March 29, 2023 Show with Susan Heck on “Equipping Pastors’ Wives”

Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer

George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend

Jim Thorpe, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us, iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet

Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is

Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 29th day of March, 2023.

I'm thrilled to have a first -time guest today who is going to be on the speaking roster at my favorite conference of all time that I've attended for many years now, manning an exhibitor's booth to represent

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. I'm speaking of the G3 National Conference, which is coming up September 21st through 23rd in Atlanta, Georgia, on the sovereignty of God.

And one of the many speakers who has a special message for the ladies who will be attending is

Susan Heck, founder of the ministry With the Master, and today we're going to be addressing the theme,

Equipping Pastors' Wives to Meet the Challenges of that Vital Role in the

Local Congregation. It's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Susan Heck.

Thank you. Good to be here. Well, tell us something about this ministry that you have started, that you have founded

With the Master. Well, it's been in existence for about 30 years.

I've been writing studies for women and other books, counseling books, but mainly expository studies for women.

I've written 16 and I've been traveling now for 25 years teaching women throughout the

U .S. and around the world. So it's been a busy time along with being a pastor's wife for 46 years until the

Lord took my husband home about a year and a half ago. So it's been very busy. Well, I trust the

Lord is giving you peace knowing where your husband now resides in the presence of his king.

And I'm sure that that buffered the blow to an enormous degree when you lost that precious part of your life.

It did. But God has been faithful to me and he has given me a lot more opportunities now for traveling.

And I think we're going to be out 40 times this year speaking. So a lady travels with me and runs my book table.

So it's been a joy to just see how he's a new chapter in my life. And I rest in that.

Amen. Well, if anybody wants more details on the ministry with the Master, go to WithTheMaster .org

and hopefully I will remember to repeat that toward the end of the program.

Now, tell us about what you will be speaking on at the upcoming

G3 National Conference this September in Atlanta, Georgia. All right.

Well, I was first asked to speak on the sovereignty of God as it relates to Scripture memorization. And then

I got an email saying they wanted me to speak on women's issues in the church because of the recent debate in the movement between the complementarianism and egalitarianism.

So I guess I'll be addressing that and also doing a pre -conference for women a day earlier.

I'm not sure exactly what's entailed in that. I think Erin Coates from Canada may be joining me for that as well.

So we haven't been quite told what our titles are supposed to be. Erin would be the wife of James Coates, the pastor who was arrested.

Yes. And I was just with her last weekend. She came from Canada to speak at a pastor's wife's conference that I hosted for pastor's wife.

So she was one of the speakers and mentioned that she may be coming to do that pre -conference with me.

Yeah, many of our listeners should remember that James Coates, Erin's husband, was arrested in Canada for refusing to shut down his worship services after COVID mandates were being laid down by the

Canadian government. And so tell us about this conference because I've never heard of a conference like it.

Well, I hadn't either. But about 20 years ago, I became very concerned about the pastor's wives as I'd go around and teach.

A lot of them were not involved in the conferences or retreats for women. And when I'd start asking, where's your pastor's wife?

Well, she's not involved. She's kind of isolated or just different things. And the ones that were there,

I would begin to try to visit with them and learn that the ministry was not something they enjoyed.

They were lonely. They were hurting. And so I mentioned to my husband, I said, you know, there's a huge need. Most women don't like the pastorate.

I personally loved it. It felt it was an honor to do that. And so it's a burden

I've had for two decades now. And so it's kind of finally came to fruition. And we hosted our first one last week in 300 women, and they're wanting another one already.

So I thought about Shepherd's Conference. They started with 77 men in John MacArthur's home.

And I think last month or this few weeks ago, they had almost 5000 men.

So we started with 300. So who knows where it'll go? Oh, yeah. Even the G3 conference began in a much smaller venue at the

Praise Mill Baptist Church in Douglasville, Georgia, when they first started having those conferences.

And now they have an arena that they not only had to leave a previous venue because of the lack of size, but even the venue that they have now, they had to change rooms because the registration is record -breaking now for this year's

G3 National Conference. And they outgrew already the original room that they were going to use.

Well, if anybody wants to find out more about the G3 conference on the sovereignty of God, September 21st through the 23rd in Atlanta, Georgia, where I will be manning an exhibitor's booth once again for Iron Trump and Zion Radio, go to g3men .org,

g3men .org forward slash events. And just to whet your appetite, speakers include

Votie Balcom, Stephen Lawson, Paul Washer, Phil Johnson of Grace to You Ministries, James White, Mike Riccardi, Justin Peters, Ken Ham, Owen Strand, Josh Bice, the founder of G3 Ministries, James Coates, who we just mentioned earlier,

Scott Aniel, Virgil Walker, Daryl Harrison, Scott Brown, and again, Susan Heck, who will be providing some messages for the ladies in attendance.

And I hope to see as many of you listening at this conference as possible.

And please, if you haven't registered yet, use my discount code that will get you 30 % off the registration fee.

And we'll also encourage Josh Bice and the folks at the G3 Ministries to continue advertising with Iron Trump and Zion Radio.

The discount code is G3ISIR, G3ISIR.

You will get 30 % off the registration fee when you go to g3men .org.

Well, before we enter into our topic today, equipping pastors' wives to meet the challenges of that vital role in the local congregation, we have a tradition here.

Whenever we have a first -time guest in the program, we have that guest give a summary of their salvation testimony, which would include any kind of religious atmosphere the guest has been raised in, and what kind of providential circumstances our

Sovereign Lord raised up in the guest's life that drew him or her to himself, and save them.

So let's hear your story. Alrighty. Well, I was brought up here in Oklahoma.

My father was a minister, and he obviously preached the gospel. And so when

I was 5, 13, and 18, I got saved and baptized, but it never took. And so I didn't want to go to hell, and I'd been through some challenging circumstances.

