October 19, 2020 Show with Geoff Thomas on “Illustrating How Knowing True Theology is Essential”

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Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation, to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions, and now here's your host,

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Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet

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Earth. We're listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is

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Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Monday on this 19th day of October 2020.

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I'm so thrilled to have back as a returning guest, one of my favorite guests to interview of all time,

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Reverend Jeff Thomas, who, beginning in 1965, served for over 50 years as pastor of Alfred Place Baptist Church of Aberystwyth, Wales.

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He's going to be on with us two days in a row again. We love the fact that we started this tradition where he has been typically on the show as a guest two days in a row whenever he's on, and I'm delighted that he has decided to do that again today and tomorrow, the 19th and 20th of October.

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Today he is going to be addressing the theme, Illustrating How Knowing True Theology is

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Essential, and tomorrow, Tuesday, the 20th of October, he'll be interviewed on the theme,

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Benefiting from Knowing True Theology. It's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Reverend Jeff Thomas.

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Well, thank you very much. I come very apprehensive. Your listeners are discerning.

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They search me with questions that I've not known are going to come, and then

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I have to cry in my heart, Lord, help me now to answer these questions.

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You kindly shepherd me and guide me through the delightful hours we spend here together, and I hope people who are listening everywhere will be strengthened in faith and deepened in their understanding of the

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Word of God and more consecrated to serve and love our dear

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Savior. Amen. Well, you have never failed me yet as being a superb guest, brother, and I don't expect anything different today and tomorrow.

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For the sake, again, of our listeners who are not familiar with Alfred Place Baptist Church of Aberystwyth, Wales, where you did serve before retirement from the pastorate for over 50 years and where your grandson is now pastor, tell us about that fine church.

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Yeah, well, it was in a bit of a muddle. Well, whenever a university comes into a town and starts and establishes and sends its roots out, it has the most secular influence on that community, and the degrees and letters of a man behind his name become more important than his experience and knowledge of the

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Gospel and his love for the historic, confessional

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Christian faith, and that was the situation in Aberystwyth.

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It had been a little seaport in the middle of Wales, halfway up in the north and the south, so the first university was established there, and then it had an effect upon the pulpits that they wanted a learned approach, an educated approach, rather than a historic, biblical

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Christian approach, and the first of 50 years of the century, we don't know of a

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Gospel pulpit in any of the denominations in Wales.

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And then I went there in 1965, and there were a group of Christians in the congregation that were praying that the church would see better days, that it would be a

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Bible -based worship and a Bible -based message that it would give to the students of the town and the people of mid -Wales, and so the

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Lord helped me and encouraged me with their support, and so I was happy, my wife and my three daughters, we loved the seaside and the fresh faces of young students, and so I spent those 50 years there, and 46 men went into the ministry during those 52 years, so I had my own seminary, didn't

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I, and men like Derek Thomas, who is now well -known in the

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United States, he was one of the students that was saved in Aberystwyth. Praise God.

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If anybody wants more information on this fine, historic church, if you're ever visiting Aberystwyth, Wales, or if you already live near there, go to alfredplacechurch .org

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.uk. alfredplacechurch .org .uk. Well, you have selected two excellent themes for our two -day discussion with you, and the first is illustrating how knowing true theology is essential, and that's a very interesting theme, because as you probably know, there are multitudes in modern evangelicalism who would argue against that, they would even argue vociferously against that, they would downplay the vital importance, and they would downplay that it is essential to know true theology.

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They would basically repeat the mantra, just love Jesus, just love Jesus, and they seem to either not know or completely forget that if you're going to love

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Jesus, you have to love the true Jesus, and the only way you can know the true Jesus is to know true theology.

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But if you could, pick up where I left off there, and tell us why you selected this very vital topic.

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You know, in 1961, I sailed in a cargo boat from Liverpool to the

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United States, and I went to Westminster Seminary from 1961 to 1964, and they were blessed years for me, because Westminster picked up what old

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Princeton had held to, its position, its truth.

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Our textbook was Charles Hodges' Systematic Theology, as taught by a former

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Princeton lecturer, John Murray, and when Charles Hodges died, his son followed him, my grandson followed me, but A.

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A. Hodges followed him, and at the induction service, the place was packed at the end of the 19th century, and Dr.

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Paxton said to the congregation great words that I love.

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He said, the name of the seminary is known in all the world, its chief distinction is its biblical teaching, the ground of its faith is the

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Bible, its only question is what has God said, its only proof is

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God's word, its professors have never reached the point of thinking they know more than the

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Bible. This seminary has always taught that there are two questions to be considered.

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One, is this the word of God? Two, what does it mean?

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This ascertained, there is nothing left but to believe and adore.

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I think that is the most terrific statement of what a true biblical training college for preparing men to be preachers of the everlasting gospel should assert and cleave to, and when

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Princeton lost its way, and when it brought in new orthodox and liberal men, then

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Dr. Machen and Mr. Murray and others left, and the seminary started at Westminster.

