Job and the Problem of Evil

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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line
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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence
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Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation if you'd like to talk with dr.
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White call now 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll -free across the
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United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three three -three -four -one And now with today's topic here is
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James white And good afternoon, welcome to the dividing line Thursday Afternoon, hopefully all of you have caught up from the the time change that you all suffered
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Well, except for those who are listening locally and are listening at the right time we have 50 people in channel right now that is our studio audience and Every once in a while,
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I just sort of cue them and they Were supposed to do something there, but it's too late.
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They're gone. So the studio audience is dead It's live
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My sounds are off. No, that's what happened last time. It won't play sounds from the channel any longer
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So that's you know, oh well such as life I don't know how that happened or how that works or how that could ever work, but oh well
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But we did have the problem before so we're gonna have to troubleshoot that remember to try to troubleshoot that and I mean it doesn't make a sound on And I just played it and Nothing's happening
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Then it's I think it's technical guys fault. It's technical guys fault. Yep. Yep.
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Yep technical guys 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 is the phone number normally
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Thursday's a little more caller driven than Tuesday's So if you'd like to pick up that phone and dial the toll -free number
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I realize with gasoline get as expensive as it is that that toll -free part is important It is definitely
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I even put sounds on that's a sound off so evidently something weird is going on there and I have no idea why but Thankfully the other stuff does work and if we get around to playing some of their sounds later on At least they will be you know
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Catholic answers things and stuff like that, by the way Whatever you do If you ever have to buy anything from Catholic answers to where you give them your email address
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Just get ready to get hammered with fundraising emails from Catholic answers my
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Goodness, I have gotten the same one at least seven times again over the past families of the devil
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Well, it's spam is of the Vatican Evidently, let me tell you and you know, it's it's interesting to watch this because Catholic answers likes to pick on me as a debate junkie and all the rest of stuff
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And of course, I'm an anti -catholic. I'm not a reformed Baptist apologist or anything like that, you know all the standard hypocrisy, but Then you watch these fundraising newsletters and he's fundraising emails and Let's see one of the recent ones was protecting
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Catholics from Mormonism and I'm like Okay.
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Yeah, I know that the Catholics are right up front on the Mormonism issue they've been right there all along and now the one is that I've gotten at least seven copies of and Not just at one time.
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I get them for days on end is Is protect Defending the
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Pope we need to defend the Pope when he comes to America because ultra anti -catholics,
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I guess kept him from speaking at a university someplace in Germany or something or Italy I don't forget where it was but And because that happened there then you need to give money to Catholic answers to defend
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The Pope in America against those nasty anti Catholics and it's like wow
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This is really You know the first two were interesting After number four got really annoying and now it's just pitiful so Anyway, we don't do that.
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We don't send out spam emails like that trying to Scare you into supporting the ministry.
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We just sort of figure the people who realize that there's a need for it You know, the
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Lord will bring them our direction. So that's just that's this way it is anyways 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 is the phone number last evening
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I had an opportunity to speak at Phoenix Foreign Baptist Church.
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I'll be preaching this Sunday as well and Spoke on a sort of tough subject you may recall a little while ago that The Of the our friends up in San Francisco Harper, San Francisco Harper and all of its various Subsidiaries who just loves to crank out all sorts of wonderful stuff about Christianity Put out
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Bart Ehrman's new book Titled God's problem how the Bible fails to answer our most important question why we suffer and I did address this in one of my
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One of my video blogs and I am having
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I am struggling I admit these days to Keep straight what
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I've talked about on videos and what I've talked about on the dividing line And I have to realize to remember that only some of the people who listen to dividing line also watch all the videos
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Some will not even see the stuff about airmen till later on Unless I repost it.
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I said you remember I don't even know if it's posted or not yet because as I as of last evening
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Every normal open slot for a video, and I'm putting videos up basically Mondays Wednesdays and Fridays I figure 30 minutes is about all
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I can ask from somebody as far as sitting there watching videos and You know if you listen to the buying line great.
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That's that's fine To watch the video blogs requires you to be at your computer a lot of you put the dividing line on your iPod
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And that means you can listen to it while you're driving and stuff like that, so I sort of figure The video blogs are extra time beyond the dividing line, and so I figure you know
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I just can't really ask for more than 20 30 minutes at most each week So I'm only putting three up a week is the schedule that I do now if I decide to Address something just sort of in passing.
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I'll go ahead and do that, but That's what I'm shooting for is that I will consider the blog to be properly active if Monday Wednesday Friday There's a video and Tuesday Thursday.
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We have The issue of the dividing line being posted and that means pretty much five days out of the week
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There's some sort of communication going on from Alpha Omega ministries. I figure that's probably wise way to do it anyway
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Rise of last night, I believe that is completely filled all the way till the second week of May of this year
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Everything's filled up as far as the open spaces for that, so I don't even remember if What I did on airmen has already appeared.