And I went off to Moody Bible Institute when I graduated from college, and I met

Phil Johnson, was my husband's roommate, soon -to -be husband's roommate. My dad baptized

Phil Johnson. Phil Johnson went to my church, and he said, my pastor's daughter's coming up here, and she tends to get in with the wrong crowd, and I want you to missionary date her.

So Phil introduced Doug and I. I thought only

Mormons did that. No, Phil introduced us, and so the rest is history.

A year later, we got married, and my husband almost called off the wedding the night before we got married, because he began to wonder if I really was a genuine believer, but he married me anyway.

And 10 years into my marriage, I mean, I honestly, to be truthful, it was difficult because of me.

My husband was in the ministry, and I was doing all the stuff, going to church and things like that, but my life never transformed, really.

In fact, I think my sin, I don't think I know, it just got worse and worse. And at the age of 30, the

Lord, through some circumstances, allowed me to be in a hospital for two weeks, four more weeks at home, and isolated, really in isolation.

Back then, no cell phones. I had to really look at my life, and it was a mess.

And that was when I repented, gave my life to the Lordship of Christ, and totally transformed me.

I read my Bible every day, but it meant nothing until God saved me. And so my husband was in the first graduating class at Master's Seminary.

Phil Johnson told him they were starting a seminary program. So right after the Lord saved me, we headed out to California.

And I mean, I was just drinking in the Scriptures and loving my new life in Christ.

And so that was 37 years ago, and I had to get baptized the fourth and final time.

So I called my parents to tell them I was going to be baptized again. And my mom said, I'm not surprised

I've seen the change in you. So the Lord for 37 years now,

I've been walking with Him, loving Him, and no longer a slave to sin, but a slave to Christ.

And it's been quite a journey, but thankful for the life He's given me and thankful for my upbringing.

But I do believe that decisional regeneration can really be damaging in many ways to people by the way

I was, you know, walk in the aisle, pray a prayer that you're saved, and that's not salvation. And I know for me, it wasn't until I was 30 that I really saw myself as a sinner.

And God saved me, and I'm so thankful. I'm so thankful. So that's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

Well, I'm assuming you got re -baptized because—and

I'm actually very glad to hear that because in Baptistic circles, it seems to be rare, very rare for someone who was baptized in a day, an age of their lives, when they know that they were not truly saved, they were still living in rebellion, got baptized for any number of reasons.

It could have been that they were a little child and had a childlike understanding of just being obedient to the parents who wanted them to be baptized, or it could have been just a whole host of reasons that they got baptized when they were not truly born again.

And then when later they become saved in reality by the grace and mercy of Christ, it saddens me that many, if not most

Baptists, don't get baptized again. And in reality, it would be the first baptism because repentance and faith are elements required of a candidate of baptism.

So I'm assuming that's why you were baptized again. That's right. I wanted to be baptized as a genuine believer, and so my husband baptized me for the last time, the fourth and final time.

So it was embarrassing, but you know what? It was good. As a pastor's wife—I was already a pastor's wife—but

I was able to give my testimony of repentance and faith in Christ, and it was a joy.

So I'm very thankful. Praise God. And by the way, you will be pleased to know that this

Monday, returning to my program after many, many, many interviews on Iron Trip and Zion Radio, is

Phil Johnson. Phil Johnson, he did hold the record, and he still might hold the record for the most frequently interviewed guest on Iron Trip and Zion, and he is going to be addressing a controversial issue.

We are going to be discussing the growing movement, tragically, among Reformed Christians who are opposing lordship salvation.

So that at one time, the dispensationalists cornered the market on that opposition, especially when

Dr. MacArthur first wrote the gospel according to Jesus, but now we have even Presbyterians and other

Reformed Christians claiming to be opposed to that. So that's what

Phil and I will be discussing this coming Monday. So mark your calendars, folks, if you would like to hear

Phil Johnson again. It's been quite a while since he's been on the show. I don't even know why that has been such a long absence, but we're glad he's coming back.

Well, now let's enter into this theme that we have, equipping pastors' wives to meet the challenges of that vital role in the local congregation.

Now, I guess where we have the qualifications for an elder, there is a part of those qualifications that involves ruling his household well, but specifically for the qualifications of a pastor's wife, you don't have specifically and clearly laid out those kind of details other than things that we can generally absorb from the scriptures.

And I have come to believe that when a church is calling a man to be their pastor, they need to look very closely at the wife as well, not that she is just a submissive woman who is not involved in scandalous sin of some kind, but I think that there's a lot more that a church should be desiring from the wife of a pastor, not that she is obviously going to be holding to offices in the church that are unbiblical for a woman to hold.

But would you agree with that, that there seems to be not much or too little consideration into the wife of the man a church is calling to be a pastor?

Yes, I agree with you, and I think that it's very imperative that the wife be interviewed as well as the children.

I think it's wise. I know my husband did that. Anytime a new elder was coming on board, he interviewed the wife and the children, both.

And so, yes, I do. And it is a shame because I know many pastors' wives do not enjoy the pastorate.

They're not really supportive of their husband's role, and that's going to make for not a good situation in the local church if a wife is not supportive and encouraging her husband as he shepherds the flock.

And I think she should be helping him shepherd the women. That's a good role for her.

And it's grievous to me when I see women that don't—they're not involved at all in isolating themselves, and they just don't see that as their role.

So tell us some of the ways that women that need to be further equipped to live out the role as the wife of a pastor.

Well, I think first of all, she needs to make sure that she sees her primary responsibility is to minister to her husband.

I know I was very sensitive to that, the Lord's Day especially, and making sure that I was available.

I tried not to bring up anything controversial on the Lord's Day, making sure that he had time that he needed to prepare, and he did.

And Saturdays were always kind of a sacred day in our home. So I think there's a lot of where she needs to die to herself.

Her husband has an enormous responsibility. He's going to be opening the sacred text, and he doesn't need a wife that's nagging him or making his life miserable a few days before he's going to be in the pulpit.

So I think she needs to learn to be selfless and think about him above herself as we're commanded in Scripture.

I think that might even entail making sure the children are—the night before church, she's got things ready for them, and she makes everything easy for him, especially those days where he has to minister the

Word of God. She's also not realizing the sacrifice for the family.

I know we would tell our children growing up, we'll do this, but things may come up. We may have hospital calls.

We may have somebody in the church that suddenly passes, and your dad and I have to go. So they knew that, and consequently, my children both love the ministry, and my son's a pastor, and my son -in -law is a pastor.

And they said they loved growing up in a minister's home and seeing the joy of serving. But unfortunately,

I don't think a lot of pastors' wives do that. But ministering and giving of oneself to the body is a joy.

So I think they need help in that. I think they need encouragement on how to handle criticism, not let that ruffle their feathers.

They need to learn how to be content, whether it's a good time in the church or a time of struggle.

There's just a lot of needs they have. And I'll tell you, one of the things I'm doing now is now that I'm a widow,

I'm pouring a lot of my time into pastor's wives. I think right now I'm discipling 12 pastor's wives just around the

U .S., just trying to help them and encourage them and just be there for them.

And I know that it has ministered to them. It's ministered to me to be able to try to encourage them.

And so I have a huge burden for this. And I want these women to come alongside their husband and look at that as an honor and a privilege and a joy to be able to be in this service.

So I would like to even have some classes for them, just like we did this weekend, and some workshops on how to handle criticism, how to raise your children in the minister's home, things like that.

There needs to be some training for these women and help. Now, it's not a sin to be quiet and introverted and not very sociable, but those character traits, when it comes to being possessed by the wife of a pastor, they can create problems, obviously.

And because of the fact that people may just wrongly read this woman, they may think that she's aloof.

They may think she doesn't like them. They may think she's cliquish. It could be a whole host of things.

But do you have any counsel on how women in that category can overcome that so that the congregation experiences a sense of love from her and care and compassion and interest in their lives?

Yeah, I do, because honestly, I was that woman. My husband was very outgoing and I was more introvert, but I just had to learn that it wasn't about me.

And so year after year after year, I just got more comfortable going to meet people, guests, strangers.

Our home was a revolving door. We had people in our home all the time for dinner. And so I just had to get out of myself, but just to lovingly come alongside and encourage her, reach out to two or three new people today and just give her assignments on that,

I think would be helpful. But I think there's a lot of unnecessary fear, fear of man, fear of rejection, fear of saying the wrong thing.

But I believe that with help, she can learn how to overcome her personality or her introvertness or whatever.

And I was that person. I'm still not a big crowd person, but I think it's funny that that's the role

I'm in right now. So God has a way of stretching us and sanctifying us.

But it is sad. I was at a church a few weeks ago in Connecticut, and the pastor, I was telling him about what

I was getting ready to do, the pastor's wife thing. And I told him, I love the pastor. And he said, you're the first pastor's wife

I've ever heard say that. He said, every pastor's wife I've ever talked to has told me that they don't like the pastorate.

And I said, bingo, that's why we're having this conference. We want to encourage these women to see this as a joy and a delight.

Well, when we come back from the first commercial break, I'd like you to share with us some of the reasons why women who are the wives of pastors don't like that position they're in.

And if anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own for Susan Heck, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

And obviously, we would never want somebody writing in and saying, I'm a member of First Baptist Church of such and such town and such and such city, and I don't like the pastor's wife.

Obviously, thank God I'm taking listener questions by email these days because when you have the call -in format that I used to have, those kinds of things could happen.

But we look forward to hearing from you and your questions for Susan Heck. Don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages from our sponsors.

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Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio listener who mentions Chris Arnson of Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio. So that's royaldiadem .com,

royaldiadem .com. We're now back with Susan Heck, and she is the founder of With the

Master, and we are addressing equipping pastors' wives to meet the challenges of that vital role in the local congregation, and we're also promoting the 2023

G3 National Conference, where Susan will be speaking to the ladies present at that conference.

And if you have a question for Susan, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com,

give us your first name at least, city and state of residence and country of residence. And Susan, we were just about to enter into some of the reasons that you have found in your exhaustive experience where women have confided in you,

I do not want to be a pastor's wife, and I'm stuck in this position. I really don't like it.

I hate it. I wish my husband would resign so I could just get out of this situation.

Yep, that's true. Thankfully, not all of them.

Well, what would be some of the reasons women have given you why they are feeling that or believing that? Well, I think that they have a hard time giving up their time with their husband and family issues, and they don't want to give up their time for their husband to have to give to the church.

Many of them have been through church splits, and they don't know how to handle that where they're rejected by people that they thought were their friends.

So a lot of people don't leave a church correctly. And so there's a lot of division and slander and things like that.

And so that they don't know how to handle the criticism of their husband or themselves or their children.

And honestly, I think it boils down to a lack of love for the church.

And that was one of the things that Aaron Coates spoke on this last weekend was, as a pastor's wife, you've got to see the church the way

Christ sees it. And we have to have a love for the body of Christ. This is His body. And so I don't believe they see the overall bigger picture of the church of Jesus Christ and what it's meant to establish, why it was established, what's it meant to accomplish here while we're waiting for our new bodies and glorification.

So that was helpful. I know Martha P. spoke last weekend on what she wishes every pastor's wife knew.

And that material was profound. That was our beginning session. And I hope it was helpful to the pastor's wives that were there, because she dealt with some issues that they need to know.

And so, yeah, I think it's just a lack of maybe not being trained in seminary or wherever their husband got trained.

There's nothing even then. I know I was blessed to be trained at Master's Seminary and Seminary Wives by a couple of ladies, and we had a program for us.

But I know most seminaries don't have that for the wives as their husbands are preparing. They're not preparing the wives for what is the pastorate even like?

What should you expect? How do you handle certain things? And so I think that's imperative.

Now, what would you suggest that a church does if the congregation seems to come to observe that this new pastor that they had for, you know, perhaps weeks or months, the wife is not what they were hoping for.

Is there a way to, with tact and with humility and out of a genuine motive of Christian love, for women in the church to approach that pastor's wife and sit down with her perhaps over a meal and just unburden their hearts about the situation?

Yeah, I think that would be great along with what I think would be ideal, honestly, Chris, is to have an older godly woman within the body of Christ that can take that pastor's wife under her wing, meet with her on a weekly basis, spend time in prayer with her, let her feel questions she may have or burdens she may have, knowing that it's kept in a confidential situation, and just to be a

Titus II woman to her. And that's what I think would be the most ideal, and just to find an old seasoned saint that would be willing to pour into this woman.

I know I'm, you know, I have two women that have discipled me for over 37 years.

One's 90 now, one's 80, and I don't know where I would be without them. They really helped me through the formative years as a pastor's wife, and they're still pouring into me, and I'm very thankful for them.

And I think that's the model that Christ has set for us in the church, as an older woman helping a young woman.

So I would say the pastor's wife is not exempt from being discipled. She's not exempt from accountability, and so I think an older woman would lovingly go to her and say, hey, you know, why don't you come over for coffee this week, and build a friendship, build a relationship, confidentiality, prayer, support.

I think that would be ideal. Also, you know, Mary Somerville has a great book called

One with the Shepherd on being a pastor's wife, where she deals with pretty much any situation a pastor's wife might be facing, and I've gone through that book with many pastor's wives just trying to help them.

So yeah, I think if she gets there and they find out, oh boy, she's not what we had hoped for or dreamed for.

You know, you don't hire the wife, but she does come along with the package, along with the kids too. Sometimes the preacher's kids, they'd probably like to get rid of as well.

They say they're the worst, but that's not true. I am thankful for my two children, but yeah,

I think that's the model, and that's what I would do. And that's why I'm doing what I am doing. I just had another pastor's wife this weekend at the conference.

She said, well, would you disciple me? And I said, sure. And so we're going to talk next week on the phone, and I'm going to try to guide and help her.

And so in whatever way I can be used to help these women, I want to help them.

Well, can you repeat the title and publisher of that book? Because I'd like to have our listeners, especially if they are wives of pastors and even pastors, if they're listening, they want to get this book.

Sure. It's called One with the Shepherd by Mary Somerville.

Her husband, Bob Somerville, is a professor or was at Masters College and Seminary.

He's written several books himself, but excellent book. Excellent. Do you know who publishes it?

I do not. It's down the hall. Well, if you go to CVBBS .com,

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, who sponsored this program, if you ask for that book, One with the

Shepherd by Mary Somerville, that's correct? That's the title? If they don't have it, they'll order it for you.

So the CVBBS .com and make sure you tell them that you heard about them from Iron Sherpa's Iron Radio.

Let's see here. We have an anonymous listener. The anonymous listener says, if a young man who has made it clear he desires to enter the ministry, perhaps he's a seminarian, and he has asked a woman to be his wife and they are engaged, what things are most important that this woman should be contemplating very seriously during self -examination to see if she is the type of woman who would be best suited for this young man who has a calling from God to shepherd

God's people? Well, what I would tell her, she has to have a love for the church.

She, I think, needs to be a woman of strength, a woman that is self -controlled, a woman that really is a model

Titus too, loves her husband. If they're children, she'll love them. She's pure. She sees her home as her haven and she wants to make it a place that is comfortable for her husband.

She's benevolent. She's wanting to help other people and she understands the role of the woman in the home.

That's probably the most important thing. I know a lot of pastor's wives that love it. They just see my daughter as a pastor's wife and she sees her main ministry to her husband.

My daughter -in -law is a pastor's wife as well, but she's a lot more proactive. She's a lot more active in the church in serving and using, but my daughter's at home with children.

I think she needs to be a Titus too woman, first of all, but see the church as something that she loves deeply.

Like I said, our home was a revolving door. There probably was hardly a day went by that we didn't have someone in our home, whether it was for dinner, discipleship, or just to visit.

She needs to be a woman of contentment and go with the flow.

She's got to be willing to be flexible. I know that's a mouthful, but that's what

I've learned through the years. Now, when you say that a woman should know with certainty that she loves the church, that could be taken in at least a couple of different ways.

There can be a general and theological way in which the person says to themselves,

I know that Christ died for his church, therefore I must love his church.

In fact, it's interesting that when Saul of Tarsus was on his journey to continue persecuting

Christians, when Christ Jesus stopped him in his tracks on the road to Damascus, he asked

Saul, why do you persecute me? He didn't say the church.

He didn't say my disciples, my followers. He said, why do you persecute me? He so closely connected the church with himself that he made that powerful statement.

So those are things that we should remember about the church whenever we are disgruntled and impatient and wanting to abandon ship and all those things.

But what other way is she to love the church? It may be a specific church.

Her husband might already either be the pastor of a church or the church that he desires to receive a call from to enter it in the ministry.

It might be the church that he was raised in. He might be a member of that church already. And his wife just knows about, or his fiancee

I should say, knows about all of the problems in that congregation. And she has bitterness perhaps that she has to work through.

And we're supposed to love our brothers and sisters in Christ, but liking them can be an entirely different story.

So tell us about that other way other than the obvious theological one that we are to love the church.

Yeah, I love the poem, to live with the saints above, that'll be glory, but to live with the saints below, that's another story.

So, you know, that is challenging. And when

I'm talking about the church, I mean, I'm talking about the church universal, but I'm also talking about the church that her husband says yes to the call as pastor.

And, you know, goodness, I was a pastor's wife for 46 years, and there were challenging people, but I am to agape them.

Do I have to filet -o them? Maybe not so much. I'd like to filet them sometimes, but not to filet -o.

But just learning to love in the sense of what do they need? And sometimes they might need you to speak the truth and love to them.

Sometimes they might need somebody, a shoulder to cry on. So whatever that need is, but we just, we need to love the individuals in the church as well.

And so, and again, that's not always easy. You know, that is not always easy.

And I understand that. We went through some hard times in the three churches my husband planted.

It wasn't always a good time, but we stuck in there and my husband was a faithful man.

So, but yeah, she needs to, she needs to love the church universally, but also the individuals.

And again, that's where, you know, her husband can be a help to her. My husband was a huge help to me and also other, other people within the body of Christ.

And, you know, she'd be wise to, to study up on 1 Corinthians 13.

So. Well, thank you, Anonymous. And if you are a first -time questioner, let me know and you will receive a free

New American Standard Bible, compliments of the publishers of the NASB and compliments of Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com.

We'll ship it out to you at no charge to you or to us. We have

Susan Margaret in Dauphin County, Pennsylvania, who asks, do you have any counsel for a pastor's wife who may be stirring up problems unintentionally in the congregation because they think she's throwing her weight around too much and acting more like a co -pastor to her husband than a pastor's wife?

Oh, wow. Yeah. I think that needs to be taken care of quickly. As Jesus said in Sermon on the

Mount, you know, do it quickly. So I would, if, if this woman has a privy to that information, she's seeing that I would just as soon as possible, lovingly take her side and, or invite her over for coffee or something and, and share, speak the truth in love and in a gentle, humble way, consider yourself and just share, share lovingly what you're seeing and the concerns you have.

And you know, I would definitely take care of that soon because she could be very divisive and, and destroy her husband's ministry there in that church.

So she needs to learn how to have a meek and quiet spirit to be calm and collected and not aggressive.

So yeah, that woman should probably go to her in love and humility.

And of course it could be a false perception by the people making the complaints because she might be just a brilliant woman who's very creative and just has a lot of ideas that she believes will benefit the church.

And she is just making those known through her husband and so on, not acting as a, a separate agent unto herself, but, but, you know, speaking through the, their ministry of marriage that they have.

So that's another thing that people have to be careful about is judging people's motives and so on.

Or maybe just get to know her and ask her some questions. Hey, I've noticed that, you know, you really, you're pretty active in this area, you do this, or just maybe get a open dialogue with her and maybe get to know her a little bit, maybe get to know why she does what she does.

We have another anonymous listener who says, how important is it for a pastor's wife to open up her home to the congregation?

I'm not saying obviously all of them at the same time, but over the course of years, making sure, especially when the church is relatively small, that every member does have that opportunity to visit with them.

Well, it's imperative. It's part of the qualifications of an elder. He has, he's to be given to hospitality.

So it is her role and responsibility to make sure that her husband remains qualified.

And that is, he is to be given over to hospitality. My husband would have had the whole church live with us if I'd let him.

So he loves, he loves people and I love him too, but in, you know, not quite as much not to have him live with me.

So she needs help in that area. Maybe she's doesn't know how to open her home.

I mean, she's trying to put on a fancy, you know, five course meal when she could just order a pizza and have people over.

It doesn't have to be a complicated thing. You know, people want to get, you know,

Peter says, it's the elders who are among you. They're, they're with you. And so the church needs to get to know the pastor.

They need to get to know his wife. They need to be a part of their lives. We intertwine our lives together.

So she just needs some help in that. Maybe some education in that, how to do that simply, creatively.

But yes, her home should be open. And that's one of the things since my husband's been gone for a year and a half,

I really miss that. You know, it's just me, but we had very active things going on in our home.

That's no more. So yeah, she just needs some help in that. Perhaps you even know of the very well -known situation that was used mightily of God in the life of Rosaria Butterfield.

Have you? Yep. With the pastor. Yep. Yes. Where she was not only, not only an open lesbian, but a leftist hardcore leftist.

Yeah. And she was pleasantly shocked by the invitation to dinner by a local pastor where she lived upstate

New York. And that blossomed into a friendship and the Lord used that to save her and also to introduce her to her husband, who was a friend of that couple.

So you never know what's going to happen when you do not. You know,

I can't tell you through the years, Chris, how many people, because we would have all our new people over for dinner at some point.

And most would say you're the first pastor that's ever had us in your home for dinner.

And so that that was, again, I think a little bit of an indictment on pastors and their wives in general.

So we just made it our policy anytime we had a couple that would visit three or four times while we find a time in our schedule, we could have them over.

So it means a lot. It means a lot. And we have to go to our midway break right now.

Please be patient with us, folks. The midway break is a bit longer than the other breaks in the show, because Grace Life Radio 90 .1

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We'll be right back. Don't go away. James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.

I'm very excited to announce that my longtime friend Chris Arnson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and I are heading down to Atlanta, Georgia again for the

G3 National Conference. That's Thursday, September 21st through Saturday, the 23rd, on a theme that I've been preaching, teaching, writing about and defending in live public debates for most of my life, the sovereignty of God.

I'll be joined on the speaking roster by Steve Lawson, Voti Baucom, Paul Washer, Virgil Walker, Scott Anuel and Josh Bice, founder of G3 Ministries.

And there's more great news. Chris Arnson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio can get you a 30 % discount off the registration fee.

Go to g3min .org. That's g3min .org and enter promo code

G3ISIR. That's G3ISIR for the 30 % discount.

Chris Arnson and I look forward to seeing you all Thursday, September 21st through Saturday, the 23rd, the

G3 National Conference in Atlanta, Georgia on the sovereignty of God. Make sure you stop by the

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Go to g3min .org and enter promo code G3ISIR for your 30 % discount off the registration fee.

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Here's Joe Reilly, a listener in Ireland who wants you to know about a guest on the show he really loves hearing interviewed,

Dr. Joe Moorcraft. I'm Joe Reilly, a faithful Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listener here in Atai in County Kildare, Ireland.

Going back to 2005, one of my very favorite guests on Iron Sharpens Iron is

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Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming is in Forsyth County, a part of the Atlanta metropolitan area.

Heritage is a thoroughly biblical church, unwaveringly committed to Westminster standards, and Dr.

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If you visit, have them Joe Roydigan, Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listener, from Itoi in County Kildare, Ireland, send you.