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Now there are probably ten Presbyterian seminaries that hold to exactly what

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Paxton said, that our distinction is biblical teaching, the ground of our faith is the

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Bible, and its only question is what has God said, and that is what we love about the

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United States, and the books that are being produced by the teachers in these seminaries, and the hundreds and thousands of men that are being prepared for the gospel ministry, sitting under such teachers, learning such theology, and that is my longing for Europe in all its settler dominance.

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You know, Augustus Strong was in Rochester, New York, in another seminary there, at the

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University of Rochester, and he spoke about the teaching of theology, that the eyes of the heart must be enlightened to perceive the truth of God, to know the truth needful is to do the truth, he said.

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Theology is a science which can be successfully cultivated only in connection with its practical application.

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So, he said in my lectures and in my book of theology, I want to point out always the relationship of theology, that is

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Christian teaching to Christian experience, and to its power to awaken

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Christian emotions and lead to Christian decisions, I am not interested in abstract theology.

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Only that theology is scientific, which brings the student to the feet of Christ.

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In other words, it's the heart that makes a theologian, and that is my desire to defend those statements from those great men, and rejoice that they are being maintained and declared in numbers of seminaries in the

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United States today, and they're the ones who listen to this program, and they're the ones whose books

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I purchase and read. So, I want to ask the question, why do we need systematic theology?

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You know, there are three aspects to the Christian religion. Firstly, there's piety, godliness, man's relation with God, his devotion to him, speaking to him in prayer, worshipping him, individually in private devotions, and then corporately on the

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Lord's Day with all the people of God. And when we want to learn about private and congregational response to God, what passage do we go to to learn about our prayer life?

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Well, we use the Lord's Prayer. Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name, and so on.

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And that teaches us about our relationship with God, our piety. Secondly, there is morality.

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There are the ethics that the Creator requires of his creatures, and the

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Savior produces and sustains and nurtures in all his born -again people.

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How, then, should they live? And the answer to that ethical issue is summarized in the

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Ten Commandments, especially as it's opened up by our Lord in the Sermon on the

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Mount, Matthew 5, and by Paul in Romans 13, Ephesians 5 and 6.

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There's a big, fat volume of Wayne Grudem now called

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Christian Ethics, the companion volume to his Systematic Theology. And what does he use to teach us about how we are to live?

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Well, he uses the Ten Commandments. That's the skeleton on which he hangs the daily living of those who are twice born.

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So, Christianity is firstly piety, our relationship with God, our devotion to him, speaking in prayer.

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Secondly, it's how we live, Christian ethics. And there is the

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Ten Commandments. And then there is, thirdly, the third ingredient in Christianity is the faith, once delivered to the saints.

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The doctrines of Christianity, the dogma, the decrees, the theology,

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Theos Logos, the Word of God. And where do you find, then, a summary of the

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Oracles of God, like you do in prayer, the

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Lord's Prayer, in Christian living, the Ten Commandments? Where do you find a comprehensive summary and survey of the essence of Christian truth?

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Is there a supreme passage summarizing it, equivalent to the

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Ten Commandments, or behavior on the Lord's Prayer for devotion? It doesn't exist.

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We've got to have it. Where do we go for it? So, what have theologians done?

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Well, they've turned to the Apostles' Creed. I was preaching in All Saints Presbyterian Church in Newcastle last week at our annual conference, and there on the wall behind the pulpit there was the

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Lord's Prayer, and there were the Ten Commandments, and there was the

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Apostles' Creed. They've created a human summary to create a system of Christian teaching.

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Now, you tell me, you think about this. What Bible passage would you think contains the comprehensive essence of Christian teaching?

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And I'm not asking you a trick question. What equivalent to prayer, the

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Lord's Prayer passage, behavior, the Ten Commandments, would be a passage which would give you the essence of Christian teaching?

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And if you think about it, you would say correctly to me, well, Romans chapters 1 to 11.

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Good. That's great. Or Ephesians 1, 2, 3, and 4.

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Great. Colossians 1 and 2. And those are all great answers.

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Or then another of you would say, I'd go to one of the many big texts, the compressed truth texts that are scattered through the whole of Scripture, and I would gather them together.

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I would open them up one by one in some sort of order, and they would explain

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God's our Creator. Man has fallen and ruined by sin.

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God in His love has provided redemption, speaking through the prophets and then sending

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His Incarnate Son, Jesus Christ. He regenerates us by the

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Spirit and enables us to live a sanctified life, and then we are heading for the end times.

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And that series of the peaks of Christian teaching, you would collect those passages together in some sort of wise gospel order.

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Like Paul does in Romans 8. Those whom he predestined, them he also called.

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Those he called, them he also justified. Whom he justified, them he also glorified.

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And there we have a summary, a system, a plan, an order.

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And so in the absence of a single passage that summarily comprehends all the doctrines of God, creation, fall, incarnation, redemption, you gather these passages, these summaries together.

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And that's why they've been put into the

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Apostles' Creed. The Westminster Standards, the Shorter Catechism, the 1689

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Baptist Confession, the Heidelberg Catechism. And these summaries are such a useful outline and structure, which are amplified more fully again in the great books of systematic theology that have wonderfully appeared in the last few years.

