Alan Conner

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of alpha the mega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 9 7 3 4 6 0 2 or toll-free across the United States. It's 1 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1. And now with today's topic here is James white.

Opening Remarks and the Guest's New Book on Covenant Children

And good morning, welcome to the dividing line glad to be with you in more ways than one about 10 minutes ago. We didn't think we would be with you at all but we got we kick-started the server and got it going again, and so here we are and It's good to be with you during this holiday season and Lots of stuff going on.

I've I've honestly felt like I'm just sort of out of it for quite some time now. There's just so much happening in so many realms That if I didn't have other stuff going on, I I probably would have Been doing all sorts of blogs on all sorts of things.

It's just too much. I mean Trying to keep up with the Mormonism stuff and keep up with Roman Catholicism and Islam and everything else. There's there's just just too much. I suppose if I had a big old staff or something like that We might be able to do that.

But I mean I have this whole list sitting on my computer of all these, you know Serieses that I've started guy continue with alia tie and and continue this continue that and then there's all this other stuff that I've wanted To do some of this stuff there has been there for I think two years now.

And The days just go by faster and faster and faster and faster and you just can't keep up with all of it, but we We do our best today on the dividing line, I have a special guest there is a Group that has started called reformed Baptist academic press and They are associated the same folks have put out the reformed Baptist theological review for which I have written a number of times and So, you know our Presbyterian Brethren have all sorts of publishing houses.

You got Presbyterian reformed and stuff like that and and they've got all these nice Established places and so when someone is is trying to do a good work and put out some good good information good material.

It's always good to help them to do so and for example they just put out Jim Renahan's true confessions it is a Compilation of historical Baptist confessions placed in parallel to one another so you can compare them with one another and and see the the interrelationships and things like that.

It's bound so it doesn't if it was bound as a normal book was bound that wouldn't really do much good because you always have To be holding up, but it's spiral bound so that you can Lay it open and do studies and stuff like that.

They just put that out and that's a real neat resource and then another Another Book that they just put out is by Alan Connor. It's called covenant children today physical or spiritual and Those of you who listened to the dividing line on the 8th of November in the evening heard a Skype facilitated Debate between myself and Greg Strawbridge on this subject.

You may have seen or listened to my debate with Bill Shishko from Franklin Square Orthodox Presbyterian Church on this subject as well and so, you know that there is a difference of viewpoint between pedo Baptists and the credo Baptist on the subjects of the nature of the New Covenant and issues related to that so Alan Connor joins me on the dividing line today and Alan it is a pleasure to have you with us today.

Pastoral Concerns Behind the Book and the Nature of the New Covenant

Well, thank you. Dr. Juan. I appreciate you have me on your program today. Now. You're you're down. Are you a down in Oklahoma City? Yes, okay. All right. I was Down there not too long ago I'm trying to remember You know after after you've traveled as much as I have you just start Losing track of what in the world you were doing when you were wherever you were last time.

You were at a conference here. Yeah. Sadly I was out of town to get you to come back to Oklahoma City sometime soon. Well, that was beautiful.

I had an opportunity of visiting the memorial down there in downtown, Oklahoma City and and stuff like that. So it was a good good good time to be down there now. You're at the Northwest Bible Church in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma and so what would just from a pastoral perspective.

What was the The driving force that caused you to to write this book.

Well, the one of the big reasons moved over into it. We needed to have the infant baby in Jesus Christ. No, but it was primarily, you know, the concern because of the influence, right?

Yeah, that's certainly been from a pastoral perspective anyways, the reason that I addressed the issue in our own church a number of years ago and and Because that that happens very often and many people who come out of an Arminian background or just a a Just general evangelical background and start reading the great reformers are not even aware that there is any other position on the subject it's either you're a Dispensational Anabaptist quote-unquote or you're you you're a paedo-baptist.

The idea of there being a a Position that is in between those and that recognizes the the importance of the covenant of grace and things like that yet does not Go so far as to embrace paedo-baptism. Many people just aren't aware of it.

And so they just continue on that direction And and go that way. So that has certainly been one of my focuses in in discussing this now. Before going into some of the biblical texts and and things like that.

Regenerate Membership, Credible Profession, and the Ordinances

How has Did it has any paedo-baptist reviewers Spoken to you about about your work, or is it pretty much just a Baptist so far? So so there were they were attending the church, but as a result of the book left the church.

I Understand. Well, you know, I there have been a few books Fred Malone's work and that have come out over the past number of years.

And and I've always been interested in in looking at the reviews and the responses from my paedo-baptist brethren because the the reformed Baptist perspective is very different than what what they would normally hear say from.

I don't know what you'd call just a regular Baptist because regular Baptists just just take the issue of baptism for granted. And the idea of relating it even to the whole subject of the nature of the Covenant Old Covenant New Covenant.

That's just not normal Baptist writing or Baptist thought. And. So it's been my experience that most of the time When we engage these subjects the the arguments that have been presented for quite some time.

They're not exactly new arguments, but they're not overly well known by even some of our better read paedo-baptist brethren.

Right and and my interest is because just to do you think Alan that possibly.

Part of The reason for that is is due to a general diminishment of Importance in the the minds of many concerning the ordinances themselves. I mean These are just things we do so few people really spend any time.

Considering what the Lord's wisdom was in giving these the church what they're supposed to represent What they're supposed to do for us how they're even relevant to our sanctification or our growth and grace or anything like that.

It seems to me that there's there's just as much of a malaise concerning the supper and what it means as Baptism and what it means as well.

Well, I think you're absolute and hopefully appreciate it much more too.

We can of course take phone calls if folks like to call in eight seven seven seven five three three three four one at least I think the phone lines are still working today. So eight seven seven seven five three three three Four one is the phone number.

Now you focused especially upon the issue of the New Covenant that for me Was likewise the sort of the entrance into this particular area? I had been studying in regards to Roman Catholicism the perfection of the work of Christ and behalf of the elect the nature of the New Covenant Hebrews 8 Hebrews 10 sacrifice intercession all these issues and That is is what made me Realize that when it came down to answering questions like For whom does Christ intercede?

What is the nature nature of his intercession? The consistency of believing in reformed theology. These these things were very important in in seeing making me more convinced of the importance of these issues.

You've mentioned the pastoral background. When you start talking about the issue of of the New Covenant in the Old Covenant What are the first things that you you try to communicate to folks in the book in regards to?

The membership of the New Covenant.

I kind of start the book out by just going into the old test of the nature of just. And if you try to not be linked to try to begin the book with him as you find it.

And so you would. If I if I could play the devil's advocate for just a moment in essence. Obviously what I hear as soon as I start speaking of the nature of the New Covenant I go to Hebrews chapter 8 from the least to the greatest of them God's law written upon their heart.

They all know God etc. Etc. Immediately what I hear is well, you're excluding children from the Covenant. You are you're changing this constant thousands of years long pattern of Children being included in the Covenant.

This is a radical departure a radical change. That's the the terminology That's very frequently used to try to to picture. This is a a radical change. How do you how do you respond to someone who who approaches it from that perspective?

The New Covenant as Radical Fulfillment, Not Radical Change

Well, there are absolutely rockies of the Old Testament. It is radical. We see in that when the New Covenant the major aspect of the newness of the New Cup. But in the New Covenant, I like to use the term not not radical change, but radical fulfillment.

Specifically in that in the incarnation and the the fulfillment of all of the the Old Covenant pictures and types and everything that that fulfillment is obviously going to transcend the shadows that existed before it and given that there were so many in the Old Covenant who were not regenerate and were were hard-hearted and and Did not know the Lord then the idea of the fulfillment of that in regeneration not in in baptism but in regeneration itself being the mechanism by which the person enters into that relationship is is obviously a vitally important point and and would Really touch on I think and I don't I don't want to get totally out of the biblical context here.

But it does strike me in light of certain recent events. I only learned yesterday about what's been going on In regards to the federal vision stuff back in in Florida and Knox Seminary and more controversy about federal vision is and all the rest of stuff It does seem to me that as I just sort of stand back I look at Reformed Baptist circles and and Baptists who may not be specifically Reformed Baptist, but are reformed in their soteriology Movements like that don't gain any traction amongst us.

They have they have no place to grab hold of and yet they seem to just constantly come up over and over again In Pato Baptist circles and one of the reasons being that there is this this ground that once you lose balance at certain points, it just naturally leads you into this form of of Sacramentalism and we've seen that in in history as well.

So I'm not sure what kind of encounters you you've had down there in regards to the federal vision and Douglas Wilson and stuff like that, but It certainly seems to be a recurring problem that Reformed Baptists simply don't seem to have because we have this view of the New Covenant.

Regeneration, Baptist Consistency, and the Credible Profession of Faith

Yeah, we are. Do you require?

Yeah, but that well, you know, it's interesting what you just said about requiring a Regenerate membership. Many people would respond by saying well, how you know, who are you to judge? How are you claiming an infallible ability to judge?

Regeneration. And and for some reason a lot of people think it's a really strong argument to point out that Baptists at times in their history baptize unregenerate people. Apostates people who later proved to be Heretical or unfaithful or or whatever.

Have you ever had that thrown. Thrown your direction saying you're just doing the same thing. We are you. You baptize unregenerate people because you can't look into someone's heart and know whether they're regenerate or not.

A lot.

But there's a huge difference between Baptizing and infant has made no profession of faith. There's no indicator. You don't have that and people that are not true the evidence that we see Baptizing an infant and saying once we do not.

It was interesting in the debate that I did with with Bill Shishko. One of the points that I emphasized many times was that as an elder and Reformed Baptist Church I am consistent in seeking to protect both of the ordinances that is I Seek a credible profession of faith before Baptism and I seek a credible profession of faith before partaking of the Lord's Supper and I know that Bill Shishko likewise requires the credible profession of faith before the Lord's Supper, but not before baptism and Then when I debated Greg Strawbridge in the subject my understanding is that he is a paedo-communist.

So that particular argument doesn't hold there because he's not looking for a Credible profession of faith before either of of the ordinances and then of course you can let the Presbyterians are Communion and we can we can just sit back and go.

Hey, you're using our arguments there. Indeed now rich, I don't think I have ever tried to have one person on I Have so I can just simply hit air and we're gonna everything's gonna work. You you're you're gonna promise this to me with the the level of certainty That we have in baptizing believers.

You're good. I got you covered. You got me covered. All right, here we go. All right, Alan, we are going to start taking some of our phone callers here. Please let us know if you have any difficulty Hearing them and we will work on it from there.

And if all of a sudden you're listening to dial tone, it's Rich's fault not mine. All right, let's let's talk with Dave in Phoenix. I Dave I Can barely hear you Dave? Thank you. I've still got Alan. I still got you don't.

I can hear you can hear him, but I cannot. Oh, that's fascinating. There he is. Now yes, we can hear you now rich rich has this really Embarrassed grin on his face. He reached up hit one button and now everyone can hear you.

So go ahead. Go ahead.

Yes, I am a believer by the way, okay, I guess the question that I wanted to ask and and I know doc Dr. White is brought this up in the past, but maybe you know your research. Maybe you can enlighten us as well.

I'm just wondering. What do you believe or have you been able to find out or research? What what. The Primary basis of the the pedo Baptist argument is is it like an emotional? Argument or is it something else?

I mean is it because it's like, you know, how can you deny a nice? You know little neat little cute cuddly infant baptism, you know.

Is that is that the argument that that you seem to be finding or is it something else and he issue? Once you answer that question, then you solve the whole issue. Well, do we bad talk and speak to this probably with.

What do you do with Fabian with the guilt of a written? We?

Well, just just briefly. I mean historically there's no question that the practice develops out of a rising formalization of sacramentology and and a belief of an efficacy and sacraments that I would certainly challenge on a biblical level to my knowledge and I've made the statement number of times and no one's Ever challenged me on it.

I've seen a lot of Uncomfortable looking faces, but to my knowledge the first person to believe In John Calvin's doctrine of baptism was John Calvin. In other words while there was a lot of infant baptism prior to the days of John Calvin, I don't know of anyone who actually developed his Covenantal concept of Infant baptism and connected it all the way that he did.

That doesn't make it wrong, but it does I think Shine some light on the historical situation and certainly from my viewpoint when you look at what happened was wingling when you look at what happened with Luther both of them played with the idea of the abandonment of infant baptism and Luther recognized that a free church a church made up of professing believers Would be the only way you could ever have a pure church a church actually reflected the glory of Christ and yet it was the Political situation of the day it was the princes who would not allow this to happen.

That was vitally important in the early development of the schism between Pato Baptist and Credo Baptist on this particular subject and unfortunately The level of emotion that was developed at that time has not dissipated in certain circles to be to be certain.

And that's why one of the reasons I asked one of the earlier questions about whether you know we really get much of a hearing from a lot of our Pato Baptist brethren because In my experience even some of the best-read have not seriously considered some of the the covenantal arguments For a credo Baptist position, but finally Dave there is I think I think this is a fair observation.

I know people can disagree fine, but if you'll just you know put the emotions on hold just a moment I think there is more to be said about a Pato Baptist having an Emotional investment in the examination of the arguments than a credo Baptist for the simple reason the very first debate I did on this back in I think 1995 as I recall at the end of the debate One of the primary arguments presented by the other side and this was not just simply someone that's not well known.

This was against dr. Robert Strimple of Westminster Seminary and Gary Johnson both well-known Pato Baptist authors one of the primary arguments that was offered was what am I supposed to say to my children when they come home and ask if they're Christians and that to me was illustrative of the fact that Especially once someone has baptized their own children in this in this in this manner.

There is a and there's an emotional Attachment and and Investment there and I think sometimes that I have seen it enter into whether a person was even willing to consider the Possibilities that that position was wrong, but that's just been my my personal experience.

So, okay, Dave. All righty. Thank you very much, sir Thank you. God bless. Bye. Bye. All right, let's go to Greg hi Greg, how are you doing doing? All right, dr. What how are you doing? Good good.

It sounds like I've called in the middle of a topic and I certainly don't want to just rail you guys. I had a question about Vatican to and Trent but just want to say thank you for your your ministry and how much God has used it for me and my ministry and Don't want to disrobe the topic, but thank you very much.

Okay.

Well, why don't you throw it out there real quick and maybe I can tie it in with baptism. Let's see. Let's see. Let's see how far I can go here.

Okay in three steps or left. Kevin Bacon to. My question was I deal with a lot of Catholics that are trying to convince me and can tell me the difference that how Vatican to changed Trent and There's Trent Catholicism.

There's Vatican to Catholicism, right? And I was just wondering if you could give me some bullet points on Some of that refuting that and saying there's there's real no distinction. And I know you know, it comes down to this statement that they've never done away with.

If you say you're justified by faith alone, then you're anathemon, right?

Well, let me in fact, let me start off by by attaching it to baptism rather quickly. And that is clearly The the the council fathers at Trent Had a much stricter view of baptism and its absolute necessity for salvation than then Vatican to obviously did especially in light of Post Vatican to documents talking about the Muslims worshiping those same true God and yet obviously they haven't experienced baptism.

And there's been a massive expansion of baptism of desire baptism of blood all these types of things to try to fit Rome's doctrine of baptism into the the growing inclusivistic and almost universalistic Soteriology of many in the leadership of the Roman Church, but just real real quickly.

And Alan, please give me just a moment here and we'll get right back to you just real quickly obviously. There are modern Roman Catholics who are embarrassed by Trent there are modern Roman Catholics in leadership of the Roman Catholic Church that are embarrassed by Trent and The problem is that the entire Authority structure upon which Vatican to would rest Would be dependent upon the infallibility of those that came before it specifically with Trent.

So it's it's like they want to have their cake and eat it, too. They want to be able to say oh well We can change we can abandon the anathemas of Trent and we can we can attribute ignorance to the council fathers of Trent.

So that what they anathematized really doesn't have anything to do with Protestants today bla bla bla bla bla. But the problem is once you take those steps upon what basis are we to give any? Kind of credence or authority to what Vatican to has to say anyways.

I mean you almost have to take a higher view of the church that it's now in essence no longer even possible to Examine the church historically and to see any kind of consistency in its teaching and so it really depends on the individual.

You're talking to you're not going to run into this kind of thing in really strongly Roman Catholic countries. But but in a place like like we live in United States. You're gonna find people who are cafeteria Catholics.

John Paul II spoke against that in 1984 when he came to Los Angeles. Spoke against cafeteria style Catholicism where you pick and choose what you want to believe what you don't want to believe and that is very popular today, and you do get all sorts of mixed signals out of out of Rome today even from Ratzinger and.

So you have to find out where the person you're talking to is coming from and if and if they are still using the old Well soul scriptura isn't biblical come to Rome and get God's guidance a type of arguments.

They really have a basis to be saying the things are saying to you about Vatican to changing all that. So if they're gonna be consistent, they're gonna have to have to say yes Trent was was speaking God's truth and that truth does not change.

And then they have to explain what in the world Vatican to was talking about when it when it does try to Say on one hand we reaffirm everything Trent says, but then try to sort of change the context. Of which Trent was originally speaking.

If they're if they're not using that kind of argumentation, then what are they? What do they really have to offer to you? Anyways, they basically have little more than man's opinions, right?

Yeah, the interesting thing is the whole argument. Really we really started dealing with anonymous Christianity and Rahner and then saying You coming. You can imagine how it's all done, but I certainly don't.

Israel the topic. Okay guys, but I thank you very much.

No, but I thank you Greg. Thank you very much. Let's go to Leanne in Georgia. Hi Leanne. Yes, how you doing, I'm all right, how are you doctor doing good. I like you. I like you're at your non accent.

Well, that's an accent from someplace you don't know where it's from but certainly not from Georgia, okay. Okay.

Anyway. My question was about fellowship and do you think that a credo Baptist and a pedo Baptist can have full and meaningful fellowship? With that divide or is that just something that is going to be in the way all the time?

Fellowship Between Credo Baptists and Paedo Baptists

Okay Alan.

Well, I think we absolutely can. We are both member a yearly or white can be enticed to come down to it. But we have the unity that we haven't cleared the unity that that certainly has been my experience.

When you ask Leanne a full fellowship if you mean by that including Ecclesiastical fellowship in the sense of You know, I could not in good conscience be an elder in a Presbyterian Church. And I don't think any Presbyterian Church worth its salt would have me as an elder and nor should they.

Because we're honest about this it's a it's a deeply held conviction. It's not just a difference of opinion. But at the same time I can honestly tell you that in many areas I have a closer fellowship with my Presbyterian brothers than I do with some of my Baptist brothers Who are just so? dogmatic in denying the sovereignty of God and salvation and and Attacking the doctrines of grace, so in many ways in standing in defense of justification and standing against Rome Catholicism for Sola Fide and Sola Scriptura.

It's been my Presbyterian brothers who generally have more of a Historical perspective on things who have stood most close by me in in those contexts. And so, you know, I think we need to be open about our differences.

But I don't think this is something that separates us on the issue of the gospel. And that's why I was very appreciative of the fact that when I debated Bill Shishko on this subject the night before I preached at his church and I've preached at his church a number of times and and I would certainly have no problem whatsoever with Bill Shishko preaching at my church.

Because I know that you know, he's like I get up there and preach on baptism. You know neither would I preach on baptism at his but but to fill the pulpit and to To minister the Word of God in in those situations.

We've that would be very very wonderful thing to have happen and I can think of certain Baptists that I could not invite into my pulpit simply because their Soteriology is so shallow and so unbiblical.

So you really have to look at those issues and Make the determination on the basis of that kind of that kind of thing. Okay, okay. Thank you. Oh, thank you very much. All right, I'll send you a tambourine for Christmas.

Thank you. I Just figured that one out, but that one's caught me from by surprise, but don't worry about that Alan. We're not gonna be sending you any tambourines. It's it's an inside joke there, but I'd actually never heard this person speak before and now I realized that I've been offending her all along by doing some of my accents But oh, well, we go on with the Scott in Sioux City, Iowa.

Hermeneutics, Acts 2, and How the New Covenant Is Read

Hi Scott. How you doing doing well. Keeping keeping warm up here. Yeah. Well, you know, we don't have to worry about that down. In fact, I would imagine when I was in Is Nashville's weather similar to Oklahoma City's weather is Oklahoma City cooler.

Alan?

Well, you know, I'm not exactly sure but we just kind of gone through an ice storm that just I mean mother.

Not much global warming going on. What can we do for you Scott. Well, I go to Dork College here at the Christian reformed College and I go to a Christian reformed Church and I just wrote a paper on the subject see when I'm when I'm looking at this is will consistently interpret the Old Covenant by the new except on baptism.

What is. And I haven't really heard any justification for that shift in hermeneutic. Have you did you have to deal with it in your book?

The book that I first but you don't want to read on the the revenue in the New Testament and. It's when you do that. I know Scott that's in almost every book that I've read.

Each author comes up with a different way of putting it. I remember the discussion in one of the first books are in on this topic of acts to that said that said Pato Baptist interpreters and They look at acts 238 and 39.

Are so intent upon hearing the Old Covenant Drumbeat that they miss the New Covenant fulfillment and that certainly has been my I think it's that's an honestly very fair criticism that I can make of my of my Pato Baptist brethren is that when they look at Acts chapter 2 and they quote the text the promises to you and to your children.

They stop they stop there. They stop there so many times and almost almost every single one of them. And to all who are far off as may as the Lord our God should call only is a is a rarely referenced addendum.

But in the vast majority of their uses of that text it stops right there. That's that's the very. They would never allow that when teaching on any other subject on the resurrection justification anything.

They would never allow that kind of breaking up of a clear Singular group there with a delimiter at the end. That is as many as the Lord our God should call here is election. Here is this this it's right there in front of us, but when it comes to this one subject, that's where The difference lies and and I mentioned in the debate with Bill Shishko, I said look you as the audience Here's your job which one of us remains consistent in our home in our hermeneutical methodology.

That's the only way that this can be judged and that's what I I do appreciate. I think we are Modeling anyway, how this these issues should be addressed is that we are coming to the Word of God we're not trying to go to some external source not trying to Come up with some new revelation or new scriptures.

I think we're going to the scriptures and we're saying look we need to be consistent in how we handle the Word of God and I think it's the only way that it can be handled and The only way that someone would say yeah, well, but it hasn't handled it has it.

Well is that's assuming that it is God's intention in this life for us all to have an absolute unanimity of opinion on every single little thing and until Christ returns and we are perfected there are going to be differences and unfortunately This is one of them that means each generation Has to go back over these things each generation has to struggle through these things.

We can't just simply sit back and go and well You know the smart guys in the last generation couldn't come up with an answer. So we don't need to we don't even need to think about anymore. That's the danger.

I think that sometimes we face Alrighty, all right. All right. Thank you very much for your call Scott. Thank you both. All right. God bless. 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 just a few minutes left on the program.

Let's talk with Joshua, we're getting everybody down south except for Iowa Gulfport, Mississippi and Because Leanne complained I will not say Gulfport, Mississippi. I will I will say Gulfport, Mississippi and talk with Joshua.

Hi, Joshua. Hey, that's right. Hey, you don't sound like you're from Gulfport, Mississippi. And Arizonans don't have accents because everybody hears from someplace else. So they all just sort of got mixed together and got washed out.

All right. Yes, sir. My question is kind of along the same lines as a previous one. I was talking with a Related to the and what extent Israel The members under the Old Covenant, right we're really his and Where exactly do that delineate separation between the New Covenant and Old Covenant in that respect?

The New Covenant, Apostasy, and the Limits of External Membership

Yeah, in fact, let me put it this way. One of the arguments is that's thrown at me and in light of what Joshua is saying is look. The Old Covenant had unregenerate people in it and the New Covenant does too.

It just has a lesser percentage.

Well that I have great problem the new heart at least they shouldn't remember. And isn't that really I think one of the key issues.

In answer to Joshua's question is that we make a very clear distinction between external church membership and that of the New Covenant.

Yes, absolutely. And because every church or like Judah even the ones in Matthew 7 never knew you right? It's not that he knew them and then they were. I don't think Christ would say that of a member of his Covenant.

Well, no, that was in his body.

Exactly and I know that but one of the questions I keep asking is if Jesus is the mediator of the New Covenant. The New Covenant is the covenant in his blood and if he is the mediator of that New Covenant.

Then what does he mediate to those who are in that New Covenant, but are not regenerate? He could only mediate wrath to them and the whole idea of Jesus mediating wrath to members of the New Covenant.

That is in his blood, which is propitiatory. The whole thing comes apart. Well, his blood will fail.

Exactly will fail. The Covenant is no better than the Old Covenant and that's where and I think our pale Baptist brother indeed.

Joshua, thank you very much for your phone call. Thanks, Joshua. I appreciate that. God bless. Bye. Bye. Yeah, that that is I think the the primary issue for me. Anyways, is that if the New Covenant is the covenant in his blood and as Reformed believers?

We believe that Christ gave his blood Purposefully not to fail but to succeed in redeeming all of those the father has given to him the idea then that we would purposefully give a covenant sign To an individual who we know to be an unbeliever at this point who has not professed faith in Christ.

And even then I've had people say well, you you know You got John the Baptist and and you know He was regenerate in the womb because he responded to the you know, you just don't know but but they'd have to agree that that in general that that the general rule is that God does not regenerate children as Infants but as he does so through faith through the Proclamation of the Word of God the working of the Holy Spirit bringing about regeneration.