Cultish: The Cosmic Christ of the New Age (W/Steven Bancarz)

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Alright, welcome back ladies and gentlemen to cultish Entering the kingdom of the cults.

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My name is Jeremiah Roberts. I am one of the co -hosts here as Always, I'm here the Andrew the supersuit the super sleuth of the show.

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How are you man? I'm feeling blessed We've got a very awesome guest with us in the studio, even though I don't even feel like he's a guest really

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I just feel like he's Steven dude. He's our friend He's actually every now and then he pretty much hosts the show and we get to be

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This Yeah, I love it so I am yeah, I'm super excited for this episode

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This is the fourth time dude. You've been on which is crazy. Yeah, and do you like the improvements? I mean, we've got the whole we got this giant sort of like curtain going on the lights.

00:40

It feels more I do cinematic you I had to like check my heart. I was sensing like covetousness like Trying to creep in there.

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Yeah, like lord. This is awesome. So yeah, I've been making some upgrades. That's cool Yeah, well man, this is crazy because I mean it's funny too you think about the current circumstance the current circumstances in the world right now and It's just funny because like the last time that you were here.

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We were prepping for the episode and that was right when Trump declared this day of emergency and everyone started panic buying toilet papers flying off the shelves at that time

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I was working at Costco and I checked my phone and you saw this still almost like this Blockbuster line going around the building of people trying to just throw everything they could in their shopping cart

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And and do you remember Melissa was trying to get home and she wasn't sure she's gonna get a plane ride home.

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So Melissa she'll be very listening to this. So you remember that and glad you made it home

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But it's crazy because here we are now the second time that you're recording. We're recording on the eve of the 2020 election

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It's just funny like we're both times We don't know what's like beyond the veil the first time was the eve of International pandemic and this time it's the eve of civil war.

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That's right See what's gonna happen but Yeah, I mean

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I think there's I'm hoping for you know Yes, God's mercy God's mercy and grace on this country that we can, you know

02:09

Proclaim the gospel freely and boldly and not be you know Snuffled out.

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Yeah by policy. So, you know, I like to think of it like I don't want to start talking politics too much or like I like to think of in terms of who will best allow us to Fulfill the

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Great Commission and allow Christians to be Christians in the world. Amen that's my first and the second is like who best fits the qualification of Romans 13 to punish what

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God calls evil and to reward what God calls good. And those are really my only two qualifications In terms of like character and so forth that can be debated and back and forth.

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But anyway, yeah, it's interesting Yeah, we're like we don't know what to expect like you were saying from your hotel room where you're staying right now because The place you're staying had some flooding and like we're in the hotel room.

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He's like he's like man It's gonna be crazy because you we have like a perfect view of where rioting happened in Tempe.

03:06

Oh, wow Yeah, and so we're thinking like man on the third It's they're gonna be like we don't know what to expect and we didn't know what to expect last time either

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We were like, we have no idea where this is going I know we're gonna be viewing it from our suite just like with a bunch of popcorn. It's like watching the chaos unfold

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Right by Tempe Town Lake. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah Wow, but um, so just it's and also I just I've always said before it is this whole year's been interesting

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We're usually you know, this is the place where we get to talk about cultish stuff But right now it feels like the whole world has gone mad and the whole world is cultish

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But now the exact opposite we come in here and it feels relatively normal That's right. You go outside and it's crazy.

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Yeah people, you know walking in mass all by themselves when it's 116 degrees when they're not in They're not in close proximity to anyone and it's just all that being said not to give it

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It's just interesting seeing that but it just feels normal to be in here Anyway, so Steven you just people know about if people never met you before I know you've got the website reasonsforjesus .com

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You had one of the highest profile. You you really had a huge huge following and influence in the New Age you

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Had Just give him a quick two -minute synopsis of your story just in case a lot of you are familiar with you

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Right, just in case anyone's anyone slips on their cracks I don't want to leave them out of the loop just about your story get like two minutes real quick.

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Sure Yeah born and raised Christian fell away into New Ageism through the topic of ancient astronaut theory the program ancient aliens this idea that we've been visited in the

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Past by extraterrestrials who they mistook for being gods coming down from the sky and chariots of fire and so forth

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This led me down a rabbit hole Into channeled material or contact material given by these

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ETS which led to meditation Astral projection lucid dreaming and so forth.

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I began teaching this stuff online really my little brother's friends kept asking me all these questions that had to do with like the

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Chakras and Reiki and the pineal gland and I made a Facebook page for them Within a year and a half it grew to 500 ,000 followers

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Launched a website in January 2014 Started getting millions and millions of views a month

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Forty grand a month and ad revenue is pretty crazy website amassed over a hundred million views and about a year and a half

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People are really searching like they're interested in these topics. Oh, yeah, like life after death and spiritual reality and so forth

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And then yeah, I encountered Jesus his manifest presence Just a supernatural encounter with him

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I didn't see him visually, but he flooded me with his presence, right? And that is when

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I realized oh my gosh Everything I've been teaching people is set up to keep me to keep them away from the born -again experience

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I just had to keep people away from Salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Repented online told everyone new age is a scam at best.

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It's wrong at worst it's it's demonic a lot of it is demonic and And Yeah, I've been in Christian ministry the last five years living at home in my parents basement, which

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I'm getting sick of something So I love being here in Arizona though. But yeah, so today we're gonna be talking about really the core

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Christology of New Age spirituality. Mm -hmm. So there's different variants like different things people will say about Jesus you'll have like people say

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Jesus is kind of a metaphor for like the Kundalini serpent traveling up a person's spine and Awakening their crown chakra and Jesus was like the serpent in the

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Old Testament lifted up people would look upon the serpent on the cross And they'd receive healing So that's more of a really minority fringe view you just have some who would say

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Jesus is an alien I was an extraterrestrial the funniest I've heard is Jesus was a mushroom like he was a psilocybin mushroom and the whole story of his ministry is a story about like accessing higher consciousness through psilocybin and you also have

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Jesus of Theosophy which was started by Helena Blavatsky and Alice Bailey was her successor and Benjamin Cream was really her successor

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Which is this idea that you have Jesus who was incarnate as just a man

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Like you and me and then you have the Christ who is a different entity named Maitreya and Maitreya or the

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Christ overshadowed Jesus just like Maitreya overshadowed and kind of utilized other people throughout history as kind of like a tool and So Jesus and the

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Christ are two different persons two different spirit beings right and we're awaiting the second coming of Maitreya or the final coming of Maitreya or the

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Christ who's gonna finally announce himself and reveal himself to the world but Jesus is secondary to the

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Christ in Theosophy, but The primary doctrine which is absolutely dominant the most pervasive is that of Christ consciousness, right?

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And this is absolutely everywhere You know, this is Jim Carrey This is

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Russell Brand. This is Oprah Winfrey Chopra, Tolley, Wayne Dyer, Barbara Marks Hubbard Neil Donald Walsh Even Richard Rohr Richard Rohr Even Richard Rohr Hundreds the tens of millions of books have been sold teaching people this doctrine of Christ consciousness

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It's a staple Yeah If there could be said like New Ageism there is this element of subjectivity where you're given permission to kind of pick and choose what elements of You know

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Buddhism you want to draw from or Hinduism you want to draw from or Western Gnosticism you want to draw from but if there could be something called a staple staples would be pantheism right which acts as the

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Theological and philosophical bedrock of the doctrine of Christ consciousness and then Christ consciousness itself would be another staple

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And so we're gonna cover both of those because you have to cover pantheism necessarily Right To object to Christ consciousness

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But this is what we're gonna be talking about today because it is extremely pervasive. And like you said

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Richard Rohr is teaching this he has a whole book on it called the universal Christ, right this idea that Christ is a reference to the divine within all things right, so Christ refers to our innermost spiritual divine nature and Jesus is someone who tapped into that Exhibited it lived from it and he became

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Christ by virtue of the fact that he exhibited the Christ nature Within him, which is a synonym for the divine nature within all things, right?

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So we're gonna flesh this out a little bit and get more into it But like you said, it's even leaking its way into the church.

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It is Richard Rohr would be he's not a Christian I mean, he's going I don't want to be mean he's not even close to being saved

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Right, but I've also heard a worship leader very, you know Prominent worship leader to who are prominent within like kind of mainstream evangelical worship who have talked about Christ consciousness and he exhibited

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You know the consciousness that um, you know of deity that you know We're supposed to exhibit and it taps into this it really taps into Eastern mysticism.

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Its roots come from Eastern philosophy and Hinduism and we're gonna get into that as well

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But this is I would say by far the most pervasive view of Jesus taught in New Age spirituality

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I believed it wholeheartedly. I taught it and so it'll be good to Tackle this head -on and just put the nail in the coffin bro

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Come at it from every single angle so that people are without a doubt positive that this is

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Not even close to the truth Yeah, yeah, in fact, um, and just just to also echo like the very beginning we we played a dialogue

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From from it's an old Walter Martin video But in it like the reason why the reason why I played that quote is well because I again the

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New Age is a very huge broad broad spectrum of thought and philosophy when it comes down especially what is as far as When you want to actually reach someone who's in the

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New Age in the same way when you talk to a cultist You want to you want to focus in on the essentials and primarily who is

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Jesus because I'm again I think that in the same way if you're talking to someone who's Mormon or LDS, it can go into a lot of Unnecessary rabbit trails if the whole purpose is just evangelism

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We're trying to reach them and and like I said with the goal our goal in this podcast

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I mean, we're not neutral we haven't been neutral since the very beginning a cultish our goal is to give the trope of the true gospel of Jesus to everyone in the kingdom of the cults and Specifically in the

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New Age and I think there is a level of importance to stick with the essentials So when it comes down to someone who's in the

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New Age you have to get focus in what do you think about Jesus? That that's as Walter Martin said that's really where it's all at And that's something you have to consider it

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You would agree as well to when talking with someone who's in the New Age You've had a lot of interactions, especially since you left the

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New Age Yeah, I would say that pretty much every other topic that Newagers want to talk about and feel like to talk about maybe some are listening.

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I would encourage them to consider that maybe these are just deterrents and red herrings from the actual issue, which is

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That we don't want to get too close to the person of Jesus Because he knows he reflects that we know he reflects the true

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God and we don't want to be morally accountable to him And we don't want you know, the skeletons and our conscience being confronted

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You know Jesus says the world hates me because I testify of it that its works are evil and Romans 1 says it's not our problem.

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Isn't that we don't know God. It's that we don't acknowledge God, right? We suppress the truth and unrighteousness. So when it comes to talking about New Age ism with people who are in the

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New Age It is most advantageous to stay focused on the person and work of Jesus Yeah, like when

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Jesus asked Peter, who do you say I am right because there's all these other issues But we want to like we want to give

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The gospel is the power of God unto salvation Right. We want to stick to the Word of God and we as much as we can and we want to stick to that Which the

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Holy Spirit has wrought forth in the God -breathed scriptures, right? And if we're talking if we're talking in Scripture and keeping keeping things circulating

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Around what Jesus said about himself when he says my words are spirit and my words are life like it cuts

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It cuts like a knife Right. And so yeah, who do you say? I'm do you agree with Jesus in John 10 45 when he says

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I came to give my life as a ransom for many That's his purpose. I lay down my life For my sheep, right?

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I came to give my life as a ransom for many, right? So as Christians we want our if there's one thing our wheelhouse wheelhouse should be it should be the person work of Jesus Amen, and we only we don't need to deviate from that very much if at all when talking with New Agers Because I believe it's ultimately a matter of the heart and matter of the conscience not a matter of philosophy.

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Yeah, and Let's just stick to the person and work of Jesus, you know, and let's make sure we have a response prepared for For these views that have become really really dominant lately, yeah, especially yeah, especially important to you because not only is that it's there's a and we've talked about it if you look if you want to know about some of the statistics as far as the just the explosion of New Age and and thought of just Spirituality just throughout our culture and I think you're gonna see especially

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Over the next year or two, especially going especially given the culture climate, especially, you know

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Considering that we're on the eve of this election So I think you're gonna definitely see that even more predominantly over the next, you know, three to four years but you know, that's just gonna be a big fact, but you know, even in the church like we mentioned

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Richard Rohr and You know the Enneagram and in the origin of that In fact, you know depending on when we have this episode being released.

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We'll have had our episodes released We're shuffling shuffling things around right now But there the idea of Christ consciousness and and sort of this cosmic

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Christ you're seeing it being an infiltrated So it's very interesting because one of my favorite Musical bands was a group called page

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CX VI which they do a lot of really cool him renditions And they've done a really good job, but I remember just recently

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I Listened to one of her hymns that she did like a self -written him and there's just something it was like my spidey sense went off So in the lyrics of this song

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You know, it was almost I think might even like on a Pandora playlist or something It just went to one of the song that she wrote and these this is the lyrics and just tell me if there's anything that Is it kind of off here, right?

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It says father, please forgive us for inconsistent selfish wounded ways Spirit keep us close to your heart change us make us teach us loving grace

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Cosmic Christ your glory unfolds in each body breathing mercies in and again.

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This is This is just later on in the this the lyrics of the song It says mother keep us tender to your words of wisdom guiding us in truth spirit.

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Keep us close to your breath breath laying in your bosom Might may we rest cosmic

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Christ is now unfolding in each body Mending brokenness in each body.

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Yes, so that's really perfect transition into how we really need to tackle this right, which is how

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It really comes down to ontology Right Ontology is where that references the study of being right?

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So what is a thing or a person by nature? That's a reference to their ontology. Yes, right.

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So in the New Age movement, we are ontologically God we are ontologically divine and the

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There was a person named Jesus who was called, you know, the Christ or a

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Christ, but then there's like The field of universal consciousness that undergirds the universe

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Which can be called the cosmic Christ or God consciousness or Brahman? which acts as the ground being at the ground of being out of which all fundamental particles and forces in the universe emanate and It permeates all of creation and acts as the substance of all of creation

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And this is what the reference thing when they say the cosmic Christ is this divine? Force that's fundamental to the universe fundamental to nature that exists intrinsically

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Within all things and this is where we need to make a distinction in talking about Christ consciousness what they're actually

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What they really mean what they're referencing So we would understand they have this weird way of understanding the self like the personal self

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They would say there's the lowercase s self and the uppercase s Self so there's the ego the ego or the egoic self which in New Age spirituality the egoic self to the true self is what a

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Halloween mask would be to a human face, right? It's just a temporary form and just almost like a

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Costume the true self is really wearing. So if I were to ask either of you like Andrew, who are you?

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You're gonna give me a list of ideas Words thought forms you're gonna tell me about your history your personality.

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Maybe your occupation all of these Descriptions you're giving me are wrapped up in form and idea.

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Mm -hmm. These are all just plays within consciousness These are just forms thought forms within consciousness, which is

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Primordial Right and primary to that which emerges in consciousness, right?

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so we have the ego which is this personal sense of I and it's wrapped up in form and history and labels and Deepak Chopra Describes it as the ego is not who you really are.

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The ego is your self image. It is your social mask It is the role you are playing

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Krishnamurti says that the self the me the ego Is the entity that identifies itself as being separate?

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from one another so it's the personal sense of I the personal sense of self wrapped up in history and You know ideas we have about ourselves and it's distinct

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We have this idea that it's distinct from other people and that's the egoic self Let me ask you a question then because what it sounds like to me in a sense is like Everybody has to deal with something in some type of philosophical

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Foundation for sin, so sin would be separation from God But in this sense, it sounds like the ego is the separation from divine consciousness.

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So what's the point of ego? That's right. The point of ego. That's a good question people would have different answers about that, but The most common

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I would understand when I was in the new age It was the purpose of the ego was to a help us function in the world

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Like it's a tool we can use and pick up to kind of function. So we're not just so spaced out We're of no earthly good

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But it's also a way in which this field of consciousness can experience itself and learn about itself from different point and collect data about Infinity from different points of view.

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So it's for the purpose of diversity of experience. But like you said

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It's ultimately Just kind of superfluous

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Right to what's really going on in our true nature in our true self and in Christianity we're separated relationally from God through sin and Ontologically from God and we're gonna get into that but in the new age movement we're ontologically identical to God, which is just a title given to this field of consciousness, which we would call

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Brahman and We're only separated from God Relationally through self -ignorance, right?

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Our problem isn't that we're wicked and in need of forgiveness. Our problem is that we're Ignorant and we lack wisdom and insight into our true divine nature right, and so the goal of New Age spirituality is

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Enlightenment to become aware of the true nature of reality the true nature of the self so that we can move from ego consciousness into relationship with the true self the capital

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S self Which would be pure consciousness or pure awareness, right? So a catchphrase in a new age spirituality that Eckhart Tolle will often use as you were not your mind

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Right, you are not your mind you can observe the content of your mind, right? Right. So if I can observe it, it's not me

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So I'm not that which emerges in my emotions or my mind. I'm the awareness behind it and He would say that awareness behind it is ultimately not personal to me.

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It's kind of like it's our awareness It's a field that percolates up through our nervous system and into our brain

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But it's ultimately something that we kind of share in common this Spaciousness and this awareness and this consciousness which comes from the field of consciousness.

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Mm -hmm, right lying at the foundations of nature consciousness is Fundamental to the universe in the way that space time matter and energy is and the idea here

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Is that the true self is consciousness itself? It's pure consciousness.

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So what we could describe this as I'll let you ask a question, but here's a perfect way to encapsulate this this is by um someone

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I used to Listen to and study when I was a new age spirituality. His name is Amit Goswami He was a professor of theoretical physics at the

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University of Oregon for 30 years. And here's what he says, right? So the new paradigm posits a monism monism comes from the word monad

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Which means it refers to this idea in philosophy of like this irreducible Single element or particle that everything can ultimately be reduced down to one thing

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Okay, right so the monad of reality would be more smart Yeah, that which is irreducible.

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Okay, right and that which is irreducible. The monad is consciousness, right? The new paradigm posits a monism based on the primacy of consciousness that consciousness

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Variously called spirit God and Brahman and not matter is the ground of all being it is a monism of a consciousness

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That is unitive and transcendent But one that becomes many in sentient beings such as us we are that consciousness, right?

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So there's this universal field of consciousness laying at the foundation of nature which Hindus would call Brahman And it permeates everything in creation gives rise to everything in creation

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Everything create in creation emanates out of it including us including our sense of self And so everything can ultimately reduced down to that field of consciousness and that's our identity

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Brahman All right, so the personal self is Brahman Atman's what Hindus would call it the Atman the inner self

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The personal self is ultimately. Yeah Brahman this impersonal force impersonal field of consciousness and that is the true self

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That's the capital S and that self in me is ultimately the self in you. There's only one being here

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So so it's interesting what I'm thinking about right now is that it's not necessarily Christ consciousness really it's like Christ is just the central figure that they need to deal with so they name it that When you're talking in terms of the true self it reminds me of when we did the episodes on the

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Enneagram Where there's nine points and it's to discover your true self That's the exact words that they use if I think it was

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GI Gritcheff who said if you use it correctly I could meet I could you can see the nine faces of God essentially through it and That's what it is though.

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It's this esoteric knowledge. That's outside of material reality That can connect you with something at a deeper a deeper level, right?

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But my question is is for consciousness Where does where is perception involved in that in the sense of a rock a rock has being in a sense?

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And especially with Brahman it all emanates from this one consciousness, but what's the perception of a rock?

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And what's its influence to Brahman in a sense? Does that does that make sense? Yeah, absolutely now they would say that a rock is just as much

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God as I am or you are So everything is irreducibly

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God and intrinsically God and so this table in front of us is God just as much as The Sun is the moon is just as much as animals are human beings are any

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Extraterrestrial race that may or may not exist in their worldview would also be just as equally God So we're talking about and since we're talking about an impersonal reality, right?

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We're not talking about a personal creator that has manifested himself In and as all things we're talking about an impersonal field of consciousness now how you even describe consciousness without bringing any sense of individuated mental states into that like we're just talking about like consciousness apart from any mind or any brain and any sense of like Individuality it just becomes so abstract

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But they'll say that this field of consciousness makes up the the being of the rock though The rock doesn't have a nervous system

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Complex enough to actually facilitate the consciousness that is percolating up and making it up So our nervous systems really developed

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So this field of consciousness is able to kind of like percolate up through our nervous system and it's being expressed through our brains

25:56

Right, but the ultimate self that is behind our nervous system and our experience of perception is the same self

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That makes up the being and the ontological grounding of that rock, right?

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And so they'll use phrases like we are all God experiencing itself or there or there's only one of us here

26:16

Wow, so that God that impersonal beings not omniscient by any means because it's constantly learning new things

26:23

Yeah, it's knowledge would be you'd be growing in knowledge. And so far as it's learning new data points through experience expressed in different individuated points of consciousness

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So it wouldn't be omniscient. It would be growing in knowledge Yeah, that's a good point yeah, and so like one of the things that we're doing in here is that we're kind of this is we're kind of laying down and Defining terms right kind of laying a foundation.

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So you kind of know Though there's a language barrier in many times So in the same way when a cultist use

26:55

Christ or says Jesus they mean something fundamentally different Than what we mean as Christians we use the same thing we use the same terms or languages language barrier

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So in the same way we wanted to be able to understand that So when the new when a new age is talking about the ego or the true self

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We like I said, we want to understand We want to make sure that you understand what they actually mean by that and that'll hopefully be a better means to communicate with them but what

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I also want to do too is to help help you also understand just the mindset of What the

27:29

New Ager is thinking through what they're for what their vantage point is as they're saying these particular things

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So Steven as you know, usually someone who's in the New Age, they're very Experiential they really their authority is experience.

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And so what kind of caught my mind when you're kind of laying out this This this guide as we're kind of going through it as far as this discussion goes is that you know

27:53

When you're talking about from experiential standpoint about the ego being an illusion But the idea is to let go of the ego and to tap until tap into this field of consciousness

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Which ultimately is an impersonal force, but from an experiential standpoint it would seem strange because it seems like it would be a struggle for the

28:12

New Age because they're the You know a big a lot of people get into the New Age because they want they're looking for like true identity

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They're wanting to find a real authentic sense of self But it seems to me you it would be conflicted because while you're trying to find a unique identity

28:30

You're trying to find it in the unique in your own personhood, but that personhood is an illusion. How do you?

28:37

Hey, it seems there'd be conflict between trying to find your personhood and ultimately into something that's impersonal.

28:43

That's right no, there is conflict so we would say there's kind of like the Fast food version of New Age spirituality, which is

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I'm trying to self actualize or Self -discover and what they really what they mean at sort of like a neophyte stage of New Age ism is

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I'm trying to find out How I truly feel about things how I truly see the world who

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I am in my personality Apart from the influence of my parents or societal expectation

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I want to know who Andrew is and Steven is and Jeremiah is in and of themselves apart from programming and apart from fear and apart from Boundaries being put on me and enforced on me by society

29:30

So what they're talking about there is I want to discover who I truly am as a person and discover my authentic self but then

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Actual New Age ism rips the rug out from under them right because that whole process is vanity

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It's just an exercise in futility. Mm -hmm, because in order to really achieve enlightenment and really access

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Higher consciousness and fulfill your actual purpose in life. You have to let go of all personal sense of identity

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You have to realize that the personal sense of identity you have and you're looking for that's just a mask

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The capital S self is wearing for a temporary period of time and you have to move past this striving for individual meaning an individual purpose an individual fulfillment and for love or creativity or Offering value to people or feeling we have to move past all of that and realize

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All those things are just plays in consciousness right and there are things that emerge in your mind emerge in your energy energy field and Beneath all of that is this dimension of pure awareness?

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that which can observe that without putting judgment and label on it and they'll practice mindfulness as A way to kind of position themselves as that which is beyond mind

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Beyond personal so you can you can observe in yourself I sense this craving this need of mine is bubbling up to the surface

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Right a neophyte new ager would say oh, that's interesting I want to go find fulfillment in that and follow my bliss right right a more

31:00

Refined new ager would say well, I see that emerging. That's not me I'm the awareness that sees that which is emerging and that awareness is plugged into the universal consciousness at the foundation of the universe and That's the universal self.

31:14

That's me getting closer to the universal self and to access that state of consciousness pure awareness would be to access what they would call higher consciousness or Moksha as Hindus would call it.

31:29

Yeah, just realize all is God and God is all right It would be called God consciousness or unity consciousness, right?

31:37

So that is the goal of new ageism of Eastern mysticism But I had a personal sort of like casual over there's thinking

31:45

I just want to be the best version of myself But then the new age movement really comes in it's like that that's an exercise in futility that the real self the real you is

31:55

Impersonal formless consciousness and Everything else is just a mask that you're wearing temp.

32:03

The universe right is wearing temporarily, but it would be cool to hear I want to hear you guys comments on that and then it'd be really cool to Before you move on to addressing this these worldview claims

32:14

From the Bible before we actually introduce Christ consciousness It would be cool to hear Walter Martin He encapsulates this perfectly in his book on on the new age cult there

32:22

But I'd like to hear you guys feedback on that. I was so first I was thinking like the neophyte New ager essentially

32:28

It's almost like the first step because first you have to be aware of that your shortcomings In order to not exercise and futility so you can know what to conquer and it sounds like the new age just gives a different different definitional distinctions to trying to achieve enlightenment or nirvana like the denial of the self and all of Those struggles but what was making me think about in a weirder level was the fact that it sounds like almost

32:52

Like artificial intelligence like this collective unconscious or consciousness in itself is a form of artificial intelligence

32:58

That's always learning learning something new through experience But trying to plug into that is trying to get into that collective soup that collective mind

33:06

It's almost like thinking that I can see people who hold this worldview almost getting to the point to where they think that they're living in a simulation

33:15

Right and that they're just plugged into this artificial intelligence Is that something that people hold to you when they get really deep into the rabbit hole?

33:23

I'm going off in a weird little area, but I think it's really interesting I don't think about they do they'll say that there's a whole book on this topic called the holographic universe by someone in Michael Talbot I used to read it and it does plug into this idea that consciousness is a field that lies at the fundamental you know layers of nature the most fundamental layer of nature and it will draw from certain anomalies and Quantum mechanics and use quantum notation.

33:51

Okay, such as the observer effect, which I'll talk about real quickly so the observer effect is this idea in quantum mechanics, so you know molecules are made out of atoms atoms are made out of Electrons protons and neutrons and they're made up of quarks and so forth

34:08

But what you can do is you can isolate certain particles from an atom such as an electron and experiment with it so they'll isolate an

34:18

Electron for example, it's called the double slit experiment and basically they shoot it through like this metal grating

34:23

They have like a launcher of electrons that they put the electron into and they shoot it through this grating And then there's like so there's the instrument that shoots the electron.

34:30

There's like a grating and there's a wall on the other side Yeah, they want to see they want to measure the behavior of the electron as it passes through the grating

34:37

I'm not really sure what purpose the grating is to serve. But anyway So when it passes through there

34:42

They notice that on the on the wall here There's an interference pattern created as it's called

34:48

So imagine like when you want when you see waves going up the side of like a dock There's this like wave pattern on on the wood or on the dock

34:56

They were seeing the electron was making that so it goes through it gets launched out as a solid stable object

35:03

But it can be measured as like smeared out in space interesting or non local Right, you can only measure in terms of where it's likely probable to be

35:11

It's just it's just smeared out in space, right? But when they try it they try to put a microscopic camera in there to observe the behavior of the electron all of a sudden

35:22

It behaved as a solid stable object again, and they couldn't actually witness it interesting. Yeah turn into the wave

35:29

It's the smaller. They were able able to view it Don't be able to view it But when when you had the presence of consciousness in the experiment the wave function of the electron collapsed

35:40

So electrons possess what's called wave particle duality it can behave as both a wave and a solid stable object you can measure in a definite space and In space and time, but it can also be measured smeared out across multiple locations

35:54

Right, and when you try and observe that behavior of a particle, you can only measure it as a wave

35:59

You can never observe it as being the wave right this idea that consciousness collapses the wave function

36:06

Of the electron and they'll use this to say hey, maybe consciousness isn't something that's just produced by the brain

36:14

Right, maybe it's not something local to the brain. Maybe it's actually Non -local, maybe it's actually like that which maybe there's something more fundamental to it, right?

36:24

Maybe like electrons have some relationship to consciousness because our brain

36:30

Isn't the loci and producer of consciousness? Maybe our brain is actually kind of like receiving consciousness like an antenna.

36:36

That's the observer effect. That's the observer effect okay, gotcha, right, so they'll try and tie it into like Scientific notation like that and use that and others other such arguments to come up with the idea that maybe what we're calling the super string field or The M field or M theory super string theory that that field itself has the property of consciousness to it

36:58

Right. So there's this idea that there's like this sea of quantum energy Out of which all fundamental particles and forces there's vibrating strings within there and depending on how those strings vibrate

37:09

They give rise to different particles Right and what they want to do is ascribe the property of consciousness to the super string field, right?

37:16

And so this goes to answer your question. They will teach that in reality is an illusion Physical reality is an illusion that everything we look around us.

37:26

It's ninety nine point nine nine nine empty space and Like 1 % quantum spin and energy at a quantum level right there you get down to the subatomic level

37:37

There is no matter that whole world disappears this sort of like Newtonian understanding of the honestly man.

37:46

Yeah, you have quantum energy and spin and Empty space right?

37:51

And so they want to say yeah, this is all Emerging out of consciousness. This is a temporary Matrix we're experiencing it has to it has to come from consciousness according to their worldview.

38:01

It can't come from nothing, right? It can't come from nothing, right? So as a as a Christian we would say yeah at the quantum level

38:08

There's some really weird things that happen, but that's just how God so happened to structure the natural universe

38:14

We're not describing anything beyond nature, right? We're talking about forces and fields within nature

38:20

Mm -hmm So for every person such as an Amit Goswami or a John Hagelin or a Deepak Chopra that would say

38:27

Consciousness that the super string field bears the property of consciousness You could fill up a room of a thousand scientists with detractors of tractors, right?

38:35

so this is this is a minority view, but they want to ground it in something and But when you start grounding it that way, it does make reality look like wow.

38:43

This is a matrix This is all just as Hindus will call like Maya. This is all delusion

38:49

Yeah, right and and our goal is to act and to be cut to realize that to realize that everything ultimately is that consciousness

38:56

That field of consciousness. So this is there. This is the worldview in which

39:02

Christ consciousness is grounded this monistic pantheism But a pantheism that is rooted in the primacy of consciousness, right, right

39:12

Yeah, so in fact you actually you have a book it's just what happens you you might give a book about that I do. Yeah.

39:17

Yeah. Hold on. I may just give it a shameless plug Coming of the new age you can get it at your

39:24

Amazon whatever your retailer is a fantastic book In fact, you have a chapter and there's probably my favorite one where you talk a lot about the stuff the science

39:31

So falsely called right and it's interesting too because what happens I mean is and there you're giving example how they take these very new

39:40

Fields of science that where there's a lot of things that are vague and undiscovered and there's uncertain

39:45

We're still in our infancy of discovering them. And what they do is they kind of take the unknown and they come that's where they fill in this new age thought they kind of fill in something of consciousness so you see that with the evolvement evolvement of science and I can one of the ideas to when you think about the world a worldview you see that to the

40:05

Evolvement of AI and someone who has a worldview of universal consciousness They're going to think through About because ultimately

40:11

AI is old is in a sense like it's made in the is and there was same way that we're made in The imago de in the image of God in the imago de and in a sense

40:19

AI is is made in the image of us so the question is what are we truly and depending on what your view of Our yourself is will depict on what your view of AI is and even you'll see it with the evolvement of transhumanism and Technologies, I mean there's even a lot of talk now about being able to upload your consciousness to a computer and to obtain immortality

40:42

So that was kind of explored. There's there's I think there's a Johnny Depp movie They came out a couple years ago called transcendence which kind of explored that idea

40:50

So you see that there but also in the area of health and wellness So you'll see that a whole lot even this idea of universal consciousness

40:56

And so you have someone like, you know The product you were talking about alpha brain, which I took before the podcast and I've usually have taken a lots of great

41:04

Nutritional product and it deal it deals with the idea of nootropics so there's times where even something where the brain neurology and there's still a lot that people are discovering about the ins and outs of Neurology, there's times where someone who's in the new age will try and take that science to talk about how we're connected

41:22

And we're part of this universal consciousness. You'll see examples of that but even people like I don't believe he's in charge of Of the company that makes alpha brain on it is

41:33

Aubrey Marcus I don't think he's in charge of any more, but if you follow his stuff, he is Incredibly new age and he'll use a lot of these terms talking about the ego

41:41

In fact, one of the really funny guys JP Sears who is if you follow his videos super funny guy

41:47

But again, he kind of attested the same type of this sort of new age spirituality it was interesting last night because like I said recording this in the eve of the election and He's been posting all these videos about the dangers of the tyranny of big tech, you know shutting down somebody who has a different opinion about COVID or you know or about something in regards to mass or just something like that and he was kind of talking about all these sort of Injustices that are happening politically.

42:16

He's become very outspoken about it What was interesting is that we watched excuse me a video last night

42:22

And he was talking about who should you vote for and all of a sudden just became very

42:28

Subjective and it was like very postmodern almost like just vote For what like what feels right to you?

42:33

Like just do what's right for you not as if there's no objective standard But it was just interesting because he wasn't he was being consistent in many ways with with his worldview, right?

42:43

in many ways because you you have to be if How can something?

42:50

impersonal act as the ontological and we define that word the rootedness and being the the ultimate anchor point of objective mind independent opinion independent moral values and duties

43:05

How can a field act as the pipeline for that? how can the gravitational field act as the object in objective referent and anchor for moral values duties and obligations

43:19

Of course not you're gonna require it requires personhood a giver a prescriber which implies

43:30

Intentionality yeah on behalf of the one Through whom those laws are given and it also would imply

43:39

That this law giver is Them if we're talking about the absolute objective right right standard for moral value and paradigm for more values

43:49

They would also have to be omnibenevolent all loving all good

43:54

Right, and how can what does it mean to call a field? All good or all loving you wouldn't say that about electromagnetic field, right?

44:03

The Higgs field gravitational field if there is an impersonal field of consciousness It's no more personal and no more loving and then as Jeremiah said you are reduced down to this

44:14

Postmodern subjectivity where you want to affirm things like social justice and it's wrong to oppress

44:21

Homosexuals through the Christian worldview and it's wrong to tell people what they can and can't do with their bodies But at the same time you have no you you can't justify that and anchor it into any

44:32

Ontological pipeline within your own worldview Yeah, everything's just impersonal consciousness in the end any personal opinion of right wrong love hate any of that Essentially, I think if they're being truly consistent with their worldview is all just ego.

44:46

It needs to be done away with anyways Absolutely. These are all just plays in consciousness. Yeah, even the judgment that that is wrong.

44:53

It's just another it's just more mental chatter Yeah, it's just another thing that emerges in consciousness

44:58

It's not who you are and we need to reach a point where we're not even judging Right actions or dead bodies as Eckhart Tolle says truth isn't you truth is being in a sense

45:08

Yep, that's what they would kind of true truth is being and being is not person impersonal

45:14

Yeah, right And so the highest truth we need to get beyond the realm of good and bad

45:20

Right and wrong and access this deeper dimension of reality, which is pure impersonal awareness and consciousness and just spend our lives

45:30

Doing ontological navel gazing it leads no answer to the problems that we face in humanity. No answer whatsoever

45:36

It is utterly bankrupt right to our condition. Absolutely Yeah, and so what we kind of have here is really like a clash really between two worldviews

45:44

It's always a clash and again, it's not about if you're going to Yeah, it's a matter it's a matter of how do you view the world?

45:52

How do you make sense of the nature of reality? So it's not it's not a question of Whether or not you believe in truth or not

45:59

It's a matter of believe in which aspect of truth that you ultimately believe and there's no neutrality here So and ultimately you're gonna see people

46:07

Especially when you talk about the inconsistencies, you know You know many ways Bonson talked about you can you give the unbeliever enough enough rope and eventually you'll hang himself in a sense

46:17

And so what I want to do too is that you know, we want to get more into defining terms

46:23

So even it's funny so in our first episode we kind of made some contrast between some of the talks at Walter Martin gave on the new age and we kind of Contrasted it to with your books and again because in many ways

46:32

I like your book give another shameless plug second coming of the new age It's a great book zoom in but the main way

46:39

It's like a mod I think it's a modern abbreviated version of Walter Martin's Kingdom of the occult And so we have what

46:44

I have here is actually a book. I found it's got this. I love this cool 80s print I just love it so much.

46:50

It just is so cool looking at all the text and stuff But um, he said like two really cool things that in regards to the difference between the the worldviews in that are at clash when it comes to Christianity versus the new age, which is ultimately derives from in many ways from Hinduism but what

47:08

I like to is that CS Lewis is quoted sort of paraphrase the very beginning and Walter Martin says

47:14

CS Lewis saw the battle lines clearly drawn He noted that in the final conflict between religions

47:19

Hinduism and Christianity would have would offer The most viable options because because Hinduism Absorbs absorbs all the religious systems while Christianity excludes all others maintaining the supremacy of the claims of Jesus Christ so you have the

47:35

Inclusion versus the exclusion. So ultimately those two would be the final showdown again. That's That was just it's just an interesting perspective

47:42

CS Lewis. I don't know if that's the final if that's the final showdown Per se but I do like that comparison.

47:49

It was definitely very thought -provoking when I read it But this is a point we were doing a research last night that you highlight

47:54

So I'll just go ahead and read this and we'll go ahead and go off of this This is on page 19 of the New Age cult by dr.

47:59

Walter Martin He says this members of the New Age movement share a common belief that all is one that is everything

48:08

That exists together composes one essential reality or substance This ultimate reality is identified as God usually seen as an impersonal consciousness and power the

48:20

New Age derives its Belief in the inheritant divinity of man from this belief in the divinity of all things

48:28

Thus the separation of the human race from God which is obvious to the Christian Church is treated differently by the

48:35

New Age movement Whereas historic Christianity believes that man was separated from God by his transgression of God's law

48:42

The New Age movement believes that man is separated from God only in his own consciousness

48:48

He is the victim of a false sense of light of separate identity that blinds him from his essential unity with God Thus the

48:57

New Age movement advocates various methods of altering the consciousness i .e. yoga meditation chanting ecstatic dancing drugs

49:07

DMT etc as the means of salvation these enable man to consciously experience his supposed union with God as experienced as quote enlightenment

49:18

Absolutely, and that encapsulates everything perfectly and that was written in the 80s And that's still the core doctrine and emphasis in New Age ism

49:28

Today, and we're seeing it become very very prevalent and that's why it's important to do a podcast like this

49:33

I think there's really three claims that we need to address Real quickly and just throw some scripture at in order to Assess this worldview.

49:42

How would we handle something like this biblically? so the first thing that comes to mind that we would have to ask ourselves as Christians is

49:49

Is God impersonal or is God personal is God distinct from creation or is

49:54

God identical to creation? and then is man God by nature and So when it comes to the first question is

50:02

God impersonal or personal? There are so many scriptures advocating the personhood of God.

50:08

It's just it's literally endless Beginning it's right there the beginning right God spoke.

50:15

There's a reason why it's right there at the beginning Yeah, absolutely. He said let there be light. So God actually speaks words

50:21

He has a will Jesus says forever does the will of my father in heaven is my brother sister mother

50:26

Jesus prays in Matthew 6 your kingdom come your will be done. God can act on his will so he's a volitional being

50:36

Whatever the Lord pleases he does in heaven and on earth and see in the sea in the seas and all deeps

50:42

Psalm 135 6 it also says our God is in the heavens. He does all that. He pleases Psalm 115 3 you like that one

50:49

Yeah, yeah must be the Shilin song. Yeah. Yeah You guys would take that to mean

50:54

I know how you guys would take it God has plans for I know the plans

51:01

I have for you declares the Lord plans for welfare and not for evil to give you A future and a hope and impersonal field can't have plans.

51:07

That doesn't make sense, right? You know, how great are your works

51:13

Oh Lord your thoughts are very deep right for my thoughts are not your thoughts

51:18

Neither are my ways your word your ways declares the Lord Isaiah 55 8 he has plans and thoughts How about feelings

51:24

God is a righteous judge and a God who feels indignation every day? Psalm 7 verse 11.

51:31

How about God so loved the world that he gave his only son John 3 16 There's other times where God is said to have to feel pleased to feel grieved

51:40

To rejoice the Lord rejoices and so forth and my favorite verse and I use this in the discussion

51:47

I had with Marcus Rogers and on on Mona Modalism, I listen to that. Yeah.

51:52

Yeah, so basically Without getting too much into modalism But this is about the proof to in my opinion after studying it the best proof text for modalism because they'll affirm that Jesus is full deity

52:03

But they'll say Jesus is full deity it by virtue of the fact that the father is The son right and the father's full deity.

52:10

So, of course, he's truly God and truly man all right, but what you have to get what we have to establish is that they're two distinct persons and In John chapter 8

52:20

Jesus says this yet Even if I do judge my judgment is true for it is not I alone who judged but I am the father who sent me

52:27

He's talking to the Pharisees in your law. It is written that the testimony of two people is true

52:33

I am the one who bears witness about myself and the father who sent me bears witness about me

52:38

That's John 8 16 to 18 So in Deuteronomy 17 6 and numbers 35 30 It tells us the testimony of two witnesses must be in place to establish a judgment or a charge about another person

52:50

So Jesus judged himself as being the unique son of God God in the flesh and the

52:56

Pharisees were saying You can't make yourself equal with God. You can't say these things about yourself that you're the

53:02

Messiah that you're the Christ You can't say these things because you're bearing witness about yourself

53:08

You aren't fulfilling fulfilling the requirements of Old Testament law and Jesus appeals to another person in Order to justify love that so much his self -claims.

53:18

I know it solves so many problems at once doesn't it? Yeah, it's one of my favorite like proof texts for discussions with like pseudo

53:25

Christian cults and heresies and so forth because Jesus must be a distinct person from the father in order for the father to qualify as being a second person to bear witness to his witness and Testimony, so God is most definitely a person and not an impersonal field that kind of percolated up through Jesus and nervous system in the same

53:43

Way it did through a rock or the Sun. Mm -hmm. It could bear witness. You have to have them two things

53:48

You have to be a person with a mind and you have to be able to assent to a certain set of facts or propositions

53:54

About a person or a situation. Mm -hmm, right? So the father has a mind he's able to assent with his mind to Validate and come into agreement with a certain charge or testimony, right?

54:07

Right, and so the Bible is most definitely clear that God is is a person and not a field So what about terms of an ontology and being like when

54:15

I think of his numbers 23 19 God is not a man that he should lie nor a son of man that he should change his mind Like that's one verse that I can think of in terms of God's not

54:23

He's not we're not God in being it's different even like in Isaiah, right 45, which is full of it

54:29

It says God is saying I made the earth and created man on it, right? Right there.

54:35

I know There's the Bible's just full of them. There's a distinction. Yeah, right and so I would tie into You know, are we

54:41

God by nature? So we covered the personhood of God, but are we God by nature? My favorite two proof texts for this personally are

54:48

Psalm 9 verse 20 and and back pocket these Back pocket John 8 for 16 to 18 and back pocket

54:55

Psalm 9 verse 20 and Isaiah 31 3 because I use these in discussions all the time with new agers because they're just they they so Readily deal with these things like it's the nail in the coffin

55:09

For these I'm itchy to hear him, bro. Yeah. Yeah, so Psalm 9 20 put fear and put them in fear

55:14

Oh Lord, let the nation's know they are but men. Ooh So here's a big one.

55:20

Isaiah 31 3 the Egyptians are man and not God and their horses are flesh and not spirit

55:28

What did I am a goswami say that This field of consciousness that acts as the ground of being out of which everything manifests is called spirit

55:35

Right, but the Bible says specifically not only are the Egyptians not God Some might say oh, well, they weren't acting as God their

55:43

God ontologically, but they're relationally separated through self -ignorance but the neck the second half of the verse

55:49

Completely negates that by saying even their horses are flesh and not spirit their horses to aren't divine.

55:55

They aren't made of spirit It's very very clear in that text that there's an ontological separation between Yahweh and the creation between man and horses another one would be

56:10

Ezekiel 28 verses 1 to 2 in verse 9. I want to quote this here this is the Prince of Tyre and some say that God is speaking to like the the spiritual power behind the

56:20

Prince of Tyre that this is like It's addressing two problems at the same time sort of speaking.

56:25

He's talking to Lucifer before the fall, but yeah, they're here nor there. Yeah It's the equal 20 the word of the

56:33

Lord came to me says Ezekiel Son of man say to the Prince of Tyre thus says the

56:38

Lord God Because your heart is proud and you have said I am a god I sit in the seat of the gods in the heart of the seas yet You are but a man and no

56:48

God though You make yourself your heart like the heart of a god Will you still say and then he says he's gonna send foreigners upon him to destroy him and to kill him

56:58

Will you still say I am a god in the presence of those who kill you? Though you are but a man and no

57:04

God and the hands of those who slay you hmm. So when we're talking about man's ontology

57:10

You are a man and no God like there's like six times. He says that in that passage

57:15

Yeah, and then I would want to supplement this as well. So we talked about God's personal

57:21

God is ontologically distinct from man We're not God by nature Egyptians are man and not God horses flesh not spirit

57:27

What about God's distinction from his creation? Right? I think Genesis 1 is very very clear on that Starting in verse 3

57:36

God's let there be light and there was light God saw the light was good he separated the light from the darkness and There be an expanse in the midst of the waters and let it separate waters from waters and God made the expansion separated the waters

57:47

That were under the expanse from the waters that were above the expanse and it was so and God called the expanse heaven and there was

57:53

Evening and morning the second day and God said let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place And let the land dry land appear and it was so God called the dry land earth and the waters were gathered together called the seeds and God saw it was good now

58:07

He didn't see that he was good He saw it was good after he spoke it into creation, ex nihilo, out of nothing.

58:14

And God said, let the earth sprout vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind, on the earth.

58:25

And it was so. So the earth sprouts vegetation, not some impersonal field of consciousness. We have a personal

58:31

God speaking these things into being out of nothing, and then he steps back and he observes that which he created and spoke ex nihilo, ex nihilo and says, it is good.

58:42

Can I, can I ask you a question in terms of if I were to think like a new age here? Well, it says we're made in the image of God. Well, what does that mean then,

58:49

Stephen? Yeah. So there's two ways theologians primarily will deal with what it means to be made in the image of God.

58:55

Genesis 1 26, let us make man in our image and after our likeness. For one, you have personhood to God.

59:03

So if you can grant personhood, the personhood of God in speaking those words in Genesis 1 26 and also a plurality within the

59:11

Godhead. So if you can, I'll answer your question as long as you consent to a tripersonal

59:18

Trinitarian Godhead. Right, right, right. So we'll start with that premise that it necessitates that.

59:24

But in terms of what it means to bear the image of God, some will say, well, it means that just like God is a rational being who ascertains laws of non -contradiction and laws of the excluded middle, laws of logic, we're made into rational, logical beings.

59:46

Just as God is built for relationship in the sense that he has had union and community within himself eternally, we're built for fellowship and communion as well.

59:57

God is an emotional being. We're emotional beings. God's personal and has first person mental states and freedom of the will.

01:00:05

And the same is true of us. And so God, you know, we can be made in his image in the sense that, you know, philosophically speaking, we're both, we're persons.

01:00:15

God's a person. He made us as persons. He has all the necessary and sufficient conditions for personhood.

01:00:21

We have all the necessary and sufficient conditions for personhood. There's a secondary meaning people will take, which

01:00:27

Mike Heiser takes the secondary one, which is that it's referring to an allocation of status and role, not ontology, but status and role.

01:00:37

So in the sense that, you know, God has dominion over everything in creation and rules over everything in creation and is sovereign.

01:00:45

He made man in his image in the sense that I want man to have dominion - Rule and subdue the earth.

01:00:51

Yes, subdue the earth and have a kind of position of authority over the animals and the plants and the animal kingdom and so forth.

01:00:58

So it's a reference to status, not ontology, like economy, role, right?

01:01:04

Within the created order. And those would be two primary ways theologians understand what it means to be made in the image of God.

01:01:12

Yeah. I think that's good because I think if the new age is trying to be consistent, if they're trying to understand the image of God, to them, it really means just no, it means the dissolving of the ego.

01:01:24

So they can't explain what it means to love, what it means to, you know, try to reflect the character of God in any sense at all.

01:01:32

It's just a sense of being enough of nothingness, almost in a sense, they have really no explanation whatsoever. No. So why do we have cravings for purpose, for meaning, for feeling loved, for feeling secure, for feeling like we have an identity, for feeling accepted?

01:01:51

This craving for like creativity and self -expression. This is all, these are all like accidents.

01:01:59

These should not be there and ought not be there. And if you're still struggling with this, it's because you're operating in ignorance of your true self.

01:02:05

And one more quick verse would be cool here. I like this one in terms of like separation between God and creation.

01:02:13

Who is like the Lord, our God, who is seated on high, who looks far down on the heavens and the earth?

01:02:20

Psalm 113 verses three to six, he looks far down. You don't have to look. There would be no looking if you were that which you are perceiving and you're everywhere in the sense that you exist within all things.

01:02:34

There would be no like transmission of sight. You transmit your sight two inches and you're still seeing yourself.

01:02:41

Yourself is everywhere. There's only one self. Right. It's about how much greater he is than it is. Well, like even with the

01:02:46

Tower of Babel, when the humans were constructing the Tower of Babel, it says God had to look down to see the tower, right?

01:02:53

Showing how great and amazing he is. Amen. So that would be a refutation of pantheism, biblically speaking.

01:03:00

And so the worldview out of which Christ consciousness emanates is antithetical to the biblical worldview.

01:03:07

Very easily handled with a series of proof texts. Yeah. And ultimately, a lot of times their philosophy and their worldview is going to collapse on themselves.

01:03:15

It's eventually going to collapse on itself. A lot of times you just have to just let them speak and you'll see their inconsistencies.

01:03:23

But one other thing I want to bring out, we were talking about this last night, and this relates to, is

01:03:29

God all just complete one pantheistic? And if all is God, all is self, versus is

01:03:36

God's distinct from creation? Then, because you talked about how a lot of times, you know, new agers are looking for love and acceptance.

01:03:44

So the Bible says God is love, right? So you probably know where I'm going with this. So in order for, and also philosophically,

01:03:50

I would say that in order to, in order to actually love, that requires an object from myself and required for me as an act of the will to, to advocate that towards someone outside of myself.

01:04:05

How does that work? Like how's the new age even define love, but how does it even coherently make sense when the individual is really the, from a new age worldview, if I'm trying to love myself as a person,

01:04:20

I'm trying to, you know, advocate, that's an illusion. How do I advocate something from one illusion to another, right?

01:04:31

And when, and ultimately, but do I, is that an illusion or do I have, or do I have to go deeper to you, to this universal consciousness to experience love?

01:04:41

But how do you experience love through something that ultimately isn't personal? So the thing, so the thing of this,

01:04:48

I was just thinking about this verse too, and it talks about in Ephesians and talks about the Holy Spirit. And again, this is where Jehovah's Witnesses fall short too, and they say the

01:04:54

Holy Spirit is an impersonal force. One of the biggest refutations to that is in Ephesians when it says, don't grieve the

01:05:00

Holy Spirit for whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. So the Holy Spirit is someone that has emotions and someone that can be grieved.

01:05:07

And a lot of times, you know, they have a lot of, a lot of people who come in the new age, they've been, you know,

01:05:14

Doreen talked about, they've been through, you know, certain traumas and they're trying to find true healing. You know, one of the things that Walter Martin said when he talked about, you know, he said, help us to have compassion and the love of Christ for these who are reaching out for help, but not from thee, but from the forces of evil.

01:05:29

Like he said, so people are genuinely looking out for help, but they're being, they're being, it's the forces of evil that are, that are deceiving them in that regard.

01:05:39

But how do we, how do we address that? How do we explain the concept? So when the new age brings love, how do they define it?

01:05:45

And I kind of gave some examples of the inconsistencies. How do we address that? Well, they would want to say that love is a property of this field of consciousness and that love is foundational to the universe and that love is everywhere.

01:05:59

Love is infused in all things. It's like love is somehow intertwined into the super string field as though it's like an energy.

01:06:08

But love, the word love, apart from distinction and otherness, makes no sense.

01:06:18

It's completely incoherent. You can't call that energy love when love, as Jerry Breitler said, it refers to a, there needs to be a bestowing of compassion, a bestowing of concern for the welfare, a bestowing of enjoyment and delight in something distinct from the one or the thing doing the loving.

01:06:44

Right. It requires distinction and separation by definition. And I actually think that's also a good argument for Trinitarian theology.

01:06:53

In what sense does God love if there's one person that has existed?

01:06:58

Amen, dude. Amen. Right. So I really don't think that there is any way we can make sense of the universe being love and everything just being made of love as though love can exist if all that this universe is, is one impersonal being experiencing itself.

01:07:16

There is no distinction. There is no separateness. There is no otherness. And yeah,

01:07:22

I don't think you can have a philosophically coherent understanding of love in a worldview where otherness is precluded and prohibited.

01:07:31

You think about this, I mean, I just, you know, we've had this series in Charles Manson where we're kind of talking about the Beatles and the influence they had on the culture too.

01:07:38

And so when you think about, you know, defining love in that regard, think culturally. So you think about the

01:07:44

Beatles song, All You Need Is Love. I was just thinking about that. And imagine if that's, if that's literally all what we need, all you need is love.

01:07:52

Well, if I'm trying to find true meaning, but if love ultimately is just something that's impersonal, you can't, it's not based, you know, individually.

01:08:01

It's not from any outside source. It's just this impersonal consciousness. Like how do you, where do you even grab that?

01:08:07

Where is that tangible? Like even in a worldview. So you think about, so just think about this and give me your comments on this.

01:08:13

I just want to throw this idea out there because you think about, they're saying all you need is love, right?

01:08:18

But then think about one of the popular members of the Beatles, John Lennon, and just think about the lyrics of this worldview.

01:08:25

How do, how do you find love in this worldview? So here's the first part of the lyrics of Imagine. Imagine there's no heaven.

01:08:31

It's easy if you try. No hell below us, above us only sky. And he says, imagine all the people just living for today.

01:08:41

Imagine there's no countries. It isn't hard to do, nothing to kill or die for, and no religion too.

01:08:47

Imagine all the people living life in peace. So just those that like the first two stanzas of those lyrics, like how do you, how do you even mess those two together?

01:08:56

Yeah. Give me your thoughts on that. Yeah. I think, I think the worldview in itself is a glass cannon. You know, the, the love is not the love defined by the

01:09:03

Bible. Um, it's something that cannot be obtained. They searched their whole life trying to obtain it through asceticism and self abasement and severity to the body.

01:09:14

Like we started about yoga or specific diets. Look at people that do these things for years upon years, they end up looking almost like skeletons, right?

01:09:23

Death is something unavoidable. So I think in terms of what John Lennon is speaking about is almost like the neophyte new age person.

01:09:32

Um, I think the person who would be more heavily involved would say, John Lennon, you've got it all wrong, buddy. Yeah. Um, he would have to say, imagine a world where we recognize we're all one, like appealing to sort of like a nihilistic framework and a relativistic framework, which

01:09:47

John Lennon is doing essentially. That is maybe like the first step in the stage of awakening to higher consciousness.

01:09:56

Imagine if the song had no purpose. But you, but then a second, the second stage would be realizing that the song itself and his desire to write the song is itself just another form passing through consciousness.

01:10:10

It's just another manifestation of the ego. And it's just another object within his personal mind, which is plugged in to the universal mind.

01:10:23

And realizing that, you know, the real answer here, John, is not eliminating religion, the real answer would be transcendental meditation to access higher consciousness.

01:10:33

And so through things like meditation, mindfulness, this is how we dissolve ego consciousness. This is how we shift our consciousness away from this incessant stream of thinking and identification with the thinking and practice being the observer of our thoughts.

01:10:51

So our consciousness becomes to be aware of itself as consciousness, right?

01:10:56

Aware of itself as awareness, instead of aware of itself as a personal, individuated self.

01:11:03

And if we can, you know, observe the contents of our minds without judging them, without identifying to them, we will peel our awareness away from ego consciousness, and it'll slowly start to tap into that deeper dimension of pure awareness, or pure consciousness, right?

01:11:18

And this consciousness that we start to tap into, that's not personal to us. It's not being created by the brain.

01:11:24

It's just facilitated by the brain. It is the universal consciousness, right? And so when we achieve a graduation from awareness of oneself as ego, as personal identity, to awareness of oneself as the universal consciousness, the self with the capital

01:11:45

S, which they would call God, the divine Brahman, that is the moment in which we can have been said to have accessed

01:11:54

God consciousness, or discovered God consciousness, right? And this is what enlightenment is.

01:12:01

So this is what enlightenment is. It's discovering the true nature of reality. Once you have awakened out of the ignorance of ego, individuated consciousness, to the realization that I'm ultimately this universal consciousness, everything is this universal consciousness, we're already

01:12:21

God, whether we realize it or not, the only thing keeping us separated is self ignorance, and we want to exhibit this consciousness, this

01:12:30

God consciousness, this universal consciousness in our lives. And when we do so, when we discover, it's not so much that you're striving, because striving implies separation from you and that which where you're going.

01:12:43

Right. But we more so a discovery and I realize that it's a shift in consciousness.

01:12:49

Yeah. Okay. So you have this shift in awareness, shift in consciousness from thinking to presence. And that's when you go into access higher states and exhibit

01:12:57

God consciousness. You know what it makes me think of the reason why I said like glass cannon, in a sense, is it can only last for so long.

01:13:03

It's an exercise of escapism, right? It's trying to escape all things. I think a lot of it is, man. Yeah. It's like, it's like saying, well, you know, your problem isn't everything that's going on around you.

01:13:12

It's your problem is the fact that you're not acknowledging that those things don't exist. Right. Yeah. So your whole life you're forced in a sense, if you hold to this worldview to try to never deal with your problems.

01:13:24

Right. It's escapism. It's escapism. Buddha, Buddha did that. Buddha, his wife was pregnant and giving birth to his first son.

01:13:32

And he left her in the bed and peeled off and went away. I think for 15 years, he just walked into the forest and just stared at his reflection in the water for 15 years.

01:13:42

And he was, he was a deadbeat dad by definition. But I do think a lot of people in the new age, they're trauma survivors.

01:13:48

And if they can hear that, you know, the emotions and the thoughts you're experiencing, it's all transient.

01:13:55

And you can access deeper levels of awareness where there's like intrinsic peace and spaciousness.

01:14:01

You can create some separation between yourself and that, which you're experiencing. And, but at the same time, you start alienating yourself from a healthy relationship to your own conscience in the process.

01:14:13

And you start searing your conscience. And that's actually what happened with me. There's always a scapegoat, right? Like we cannot escape that we live in God's world.

01:14:20

So there has to be a sacrifice. You're either going to sacrifice yourself and your own body in this form of escapism. And what

01:14:26

I find is interesting is that there's like an oxymoron that takes place in this escapism to try to detach yourself from all things.

01:14:36

Ego, right? Right. Well, the sad thing is, is they don't realize is that has material and physical consequences to the other people around you.

01:14:46

So you're never selfless. Actually, in this sense, you're probably more selfish than you have ever been. That's right.

01:14:52

It is a pursuit of self -actualization and self -discovery at the expense of loving your neighbor, at the expense of stepping up to the plate and being a good husband.

01:15:04

But here's the thing is you actually find fulfillment in loving your neighbor as yourself and laying down your life for your wife and, you know, being a leader in your household.

01:15:14

And, um, I mean, I'm a complimentarian, but that's neither here nor there. Well, but you're right.

01:15:21

There's no greater love than this. The one who lays down his life for his friends. Amen. And there's like this, there's this understanding that, you know, like my soul feels affirmed.

01:15:31

My self -esteem is built up and my conscience becomes remedied and sued, sued.

01:15:39

The more and more I coincidentally or intentionally apply the revealed law of God to my life.

01:15:46

Right. And so people are looking for enlightenment. I would say the law of God enlightens the eyes. Yes. Envy rots the bones.

01:15:54

Whoever commits adultery destroys his own soul. But you have this, the fear of the Lord is a fountain of life.

01:16:01

Yes. Right. And so obviously Jesus Christ, all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge are hidden in him and whoever believes in him out of his belly will flow rivers of living water.

01:16:10

And Jesus is the prize. You know, he is enlightenment in one sense, to have our eyes enlightened,

01:16:18

Ephesians 1 .18, right. To behold the beauties and the treasures that are in Jesus, the person, that is biblical enlightenment, if we could ever say something like that.

01:16:28

Right, right. But in terms of the law itself, offering people the fulfillment they're looking for, in terms of going off and meditating in a forest for three years, what if you actually like bore the burdens of your wife with her and, you know, encouraged her?

01:16:45

Like, don't you think you would find fulfillment in that? And like go into your children's baseball games and like, it's this complete, you're alienated from like normal human functioning and it's encouraged.

01:16:59

You're killing me bro, because what you're making me think of is the terms of ontology in itself, right? So the word, so, so self thinking about it, what humans are, are defined and created by God, right?

01:17:10

So if we are actually living out his law, we will take fulfillment in it because guess what?

01:17:16

We're created to do that. Amen. We're actually being who we were. Right. Right.

01:17:21

But that's right. But sin is the issue. That's right. And sin is the separation. So in terms of anything that's without God, without Christ, all these other searches for self in any other way is not self, it's self -ish.

01:17:35

It's only a shadow of the true reason of why we're made in forms of our ontology. Like you said, if we're actually living it out through the love of Jesus Christ, you will get no more fulfillment.

01:17:46

Amen. I would encourage people to read Ecclesiastes, you know, Solomon calls everything like this chasing after the wind.

01:17:52

Yes. And he says the whole duty and purpose of man is fulfilled in fearing God and keeping his commandments.

01:17:59

And, you know, they're intrinsically good. Even when an unbeliever applies the law of God to their lives, these are, they're self verifying truths and principles.

01:18:07

They keep our soul from destruction and keep our soul in a certain degree of wellness. And psychology is, even like modern psychological studies, the alleviation of stress that comes from telling the truth and just in confession.

01:18:21

Here we go. Yeah. In confession. Yes. Just being a real human being, right? But people instead, they want to try and bypass all that.

01:18:30

And rather than, I'm sorry, I don't want to be mean or offensive to people, but rather than like apologizing and owning up like,

01:18:36

Hey, you know, I was not a good father to you. I was not a good mother to you. You know, I'm really sorry that I committed adultery on you.

01:18:43

Actually finding healing in their soul through grieving their tears and confession repentance.

01:18:49

They're going to go try and self medicate and self soothe through altered states of altered states of consciousness.

01:18:57

Yeah. And this is really what, this is where Jesus Christ didn't have to self soothe or self medicate.

01:19:04

New Agers wouldn't teach that. We end up using this process of searching for higher consciousness as a means of self medication.

01:19:10

I know I did and deflection and distraction, but Jesus happened to do this in search of the highest possible truth, right?

01:19:20

He wanted the true nature of reality. Like, who am I? Why am I here? I want to figure out what's going on.

01:19:25

And so he started as a man like you and I, who ontologically he's God by nature, but that's nothing special about him.

01:19:32

He's the word made flesh. We're the word made flesh. Right. Everyone's the word made flesh. And he is someone who went through this process of dissolving ego consciousness over time, discovering that God is all, all is

01:19:47

God, right? Leaving the trap and the prison and the boundary of ego, individual personal consciousness and realizing, wow, everything is

01:19:55

Brahman. Everything's God. Everything is universal consciousness, including me. And here

01:20:00

I am now, and I can now impart this path to other people. And so here's what Deepak Chopra says about this.

01:20:07

In Eastern, and this is where it starts to sound, to Christians, this is going to sound blasphemous, but to me in the new age, this was music to my ears.

01:20:16

In Eastern philosophical, this is a Q &A he did with Time Magazine. In Eastern, and we can provide the primary quotations too.

01:20:22

We'll find a way to give people who are listening or watching a way to access all these primary quotes that we're about to read.

01:20:28

I want to make sure people can have the page number and so forth. In Eastern philosophical systems, there's an established idea of a path through personal consciousness to a collective conscience, to a universal conscience, which people call the divine.

01:20:45

I conclude that Jesus must have experienced this consciousness. In the third

01:20:50

Jesus, Deepak Chopra says this. He has a book called The Third Jesus. The first Jesus is the historical man who is kind of like,

01:20:58

I don't know, an ordinary guy. The second Jesus is the theological Jesus of the

01:21:04

Christian church, the invention of first century Jews. And then there's the third

01:21:09

Jesus. Yeah. The third Jesus is the Jesus of Eastern mysticism, who was the real

01:21:16

Jesus who came to teach us how to access God consciousness. So he says, Jesus taught his followers how to reach

01:21:22

God consciousness. I want to offer the possibility that Jesus was truly, as he proclaimed, a savior.

01:21:29

Not the savior, not the one and only son of God. Rather, Jesus embodied the highest level of enlightenment.

01:21:37

He spent his brief adult life describing it, teaching it, and passing it on to future generations.

01:21:43

Jesus intended to save the world by showing others the path to God consciousness.

01:21:50

He also says this, consciousness is, in the third Jesus, consciousness is universal.

01:21:55

And if there is such a thing as God consciousness, no one can be excluded from it.

01:22:01

By the same token, no one can lay exclusive claim to it either. If Jesus rose to the highest level of enlightenment, why should he be unique in that regard?

01:22:12

So when Jesus exhibited God consciousness, that's when he became the Christ. He started off as Jesus the man, and when he exhibited

01:22:20

God consciousness, that's when he became Christed. Yeah. That's when he became like anointed with God consciousness.

01:22:27

And so we exhibit Christ consciousness, and we achieve Christ consciousness when we live from the state of God consciousness that Jesus of Nazareth did.

01:22:38

So Christ in this, Christ either refers to God consciousness itself. It's a synonym for God, Christ, God consciousness itself, or the one whom embodies

01:22:50

God consciousness. So Jesus became Christ by becoming enlightened. To be enlightened is to be a

01:22:56

Christ or to be Christ. So we can become Christed as well. We can become

01:23:02

Christ through accessing higher consciousness and achieving God consciousness, just as Jesus did through this process of exiting ego, personal consciousness, and realizing ourselves as the universal consciousness.

01:23:18

We need like a counter for how many times we say the word consciousness. Yeah, I know. So I think what we're going to do is that we're going to kind of get more in depth in the next episode, because we have gone a little while, we definitely went an extra innings for the first episode, which is, hey,

01:23:33

I have no problem here. Who knows what's going to happen? Like, you know, we're glad we're seeing you again. We set the stage here.

01:23:39

I know. This is the grand stage. And now we're going to get into the meat and taters. The meat and taters.

01:23:45

So what I want to do, you know, we're talking, we're giving a lot of real good foundation.

01:23:51

But again, I just want to really emphasize that as you take in this information, we'll also blog content on Cultish when we release these episodes, is that you need to really stay committed to the truth, stay attested and convicted as far as, you know, holding to scripture, as far as your grounds, to understanding the difference between the

01:24:14

New Age of what their claims versus what the claims to the Bible are. But you need to, again, just understand the

01:24:20

New Ager and where they're coming from as far as seeing them as a person. In the same way, it'd be very easy to take all this information and almost have your own sort of version where you kind of go cage stage a little bit.

01:24:32

You just want to kind of take that sword and slice them to smithereens. But I, in fact,

01:24:37

I just pulled up this quote from your book as we wrap up the episode is, and I forget what chapter this is from.

01:24:43

I remember the very first time I read it. I actually posted this and I tagged you in it and I found this post on my Facebook, but this is really good because this is understands that ultimately the

01:24:54

New Age and you experience this personally, where there's ultimately, there's no, where ultimately you can deal with your brokenness or your sin, because the ultimate point of reference is yourself.

01:25:06

Like there's no one above yourself who to go to, because ultimately the realization is to find out that you are God. But I remember this quote really stuck out to me and I'll just read this as we wrap up here and we go into part two here.

01:25:17

And this is from your book, Second Coming of the New Age. You can get it at Amazon or whatever your local book retailer is.

01:25:24

Definitely check that out. Fantastic book. Third plug, third plug in the show. Might do a couple more in the next one. But it says, it's really stuck out to me.

01:25:33

It says, if you are your own God, you are as good as it gets for you. No one can help you spiritually because no one else is your

01:25:42

God, only you are. Your limited experience on earth is all that you have to guide you through the mysteries of the universe, death and beyond.

01:25:52

You have to figure out how to provide your own afterlife without even knowing what happens after you die.

01:25:59

Choosing to be your own God means that you are worshiping a being who cannot create anything new, cannot save you from death, cannot provide you any answers you already know, cannot tell you what will happen for you, cannot provide a divine meaning or plan for your life, and cannot understand anything about reality outside of a human experience.

01:26:22

In fact, if you are your own God and your God cares so little for you that he or she believes that you deserve nothing better than to worship a flawed and finite

01:26:32

God that will die someday and cannot offer any firsthand perspective on life after death.

01:26:39

Right. So if everything's God by nature, then I become necessarily the functional

01:26:45

God over my own life. That's an idea that actually Josh Peck kind of ran with and wrote. But this idea that I'm God by nature, therefore

01:26:53

I function in my life as the sovereign, and that's a pretty bad sovereign to have.

01:26:59

I can't tell myself anything I don't already know. I'm terribly flawed. In many ways

01:27:04

I could say I'm my worst enemy. No one lies to me more than myself. Right? No one breaks promises more to me than me.

01:27:11

No one gets in my own way more than me, or self -sabotages, gets in the way of what I'm trying to accomplish more than me.

01:27:17

So this idea of, you know, it's a futile God to have, and I would encourage people to appeal to someone who actually has the omni attributes.

01:27:29

Amen. Omniscient, omnibenevolent, omnipotent, all powerful, all good, all knowing.

01:27:34

Not someone who is cognitively, spatially, morally flawed and limited, and who is virtually powerless compared to even the forces of nature, let alone the forces of death.

01:27:49

But yeah, in the next episode, before we close it, I just want to make sure, I really want people to listen to episode two, because episode two, this is perfect that we did this one in episode one where we're grounding everything.

01:28:00

This is like the best foundation we could have laid. Episode two, we're going to tackle Christ consciousness head on.

01:28:06

We're going to look at 10 different quotes defining Christ consciousness. We looked at a few from Deepak Chopra, and we're going to address this idea of Christ consciousness from scripture and two primary proof texts that they most often draw from to try and ground this in a twisting of scriptures.

01:28:25

But yeah, I would encourage people to tune in for that one. Awesome. Awesome. So what we're going to do here is we're going to take, here in the studio, we're going to take about a five minute break and we're going to come back.

01:28:35

But for you, that means you have to wait a week. Sorry, just the way it goes. So when this releases, but I hope you all enjoy this first part of this episode.

01:28:43

And like I said, we're wrapping up the year of the bang and we're pushing through 2020. We're pushing through it.

01:28:50

And yeah, so we're just grateful we pushed through and man, it's good to have you back. That's good to be here.

01:28:55

It's good to be here, man. Awesome. So again, we appreciate you all for listening in. And as always, Cultist cannot continue without your support.

01:29:01

So as always, if you feel led to donate, especially coming up through the end of the year, and we want to push through into 2021, go to the cultistshow .com,

01:29:10

go to the donate tab. You can donate one time or monthly. All right. Thank you all for listening in. We'll talk to you in part two in Cultist, where we talk about Christ consciousness, how to refute it.