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Again, I'm Pastor Anthony Uvino, and thanks for listening. Dan is the

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Before I return to my guest Susan Heck, I just have a couple of more important announcements to make.

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The theme will be The Gospel, Removed by Rome, Rescued by the

Reformers, and Rejected by Modern Evangelicals. If you'd like to register for that three -day event, which is also free, send me an email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com

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So if you are in that situation, you do not have a Christ -honoring church home where you are a member, send me an email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com

and put I need a church in the subject line. That's also the email address where you can send in a question to Susan Heck, who is the founder of the

Ministry with the Master, and we are discussing equipping pastors' wives to meet the challenges of that vital role in the local congregation.

That's chrisarnsen at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, city and state, country of residence, and only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

And we do have another such anonymous question. The question to you,

Susan, is should a pastor's wife ever make public theological differences she may have with her husband, even if they are of secondary importance?

Well, I think that depends on the situation. I know my husband would have often question and answer times on Sunday night, and so during those times of Q &A based on his sermons or just anything they wanted to ask, it might have been made known.

He might say something like, well, my wife and I, we differ on this issue or something like that.

They were all always secondary issues, but how she does that should be careful.

In the church gathering,

I think I would be very cautious about that unless it's really a situation that's led by her husband.

I think in a gathering with women, if she is talking about it, I know my husband and I had a little bit different view on divorce.

And so when we were counseling a couple, I always let him do all the counseling until he would turn to me and ask me.

So I would just say we differ on that, but I would give my opinion if he thought it was wise for me to do that.

So I think she should be very cautious. I don't think that means she lies or anything, but I think she wants to honor and respect her husband and his position.

And so I think if it's done in a Christlike way, well, my husband and I, we differ on eschatology.

He's a dispensationalist and I'm this, but we don't make that an issue in our home. And we've learned to respect one another's views and things like that.

So I think it's all in how she words it. She can word it in a way that is very respectful to his position, or she can word it in a way where she makes him look like a dunderhead, and that's not right.

So I think it's all in how she does it. And don't forget, Anonymous, if you're a first -time questioner, give us your full name and mailing address because you have won a free

New American Standard Bible. And that goes for any first -time questioner who has a question today.

And always, you will receive a free Bible. And we'll get that out to you, thanks to our friends who publish the

NASB, and also thanks to Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cbbbs .com, who sponsor this program.

Well, since all pastors' wives, obviously, are women, perhaps you could go through some more general issues that you have encountered being in ministry to women for so many years, decades.

What would be some of the most common things, if there is such a thing, that women approach you about who are believers in Christ, but they're having difficulties in their lives in one way or another?

Can you go through some of those things and let our listeners know the kind of counsel you've given women?

Yes. I've dealt with pastor's wives who struggle with depression, and they have a hard time seeing their days as good, and they dread some of them getting out of bed in the morning.

So I've gotten to go through Bob Somerville's book, If I'm a Christian, Why Am I Depressed, with them and just trying to help them.

I think another common thing is their children. That's a big issue because pastor's kids are no different than anyone else's.

They sin. They make mistakes. Some of them make grave mistakes. Some of them exemplify their fathers from staying in the ministry.

So just trying to navigate and help her through that and how to parent her children.

I know in a situation right now, a pastor's wife is wondering, she asked me, how do

I tell my children about what's getting ready to happen in our church, and it's not a good situation?

So just giving her guidance and wisdom on how to tell the child. Certainly the age of the child is very important.

Some young children don't need to know certain things going on. I think when you have teenage, young adult children, they can figure out something's going on.

So we were very careful what we told our children. So just guiding her through that,

I think that's a huge issue. I know of one pastor's wife, she was taking her kids to another church, and I didn't think that was a good idea during the week for their youth activities, and I don't think that's a wise precedent to set.

So it looks a little strange, but the issues are varied, just like it is in any situation.

But just helping guide her through those things, how to prepare for Sunday morning worship by getting prepared on Saturday night.

I think that's imperative, teaching her how to do that so that Sunday morning's not chaos before they're trying to go to the house of the

Lord for worship and being with God's people. But I think honestly, the thing that I see the most that pastor's wives struggle with is how to handle personal criticism towards them, their husband, or their children.

That is the number one thing that is challenging for them. And I would imagine that often, especially when it comes to the children, the criticisms are valid.

Probably. Yeah, probably. Well, how does a congregant respect the office of the eldership and tactfully let the pastor know that the children, that the elder's children, are doing something that is annoying, dangerous, disrespectful?

You could go on and on with a list of why somebody would complain about an elder's child.

How do you do that without being viewed as being disrespectful? Right. I think for one thing, if the child is a small child, that's one thing

I do think it would be wise to go to the elder or his wife, pastor or his wife, and say, hey,

I noticed your child was, in fact, we've had this happen in years past where they were running through the church and almost causing someone to trip and fall or end up in the way of an older person that's in a walker.

So just saying, hey, I'm not sure if you realize it, but your child is running in the church and they almost caused this woman to trip.

And so could you please watch what they're doing? I think if it's a teenager, I think it'd be wise to go to that person directly, as the scriptures say, and just say, hey,

I noticed that you were, I've noticed you're doing this or this habit you're doing in church or whatever is not appropriate.

Or I've noticed you're playing games on your phone while your father's preaching. And that's not wise.

You need to put your phone down and show respect to your father. So I think that the age is important.

Young teenager, teenager, college age, pastors, kids, go to them as you would an adult.

Young children, it might be wiser to go to the parents and say, hey, I noticed they're doing things that are, you might want to keep your eye on that.

And so I know some pastors wives, they get busy. They're talking to people before and after church and they're really not paying attention to what their kids are doing, as do most parents don't pay attention.

So I think some good observation skills would be in hand here for that.

B .B. in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania asks, forgive me if I missed this, but I heard your guest was a part of a conference for pastors wives.

And I was wondering if she could list some of the primary speaking sessions that took place.

Sure. Martha P. started out with what she wishes every pastor's wife knew.

She also had a breakout session on woke or awake. I spoke on speaking the truth and love in a post -truth world.

And I also spoke on what to do when you don't know what to do. Erin Coates spoke on loving the church and also a message on being velvet steel.

Naphtali Pillage spoke on the importance of being connected to the vine. And Lisa Hughes spoke on Psalm 37 and then also on being your husband's helper.

All that is on, you can go to my website withthemaster .org or shepherdswife .com

and you can hear all those messages. So all pastor's wives that are listening or all you that are listening that know pastor's wives, please send them to those websites so they can hear those messages and be encouraged and helped in their vocation as a wife of a pastor.

Great. And that is somehow connected with the Shepherds Conference run by Dr.

John MacArthur, correct? Well, John endorsed it as well as Phil Johnson.

They both wrote endorsements or had video endorsements for it. It wasn't necessarily a

TMS offspring, but we did take the name from Shepherd's Wife and there were a lot of TMS graduates there, pastor's wives, but we also had some from other places, excuse me, some from other places too.

So, but we did get endorsement from John and from Phil. So that was a good deal.

And for those of you who are wondering what TMS is, it's the Master's Seminary. And we have another anonymous listener who says, have you ever heard of a case where a pastor either voluntarily stepped down from his office or was forced to step down by the other elders in the church because of the wife not living up to what a pastor's role, pastor's wife's role should be?

And I'm not talking about scandalous sin. I'm just talking about ordinary reasons that might make a woman less desirable for a pastor's wife.

I have never heard of that. No, I have not heard of a pastor being forced to resign or willingly resigning because his wife was viewed that way.

So I'm sure there have been those cases. I've just not been made aware of them.

Okay. And again, anonymous, if you are a first -time questioner, let us know so you can receive a

New American Standard Bible for free. And let's see here. We have

C .J. from Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York. Is there a way that you suggest that these types of shepherds' wives conferences that you founded can be multiplied around the country where smaller church groups can try to duplicate what you're doing?

Yes, that is our desire. We hope to host another one next year, a regional one.

And we have also talked to Aaron about maybe doing something in Canada. So I could foresee in the future, like I said, this was our first one, but I could see in the future that we could host regional ones, kind of like what

G3 does and other bigger organizations do, and then host regional conferences for the different parts of the

United States. And I think that would be such a help to these women. And in helping the women, that helps their husbands.

Amen. Just out of curiosity, since you are obviously a conservative

Christian woman, more appropriately identified as a biblical Christian woman, and you are complementarian, you believe in the headship, the male headship of the church and the household, have you ever had extremely negative experiences with either just your average neighbor, acquaintance, friend, or family member who is a woman and more of an overt feminist, or perhaps even professing

Christian women? Because obviously, as you know, feminism has definitely infiltrated even the evangelical church.

It's not just the liberal mainline churches. Even evangelical churches very often have the problem of feminism that has infiltrated in and taken over, and the churches might be even matriarchal in their presence.

But tell us about that. Have you experienced that?

And how have you sought to overcome those kinds of negative experiences? Yes, I've had several in the 25 years

I've been speaking, especially when I go to things like G3, where it's obvious I'm teaching women only.

But I've had this happen at counseling conferences I've spoken at, homeschool conferences

I've spoken at, other conferences that I've been at, and where actually men have tried to get in, even though it's very clear on the door, it says women only.

I've received a lot of flack for that. I've had to even be kind of hard -nosed about it, and I've gotten a lot of persecution for that.

But I'm very clear about what my convictions are, and they're not only my convictions, they were my husband's and my church.

So it's not popular today. So I've been asked to compromise through the years, but I haven't given in on that, nor will

I. But yeah, there's a group out there, and it's a growing group, honestly, Chris. It's kind of concerning.

I would say my views on women preachers was the norm, but it's becoming, as we know, it's becoming quite in vogue.

And even in some fundamental churches, women are being now allowed to teach co -ed

Sunday school classes and things like that, and it's getting more and more common, and a huge violation of 1

Timothy. Now when you say teach co -ed classes, are you speaking of adults? Yes, co -ed

Sunday school classes. Yes, that's becoming very common. Even in fundamentalist circles?

Yeah. Oh yeah. I had someone over here today that's doing that, not my church, but in her church, even teaching a

New Testament class to men and women. So yeah, that's becoming quite the thing.

So very concerning to me. But yeah, I've received a lot of persecution for that along with some of my other views, but it doesn't bother me.

It used to, but I like what Justin Peter says, I have to be concerned about pleasing one, and that's the

Lord, not my fellow man. How about the reverse?

Have there been negative experiences with over the top patriarchal

Christians who... Yes. Oh yeah.

Yes, there has been. But you know, I'm sure because you're a radio interviewer, you're a broadcaster, so that's kind of a thing that's coming in some of the reformed churches is the patriarchal view, the micromanaging, controlling, demeaning of women, removing women where they are allowed to minister in the local body, and I don't call to that view either.

I think there are roles for women in the church, but they're confined to teaching women and to teaching children, things like that.

But honestly, this is a problem. I mean, I was with Phil Johnson and Justin in December at a church, and I was teaching the women, and they were teaching the men.

And Phil even said that not all master's grads are alike, and there is a group of them that are very patriarchal.

And I hear it when I go teach at these places, and the pastors can be very micromanaging, controlling of their women, and kind of not in a good way.

So I wouldn't say that's the majority, but there are some that that's happening, and I don't agree with that either.

Phil spoke to me about that, and yeah, we had quite the talk. I remember standing next to a brother at a church service, a conference, and all of a sudden, he threw his hymnal on the floor.

And then after the song was over, I said, I whispered to him, why on earth did you do that?

He said, that hymn was written by a woman. Oh, dear. Yee! And I just said, well,

I think that's pretty nutty that you would react that way. But how about,

I mean, you know, there are brilliant women out there, including yourself. There are women that are extremely biblically literate.

Is it a violation of biblical complementarianism for a woman ever to be a teacher at a seminary, for instance, if she happens to be a

Greek scholar or a Hebrew scholar? You know, we could go on and on with the kinds of backgrounds a woman might have.

And I have known on at least a couple of occasions in very conservative seminaries that have a complementarian view of the church and the family that have had a woman lecture on certain issues that are involving things like what

I just mentioned. Do you think that's appropriate? You know, my husband and I used to have this conversation because I'm certified with the

National Association of Certified Biblical Counselors, have been for 20 years, and I've spoken at a lot of their conferences.

And some of the women that teach, they open it up to men. And I've chosen to take the view of women only.

And my husband often wisely said, you know, that's not really, quote, the gathering of the church, but it is the gathering of the church.

You've got men and women coming together to hear. And I do talk about scripture.

I exegete scripture. And so for me, it's a violation still at that, even though I'm not in the local church.

So my view would be even in a seminary situation, I personally think it would be a violation, even though you're not, quote, in a church building.

You're in a place where there's a gathering of men and women, and you're the authority all of a sudden.

Now, can men learn from women? Of course they can. Priscilla Quiller, classic example with Apollos.

But I think it's, you know, all about the setting and how she approaches the issue.

But I personally would, for me, it would be a violation of my conscience to do something like that.

I would not be for that. And I would have difficulty with that myself.

And as far as biblical counseling, should a female biblical counselor ever counsel a man?

No, and I don't. I made a mistake one time in my 20 years of being certified.

My husband and I always did counseling together if there was male and female. But one time I made the mistake of counseling a couple male and female in my office at home, and I think he was in another room, but that was a mistake in itself.

So that was a man and woman together. That was the only time I ever did that. But I've never counseled a man, and I would not.

And my husband never counseled a female unless I was with him. So that was our policy.

I think that's very unwise. Yeah, and I think that what your husband did was very wise to always have a female present when he was counseling a woman.

And because I have heard firsthand of the nightmares that have developed when a man in the ministry who is a counselor or a pastor who is counseling thinks too highly of his self -control and all that.

It just seems to crumble when something like that can develop into an intense and personal relationship that crosses the norm of friendships that a pastor would have with a congregant who's a female.

Mm -hmm. Well, we have one more break. It's going to be briefer or more brief.

I don't know which one's grammatically correct. So if you have any intention to send in a question, please send it in as soon as possible, because we are rapidly running out of time.

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, city and state, and country of residence.

Don't go away. We'll be right back. James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.

I'm very excited to announce that my long -time friend Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and I are heading down to Atlanta, Georgia again for the

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Hi, this is John Sampson, pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona. Taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnzen and the

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I'm pleased to do so and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting

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Scott Brown here. I hope you can join me and Chris Arnson at the Chief End of Man Conference in Ridgecrest, May 4 -6.

The Chief End of Man Conference is a national conference of church and family life which exists to proclaim the sufficiency of Scripture.

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We're now back with Susan Heck. And one of the things that I have most frequently heard from sisters in Christ who bear open their hearts and souls in agony is the fact that they have adult children who have either abandoned the faith or have never come to Christ.

And they have shared some very intensely sad stories, some women who spend many nights, sleepless nights, in terror that their child is going to be killed in an accident and go to hell, that kind of thing.

What kind of counsel can you give to women who seem to be so burdened about that, obviously?

That is truly, I agree with you, Chris. I've heard more of that in recent days, and I can never remember.

And I think, you know, social media, unfortunately, has given these young people strength, their strength in numbers.

And so they're listening to the voices out there in the world. And that's just becoming commonplace to be dishonoring to one's parents and to start calling our parents toxic or blaming things that we should take responsibility for in our parents.

So I've heard that as well. So, you know, it is challenging. I've encouraged them to do as much as possible to try to make restitution, to try to make appeals to their children.

We have women in our church whose kids don't even talk to them, adult children. So I've encouraged them to go through things like Trusting God by Jerry Bridges, When Life Hurts.

I think that's a great help and hope. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I've given away many copies of that book, and I've interviewed

Jerry before he went home to the Lord. I interviewed him on that book. Yeah, I think that's a great, great help.

And it's hard, but I have to say the lady that travels with me, that happened to her. Both of her adult children turned against her, and she just kept faithful, praying.

And they both now have restored their relationship with their mom. And I'm very thankful for that.

But she went years and they didn't speak to her. So there is hope and help.

You just have to be patient. I would encourage them to fast, pray, show unconditional love to those children, show them

Christ. But it is becoming commonplace. It's quite concerning. But just to wait on the

Lord, be content, trust Him, and find some group of women that will be committed to pray for you and with you on a regular basis.

Do you have anything that you'd care to say in summary form that you want most etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners before we go off the air?

Sure. My husband used to say, you don't have to always express your opinion. So I stopped and he said, you're so quiet. I said, well, you told me

I don't always have to express my opinion, so now I'll be quiet. I think the thing

I would say in closing is to any woman, just be faithful to the

Lord, love Him with all your heart. Spend massive amounts of time in the Word of God.

Love other people. Look and wait for the hope and return of our Lord Jesus Christ.

And don't waste your life. Don't waste your time. Pour it out to other women that are in need of help and hope.

So there's so many women out there that would love the opportunity to be mentored by another woman, whether you're a pastor's wife or not.

So pour your life into the lives of others. Love God and love others. On these two things hang all the law and the commandments.

So, amen. And if you want to find out more information about my guest, Susan Heck and her biblical counseling ministry, go to withthemaster .org,

withthemaster .org. Of course, do not forget about the G3 conference, the

G3 National Conference, which is coming up. We'll be here, before you know it,

September 21st through the 23rd on the theme, The Sovereignty of God, where my guest,

Susan Heck, is one of the speakers. She'll be speaking to the ladies, and we have

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That's the Iron Sherpa's Iron Radio discount code for the G3 conference. That's G3ISIR. I want to thank you so much,

Susan, for being such an extraordinary guest. I look forward to you returning soon and frequently to the program.

I want to thank everybody who listened, and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater