Job and the Problem of Evil

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll-free across the United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three three-three-four-one. And now with today's topic here is James white.

Opening Remarks and the Challenge of Bart Ehrman's Book

And good afternoon, welcome to the dividing line Thursday. Afternoon, hopefully all of you have caught up from the the time change that you all suffered. Well, except for those who are listening locally and are listening at the right time we have 50 people in channel right now that is our studio audience and Every once in a while, I just sort of cue them and they Were supposed to do something there, but it's too late.

They're gone. So the studio audience is dead. It's live. My sounds are off. No, that's what happened last time. It won't play sounds from the channel any longer. So that's you know, oh well such as life.

I don't know how that happened or how that works or how that could ever work. But oh well. But we did have the problem before so we're gonna have to troubleshoot that remember to try to troubleshoot that and I mean it doesn't make a sound on.

And I just played it and Nothing's happening. Then it's I think it's technical guys fault. It's technical guys fault. Yep. Yep. Yep technical guys 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 is the phone number normally Thursday's a little more caller driven than Tuesday's.

So if you'd like to pick up that phone and dial the toll-free number I realize with gasoline get as expensive as it is that that toll-free part is important. It is definitely I even put sounds on that's a sound off so evidently something weird is going on there and I have no idea why but Thankfully the other stuff does work and if we get around to playing some of their sounds later on.

At least they will be you know Catholic answers things and stuff like that, by the way. Whatever you do. If you ever have to buy anything from Catholic answers to where you give them your email address.

Just get ready to get hammered with fundraising emails from Catholic answers my Goodness, I have gotten the same one at least seven times again over the past families of the devil. Well, it's spam is of the Vatican.

Evidently, let me tell you and you know, it's it's interesting to watch this because Catholic answers likes to pick on me as a debate junkie and all the rest of stuff. And of course, I'm an anti-catholic.

I'm not a reformed Baptist apologist or anything like that, you know all the standard hypocrisy, but Then you watch these fundraising newsletters and he's fundraising emails and Let's see one of the recent ones was protecting Catholics from Mormonism and I'm like Okay.

Yeah, I I know that the Catholics are right up front on the Mormonism issue they've been right there all along and now the one is that I've gotten at least seven copies of and Not just at one time. I get them for days on end is Protect Defending the Pope we need to defend the Pope when he comes to America because ultra anti-catholics, I guess kept him from speaking at a university someplace in Germany or something or Italy I don't forget where it was but And because that happened there then you need to give money to Catholic answers to defend The Pope in America against those nasty anti Catholics and it's like wow.

This is really You know the first two were interesting. After number four got really annoying and now it's just pitiful so. Anyway, we don't do that. We don't send out spam emails like that trying to Scare you into supporting the ministry.

We just sort of figure the people who realize that there's a need for it. You know, the Lord will bring them our direction. So that's just that's this way it is anyways 877 -753 -3341 is the phone number last evening I had an opportunity to speak at Phoenix Foreign Baptist Church, I'll be preaching this Sunday as well and Spoke on a sort of tough subject you may recall a little while ago that.

The.

Of the our friends up in San Francisco Harper, San Francisco Harper and all of its various Subsidiaries who just loves to crank out all sorts of wonderful stuff about Christianity Put out Bart Ehrman's new book Titled God's problem how the Bible fails to answer our most important question why we suffer and I did address this in one of my One of my video blogs and I am having I am struggling I admit these days to Keep straight what I've talked about on videos and what I've talked about on the dividing line.

And I have to realize to remember that only some of the people who listen to dividing line also watch all the videos. Some will not even see the stuff about airmen till later on Unless I repost it. I said you remember I don't even know if it's posted or not yet because as I as of last evening Every normal open slot for a video, and I'm putting videos up basically Mondays Wednesdays and Fridays I figure 30 minutes is about all I can ask from somebody as far as sitting there watching videos and You know if you listen to the buying line great.

That's that's fine. To watch the video blogs requires you to be at your computer a lot of you put the dividing line on your iPod. And that means you can listen to it while you're driving and stuff like that, so I sort of figure The video blogs are extra time beyond the dividing line, and so I figure you know I just can't really ask for more than 20 30 minutes at most each week.

So I'm only putting three up a week is the schedule that I do now if I decide to Address something just sort of in passing. I'll go ahead and do that, but That's what I'm shooting for is that I will consider the blog to be properly active if Monday Wednesday Friday There's a video and Tuesday Thursday.

We have The issue of the dividing line being posted and that means pretty much five days out of the week. There's some sort of communication going on from Alpha Omega ministries. I figure that's probably wise way to do it anyway.

Rise of last night, I believe that is completely filled all the way till the second week of May of this year everything's filled up as far as the open spaces for that, so I don't even remember if What I did on airmen has already appeared.

I think it did, but I don't know I don't remember and So you know Just just the way it is and so I don't know if you've seen that if you follow the YouTube page. You saw my discussion of airmen's but but airmen's book is titled God's problem how the Bible fails to answer our most important question why we suffer and So I decided to address that last evening at church and I did so in light of What we have in airmen's book he Basically what he tries to do is to say well the Bible answers this question in a number of different ways and they are.

Contradictory.

Ways and of course he does go to the book of Job and He does address what the book of Job has to say.

And.

I thought I would just share with you Some of what Job does say and then make some comments on airmen's Perspective and then we already have two folks online, but once I've jumped into this I don't want to stop now and go to calls and try to come back to it.

So we'll we'll get to the calls here and in a little while. If you recall the story of the book of Job you have a righteous man and He endures a time of testing at the hands of Satan and Satan, of course is under the direct control of God he is not allowed to do anything more than God allows him to do and there is clearly in the background the vindication of God's identification of Job as a righteous servant.

That's there someplace that's right there at the beginning and Then you have a tremendous book by the way, I don't think we spend enough time with it. We sort of read it once and go lots heavy stuff and move on from there.

It's in those 39 almost forgotten books in modern evangelicalism. So most Christians don't spend much time talking about or thinking about it, but.

The.

The interplay between the friends of Job and Job and the it really takes a very Sophisticated theological mind to read this poetry. Now I know the standard way of modern scholarship is to look at this as myth and fantasy and blah blah blah blah blah, but Really when you when you look at it You discover for example that that all of the the narrators Job and his friends they all say many true things about God and one of the challenges of the book is to recognize that Even though they can say many true things about God Yet how they the context in which they are placed is Very very important very very important it determines the outcome of Whether God accepts what they have to say or not.

So it is interesting to To see that and and to keep that in mind and so after all this discussion and Job's friends are just are just absolutely certain That God would never allow this type of thing to happen to someone unless there was a specific sin involved and Job is protesting his innocence and his friends say.

And they go back and forth and finally Job finishes speaking and we we come to Job 38. Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind and said who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge.

Dress for action like a man. I will question you and you make it known to me. Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me if you have understanding. Who determined its measurements surely, you know?

Or who stretched the line upon it on? What were its bases sunk or who laid its cornerstone when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy. Or who shut in the sea with doors when it burst out from the womb when I made clouds its garment and thick darkness its swaddling band and prescribed limits for it and set bars and doors and said Thus far shall you come and no farther in here shall your proud waves be stayed.

Have you commanded the morning since your days began and caused the dawn to know its place? That it might take hold of the skirts of the earth and the wicked be shaken out of it. It is changed like clay under the seal and its features stand out like a garment from the wicked their light is withheld and their Uplifted arm is broken.

Have you entered into the springs the sea or walked in the recesses of the deep. Have the gates of death been revealed to you? Or have you seen the gates of deep darkness? Have you comprehended the expanse of the earth declare if you know all this?

Where is the way to the dwelling of light and where is the place of darkness you may take it to its? Territory and you may discern the paths of its home to its home. You know for you were born then and the number of your days is great.

Have you entered the storehouses of the snow? Or have you seen the storehouses of the hail which I have reserved the time of trouble for the day of battle and war? What is the way to the place where light is distributed or where the east wind is scattered upon the earth?

Who has left a channel for the torrents of rain in a way for the thunderbolt to bring rain on the land where no man? Is on the desert in which there is no man to satisfy the waste and desolate land and to make the ground sprout with grass As the reign of father or who has begotten the drops of dew?

From whose womb did the ice come forth and who has given birth the frost of heaven the waters become hard like stone the face. The deep is frozen. Can you bind the chains of the Pleiades or loose the cords of Orion?

Can you lead forth the Masoreth in their season or can you guide the bear with its children? Do you know the ordinances of the heavens can you establish their rule on the earth? Can you lift up your voice to the clouds that a flood of waters may cover you?

Can you send forth lightnings they may go and say to you here we are. Who has put wisdom in the inward parts or given understanding to the mind? Who can number the clouds by wisdom and who can tilt the water skins of the heavens when the dust return runs into a mass?

And the clods stick fast together. Can you hunt the prey of the lion or satisfy the appetite of the young lions when they crouch in their dens or lie in Wait in their thicket. Who provides the Ravens its prey when it's young ones cry to God for help and wander about for lack of food?

And so it goes on and on and on two chapters of these rhetorical questions all designed to point Job to a fundamental recognition that in essence God is God and Job isn't and yet even after all of this chapter 40 The Lord said to Job shall a fault finder contend with the Almighty.

He who argues with God let him answer it and Job answered the Lord and said behold. I am a small account. What shall I answer you? I lay my hand on my mouth. I have spoken once. I will not answer twice, but I'll proceed no further.

But that wasn't enough.

That wasn't enough. God. God has brought Job to recognize who he is and who God is but that Wasn't all that was a part of the answer, but it wasn't the full answer. And so we have even more all the questioning continues and finally at The end of all of this we get the job.

Chapter 42. Then Job answered the Lord and said I know that you can do all things and That no purpose of yours can be thwarted. Notice this new aspect the purpose of God. I Know that you can do all things Job doesn't say out of himself when I hear Christians Trying to limit God's capacity and expound and expand their own.

Then you need to have an interview with God as Job did I? Know that you can do all things that no purpose of yours can be thwarted. Who is this that hides counsel without knowledge. Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand Things too wonderful for me, which I did not know here and I will speak I will question you and you make it known to me.

I had heard of you by the hearing of the ear, but now my eye sees you. Therefore I despise myself and repent in Dust and ashes. Now there is repentance on Job's part repentance for what many would say for daring to ask questions, and I don't think that's what it is.

Because Job has said I had heard of you By the hearing of the earth. Now my eye sees you. Some of you may recall. Some of you may recall the first book of the Institute's the Christian religion by John Calvin.

Sadly many of you have probably never read it because you detest the man but that's probably not the case for most of our listeners regular listeners anyway, and In that first book I have often said that the greatness of an author in my opinion is Found in how his work remains relevant over time.

I've described the Institute's the Christian religion, especially the first book as When you handle them the ink smudges. And what I mean by that is that Calvin had a great gift to be able to address Timeless issues in such a way that he is not merely stuck within his own Time frame or at least he did in the Institute's obviously there would be in his letters or other books more of a Contemporary application because you have to name certain people respond to certain things.

But in the Institute's he managed to write in such a way that in the vast majority of instances the ink still smudges. It sounds like he's still with us that this is a contemporary writing a Gift. I certainly do not possess.

And.

One of the things that he addresses in the Institute's is what comes first the knowledge of Ourselves or the knowledge of God by which we then can have true knowledge of ourselves and he recognizes that it's a thorny question.

But he basically directs us to the idea that we can never truly have Knowledge of ourselves unless we begin with a knowledge of God the one who is constantly looking down upon the dark soil His eyes will be startled by the bright light of the sunshine when he looks up.

But if you would but look upwards and see the bright Sun Then you would have proper guidance to see what is here on earth. And it is by knowing who God is that we see what we ourselves really are. Now having said all of that and looking at the situation with Job. I think it's very clear that Job was given an appropriate answer by God.

Now if by answer we mean Something like well God was willing to be put in a position where he has to give the kind of answers We want and he has to answer every question We have in the way that we want to hear it then I would say no.

But that is not the only proper understanding of the word answer. Job Gay was given an answer in the very same way that Paul gave an answer to the questions in Romans chapter 9. Because to point a man to his creator so that he can see himself as he is and to recognize the sovereign purposes of God.

And to be driven to a trust in him Is indeed being given an answer. And so when we look at what Bart Ehrman had to say Looking at pages 172 and 173 of his book We read the following the poetic dialogues of Job.

There is no answer. As I indicated the beginning of this discussion the view of suffering the poetic dialogues of Job differs differs radically from that found in the narrative framing story of the prologue and the epilogue the issue dealt with in the Dialogues whoever is the same if God is ultimately in charge of all of life.

Why is it that the innocent suffer and I stop right there to point out that that's part of the problem. What does that mean? Continue in the folktale is because God tests people to see if they can retain their piety despite undeserved pain and misery.

In the poetic dialogues, there are different answers for different figures involved for Job's so-called friends. Suffering comes as a punishment for sin. This view appears to be rejected by the narrator.

Job himself the poetic speeches cannot figure out a reason for innocent suffering. Here's the key and God Who appears at the end of the poetic exchanges? Refuses to give a reason. It appears that for this author the answer to innocent suffering is that there is No answer.

Bart Ehrman God's problem pages 172 through 173 now, you'll notice He said God appears at the end. Yeah, he does. He's not a part of the long dialogues, but that's missing the fact that God was there at the beginning too.

And at the whole idea there is a purpose in what Job has gone through is provided first by The fact that we are given that background information that Job himself does not possess. Concerning what takes place in heaven?

Job's knowledge is limited to that which is upon the earth. And so Job is given an answer, but it's kind of answer that Bart Ehrman cannot possibly accept. Because you see Bart Ehrman cuts the Bible up into parts and pieces and He wants to find.

Contradiction he wants to find. I guess the more popular term is tension in the text. That's the proper academic term.

And.

He refuses to allow the Bible to speak in harmony. Most of scholarship agrees with Bart Ehrman at that point. But I would liken it to a person who would take The score of Handel's Messiah. Last week I was listening to Handel and so I got online and I ordered a book on the life of Handel because you listen to his music and it is just Just so tremendous it would be like a person who takes the score and you take the the bass and you take The tenor and You take the alto and you the soprano and you separate them out and then you take this element of the orchestral score you take the strings over here, and you take your woodwinds over here and You you put you take them all apart.

You cut it all apart and Then you try to analyze each one Separate from the others with the overriding insistence that you cannot put these together as one piece. They must be contradictory to each other.

That is the mess of The modern Academy in most instances today. You take the Bible apart you refuse the analogy of faith you and you refuse to allow this to be a divine revelation and The result is that you have as little Appreciation for the final product as a person who would take Handel and Do nothing but analyze the woodwinds and try to place them in contrast to the altos.

Easily done. Might get you a degree someplace. But what good ultimately is there did Handel Intended to be analyzed in such a way. Well, of course not and yet, that's what you end up having and Bart Ehrman because the position he is in Because of the purposeful damage to the cause of Christ that that he is intended to do as A former Christian marketing himself as that former Christian as kind of a fellow as he might be.

Remember, how many times have I have I said that I know people that I have debated That on the grounds of common grace and just simple personality are very nice people you might get the idea that because of Some really nasty folks out there that everybody that debates NASA.

It's not true. I've said many times John Dominic Crossan is the nicest heretic you'll ever meet. And I think he would chuckle at that at that but but it truly was. Mitch Pack was a really nice guy. He's Roman Catholic priest who calls himself an altar Christus and he has to be called to repent of that, but he's a nice guy.

There's no question about that you know some of the people that you know Gilbert Sharf said I just posted the Part of the cross-examination period from the debate we did with Gilbert Sharf's up. It's all like he's a nice little elderly gentleman.

He's wrong. He's misled people and that's why you debate him, but that doesn't mean he's mean or nasty like that. And I have no expectation that dr. Ehrman is gonna be a mean nasty fellow to debate. I think he's gonna be passionate.

But the fact the matter is He is an opponent of the Christian faith. He would say he isn't because there is no one Christian faith there are all sorts of Christianities. One of his books is called lost Christianities and of course he would identify every little subsect of Gnosticism as as a Christianity and and so on and so forth.

I understand all that. But he cannot allow The Bible to speak with one voice because were he to do so his very purposes for abandoning the faith would be lost and Therefore he insists upon this path that he has taken and He insists that you cannot harmonize harmonization is not allowable and That is a mark of so much of modern.

Academia.

You cannot harmonize you can't allow it to speak with one voice. You must look only for contrast and contradiction. You cannot seek harmony. And to seek the question I'm sorry to seek the answer to the question of suffering in the world from the Bible.

By cutting the Bible up into little pieces as if any one section of Job is meant to actually give the whole answer Is to cut yourself off from meaningfully finding the answer to what the Bible says about this particular subject.

The Bible's answer is full, but it's not found in just one place. And When you start with your conclusion. That the Bible is not going to give you an answer even when you're staring the answer in the face.

You're not going to see it. You just you just can't you can't do it and that's the problem that airmen has in dealing with what Job says. I Remember before we take our break and then go to our phone calls I.

Remember.

Back in the BBS days. I use as a tagline for messages to Mormons. May God grant you an interview. Job chapter 40. And what I was talking about was this encounter that God had with Job where Job places hand over his mouth.

Says I say no more. And of course for Mormons what I was trying to say is if you would but encounter the true God You would see how different he is from the anthropomorphic deity. That you worship as an exalted man from another planet.

But everybody needs to have an interview with God as Job did because we live in a society that's constantly making us humanists and Not those who honor our creator. That is a pressure that is placed upon us every single day.

Eight seven seven seven five three three three four. One can take a break and be right back.

Book and Ministry Advertisements

It's not an easy way it's a journey to the sun Following Jesus.

More than any time in the past Roman Catholics and evangelicals are working together. They are standing shoulder-to-shoulder against social evils. They are joining across denominational boundaries in renewal movements and many evangelicals are finding the history Tradition and grandeur of the Roman Catholic Church appealing.

This newfound rapport has caused many evangelical leaders and laypeople to question the age-old disagreements that have divided Protestants and Catholics. Aren't we all saying the same thing in a different language?

James White's book the Roman Catholic controversy is an absorbing look at current views of tradition in Scripture the papacy the mass purgatorian indulgences and Marian doctrine. James White points out the crucial differences that remain regarding the Christian life and the heart of the gospel itself.

They cannot be ignored. Order your copy of the Roman Catholic controversy by going to our website at a omen org. The Trinity is a basic teaching of the Christian faith. It defines God's essence and describes how he relates to us.

James White's book the Forgotten Trinity is a concise understandable explanation of what the Trinity is and why it matters. It refutes cultic distortions of God as well as showing how a grasp of the significant teaching leads to renewed worship and deeper understanding of what it means to be a Christian and Amid today's emphasis on the renewing work of the Holy Spirit.

The Forgotten Trinity is a balanced look at all three persons of the Trinity. Dr. John MacArthur senior pastor of Grace Community Church says James White's lucid presentation will help layperson and pastor alike.

Highly recommended. You can order the Forgotten Trinity by going to our website at a omen org. Under the guise of tolerance modern culture grants.

Alternative lifestyle status to homosexuality. Even more disturbing some within the church attempt to revise and distort Christian teaching on this behavior. In their book The same-sex controversy James White and Jeff Neal write for all who want to better understand the Bible's teaching on the subject.

Explaining and defending the foundational Bible passages that deal with homosexuality including Genesis Leviticus and Romans. Expanding on these scriptures. They refute the revisionist arguments including the claim that Christians today need not adhere to the law in a straightforward and loving manner.

They appeal to those caught up in a homosexual lifestyle to repent and to return to God's plan for his people. The same-sex controversy defending and clarifying the Bible's message about homosexuality.

Get your copy in the bookstore at a omen dot org.

Oneness Theology, John 17, and the Pre-Existence of the Son

Welcome back to the dividing line. We're gonna go to our calls and what I'm going to do is Gonna revert the order in which the calls came in because Last week at this time. We had a brief conversation with Manuel in, Missouri On oneness theology.

Manuel has since come into one of our chat channels. Had a discussion briefly, it wasn't a discussion which is why it ended because it was only going one direction, but I'm willing to take a second shot at having a biblically oriented discussion on the subject of oneness theology with Manuel.

We will see how it goes and Welcome back to the program. Hello. Yes, sir. Hi. Hi. Now last time we talked and was I watched the conversation in the apologetics chat channel? The fundamental argument that you presented last week and So on so forth has to do with in essence your rejection of a Trinitarian understanding of the definition of person and nature and I don't know that that is going to get us anywhere.

We know that that you reject our definition and think we should hold to a different definition. That's fine. I don't think that that is the actual primary issue that exists between us. I believe the primary issue that exists between Trinitarians and Oneness Pentecostals or whatever brand you would identify yourself with.

I don't know if you I'm one.

I'm one but you're not you PCI. No, I'm not. I'm independent. I'm an independent apostolic.

Okay, which which means could be all sorts of different flavors and varieties and so on so forth.

Because there's well, I come up through the UPC, but I don't believe in their organization.

So I left the UPC as it was that back in the 90s as a part of the general. Yes.

It was part in the 90s. Yeah, there was a lot.

How many what percentage would you think the UPC I lost in that in that entire incident probably 200 families? That's all. Well, yeah, I'd say so. Yeah, because I thought entire churches left during that period of time.

I don't know. Yeah, well, I don't know. Anyway, well, I I know that for example the Phillips Craig and Dean a number of their though Their churches represent former UPC I churches that you know went went different directions at that particular point in time.

But anyway It would seem to me that the fundamental difference between us is That we believe that the Sun is a divine person who has eternally existed as a divine Person not merely a plan in the mind of a Unitarian God.

But that's the Sun as a divine person a cognizant of his existence Communicating with the father Has eternally existed as a divine person now. Well, I know that understanding. I've heard that I know.

But now I think where we really differ. Dr. White is in the incarnation because we have God the Father in. God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself. God is God the Father not God the Son. That would be a contradiction in and of itself.

Now let me done was in the Sun. And then that would not make the man a person. Okay, and so so we need to say well.

Well, we're gonna have we're gonna have a conversation here. Yeah, well you but part of the work of the Holy Spirit is self-restraint and control Manuel. So I don't care how passionate you are. I'm just as passionate as you are, but I can control myself.

And so that's what I'm gonna ask of you. God was excuse me. I can put you on hold if I have to. I'm going to respond to what you have to say. Okay, I'll put you on hold so that you're not even tempted and when I'm done, I'll put you back on.

You cited a passage God was in Christ reconcile the world himself. That term n is a dative of Instrument not location. It is not an assertion that God the Father was located in Christ. The assertion is that God was by means of Christ Reconciling the world unto himself.

And so I think that's an inappropriate usage. So you're back on the air and I understand that this is a major difference between us but I assert that before you can discuss the Incarnation Manuel you have to discuss whether there is such a thing as Biblical evidence that the Sun existed as a divine person.

Now. Do you believe that? The Sun has eternally existed as a divine person. I told you last week. I don't believe that dr. Okay, I'm just getting Clarification so that everyone's on the same page. So there's no evidence anywhere in the Bible where the Sun speaks as a person a divine person prior to the Incarnation.

The only the only evidence we have dr. White is in prophetic utterance of the Sun revealing the Incarnation Later to come that's the only evidence that we have.

Okay, then could you give me your understanding then in light of your theology of Jesus's prayer in John chapter 17 Where he utters these words. And now father Glorify me together with yourself With the glory which I had with you before the world was.

Yes. Who is who is who's speaking in this text read John 7 38 and 39.

I'm sorry, John.

7 yes, John 7 38 and 39 in that great day of the feast Jesus stood and cried saying if any man thirst Let him come unto me and drink, but this faith you the Spirit which they that believe in him should.

I'm quoting from memory. I need my Bible. Go ahead and quote it.

Well, I asked you about John 17 not John 7 so we can. I'm giving you I'm giving you to pass. Let me get my Bible. Well, okay. All right, man. Well on that great day of the feast Jesus could cried.

Hold on just a sec. Didn't think I'd need it, but I will need it on the last.

You giving me the time on the on the last day the great day of the feast you stood and cried out saying if anyone thirst And I'm come to me and drink. He who believes me as the scripture has said out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.

Verse 39. But this he spoke concerning the Spirit whom those believing in him will receive for the Holy Spirit was not yet given because.

Jesus. Jesus was not yet glorified. Mm-hmm. Okay, you see that word glorified there. Dr White. Mm-hmm. The glory that Jesus speaks of is his is his death burial resurrection and ascension. The same thing Revelation 13 8 speaks of the lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

That was the glory.

Hello, yes.

That was the glory that he had with the father before the world was in the plan of God for for future redemption.

That was the glory that he spoke of. Okay, so in John 17 5 when Jesus addresses the father And he uses personal pronouns of himself and of the father He says glorify me. So this is I Guess the human aspect of Jesus praying to the divine aspect of Jesus in your understanding.