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I think it did, but I don't know I don't remember and So you know
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Just just the way it is and so I don't know if you've seen that if you follow the
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YouTube page you saw my discussion of airmen's but but airmen's book is titled God's problem how the Bible fails to answer our most important question why we suffer and So I decided to address that last evening at church and I did so in light of What we have in airmen's book he
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Basically what he tries to do is to say well the Bible answers this question in a number of different ways and they are contradictory ways and of course he does go to the book of Job and He does address what the book of Job has to say
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And I thought I would just share with you Some of what Job does say and then make some comments on airmen's
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Perspective and then we already have two folks online, but once I've jumped into this I don't want to stop now and go to calls and try to come back to it
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So we'll we'll get to the calls here and in a little while If you recall the story of the book of Job you have a righteous man and He endures a time of testing at the hands of Satan and Satan of course is under the direct control of God he is not allowed to do anything more than God allows him to do and there is clearly in the background the vindication of God's identification of Job as a righteous servant that's there someplace that's right there at the beginning and Then you have a tremendous book by the way.
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I don't think we spend enough time with it We sort of read it once and go lots heavy stuff and move on from there
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It's in those 39 almost forgotten books in modern evangelicalism. So most Christians don't spend much time talking about or thinking about it, but the the interplay between the friends of Job and Job and the it really takes a very
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Sophisticated theological mind to read this poetry Now I know the standard way of modern scholarship is to look at this as myth and fantasy and blah blah blah blah blah, but Really when you when you look at it
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You discover for example that that all of the the narrators Job and his friends they all say many true things about God and One of the challenges of the book is to recognize that Even though they can say many true things about God Yet how they the context in which they are placed is
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Very very important very very important it determines the outcome of Whether God accepts what they have to say or not.
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So it is interesting to To see that and and to keep that in mind and so after all this discussion and Job's friends are just are just absolutely certain
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That God would never allow this type of thing to happen to someone unless there was a specific sin involved and Job is protesting his innocence and his friends say
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And they go back and forth and finally Job finishes speaking and we we come to Job 38
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Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind and said who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge
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Dress for action like a man. I will question you and you make it known to me Where were you when
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I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me if you have understanding Who determined its measurements surely, you know?
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Or who stretched the line upon it on? What were its bases sunk or who laid its cornerstone when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy
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Or who shut in the sea with doors when it burst out from the womb when I made clouds its garment and thick darkness its swaddling band and prescribed limits for it and set bars and doors and said
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Thus far shall you come and no farther in here shall your proud waves be stayed Have you commanded the morning since your days began and caused the dawn to know its place?
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That it might take hold of the skirts of the earth and the wicked be shaken out of it It is changed like clay under the seal and its features stand out like a garment from the wicked their light is withheld and their
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Uplifted arm is broken Have you entered into the springs the sea or walked in the recesses of the deep have the gates of death been revealed to you?
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Or have you seen the gates of deep darkness? Have you comprehended the expanse of the earth declare if you know all this?
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Where is the way to the dwelling of light and where is the place of darkness you may take it to its? Territory and you may discern the paths of its home to its home
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You know for you were born then and the number of your days is great Have you entered the storehouses of the snow or?
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Have you seen the storehouses of the hail which I have reserved the time of trouble for the day of battle and war? What is the way to the place where light is distributed or where the east wind is scattered upon the earth?
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Who has left a channel for the torrents of rain in a way for the thunderbolt to bring rain on the land where no man?
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Is on the desert in which there is no man to satisfy the waste and desolate land and to make the ground sprout with grass
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As the reign of father or who has begotten the drops of dew? From whose womb did the ice come forth and who has given birth the frost of heaven the waters become hard like stone the face the
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Deepest frozen can you bind the chains of the Pleiades or loose the cords of Orion? Can you lead forth the
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Mazaroth in their season or can you guide the bear with its children? Do you know the ordinances of the heavens can you establish their rule on the earth?
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Can you lift up your voice to the clouds that a flood of waters may cover you? Can you send forth lightnings they may go and say to you here?
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We are Who has put wisdom in the inward parts or given understanding to the mind? Who can number the clouds by wisdom and who can tilt the water skins of the heavens when the dust return runs into a mass?
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And the clods stick fast together Can you hunt the prey of the lion or satisfy the appetite of the young lions when they crouch in their dens or lie in wait in their thicket
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Who provides the Ravens its prey when it's young ones cry to God for help and wander about for lack of food?
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And so it goes on and on and on two chapters of these rhetorical questions all designed to point
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Job to a fundamental recognition that in essence
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God is God and Job isn't and yet even after all of this chapter 40
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The Lord said to Job shall a fault finder contend with the Almighty He who argues with God let him answer it and Job answered the
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Lord and said behold. I am of small account What shall I answer you? I lay my hand on my mouth.
