Ignatius and the Real Presence

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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desert metropolis of phoenix arizona is the dividing line the apostle peter commanded christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence our host is doctor james white director of alpha and omega ministries and an elder at the phoenix reformed baptist church this is a live program and we invite your participation if you'd like to talk with doctor white call now at 602 -973 -4602 or toll free across the united states it's 1 -877 -753 -3341 and now with today's topic here is james white well i was rolling the cart with the last forty copies of debating calvinism that uh...

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i had just finished signing uh... back to the room where we fill our orders and uh...

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that was the cnn no one around here would watch cnn fox news was on and as i rolled around the corner i heard a discussion where uh...

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uh... there is this this controversy in the georgia state legislature and there were legislators who were complaining that the ministers who came in to offer prayers were addressing social issues in their prayers and this wonderful lovely liberal leftist socialist uh...

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person comes on the screen and she says i think that these men should not address issues uh...

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social issues or moral issues since they're religious men they should just talk about how god loves us all and at that point i began throwing copies of debating calvinism at the television set no i didn't do that but i did just shake my head at the abject uh...

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irrationality of uh... of the world around us welcome to the dividing line yeah i know we all experience that every day we better get used to it because it is uh...

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uh... happening all around us at uh... at all times yes the book uh...

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is uh... is on its way to you at least uh... yesterday i think we got about fifty four of them out the door and uh...

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that was the first run and uh... i got the rest of them signed today so the uh... ups guy had better be on the ball today uh...

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he's gonna have some some packages to pick up uh... multiple hundreds of them i think and uh...

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so we got them all done and yeah some of the last signatures you're not uh... you know hey i gave it my best shot my signature isn't all that good to begin with and so after a couple hundred it's it's it's pretty pretty ugly but anyway that's all taken care of and uh...

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obviously i i don't think uh... there'd be worthwhile to discuss the debating calvinism yet because hardly anybody's read it so give that a couple weeks to sink in and people start responding to it and then we'll have some discussion that concerning uh...

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that particular book but today if you uh... if you saw the blog and i hope you saw the blog i hope you check the blog didn't do much blogging yesterday because uh...

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i was busy with numerous things uh... and uh... i announced there that we were going to have a somewhat of a class today on uh...

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uh... the dividing line i am currently teaching a uh...

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uh... class called development of patristic theology through augustine and uh... basically what we get to do in that class is sit around and read early church fathers and stop and discuss things and and uh...

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i know that i'm not supposed to do this because i'm not connected with the space -time world at all and nothing i believe is relevant to how i live my life i mean i just go out and and party all time and get drunk and do all sorts things like that because my faith has nothing to do with how i live but uh...

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actually what's really strange is even even in development of patristic theology and talking about church history we actually make application to ministry and to life in the space -time world we actually do that it's i know there's some that just are going no way but uh...

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yeah we actually do and so we'll sit around and and we'll make application of what uh... ignatius was talking about we're currently going to ignatius uh...

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bishop of antioch and his writings from around the years one oh seven one oh eight in that particular period of time and um...

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uh... we will be taking calls till much later in the program so uh... no no reason to even have folks wasting the uh...

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phone lines right now uh... might open the phones after the break at the half hour if we get done to if we get that far if not no problem i'll let everybody know when you can call today hang up the phones give up on it forget it uh...

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anyway um... uh... we we talk about uh... you know how church history is applicable to today and and all the rest of that kind of stuff so uh...

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anyhow uh... that's what we're doing and uh... this past monday night we had a shortened class because there is a chapel of seminary chapel uh...

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between the systematic theology class i was teaching and then i'm teaching in the uh... patristic theology class and uh...

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so we didn't have quite as much time so we uh... we got into uh...

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uh... ignatius and the specific passage that we got into uh... was his epistle to the smyrnians and especially the misuse of this passage uh...

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in regards to roman catholic apologetics now we haven't discussed uh... catholic apologists and apologetics for a while uh...

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and uh... we most definitely need to continue to do that so don't forget we have a debate coming up in uh...

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uh... may may twentieth on long island against uh... catholic apologist gary machuta on the subject of uh...

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the apocrypha and uh... so those of you out toward long island you might want to be uh...

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keeping that in mind but um... this passage there's a particular passage in uh...

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in ignatius' epistles that is constantly cited over and over again in fact i took some time today uh...

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to go online and do a little looking around and uh... i i went to both catholic dot com which is uh...

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the catholic answers website and to envoy magazine dot com the uh...

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website for of course envoy magazine and that is of course the ministry the apostolate of patrick madrid and i have seen for years and years and years and years uh...

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the father's knows no best uh... series in in this rock magazine things like that and you'll see these almost always not always but almost always context less citations of early church fathers and what you do it's it's similar to way the jurgens does it in his set is you'll you'll set up a topic uh...

