March 29, 2023 Show with Susan Heck on “Equipping Pastors’ Wives”

Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania home of founding father James Wilson

19th century hymn writer George Duffield 19th century gospel minister George Norcross and sports

legend Jim Thorpe.

It's iron sharpens iron.

This is a radio platform in which pastors and Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning

issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron.

So one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage We are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to

have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours.

And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions.

And now here's your host Chris Arnson.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on

the planet earth who are listening via live streaming at iron sharpens iron Radio .com.

This is Chris Arnson your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 29th day

of March 2023.

I'm thrilled to have a first -time guest today who is going to be on the speaking

roster at my Favorite conference of all time that I have attended for many

years now.

Manning and exhibitors booth to represent iron sharpens Iron radio.

I'm speaking of the g3 National conference which is coming up September

21st through 23rd in Atlanta Georgia on the sovereignty of God and

one of the many speakers who has a special message for the ladies who will be attending is

Susan Heck founder of the ministry with the master and today We're going to be addressing

the theme equipping pastors wives to meet the challenges of that vital role in the

local congregation.

It's my honor and privilege to welcome you to for the very first time ever to iron sharpens iron radio Susan Heck.

Thank you.

Good to be here.

Well, what.

Tell us something about this ministry that you have Started that you have founded with the master.

Well, it's been in existence for about 30 years.

I've been writing studies for women and other books counseling books, but it's mainly expository studies

for women.

I've written 16 and I've been traveling now for 25 years.

Teaching women throughout the u .s. And around the world.

So it's been a busy time along with being a pastor's wife for 46 years until

the Lord took my husband home about a year and a half ago.

So been very busy.

Well, I trust the Lord is giving you peace knowing where your husband now

resides in the presence of his king and I'm sure that that

buffered the blow To an enormous degree when you lost that

precious part of your life.

It did but God has been faithful to me and he Has given me a lot more

opportunities now for traveling and I think we're gonna be out 40 times this year.

Speaking so a lady travels with me and runs my book table.

So it's been it's been a joy to just see how he's a new chapter in my life and I rest in that.

Amen.

Well if anybody wants more details on the ministry with the master go to with the master

org.

With the master org and hopefully I will remember to repeat that toward the end of

the program.

Now tell us about What you will be speaking on at the upcoming g3

national conference this September in Atlanta, Georgia.

All right, well I was first asked to speak on the sovereignty of God as it relates to scripture memorization and.

Then I got an email saying they want me to speak on women's issues in the church because of the recent

debate in the movement between the complementarianism and egalitarianism.

So I guess I'm be addressing that and and also doing a pre -conference for

women a day earlier.

I'm not sure exactly what's entailed in that and I think Aaron Coates From Canada may be

joining me for that as well.

So we haven't been quite told what our titles are supposed to be.

So my Aaron would be the wife of James Coates the past.

Yes.

Yes, and I was just with her last weekend.

She came from Canada to speak at a pastor's wife's conference that I hosted for

pastors wife.

So she was one of the speakers and mentioned that she may be coming to do that pre -conference with me.

Yeah, many of our listeners should remember that James Coates Aaron's husband was arrested in

Canada for refusing to shut down his worship services after

COVID mandates were being laid down by the Canadian government and.

So tell us about this conference because I've never heard of a conference like it.

Well, I hadn't either but about 20 years ago I became very concerned about the pastor's wives as I'd

go around and teach a lot of them were not involved in the Conferences or retreats for women and when I start

asking where's your pastor's wife?

Well, she doesn't she's not involved.

She's kind of isolated or just different things and the ones that were there I would begin to try to

visit with them and learned that the ministry was not something they they enjoyed they were lonely.

They were hurting and so I mentioned to my husband.

I said, you know, there's a huge need most women don't like the pastorate.

I personally loved it.

It felt it was an honor to do that.

And so it's a burden I've had for two decades now and So it's kind of finally came to

fruition and we hosted our first one last weekend 300 women and they're

wanting another one already.

So I thought about Shepherds conference they started with 77 men in John

MacArthur's home and I think last Month or this few weeks ago.

They had almost 5 ,000 men.

So we started with 300 so who knows where it'll go.

Oh, yeah, even even the g3 conference began in a much smaller venue at the

Praise Mill Baptist Church in Douglasville, Georgia when they first started having those

conferences and now they have an arena that they not only

had to leave previous Venue because of the lack of

size, but the even the venue that they have now they had to change rooms because

the Registration is record -breaking now for this year's G3 national conference

and they outgrew the already the original room that they were going to use.

Well, if anybody wants to find out more about the g3 conference on the sovereignty of God

September 21st through the 23rd in Atlanta, Georgia.

Where I will be Manning and exhibitors booth once again for iron trumpets on radio Go to g3 min

org g3 min org events and Just to

whet your appetite speakers include Votie Balcom Steven Lawson Paul Washer

Phil Johnson of grace to you ministries James White Mike Riccardi Justin Peters

Ken Han Owen Strand Josh Bice the founder of g3 ministries James Coates who

we just mentioned earlier Scott Annie old Virgil Walker Daryl Harrison Scott Brown and

again Susan Heck who will be providing some messages for the ladies in attendance and

I hope to see as many of you listening At this conference as possible

and please if you haven't registered yet use my discount code

that will get you 30 off the registration fee and will also

encourage Josh Bice and the folks at the g3 ministries to continue

advertising with iron trumpets iron radio.

The Discount code is g3 is IR g3

is IR.

You will get 30 % off the registration fee when you go to g3 min org.

Well before we enter into our topic today equipping pastors wives to meet the challenges of that vital

role in the local congregation.

We have a tradition here whenever we have a first -time guest in the program We have that guest give a summary

of their salvation testimony, which would include any kind of religious atmosphere

the guest has been raised in and what kind of Providential circumstances

our Sovereign Lord raised up in the guests life that drew him or her to himself and

Save them.

So let's hear your story.

All righty.

Well, I was brought up here in Oklahoma.

My father was a minister and he obviously preached the gospel and

so when I was 513 and 18, I Got saved and baptized but it never took and so

I didn't want to go to hell and I'd been through some Challenging circumstances and I went off to

Moody Bible Institute when I graduated from college.

And I met Phil Johnson was my husband's roommate soon -to -be husband's roommate.

Wow my dad baptized Phil Johnson.

Phil Johnson went to my church and He said my pastor's daughter's coming up here and she tends to get in with the

wrong crowd and I want you to missionary day er, so Phil introduced Doug and I.

I.

Thought only Mormons did that.

No Phil Phil you Phil introduced us and so the rest is history a year later we

got married and my husband almost called off the wedding the night before we got married because he began to wonder if I

really was a genuine believer, but he and Ten years into

my marriage.

I mean I honestly to be truthful.

It was Difficult because of me my husband was in the ministry and I was doing all the

stuff going to church and Things like that, but my life never transformed

really in fact, I think my sin I don't think I know it just got worse and worse and at

the age of 30 the Lord through some circumstances Allowed me

to be in a hospital for two weeks four more weeks at home and isolated really in isolation back then no cell

phones I had to really look at my life and it was a mess and that was

when I repented gave my life to the Lordship of Christ and

Totally transformed me I I read my Bible every day, but it meant nothing until God

saved me and so my husband was in the first graduating class at Masters Seminary.

My Phil Johnson told him they were starting a seminary program.

So right after the Lord saved me we headed out to California and I mean I I was just drinking

in the scriptures and loving my new life in Christ and so that

was 37 years ago and And I had to get baptized the fourth and final time.

So I called my parents to tell him I was gonna be baptized again.

And my mom said I'm not surprised I've seen the change in you so You know the Lord for 37

years now I've been walking with him loving him and no longer a slave to

sin, but a slave to Christ and it's been a been quite a journey, but thankful for

the life he's given me and thankful for the yet my upbringing but I do believe that

You know decisional regeneration can really be damaging in many

ways to people by The way I was, you know walking I'll pray a prayer you that you're saved and that's

not salvation and I know for me it wasn't until I was 30 that I really saw myself as a sinner and

And God saved me and I'm so thankful.

I'm so thankful.

So that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Well, I'm assuming you got re -baptized because and I'm actually very

glad to hear that because in Baptistic circles

It seems to be rare very rare for someone Who was baptized

in a day and age of their lives?

When they Know that they were not truly saved.

They were still living in rebellion got baptized for any number of reasons it could have been

that they were a little child and Had a childlike understanding of just being

Obedient to the parents who wanted them to be baptized or it could have been just a whole host of reasons that they got baptized

When they were not truly born again, and then when later they become saved in

reality By the grace and mercy of Christ.

It saddens me that many if not most Baptists Don't

get baptized Again and in reality, it would be the first baptism because

repent repentance and faith are elements Required of a candidate

of baptism is so I'm assuming that's why You were baptized again.

That's right.

I wanted to be baptized as a genuine believer.

And so my husband baptized me for the last time the fourth and final time.

So it was embarrassing but you know what it was good as a pastor's wife.

I was already a pastor's wife and but I was able to give my testimony of repentance and

faith in Christ and it was a joy.

So very thankful.

Praise God.

And by the way, you will be pleased to know that this Monday Returning to my program

after many many many interviews on iron trip and Zion radio is Phil Johnson.

Phil Johnson He did hold the record and he still might hold the record for

The most frequently interviewed guest on iron trump and Zion and He

is going to be addressing a controversial issue we are going to be discussing

the growing movement tragically among reformed Christians

who are opposing lordship salvation so that at one

time the dispensationalists Cornered the market on that

opposition.

Especially when dr. MacArthur first wrote the gospel according to Jesus, but now we have even

Presbyterians and other reformed Christians claiming to be opposed to that.

So that's what Phil and I will be discussing this coming Monday.

So mark your calendars folks.

If you would like to hear Phil Johnson again, it's been quite a while since he's been on the show.

I don't even know why that has been such a long absence But we're glad he's coming back.

Well now let's enter into this theme that we have equipping pastors

wives to meet the challenges of that vital role in the local congregation now

I guess Where we have the qualifications for an elder

There is a part of those qualifications That involves

ruling his household.

Well but Specifically

For the qualifications of a pastor's wife you you don't have

Specifically and clearly laid out those kind of details other than things that we can

generally absorb from the scriptures.

And I have come to believe that When a when a

church is calling a man to be their pastor They need to look very closely at the wife

as well.

Not that she is just a submissive woman who is not involved in scandalous sin of some kind.

But I think that there's a lot more that a church should be desiring

From the wife of a pastor not that she is obviously going to be holding

to Offices in the church that are unbiblical for a woman to hold.

But would you agree with that that there seems to be not much or too little

consideration into The the wife of the man a church is calling to be a

pastor.

Yes, I agree with you.

And I think that it's very imperative that the wife be interviewed as well as the children.

I think it's wise.

I know my husband did that anytime a new elder was coming on board.

He interviewed the wife and the children both and so I.

Yes, I do and it is it is a shame because I know many pastors wives do not enjoy the pastorate

they're not really supportive of their husband's role and That's gonna make for not a good

situation in the local church if a wife is not supportive and and

Encouraging her husband as he shepherds the flock and I think she should be helping him Shepherd the

women that's a good role for her and I'm it's grievous to me when I see

women that don't they're not involved at all and Isolating themselves and they just don't you know,

don't see that as their role.

So tell us some of the ways that women that need to be

Further equipped to live out the role as the wife of a pastor.

Well, I think first of all she needs to make sure that she sees her primary responsibility is to

Minister to her husband.

I know I was very sensitive to that the Lord's Day, especially and in making sure that I was

Available.

I tried not to bring up Anything controversial on the Lord's Day making sure that he had time

that he needed to Prepare and he did and and Saturdays were always kind of a sacred day in

our home.