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I have spoken once I will not answer twice, but I'll proceed no further But that wasn't enough
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That wasn't enough. God. God has brought Job to recognize who he is and who
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God is but that Wasn't all that was a part of the answer, but it wasn't the full answer. And so we have even more all the questioning continues and finally at The end of all of this we get the
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Job chapter 42 and Job answered the
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Lord and said I know that you can do all things and That no purpose of yours can be thwarted
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Notice this new aspect the purpose of God. I Know that you can do all things
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Job doesn't say out of himself when I hear Christians Trying to limit
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God's capacity and expound and expand their own Then you need to have an interview with God as Job did.
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I Know that you can do all things that no purpose of yours can be thwarted Who is this that hides counsel without knowledge therefore
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I have uttered what I did not understand Things too wonderful for me, which I did not know here and I will speak
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I will question you and you make it known to me I had heard of you by the hearing of the ear, but now my eye sees you
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Therefore I despise myself and repent in Dust and ashes now there is repentance on Job's part repentance for what many would say for daring to ask questions, and I don't think that's what it is
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Because Job has said I had heard of you By the hearing of the earth now my eye sees you some of you may recall
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Some of you may recall the first book of the Institute's the Christian religion by John Calvin Sadly many of you have probably never read it because you detest the man
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But that's probably not the case for most of our listeners regular listeners anyway and In that first book
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I have often said that the greatness of an author in my opinion is
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Found in how his work remains relevant over time. I've described the Institute's the
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Christian religion, especially the first book as When you handle them the ink smudges
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And what I mean by that is that Calvin had a great gift to be able to address
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Timeless issues in such a way that he is not merely stuck within his own Time frame or at least he did in the
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Institute's obviously there would be in his letters or other books more of a Contemporary application because you have to name certain people respond to certain things
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But in the Institute's he managed to write in such a way that in the vast majority of instances the ink still smudges
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It sounds like he's still with us that this is a contemporary writing a Gift I certainly do not possess and One of the things that he addresses in the
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Institute's is what comes first the knowledge of Ourselves or the knowledge of God by which we then can have true knowledge of ourselves and he recognizes that it's a thorny question
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But he basically directs us to the idea that we can never truly have Knowledge of ourselves unless we begin with a knowledge of God the one who is constantly looking down upon the dark soil
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His eyes will be startled by the bright light of the sunshine when he looks up But if you would but look upwards and see the bright
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Sun Then you would have proper guidance to see what is here on earth And it is by knowing who
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God is that we see what we ourselves really are Now having said all of that and looking at the situation with Job.
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I think it's very clear that Job was given an appropriate answer by God Now if by answer we mean
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Something like well God was willing to be put in a position where he has to give the kind of answers we want and He has to answer every question.
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We have in the way that we want to hear it, then I would say no But that is not the only proper understanding of the word answer
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Job Gay was given an answer in the very same way that Paul gave an answer to the questions in Romans chapter 9
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Because to point a man to his creator so that he can see himself as he is and to recognize the sovereign purposes of God and to be driven to a trust in him is
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Indeed being given an answer and so when we look at what
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Bart Ehrman had to say Looking at pages 172 173 of his book
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We read the following the poetic dialogues of Job there is no answer As I indicated the beginning of this discussion the view of suffering the poetic dialogues of Job differs differs radically
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From that found in the narrative framing story of the prologue and the epilogue the issue dealt with in the dialogues
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Whoever is the same if God is ultimately in charge of all of life Why is it that the innocent suffer and I stop right there to point out that that's part of the problem
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What does that mean? Continue in the folktale is because God tests people to see if they can retain their piety despite undeserved pain and misery
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In the poetic dialogues, there are different answers for different figures involved for Job's so -called friends suffering comes as a punishment for sin
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This view appears to be rejected by the narrator Job himself the poetic speeches cannot figure out a reason for innocent suffering.
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Here's the key and God Who appears at the end of the poetic exchanges?
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Refuses to give a reason It appears that for this author the answer to innocent suffering is that there is
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No answer Bart Ehrman God's problem pages 172 through 173 now, you'll notice
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He said God appears at the end Yeah, he does He's not a part of the long dialogues, but that's missing the fact that God was there at the beginning too
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And at the whole idea there is a purpose in what Job has gone through is provided first by The fact that we are given that background information that Job himself does not possess
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Concerning what takes place in heaven? Job's knowledge is limited to that which is upon the earth
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And so Job is given an answer, but it's kind of answer that Bart Ehrman cannot possibly accept because you see
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Bart Ehrman cuts the Bible up into parts and pieces and He wants to find
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Contradiction he wants to find I guess the more popular term is tension in the text. That's the proper academic term and He refuses to allow the
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Bible to speak in harmony Most of scholarship agrees with Bart Ehrman at that point
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But I would liken it to a person who would take The score of Handel's Messiah last week
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I was listening to Handel and so I got online and I ordered a book on the life of Handel because you listen to his music and it is just just so tremendous it would be like a person who takes the score and you take the the bass and you take
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The tenor and You take the alto and you the soprano and you separate them out and then you take this element of the orchestral score you take the strings over here and you take your woodwinds over here and You you put you take them all apart.
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You cut it all apart and Then you try to analyze each one
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Separate from the others with the overriding insistence that you cannot put these together as one piece
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They must be contradictory to each other. That is the mess of The modern
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Academy in most instances today You take the
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Bible apart you refuse the analogy of faith you and you refuse to allow this to be a divine revelation and The result is that you have as little
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Appreciation for the final product as a person who would take Handel and Do nothing but analyze the woodwinds and try to place them in contrast to the altos
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Easily done Might get you a degree someplace But what good ultimately is there did
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Handel Intended to be analyzed in such a way. Well, of course not and yet that's what you end up having and Bart Ehrman because the position he is in Because of the purposeful damage to the cause of Christ that that he is intended to do as A former
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Christian marketing himself as that former Christian as kind of a fellow as he might be
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Remember how many times have I have I said that I know people that I have debated
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That on the grounds of common grace and just simple personality are very nice people
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You might get the idea that because of some really nasty folks out there that everybody that debates
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NASA. It's not true I've said many times John Dominic Croston is the nicest heretic you'll ever meet
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And I think he would chuckle at that at that but but it truly was Mitch Pack was a really nice guy
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He's a Roman Catholic priest who calls himself an altar Christus and he has to be called to repent of that But he's a nice guy.
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There's no question about that you know some of the people that you know, Gilbert Sharf said
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I just posted the Part of the cross -examination period from the debate we did with Gilbert Sharf said, but it's all like he's a nice little elderly gentleman.
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He's wrong He's misled people and that's why you debate him, but that doesn't mean he's mean or nasty like that And I have no expectation that dr.
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Ehrman is gonna be a mean nasty fellow to debate. I think he's gonna be passionate But the fact the matter is
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He is an opponent of the Christian faith He would say he isn't because there is no one
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Christian faith There are all sorts of Christianity's one of his books is called lost Christianity's and of course
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He would identify every little subsect of Gnosticism as as a Christianity and and so on and so forth.
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I understand all that But he cannot allow The Bible to speak with one voice because were he to do so his very purposes for abandoning the faith would be lost and Therefore he insists upon this path that he has taken and He insists that you cannot harmonize harmonization is not allowable and That is a mark of so much of modern academia
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You cannot harmonize you can't allow it to speak with one voice. You must look only for contrast and contradiction you cannot seek harmony and to seek the question
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I'm sorry to seek the answer to the question of suffering in the world from the
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Bible by cutting the Bible up into little pieces as if any one section of Job is meant to actually give the whole answer is
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To cut yourself off from meaningfully finding the answer to what the Bible says about this particular subject
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The Bible's answer is full, but it's not found in just one place and When you start with your conclusion
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That the Bible is not going to give you an answer even when you're staring the answer in the face. You're not going to see it
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You just you just can't you can't do it and that's the problem that airmen has in dealing with what
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Job says I Remember before we take our break and then go to our phone calls
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I Remember Back in the BBS days. I used as a tagline for messages to Mormons.
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May God grant you an interview Job chapter 40 And what I was talking about was this encounter that God had with Job where Job places hand over his mouth
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Says I say no more And of course for Mormons what I was trying to say is if you would but encounter the true
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God You would see how different he is from the anthropomorphic deity That you worship as an exalted man from another planet
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But everybody needs to have an interview with God as Job did because we live in a society that's constantly making us humanists and Not those who honor our creator.
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That is the pressure that is placed upon us every single day Eight seven seven seven five three three three four
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Morgan take a break and be right back Progress it's not an easy way.
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It's a journey to the Sun Following Jesus More than any time in the past Roman Catholics and evangelicals are working together
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They are standing shoulder -to -shoulder against social evils They are joining across denominational boundaries in renewal movements and many
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Evangelicals are finding the history tradition and grandeur of the Roman Catholic Church appealing
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This newfound rapport has caused many evangelical leaders and laypeople to question the age -old disagreements that have divided
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Protestants and Catholics Aren't we all saying the same thing in a different language? James White's book the
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Roman Catholic controversy is an absorbing look at current views of tradition in Scripture the papacy the mass purgatory and indulgences and Marian doctrine
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James White points out the crucial differences that remain regarding the Christian life and the heart of the gospel itself.
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They cannot be ignored Order your copy of the Roman Catholic controversy by going to our website at a omen org
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The Trinity is a basic teaching of the Christian faith. It defines God's essence and describes how he relates to us
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James White's book the Forgotten Trinity is a concise understandable explanation of what the Trinity is and why it matters
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It refutes cultic distortions of God as well as showing how a grasp of the significant teaching leads to renewed worship and deeper understanding of what it means to be a
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Christian and Amid today's emphasis on the renewing work of the Holy Spirit The Forgotten Trinity is a balanced look at all three persons of the
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Trinity Dr. John MacArthur senior pastor of Grace Community Church says James White's lucid presentation will help lay person and pastor alike highly recommended
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You can order the Forgotten Trinity by going to our website at a omen Org under the guise of tolerance modern culture grants alternative lifestyle status to homosexuality
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Even more disturbing some within the church attempt to revise and distort Christian teaching on this behavior in Their book the same -sex controversy
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James White and Jeff Neal write for all who want to better understand the Bible's teaching on the subject
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Explaining and defending the foundational Bible passages that deal with homosexuality including
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Genesis Leviticus and Romans Expanding on these scriptures they refute the revisionist arguments including the claim that Christians today need not adhere to the law in a straightforward and loving manner
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They appeal to those caught up in a homosexual lifestyle to repent and to return to God's plan for his people the same -sex controversy
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Defending and clarifying the Bible's message about homosexuality Get your copy in the bookstore at a omen or And we'll go back to the dividing line where you go to our calls
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And what I'm going to do is going to revert the order in which the calls came in because Last week at this time.
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We had a brief conversation with Manuel in, Missouri on Oneness theology
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Manuel has since come into one of our chat channels Had a discussion briefly, it wasn't a discussion which is why it ended because It was only going one direction, but I'm get willing to take a second shot at having a biblically oriented discussion on the subject of oneness theology with Manuel we will see how it goes and Welcome back to the program
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Well, yes, sir All right. Hi Now last time we talked and was
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I watched the conversation in the apologetics chat channel The fundamental argument that you presented last week and so on so forth has to do with in essence your rejection of a
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Trinitarian understanding of the definition of Person and nature and I don't know that that is going to get us anywhere
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We know that that you reject our definition and think we should hold to a different definition, that's fine
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I don't think that that is the actual primary issue that exists between us
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I believe the primary issue that exists between Trinitarians and Oneness Pentecostals or whatever brand you would identify yourself with I don't know if you
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I'm one I'm one but you're not you PCI. No, I'm not.
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I'm independent. I'm independent apostolic Okay, which which means could be all sorts of different Flavors and varieties and so on so forth because there's well
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I come up through the UPC But I don't believe in their organization So I left the UPC as it was that back in the 90s as a part of the general.
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Yes It was part in the 90s. Yeah, there was a lot How many what percentage would you think the
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UPC I lost in that in that entire incident? probably 200 families
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That's all Well, yeah, I'd say so. Yeah, because I thought entire churches left during that period of time.
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I don't know Yeah, well, I don't know. Anyway, well, I I know that for example the Phillips Craig and Dean a number of their their churches represent
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Former UPC I churches that you know went went different directions at that particular point in time.
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But anyway It would seem to me that the fundamental difference between us is
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That we believe that the Sun is a divine person who has eternally
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Existed as a divine person not merely a plan in the mind of a
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Unitarian God but that's the Sun as a divine person a cognizant of his existence
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Communicating with the father Has eternally existed as a divine person now,
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I know that understanding I've heard that I I know but now I think where we really differ.
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Dr. White is in the incarnation because we have God the
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Father in God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself God is
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God the Father not God the Son that would be a contradiction in and of itself Now the
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Sun was in the Sun And then that would not make the man a person.
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Okay, and so Well, we're gonna have we're gonna have a conversation here Yeah, well you but part of the work of the
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Holy Spirit is self -restraint and control Manuel and So I don't care how passionate you are
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I'm just as passionate as you are, but I can control myself. And so that's what I'm gonna ask of you
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God was excuse me. I can put you on hold if I have to I'm going to respond to what you have to say
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Okay, I'll put you on hold so that you're not even tempted and when I'm done
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I'll put you back on You cited a passage
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God was in Christ reconciling the world himself That term
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N is a dative of Instrument not location. It is not an assertion that God the
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Father was located in Christ The assertion is that God was by means of Christ Reconciling the world unto himself.
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And so I think that's an inappropriate usage So you're back on the air and I understand that this is a major difference between us
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But I assert that before you can discuss the Incarnation Manuel you have to discuss whether there is such a thing as Biblical evidence that the
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Sun existed as a divine person now, do you believe that? The Sun has eternally existed as a divine person.
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I told you last week. I don't believe that dr. White Okay, I'm just getting Clarification so that everyone's on the same page.
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So there's no evidence anywhere in the Bible where the Sun speaks as a
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Person a divine person prior to the Incarnation the only the only evidence we have dr
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White is in prophetic utterances of the Sun revealing the Incarnation Later to come that's the only evidence that we have.
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Okay, then could you give me your understanding then in light of your theology of Jesus's prayer in John chapter 17
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Where he utters these words and now father Glorify me together with yourself
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With the glory which I had with you before the world was Yes Who is who is who's speaking in this text read
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John 7 38 and 39? I'm sorry, John 7 Yes, John 7 38 39 in that great day of the feast
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Jesus stood and cried saying if any man thirst Let him come unto me and drink, but this faith you the
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Spirit which they that believe in him should I'm quoting from memory. I need my Bible go ahead and quote it.
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Well, I asked you about John 17 not John 7 I'm giving you the passage.
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Let me get my Bible. Well, okay. All right, man Well on that great day of the feast Jesus could cried
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Hold on just a sec Didn't think I'd need it that I will need it on the last
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On the on the last day the great day of the feast Jesus stood and cried out saying if anyone thirst that I'm coming in drink
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He who believes me as the scripture has said out of his heart will flow rivers of living water verse 39 but this he spoke concerning the
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Spirit whom those believing in him will receive for the Holy Spirit was not yet given because Jesus Jesus was
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Not yet glorified Okay, you see that word glorified there. Dr. White. Mm -hmm. The glory that Jesus speaks of is his
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Is his death barrel resurrection and ascension? The same thing Revelation 13 a speaks of the lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
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That was the glory Hello. Yes, that was the glory that he had with the father before the world was in the plan of God for for future redemption
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That was the glory that he spoke of. Okay, so in John 17 5 when
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Jesus addresses the father And he uses personal pronouns of himself and of the father
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He says glorify me. So this is I Guess the human aspect of Jesus praying to the divine aspect of Jesus in your understanding
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Yeah, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I Had with you before the world was
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So the I here is a plan Yes, it's so plans speak.
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Dr. White. You have to add the glory in there It says Jesus was not yet glorified in John John 7 38 and 39 that was the glory that he was speaking of well
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I burn he was referring to his death barrel resurrection and ascension is what he was speaking of in Revelation 13 8 it says the lamb was slain from the foundation world with the lamb literally slain
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So the foundation of the world was that plant was that the plan of God for future redemption? so the way that you interpret the words of Jesus in John 17 is you go back to John 7 and you make a linkage between the two and Say it has the only way that Jesus has ever been glorified or could ever be glorified
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Is through the death barrel and resurrection even though in John 12 39 through 41
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John tells us that it was Jesus Who is seen upon the throne being worshipped and glorified by the cherub and the seraphim which had nothing to do with death barrel resurrection?
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But that you go back to John 7 you make that the only possible glorification that Jesus could experience though I'm not sure how
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John 7 says that and then read that into John 17 with the result that the first first person pronoun that I had with you literally in your
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Presence before the world was the eye is no longer the Sun speaking.
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It's a plan speaking Dr. White I knew you were going to say that so read John 17 and 22
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Oh Glory, which thou hast gaven has gavest me I have given them that they may be one even as we are one
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I am them and thou in me That they may be made perfect in one and that the world may know
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That thou has sent me and has loved them as thou has loved me father
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I will that they also whom thou hast given me be with me where I am That they may behold my glory which thou has given me for thou lovest me before the foundation of the world
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So every right there Yeah, exactly and every single pronoun whether first second or third person in that section
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Was about a person not a plan wasn't it? Yes, because Jesus was a person standing right there
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But he wasn't a person but if I if I said to you I want you to give me
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The Bible that you let me use three years ago when
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I was in your church If I said that would you have any difficulty understanding what
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I was saying? It's not that you're comparing apples and oranges not even the same thing but when Jesus says
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God had a plan for when of mankind when Jesus but when Jesus says
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Glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed then in that situation all of a sudden we can take pronouns and Change their referent in midstream for what reason is there anything in the context of forces?
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It is no I submit to you It is because you don't believe that Jesus existed in the presence of the
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Father before the world Existed so you don't have to reduce the Sun in this instance to a plan rather than a divine person
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And I'm John Lee. I'm certainly willing to let the people in the audience
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Listen to that look at the text and find out for themselves Then the best way to do that is to go to John 6 58
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If you if you have to keep bouncing around the the text of John Well to define pronouns and one particular sentence, then
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I'll let you again I really honestly think that that demonstrates that demonstrates the fact but Is there any possible way that any text could could present the idea that the
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Sun? existed as The Sun prior to his incarnation, or is it just a given to you that whatever they are that they can't say that dr.
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White John 662 this is one of your sugar sugar stick passages for pre -existence of the
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Sun correct What sugar stick passes and I don't even know what that means what you know it's it's something that you use
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It's one of your proof text to prove that the Sun exists pre -existed before the incarnation as God the
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Sun John 662 what I've never used that I've never used that you never use that passage
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No, well if you shall see the Son of Man ascend up where he was before I think that's exactly what it's saying
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But that's I've I've I much rather Demonstrate the existence of the
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Sun by demonstrating that the Bible that plainly teaches that he was
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Why by he that he was active? prior to the incarnation because once you see that all the other
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Subtle shifts and attempts to say well It was just a plan everything else when you see the
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Sun active prior to the incarnation the case is Closed and that's why you've lost right over verse 22 though that that talked about his glory
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No, I didn't because heard to the the is His being slain that's exactly what his glory was talking about his slain humanity, and you've glossed right over it
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I'm not glossing over anything I'm just letting everyone in the audience here that was that when you
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Okay, I'll just put you on hold so I can answer the question because you clearly are incapable of Engaging in dialogue you just have to talk over folks, and so we'll just use the hold button and maybe accomplish something here but once again as I had pointed out if you're going to assert a limitation to the meaning of glory
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Then you have to demonstrate from the context that that limitation is being applied
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I assert to you That the term glory is used in many ways not only of the glorification of Christ But the glorification of God the
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Father as well There is not just one way in which he is glorified, and there is not just one way in which his glory is demonstrated
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Certainly God is glorious because he's the creator But he's also glorious because he's redeemed given your thinking it would have to be one or the other it couldn't be both and therefore
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I reject that particular thing now Putting you back on the air.
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I was going to ask you is there any text whatsoever such as the statement of The Apostle Paul that you would accept when describing
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Jesus it says who Though he existed in the form of God did not regard
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Equality with God a thing to be grasped But made himself nothing taking the form of a servant being born the likeness of men now
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How could the a plan? Not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped isn't can making consideration
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Dr.. White have you ever thought about that have you ever given that any thought? Many many times yes, why any time
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God? Why would God even think about being equal with God God is God he has no equal?
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That's a ridiculous statement if you're a Unitarian, but if you don't assume Unitarianism then
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Flippians 2 makes perfect sense I'm not a Unitarian. I'm one that I don't even like to be called
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Unitarian sir Unitarian is a I know what you I know What you how you use it bye -bye?
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so long Manuel You cannot have a conversation with people you just can't do it.
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You've proved it in chat channel You've proved it twice down the dividing line. That's it hasta la vista
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Good night is Not self -control one of the elements of the work of the
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Holy Spirit my goodness I Well, we tried.
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You know we really Honestly tried I tried to help him stay calm by putting him on hold once in a while You know maybe that didn't make him calmer.
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I don't know but you try I'm gonna finish the point here, and then we'll we'll go on with the callers for the last few minutes that we have the point of course of Flippians chapter 2 is that It says although he existed in the form of God did not regard equality with thing
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Equality with God a thing to be grasped the fact is the Sun The Sun did not consider
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Equality with God a thing to be grasped to be able to consider something means you are a person and Since you are a person you are not a plan
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It was the Sun who entered into human flesh It was the Sun who did this not the father and once again the clarity of biblical revelation
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Can be seen and the inability of false teaching is clearly seen as well
50:54
Let's quickly go to Scott. Hi Scott How you doing, oh good if you if you dare interrupt me even once your history
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Now for something completely different I imagine it better be that's all
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I can say Um this question came up in channel a couple nights ago
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There's a Matthew 21 7 with Jesus writing the Colton in Jerusalem Okay, and Matthew recorded they bring two animals lay their coats on them and Jesus sat on the coats
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Doesn't tell us which one and Mark and Luke just record him writing on the cult might seem like a silly question, but I Mean what do you have any ideas on why
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Matthew doesn't Clarify it like the other two Nope never really thought about it.
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It seems let me see here. Do you do to do to do to do? I just love okay
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Stuff like this. I just generally look it up in the encyclopedia Bible difficulties and see what's going on I mean normally when you have one or two or something like that Again, it's just in the synoptic
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Gospels It's a matter of how much detail someone wants to wants to provide
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Matthew 21 to mentions two animals involved in Christ's entrance in Jerusalem the mother donkey and her foal The peril counts in Mark and Luke 19 only the male foals referred to nothing is said about the mother
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But this is not constitute a contradiction because all three Gospels agree that Jesus wrote on a young donkey foal a polos that had not been written before only the mother donkey is at issue rather than being guilty of embellishing the narrative over Matthew was
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Simply pointing out that the predictions Zechariah 9 9 was fulfilled by the to the letter by this symbolic action of Christ Zechariah 9 9
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Closed the words humble and mount on the donkey even on a foal the son of a she -ass
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Matthew goes on to record that the mother donkey went on ahead of Jesus as he wrote on her young foal
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What was the point involving the she -ass in this transaction a moment's reflection will bring out the fact that if the foal had never yet been
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Written and that was an important factor of the sake of the symbolism Then he probably was still dependent on his mother psychologically or sentimentally even though he may have been completely weaned by this time
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It simply made it an easier operation with the mother donkey were led along down the road toward the city gate
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Then the foal would naturally follow her even though he had never before carried a rider and had not yet been trained to follow a road
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Way the Zechariah passage does not actually specify that the parent donkey would figure in the triumphal entrance It simply describes the foal as the son of a she -ass by way of poetic parallelism
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But Matthew contributes eyewitness observation quite possibly neither mark nor Luke where eyewitnesses as Matthew was
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That the mother actually preceded Jesus in that procession that took Jesus into the Holy City here again Then there is no real contradiction between the synoptic accounts
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But only added detail on the part of Matthew as one who viewed the event while it was happening. Dr Gleason Archer encyclopedic
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Bible difficulties highly recommended for looking at issues exactly like that and who knows maybe someday
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We'll have that stuck in Gutenberg That would be nice How's that?
54:07
That works. Okay. Got one more call to get to thanks for your call today, sir And let's real quickly get
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Johnny on the air. Hi, Johnny Hey, how are you doing? All right I Actually had two questions.
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I don't think we're gonna have time to get to the second one So actually I was kind of wondering I'll ask my second question
54:27
What about Pope and the Pope and Luther? Well, you know, I'll go with that one then sir. The second one was gonna be on Vantel, but Yeah, anything you said about Vantel in three minutes that's not possible
54:40
Well, the thing is I'm kind of curious as to how because I read in the article I guess that this is gonna be discussed by a
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Pope Benedict on September or something like that. Uh, yeah Yeah, and I'm kind of wondering
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Because a lot of the the post -modern Catholics even in my own family are probably gonna be drawn to this movement
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Whatever it creates right I can see that there's gonna be an obvious error within the
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Roman Catholic apologetic community But I'm kind of curious and intrigued as to how the reaction will come from people like Jerry, Matt, it takes who has
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I think become a phoenix and people like Roberts and Jenna's or the really ultra -conservative
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Roman Catholics out there. I'm kind of thinking that maybe Catholic answers might run with the
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Pope on this Well, here's his real quickly his situation. I've already been criticized for daring to discuss
55:37
The fact that this has been reported in the media I'm not allowed to do that according to Dave Armstrong and people like that.
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I can't even discuss these things I put up a video where I discussed what the ramifications of such a decision would be
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But I very clearly said this is what is being reported and said this is still yet future We don't know about what's gonna happen
55:55
But if it were here be some of the ramifications I have been Dave Armstrong as as everybody knows had promised
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I think about six days ago to never saying about me again that lasted again for about six days He is definitely a man of his word and he went after me for daring to even talk about the possibilities here
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The Vatican is now saying oh, no. No, no. No, there's not gonna be a rehabilitation of Martin Luther. Well, I Don't care.
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It doesn't matter to me. I debated an RCIA Instructor years ago in Salt Lake City that referred to st.
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Martin Luther He referred he said Martin Luther was right This is an RCIA instructor who has much more official staying than Dave Armstrong will ever have in the
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Roman Catholic Church And he called him st. Martin Luther and said Martin Luther is right and that the Catholic Church has done everything that Martin Luther Said it should do so that viewpoints already out there.
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You already have this massively fractured landscape of Viewpoints within modern
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Roman Catholicism, which is what all I was talking about on on my video was is that it's getting harder and harder for Roman Catholic apologists to keep a straight face
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When they talk about these things, so I don't know what's going to happen this this summer
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The Pope might just say certain nice things about Luther, but leave the condemnation there.
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I don't know But if it were to happen and stranger things have happened
57:22
James there's one thing because I remember when I first met you back in July of 2000 when you debated
57:29
Tim Staple I picked up an audio tape set by Tim Staple's called
57:35
Infallibility versus impeccability and one of the things that he was talking about as he discussed I believe it was the issue of Zosimus and I can't remember if it was
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Galatius or I can't remember the name of the probably Honorius Honorius. Yeah, he was a previous
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Pope and Honorius I guess had condemned Pelagius and then Zosimus had lifted the condemnation if I'm remembering the exact names, right?
57:58
But the idea was that a condemnation is not in and of itself an infallible act.
58:03
Well, no, okay Yeah, let me let me quickly address that. No, it's not allegedly infallible act Though I would point out that for example if you have
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Popes for 400 years who condemned with the anathema Honorius on their rising to the position of Bishop of Rome if that does not reflect an infallible decision on the part of the church
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What good is the word is really really becomes the question But the real issue is this in light of how
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Rome has treated Luther and Lutherans over hundreds of years Can we not derive something?
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Can we not understand something from that consistent behavior if Rome's saying we can't then how can we know anything that Rome has to say?
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That's the real question. Hey, we'll continue it next time on the dividing line. See you then. God bless The dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega Ministries If you'd like to contact us call us at 602 -973 -4602 or write us at p .o.
59:40
Box 3 7 1 0 6 Phoenix, Arizona 8 5 0 6 9. You can also find us on the world wide web at a omen org
59:47
That's a o m i n dot o RG where you'll find a complete listing of James White's books tapes debates and tracks