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you'll set up a a certain uh... concept and then you start just quoting these fathers as if you are in essence the reader has to trust that's the author is being fair with the context because you're not given enough context around the quote to really know whether the the writer this ancient writer is actually addressing what you're talking about it whether he isn't uh...

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and i've seen the section from ignatius quoted over and over and over again in that a context less way that just you know in the middle of of argument just throw this particular quotation out let's not worry about what i said just an example if you go on to uh...

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the envoy magazine dot com website you go to back issues uh... you go to uh...

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one point to nuts and bolts dot html so it's on the magazine dot com slash back issues slash one dot two slash nuts and bolts one word dot html uh...

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this is a tim staples article you have a look at and um...

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that if you want something if you want something about context uh... let me let me tell you something uh...

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that's uh... that's going to be that's going to be where you where you find it and uh... now watch this a bit stars dot yep i didn't think so uh...

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well uh... i i knew the uh... i knew the uh... i knew the uh...

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could be computer wouldn't be on but anyway uh... we just had some applause and challenges uh... under that the title of my flesh is real food here's a brief step -by -step way to explain the real presence of christ in the eucharist now we stop immediately and say one of the first things you have to do in dealing with roman catholics and roman catholic apologists is to differentiate something that they do not differentiate that they just automatically assume is the same thing and that is real presence from transubstantiation because a an early church father an early church father can believe that christ is truly present in the supper without believing in transubstantiation they managed to do it for a thousand years uh...

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so it's not surprising that uh... that we need to clearly differentiate that they won't do so they'll just simply use those terms interchangeably they'll talk about all the early church fathers believe in the real presence of christ and everybody i mean they will uh...

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tim staples especially will will do that he will just simply uh...

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make these broad broad claims that could never be substantiated and uh... i got to do is is listen to the cross -examination that i did it in the last time we debated you'll see that that's the case uh...

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you could watch it to if if the people who sponsored uh... that debate were honest enough to uh... to live up to their own commitments but anyway uh...

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uh... he'll make these broad things and so you've got to be just on this this article here is a scenario you're at the annual family reunion barbecue in the midst of fun you overhear your cousin mark who left the church in college and now tends a fundamentalist baptist church fundamentalist is always capitalized arguing heatedly about religion with several of your catholic relatives he's got his bible out and is vigorously explaining why the catholic doctrine the eucharist is unbiblical uh...

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i'd like to put in my own description here of course now the catholics is talking to have a bible with them only he does i continue on you don't really believe that you eat jesus when you receive communion do you he rolls his eyes shaking his head the very thought it's obvious inscription jesus speaking symbolically we talk about eating his flesh and drink his blood he didn't mean that literally now of course we being who we are would be consistent in saying to this particular fellow uh...

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well you know i agree with you there but you know the reason that's true is because you will roll the context back here in this cover the jesus talking about his centrality in the work of salvation and in fact the sovereignty of god salvation do you believe in the sovereignty of god and salvation we talk about john six from that perspective but that's another subject your relatives are no match for mark's energy and confidence and besides they don't have bibles with him haha see so he's pretty much in charge of the conversation i love this sitting here reading this on the screen and up comes norton antivirus and another idiot has sent me that stupid virus thank you norton for catching it i should be thankful for that oh i love this i bring up the mail program and it's someone spamming my own address at ailment dot org isn't that nice i just love these folks and if you're listening it didn't work at all and there's a there's a reminder that i'm to be on paul edwards program for those of you in the detroit area uh...

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who will be listening to what is that up there to be none of what what the detroit station i can't remember anyways i'm gonna be on the paul edwards program an hour after this one so three o 'clock eastern time in order to be discussing roman catholic apologists so uh...

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uh... anyway uh... always says give me your first availability any time though just sketchbook accordingly uh...

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okay well uh... i'll have to try during the break to let him know that uh... that i can come on right afterwards we can we can go for two hours that matters to our own catholic apologists also uh...

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anyhow so i go back to the tables i'm far too easily distracted today i finished studying those books and so that uh...

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and so he goes into how you would respond to mark uh... in regards to uh...

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uh... the subject of uh... the eucharist and when you go down to step two let me read what step two says uh...

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someone's calling me step two next point of the fact next point out the fact that the real presence of christ in the holy eucharist uh...

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rich if you can answer that please uh... next point out the fact that the real presence of christ in the holy eucharist was a doctrine believed and taught unanimously by the church since the time of christ the catholic literal sense was always and only always and only the sense in which the early christians understood christ's words in john six the figurative or metaphorical sense was never held by the church fathers or other early orthodox christians i suppose at that point if mark has um...

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read any of william webster or anybody like that he might whip out augustine and talk about augustine uh...