So I think there's a lot of where she needs to realize that she needs to die to herself.

Her husband has an enormous responsibility.

He's going to be opening the sacred text and He doesn't need a wife that's nagging him or

Making his life miserable the few days before before he's gonna be in the pulpit so

I think she needs to learn to be selfless and Think about him above herself as we're commanded in

Scripture.

I think that might even entail making sure the children are that she's the night before church.

She's got things ready for them and and that she makes everything easy for him.

Especially those those days where he has to minister the Word of God.

That she's also not Realizing the the sacrifice for the family.

I know we would tell our children growing up We will do this but things may come up we may have

hospital calls.

We may have somebody in the church that suddenly passes and and your dad and I have to go.

So they knew that and consequently my children both love the ministry and my son's a

pastor and my son -in -law is a pastor and They said they loved growing up in a minister's home and seeing the

joy of serving.

But unfortunately, I don't think a lot of pastors wives do that.

And but ministering and giving of oneself to the body is a joy.

But so I think they need help in that.

I think they need encouragement on how to handle criticism not let that You know ruffle their feathers.

They need to learn how to be content whether that's it's a good time in the church or a time

of struggle.

They need they just there's just a lot of needs they have and and I'll tell you one of the things I'm doing now Is

now that I'm a widow I'm pouring a lot of my time into pastors wife.

I think right now.

I'm discipling 12 pastors wives just around us just just trying to help

them and encourage them and Just be there for them.

And I know that it has Ministered to them.

It's ministered to me to be able to try to encourage them.

And so I have a huge burden for this and I want these women to

come alongside their husband look at that as an honor and a privilege and a joy to be able to be in this kind

of Service, so I would like to even have some classes for him just like we did this weekend

and some workshops on how to handle criticism how to Raise your children in the minister's home things

like that.

There needs to be some training for these women and help.

Now it's not a sin to be quiet and introverted.

And not very sociable but those character

traits when it comes to being possessed by the wife of a

pastor they can create problems obviously and because of the fact that

People may just wrongly read this woman.

They may think that she's aloof.

They may think she doesn't like them.

They may think she's Cliquish, it could be a whole host of things.

But do you have any? counsel on how women in that category can

overcome that so that the congregation Experiences a sense of

love from her and care and compassion and interest in their lives.

Yeah, I do because honestly I was that weren't woman I was my husband's was very outgoing and I was more

introvert.

But I just had to learn that it wasn't about me and so I Year

after year after year.

I just got more comfortable going to meet people gasp strangers.

We our home was a revolving door.

We had people in our home all the time for dinner.

And so I just had to get out of myself, but just to lovingly come alongside and encourage her.

Reach out to two or three new people today and just give her assignments on that I think would be

helpful, but but I think there's a lot of unnecessary fear fear of man fear of

rejection fear of saying the wrong thing and.

But I believe that you know with with help she can learn how to overcome her Personality or her

introvertness or whatever and and I was that person I'm still not

a big crowd person, but I think it's funny that that's the role.

I mean, I mean right now so God has a way of stretching us and sanctifying

us so but it is sad I was I was at a church a few weeks ago in Connecticut and the pastor I was telling him

about what I was getting ready to do the pastor's wife thing and and he I told him I loved the Pastor and he said you're the first

pastor's wife.

I've ever heard say that he said every pastor's wife.

I've ever talked to Told has told me that they don't like the pastorate and I said

bingo.

That's why we're having this conference.

We want to encourage these women to see this as a joy and a delight so.

Well when we come back from the first commercial break, I'd like you to share with us some of the reasons why?

Women who are the wives of pastors don't like that position.

They're in and if anybody would like to join us on the air or the question of your own for Susan heck.

Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Give us your first name at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence.

If you live outside the USA, please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and

private matter.

And obviously we would never want somebody Writing in and saying I'm a member of

first Baptist Church of such -and -such town in such -and -such city.

And I don't like the pastor's wife.

Obviously, but thank thank God I'm taking listener questions by email these days because when you have a

The call -in format that I used to have those kinds of things could happen.

But we look forward to hearing from you and your questions for Susan heck.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back after these messages from our sponsors.

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Royal diadem calm we're now back with Susan Heck and she is the founder

of with the master and We are addressing equipping pastors wives to meet the

challenges of that vital role in the local congregation.

And we're also promoting the 2023 g3 national conference where Susan will be speaking

to the ladies present at that conference and If you have a question for Susan

our email address is Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

Give his first name at least city and state of residence and country of residence.

And Susan We were just about to enter into some

of the reasons that you have found in your Exhaustive

experience Where women have Confided in you.

I do not want to be a pastor's wife and I'm stuck in this position.

I really don't like it I hate it.

I wish my husband would resign and so I could just get out of this situation.

Yep.

Thankfully, not all of them.

Well, what would be some of the reasons women have given you why they are feeling that or believing that?

Well, I think that they have a hard time giving up their time With their husband and

family issues and they don't want to give up their time for their husband to have to give to the church

they Many of them have been through Church splits and they don't know how to

handle that where they're rejected by people that they thought were their friends.

So a lot of people don't leave a church correctly.

And so there's a lot of division and slander and things like that and so that they don't know how to

handle the criticism of their husband or themselves or their children and I don't you know, honestly, I

think it boils down to a lack of love for the church.

And that was one of the things that Aaron Coates spoke on this last weekend was as a pastor's

wife.

You've got to see the church the way Christ sees it and we we have to have a love for the body of Christ.

This is his body.

And so I don't think I don't believe they see the overall bigger picture of the Church of

Jesus Christ and what it's what it's meant to Estab why it was established?

What's it meant to accomplish here while we're waiting for our new bodies and glorification?

So that was helpful.

I know Martha P spoke last weekend on what she wishes every pastor's wife knew and That that

material was profound.