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And so that would be my approach to defend why we need to have, why it's necessary to have, and not difficult to have, a gathering together of systematic theology.

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Now, one thing that I'm sure you would agree, on the one end of the spectrum, what you're saying is all absolutely true, and something that is not only forgotten but even militated against in our day and age.

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But at the same time, don't we have to be careful about not exalting one's understanding of right theology?

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Now, I'm not talking about the essentials of the truth, like salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, and Christ alone, or the

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Trinity, or the virgin birth, or the sinlessness and perfect obedience of Christ, or about his substitutionary death, his bodily resurrection, things like that.

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But sometimes, we who are Reformed, and it's not only us, there are many different theological representatives that do this, but we have to be careful about not becoming puffed up and proud, and belittle, and be antagonistic and dismissive of our brothers in Christ who have not yet arrived to recognize and embrace some of these precious truths that you and I share and declare with great joy.

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Yes, of course. Of course. We have to be careful of that.

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And we have to be careful not to major in the minors and introduce the minors into works of theology.

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You know, systematic theology is topical teaching that presents and applies the comprehensive testimony of the

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Bible. It's an explanation of the Bible on the major themes of the

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Word of God. So, you have to, and we plead with people, respect the weight that Scripture places on various themes.

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And theological explanations must be sensitive to the proportions and categories of these revealed truths.

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I think there's no place in a systematic theology for a discussion on women's headgear or opening up a section on what being baptized for the dead means.

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You know, that's just special pleading. You've written a book on it, or you've got a special theory on it, and you've introduced it.

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You've turned a work of systematic theology into an encyclopedia of Christianity.

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Well, you know, that's not the place for it. There are other places where you can find such discussion.

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Theology, systematic theology, is a gathering of major themes.

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We major in the majors. And it must be scriptural.

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There must be clear biblical foundation and evidence for all the sources that we cite for what we believe, what we preach, what we testify to, what we teach young people about, the central themes of the

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Bible. And now we have to go to our very first break. If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own for Jeff Thomas, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail dot com,

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C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail dot com. And please give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

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USA. Please let me remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

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Call 1 -800 -669 -4870. Welcome back.

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This is Chris Arntzen, if you just tuned us in, our guest today. And this is the first of a two -day interview we're doing, we're conducting with Reverend Jeff Thomas.

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He has been the pastor of Alfred Place Baptist Church of Aberystwyth, Wales, for over 50 years.

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And he is a frequent speaker at Banner of Truth conferences, as well as an author, having been published by Banner of Truth and Reformation, the

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Heritage, I can't remember the name, Reformation Heritage Books, that's it.

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And others. And we are delighted to have him for the next two days. Today he is addressing, illustrating how knowing true theology is essential.

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And tomorrow he's going to be discussing benefiting from knowing true theology. If you'd like to join us on the air with a question, our email address is chrisarntzen at gmail .com.

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chrisarntzen at gmail .com. Please give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside of the

36:33

USA. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

36:42

And one thing that we always have to remember about these precious theological truths that we believe in, unless we get too haughty, because it's interesting that the very truths that we as Reformed Christians embrace as being, as the key identifiers of what makes us unique as Christians, those doctrines of sovereign grace, those things are supposed to humble us, not exalt us, not make us puffed up and proud.

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Is that right? Quite so. Quite so. You know, the man who seemed to embrace these truths but in the most wonderfully evangelistic and pastoral and caring way was

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Dr. Martin Lloyd -Jones. And he would say that a church should have three distinct meetings in a week.

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One should be pastoral, expository preaching on the Christian life, that would be Sunday mornings.

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Another should be evangelistic preaching, beseeching men and women to repent and believe on the

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Lord Jesus Christ, and that would be Sunday nights. And then thirdly, he said, there should be a meeting in which

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Christian theology and dogma should be explained. And he did that on Friday nights.

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Now, I don't know anyone else anywhere in the world who suggests a threefold division like that, but he did it.

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And those Friday night meetings were immensely valuable, well attended, you know, 800 ,000 people there.

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And he first did a series then on great doctrines of the

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Bible, and that was sparked off by Billy Graham coming in the early 1950s and holding weeks of meetings in Haringey Arena in London.

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And it stirred London, and it was reported in the press, and it was reported on the

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BBC. And there was a lot of interest in Christian teaching.

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And he tells us that he found people coming on to him and asking him question after question about Christian teaching, about origins, about the fall of man, about what

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Jesus Christ did, about justification by faith, about the latter days.

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And so, he did this series, which finally came out in a big, fat, single volume called

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Great Doctrines of the Bible. And it's a fascinating book written by an evangelist who is having to face up to the revival of interest in Reformed theology, and to examine his own beliefs as he is confronted by the dynamics of this evangelical debate, for whom did

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Christ die? And people argued about it. And he made his own contribution.

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So, there is a wonderful congregation in the east end of London, not far from the

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Olympic Stadium, a black congregation of half of them are now

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Nigerians, and half of them are from the West Indies, especially from the island of Montserrat, where there is an active volcano.

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And half the congregation left Montserrat and sailed to Britain, looking for jobs, getting jobs in Britain, and they met together in a congregation.

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And the son of the previous pastor, named Easton Howes, he got a job in 1950 -ish at the

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Westminster City Hall, a civil servant in the City Hall. And he came across a number of other

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Christians working there. And one Christian would say to him, oh, we've got a

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Bible study one evening, would you like to come along? And he wasn't keen.

41:20

His experience of five people sitting in a room, each of them suggesting comments on a verse of scripture, rather unedifying, and on a

41:30

Friday night he wanted to go home to his wife and children. But this man, then, he would wait a couple of months and he'd say, um, would you like to come along?

41:40

We've got the Bible study still going on a Friday. And so one evening he agreed to go along with the man.

41:50

It's not far, the man said, we can walk there. And so they walked down, not far from Buckingham Palace, not far from Big Ben and the

41:58

Houses of Parliament, they came to Buckingham Gate. And there he saw a chapel he had noticed before,

42:06

Westminster Chapel. And the Bible study wasn't five or six people, but hundreds and hundreds of people.

42:15

And there he heard for the first time Dr. Lloyd -Jones opening up Romans. On Sunday, two days later, he said to his friend, the pastor,

42:25

Tom Tewitt, you've got to come with me next Friday. And Tom did.

42:31

And they never stopped attending. And the influence of the preaching of this systematic exposition of Christian doctrine

42:42

Friday by Friday impacted those men and their congregation. And today it meets in Hackney.

42:50

It's got a beautiful building with a wraparound gallery and a fine, large congregation.

42:56

I think it's the only Reformed black congregation in Europe. Now, most of us have to combine a prayer meeting with a

43:07

Bible study at the midweek meeting. Our congregations are not large enough for us to have two midweek meetings, one a preaching service and one a prayer meeting.

43:22

I pray that our congregation will be blessed and will grow and we'll have two meetings.

43:28

Now, I do not think while there is one meeting that an exposition of systematic theology is a good introduction to corporate congregational praying for the needs pastorally and evangelistically of the congregation.

43:50

I've been there. I've done that. I've killed prayer meetings by having theological preaching at the beginning.

43:59

The message before the prayer time should be conscious of what's to come in the meeting, full of pathos, as real and suitable as one can be as one feels one is a little sinner before a great

44:17

God whose only right to be there is through the merits of His Son, Jesus Christ.

44:24

Focusing then on the pressures that our friends in the body of Christ live with and immensely encouraged by the

44:34

Savior saying to us, pray without ceasing. In everything, give thanks to God, pray to God.

44:40

And so my choice of three meetings would be one of pastoral systematic expository preaching

44:49

Sunday mornings, one of evangelistic expository preaching Sunday nights. But if we find more sinners, unbelievers coming out in the mornings, swap those around.

45:00

You've got to be wise about these things. And then finally, experiential preaching for the midweek meeting, full of an appeal to the affections as you and the passage and the

45:14

Spirit of God can make it. So that's my approach for how we present theology, the balance of it in the normal everyday life of our gospel churches.

45:32

Amen. And we just brought this up recently, I don't mean you and I, but my friend

45:40

Pastor Kurt M. Smith, who just wrote a wonderful biography of George Whitefield.

45:49

And we're actually going to be continuing our discussion on Whitefield this

45:55

Thursday, God willing, with Pastor Kurt. But thundering the word is really self -explanatory about Whitefield's manner of preaching.

46:06

And there seems to be a disagreement not only amongst

46:11

Christians in general, but amongst Reformed Christians as well, where some seem to think that it's inconsequential or unimportant as far as the manner with which one preaches.

46:27

Some would say that you must preach boldly and forcefully and with power.

46:36

And you must at least, when it's a prosperity, raise your voice. And some would even go as far on the opposite end of the spectrum to criticize emotional passionate preaching as being an attempt to manipulate one's emotions in the audience and act more as if you are

46:57

Arminian or semi -Pelagian or Pelagian from the pulpit in seeking to win converts.

47:03

So I happen to know that you are an extremely gifted preacher, and you could never possibly bore anyone listening to you, because it is very obvious you are excited, you are enthusiastic, and you are passionate about what you are teaching and preaching and declaring.

47:24

So tell us about what you think the role of importance in regard to the manner of one's preaching is.

47:31

Of course. Oh, absolutely, I agree with you. In Ephesians 4 .13,

47:39

Paul is nurturing every single Christian in the Ephesian congregation till we all attain to the likeness of Christ.

47:48

All of us, not just those that have a particular level of theology. Or Jude speaks of the faith once delivered to the saints, not to the seminary students or the bishops and deacons, but working people.

48:01

Those who labor in council offices for local government, and on a Friday night they are anxious to go home to their wives and children.

48:09

There's a great new systematic theology, Lectures in Systematic Theology, written by Greg Nichols.

48:19

Four volumes have appeared now, and this is what he says.

48:28

Over the years, the quality control of my systematic lectures has been the secretary who typed them.

48:37

Soon after I began teaching systematics in 1979, the Lord provided as my secretary a recently converted single young woman.

48:47

Being a new convert, she was especially hungry to learn. She typed many manuscripts of those early lectures.

48:54

I didn't tell her this at the time, but she was my quality control. If after she typed a transcript of a lecture she said,

49:02

Oh, Pastor Nichols, I really got blessed by that. Then I said to myself, that material passes the test.

49:10

But if she came to me scratching her head and saying, Pastor Nichols, I didn't understand that.

49:16

It didn't make sense. It went over my head. Then I said to myself, it's not good enough.

49:22

I must edit it, clarify it. I must try to present it so that she can benefit from it.

49:29

And that is how I approach systematics. I refuse to be ashamed of it or intimidated away from it.

49:38

It's for the secretary. It's for housewives. It's for Christian young people in high school and college.

49:45

It's for fishermen and carpenters. Our master was a carpenter.

49:51

He chose fishermen as apostles. I refuse to be impressed by people who say,

49:59

Oh, it's not scholarly enough. I haven't got enough footnotes. I make no bones about it.

50:05

I want to produce a systematic theology that I can address to all church members.

50:12

It reminds me, those words of Greg, reminds me of the words of William Tyndale, who translated the

50:19

Bible into English. Why? So that the English plow boy could hear in his own language the wonderful works and words of God in Scripture.

50:34

Amen. Amen. So at the same time, you're dismissing the notion that it is required that a pastor of Reformed theology be very professorial and very, very academic.

50:54

And I'm assuming you meant by that also, it'd be wrong for him to be devoid of passion.

51:01

Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. That'll kill anything. You know, Abram Kuyper, he had drunk the intoxications of modernism at the seminary he attended.

51:12

Then he'd been a minister in his first church. The gospel people in the congregation were not impressed with his preaching.

51:18

He began visiting. And he came with one of his elders to the home of an earnest Bible Christian, a woman called

51:25

Petronella Baltus. And he said, Peter, how are you? I'm the new minister.

51:30

I thought I'd pay you a visit. And he started to talk about her, about a mountain of potatoes he'd seen in the farmyard and whether there'd been a good harvest.

51:40

And she looked at him. She said, Domine Kuyper, it's been a good harvest.

51:46

But that isn't really what you just wanted to talk about, is it? We are created for eternity.

51:53

And that's what I'd like to talk about with you for a moment. And the Lord took away her prejudice against him.

51:59

She spoke to him about the things one needs in order to be able to live and die comforted.

52:07

She spoke for a full hour without him saying a single word. It was all a foreign language to him.

52:14

And when he said goodbye to her, she thought, well, that's the last I'll see of him.

52:22

He was alone this time. He didn't know an elder with him. He said, tell me again about the things that are needful.

52:29

And she planted the seeds of true religion in his heart. In fact, you've got to pick up.

52:36

That's a very important spot in Abraham Kuyper's conversion while a pastor. But if you could return when we return from our break.

52:44

If anybody wants to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail dot com.

52:50

chrisarnson at gmail dot com. Please give us your first name, at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence. Use this time wisely.

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It's a longer than normal break because Grace Life Radio 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida, requires of us a longer break in the middle of our show because they have to localize

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While they do that, we air our globally heard commercials. So please use this time wisely and write down as much of the information provided by our advertisers as possible so that you can more frequently and successfully patronize them, further ensuring that they will remain our advertisers, which will further ensure that we will remain on the air because we absolutely depend on our advertisers to exist.

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So please write down that information provided by our advertisers and respond to our advertisers and also send in questions for Jeff Thomas, to chrisarnson at gmail dot com, chrisarnson at gmail dot com.

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Don't go away. We're going to be right back after these messages with more of Jeff Thomas.

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frequently and make purchases and always tell them that you heard about them from Chris Arnzen at Iron Sharpens Iron Radio before we return to our discussion with Jeff Thomas just have some important announcements to make first of all we have as I mentioned earlier,

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Kurt Smith returning on Thursday the 22nd of October to conduct part two of the discussion we began last week

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Thundering the Word The Awakening Ministry of George Whitefield that's his latest book which is a biography of Whitefield and I look forward to Kurt returning for part two of that discussion on Friday we have

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Tim Clary joining us for the very first time you may have heard that I originally had

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I thank you so much I can't even describe in the English language how much I thank you also folks if you are not a member of a bible believing church home wherever you live on the planet earth

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I may be able to help you find a church that is faithful to the scriptures I have helped people all over the planet find churches sometimes within a few minutes drive from their house and they didn't even know these churches existed

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01:14:58

and you were saying right before the break I'm sorry I had to interrupt you because it's always a fascinating story to hear that you were talking about the conversion the rebirth of Abraham Kuyper the great reformed scholar and theologian who was actually saved while he was already a minister

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Jeff are you there? I think we lost Jeff Thomas so we're going to another station break because of this don't go away we will be back after these messages from our sponsors

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that's linbrookbaptist .org yes, and I believe we are rejoined by Jeff Thomas you were just at the point before we went to our midway break you were just at the point when you had been discussing the conversion of Abraham Kuyper who was saved while a minister he was already a pastor and he was still as lost as lost could be and his rebirth came later on in his life when visiting a woman who was a parishioner or a member, a congregant of his church yeah and she spoke to him and he knew she had something that he didn't have that he'd lost and he went back to her and treasured her all her life and was thankful to God and so I was just simply making the point that systematic theology must be scriptural and it must be simple for the milkmaid as well as the plow boy

01:17:27

I don't mean that it must be simplistic but it should be lucid and relevant and accessible and you know the big buzz word is that it should be exegetical which simply means it should explain what verses of scripture and it should show the statements it makes are true because this is actually what the

01:17:57

Bible is saying and sometimes the words are not big you have all those big words expiation, propitiation sanctification justification they are

01:18:09

God's words he gave us those words we didn't make them up and we've got to understand them but sometimes it's very important to know two letter words for example are we saved by good works or are we saved by two good works just two letters by and to but the difference between them is the difference between heaven and hell um are we saved by what we do then there's no need for Jesus Christ to come into the world if my decent life and my kindness and thoughtfulness and love for my children and my parents and my husband my wife if that's going to save me but I know that I've hurt the people who depend on me the most and um

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I've taken advantage of them and I could never go to heaven and God says why should

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I let you into heaven and I'd say well because of my good works

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I'm saved two good works to do good works four good works if I'm a saved man then my life is going to show it

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I'm going to love my my neighbor as I love myself

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I'm not going to do it perfectly but I would do it perfectly that's going to be my ambition in life to love

01:19:54

God not just give him half a life give him my whole heart and soul and strength and serve him because he is

01:20:05

God and I'm a little I'm a shrimp in comparison to him and I want to give then to God all my life to work for him and serve him so um explaining the bible explaining little words like by works or for good works is also essential so it must be scriptural it must be simple and it must be faithfully explaining the word of God that's where true theology comes from and going back to the main theme of why it is essential to know true theology you can't really get by having a walk with Christ that is genuine or even salvation at all if you have a false

01:21:10

Christ because of your bad theology if you have a false gospel because of bad theology

01:21:16

I mean when you believe something that is seriously in error it pollutes so many other aspects of the faith doesn't it it certainly does oh yes

01:21:27

I want to open up that tomorrow as we go on but it is certainly essential to to test one's opinions of Jesus Christ with the teaching and the life of our

01:21:52

Saviour Jesus Christ and are we just prejudiced are we believing what the world believes about Jesus Christ that he was a good man that he was a failed prophet that like all prophets at the end who fail and people turn on them and kill them

01:22:15

Jesus was such a person I mean that is so totally inadequate and false that's a demonic view of Jesus Christ because we know in the end he rises from the dead and he lives in the power of an endless life and God is so pleased with him he tells him you're my beloved son and he raises him up and he is seated at the right hand of God today so to have the scriptural view so that's very important and also biblical theology is very important you know how the bible starts and tells a story doesn't it man perfect man rebelling

01:23:08

Adam's son kills his brother sin, wickedness comes into the world

01:23:18

God raises up Abram and through his seed the patriarchs come

01:23:26

Abram, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph they come out of Egypt they're delivered after 400 years of bondage under Moses, he writes the first five books of the bible he takes them into the promised land they have judges which are inadequate they have kings

01:23:49

David a great king, Solomon a great king but failures we're waiting for another king to come the prophets tell us that he's going to come unto us a child is born, a son is given the government shall be upon his shoulders his name is wonderful counsel, a mighty god, everlasting father, prince of peace we're all anticipating the coming of this saviour

01:24:15

Jesus Christ, that's the whole development of biblical theology and there are different aspects and developments of that the contrast between biblical theology and systematic theology is the difference between say a natural landscape and a market garden in nature, well it's, is it near the river, is it high up in a mountain, what's the climate like, what are the underlying soils, what are the outcrops of vegetation that's the nature that's biblical theology developing through that great story but then you have a market garden and you have plants set out in different plots and greenhouses and tunnels and they're nurtured in a man -created setting and they produce one fruit one flower, one vegetable one sapling and that's like systematic theology and you need them both you need the science laboratory where seeds are cultivated and plants are developed and that's systematic theology and then you want to walk through the mighty great sequoia the redwood forests of the

01:25:49

Rockies and see then the beauty of of natural nature and that's biblical theology and we need to see them both

01:26:02

Well we have let's see, Susan Margaret in Dauphin County, Pennsylvania who wants to say, those that are typically saying that theology is not that important and sometimes even say that it makes a living faith a dead faith often link arms with those who profess to be

01:26:27

Christian but have a different gospel such as Roman Catholics I was wondering how you feel about the modern ecumenical movement and where we should draw the line as far as cutting off Christian fellowship.

01:26:43

I think that some of our Reformed brothers and sisters go too far when they even include

01:26:48

Arminian brothers and sisters in Christ as being not saved

01:26:55

Yes, well I think what's very interesting is our

01:27:00

Lord's great concern about false prophets and how he speaks so often about this and warns his disciples about them and to be on their guard.

01:27:14

And then he speaks about the Pharisees and the religion of works that they teach and his awesome, fearful warnings to them directly he confronts them and speaks of the danger that they are in and you know the characteristic marks of ecumenical religion is that everyone has the right to his own opinion and we're wrong to judge or criticize anyone who disagrees with what scripture says and that is then the end of any standard any grasp of truth and the antithesis of truth which is error and so we've got to evaluate and judge whatever a man who stands in a pulpit and teaches us or if he writes a book and he gives it to us or he's got some wonderful new ideas that he wants to share with us we have to say to the law and to the testimony if they don't agree with what the law and the testimony says remember what

01:28:57

Paul says in the opening chapters of his letter to the Galatians the

01:29:03

Galatians had had him as their founding evangelist and pastor and he cared for them and when he left then false teachers came in and they taught the necessity of not only trusting in Jesus Christ but getting circumcised and keeping food laws and going up to Jerusalem and Gentiles had to behave like ethnic

01:29:32

Jews and Paul says if I or an angel from heaven speak to you any teaching that is different from what

01:29:43

I've said to you as an authoritative apostle of Jesus Christ then let him be accursed and then

01:29:50

I'll repeat it he said because I want you to understand that this teaching should be read and believed in all the churches if you add your good works your witnessing your piety your praying your testifying if you add that to the personal work of Christ and base your salvation on that you're a lost man because ego is mixed sin is mixed with all those things we're undone we're lost but here is

01:30:37

Jesus Christ's righteousness and Jesus Christ's sacrifice perfect and acceptable by God and that is the only way and if there are men who are teaching then things that are contrary to Jesus Christ then we have to reject them because for us he can say nothing wrong and I'm sure you also agree that although those that agree with the dogmatic gospel of Roman Catholicism at Trent do not have a true gospel and therefore cannot be counted among our brethren there are those that either through their naivete believe in the true gospel and not the gospel of Rome or they remain

01:31:33

Roman Catholics but still oppose the gospel of Rome for whatever reason even though I don't think there's any legitimate reason for them to remain in that church there are those out of fear of losing a marriage or whatever their reason is we cannot automatically assign to hell everybody that where's the name

01:31:57

Roman Catholic? Of course there are some devout people who in spite of many of the errors that go back to Trent and the dogma and the infallibility of the

01:32:16

Pope and the view of the mass that they hold and that salvation comes by the work of priests in their activities instead of the work of the

01:32:34

Holy Spirit in applying to our hearts life and conviction and sanctification himself by the truth that there are some people who have seen through that and are yet viewing

01:32:49

Jesus Christ in a very glorious and high way and trusting in him and they have not yet seen the need for separation from error and going back to the other part of that Lister's question as far as those who call themselves

01:33:16

Calvinists or Reformed Christians who dismiss all Arminians or non -Reformed folks as lost that is another error that we have to be very careful of.

01:33:27

Of course Dr. Glantill had this nice phrase inconsistent Calvinists that's how we would see true believers who as yet, we all took our time, didn't we to come and when we heard the five points of Calvinism we thought, wow

01:33:49

I've not thought of that before that can't be in the Bible and the soldiers of the

01:33:56

Reformation they were slow and some are still a little slow in coming to appreciate them, but they are our brothers in Christ yes,

01:34:11

I'm glad to meet them I sit on the plane and discover the person next to me is a

01:34:18

Christian and I'm so glad to speak to them I find out they're a bit wobbly on some of their teaching, but my brother, my sister there we are.

01:34:31

One day we will be in total harmony and love for our Redeemer Well, we have to go to our final break it's going to be a lot more brief than the last two breaks, so if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, go to, or send an email to,

01:34:50

I should say, chrisarnzen at gmail .com as always, give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside the

01:35:03

USA only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter don't go away, we'll be right back with more of Jeff Thomas right after these messages news news news news news news news news news news news news news getworldnow .com

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Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen. And we do have a listener in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania.

01:50:03

Harrison, who asks, I can't remember who said this. It was somebody worthy of note that said that we have a flippant attitude about getting the facts right about God, Jesus Christ, and the gospel, but we would rarely have such an attitude if misinformation was being spread about us or our parents, our spouses, our children, somebody very close and special to us that we cherish.

01:50:33

Shouldn't we remember this when taking such an inconsequential attitude towards misrepresenting

01:50:39

God by thinking an understanding of true theology is so very unimportant?

01:50:48

I'm not sure if I understand that. The listener,

01:50:53

I can repeat. We'd be very careful about defending the reputation of our families, our parents, our wives, our husbands.

01:51:05

And we'd hate them to be maligned or despised.

01:51:12

But we're very careless about misrepresentations of Jesus Christ.

01:51:21

He's far more important than the Muslim member of our own family.

01:51:27

We want to be as zealous in saying, what did Jesus say? Is that what that person is saying?

