count slowness, but is patient towards you, not wishing for any to perish, but for all to come to repentance.

Obviously, the Arminian, I believe, mangles that text to believe that God wants every single person to be saved. And if that was true, then his desire is going to end in crushed hopes, because most will not.

But the Calvinist, as you and I are, we believe that the Lord is patient in his return because he wants all of his elect to come to repentance first. Now, what is the hyper-preterist view as the patience of God in this text?

What do they believe is being spoken of here about the Lord being slow, or not being slow about his promise?

There... You have to repeat that because you're breaking up again. God is not concerned about what? There are some... Is not concerned with us at all? Yeah. Wow. So it's kind of like, almost like a deist kind of a view?

Yeah, pretty much. In fact, there's a few of them that I've called. They said, yeah. Wow. Talk about... Talk about pessimism.

Now, are you familiar with open theism? Yeah. Yes. Yeah, they believe that God.

Is limited in his knowledge of the future. Interestingly, well, interestingly enough, Tim King... Okay, that's what I was going to ask you. Yeah, Tim got into that open theism. He saw that, and that just fit right nicely in with his hyper-preterism, and he took that.

Yeah, because if you believe in a world without end, and an infinite existence of the earth, you know, you would wonder if how that fits in with their... This is like a domino, a game of dominoes hitting against each other, like one heresy after another seems to manifest.

But when you begin to go into the other categories of theology, yeah, it's in all of this. Wow. AD 70 was when the atonement was... AD 70 becomes the event. Yeah, that becomes the event. Past time for Christians today, that's when we will...

And what they try to tie into that is believers being raised with Christ. When Christ was raised, we were raised with him. So when Christ from the dead, now they kind of get into... Yeah, they are very much like,.

From what you are describing, hyper-Calvinists, like you and I are Calvinists, but there are hyper-Calvinists that try to mold everything in the scripture according to one side of the coin in regard to the doctrines of grace.

They want to totally remove anything from the scriptures involving man's responsibility, which historic and biblically orthodox Calvinists uphold. And just like Arminians also want to twist and remove things involved with God's sovereignty and control over the salvation of men.

You know, they want to rip that out of there. These hyper-Preterists seem to just want to, in order for them to have a peace of mind that they are consistent in some way, they really are jamming things.

They are jamming square pegs and round.

Holes all over the place in the Bible. Yeah, you know, when you run across them, even at the conferences and stuff, you know, these are issues I had already had a theological before I became a hyper-Preterist.

There was already, you know, my years in Christian college and being a student, a serious student of that, having, you know, a couple of good professors that took me under their wings and I just basically burned the midnight oil with them.

So, prove the point fulfilled in AD 70 and this text was fulfilled in AD 70 and that's pretty much, and they use the time text, you know, the end of this hand and all of that, but they don't, when they start getting into these other areas, that's where it starts unraveling.