That was our beginning session and I hope it was helpful to the pastor's wives that were there

because she dealt with some issues that They need to know and so yeah

I think it's just a lack of maybe not being trained in seminary or wherever their husband got trained.

There's nothing even then.

I know I was blessed to be trained at master seminary and seminary wives by

Couple ladies and we had a program for us.

But I know most seminaries don't have that for the wives as their husbands are preparing.

They're not preparing the wives for what is the pastorate even like what do you what should you expect?

How do you handle certain things?

And so I think that's imperative.

Now.

What would you suggest? that a church does if

the congregation seems to come to.

Observe.

That this new pastor that they've had for you know, perhaps weeks or months

The the wife is not what they were hoping for.

Is there a way to With tact and with

humility and With out of a genuine motive of Christian

love for women in the church to approach that

pastor's wife and Sit down with her perhaps over a meal

and Just unburden their hearts about the situation.

Yeah, I think that would be great along with what I think would be ideal.

Honestly Chris is to have an older godly woman within the body of Christ That can

take that pastor's wife under her wing meet with her on a weekly basis spend time in prayer with

her let her feel questions she may have or burdens she may have

knowing that it's kept in a Confidential situation and just to be a Titus to woman

to her and That's what I think would be the most ideal and just to find an old

seasoned Saint That would be willing to pour into this woman.

I I know I'm You know, I have two women that have discipled me for for over 37 years.

One's 90 now one's 80 and I don't know where I would be without them they

really helped me through the formative years as a pastor's wife and they're still pouring into me and

I'm very thankful for them.

And I think that's the model that Christ has set for us in the church as an older woman helping a young woman.

So that I would say the pastor's wife is not exempt from being discipled.

She's not exempt from accountability and so I think an older woman would lovingly go to

her and say hey, you know, why don't let's come over for coffee this week and Build a friendship build a relationship

Confidentiality prayer support.

I think that would be ideal also.

You know, Mary Somerville has a great book called one with the Shepherd on being a pastor's wife where she

deals with every pretty much any situation a pastor's wife might be facing and I've

gone through that book with many pastor's wives just trying to help them.

So Yeah, I think if she she gets there and they find out oh boy

She She's not what we had hoped for or dreamed for, you know, you don't hire the wife, but she does come along with

the package.

So along with the kids, too.

Sometimes the preachers kids they probably like to get rid of us.

They say they're the worst but but that's not true.

I was I thankful for my two children, but Yeah, I think that's the model and that's what

I would do and that's why I'm doing what I am doing I'm I just had another pastor's wife this weekend at the conference.

She said well, you could you would you disciple me and I said sure and so we're gonna talk next week on the phone and

I'm gonna try to guide and help her and so In whatever way I can be used To help

these women.

I want to help them.

Well, I can you repeat the title and publisher of that book because I'd like to

Have our listeners, especially if they are wives of pastors and even pastors.

If they're listening they want to get this book.

Sure, it's called one with the Shepherd by Mary Somerville.

Her husband Bob Somerville is a professor or was at Masters College and Seminary.

He's written several books himself, but excellent book.

Excellent.

Do you know who publishes it?

I do not.

It's in my yes.

Well, if if you go to CV BBS comm Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service who sponsored this

program if you ask for that book One with the Shepherd by Mary Somerville, that's correct.

That's the.

If they don't have it, they'll order it for you.

So the CV BBS comm and make sure you tell them that you heard about

Them.

From iron sharpens iron radio.

Let's see here we have a an anonymous listener.

The anonymous listener says.

If a young man who has made it clear he desires to enter the ministry.

Perhaps he's a seminarian and he has asked a woman to be his wife and they are engaged.

What things are most important that this woman should be?

Contemplating very seriously during self -examination.

To see if she is the type of woman who would be best suited for this young man.

Who has a calling from God to shepherd God's people?

Well what I would tell her she has to have a love for the church.

She I think needs to be a woman of strength a woman that is self -controlled

woman that really is Model Titus to loves her husband if there are children

she'll love them.

She's pure.

She sees her home as her haven and and she wants to make it a place that is comfortable for her

husband.

So she's benevolent.

She's wanting to help other people and she understands the role of the woman in the home.

That's that's probably the most important thing.

I know a lot of pastors wives that love it they just see my daughter's a pastor's wife and She

sees her main ministry to her husband and My my daughter -in -law is a pastor's wife as

well.

But she's she serves a lot more pro -act.

She's a lot more active in the church in serving and using but my my daughter's at home with children so

I think she needs to be a Titus to woman first of all, but see the the church as something

that she loves deeply and Like I said my home our home was a revolving door.

We there probably was hardly a day went by that.

We didn't have someone in our home whether it was for dinner discipleship or just to visit

and so she needs to be a woman of Contentment and go go with the flow.

She can't be she's got to be willing to be flexible.

So I know that's a lot.

That's a mouthful.

But that's what I've learned through the years.

So.

Now when you say that a woman should know Know with certainty that she loves the church

that could be taken in a at least a couple of different ways there can be a

general and theological way in which the person says To

themselves.

I know that Christ died for his church Therefore I must love his

church.

And in fact, it's interesting that when soul of Tarsus

Was on his journey to continue persecuting Christians when

Christ Jesus stopped him in his tracks on the road to Damascus

He asked Saul why why do you persecute me?

He didn't say the church.

He didn't say my disciples my followers.

He said why do you persecute me?

He so closely connected the church with himself that he made that Powerful

statement, so those are things that we should remember about the church whenever we are disgruntled and

impatient and and wanting to abandon ship and all those things but

what other way is she to love the church she it may be a Specific church her husband might

already Either be the pastor of a church or the church That he

desires to Receive a call from to enter it in the ministry might be the church that he was raised and he might be a

member of That church already and his wife just knows about where his fiancee I should say knows

about all the problems in that congregation and she has

Bitterness perhaps that she has to work through and and you know, we're supposed to love Our

brothers and sisters in Christ, but liking them can be an entirely different story.

So tell us about that other way other than the obvious theological one.

Yeah, I love the poem to live with the Saints above that'll be glory but to live with the

Saints below that's another story.

So, you know she that is that is challenging.

You know and when I'm talking about the church, I mean I'm talking about the church universal.

But I'm also talking about the church that her husband Says yes to the call as pastor and you

know goodness I you know, I was a pastor's wife for 46 years and there were they're challenging people.

But I am to agape them.

Do I have to fillet them?

Maybe not so much.

I'd like to fillet him sometimes but but not to flail.

Just learning to love in the sense of what do they need and sometimes they might need you to speak the truth and love to

them sometimes they might need a somebody to shoulder to cry on so whatever

that need is but we just we need to love the Individuals in the church as well.

And so and again, that's not always easy as you know, that is not

always easy and I I Understand that we we went through some hard times in the three

churches my husband planted it wasn't always a good time.

But we stuck in there and my husband was a faithful man.

So.

But yeah, she needs to she needs to love the church universally, but also the individuals and again, that's where

you know.

Her husband can be a help to her my husband was a huge help to me and also other other people within the body of

Christ and you know, she'd be wise to To study up on 1st Corinthians

13.

Well, thank you anonymous and if you are a first -time questioner let me know

and you will receive a free New American Standard Bible compliments of the publishers of the NASB

and compliments of Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service CV BBS comm who will

ship it out to you at no charge to you or to us.

We have Susan Margaret in Dauphin County, Pennsylvania.

Who asks do you have any counsel for a pastor's wife?

Who may be stirring up problems? unintentionally in the congregation because they think

she's throwing her weight around too much and Acting more like a co -pastor

to her husband than a pastor's wife.

Oh.

Yeah, I think that needs to be taken care of quickly.

As Jesus said in Sermon on the Mount, you know do it quickly.

So I would if if this woman has privy to that information She's seeing that

I would just as soon as possible lovingly take her side and or invite her over for coffee or

something and and Share speak the truth in love and in a gentle

humble way consider yourself and just should share lovingly what you're seeing and the

concerns you have.

And you know, I would definitely take care of that soon because she could be very

divisive and and Destroy her husband's ministry there in that church.

So She needs to learn how to have a meek and quiet spirit to be calm and

collected and not aggressive.

So Yeah, that woman should probably go to her in love and humility.

And of course, it could be a false perception right by the yeah people

making the complaints because she might be just a brilliant woman who's very creative and

just has a lot of Ideas that she believed will benefit the church and she is just

making those known through her husband and so on not acting as a.

A.

Separate agent unto herself, but but you know speaking through The

their ministry of marriage that they have so that's another thing that people have to be

careful about is judging people's motives and so on.

Maybe just get to know her and ask her some questions.

Hey, I've noticed that.

You know, you really you're pretty active in this area.

You do this.

Or just maybe get a open dialogue with her and maybe get to know her a little bit.

Maybe get to know why she does what she does.

We have another anonymous listener who says how important is it for a

pastor's wife.

To open up her home to the congregation.

I'm not saying obviously all of them at the same time but over the course of years

making sure.

Especially when the church is relatively small that every member does have that

opportunity to visit with them.

Well, it's imperative.

It's part of the qualifications of an elder.

He has he's to be given to hospitality.

So It is her role and responsibility to make sure That her

husband remains qualified and that is he is to be given over to hospitality.

My husband would have had the whole church live with us if I don't so.

He loved people and I love him too, but in you know, not quite as

much not to have him live with me so She needs help in that area.

Maybe she's a doesn't know how to open her home I mean she's trying to put on a fancy You know five -course

meal when she could just order a pizza and have people over it Doesn't have to be a complicated thing.

You know people want to get you know, Peter says it's the elders who are among you they're there with you and so.

The church gets to needs to get to know the pastor.

They need to get to know his wife.

They need to be a part of their lives.

We intertwine our lives together.

So she just needs some help in that maybe some education in that how to do that simply creatively.

But yes, her home should be open and that's one of the things since my husband's been gone for a year and a half

I I really miss that.

You know, it's it's just me, but we had very active

Things going on in her home, that's no more.

So Yeah, she just needs some help in that.

Perhaps you even know of the very well known situation That was used

mightily of God in the life of Rosaria Butterfield.

Have you.

Mm -hmm.

Yep with the pastor.

Yeah, yes where she was not only yes, not only an open lesbian, but a

leftist hardcore leftist.

Yeah, yeah, and she was Pleasantly shocked by the

invitation to dinner by a local pastor where she lived upstate New York and That

blossomed into a friendship and the Lord used that to save her and also to introduce her to

her husband who was a friend of that couple, so You never know what's gonna happen when you invite people.

You do not.

You know I can't tell you through the years Chris how many people.

Because we would have all our new people over for dinner at some point.

And most would say you're the first pastor That's ever at it had us in your home for

dinner.

And so that that was again I think a little bit of an indictment on pastors and their

wives in general.

So we just made it our policy anytime.

We had a couple that would visit three or four times while we find a time in our schedule.

We could have them over so it means a lot.

It means a lot and we have to go to our midway break right now.

Please be patient with us folks.

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James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.

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Dr. Joe Moore.

Craft.

I'm Joe Reilly a faithful iron sharpens iron radio listener here in a tie in County Kildare Ireland.

Going back to 2005 one of my very favorite guests of iron sharpens iron is dr. Joe

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That's also the email address where you can send in a question to Susan heck Who is the founder of the

ministry with the master?

And we are discussing equipping pastors wives to meet the challenges of that vital role in a local congregation.

That's Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

Give us your first name at least city and state and country of residence and only remain anonymous.

If your question involves a personal and private matter and we do have another such anonymous

question.

The question to you Susan is should a pastor's wife ever make public

Theological differences she may have with her husband, even if they are of secondary

importance.

Well, I think that depends on the situation.

I know my husband would have often question and answer times on Sunday night.

And so during those times of Q &A based on his sermons or just anything they want to ask

It might have been made known he might say something like well my wife and I We differ on this

issue or something like that.

They were all always secondary issues.

But I how she does that should be careful in In the gathering I think

would be especially In the church gathering.

I think I would be very cautious about that unless it's really a Situation that's led by her

husband.

I think in a gathering with women If she is talking about it, I know my husband and I had a

little bit different view on divorce.

And so When we were counseling a couple I always let him do all the counseling

until he would turn to me and ask me.

So I would just say, you know We differ on that but I would give my opinion if he thought it was wise for me to

do that.

So, I think she should be very cautious I don't think that means she lies or anything.

But I think she wants to honor and respect her husband and his position.

And so I think if it's done in a Christlike way, well, you know, my husband and I we we differ on

eschatology, he's he's a dispensationalist and I'm this but we don't make that an issue in our home and

We've learned to respect one another's views and things like that.

So I think it's it's all in how she words it.

She can word it in a way that is very Respectful to his position or she can word it in a way where she

makes him look like a dunderhead and that's not right so I think it's all in how she does

it and.

Don't forget anonymous if you're a first -time questioner, give us your full name and mailing address.

Because you have won a free New American Standard Bible and that goes for any first -time

Questioner who has a question today and always you will receive a free Bible.

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Well since all pastors wives.

Obviously are women.

Perhaps you could go through some more general issues that you have encountered.

Being in ministry to women for so many years decades.

What would be some of the most common things if there is such a thing that women

approach you about?

Who are believers in Christ, but they're having difficulties in their lives in one way or another.

Can you go through some of those things and let our listeners know the kind of counsel you've given women?

Yes, I've dealt with pastors wives who struggle with depression and

they Have a hard time Seeing their days as good and

they they dread some of them getting out of bed in the morning.

So I've gotten to go through Bob Somerville's book if I'm a Christian.

Why am I depressed with them and just trying to help them?

I think another common thing is their children.

That's a big issue because Pastors kids are no different than anyone else's they sin.

They make mistakes.

Some of them make grave mistakes some of them exemplify their fathers from staying

in the ministry, so Just trying to navigate and help her through that and how to parent her

children.

I know in a situation right now Pastors wife is is wondering she asked me.

How do I tell my children?

About what's getting ready to happen in our church and it's not a good situation and So just

giving her guidance and wisdom on how to tell the child.

It's certainly the age of the child is is very important.

Some young children don't need to know certain things going on.

So You know, I think but when you have teenage young adult children, they can figure out something's going on.

So we were very careful.

What we told our children so just guiding her through that I think that's a huge issue.

I know of one pastor's wife.

She was taking her kids to another church and I didn't think that was a good idea during the week.

For their youth activities, and I I don't think that's a wise precedent to set so

looks a little strange.

But there you know, the issues are varied just like it is in any situation.

But just helping guide her through those things how to prepare For Sunday morning worship by

getting prepared on Saturday night.

I think that's imperative teaching her how to do that.

So that Sunday morning's not chaos before they're trying to go to the house of the Lord for for worship and being with

God's people.

But I think honestly the thing that I see the most that pastors wife struggle with

is how to handle Personal criticism towards them their husband or their children.

That is that is the number one thing that is challenging for them and.

I would imagine that often especially when it comes to the children the criticisms are valid.

Well, how does a congregant Respect the office of

the eldership and And Tactfully let

the pastor know that the children That the elders children are doing something

that is annoying dangerous Disrespectful.

You could go on and on with a list of why somebody would complain about an elders child.

Well, how do you do that without?

View it being viewed as being disrespectful.

Right, I think for one thing if the child is a small child, that's one thing I do think it would be

wise to Go to the elders wife pastor his wife and say hey I noticed your child

was in fact, we've had this happen in years past where they were running through the church and

and a very.

And almost causing someone to trip and fall or in the in the way of an older person.

That's in a walker.

So just saying hey, I'm not sure if you realize it.

But your child is running in the church and and they almost caused this woman to trip and so could you please?

You know watch what they're doing.

I think if it's a teenager I think it'd be wise to go to that person directly as the scriptures say and

just say hey I noticed that you were.

I've noticed you're doing this or This habit you're doing in church or whatever is not

appropriate.

I've noticed you're playing games on your phone while your father's preaching and that's that's not wise you need to put your phone

down and Show respect to your father.

So I think that the age is important.

Young teenager teenager college age.

Pastors kids go to them as you would an adult young children.

It might be wiser to go to the parents say hey, I noticed they're there they're doing things that

are you might want to keep your eye on that and.

So, I know some pastors wives they get busy.

They they're talking to people before and after church and they're not really not paying attention To what their kids are

doing as do most parents don't pay attention.

So I think some good observation skills would be in hand here for that.

BB in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania.

Asks.

Forgive me if I missed this but I heard your guest was a part of a conference for pastors wives.

And I was wondering if she could list some of the primary speaking sessions that took place.

Sure.

Martha P started out with what she wishes every pastor's wife knew.

She also had a breakout session on woke or awake.

I spoke on speaking the truth in love in a post truth world and I also spoke on

what to do.

Well, you don't know what to do.

Aaron Coates spoke on loving the church and also Message on being velvet steel.

Naptalie pillage spoke on the importance of being connected to the vine and Lisa Hughes spoke on

Psalm 37 and then also on being your help husband's helper.

All that is on you can go to my website with the master org or shepherds wife comm and

you can hear all those messages, so All pastors wives that are listening or all you that are listening

that know pastors wives, please Send them to that those websites so they can hear those

messages and be encouraged and helped in their vocation as a wife

of a pastor.

Great and that is somehow connected with the shepherds conference run by dr. John MacArthur,

correct?

Well, John endorsed it as well as Phil Johnson.

They both wrote endorsements or had video endorsements for it.

It wasn't necessarily a TMS Offspring, but we did take the name from shepherds wife and

there were a lot of TMS Graduates their pastors wives, but we also had some from other places.

Excuse me some from other places, too.

So but we did get endorsement from John and from Phil so that was a good deal.

And for those of you who are wondering what TMS is it's the master's seminar.

Mm -hmm, and we have another anonymous listener Who

says have you ever heard of a case?

Where a pastor either voluntarily stepped down from his office or

Was forced to step down by the other elders in the church Because of the

wife not living up to what a pastor's role pastor's

wife's role should be and I'm not talking about scandalous sin, I'm just talking

about Ordinary reasons that might make a woman less desirable for a

pastor's wife.

I.

Have never heard of that.

No I have not heard of a pastor being forced to resign or willingly resigning because

His wife was viewed that way.

So I'm sure there have been those cases.

I've just not been made aware of them.

Okay, and again anonymous if you are a first -time questioner, let us know so you can receive a

new American Standard Bible for free and Let's see here.

We have CJ from Lindenhurst Long Island, New York.

Is there a way that you suggest that these types of shepherds wives?

Conferences that you Founded can be multiplied around the country

where smaller church groups can try to duplicate what you're doing.

Yes, that is our desire.

We hope to host another one next year a regional one and We have also talked.

I've talked to Aaron about maybe doing something in Canada.

So I could foresee in the future.

Like I said, this was our first one.

But I could see in the future that we could host regional ones kind of like what g3 does and other

Bigger organizations do and then host regional Conferences for the different parts of the United

States, and I think that would be such a help to these women.

And in helping the women that helps their husbands.

Amen, just out of curiosity since you are obviously a

Conservative Christian woman more appropriately identified as a biblical Christian woman

and you are Complementarian you believe in the headship the male

headship of the church in the household.

Have you ever had?

Extremely negative experiences.

With either just your average neighbor Acquaintance friend or family

member who is a woman and more of an overt feminist or perhaps even

professing Christian women.

Because obviously as you know Feminism has definitely infiltrated even the

Evangelical Church.

It's not just the liberal mainline churches even Evangelical churches very often

Have the problem of feminism that has infiltrated in and taken over and the

churches might be even matriarchal in their their presence, but tell us

about that how you have Experienced have you experienced that and have.

How have you sought to overcome those kinds of negative experiences?

Yes, I've had several in the 25 years I've been speaking especially when I go to things like g3 where I'm I

it's obvious I'm teaching women only but I've had this happen at counseling conferences.

I've spoken at homeschool conferences.

I've spoken at other conferences that I've been at and where.

Actually men have tried to get in even though it's very clear on the door says women only I've received a lot

of flack for that.

I've had to even You know be kind of hard -nosed about it and I've

gotten a lot of persecution for that.

But I'm very clear about what my convictions are and they're not only my convictions.

They were my husband's and my church and.

So it's not popular today.

So I've been asked to compromise through the years, but I haven't given in on that nor will I so.

But yeah, there's a group out there and it's a growing group.

Honestly, Chris, it's kind of concerning I would say my my views on women preachers

was was the norm.

But it's becoming as we know it's becoming quite in vogue and

even in some fundamental churches women are being now allowed to you know teach co -ed

Sunday school classes and things like that and it's getting more and more common and

A huge violation of.

First Timothy now when you say teach co -ed classes, are you speaking of adults?

Yes, okay co -ed Sunday school classes.

Yes, that's becoming very common even in Circles.

Yeah.

Oh, yeah.

I had someone over here today that's doing that not my church, but in her church

even teaching a New Testament class to men and women so.

Yeah, that's that's becoming quite the thing.

So.

Very concerning to me.

But yeah, I've received a lot of persecution for that along with my some of my other views but you know.

It doesn't bother me it used to but I like what Justin Peter says I have to be concerned about Pleasing one and

that's the Lord not not my fellow man.

How about the reverse.

Have there been Negative experiences with over -the -top

patriarchal Christians who yes.

Oh Yeah.

Yes, there has been so but you know and you know, I'm sure because you're you're a radio

interviewer your broadcaster, so that's kind of a thing that's not coming in there some of the reformed churches

is You know the patriarchal view the micromanaging controlling demeaning

of women removing women where they are allowed to minister In the local body and I don't call to

that view either.

I think there are roles for women in the church, but they're confined to teaching women and

to You know teaching children things like that.

But I honestly this is a problem I mean I was with Phil Johnson and Justin in December at a

church and I was teaching the women and they were teaching the men and you know Phil even said that all not all

master's grads are alike and there is a group of them that a Very

patriarchal and I hear it when I go teach at these places and the pastors can

be very micromanaging controlling of their of their women and Kind of them

not in a good way.

So I wouldn't say that's the majority but there are some that that's happening and I don't agree with that either.

Phil spoke to that to me about that.

And yeah, we had quite the talk.

So I.

Remember standing next to a brother and at a church service a

conference and.

All of a sudden he threw his hymnal on the floor.

And then after the song was over I said I whispered to him.

Why on earth did you do that?

He said that him was written by a woman.

I.

Said well, I think that's pretty nutty that you would react that way but

How about.

I mean, you know, there are brilliant women out there including yourself.

There are women that are extremely biblically literate.

Is It a violation of biblical Complementarianism for a

woman ever to be a Teacher at a seminary for instance if she happens to be a Greek

scholar or a Hebrew scholar, you know we could go on and on with the kinds of

Backgrounds a woman might have and I have known on at least a couple of occasions in very

conservative seminaries that have a complementarian view of the church and

the family.

That have had a woman Lecture on certain issues that are involving

things like what I just mentioned is do you think that's appropriate?

You know my husband I used to have this conversation because I'm certified with National

Association of Certified Biblical Counselors have been for 20 years and I've spoken a lot of their conferences and

some of the women that Teach they open it up to men and I I Chosen to take the view of

women only and my husband often wisely said, you know.

That's that's not really quote the gathering of the church, but it is the gathering of the church.

You've got men and women coming together.

To hear and I do talk about scripture.

I exegete scripture and so for me, it's a violation still at that even though I'm not in the local

church.

So I would my view would be even in a seminary situation.

I personally think it would be a violation even though you're not quote in a church building.

You're in a place where there's a gathering of men and women and you're the authority all of a

sudden now.

Can men learn from women?

Of course it can.

Priscilla Quiller classic example with Apollos, but I think it's you know, all about

the setting and how she How she approaches the issue, but I I personally would

for me it would be a violation of my conscience to do something like that.

I would not.

Before that and I would have difficulty with that myself.

And as far as biblical counseling should a female biblical counselor ever counsel a man.

No, and I don't.

I made a mistake one time in my 20 years of being certified my husband I always did counseling together if there was male female,

but one time I made the mistake of Counseling a couple male and female in my office

at home, and I think he was in another room.

But that was a mistake in itself.

So that was a man and woman together.

That was the only time I ever did that but I've never counseled a man.

And I would not and my husband never counseled a female as I was with him.

So That's just our that was our policy.

I Think that's very unwise.

Yeah, and I think that what your husband did was very wise to always have a

female present when he was counseling a woman and because I have heard firsthand of the

nightmares that have developed when a Man

in the ministry who is a counselor or a pastor who is counseling thinks too

highly of his Self -control and all that it just

seems to crumble when when something like that can

develop into an intense and personal a relationship that crosses the

the norm of Friendships that a pastor would have with a with a congregant who's a

female.

Well, we have one more break.

It's going to be briefer or more brief, I don't know which one's grammatically correct

so if you have any Intention to send in a question, please send it in as soon as possible because we are

rapidly running out of time.

Chris aren't in a gmail .com.

Chris ARN z en a gmail .com.

Give us your first name at least city and state and country residents.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back.

James White of Alpha Omega ministries here.

I'm very excited to announce that my longtime friend Chris Arnzen of iron sharpens iron radio.

And I are heading down to Atlanta, Georgia again for the g3 national conference.

That's Thursday September 21st through Saturday the 23rd.

On a theme that I have been preaching teaching writing about and defending in live public debates for most of my life the

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Scott Brown here.

I hope you can join me and Chris Arnzen at the chief end of man conference in Ridgecrest

May 4th or 6th.

The chief end of man conference is a National conference of church and family life which exists

to proclaim the sufficiency of scripture.

At this conference You'll hear Paul Washer Joel Beakey Scott Aniel Josh Bice and lots of other

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Go to church and family life comm.

Church and family life Comm hope to see you there.

Yeah, I hope you can join us in Ridgecrest, North Carolina for this.

What looks like it will be a phenomenal conference.

We're now back with Susan Heck and one of the things that I

have most frequently heard from sisters in Christ

Who bear open their hearts and souls?

In agony is the fact that they have adult children who

have either abandoned the faith or have never come to Christ and They have

shared some very intensely sad stories some

Women who spend many nights sleepless nights In terror that their

child is going to be killed in an accident and go to hell.

That kind of thing.

What kind of counsel can you give to?

Women who seem to be so burdened about that obviously.

Mm -hmm.

That is truly.

I agree with you Chris.

I've heard more of that in recent days and I can never remember and I think you know social media

unfortunately has given these young people Strength

their strength in numbers.

And so they're listening to The voices out there in the world and that's just becoming

commonplace to be dishonoring to one's parents and to Start calling our parents

toxic or blaming Things that we should take responsibility for in our parents.

So I've heard that as well.

So, you know, it is it is challenging.

I've encouraged them to Do as much as possible to try to make restitution to try to

make appeals to their children.

We have women in our church whose kids don't even talk to them adult children.

So I've encouraged them to go through things like trusting God by Jerry Bridges when life

hurts.

I think that's a great help and hope.

Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah.

I've given away many copies of that and I've interviewed Jerry before he went home to the Lord.

I interviewed him on that book.

Yeah, I think that's a great great help and it it's hard.

But I have to say the lady that travels with me that happened to her both of her adult children

Turned against her and they she just kept faithful praying.

And they both now have restored their relationship with their mom and I'm very thankful for that.

But she went we years and they didn't speak to her.

So there is hope and help.

You just have to be patient.

I would encourage them to fast pray show unconditional love to those children show them Christ.

But it is becoming commonplace.

It's quite quite concerning and but just to be wait on the Lord be content trust

him and You know find some find some group of women that will be committed to pray

for you and with you on a regular basis.

Do you have anything that you'd care to say in summary form that.

That you that you want most etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners before we go up the air.

Sure, my husband used to say you don't have to always express your opinion.

So I stopped me.

He said you're so quiet.

So I I Said we tell me I don't always have to express my opinion.

So now be quiet, you know, I think I Think the thing I would say in

closing is to any woman just be faithful to the Lord loving with all your heart.

Spend spend massive amounts of time in the Word of God.

Love other people.

Look and wait for the the hope and return of our Lord Jesus Christ and don't waste your life.

Don't waste your time.

Pour it out to other women that are in need of Of help and hope so

there's so many women out there that would love the opportunity to be Mentored by another woman whether

you're a pastor's wife or not.

So pour your life into the lives of others love God and love others on these two things.

Hang all the law and the commandments.

So amen.

And if you want to find out more information about my guest Susan Heck and her biblical

counseling ministry Go to with the master org.

With the master org of course, do not forget about the G3

conference.

The g3 national conference, which is coming up will be here before you know

September 21st through the 23rd on the theme the sovereignty of God Where my

guest Susan Heck is one of the speakers.

She'll be speaking to the ladies and We have voting Balcom Stephen Lawson Paul Washer Phil Johnson

James White Justin Peters Ken Ham James Coates Virgil

Walker Daryl Bernard Harrison Scott Brown and more.

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I want to thank you so much Susan for being such an extraordinary guest.

I look took forward to you returning soon and frequently to the program.

I want to thank everybody who listened and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is

a Far greater Savior than you are a sinner.