Tom Buck Gives an Update from the SBC then James Responds to the Recent Issues from the IM Guys

Yeah, I'm sitting okay. Try to be really quiet here as you're gonna hear the music come up here and greetings.

Southern Baptist Convention Update and the Controversy Over Complementarianism

Welcome to the dividing line. My name is James White coming to you from the Master's Seminary in South. Right now and what we are attempting to do. I'm not sure if it's gonna work real well, but we're gonna give it a shot is of course the Southern Baptist Convention is going on right now and We sent our super secret representative.

No, I'm not gonna I'm not gonna ruin Tom's reputation by saying that but Pastor Tom Buck Lindale, Texas is one of the messengers to the conference the convention and So he's on Skype as I am on Skype.

All of this could fall apart at any second. Which is what some people are saying about the Southern Baptist Convention too, but that's a whole other issue. So Brother Tom You're outside isn't it a tad bit warm in Dallas.

It is a tad bit warm, but I'm sitting outside. I had to find a place outside because the convention is pretty much over and found a place where I could sit and It's a little bit humid, but I'll survive.

It's so it's pretty much what way inside. Pardon me. It's pretty much over as in finished or over.

Well, the meeting is over and the humidity outside is is better than it was on the inside, okay. All right. I I got you. So.

I've been pretty much out of it. I've been teaching here at the Master's Seminary for the past couple days and getting up uber early in the morning and So I'm I'm not Up on everything, but I did see a bunch of flurry of this resolution.

Goes down in flames and that resolution is passed and all sorts of stuff like that. So I imagine you're keeping track of all that stuff. So What what happened? Did they get rid of you?

Well, no, they didn't get rid of me though right before right after I left or right before I was leaving. I guess they were finishing something up and. Someone apparently got escorted out by the Dallas police.

The report is on Twitter. That the individual was asking questions that and eat a member of the URL see found threatening. So they asked the police to escort that messenger out of the building, but it was not me.

So just so everybody knows that was not me. It wasn't me either. I didn't keep. I didn't really keep up much with all of the resolutions. It's the most amount of resolutions that I remember seeing in a long long time.

They had a resolution on another another resolution on racial reconciliation. That was targeting the curse of ham. Which I have never heard that taught in any Southern Baptist Church that I've ever been in supposedly.

Apparently, dr. Aiken who is president of Southeastern along with the Dr. Dwight McKissick who is a pastor in Fort Worth? And a couple of other authors. I'm not aware with that four of them offered that authored that.

They believe because this is what they wrote that many Southern Baptist churches. Have taught the curse of ham now you grew up in the Southern Baptist Church or at least had some experience. Do you ever remember the curse of ham being taught?

No, no, no I've not met one. I've asked more than a dozen guys who were my age 51 or older guys like yourself and. And and none of them but you're in much better shape than I know that. So we'll go ahead get that out of the way, but none of them have ever heard any pastors teaching that.

So I Was a little bit concerned, you know in this that we're passing a resolution. That everybody would say the curse of ham is horrific. It's important teaching and now the media is going to think. I assume that this is was common teaching in Southern Baptist Church.

It's not that long ago.

Hmm, okay, so Obviously JD Greer is the president, correct? And What was the what was the story with that? What were the dynamics of that?

It was really interesting because when I got there guys were Some guys were panicking to some degree or another coming to me saying hey, you've got to make sure you vote for JD. They knew that I had issues with JD Greer regarding his What I believe to be weak positions on complementarity.

And so there was. There was a sense of panic that he might not win. We've got to get everybody's vote. He ended up winning. Close to 70 to 30 What is his position on complementarianism. Who was the other candidate, I'm sorry, I can him him Phil.

Okay. Yes a former president of Southwestern, but he's been he's been out of the out of the loop for some time. The traditionalists Dusted him off and and brought him out and propped him up. It was almost like a weekend at Bernie's.

That clips gonna end up on YouTube somewhere. I don't care. I have nothing left to lose.

Okay, so but what was the what was the dynamic theologically and position wise between the two.

Well, the the the traditionalist had put him forward now. This was this doesn't mean that everybody that voted for him. Phil was that way. But the traditionalist put him for because I had deep concerns about JD Greer.

I did not support J. But they put him field forward as an answer to JD Greer being the Calvinist and. But but there were many people that weren't. I mean, obviously 70 voted for him. So many of them weren't count Calvinist Ken Witten who nominated JD Greer.

He's not a Calvinist as far as I'm aware. He's certainly not one overtly because I'm not aware of it and JD Greer is an evangelist and a missions minded guy and so forth and so on. So it was. It was a shot that didn't need to be taken.

He's he's not an ab a Guy that's constantly pushing Calvinism. Greer isn't. But that was the concern because he is a guy.

Okay, and so the traditionalist you mean like the Layton flowers wing of people.

Louisiana was involved and he is very strong against anything that had even smells Calvinistic so I would say he's you know, he wouldn't even want tulips planted in his garden. So Okay I'm sorry. I have had a little sleep.

So I might be a little punch.

Well, I don't know what would be keeping you all up late at night but so oh. You've been driving back and forth to Lindale, you know.

Jean client squirrels been staying with me and so In order to you know, help a couple of guys out. They've stayed with me and we drive back and forth.

That's a very long drive.

Well, you've done it. So, you know.

Yes, I have. So now I know why you're not sleeping. Okay. So anyway, so what's your take? What's um,.

Were you disappointed that Beth Moore wasn't made president? Yeah. I mean I shed many tears over that. I Was expecting at any moment for her to be nominated. At some level in fact when they made an announcement that they were going to make a major change in the Baptist News Baptist Press was going to be making an announcement.

It ended up being pence. I thought it was going to be. Something along the lines of Beth Moore potentially that they were announcing. So While I was fearful it was Beth Moore and when I found that it wasn't I was happy.

But then another crowd was mortified that that pence vice president pence was coming.

And so were you there for that I was. How'd that go? I.

Mean, I think that you know, it's it's one of those things where that I was. I Wouldn't have chosen to do it because I you know, it becomes what you know. It will a mini political in my and I'm political rally.

To one degree or another but he said some very important or very good things that I would agree with. I think we all would agree with regarding abortion a variety of things but you know whenever you have a political person speak and they begin to as Trump is it's it's going to be a difficult thing in a in a religious setting.

So that there were two sets of people people that were ecstatic by everything He said and then there were people that were just angry and had their arms crossed and there was a guy that was booing him.

Behind me. Oh, really? Yeah Wow was mentioned boo, that's what it was weird. But anyway.

Okay, all right, so. What about on on the resolutions front? Was there anything significant? I mean, obviously everyone is coming into this thing with Southwestern and Paige Patterson and the Pressler trial and all this stuff front and center.

Was it was it dealt with was it mentioned what happened? Oh, it absolutely was.

In fact, the resolutions became secondary because in fact, you know in the past it's like the past what two years the Confederate flag to racism resolution a to disinvite Pence so that became front and center as soon as they announced he was coming.

That became a big issue. And and so motion was made he got defeated. It's defeated the next more next day. Became front and center. The second issue front and center was the issue of women. And therefore it became a predominant discussion report there was That asked the question about the issue of women and the issue of abuse even though it was answered To ask the question about it.

I got part of that.

Unfortunately, you're breaking up really badly right now. I'm not sure if it's just the location or if it's buffering or something like that. But now it seems to have caught back up. But it seems to be going back and forth a little bit.

Is there going to be? What what's as we look back other than Pence. What's What's gonna be the takeaway? I mean From your from your perspective, is it more? Stuff that's still got to be dealt with in the future.

Or is this could be remembered as The convention that meaningfully dealt with things or what?

No, I think I think that there's a huge question mark From as I leave here and I think this is true with a lot of other guys of where is the convention going to go? particularly regarding regarding Complementarianism, there's no doubt in my mind about that whether Beth Moore's presented forward or someone else.

I was very grateful for dr. Moller's response and that's where I was going when I think it buffered. Dr. Moller was asked a question specifically and He gave a wonderful answer. He is clearly holding strong to what I believe we would both hold to regarding complementarianism.

He made it clear that when he came to the School of Theology that every person that taught in the School of Theology needed to Be someone who was qualified to be a pastor and therefore that they will never have a woman teach in that role.

He Said that explicit. Hmm. I think that's at the shrin of a lot of Pete. Yeah. Who had read my arm? And ism that were at Josh bite. He came up to me and he appreciated my Exegetical work and that he believed that because I'm a biblicist Ten years. I will be egalitarian.

So.

Okay, so so who who was it that said that to you because we missed that a.

Wade Burleson was talking with me. Okay, and he said that because I am such a strong biblicist that he is sure that in ten years. I'll be an egalitarian. Okay, so.

What's pigging backing on what here is it? Is it the ethnic? racial reconciliation Movement that's kicked open the door and egalitarianism is running in behind it. Or is it the other way around or did they come to the door at the same time or because.

Was any of this super front and center last year. Has it been knocking on the door a little bit each year or what? No, it came out of the blue for me.

That's why I was so shocked when when people were talking that way so quickly. So I do think it is I you know, I think it's it's the next car in the train and so. They're using the same language Of oppression and so forth and so on that you find within the racial discussion but I will say that There are guys who who are in the convention who felt strongly about social justice and the race issue.

By into the compliment the egalitarian arguments or soft complementarianism, whatever you want to call it. So not everybody's follow following in line, but a good majority of the people are falling in line.

Where? They move the next level with this. Hmm. So.

Yeah, you you were buffering a little bit too but I was able to follow most of what you were saying as far as. Yet, you know the exact relationship between these two movements. I was just surprised to see the egalitarian complementarian issue Coming in so quickly.

And Was it was it just sort of taking advantage of the page Patterson situation or. Was that almost you know, they were looking for something and found it in.

Digging through stuff with the page Patterson. Well, I missed a lot of your question. I'm sorry You were buffering at the time. Did you say where you said something about taking advantage? Are you saying that were they are you asking whether I believe this was an Opportunistic thing for them as they saw it an open door with what happened with page.

Yeah, pretty much. Yes. That's exactly what I would that's exactly what I think now. Let me clarify so the people know with page are not going there but I Believe that those who want to push the convention towards an egalitarian position Have seen this as an open door and they are kicking that door as hard as a pin.

Yeah, I only got a part of that too. You know rich what we might need to do here. Is it maybe if Tom just goes to audio only? The as he's on a cell phone, so I think that's where the the stuff is going so maybe if If Tom could go to that we could just be stuck with me.

Maybe he'll be able to hear me better and I'll be able to hear him better. I'm not I'm not sure but Nothing personal there Tom, I mean, I think most people gotta look at you than me anyways, but It's the bandwidth issue.

And since I'm I'm currently I'm not sure if you do, you know where I am right now Tom. I.

Believe I do know where you are. I think you are in one of the most Wonderful places on earth which would be dr. MacArthur's office. Is that correct?

This is at the at the seminary and at the door says John MacArthur. They tell me he almost never uses it. But as I'm looking around there all these rare Bibles in in in cases all around me, so yeah, it's a Nice quiet place to be but it's a pretty snazzy I mean this huge thing up on the wall about the roots the King James Bible, which I find somewhat ironic Given who's doing the program here.

But yes, that's that's where I am at the moment. So So I have a nice strong wireless connection here, so maybe that's that's so what I had asked was. And you seem to indicate that yes, there was a that you do feel there was a hey We have an opportunity type thing here now did was was Patterson even at the meeting.

No, it's first time in 60 years. Wow.

Wow, that's a change.

It was there's no doubt that it was a felt change. I didn't see there were Southwestern people there, but they're not the same ones that I normally see. I think they were probably there but they weren't more prominent.

And what. Let me go back to say what. Repeat what I said earlier. So it's clear. I don't believe that everybody that was concerned with what Paige Patterson happened with Paige Patterson is. We all were concerned about that.

We're all concerned about the value of women. And therefore it's not everybody that's concerned is trying to move towards egalitarianism. But there is a crack in the door and they're kicking that door as hard as they can to knock it down and it's evident.

The Threat of a Shift Toward Egalitarianism in the SBC

Hmm, so who's gonna. Who's gonna lead the? Lead the resistance.

Well, I Don't know because I know this and I want to be very careful about how I say this, but I do know that There is a very threatening environment within the SBC. That if you speak out on this and you're any one of importance, it's a dangerous environment right now.

Yeah, I know that firsthand, but You know, the thing is with me. They don't have anything that I want and they don't I don't have anything they can take from me, right? But that's not true of everybody that is involved in this.

That's right.

Yeah, that is something that is extremely troubling the the evidence that has been brought forward on a number of fronts. That I've heard both publicly and privately. Where if you dare engage the the subject and you are at all involved with any of the Southern Baptist entities.

You know, the Eleventh Commandment comes into full force and you are you are threatened immediately. So, yeah, that's that's not a good a good environment for meaningful debate to be taking to be taking place.

No choice about it. But is it does it only it doesn't. Normally these things only go one direction. Is it only going one direction? I mean Is it also going the other direction to where the people promoting this stuff are getting shut down?

It doesn't sound like it.

No, of course, it's not and Let's let's just be honest, you know JD Greer's president and I respect him for many many things. But this is one area that deeply concerns me. He has been very vocal and open about his view on the role of women and The only in his own writing in 2015.

He's published from his church. His church has put up on their website That the only thing that they think a woman cannot do is teach and this is a quote in an elder like way.

So. Mm-hmm. So just right go ahead. So in the context of the the stated worship services of the church.

Correct, although he would even allow a woman to speak and even He said is a it's a very fine line of defining what the sermon is. So he says if he has a woman like he did a few years ago had at least this Fitzpatrick come and speak.

He makes sure to get up at the end to do the final application. So everybody and and kind of wrap it all together so people know that he's the elder and she's not so that's what he means. By an elder like way he never wants to confuse The sermon being given by a woman when it really ought to be that L.

It's very calm convoluted to be honest with you. It's not even walking a tightrope to me. I think he just might as well just go the whole way but He he believes that teaching and Authority that that the the word for authority there is modifying teaching now.

We both know that's not Exegetically possible. It's not the grant agreement grammatically possible in first Timothy 212. It's not about teaching in a way. That's authoritative. It's two separate things.

So but he says that's not he sees it that it's an elder like way. That's how he views the word authority in first Timothy 212.

Racial Reconciliation, Social Justice, and the “Curse of Ham” Resolution

Okay, so did the did the resolution on racial reconciliation pass. Is there was there anything new in it.

Well, I mean the only thing that was new was the curse of him and and The fact that they wanted to inject that the ERL see had celebrated Martin Luther King's 50 year anniversary of his death and So they inserted that.

So we have resolved As a convention to despise a teaching that we already abhorred and never knew was even being taught.

Yes, well now I heard something Robert Gagnon on Facebook was talking about a resolution that I guess didn't pass about.

Graciousness in Social media. What was that about? Well, see I missed that when I thought it did pass. So I'm I know I wasn't in there when that occurred. Particular one. I thought it did pass. It it was.

I did, you know it. I figured it it would. I'm glad it didn't. Based on what this wording was but We certainly should be gracious in social media, but it just it's this continued. Wanting to shut us down to have any level of opposition.

So yeah, well, that's. That's how he had interpreted it and and I just didn't know if that was a inaccurate interpretation or I mean. Was that derived from who brought it up or or just I?

Had no idea. I think it's just the language of it. The language was clear that it was. You know basically saying if you you know, if you create if you critique in any way or criticize. It's going to be viewed as as Attacking your brother and sister in Christ and all of these type of things.

So, you know, I'm very thankful that it was defeated. If it was. I didn't hear that it was. But but it's just another. It follows right along with all the other stuff that opposition must be silenced.

I Don't. Here's what I understand. I hear the word dialogue all the time. I haven't experienced it in a long time.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's something in that actual word that has to I Believe me I Had to defend that in regards to my encounter with yasir Qadhi that it it takes takes two to have a dialogue everything else is called a monologue and Yeah, I yeah, we need we need to have more dialogues.

So shut up. Seems to be.

The thing is is is that in this social media thing? They talk about the shaming shaming is allowed and even last night there was a comment that was made by Matt Chandler and he makes the comment that If people if people want to call me a Social Marxist let him call me that I'll just embrace it.

I don't care. And I mean it's and then everybody applauds it's just there's just constantly a Dismissal of even engaging in in any level of argumentation that disagrees with them. They mock it they shun it and they shut you down and I think that's what the social media thing was trying to do as well.

It's wanting to remove all opposition as much as possible.

The Role of Women, Elder-Like Teaching, and the Meaning of Complementarianism

So were these various groups very prevalent, they're very easily seen as far as the Racial reconciliation stuff or is that just sort of an undertone or what?

It's all women this time all the issue of women. Oh women's rally and Wade Burleson spoke at the women's rally. He had written an article a day or two before that. And he had said these are the type of things they're saying and he wouldn't mind me saying this because he told me.

To my face. This is why he believes were an article on it. He said that he believes that when you have a church without women in power is the same thing as having a homosexual marriage. Because it's not comp.

It's not complimentary. So he's defining compliment. If you're going to have complementarity you must Have equal power with men and women. They must share the same same Structures of power. Wow so I.

Would ask how he interprets the qualifications Sections in first Timothy and Titus, but I'm not sure that that that's really where this is coming from. Anyways.

No, I don't think so. Yeah, I think there's an agenda. Oh.

Yeah, definitely. Definitely. So Peer into your crystal ball brother. Because I was only to keep you about half an hour. Peer into your crystal ball. Take a take a wild guess what?

SBC 2019 is going to look like well, I think that 2019 will be more Orchestrated and structured and everything will be planned out more than it ever has been before and There will this is my opinion. I think that there will be Less.

Here's the funny thing. They talk about diversity. But there will be less diversity in opinions about this than there ever was. It'll be one opinion that will be moving forward. I honestly believe That unless certain individuals not I believe dr. Moller's one who holds strong to Complementary in view.

I think that it's very possible and probably likely that by 2020 We will have a female President elected now. People see that as crazy talk, but that's my feeling. If things continue in the path that they're going I don't see how it doesn't go to that.

Hmm and What about real quickly?

Obviously, I think there's a president pro-tem at Southwestern right now, right? Yes. So do you see? The final selection there as being an indication of fundamental changes in the power structure in the SPC I.

Don't know dr. B. I wanted to reserve and be cautious there. Dr. Beeman Bingham gave a very good speech. One of the things that was interesting that he said Was that Southwestern is not going to be in the future defined by what we're against in small sections of the Southern Baptist Convention.

Now I saw that as a signal of we're not going to be anti-calvinistic anymore. I could be wrong. But he said that very and and Jean and I both looked at each other when he said it and said hmm. That's a change.

Yeah, it certainly has been. Seeing itself as being the the bastion of traditional Traditionalism so I want to reserve judgment on that. I want to give dr. Bingham the time as the interim and and and not make any predictions regarding that.

I felt his speech was really good. I felt he was well-balanced. And how he dealt with the issue of we're going to protect women and we're going to make sure that that's Handled rightly and that we address this situation rightly.

But we're not going to change with our our beliefs on the Word of God and we're going to stand strong on those streets. So I felt he I felt his presentation was was good as well. So I want to give him the bin for the doubt.

But if there is a major shift You Know it does strike me that there there must be a tremendous amount of Political capital going into the determination of where Southwestern goes from here. Oh.

No doubt about that. So at the end of the day, I will say this. Yes, whoever becomes president of Southwestern will be a Flare Shot into the air that is going to signal to us where the convention is going if they're going in the direction.

I'm thinking so it I Think that's something we need to keep our eye on for sure. Okay. All right.

All right. Well Tom, thank you very very much. We were able to hear you much better once we once we uncomplicated the the stream there, so that was probably a good idea, but thank you for your report and I hate to tell you but I'm headed your direction in a couple days.

So we'll see you later.

Okay, I appreciate you having me on. Hopefully it was helpful. All right. It was thank you. All right. We'll see you. Bye. Bye. I bless.

All right. Well, it just sort of put me back on the screen. So I'm hoping that means we're still connected. I told I could sit here for the next half hour talking myself for all I know I would hope that rich would text me or something.

But sometimes I think you would probably just let me just go on just Make me feel better or something like that. I don't know. I don't know like looking at At myself, especially with these the angle and stuff like that.

You just look really weird on these computer things, but I just look weird or like so let's let's shift Shift our attention for the last part of the program here. Obviously, I would rather Do this and we'll do this when I have opportunity.

I don't get back. Well, I'm home for three hours between when I get back and when I have to head for the airport for for Dallas, but Get back middle next week. So hopefully like on Thursday Probably Thursday.

We'll try to do a dividing line try to make something work there. But It would be easier to do this in the context of studio and having citations to deal with but instead I'll just have to make some rather basic comments and Clarifications in light of some of the stuff that's gone on over the past couple of days.

People have Probably seen that there was a Social media exchange fairly brief Between myself and David Wood and as It seemed to me that David was becoming more and more agitated. I said, hey, you know Yeah, why don't you take a deep breath?

Let's uh, you know, let's let's not do this here and and It kept going for for quite some time unfortunately, and of course what that does is then you get other people piling into the conversation who are even less self-controlled than the original people who started the whole thing and It just seems like like Twitter Facebook the comment sections that kind of thing is just designed to bring out the worst in us when it comes to conversations and things like that.

And you know, it was it was bothersome for me to see discussions of my alleged followers as if I have this legion of followers that I say go get such-and-such a person they go get such-and-such process not the case, of course, and Yeah, I I don't respond by saying well your followers do this the other thing or woods followers or shaman Ian's or whatever.

I'm old-school and you're accountable for what you say. Not what other people who like you say. But that's as I said old-school I very frequently get it held accountable for what people I don't even know don't even know who they're referring to.

Say, but well if they're on your side, then you're accountable for them. Today in today's edition of islamicized me which I think is getting right toward the end. There Was obviously a change we know it was a change because the video that was used and inserted into this particular episode was from my response to islamicized me, so Obviously, this was not what was intended But was put in and for what reason I I don't know.

It could be an olive branch it could be taken the other way I mean in light of the fact that When I logged into Facebook this morning, there was a list, you know, yay. Yay tall of Articles that I had been tagged in by Sam Shamoon attacking me digging up stuff from from the past and Recycling all sorts of stuff that's been refuted and dealt with and in in in years gone by It if it was meant as any type of Positive thing it doesn't represent everybody.

There are different perspectives obviously amongst the the gang That is producing the videos and then Was either yesterday or day before yesterday Robert Spencer started getting involved and I'm still trying to process his assertion.

He'd be willing to debate me on the gospel this is a man that as far as I can I've never heard the man do exegesis of anything as far as I'd I have no knowledge of of Anything that he's done whatsoever from a theological perspective The biblical exegesis gospel teaching books on the sub nothing so so for someone to say I'll I'll debate white on on on the gospel, it's like I Had to even in the little bit of communication.

We had an email. I forget when it was I guess it was last year 2016 2017 somewhere around there I Had to almost drag out of him what kind of a Catholic Church? What which of the various because it's not Roman.

So it's you know, like a Byzantine right or something or you know, I had to drag that out of him and did not seem overly comfortable at all even discussing it and so I'm just aside from just the constant snide Attacks and and just you know the utilization of language, you know, I I said to rich don't even don't even bother because There's no one better at Twitter warfare in Controlling the conversation Not truthfully but through language through.

Oh, you're implying this or you're attacking me this way I Think one of the one of the issues I think we're seeing here and I think this is Has relevance to both Sam and David as well when you? Limit your exchanges primarily to the worst most violent angry elements of the other side and and you'll notice when you This isn't completely true of Sam, but it is with Robert and David.

The primary primary Religious group that they are opposed to and are dealing with is Islam. Sam will do some other small amount of other other things with with other groups but for all of them Islam is the primary thing and And When you when you then focus primarily upon The worst that the other side has to offer the the people that are violent.

I mean, I've always been troubled. And I've expressed this this concern in seeing David posting these vile threats against his life or his wife or his children or everybody I Have just always been especially the responses.

You know, sometimes it's a gracious response but often it's a let's escalate this type of response a mockery type of response and This has always concerned me. You may say well, that's because you're a wimp.

Okay fine if that's what you want to believe but it concerns me because it's it creates a spiral and If that's all you're ever dealing with people who are trying to kill you people who are threatening your life.

The result is you start putting everybody into just one box and You are going to therefore that the level of your approach is going to be determined by the constant level of activity and intellect and argument of the people that you're normally dealing with and so yes, you do have to deal with people like that, but They are not in fact representative of the entire whole just as we have to as Christians recognize there are people who Claim the name of Christ and yet behave in ways that we we have to Fundamentally say is completely outside outside the borders of Christian behavior and morals and ethics and everything else since Oh One of the big differences that I'm certainly seeing as I see this playing out as I as I as I honestly am and shocked that a Christian minister and of course in Sam Schmooze perspective, even that's irrelevant I guess and what he said about the church that I've been at for most of his life As a as a Christian minister I've expressed sincere Biblically based concerns about the methodology and it's not and it's not just methodology methodology in regards to Christian behavior and how we Present the gospel in such a way that we do not present an impediment to the Spirit of God.