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you know his quotation wherein he talks about uh... you know if you believe you've prepared your mouth already and it's faith in at but hate you know this attempt staples were not confused by facts this can be proven but not just by appealing to the writings of fathers but also by the fact that ancient christian traditions of the cops orthodox churches also hold and teach the doctrine of the real presence just the catholic church says all you mean they believe in transubstantiation exact same way anyways here's where we're going saint ignatius of antioch a disciple of saint john the apostle and successor of saint peter as bishop of antioch it wrote and quote they the heretics abstain from the eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the eucharist is the flesh of our savior jesus christ flesh which suffered for our sins which the father in his goodness raised up again and quote epistle to the samaritans six eighty one oh seven you can just imagine in that context there at the family reunion barbecue brother mark dropping his bible into the roast chicken uh...

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at having been refuted so soundly uh... especially by someone who can quote from the pit of from ignatius's epistle to the samaritans from eighty one oh seven but you will know that there is no context offered for that particular statement and let me read again today the heretics abstain from the eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess the eucharist the flesh of our savior jesus christ flesh which suffered for our sins in which the father in his goodness raised up again and so what you see and it's almost like a uh...

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it's almost like a template what world was that uh... it's almost like a template uh...

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that is passed around to converts uh... to to say i read the early church fathers and they were catholics i mean i cannot tell you how many times i've heard that and i also cannot tell you how many times when you actually pressed a person who said something like that uh...

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that in reality they had never read anything more than things like this they had never read uh...

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ignatius thank you in any way shape or form they had not looked they had no way of evaluating the context of this anything of the kind so with that as a background now knowing why we might want to take the time to uh...

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to look at this uh... you may have followed the links off of my blog page and you may be looking at uh...

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the ccdl uh... reference to the epistle ignatius to the samaritans uh...

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we're only looking at the uh... the greek version uh... that's the quote -unquote shorter version uh...

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not the longer version and uh... that may throw some some curves your direction was a shorter and longer uh...

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versions i'm gonna be reading from uh... michael holmes uh... edition of this uh...

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because that's the the version we're using in class uh... it has both the uh...

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the greek and the english but it's it's uh... a little smoother translation a little bit uh... more useful on those lines and uh...

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this available fairly cheaply from amazon dot com if you're looking for a a nice uh... uh...

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a nice edition of it so let's just go ahead and start and let's uh... as we get started i'm gonna have to stop a couple times and provide some background because the one thing that we all ostensibly want to do anyway is to handle historical documents in the proper fashion what i mean by that let's put this one let's say you have uh...

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the opportunity of writing something putting it in print on an important subject to you uh...

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let's use example the new uh... debating calvinism book and let's say two thousand years from now someone digs up my book uh...

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as if somehow it was going to survive that long and uh... well out here in arizona it might bury one in the backyard it's so dry it would be fine two thousand years and uh...

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they dig it up and as they read that i want them to listen to what i'm saying in the context in which i said it i don't want someone to take me out of my context out of what gave meaning to my words what gave passion to my discussion i don't want them to take me and stick me in their context because if you do that not only you you're being grossly unfair to me but you're also good not gonna have the foggiest idea what the world is talking about i mean seriously uh...

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the the conflicts of a of a situation two thousand years from now are probably going to be different in many ways than the conflicts that i am uh...

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addressing and so if you try to read me as if i was addressing the issues that you're addressing two thousand years later you are going to be grossly misrepresenting me and it would be wrong for you to say ah see here's an ancient writer from two thousand and four and he is he is uh...

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he's on our side he agrees with us on this subject and the subject is something i've never even thought of before in my life i have no knowledge of it all that's called anachronism if you read back into ancient documents into documents of the past concepts contexts meanings definitions that were not a part of the context of the writer of their own worldview of their own situation of their own vocabulary you are dealing with them in a disrespectful manner first of all and you cannot meaningfully say that what you're concluding from reading in that way all relevant to the issue that you're attempting to make it relevant to and yet in my experience the roman catholic apologists not only practices historical anachronism to the nth degree but really is is almost forced to do so by the teachings the roman catholic church i mean if you take seriously the definitions of vatican one regarding the infallibility of the pope if you take seriously the concept the infallibility of the church and when the church says it has been the ancient faith all along they use all these big grandiose words that normally communicate the idea that everybody believe this that this is the ancient faith the church then how can you not read the writings of early church writers and not come to the conclusion that's what they're talking about you have to and so this is this is almost a dogmatic anachronism and if you want a really good example of it look at what vatican one said about papal primacy about the interpretation of of passages regarding peter and the role of peter and things like that and you can obviously go to the early church writings and discover that's not true it's just it's just a false statement that has been dogmatized and then watch roman catholic apologists who sadly for them seek to be faithful to what they've been taught absolutely destroy the early church fathers to try to make them fit into the dogmatic mold that's been provided by rome to whom they have submitted their minds in uh...

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in obedience it's it's a sad thing to watch well anyway to smirnions let's try to avoid uh...

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the subject of anachronism in the sense of not practice it to the smirnions ignatius who is also called theophorus which means one who bears god in his body to the church of god the father and the beloved jesus christ at smirna in asia mercifully endowed with every spiritual gift filled with faith and love not lacking in any spiritual gift most worthy of god bearing holy things heartiest greetings in a blameless spirit and the word of god sounds a lot like paul to me uh...

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i pointed out in class that it's uh... it's interesting even though ignatius is most closely tied with the apostle john now he uses a tremendous amount of pauline language as well which would seemingly indicate to us that the apostolic message was a unified message not like many people seem to assume it today that well if you only knew john then you only got john's element of things uh...

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things uh... things like that by the way for those of you who are not familiar with this uh...

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ignatius is on his way to his martyrdom in rome uh... he knows he's going to die there in fact when he writes the romans he asked they do not interfere so that he may do so and uh...

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uh... that uh... certainly give some context uh... to what is being said section number one i glorify jesus christ the god who made you wise who made you so wise please note ignatius uh...

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refers to jesus christ as hathaos god numerous times if you'd like to see a discussion of how the watchtower society has massacred that fact uh...

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go to the watchtower bible track society section of our website there is a fairly lengthy paper there which you might find useful i glorify jesus christ the god who made you so wise for i observed that you are established in an unshakable faith having been nailed as it were to the cross of the lord jesus christ in both body and spirit and i just thought for a moment and if you've read ignatius you know that ignatius likes to use this kind of language that he's not speaking literally he's not saying that the church at smyrna has nailed itself to crosses uh...

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he is talking in a very metaphorical and allegorical way uh...

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but his meaning is very very clear he's talking about unshakable faith having been nailed as it were to the cross of the lord jesus christ in both body and spirit and firmly established in love by the blood of christ okay firmly established in love by the blood of christ now are we talking have we gotten to eucharist here have we gotten to sacraments here uh...

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no we're talking about the love that the believers in smyrna have for one another and he attaches this to the blood of christ well how is this is this some sacramental thing or is he talking about the fact that these individuals because they have been washed in the blood of christ because that is the the uh...

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common confession of all believers that there is this love that exists because their common confession in the sacrifice of christ firmly established in love by the blood of christ totally convinced with regard to our lord that he is truly of the family of david with respect to human descent son of god with respect to the divine will and power now obviously let's stop right there uh...

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what are we talking about here why why would ignatius start talking about the idea he's he's talked about the cross he's talked about body and spirit now he's talking about the blood of christ and now he's talking about the lord that he is truly of the family of david with respect to human descent if you read ignatius and no one argues this i say i found references in roman catholic sources today where they recognize that this is true this is a historical fact though they didn't then bring out what the full meaning of this would be to their own interpretation it is a historical fact that ignatius like john was deeply concerned about certain kinds of heresy in the church he saw certain kinds of heresy certain kinds of false teaching as being absolutely inimitable to the the the essence of the christian faith and when we think about the apostle john what does he constantly say he constantly says who is the antichrist but he that does what denies that jesus christ came in the flesh so we need to stop for just a moment and get a little bit historical background here on something called docetism docetism d -o -c -e -t -i -s -m the docetics the term comes from the greek term dachain which means it seems it seems dachain means it seems so a docetic was an individual who because of another belief called dualism dualism being the idea that the spirit the spiritual realm is good the fleshly created realm is evil therefore the docetics were individuals who uh...

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coming as as their religion encountered christianity they encountered this person of jesus christ they interpreted him as very clear from what the christians were saying that jesus christ was a great person he was a savior he was a wonderful person etc etc therefore he could not truly have been flesh he could not truly have been incarnate because the true god had nothing to do with with the the created world the creator of this world was a demiurge a lesser being still able to create but far removed from the true pure god and so the docetics did not believe that jesus had a physical body of flesh and bones they denied the incarnation john warned us he called them anti -christ and ignatius cannot help but constantly make reference to the danger of these false teachers isn't it interesting that one of the earliest heresies in the church was not the denial the deity of christ but the denial of the humanity of christ long before arius comes along the very first documents outside the new testament and even within the new testament uh...

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demonstrate to us the fact that this was the greatest concern that they had the docetics are the ones who would tell stories for example of how jesus and one of the disciples walk along the seashore and jesus is is opening these great gnostic secrets to the disciple and the disciple turns around and guess what there's only one set of footprints in the sand and it's not because of that old poem that jesus picked him up and stuff like that no jesus doesn't leave footprints in sand because he only seemed the kind to have a body of flesh and bones and so they would also they would also say well how could jesus suffer upon the cross if he didn't have a body of flesh and bones they would say well he only seemed to suffer it was only a display it was only a show of suffering it reminds me a little bit of what jehovah's witnesses say when they say jesus only seemed to have a physical body after his resurrection he manifested a physical body to try to to prove the disciples he had been raised i think there's an element of that there but anyway now you know a little about the docetics and ignatius is worried about them that's why he says totally convinced with regard to our lord that he is truly of the family of david you see why that's an anti the static comments with respect uh...

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uh... uh... family of their respect to human descent son of god respect the divine will and power uh...

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if you really want one most beautiful descriptions of the dual nature of christ look at his epistle to the fusions where he describes christ in these two ways back and forth that was just really beautiful uh...

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and so early on it uh... it destroys a lot of theories about how christology developed anyway truly born of a virgin he didn't just beam out he was truly born of a virgin baptized by john or the all righteousness might be fulfilled by him quotation from matthew chapter three truly nailed in the flesh for us under Pontius Pilate and Herod the tetrarch the cross took place in history in time in reality and in the flesh from its fruit we derive our existence that is from his divinely blessed suffering suffering true suffering you can see how this is all anti gnostic anti -desetic jesus was truly the god man the human nature of christ you see i mean from the very first paragraph this is the subject of this epistle now were the smyrnians having a special problem with this actually it's found in pretty much all of his epistles so it's a constant theme of his but maybe he knew that there was a an especially large group of desetics in that area i don't know in order that he might raise a banner for the ages through his resurrection for his saints and faithful people whether among jews or gentiles in the one body of his church if you notice there's that this there's nothing objectionable that we've even looked at so far and it's all very consistent what's saying section two for he suffered all these things for our sakes nor that we might be saved for he truly suffered just as he truly raised himself notice that one ding dong little red flag goes up here uh...

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those of you in channel remember just oh i don't know uh... two three weeks ago we had a jehovah's witness in channel who was arguing that john too does not mean that jesus raised himself here you have one of the earliest writers associated with the with the same writer of john chapter two how does he understand john chapter two he says and he truly suffered just as he truly raised himself mhm is an interesting not as certain please note the next word on believers say and if you if you followed the greek to the uh...

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the the link to the greek notice uh... office story those without faith they are on believers it is not a certain on believers saying that he suffered in appearance only it is they who exist in the parents only there is another very very very very very very very important point just looking channeling uh...

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our forty five minutes i said the program starts an hour forty five minutes on this came in i thought started one forty five bar uh...

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sorry anyway uh... this idea of appearance only member i said earlier that is that it's told stories jesus only seen that to suffer he didn't really suffer because he didn't have a physical body to suffer with now he says it not as certain unbelievers say so he's talking about unbelievers he's talking about their enemies he says that he suffered in appearance only it is they who exist in appearance only indeed their fate will be determined by what they think they will become disembodied and demonic wow what he's saying is these individuals uh...

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these individuals are are not that these are not people are in the church they are condemned this this belief this this teaching is absolutely opposite to the christian faith uh...

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if i keep going like this uh... we're not even gonna finish today so i gotta i gotta stop expanding upon every point by the way this is just how the classes go i mean this is this is that's why i really love that classes were to sit around we get to do all this for for more than just an hour anyway uh...

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section three for a known believe that he was in the flesh even after the resurrection to see the point there cc the point there for i know and believe that he was in the flesh incarnation first john chapter two percent of the three percent of the four john chapter one percent after one that would be touched scene felt that is there he was in the flesh even after the resurrection and when you notice those people say i'd see the resurrection it's all spiritual and when he came to Peter and those with him he said them take hold of me handle me and see that I am not a now here's

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I'd love to expand on this we talked about in class I am NOT a disembodied demon and the the term in the

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Greek is daimonion in Luke it is pneuma and it's not unclean pneuma in Luke there is a there is a comment at the bottom of the page here in Holmes's edition compare

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Luke 2439 the now lost gospel according to Hebrews and the teaching or possibly preaching of Peter are reported to have contained the same or a very similar saying that's interesting where did it come from I don't know was this the source that then led to the others vice versa

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I don't know but that would be the first thing that I would I would question is probably what

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Ignatius has referenced to here or has received here is he seems to know Matthew but possibly not

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Luke and if you had Luke then he'd have the correction to that as far as the sources available to him that takes us into all the discussions of the early church and the canon of scripture and the development of scripture over time in the sense of what what books were available in what areas and again this is this is why you take classes when they're offered on such subjects like this because you have more time to do it

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I continue on and immediately they touched him and believe being close to unite with his flesh and blood okay stop right there what he talking about he's talking about the resurrection he's talking about what we would identify as as the those post -resurrection appearances when

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Jesus enters into the room and notice what he says and immediately they touch him and believe being close to unite with his flesh and blood nothing about Eucharist here nothing about transubstantiation nothing at all if they're associated with his flesh and blood what he's talking about is the reality of his physical existence he was truly raised from the dead right okay just just reading it here if you can come up with something else let me know but we're just reading it here for this reason they too despise death indeed they proved to be greater than death and after his resurrection he ate and drank with them like one who is composed of flesh although spiritually he was united with the father what's he talking about its you say okay we've got it already yeah well

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I know but we need to keep the theme going here all the way through so that we can hear exactly what

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Ignatius is saying we're getting close we're getting close number four now I'm advising of these things dear friends knowing that you're of the same mind but I am guarding you in advance against wild beasts in human form men whom you must not only not welcome but if possible not even meet nevertheless do pray for them somehow they might repent difficult though it may be now he's talking about false teachers he's talking about people who are going around and he is he these individuals are teaching these things he's saying do not welcome them do not meet them do not bring them into your fellowship whatsoever he says

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Jesus but Jesus Christ our true life has power over this isn't nice to know that Christians have always believed even when facing false teaching even when facing the the horrible result of false teaching seeing people give in to false teaching that in the midst of that he says but Jesus Christ our true life has power over this isn't that what we all say the

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Lord is still in control for if these things were done by our Lord in appearance only then

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I am in chains in appearance only I love that if if all the stuff that Jesus did the suffering everything it demonstrated his true physicality was just simply a ruse it was just simply an appearance only then hey you know what these chains that I'm wearing

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I'm being dragged to to Rome to die they're in appearance only to doesn't really help me much does it because I still can't get out of them even if I think they're in appearance only why moreover have

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I surrendered myself to death to fire to sword to beasts but in any case near the sword means near to God with the beast means with God only let it be in the name of Jesus Christ that I may suffer together with him

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I endure everything because he himself who is perfect man empowers me so again he's on his way to his own martyrdom he knows what's going to happen to him he cannot help but have that come out in what he is saying section 5 certain people ignorantly deny him or rather have been denied by him which is interesting for their advocates of death rather than the truth not politically correct in dealing with heresy is he he's we might we might learn something from from how he handles things neither the prophecies nor the law of Moses have persuaded them in other words scriptural exhortation and demonstration of the physical nature of the mint of the incarnation resurrection of Christ not persuaded them nor thus far the gospel nor own individual suffering for they sit they think the same thing about us boy isn't that the parallel isn't that what happens today certainly is for what good does it do me if someone praises me but blasphemes my lord by not confessing that he was clothed in flesh

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I don't know how much clearer that can get I mean even if someone says well you know I like the work you do is such -and -such over there but you know

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I don't believe in the resurrection of Christ that doesn't do me any good that is do me a good at all and that's what he's referring to here is even when people say oh man you know

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Ignatius he's obviously very faithful many suffered many things but I don't believe that Jesus Christ came to flesh well you're still the

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Antichrist despite what you said about me is what he's saying here anyone who does not acknowledge this thereby denies him completely and is clothed in a corpse who's he talking about the static false teachers deny that Jesus Christ really came to flesh given that they are unbelievers a pista it did not seem worthwhile to me to record their names indeed far be it from me even to remember them until such time as they change their mind regard the passion which is our resurrection and so he said

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I'm not even gonna name names I mean I could give you names these false teachers but I'm not going to record their names unless they repent now those are the first five sections we've read every word of the epistle to the

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Smyrnians I did not find anything I didn't spend a lot of time but I went to those two websites the two major apologetics websites the two major publications

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I didn't see any of what I just mentioned to you on those websites I did see mentions of the aesthetics but it was always in a quotation from JND Kelly but nothing about the constant hammering away flesh and blood flesh and blood flesh and blood and all the discussion of how we've been united to Christ's flesh and blood with no hint of Aristotelian categories of accidents and and substance and transubstantiation and a term that wouldn't be coined for another 900 years or more none of that up to this point have we had to bring in anything outside of the context of what he's talking about to understand what he's saying no other than understanding that the aesthetics denied the physical incarnation of Jesus Christ and said he suffered in appearance only and we've been able to pick that up in the text

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I mean if we hadn't known that externally we still would have figured out from what was being said here that is the entire preceding context of the quotation that Tim Staples uses and is found in all of these you know

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I mean how many times we heard converts I just look at Ignatius well now we get to the section where it comes from section six of the epistle to the

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Smyrnians let no one be dismissed misled let no one be misled even the heavenly beings and the glory of angels and the rulers both visible and invisible are also subject to judgment if they do not believe in the blood of Christ now if you stopped right there what's he talking about is he talking about sacraments is he talking about transubstantiation up to this point what is the consistent interpretation the

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Jesus Christ truly was flesh and bone that he shed blood upon the cross of Calvary that he was truly man right

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I mean if if we if this is if this was the end of the letter as we saw it that let's say that some that the the the epistle was lost and it and the last page fell off or something like that and it ended here would anyone reading what came before come to this section and understand anything other than what has been said all the way up to this point

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I don't think so so that is very important to recognize they do not believe the blood of Christ the one who accepts this

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I have accepted do not let a high position make anyone proud for faith and love everything nothing is preferable to them now note well those who hold heretical opinions about the grace of Jesus Christ who came which came to us note how contrary they are the mind of God and who's he talking about is this is this a is this a shifting over to someone new is this some new context some new false teachers know of course not we talked about the grace of Jesus Christ has come to us he's still talking about the incarnate

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Lord the connection between the fact that if he's not truly human there is no gospel there is no salvation you can't have a suffering

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Messiah who only seems to suffer does really suffer etc etc they have no concern for love none for the widow none for the orphan none for the oppressed none for the prisoner or the one released none for the hungry or thirsty now he's saying these false teachers they're just like the ones described in scripture look at second

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Timothy chapter 3 the description of those people they're very similar to this false teachers they sneak into homes they take they take captive women who are laden down with sins and they're always teaching and they never come to knowledge the truth and and so on and so forth and then all the sudden no introduction nothing whatsoever to say okay

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I'm I'm shifting subjects now anything like that here comes the quote they abstain from the

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Eucharist in prayer because they refuse to acknowledge the Eucharist the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ which suffered for our sins in which the

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Father by his goodness raised up now if we if there had never been a doctrine of transubstantiation if there had never been a fourth ladder in counsel and think about it did these words have a particular meaning in the year 200 hundred years after written of course they did can we know that meaning without reference to something happened a thousand years later well we should be able to if words in language communicates anything this had a meeting when it was written should we interpret these words in light of what happened a thousand years later no not if we want to be fair to Ignatius and so if that had never happened what would these words mean remember

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Ignatius is warning against false teachers he's saying don't bring them in don't greet them don't meet them he's describing them and now he gives us another description of them and it's one thing to say they don't care for widows they don't care for the poor you know you can't always see that part but there's a way of detecting these false teachers there's something they won't do they abstain they will not participate in the

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Eucharist and prayer now Eucharist is a wonderful biblical term it's a wonderful biblical term it really is it's been stolen from us because of its its misuse of the

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Roman Catholicism and the attachments have been made but it just simply means the giving of Thanksgiving and became attached to the the supper and to the giving of thanks to God for the the sufferings of Jesus Christ the wonderful word and so the early church had the

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Eucharist and prayer this is this was part and parcel of their service of their of their worship but the docetics will not partake in that why why would a docetic refuse to partake in the life of the church where you have the remembrance and proclamation of the true body and blood and suffering of Christ well it's obvious when

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Jesus would say this is my body this is my blood when he institutes the supper and he gives the bread and the wine and this is the same words that that Paul uses in 1st

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Corinthians chapter 11 and you have the the entire establishment of the supper and the anamnesis the remembrance of Christ therein if you don't believe he had flesh and blood you're not going to participate in something that is based upon the reality of those things and so here is a means

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Smyrnians of recognizing these false teachers they abstain from the

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Eucharist and prayer why because they refuse to acknowledge that the

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Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ why would they do that because they don't believe in transubstantiation no because Jesus Christ didn't have flesh which suffered for our sins and which the father by his goodness raised up remember the

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Gnostics the docetics what was it that in Acts 17 caused the people they listened to Paul up to a certain point and then

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Paul said one word and that one word made them go oh come on Paul who is this babbler what nuttiness is that what one word was it anastasis and what's that resurrection see to them that was absolutely positively silly silly why would it be silly because anastasis means that which died coming to life again and for the

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Greeks for a dualist and the docetics salvation was being freed from the evil physical body and so the idea of resurrection the idea of Jesus's flesh being raised again not to be made present through some magical ceremony but raised to the right hand of the father that's what

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Augustine taught that's why Augustine said that the church on earth is deprived of the physical presence of Christ because his physical body is in heaven and so that's why they would not participate in this not because they were denying transubstantiation in the mass a concept completely foreign to Ignatius nowhere to be found within this letter nowhere to be found within the worldview the reason of the rejection goes back to their rejection of the physicality of the incarnation the resurrection and that is the only thing that you can honestly and with integrity derive from reading

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Ignatius in any fair manner at all and so to just simply rip this one section where he's talking about how to recognize false teachers recognize the docetics avoid them in the fellowship the church detect them when they have snuck in and do they not sneak in is that not the very nature of heresy to take this one sentence tear it out and wave it around like a banner saying say

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Ignatius was a Roman Catholic to believe in transubstantiation is to demonstrate that either you really really really could care less what

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Ignatius actually thought you're just a new convert and you know what as a new convert you're in the honeymoon stage and facts are irrelevant to you as long as it sounds good hey it's it as long as it's in the service of the

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Roman Church then baby I'm gonna I'm gonna tell you that's what he said that's that's the new convert thing now how do we explain how do we explain those who are not new converts and those who had plenty of time to read this and maybe even those who quote from other sources that would talk about the docetics and the background and they have no reason to be ignorant to these things what about them

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I don't know it seems that they have other reasons and other other motivations for doing what they're doing for some of them quite honestly it could simply be looked

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I've always heard that way it fits the church is no reason to think beyond that if so find wonderful but the point is that when we hear these things when we hear people throwing this stuff out ninety -nine percent of the time the evangelical protestant doesn't even know where to go to find out if the context has been violated if anachronism is involved and ninety -nine point nine percent of time that Protestant has not given a second thought to what level of authority any particular church father is to be given in the first place

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I mean there are writings contemporaneous Ignatius that theologically are horrific that have almost no connection with God's inspired word the

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Bible tells us that there are those who are untaught and unstable who pervert the

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Word of God their own destruction they existed during the days the Apostles and there's nothing the Bible says that after the last apostle dies

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God is going to make sure that none of these people can ever write a book in fact they're very busy writing books today and filling the

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CBA with them are they not they've been at it for a long time so if they existed today if they exist today they existed back then too and so so many so many

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Protestants just have never sat back about well you know what I need to evaluate the early church writers in the very same way

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I evaluate modern writers I can't just simply just because someone lived in the second century doesn't mean that they had any particularly deep knowledge of the things the gospel even if they had heard something about Christ so why in the world do we just just with this this blank numb look on our on our face just go well you know hey well if Tertullian said it then you know well

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Irenaeus said it then therefore what so what I mean some of these folks didn't even have access to the entirety of of the

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Bible many could not look at the Old Testament in its in its original language all they had was the

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Septuagint they there's there's all sorts of advantages that we have that for some reason people don't even factor them in and so the combination is

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I see it all the time I see Protestants to go well you know I've never read the early church fathers before it does look like they're talking about things like the mass and things well of course they are what why do you think that means what modern

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Rome thinks it means read the early fathers within their own context and even when you find them believing things

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I can read Augustine and I can appreciate many of the things that Augustine said especially when he's fighting against Pelagius but when he was fighting against Donatism he said a lot of dumb things

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I mean he's the one who utilized Jesus language compelled them to come in to allow the

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Emperor in Rome to send troops to suppress the Donatists that's not what

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Jesus was talking about do I have to somehow go well the great church father Augustine said it therefore maybe that's what

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Jesus meant what what what what is this what happened to discernment it is an amazing thing to watch it truly truly is so it's funny

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I forgot to I'm not sure if that was the phone call or not mr.

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Alpha Omega Ministries man was that Paul Edwards calling me by the way I don't know I didn't get a chance to respond because I didn't didn't take the break because I started preaching basically and so I just have to give him a call as soon as we're done here okay oh

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I guess the thing still out there anyway I need to have a control where I can control the computer is up or not

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I really need to do that anyway I hope that you know we didn't take any we didn't take any phone calls a because I started going on on on on and I really honestly thought

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I could get through that a little bit faster than I did but the the background the background of the of the material is very very important and it's normally what is lacking people come into channel all the time and they say well what did such -and -such person believe and you know one of the things that honestly is is disappointing to me and I don't know if it's just a cultural thing

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I don't know if it's just the modern culture that we're facing what it is but there is this how do

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I put it this this instant gratification element and that is hey just give me an answer

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I've got a Catholic that's asking me a question just give me an answer I had someone writing me and I'm not trying to pick on anybody but had some writing me over the past couple days hey tell me this this this and this and I didn't tell them this this this and this

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I said well here are some of the sources you might want to look up what such -and -such a person said here's the website you're gonna need to read this and I get an email back well but I've got a

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Catholic right now he's asking me these questions I need I need I need you to basically stop doing everything you're doing and write do things for me you know like I've got people right now private messaging me as if I have time for private messages while I'm doing the program that's that's amazing

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I mean okay I can just stop and okay I'm just gonna stop for a second answer private mess

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I can't do that it says hello hello anyway and so I wrote back and said look maybe you don't need to talk to this particular

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Catholic right now maybe you need to get hold of particular materials and you need to do some studying because there are issues that you need to understand you need to study what the early church fathers believed about certain things and if you're gonna give solid meaningful full responses you have to have a foundation from which to work so here's sources yes these are books they will they will take time to read but what is more worthwhile we are we are so much in the instant soundbite right now one short little thing and don't bother me with study and learning stuff and getting foundation and I'm not saying everybody does that but it it is more and more an element of of the the culture and hence an element of the questions that are often asked of me it's not hey how can

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I really learn and take time to do this and invest you know effort in it but instead you do the work for me you you just you just do all this for me then work that way well

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I hope Ignatius someday will be thankful for the fact that we were we took the time to be fair with his epistle to the

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Smyrnians and who knows maybe sometime we'll read the martyrdom of polycarp and a few other things they're really neat that's what we're doing this class and so it's it's enjoyable to do so I hope it was useful to you the next time you hear a

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Catholic convert going hey but Ignatius believed in transubstantiation you should too I hope you'll have the at least the link to this program or more even better than that I hope you will give an answer for the hope that's within you thanks for listening we back next

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Tuesday evening 5 p .m. Mountain Standard Time god bless standing at the crossroads away we must contend for the faith the fathers fought for we need a new

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Reformation day brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries if you'd like to contact us call us at 602 -973 -0318 or write us at p .o.

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box 3 7 1 0 6 Phoenix Arizona 8 5 0 6 9 you can also find us on the world wide web at a omen dot org that's a o m i n dot o r g where you'll find a complete listing of James White's books tapes debates and tracks join us again next