01:51:34

I think that you hit the nail on the head. Yeah, that's exactly how, I mean, as you were saying,

01:51:40

Jesus Christ is infinitely more important than anybody, even ourselves, even our most precious loved one.

01:51:50

And especially when the misinformation given about our loved ones or ourselves is very serious, then we typically get very upset.

01:52:02

And we may contact that person and say cease and desist from spreading that information.

01:52:08

We may try to get that person in trouble in some way, even legally. But it seems that having an inconsequential attitude about theology is not very important to a lot of people, or being wrong about theology.

01:52:30

And the thing that we always have to remember, I think, also in this regard, is we have to,

01:52:36

I know that I use the Judaizers a lot, but I think that modern evangelicals and even modern

01:52:43

Roman Catholics who are very ecumenical and don't think that theology matters very much, they forget how seriously the

01:52:55

Apostle Paul took the sin of the Judaizers' heresy. And all we know, unless you know something

01:53:03

I don't, and I know you know a lot of things I don't, but in this area, I think that all we know for a fact that the

01:53:09

Judaizers believed and did that the Apostle Paul did not do was that they insisted that Gentiles be circumcised in order to become true

01:53:21

Christians. We don't know of anything else that they disagreed with Paul on. We don't know anything else that they did that Paul did not do.

01:53:29

And that was enough for Paul to say that they are false teachers, that they are cursed, that their gospel is no gospel at all.

01:53:38

So aren't the Judaizers always valuable to remember when we consider a subject like this?

01:53:45

Yep, yep, absolutely. Yes, and the vehemence with which when the

01:53:54

Judaizers were saying, you've got to be circumcised as well, Paul says,

01:54:01

I wish they'd take a knife and do a good job of the whole matter. He can, under the

01:54:07

Holy Spirit, speak as straight as that to them in his zeal that they shouldn't lose the gospel of grace alone, faith alone,

01:54:20

Christ alone, the glory of God alone. So, yeah, you know, you speak the truth in love, of course, but you need also the zeal and passion of someone who is prepared to go to the stake or lay down your life rather than compromise what

01:54:50

God has clearly said about the way of salvation.

01:54:56

I know there are minor doctrines, aren't there? I call them twig -and -leaf doctrines.

01:55:04

And I'm not going to part with my brother or refuse to have fellowship with him over a twig -and -leaf doctrine, but over a trunk -and -branch doctrine.

01:55:21

Yeah, the one way of salvation by the one

01:55:28

God -man, Jesus Christ, through his finished work on Calvary and his resurrection from the dead, his enthronement and praying at God's right hand, and his coming again to judge the living and the dead.

01:55:48

There's no compromise in any of those truths. You deny that, then beware, oh, beware, that you are not turning from the gospel to another gospel which cannot save.

01:56:08

Amen, amen. I'm going to see if I could squeeze in a last question.

01:56:17

This is a question from, let's see here, this is from CJ in Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York.

01:56:29

And he says, about not excluding from fellowship those for whom truly

01:56:37

Christ died, do we not need to imitate Jesus, where in Mark chapter 9, 38 -41, it is said,

01:56:51

Teacher, said John, we saw someone driving out demons in your name, and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us.

01:56:58

Do not stop him, Jesus said, for no one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me.

01:57:05

For whoever is not against us is for us. Truly I tell you, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to the

01:57:14

Messiah will certainly not lose their reward. So if you can respond to that,

01:57:20

I think that we have to be careful about not giving permission to us to embrace anybody who mentions the name of Jesus as a brother.

01:57:29

Oh, you know, Chris, we put a sign outside the church, everyone is welcome.

01:57:37

You can come and you can sit in the congregation and we're glad to see you. You can be a man dressed in women's clothes.

01:57:46

You can come and sit in that congregation and hear the gospel. But if you're going to be a member of the church, then you've got to show some commitment to the teaching that you know you're going to hear week by week.

01:58:03

And if you are against that teaching, although you're a

01:58:08

Christian, you oppose it and cause trouble, then you know you are asking for some machinery of warning and discipline to be set up for the sake of the peace and the unity of that congregation.

01:58:29

So yes, you may be my brother, but you may be muddled and you may be a novice.

01:58:37

And I long for you to come and listen and study.

01:58:43

And I'll send an elder to your home once a week, and he'll listen to you and he'll teach you.

01:58:50

And we hope that you'll come to understand the historic

01:58:56

Christian faith of the Bible. Amen. And we're out of time, and I look forward,

01:59:03

Jeff Thomas, to having you return tomorrow to our program for part two of our discussion on the importance of systematic theology, this one being specifically benefiting from knowing true theology.

01:59:16

That's tomorrow, Tuesday, here on Iron Trip and Zion Radio. So we hope that you tune in, all who are listening to this program.

01:59:25

And please spread the word, especially if you know your friends and loved ones love Jeff Thomas. Have them listen tomorrow.

01:59:32

Well, thank you so much, Jeff, and I want to thank everybody who listened, especially those who took the time to write in questions. And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater